Every age tries to figure out where it stands with its craziness and "end times" it seems. Seems we don't want to die and would prefer to "be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye"!
I don't personally believe that anyone can "pre-dict" the future. But trying has become big biz. Some have the need to see themselves as prophets. They don't tend to do it well. Their prophecies tend to fail due to unforeseen circumstances. I believe we all or most all here can recall the days when Franz Joseph Strauss, as potential "Beast" visited AC and made it on to the cover of the PT. Alas...
Arch of Titus in Rome celebrating the his victory over Jerusalem in 70 CE
Revelation is "a Failed prohecy" in the sense that the Romans won the day with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Messiah, neither Jewish nor Jewish Christian returned at the end of three and a half years. Within that time from 70 to 73 when Masada fell, the Romans put an end to any hope of Messianic deliverance.
Nero has often been thought to be "the Beast" and this may be possibly true in the minds of many in the day. "NERO" in Hebrew does spell out as 666. Some translations give 616 as the number of the Beast which translates into the more generic "Anti-Christ" evidently. Either way, it points towards the Caesars of 68 through 72 CE in the two years either side of the destruction of Jerusalem. Nero died in June of '68.
Rev 17:9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
In this prophetic scenerio, the first 5 meaning, Julius Caesar (d. 44 BC), Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero is the 6th and the one that "now is". Galba, who followed after Nero's suicide in '68, lasted just one year into '69 and is the 7th. The "Beast" who once was and now, or not yet, is the 8th and part of the succession of the 7. This can be seen as Vespasian who became Emperor in '71 declared so by his troops as his Son Titus destroyed Jerusalem during his return trip to Rome at Galba's assassination. Testy times those!
To give the times a fuller context, the complete 7 and beyond after the destruction of Jerusalem are
FIVE ARE FALLEN
1.Julius Caesar (d. 44 BC)
2.Augustus
3.Tiberius
4.Caligula
5. Claudius
ONE IS
6. Nero
YET TO COME FOR A SHORT SPACE
7. Galba
(Otho, Vitellius,)
(Vespasian was proclaimed Emperor in December of '69. Otho and Vitellius contested Vespasian's claim to the throne but didn't last but a few months each. The author of Revelation did not consider them players. Vespasian is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" Vespasian is to be the last ruler of Rome, the man of sin, the antichrist who will be destroyed by the Jewish Christ, but it didn't work out that way. )
The 8th that was and is not, yet is...
8. Vespasian
9.Titus
10.Domitian (d. 96 AD).
The Foreign Kings who supported Rome in the Armies against Jerusalem
12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.
And the Romans won. In this way the Prophecy of the Book of Revelation failed to deliver.
14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
It's all fascinating of course. While agnostic at best in my views, I have always been and always will be fascinated with how we try to explain our world and the drama and trauma of political and religious intrigues and the Biblical view of how it all will work out even as it doesn't as we all might have hoped.
Vespasian builds the Colosseum in Rome in '72 and finishes it during the rule of his son, Titus.
(That passing of torches in both politics and religion from Father to Son has always been a perk of the position)
That’s interesting Dennis. I agree with your timeline up to a point; but how do you get that Jerusalem was supposed to win? From my reading of revelation, Jerusalem was supposed to be destroyed (as divine judgment for rejecting a messiah) and Christianity was supposed to survive.
ReplyDeleteAnd the Lamb would call down a heavenly new Jerusalem, remember? Like Galactus summoning his world-ship.
DeleteYeah sure. And the 200 million army in Revelation is a copying error, and the author was drunk when he wrote that everything in the oceans will die. The worse world events get, the more frequent Dennis and similar, will try to calm their own nerves by turning out these anti bible articles. It's their spiritual alcohol.
ReplyDeleteIf Vespasian and Domitian were alive today, it would be assumed that they were Armenian. Anybody know if Armenia was ever part of the Roman Empire?
ReplyDelete808 Revelation often uses hyperbole. It is the nature of apocalyptic lit and prophecy.
ReplyDelete757 The Book was written to predict the Messiah would come in 3.5 years so hang in there. The concept of losing as punishment came after it was obvious it didn't happen
ReplyDeleteI've never seen it counted as consecutive Roman emperors before. Very interesting to read. I'm still for the old ways, though! I agree that the so-called prophets of today are false and couldn't prophesy that midnight will follow 11:59pm. And I know HWA is not popular on Banned. .but I think he got a lot of things right. And I do believe that a third of the Bible is history, a third is law and a third is prophecy..... I believe there are things that Christ will reveal in the near future. But not to dave and flurry and thiel...or others of their ilk. Who knows..maybe it will be to you or Marc! I do believe in miracles! ;)
ReplyDeleteVespasian building the Colosseum in what was supposed to be the End of Days was just like Herbie building the (equally expensive) Auditorium when the world was supposed to be crumbling.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct Dennis, but then there is the concept of "duality" and "type - anti type" overlays.
ReplyDeleteThe historical viewpoint that WCG brought to the Church, including prophetic interpretations from the Books of Daniel and Revelation, make a lot of sense. I am having a little trouble with the time-gap theory from Gen 1:1 to 1:2. But that was speculated on long before HWA.
ReplyDeleteThe quixotic Jewish resistance to Roman rule cost a massive 2,000,000 lives!
ReplyDelete11.42
DeleteThat sounds about right. According to one TV documentary, the famine during the 70 AD Roman siege was so bad that they threw 700,000 corpses off the walls of Jerusalem.
But.....the inspiration of Revelation is from a God who thinks so much "higher" than we do, regards 3500 years as 3.5 days, a 1000 years as a watch in the night. The book hasn't "failed"; it's just not yet fulfilled. And if it's Nero who is the "one is", John must have written the book 68-69 AD or before.
ReplyDeleteGood thinking on the dating, although Nero had such an ugly reputation that there were apparently rumors about that he'd faked his death and would return to power.
DeleteThe duality and type, IMHO, is apologetics to keep it as a useful. It is ever "useful" but was never meant by the author to extend past the time and to whom it was written. This is so for all prophecy. All the soons, shortlys and days far spent in the NT were for them not us.
ReplyDeleteIt would be a fascinating twist if John of Patmos had expected the empire to fall in his time, since the celebrated Trajan would not come to power until 98 or so.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the post Dennis.
ReplyDeleteLike yourself and many others, I have read and lost count of the innumerable explanation’s of the book of Revelation from countless writers over the years.
This is the best and simplest explanation yet of these versus I have read.
Over to you Rabbi Dr Bob Thiel.
It would be interesting to see his take on this commentary of yours.
I don’t doubt we all would be none the wiser listening to ‘his’ expo.
But I don’t doubt he is reading your post and the comments here.
Great post.
"Useful but never meant buy the author to extend past the time to whom it was written"
ReplyDelete"all prophecy . . . for them, not us"
Dennis is really no different from Thiel, Pack, or Flurry. He has no problem telling us what the Bible is and isn't or putting God in a box!
Agreed. His anti COG bias leads him to seek out anti COG doctrine. God's plan will play out as He intended in spite of Dennis' bias opinion and false prophets both in and out of COG.
DeleteBob Thiel basically sticks with the Armstrong script, and uses his own little flourishes to embellish it. I lost all respect for him years ago when in a protracted discussion on another blog, a real historian made mincemeat, point by point, out of the stuff Bob spreads from the so called "True History of the True Church", and rather than go back and correct the errors he has been spreading, he simply continued spewing the Armstrong error as if nothing had ever happened.
ReplyDeleteHWA always oversold "truth" as if it were an exclusive only found at his church. He even modified the language one would normally use for teaching to reflect that. Thiel is not as polished or persuasive as HWA, but he shares the practice of relabeling error as truth that HWA so effectively used in building his following. Recently, we've watched others who use that technique very persuasively and effectively and on a large scale. Bob Thiel is not one of those effective ones.
“Never before understood…”
ReplyDeleteYeah you got that right. It’s really simple actually if you just watch what’s happened on the earth since the end of WWII. The seven heads of Rev 13:1 are the G7, formed in 1971. The ten horns are the ten divisions of the earth by the Club of Rome just after the war ended. The USA/NATO is the military force of the King of the North. I’m putting my money on Trump as this King but that is to be determined.
The Russia/China blocks are the Kings from the East (BRICS).
Iran is most likely the King of the South, which is to be liquidated soon by the King of the North.
All of these roads are leading directly to Armageddon.
As far as Rev 17 goes, I have no idea.
Could you explain when the ressurections of Revelation took place? I would like to look that up in the history books.
ReplyDeleteAnon, Friday, September 9, 2022 at 7:45:00 PM PDT, said:
ReplyDelete"...“Never before understood…”
Yeah you got that right. It’s really simple actually if you just watch what’s happened on the earth since the end of WWII. The seven heads of Rev 13:1Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) are the G7, formed in 1971. The ten horns are the ten divisions of the earth by the Club of Rome just after the war ended. The USA/NATO is the military force of the King of the North. I’m putting my money on Trump as this King but that is to be determined.
The Russia/China blocks are the Kings from the East (BRICS).
Iran is most likely the King of the South, which is to be liquidated soon by the King of the North.
All of these roads are leading directly to Armageddon.
As far as Rev 17 goes, I have no idea..."
******
Revelation 17:7 ¶ And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Based upon these verses the 10 kings, Gog (7th head), cannot exist until after Satan comes out of the bottomless pit (Therefore after the 1,000 years expires), but before it goes into perdition.
Regarding Gog, the 7th head of the beast, you may want to look at Ezekiel 38. For example, here are 2 verses:
Ezekiel 38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
The 1,000 years is supposed to be some kind of a human utopia, mostly because Satan is exiled to some bottomless pit. Verse 11 explains about people dwelling safely...something not true for the past approximately 6,000 years so far, but Satan comes out of the pit to destroy that safety and deceive the entire world again.
Satan (I John 3:8 first 8 words) will also be the cause of the "evil thought" of Verse 10, because that thing will be loosed from that pit and go do what it does best...spreads his evil fruits/works all over the world.
To be con't
John
FWIIW, the old "Beast Chart" is flawed.
ReplyDeleteAlso, FWIIW, the 7 heads of Revelation 17:10 are:
7th head = Gog = the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
6th head = Rome = one is: the one that existed in John's day and age
5th head = Greco-Macedonian
4th head = Medeo-Persion
3rd head = Babylonian-Chaldean
2nd head = Would you like to guess?
1st head = Would you like to guess?
John
And if you don't care to guess:
2nd head = Assyria
1st head = Egypt, which held Israel captive for about 400 years...
And, as usual, time will tell...
John