From a reader:
The good old boys network at COGWA is still alive and well. Doug Horchak, who was Ministerial Services Operation Manager, has been given the international position that Leon Walker had, leaving his position open. Yesterday, the announcement was made that all the "administration" in Texas agreed the Dave Myers was the perfect replacement. I guess Dave just got an "atta boy" endorsement for calling about Aaron and Mary Henderson on social media for calling him out on social media. I was reminded of one of the things in the COGWA bylaws that made my blood boil at the time and still does (because it was read during the announcements). Anyone serving as an operations manager must have (pg 18 of the attached bylaws):
The least amount of time that I saw was 15 years (for the president). What is truly astonishing about this and seems to be lost on everyone in TX is that Jesus and the 12 apostles would be not eligible to fill any of their administrative positions. There is something really wrong with that.
A recap of the Facebook reaming that Dave Myers got earlier this year:
He posted:
Any time a pastor has to ask a person not to fellowship with the flock due to such things as doctrinal disagreement, causing division, derogatory accusations, or the like, it is a sad and heartrending time for that pastor (and many others). He hopes and prays with all his heart that the person will come to see themselves accurately and be able to change their way. His action is done out of love to spur the person to deeply examine themselves and help them to change. The mantle of shepherding in these instances is quite heavy and frankly, unpleasant. If the person does not accept this loving correction, sadly, social media provides a platform for the supposed 'offended' to tell their story widely - from their perspective - which is usually found to be quite 'slanted' and often just plain inaccurate. Good-hearted people can read these 'posts-of-the-offended' and be misled as to what actually went on. Some might think, "If their post doesn't reflect what really has happened, the pastor would defend his action by posting the truth, wouldn't he?" But consider this: I, for one, am thankful that the 'church' does not post its 'side' of the story revealing all the details as to why this painful action has had to be taken. Love and respect for the person being 'disciplined' means that the 'church' would not reveal their personal problems or lay out all the ugly details that led to this necessary action. We all know that the scripture teaches "Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins" (Proverbs 10:12) and "He who covers a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates friends" (Proverbs 17:9). So you will not read the pastor's 'rebuttal' because he loves the person and does not wish to 'air their dirty laundry.' So, a pastor does not post on social media, but rather, prays that the 'offended' comes to his senses and is able to repent. I hope this small window into the shepherd's mantle of responsibility is helpful.
After the usual kissing of loyal members, the negative reactions were swift so much so that he shut downtime conversation. After all, how dare ANYONE ever question the actions of a minister!
This is what we previously wrote about the story:
A Response to Dave Myers - Take it to the presbyteros or take it to the ekklesia?
God hates Division - The couple Dave Myers is upset about
How God Moved Us Out Of The Church (COGWA)
COGWA's Dave Myers Talks About How Heavy His Shepherds Mantle Is When He Has To Disfellowship Members And Then Watch Them Get On Social Media And Tell THEIR Side Of The Story.
Some of those reactions to Dave Myers post above (with names deleted)
I can’t imagine how hard it must be.
I have seen this heavy responsibility on our pastors many years ago when I witnessed the attacks on a minister who had to put someone out. The people verbally attacking the minister had absolutely no idea of the gravity of the situation.
Try doing what Christ said to do in Matthew 18. The authority to remove does not lie with you but with the congregation. It is way past time that we quit ignoring the scriptural admonitions in favor of our traditions.
there are a lot of people that would like to cast the first stone! So are you sure you would want the whole congregation knowing everything about you?
Are you sure that you would like to ignore the admonition of Christ as to how to handle sin?
I am trying! Be aware the snare of the righteous!
You are trying to ignore the admonition of Christ? Tell me where in the scriptures you picked up this pearl of "wisdom?"
"Be aware the snare of the righteous!"
People who know and understand the path to regaining a brother who is sinning are much less likely to do those things that would cause Matthew 18 to be invoked. Failure to use that procedure creates the problems that we have experienced in the Churches where "headquarters" people ride into congregations, shoot the place up figuratively, leave the brethren bleeding, and the ride off into the sunset in their own righteousness. It is way past time that we started doing what Christ said to do instead of leaning on tradition.
the snare of righteousness would be the leaven of the Pharisees. Thinking they are righteous when indeed they were not. We shouldn’t divide over doctrinal issues but focus on the main thing which is Christ in us and loving one another. The enemy loves to divide us over the twigs on the branches and get our eyes off the trunk who is Christ. Focus the congregation on Christ rather than doctrine and the enemy won’t be able to cause division
Might have been Paul! Regardless what if it is there and you are ignoring it? If you think you are something when you are nothing then you receive yourself! In 1st or 2nd john
We agree but this string was about the problems with removing someone from the congregation by a pastor who then is limited in a public response. There is no doubt that these problems exist. The problems have been further compounded by the leadership of the Church taking to themselves authority that was not granted to them but to the Church/congregation. Had David Myers made sure that Matt 18 was the process, the publicity would have been on the one sinning for not repenting, i.e., they refused to repent and so step three brought the publicity. Then the congregation does not have to wonder whether the one removed was wronged by the pastor. The congregation itself would have put the person out.
Find it for us since you "quoted" it. Yes, if anyone thinks that they are something they have forgotten to look into that spiritual mirror and don't realize who they are. However, none of this helps the situation described by David Myers above. The solution is to follow what Christ said because HE knows best--and you don't.
I wholeheartedly agree with you!! I was born and raised in the church and have never witnessed the ministry (or the members) correctly following the Matthew 18 protocol for handling disagreements within the congregation as Scripture lays out.
Steps are: 1) go to your brother one on one to try to discuss. 2) if that doesn't work, bring in a few witnesses 3) if that doesn't work, take it to the ekklisia, the congregation (not the ministry!) in hopes for reconciliation! (Not condemning!) If it can still not be reconciled, the person causing the issue is to then be removed and treated as a non-believer (yes, even the minister, if he is the one at fault!)
Problem is, the ministry thinks they are the sole authority above all other members and are above this instruction found in Scripture. As you said, Royce, if someone truly did need to be removed, they should have gone through ALL 3 steps FIRST, and if it ended up needing to go to that last step, it would have allowed BOTH parties to share their side before the whole congregation, so there wouldn't be any question of what was going on, nor would there be any secrets for rumors or gossip to spread, because the brethren would know what was going on.
It would also allow the ENTIRE congregation to support and pray for the situation, not just the minister in secret, creating a higher chance for redemption for the person in question. It was never the responsibility of the ministry to make these decisions alone.
And the ministry themselves should never be exempt from the process when they're the one in a disagreement with one of their members. If a minister and one of his members have an issue, that minister needs to go through the 3 steps as well, and if it makes it to step 3, that minster should be held accountable by the brethren. But we just don't see that happening in the COG's, and it's quite concerning. It needs to change. I am with you, brother!
Nothing says the witnesses are mediators. They are witnesses that the offended brought the problem to the offender and whether or not the offender repented...nothing more is said by Christ. We need to be careful not to add to His words.
thanks for pointing that out!
need to be careful and listen to his words! I don't see a whole lot of mercy these days! If you can judge and show mercy , love at the same time I say well done.
Actually, what you speak of doesn’t have anything to do with expulsion. Matthew’s text is about offense and the translations defer on what going to the church actually means. What this relates to is more like 1 Cor 5. It involves taking the other brethren with you on the path of dissension.
you need to reread the third step in light of the outcome should the sending party refuse to repent. All Church matters where there is a problem between two individuals should be dealt with as a Matthew 18 procedure. Matthew 18 says, simply stated, if your brother commits an offense against you go in privately and try to work it out. This makes certain that both sides of the problem have their minds right. If one doesn't have their mind right that's when you need to bring in witnesses to see what's going on. It doesn't matter what the problem is, it should be dealt with in this simple way. The final step is a shunning or putting out. That should be the last resort and only made by a congregation, not somebody who thinks they're an authority over other people instead of a servant to the flock. This is not to cast any aspersion on Dave Myers or any other minister. It is the point out a problem and how people who live in the church set things up. And, people all too easily I will only turn over their responsibilities for someone else to do. That's how we got in this situation to begin with. They want somebody else to fix the problem instead of stepping up to the plate and going to their brother and working the problem out. Anyway I don't want to get sidetracked, but we don't need people ruling over us and taking authority into their hands that should be ours and that we should handle. Paul even wrote about some of the brother who are taking matters to court rather than deal with it internally. This internal dealing with problems is the very Matthew 18 procedure that Christ gave us. This is the procedure we ought to be using when we have problems in the congregation, not dumping our responsibilities onto a pastor or any other minister.
How truly sad and difficult!
That's why we are to pray for you. God's support for the ministry is something that none of us can do without.
A pastor consults with several other parties and gets advice and is a group decision and not just the decision of one pastor alone.
Being a pastor has to be one of the most toughest jobs you'll ever love. Praying for you Mr Myers.
Thank you Mr Myers our prayers are with you.
Well lately it's been the ministry who has split the flock and sowed discorce. They have also stepped outside doctrine and made decisions about people's individual choices and made them feel guilty for their own lives.
Rightly so. Members have no power but only those who have access to the pulpit sowing division and creating new organizations. I have witnessed such a heartbreaking incident in 2010 when some elders lambasted ministers whom they claimed as dissidents.
Yes. Making decisions of what we can do on our own time is not okay. I don't mean sinful behavior, I mean the things we are led to do by the Holy Spirit.
Some are corrected for doing GOOD. Bible Studies in the home, you name it.
If we only had Adonai's eyes!! Things are so much bigger than an organization.
Things are really happening. We cannot stand in the way of people's spiritual gifts and Purposes in Him.
I know a handful of loving humble people that were told NOT to do beautiful Spirit led things.
and no, they weren't gossiping about it.
That’s one of the biggest drawbacks in a monolithic organization.
Monolithic is one exhibiting or characterized by often rigidly fixed uniformity. The council in Sanhedrin is an ideal example. They were not concern about preaching the Truth ( for they crucified the TRUTH)and unconcerned about people’s salvation. In verse 48, of John 11, “ If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place (position) and our nation."
Their fundamental concerns are control and their position.
The church as a carnal organization has made a lot of mistakes throughout the years. The Church of God is a spiritual organization led by Jesus Christ our savior. I am 100 percent subject to his authority. I cannot always agree with the decisions made from the pulpit when it goes against my moral values, which are biblically based on the teachings of Christ. You can only have one master either Christ or moral man. I choose Christ!
I amin agreement
Crystal clear and very well stated.
Frankly, none of us know what happened. Both sides of an issues have always disturbed the COG community. I can be sorry for both sides if this issue, without “taking sides” in the debate. Let it go people…
Our entire society is infected by a spiritual virus that has invaded the Church of God. That is "no one is going to tell me what to do." We in the Churches of God need to be correctable. And that's biblical.
yes, we all need to be humble and teachable...members and ministry alike.
So so very true.
We must remember or understand that God's Church is not a democracy. God's Church is lead from the top - God the Father, Jesus Christ down...not from the bottom up. There could be some matters that should be brought to the attention of the members...and there are other issues that should not. That is a prayerful judgement call by the ordained ministry. We individually need to make sure that we are working our OUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling.
Matthew 23, “Then Jesus said to the multitudes and to His disciples,…. Dropping down to verse 8, “But you are not to be called rabbi (teacher), for you have one Teacher and you are all BRETHREN .”
Then, verses 10-11, “10 And you must not be called masters (leaders), for you have one Master (Leader), the Christ.
11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant.”
It’s in the same chapter whereupon Christ pronounced the 7 woes against the so called religious leaders in Israel.
What about the instructions for how to deal with issues within the church found in Matthew 18:15-17 :
“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin against you, go and show him his fault — but privately, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. If he doesn’t listen, take one or two others with you so that every accusation can be supported by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to hear them, tell the congregation (not the ministry); and if he refuses to listen even to the congregation, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax-collector."
You are in my prayers and for our church.
Mary Henderson
Would you please speak openly and use our names? It's me and my husband Aaron Henderson. Thank you for sharing this and making the conversation bigger. We love you all.
I love you so much!!!!
Will pray about this situation
I have no idea what this post is specifically about.However....
Brothers and Sisters,
Our Abba wants a rising of Holy Soldiers...
This is so much bigger than organizations..
There are 5 Red hieffers, Abrahamic Family House just opened (Google it all)
Do some Brethren cause discord? Of course. The problem with churches is there are people in it.
What I do know is there have been Spirit LED Brethren over the years that aren't "allowed" to do many things. Bible study at home, have family retreats and humbly discuss things that aren't in a COG booklet.
In SOME ministers and Congregations there is a spirit of control. (Not speaking of this one as I've not been there for many years)The Holy Spirit doesn't control it guides.
The Holy Spirit has been guiding many brethren and it doesn't always fit into the COG rules but it doesn't mean Adonai is not the one that leads and guides them.
Interestingly, sometimes we as humans can inadvertently squash the Spiritual Gifts and God led Purposes of individuals...and it makes the job of THE ENEMY a lot easier.
When you must choose: Follow the gentle guide of the Holy Spirit or the control of man, always choose The Lord Almighty!
What if, as in many cases, the pastor is wrong? Does that person get to tell the congregation not to associate with the pastor?
as we have had church splits, we know that we are to prove all things ourselves. Question the teaching and do your personal best to make your decision.
To vilify one human is wrong. The pastor tries to uphold the church teachings and not vilify the one being asked to leave.
I left WCG. I left UCG. We chose our physical leaders. We can have conflicts with our physical leaders. But we each must be able to do the Bible study and pray for each other for proper guidance.
If you feel the pastor is wrong, pray for him. Pray for your personal guidance in dealing with this matter. When the truth is revealed, it will be awkward for someone. Pray that it is not awkward for you.
(My personal experience and mindset. I’m thankful for those that I trust that I can ask for physical guidance as well.)
you didn't need to write all that nonsense. You could've just said you don't know how to answer the question.
to me it’s not nonsense. Thanks anyway for your feedback
answer the questions. If the pastor is wrong, does the person who isn't wrong, get to demand the people shun the pastor?
And why don't you just pray for them instead of shunning them, if it's not the pastor? You know, like you say the congregation would, if the pastor was wrong?
I understand this fully. I have seen both sides. I can say that it is confusing when a person is originally put out. The person usually has a front that is a mask over the issues that caused the decision. Once the person is comfortable, the truth will surface.
I am aware of one example where the person was not honest and I became aware of the whole situation after the decision to remove the member. I can definitely see why that one was not allowed in the congregation. (I can think of several people who would say this refers to them).
It’s never an easy task. I’m sorry for the heartache the whole situation causes. It destroys relationships and makes us question our own choices.
The Bible says that many will fall away. Some people try to take away the faith of others as they go.
So much love! Let's get this issue out there people! Matthew 18 says tell it to the Church! (Before you disfellowship someone).
Ohhhhh NOW I know the individuals David J. Myers is talking about. It doesn't take much. I remember great public venting regarding other couples in sermons and everyone knew who was being criticized.
Brothers and Sisters: Mary Henderson and Aaron Henderson are humble, loving, serving, Spirit LED children of the most high.
Do NOT be deceived children of God.
Pride and Control is alive and well in some authoritative leaders in some congregations/organizations.
Wait, I keep reading the part of not posting on social media IN a post on social media...
Was Matthew 18 used? In lieu of this post I reckon things will now become public. It's sad it has to come to this.
Truly a beautiful Godly couple
I am allergic to Religious Fanaticism!
I won't say anything. Just makes me to want to stay away from religious people including ministers.
Christ said go the extra mile, give your coat, turn the other cheek. Paul said rather be wronged, Peter said take it patiently. EVEN IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE BEEN WRONGED, FACEBOOK IS NOT THE PLACE TO COME AND DISCUSS IT! Which is what I saw this posting to be about! Anything else is plain wrong!!!
I’ll add this: if you are on your knees, praying to our Father to inspire and direct the Ministry and the pastors in carrying out their incredibly difficult ministrations, you don’t have the time to point fingers.
Nothing will please the Adversary more than dragging the Church into mini disagreements that keep us from the commission of preaching the gospel, and preparing a people.
May the Father be pleased to save us.
As the end of the age draws closer...more and more of the brethren become easily offended. This is when it is extremely important to draw closer to our Father in prayer and fasting for spiritual discernment. It certainly is not easy for the ministers at this point in time. But ultimately it is the responsibility of each individual to make things right in the eyes of the Lord. Reprimands are necessary for the growth of the body of Christ to prepare us for eternal life. Human nature is our enemy that we must overcome so we can have agape love that draws us closer to our brethren. That's why we are to pray for the brethren everyday. We also must remember that ministers are human too and very capable of making mistakes just as we all are. We should never be quik to judge and condemn...but be ready to love and forgive as our elder Brother taught us to do.
Is it possible that people in Ministry roles will be "more and more easily offended"? I know this couple and they are doing beautiful Spirit led things. Matthew 18 matters.
it certainly is important to have love, patience, and grace towards one another, as well as forgive and not be quick to judge/condemn... and while we know that ALL brethren (ministers and members alike) will fall short, there are times when, as you said, reprimands are necessary, above and beyond just prayers, love, and forgiveness. Members will often seek ministers to help in that regard...but who keeps the ministers accountable when THEY need reprimanding? Oftentimes, the ministry gets final say without the members having a voice. Abuse, neglect, and overlording has been common among the COG ministry for generations. If the members do not have a voice to defend themselves, and the Matt 18 protocol is not being followed as it is suppose to be, then brethren are lost and the abuse continues. There needs to be a way to hold ministers accountable when they cross lines they are not suppose to cross.
anyone can fall into the trap of being easily offended. That's why we are to be on guard against the wiles of our adversary. Not one of us is exempt from this attack. If someone is unjustly accused of something... that's when we fall on our knees in prayer for guidance and understanding. We should remember the example that Christ gave us when He was nailed to the stake after being beaten and accused of wrongs. He prayed for the Father to forgive those who wronged Him. He did this out of love for them. We should be able to do the same for those that have wronged us.
This type of thing has been going on since I can remember. I have seen the COG split several times in the 40 some years I have attended. Prove all things to yourself. After all of the years I have attended, I still have many questions. Belittling ones curiosity is not a way to handle things.
Causing disturbance though is another issue.
There is no "appeal process" in the COGs, or some type of neutral "Supreme Court" that a case can be taken to. In nearly all cases , the ORG will defend the paid minister, even if the torts are high and/or extremely unjust.
ReplyDeleteThere should be an elected oversight appeals system that member/minister problems can be taken too, instead of just a good ole boy mutual protection racket.
It's "Our way or the Highway" and the only choice is to vote with your feet and pocketbook. I also state, for the sake of balance, there are also plenty of times when the lay member is just plain nuts, full of it, or wrongly justifying themselves too. There are plenty of idiots to go around, both in the laity and the ministry.
Laity ha ha! Written with the arrogance of ministry.
DeleteThis is all so sick. From the heresies they mandate members believe to the "rules for thee, but not for me" that is rife in these groups, Hell is going to need a huge addition built to accommodate the influx...not literally, but you get the point.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could even begin to comprehend how people think that the offshoots from WWCG will be any better than the original. HWAs empire of self was destroyed. Why would anyone want to start a new group when, if it had truly been what hWA claimed it was, would still be going strong, membership in the millions by now. The genuine Body of Christ has never been destroyed, so what does it say that WWCG was?
A syncrotism of Judaism/Pseudo Christianity with more than a smattering of corporate America will never be part of the Body of Christ. It cannot be and until one of these rocket scientists understands that, the poor members are stuck with Dave, Gerry, Bob and Ron. They would be so much better off to just leave and study/read their Bibles at home themselves. Nobody, but nobody who realizes we are under the New Covenant (and why) needs any totalitarian minister, fake prophet or apostle "feeding" and "leading" them. Jesus is a perfect Savior and His grace is being trampled underfoot. God help at least some see that.
Who's Dave Myers ?
ReplyDeleteWhy so invested in COGWA NO2HWA? You write how COGWA'S bylaws make your blood boil ?? Too invested in something that's nothing to do with you. You need to go outside and breathe. Too much screen time NO2HWA, not good for the soul.
THE VAST SUPERIORITY (RELATIVELY SPEAKING) OF COGWA
ReplyDeleteThis is supposedly the Laodicea era of the church, so try not to let COGWA's faults discourage and/or destroy you. Of course, this is easier said than done. Some of its leaders and members might want to go to X-mass weekend parties or sit around watching movies full of all the usual nonsense and sins out there.
Nevertheless, here are some of the major advantages of COGWA over some of the other splinter groups:
COGWA is NOT the result of continual fucking around (and I do mean fucking around) like Garner Ted Armstrong's little CGI and even smaller ICG rebel groups.
COGWA is NOT Sunday keeping, ham eating, X-mass observing (Oops! Scratch that last one.) like the apostate Joseph Tkach, Jr.'s wreckage of the WCG which is now called GCI.
COGWA is NOT led by a gospel suppressing, family wrecking, identity stealing, false prophet who edits and changes Herbert W. Armstrong's writings like Gerald Flurry's PCG.
COGWA is NOT led by a doctrinally unstable “common” thief and prediction addicted false prophet like David Pack's RCG.
COGWA is NOT led by a writer of prophetic fantasy fiction books and false witness pretending to be one of the two witnesses in the biblical book of Revelation like Ronald Weinland's COG-PKG.
COGWA is NOT led by a mentally challenged guy trying unsuccessfully to guess the future with the help of television news, Catholic prophecies, pagans, and demons like Bob Thiel's CCG.
COGWA is not led by an arrogant old fool who presumptuously, and wrongly, claimed that God had revealed future presidential election results to him like Alton Billingsley's COG-FF.
COGWA is not led by an arrogant old lawyer who dogmatically guessed wrong about presidential election results and now remembers wrongly what one of the contestants actually said like Norbert Link's COTEG.
COGWA is NOT a totally invisible and vision-less community for spiritually blind people who cannot accomplish anything at all like David Hulme's COG-aIC.
COGWA does NOT come up with major and ridiculous new doctrinal nonsense even to the point of messing with the gospel message just to be different and compete against Herbert W. Armstrong like Roderick Meredith's financially bankrupt GCG or spiritually bankrupt LCG.
COGWA, while currently less than one-tenth of the size of the WCG at its peak, still is NOT as small as the many tiny little sliver groups of the miscellaneous nobodies and division lovers like Norman Edwards, James Malm, etc.
COGWA, hopefully, is NOT as totally godless and malicious as the UCG that it came out of.
Vile mind writing that.
DeleteTonto at 11:16 AM said...“It's 'Our way or the Highway' and the only choice is to vote with your feet and pocketbook. I also state, for the sake of balance, there are also plenty of times when the lay member is just plain nuts, full of it, or wrongly justifying themselves too. There are plenty of idiots to go around, both in the laity and the ministry.”
ReplyDeleteThat is a pretty good summary of the situation. In fact, there are more than enough idiots on the so-called COG scene to go around and around and around. However, the idiots in the so-called “ministry” were still smart enough to have arranged things so that they have more power than the idiots among the lay members.
12:31 wrote: “Who's Dave Myers ?
ReplyDeleteWhy so invested in COGWA NO2HWA? You write how COGWA'S bylaws make your blood boil ?? Too invested in something that's nothing to do with you. You need to go outside and breathe. Too much screen time NO2HWA, not good for the soul.”
Apparently reading comprehension is not your strong point.
Apparently telling the truth is not yours. I have a degree and paid off my mortgage years ago...How's your life whilst wallowing in self pity on here ?
Delete@1:04
ReplyDelete...says Banned's local COGWA memb...er cheerleader who denies the ruthlessness of some it's own leaders, and can't admit that it was founded on fraudulent claims.
Quite simply, if any one or ones are dissatisfied with any church or organization, or feel that they and their "gifts" are not being used properly, just leave. Go find a group or church organization that you identify with. I see and hear all this criticism of various organizations and their by-laws. The criticisms may be or not be valid. But, if you don't approve of a groups leadership leave! Some have expressed dismay and dissatisfaction of not being able to serve,(in the way "they" want to serve, irrespective of the governing body's approval of their "gifts"). If thats the case, take your "gifts" where you feel comfortable. Organizations, whether churches or not, need rules to govern. If you don't like the rules of a church organization, go find one that has rules that you like. Just leave and stop whining.
ReplyDeleteEverytime COGWA is critiqued here the apologist come out of the woodwork.
ReplyDeleteSame few posting all the UCG bitter comments.
DeleteTo Anon @ 1:04. Your comments got me thinking and I put forward the following, respectfully, because I am genuinely curious, believe you to be an honest, decent person who frequently comments here and I am commanded to by the Lord Jesus Himself. So, those caveats listed, may I pose the following for your consideration (and any others who share your opinion/beliefs).
ReplyDelete1. With respect to the sexual exploits of GTA (proven beyond shadow of doubt), shouldn't the very serious allegations against HWA evoke the same response, if not more so, given it was his own daughter with whom he was involved?
2. The "gospel" of HWA was, in fact, not the same gospel preached by Christianity, writ large, for the past 2,000 years. It was a portion of it, but NOT the portion that matters most to believers. The gospel of our salvation of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is. Jesus Himself said unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God. Believing the gospel of our salvation is what opens up the entrance to the Kingdom, so to speak. It is the priority from which the rest of the good news follows. Also, did/do you genuinely believe that the gospel had NOT been preached for 1900 years until HWA came along, as he stated many times?
3. While I totally agree with you that Flurry, Pack, Thiel, et al., are all false prophets, what about the over 200 false prophecies given by HWA? They are exceedingly well documented and recorded on tape/writing for anyone to go back and see if he was a genuine prophet or not. The Scripture tells us one wrong prophecy is enough to prove someone a false prophet. HWA had over 200 false prophecies. Would God use a false prophet to preach true doctrines? I don't believe so.
4. While it may or may not be true to say at least COGWA is not run by an arrogant, old lawyer, WCG was run by an arrogant, old salesman, who was anything but humble and teachable. Standards should be applied equally, across the board, to all, otherwise they are not standards. They are opinions and favoritism.
5. WCG was destroyed. If it was what HWA claimed it was, wouldn't it still be standing now? Could one of the reasons the splinters are such a mess be due to the fact that they came from the same root and will also have the same end result?
Please forgive me, I pray I did not offend you. I just hope that readers here and members in these groups can start to see that none of these splinter apples fell far from the tree. A new look at Scripture, minus the HWA/WCG hermeneutical glasses will bring about an entirely different take. Christianity, as it is, not as it was defined by one man with no theological training. Would God allow 1900 years to pass with no one having come up with the teachings of WCG before that? How did no other denomination come up with these same doctrines, given they were all reading the same Book?
I wish you the very best. Thank you in advance if you decide to answer any of my questions, but no worries if you don't!
Ah yes, the compassionate "if you don't like it, leave it" tirade. In the end, leaving probably will be the solution, but first you get to hear people like Anon225 tell you to just leave; he really doesn't like you. Stop bothering him.
ReplyDeleteYour whining gets on his nerves. Just leave. Leave your friends and family. It's your own fault that you started seeing through the false teachings of the COGs! Just leave. We don't like you anymore.
The COGWAs of the world like their social network that has spanned the generations. In fact, COGWA consists of close to 75% COG bluebloods. Of course, the ministry is almost entirely AC grads but better still the ministry is almost all second-generation COG goers. It's all they have known.
Most COGWA attendees are second and third generation and very often the children of aging ministers and elders; it is from that lineage where the newest ministers are drawn. Almost all of the COGWA members are ministers, AC attendees, their children, or married into that select group.
I think it is telling that in COGWA most of the people were the "winners" from within WCG. Would they still be attending if they hadn't gotten a relatively free education or ministerial family privilege and been able to hang with the people they've known for 25-50 years? Maybe, maybe not.
Nevertheless, don't question or point out wrongs, just leave and stop bothering Anon225.
Proverbs 6:16-19
ReplyDeletev16
"These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
"A proud look.... And one who sows discord among brethren".
Sowing Discord is wrong whether one is offended or not. Going public with accusations against brethren is sowing discord. Discord is sin and God hates it. End of Story.
"Anyone can fall into the trap of being easily offended." And it's an attack by the devil if anyone does.
ReplyDeleteHere we go ago. You see, abusive people don't need to repent. Rather it's the victims who need to "repent" by resigning themselves to be door matts and punching bags for the wicked. Evil church members have habits set in stone, so to make relationships "work" and keep church attendance high, it's the malleable responsible who need to be thrown under the bus. There's no need for the wicked to repent.
My first minister, who lorded it over the congregation via verbal violent, complained from the pulpit that Satan was putting negative thoughts into the minds of those he abused. That is, he was asking his victims to suppress the natural negative feelings that come from being abused, effectively giving him self a moral blank check to endlessly sin against others.
Btw, books and articles on criminals point out that they lie to themselves regarding the suffering they inflict on their victims. Hence they accuse their victims of "being too sensitive."
Another 4:32 false assumption:
ReplyDelete"Almost all of the COGWA members are ministers, AC attendees, their children, or married into that select group".
A completely false allegation.
"Btw, books and articles on criminals point out that they lie to themselves regarding the suffering they inflict on their victims. Hence they accuse their victims of "being too sensitive."
ReplyDeleteAn absolutely perfect description of Armstrongism and its ministers! Well done!
Misrepresenting scripture: it's bad, a no-no. As below:
ReplyDelete"Many different people have many different opinions about Herbert W. Armstrong. The only opinion that really matters is God’s! What does God think?
Here is what God says about His end-time servant, who is the spiritual father of the true ministers just before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ: ”My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity” (Malachi 2:5-6)." --Brian Davis, "Accusations Of Incest Against Herbert W Armstrong Are A Satanic Lie", Dec 29, 2022, Royal Vision Magazine.
*******
"And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the Lord of hosts. My covenant was with him......." (Malachi 2:4-part 5)
God refers to Levi. Brian thinks HWA.
So this is what a discussion amongst COGaWA people sounds like? Kind of puerile, isn't it? It's sad that people have to contemplate the actions of a total unnecessary extra level of government that they have voluntarily accepted and to which they have submitted themselves!
ReplyDeleteNote to those quoted members involved in this discussion: Your comments will have absolutely no positive effect or outcome. You are part of a purely imaginary realm! Find something real. I guarantee, it will be a refreshing change! Even being a Trekkie or a Parrot Head would be more fulfilling! If you need a leader, find a better one. Bugs Bunny would be preferable as a leader over any ACOG strawboss!
DW at 4:04 PM,
ReplyDelete1. GTA got caught misbehaving on hidden video camera by massage therapist Sue Ray Robertson. HWA did not get caught. However, after changing the D&R teaching of the church, HWA married a younger divorcee, which ended in divorce about half a dozen years later.
2. HWA taught that the true gospel OF Christ about the coming kingdom of God was quickly suppressed and replaced with a gospel ABOUT Christ. Some splinter groups today, like RCM's LCG, combine the two ideas into a two-fold or hybrid gospel. Traditional “Christianity” also quickly suppressed things like Sabbath observance and replaced it with Sunday keeping.
3. COGWA appears to have learned a very important lesson from all the wrong prophetic guesses of the past. So many other splinter groups have not learned anything at all from them other than to continue to make the same reckless mistakes over and over. Arrogant fools make wrong prophetic guesses over and over while unsuccessfully trying to impress people with their ability to predict the future.
4. HWA was the one that the WCG grew relatively large under. At its peak, about 150,000 people were attending the Feast of Tabernacles. Nobody else seems to be able to grow the church at all nowadays. The splinter groups can only start off by each taking a small part of what HWA had already built up and then messing up and dividing their little piece even further.
5. The WCG, Incorporated was destroyed openly in 1995 by the apostate Joseph W. Tkach, Sr. The true Church of God, a spiritual organism was to carry on.
If you are looking for a splinter group to follow, COGWA is NOT perfect, but there ARE much worse splinter groups out there.
LOL!!!…the cogwa members coming on here thinking their s**t don’t stink!
ReplyDeleteDW at 4:04 PM said...“Would God allow 1900 years to pass with no one having come up with the teachings of WCG before that? How did no other denomination come up with these same doctrines, given they were all reading the same Book?”
ReplyDeleteThe Roman Catholic Church and its Protestant daughter churches have always totally mangled the teachings of the Bible. From Sabbath keeping to Sunday keeping. From biblical Holy Day observance to pagan-based X-mass, Easter, Halloween, etc. From clean eating to eating every unclean thing, leading up to the modern push to have people forsake a great steak and go eat bugs instead. From the doctrine of the resurrection to weird ideas about heaven, hell, and even purgatory. From the importance of the family to the theory of the Trinity and a supposedly celibate, but actually sexually active, homosexual pedophile priesthood in the RCC that wants to be called “father.” From worshipping God to worshipping “saints” in the RCC. From calling God “Holy Father” to giving a Man of Sin in Rome that title, even though Jesus specifically said not to do it. The leaders of these false religions simply did not have the Holy Spirit that would have enabled them to understand the Bible.
Herbert W. Armstrong came in the spirit and power of Elijah to “restore all things.”
What strikes me is that Dave Myers now will have roughly the same "headquarters" duties with COGWA as brother Steve Myers does at United - directing Ministerial Services!
ReplyDeleteBut Dave Myers will be moving from Cincinnati to Texas. I believe he was transferred there to be close to the family's ailing mother.
If they both wind up as denominational Presidents.....
It's the ministers and/or top leaders who have almost always done much of the dividing and conquering since the COG began. Very few brethren will listen to the laity (even if they are right and find something in The Bible to prove they are).
ReplyDeleteThe one who finds it (is usually "turned in") to the ministry or HQ. They are then chastised, suspended, marked & disfellowshipped. And never to be heard from again. Usually, the only one that "goes with them" is their family. What choice do they have? The will more than likely never be trusted by anyone.
This article mentions Luke 23:34 "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
ReplyDeleteI've read that this verse doesn't appear in the original manuscripts and was added much later. After all, as Pilate discerned, they murdered Christ out of envy. They knew exactly what they were doing.
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
ReplyDeleteThe problem with todays ministry is that they know exactly what they are doing when the assert their power to abuse. COGWA is good at that though they do it stealthily.
To all the Rogues out there;
ReplyDeleteProverbs 6:16-19
"These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
"A proud look.... And one who sows discord among brethren".
Sowing Discord is wrong whether one is offended or not.
Going public with accusations against brethren (ie. Dave Meyers)is clearly sowing discord.
Discord is sin and God hates it.
End of Story.
It's as if the WCG is the Mother Church, and the splinter groups are their harlot/daughter churches. They may not abide by some Sunday/Easter tradition. But they all have followed in the same basic structures and have false ideas holding on to the outdated practices in Judaism. They have the same prideful attitudes.
ReplyDeleteArmstrongism itself is discord.
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I (50+ yrs. in COG) left WCG in 1995 and UCG in 1997. Since then we have been totally independent in the COG and totally dependent on the Father and Christ. Both Dave and his mentor L.W., both of whom were assigned to our home church in New England for at least 8-9 years, first went to UCG after the 1995 WCG fiasco and then to COGWA after that. Nothing has changed in the greater COG since the 1950s when HWA agreed with Rader to seek IRS non-profit status, thus creating a never-ending hierarchy chain of command which most of the hundreds of offshoots have followed to this day without any question whatsoever. Time is short. I pray about the miserable condition of the church every day, that the Father will wake up these knuckleheads and their congregational followers.
ReplyDeleteOut of a sense of duty, I daily pray for the ministers since they have a profound effect on their members. But I always feel that I'm wasting my time since nothing changes. They keep abusing their flock and feed them spiritual milk rather than meat. When Christ told Peter to "feed my sheep" three times, I don't believe that He was exclusively addressing Pete, but rather all His ministers through out history.
ReplyDeleteKeeping the sheep dumbed down and hiding information from them in order to keep them docile and chained to their church is a trap that many denominations have fallen into.
Putting their comfort before their members salvation is a horrible thing for ministers to do.
Many ministers fancy that their position in the church hierarchy is a type of their position in the coming kingdom, They are in for a rude shock.
Re Tonto's comment, the first post above, there is an appeals process in UCG if he isn't aware. The Lindholm case of 20+ years ago was the first and mine, which concerned marriage outside the church, might have been the second. I don't know if COGWA has anything similar, while LCG is probably autocratic, that is, they make the decisions around there when they feel like it or when the mood strikes them.
ReplyDeleteOur ministers keep blowing it time after time because they are too business-office/corporate allegiance-centered to the point where Scripture takes a backseat to tradition and modern COG protocol. They THINK they are serving Christ by serving the corporate hierarchy when the opposite is true.
Speaking of protocols we got a taste of it during COVID during which our COG ministers bowed to the wishes of the secular authorities (to remain closed and wear masks).
They all think they know what they are doing when in reality they don't.
Good points, 3:06, but if the ministers did feed the members with meat there would be a revolt from those "who can't handle the truth".
ReplyDeleteI used to speak freely in the '80s. Today? If I spoke boldly, they would cast me off a precipice as the Jews did with the Lord.
Why? Because they don't have faith (or knowledge for that matter). And traditional protocol has become their god in place of the Lord.
While many musicians blew their talents and resources on drugs, these ministers whom you pray for blew their talents and resources on another intoxicant (Armstrongism)! Personally, I believe them to be beyond the help that prayer might bring. Their shields are all up, all the time.
ReplyDeleteMore likely they blew their talents and resources on drugs as well as the many musicians.
DeleteAnonymous at 3:06 PM said...“Out of a sense of duty, I daily pray for the ministers since they have a profound effect on their members. But I always feel that I'm wasting my time since nothing changes. They keep abusing their flock and feed them spiritual milk rather than meat.”
ReplyDeleteYes, what a waste of time that was/is/will continue to be! The so-called “ministers” will only get worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
The fact is COGWA was created by one BIG lie that United was going to start preaching Protestant doctrines. NEVER happened and wasn’t going to. So how do all the sheep how followed these liars deal with this fact?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 8:09 PM said...“The fact is COGWA was created by one BIG lie that United was going to start preaching Protestant doctrines. NEVER happened and wasn’t going to. So how do all the sheep how followed these liars deal with this fact?”
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that the UCG already had plenty of godless and malicious liars from early on pretending to be sheep. The fact is that unrepentant, unconverted unbelievers went to the UCG to behave very badly while playing church. Old UCG ministers had already departed from what HWA had taught and now had their own false pet ideas that they were teaching. Godless bums seeking power and status badgered the leadership to credential them as new, fake, UCG “ministers.”
After the big UCG-COGWA church split of 2010, these compromising old ministers, new power-seeking bums pretending to be ministerial material, and fake sheep in the UCG, were all left behind to put up with each other. Now they are very bitter about it and not happy at all.
Hopefully, all the godless, wicked, and malicious people will stay in the UCG and not move on to try to pollute better groups with their presence.
@9:56
ReplyDeleteYou didn't answer 8:09's question, you just used the same tired old words and accusations that you always use.
In regards to bitterness, you are one of, if not THE most bitter COG member that posts on this website. Clearly, either you personally or someone who is close to you was hurt while you attended UCG, but now all you do is broad brush and have become an accuser of the brethren. Bitterness has literally consumed you.
I’ve been a member of United since it beginning. Your description of how Godless and sinful the members were or are is totally untrue. That makes you a big liar just as were the “leaders” creating another splinter group just to enrich themselves.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 12:37 PM said...“In regards to bitterness, you are one of, if not THE most bitter COG member that posts on this website. Clearly, either you personally or someone who is close to you was hurt while you attended UCG, but now all you do is broad brush and have become an accuser of the brethren. Bitterness has literally consumed you.”
ReplyDeleteNot yet consumed by bitterness, but almost consumed by numerous false church brethren/sisters, false deacons/deaconesses, false elders, false ministers, false prophets, false witnesses, and false apostles.
Not an accuser of the brethren. The fake brethren that I criticize are not true brethren.
The fake splinter groups that I criticize are not true splinter groups.
Anonymous at 8:09 PM said...“The fact is COGWA was created by one BIG lie that United was going to start preaching Protestant doctrines. NEVER happened and wasn’t going to. So how do all the sheep how followed these liars deal with this fact?”
ReplyDeleteThe FACT is that, in actual practice, the UCG did away with the laws of God early on by allowing people in attendance to believe whatever they wanted to believe and to behave as badly as they wanted to behave. Other people were expected to put up with all the bad behavior in order to “show love” to all the unconverted perverts in their midst. This was a truly massive departure from the teaching that true love is keeping the commandments of God. People who pointed out the bad behavior or who complained about being subjected to it were accused of “not showing any love to anyone” and of being an “accuser of the brethren.” Even a dirty old man always wanting to grab a young girl's breasts was passed off as just showing “grandfatherly affection.”
The UCG did not dare to openly throw out everything like the WCG had done in 1995. The UCG quietly threw out everything and operates using tricky mind games and word games.
I'll be sure to ask the COGWA members who attend our UCG congregation once a month or so how they can stand to be around all the unrepentant, unconverted and godless people as well as listen to a message from a fake minister.
ReplyDeleteAnonyBitter at 12:37 PM and AnonyLiar at 12:37 PM, remember to STAY in the UCG. Bitterness loves company. You can be bitter together there. Liars love company. You can lie to each other there. Do NOT move on and try to pollute better splinter groups with your bitterness and your lies. Try to confine your sins in the church to the UCG. Or get a room.
ReplyDeleteDW at 11:36 AM said...“HWAs empire of self was destroyed. Why would anyone want to start a new group when, if it had truly been what hWA claimed it was, would still be going strong, membership in the millions by now.”
ReplyDeleteHWA claimed that the WCG had grown at the rate of about 30% a year over a 35 year period from its start in 1933. This growth ceased when GTA was fucking around in the late 1960s and1970s. After GTA's final ouster from the WCG in 1978 by his own father HWA, the WCG began to grow again.
If the Tkaches, who took over the WCG when HWA died in January 1986, had been able to grow the church at the rate of 30% a year, the WCG would now be HUGE. Instead, the Tkaches mocked HWA's claims about the previous growth of the church. They made HWA out to have been harsh, Pharisaical, ignorant, uneducated, foolish, wasteful, and almost totally incompetent. The Tkaches made themselves out to be much more loving, spiritual, educated, wise, thrifty, and competent. Nevertheless, the WCG stopped growing under the Tkaches and began to decline. When they openly totally apostatized in January 1995, the WCG really blew up and declined by about 90%.
Many splinter groups have formed from the wreckage of the WCG, but none of them seem to be able to grow. They do sometimes split and divide some more. Currently, not one of them is even one-tenth of the size of the WCG at its peak.
HWA GROWING THE WCG VERSUS THE DESTROYERS
ReplyDeleteIn his old age, Herbert W. Armstrong had made it appear to be so easy to grow the church that lots of other people thought that they could do it too, and even better than HWA had done.
Garner Ted Armstrong and his small band of rebels mistakenly thought that it was GTA's supposedly great speaking voice that had grown the WCG. When GTA got the final boot from the WCG in 1978, all his babbling never was able to grow his small CGI rebel group, or his next and even smaller ICG rebel group. GTA and his small band of rebellious followers seemed to forget where GTA got his voice from in the first place after falling out of his crib onto his head as a little kid and being dumb.
The apostate Tkaches thought that they could grow the church better than HWA, but they just ended up totally destroying it with their Great Apostasy of January1995. The leftover little bit of wreckage was renamed GCI. It apparently did a Bob Thiel and pretends to be bigger than it really is by including thousands of people from Africa who supposedly joined it.
Many splinter groups formed and the leaders of them often thought that they were such hot stuff, but they could only take pieces of what HWA had built up and then preside over their further doctrinal destruction and decline. Nobody yet appears to be able to grow the church.
Roderick C. Meredith tried to make it sound like almost nobody had ever heard of HWA and the WCG but that RCM's much smaller GCG splinter group, and then even smaller LCG splinter group, was going to shake the nations. LCG always had less than one-tenth of the number of people of the WCG at its peak, and RCM had to get those people from the WCG.
Gerald Flurry and David Pack each tried to make a big splash in the little COG pool, but it turned out that they were actually the craziest false prophets around and were really just dirtying the waters by pissing and pooping on everyone who ever tried to get along with them. It looks like there will be nothing but further decline for them in the future. People in the world can always join masochist clubs if they think they want physical abuse. There is no need for really satanic stuff like the PCG and the RCG offer unless they want physical, financial, mental, and spiritual abuse in one inconvenient package.
Many tiny little rebels like Norman Edwards, James Malm, and others tried unsuccessfully to start their own income streams from the WCG people, but nobody really wanted to financially support these “independent” goofballs. So, to be really, truly independent they would have to get a real job.
The UCG took the approach of quietly trying to collect paychecks for its ministers and avoiding trouble by being a really boring church. No people from the world seem to be interested in joining godless, boring people or feeding godless, boring ministers. People in the world can already believe whatever they want to believe and behave however they want to behave without going to the UCG to be allowed to believe whatever they want to believe and behave however they want to behave.
It looks like it might now be up to COGWA to see if anything can be done to grow the church. But people out in the world probably already have better X-mass programs right where they are. COGWA teaching against it while observing it might be too confusing for them.
About the same time as the splinters were all spewed from the mouth of God, fact checking, and large scale sharing of experiences became possible through the internet. That is what has limited the growth of the so-called COG. We have warned the world against the bogus "Armstrong Movement", and have prevented it from damaging thousands of additional lives. The leaders know this, and seethe over it, but are no longer able to shut out free speech, a powerful right acknowledged and preserved in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. As everyone knows, the WCG did not practice or allow free speech. The ministers throttled it, they can not any more, and boy howdy, are they ever pissed!
ReplyDeleteThe existence of cogwa has almost extended to the length of time UCG existed before the COGWA split. And time marches on in and out of the cog semi-cults.
ReplyDeleteRight, 7:29, we were all spewed out of the mouth of Christ so none of the splinters should be boasting or criticizing the other incessantly.
ReplyDeleteEvery church differs from another, within countries and within local areas, and Christ knows what's going on. We see this from the seven churches in Revelation.
Just as Israel wasn't split into two nations because of political shenanigans between mere mortals, so UCG wasn't split up because COGWA men were simply better. If that were the case COGWA would be growing in numbers and practicing reconciliation.
I said it before and I'll say it again: UCG perverted justice in my case involving a particular doctrine 20+ years ago and upheld my illegal disfellowshipping in spite of my pleas of innocence. This as well as all the other injustices in the church is the reason this happened, I believe. The sin has to be a serious one -- not a simple disagreement over asset allocation or some alleged immoral conduct. Solomon knew his kingdom was going to be split up due to his sins (1 Kings 11:11) yet he was still trying to protect his kingdom against any rival (1 Kings 11:40), much like our ministers who think that ONLY those on their side are righteous and that rebellion against THEM is worse than their own unrighteous conduct. When GTA sinned, he was thrown out. When the UCG judiciary sinned, guess what happened? They paid a heavier price. When WCG sinned, they lost the keys to the house.
Since then, several of the UCG principal men who condemned me have died off. In COGWA, they proved to be no better. Evil speaking goes from paranoid deacons and elders to the gullible heads, which brings swift action against anyone who is not a "company man". LCG was the same. Members heard something that offended them and they ran to the master stooges who came to the rescue to pervert justice in the name of truth.
As Peter said, it is better to suffer for well-doing than for evil-doing, but may we take it either way and reform our lives before God before it's too late.
However, if you people and members want to live by the sword be prepared to die by it. (Rev 13:10) And I'm not talking about the sword in Christ's mouth.