Why the corporate church is losing its younger members and its long time members:
"Well said! There’s quite a few young adults I know who are growing tired of this. The church is losing young adults and it’s because of things like this. I’ve spoken to ministers about these issues but often times they simply cannot see things through others perspectives."
"This is EVERYTHING my husband and I have been saying!! Thank you for your bravery. Sharing now "
"WOW!! I have been waiting for 20 years for someone to actually have this talk. I decided many years ago, I no longer desired to be a part of any of these groups. I have learned so much from being on the outside looking in on them and never want to be under this kind of control again. A minister is a guide or an example to a church. How can anyone think it is ok to be a part of something that has such control over the congregation. It certainly gives the feel of cult control. As I sit here listening to your video of how you were forced out of COGWA, I can't believe what I am hearing. I am so glad your eyes have been opened and I hope to run into you sometime at a nonspecific church group! Keep opening the eyes and following Gods lead for you!"
"Jesus said that, 'By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." Love is powerful and will draw people. I used to ask, "Where's the love?" Controlling people's minds and lives are not God's way. His way is truth and love and mercy and grace."
"I was in the Armstrong way of teaching for 33 years, although I had gotten saved as a teenager. I didn't even know I was saved. I gave up 3 scholarships to study music because Armstrong's teachings led me to believe that music was an idol and I had to give it up. My dad kicked me out and disowned me and the church people took me in. They told me you had to suffer to build character. Ministers said God is government and we must submit to their heirarchy. It nearly cost me my life, submitting to things that were bad for me. I got to the point where I began to read my bible on my own. Then when I was so sick, some lady came from another church, prayed, laid hands on me and I was suddenly healed. So I visited her church. I had no idea that anyone outside our church knew anything about the bible. I learned about Jesus, my Lord and Savior, and about the Holy Spirit, my teacher, comforter, Helper, etc. I am so glad that God woke me up. Enjoyed your video. Praying for you."
Healing an arrogant church
57 comments:
This is incredible to see. I wish them well. Imagine getting kicked out of the church for studying the Bible with a group of friends.
Soooo......let me make sure I understand this accurately:
1. This couple decides they don't agree with certain aspects of COGWA doctrines and policies.
2. Then they set out on a campaign to change said items of disagreement.
3. The organization's management and presumably most of its members are not keen on these proposed changes.
4. This couple is then removed from the organization.
What am I missing?
I absolutely despise COGWA. Franks, Horchak, and the rest of their little cabal are dishonest and conniving. But I can't blame them for removing two people who were unabashedly determined to promote a different agenda than the one promoted by management. This is no different than watching Kubik, Franks, Horchak, and others plot to form the UCG while still on the payroll of WCG. The ethical thing to do is leave without causing drama, and if others want to follow you they can do so later.
I hope the younger generations pay attention to what this couple is promoting. But in the meantime COGWA has every right to manage how they see fit. If they choose to make poor decisions by attempting to retain the same old policies and behaviors, they will pay a price in time, but it is still their call.
Spot on Ann 1:51... If you don't like the rules of the organization, Leave! But if you go contrary to the rules of any organization and decide you want to do your own thing within that organization, I have no problem with them throwing you out. God condemns those who cause discord and division.
Even HWA in the autobiography claims that a man, who had no church affiliation in the Sabbatarian movement, prayed and healed his wife of a blood poisoning situation, that was almost fatal.
God will work with who, and when he wants.
I have always winced at the phrase “being saved.” Aren’t we all saved?
Yes God condemns causing division. I called a minster who I thought knew well who would end up being a leader in COGWA. A great speak, nice guy and we played church softball games in Grant Park. We talked for twice for an hour each time. He said there was no way to patch things together because United was “going to make major doctrinal changes.” NEVER HAPPENED!
Frankly, it was a LIE!
Anon151,
So, you are born into a church, your parents generally saw to it that most of your social time is with that church, you grow up and all your best friends are associated with that church, you begin to see that some things really don't make seem right to you. You voice these concerns to a few others, and you believe that the judgment should be disfellowshipping?
You don't care that they gave their entire lives and social support system and community to that church? It's not like a business that you just go to a new one. It's like disowning a family member for disagreeing with a family rule, even if temporarily.
That is a sick family or church that treats people like that. And, businesses are way more forgiving than COGWA.
God condemns causing division for the purpose of causing division, i.e. troublemakers, political movers and shakers stepping on others to get their way (see Bob Thiel, king of my way or the highway). He most certainly does NOT condemn causing division for the sake of His truth, handled properly, by mature teachers. He would never condemn anyone genuinely seeking a relationship with Him, who has questions about specific teachings or doctrines. That alone is a huge red flag you are in a cult! If you are literally not allowed to question doctrines, that is proof they (ministry) know they are on shaky biblical ground.
The greatest fear these cog ministers should have is their members reading their Bibles alone, in the privacy of their own home. Their doctrines would never, ever withstand the scrutiny.
So please cog members, please read your Bibles, alone, in the privacy of your own home. No "minister" needed!
You voice these concerns to a few others, and you believe that the judgment should be disfellowshipping?
Voicing your concerns to a few close friends is one thing, trying to convince the organization and membership to adopt your way of thinking is another matter entirely. This couple was aiming for the latter. The distinction is significant.
You don't care that they gave their entire lives and social support system and community to that church?
Sometimes you have to make some hard decisions if you want to be true to yourself. I did. I left. I gave up all of my "friends" and all of my family. But it was either that or go on antidepressants for the rest of my life. I'm much better off today. It was an extremely painful time but unfortunately necessary.
It's like disowning a family member for disagreeing with a family rule, even if temporarily.
Not true. This couple made it pretty clear it wasn't a temporary disagreement.
And, businesses are way more forgiving than COGWA
Not true. Any manager who is decent at his job would fire someone who behaves like this. Toxicity spreads like a cancer. People who aren't happy should find somewhere else to go. Isn't this exactly what we all said about Joe Tkach and his friends? Wouldn't the church have been much better off if he had left to start his own church, or joined a local Pentecostal church, instead of trying to convince us to his points of view?
Again, I want to emphasize I absolutely despise COGWA. They are one of the worst of the splinters, in some ways more dangerous than PCG or RCG because they aren't quite as overt in their corruption. I hope there is a hell just so Horchak and Franks can burn in it. But that said this couple needed to be removed. Everyone is much better off for it. COGWA members can continue to worship just like they always have without having to face hard questions, COGWA ministers can continue to draw their tithe-funded paychecks, and this couple can go somewhere else where they can be more effective and have a greater impact.
Eventually COGWA will have to face the music and suffer the consequences of their abusive and corrupt policies, traditions, and doctrines. But that probably won't happen until the current generation of leadership is pushing up daisies. I am most disappointed by that.....but life isn't always fair and good doesn't always triumph over evil.
And in the end, it all becomes a COG thing! Looking for the perfect ACOG, and somehow feeling you have a part in it all. The language and innocence are just impeccable, perfect actually. A slight variation of the old Bob Thiel theme. This birthing, courtesy of COGWA!
I really wish enlightenment and transformation could be so simple, Alas, they are vastly more elusive than this!
First of all I wish this couple the best. They’re utilizing critical thinking to find the flaws in the groupthink COG mentality.
Deconstruction is important. Especially if you’ve only known forms of the COG.
As a critique though. They keep talking about how they want to serve. But it seems like serving is in a position of leadership or power. Giving sermons, giving prayers, etc… Doing the speaking but not the listening.
I would think the best examples of service are the ones where there is no spotlight and no one to witness the good you do.
Hope you both can leave Armstrongism far behind you!
9.08 pm
Yes, if a person joins a political party or religion and then campaigns against their policies, the organization has the legal and moral right to put them out of their group. But you insist on portraying this in black and white terms. People can so much as question a minister about a church doctrine or even tell a "friend" that they disagree with a church teaching, and then find themselves thrown out of the church. Two of my ACOG ministers wanted to put me out of the church because I stood up to the perks church bullies had given themselves, such as playing king of the mountain. Members can invest considerable time serving their church and developing friendships, only to have this all ripped away from them by a unjust minister. I have learnt my lesson. I would never invest in any organization again.
People are better off spending their time educating themselves or developing their interests. A church can't rob you of the fruits of these labors.
Kubik, Franks, Horchak, all hirelings of the former WCG, who fled WCG left their ministerial credentials behind in Pasadena, and set the example for others to follow.
Will others continue to follow the Kubik, Franks, Horchak way, and do what seems right in their own eyes?
Time will tell...
John
Anon, Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 2:53:00 PM PDT asked:
I have always winced at the phrase “being saved.” Aren’t we all saved?
******
And part of the answer for all of the "sheep," and no goats allowed, is:
Matthew 25:34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
Did the king know what he was talking about?
Time will tell..
John
P.s. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Like 4:44 s remarks
It wasn't a lie, the eventual COGWA leaders made the mistake of crediting the apostates in UCG with more backbone and courage than they could ever have.
Trying apostasy on with others is ALL the UCG apostates are capable of.
They should have stayed.
Members are "moved out of the church", affectionately known as "being dis-membered", because the Church "from the top down" has never figured out that "we must all speak the same thing so that there be no division among you", in I Cor 1:10-17, is an impossible solution.
Whatever the Apostle Paul was thinking, he seemed ill informed as to how human minds think and that it is impossible to enforce such a mindset on it. Where two or three are gathered together there is always a 3 different view of the same things.
When one follows the ideas of the one or the few, division will come. What is needed is a much higher tolerance for the differences of opinions on how the freedom, in the church, to see various topics differently, as if one could really know, without retribution.
Dave Pack is currently the ultimate example of an ill-advised ministry trying to force everyone into his narrow and completely BS theology. The more he thinks he needs to get them all the "speak the same thing", the smaller RCG will get. RCG is doomed because of this one-man funnel. As are all the COGs if they don't grow up.
PS And, IMHO, it's too late. They had their chance
I finally outgrew Armstrong's cult doctrines and textbook mind control tactics the moment I started actually reading the Bible for myself cover-to-cover, in context, and unfiltered by another man's interpretation, sermon, writings, or curated list of select verses...and have zero interest in joining any of their cult babies (the multitude of splinter groups spawned from the same made up brand of religion).
It seems pretty clear that what the corporate "leadership" fears most (division) is what they are actually guilty of doing themselves and in some cases more than once! Not surprised they would want to eliminate any threat to the status quo.
Being disfellowshipped might actually work in this couple's favor provided they don't just form yet another splinter group.
Anon908,
The issue is what these actions say about COGWA. COGWA is obviously sick. I have been in plenty of organizations (companies I've worked for, Boards I have sat on, social organizations, etc.) where I have voiced my thoughts on problems in the organization and that changes need to be made. But, because I was respected and valued, I was not booted out.
Sometimes, my advice and position were taken, sometimes not. At times, my opinion has also openly remained at odds with the organization's policy for multiple years, but again, I was not booted, but rather remained well-liked and respected. I have been later told that I was correct as time bore that out. I have also told organizations that I'm glad my advice was not taken as time also bore that my opinion was not the best one.
That is how healthy organizations run.
I think you are looking at it through your lens of simply being glad to be shut of COGWA. I think it is awful that your decision resulted in loss of family relationships and years long "friends". There is nothing about that that is good or should be expected.
I agree MM. Some have wondered if this will cause a split in COGWA, but, at most it will just be an exodus of some out of COGWA. The actual splits are ALWAYS minister-driven and I doubt there are any ministers in COGWA that have any leaning towards the concerns of the Hendersons.
DD, I think Paul was emphatically saying that it is Christ Who we follow which is a necessary part of being a Christian and that divisions counter to that primary teaching cannot be. I Cor. 1:10 is at the beginning of the letter and is obviously an issue he is addressing in Corinth. He precedes the verse with the centrality of Christ in our lives and then Paul reveals the problem...that some are dividing themselves from one another by claiming they are of Cephas (Peter) or Apollos or Paul or some of Christ. But, Paul says we must not create such divisions as we all are OF CHRIST.
Anonymous at 1:33 AM said...“Members can invest considerable time serving their church and developing friendships, only to have this all ripped away from them by a unjust minister. I have learnt my lesson. I would never invest in any organization again. People are better off spending their time educating themselves or developing their interests. A church can't rob you of the fruits of these labors.”
Some cults try to tell you that financially supporting them is “your best investment.” However, in the end, it can turn out to have been a very bad gamble that costs you dearly.
Anonymous at 3:17 PM said...“Yes God condemns causing division. I called a minster who I thought knew well who would end up being a leader in COGWA. A great speak, nice guy and we played church softball games in Grant Park. We talked for twice for an hour each time. He said there was no way to patch things together because United was 'going to make major doctrinal changes.' NEVER HAPPENED! Frankly, it was a LIE!”
In January 1995, the apostate Joseph W. Tkach, Sr. and his accomplices openly threw out of the Worldwide Church of God virtually everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught. This loud and open apostasy resulted in the WCG membership and income declining by about 90%.
Most WCG ministers got laid off due to the rapidly declining income of the WCG and some of them started the United Church of re-employed men in order to continue to collect paychecks. If they had not been laid off by the WCG, many of them might still be in it going along with whatever it teaches in order to continue to collect paychecks.
The godless ministers in the UCG did a quiet and secret apostasy by simply allowing anyone to attend and believe and behave however they wanted to. They do not yet dare to openly say everything that they really believe.
Looking at it from another perspective, and just from the 5 or 10 minutes I watched of a couple of videos, it appears that the couple went through a stressor, which caused them to look beyond what I will term the "brainwashing" or "programming" received over years of faithful membership in Armstrong-based churches. They feel as if they received a solution, and fell into disfavor as they attempted to share that solution with others, because it is a matter of policy that new understandings must come only through official channels of the church. These are complicated times, those channels having been compromised by the fact that the officials of all the splinters have "left the church" themselves multiple times to arrive at their current state of existence. Perhaps that causes people to take "church government" less seriously, although obviously those who wield the sword of Damocles still do take it very seriously.
There is a tradition of constants taught in the ACOGs ("the same yesterday, today, and forever"), whatever that means, since our understanding evolves as humankind learns and experiences more throughout the generations. Josephus, in his writings, complimented select kings and other rulers posthumously, using the phrase "made no innovations". The philosophies of Herbert W. Armstrong do depend on static constants, as opposed to dynamic growth. In Armstrongism, any growth or changes are supposed to emanate from their system of "government from the top down." Changes appear to be retrograde, devoted to making the church more like the first century followers of Jesus and the Apostles. New understanding seems to derive chiefly from greater understanding of prophecy, factoring in the continuum of current events, rather than on the chain of human experience as time passes.
Is this logical, or fair? It seems to be general knowledge amongst all of the members, and is acceptable and accepted as part and parcel of Armstrongism until someone outgrows it. In secular history, there is an ancient tradition of rising above and in some cases, even killing one's master or mentor, and then taking things to the next level. That appears to be human nature. Bruce Lee studied many forms of martial arts, and amalgamated them into one system using all of the best elements. Only in certain religions is this considered to be a bad or negative form of growth. Armstrongism in its various forms and applications can produce personal growth, yet at some point, it begins to limit growth, and forbids its members to go beyond it. If you never outlive its effectiveness, you can be a successful lifetime church member. For some, that is simply an unacceptable limitation.
Does anyone think this is normal?
1) Control of a vacation?
2) Cannot interpret the Bible without
them?
3) Demanding a minister present?
4). What if you want to vacation to see
your real family outside of this group and do things with friends outside of this group?
5) Fear of conversations with people in & outside of the group?
WHAT??!!
Like 6:26
They put people in boxes to stop critical thinking, to give up their God-given rights & giftings, to control their finances. The ministers try to keep the key. Smart people have an extra set up keys & climb out & don't look back exposing them.
On a personal level, most people settle for some mix of truth and error that they feel comfortable with. All Christian denominations do the same. Which means that if a person is growing, sooner or later they will clash with their church's teachings. This creates the trial of either following Christ or following their church. A "dissident" will choose to obey God rather than man. Yet ACOGs members look down on the stay at home dissidents, viewing them as spiritual losers.
Which of the two is correct?
10:17 is right. When you grow you grow out of the box you have been in. You then move to a different box. Eventually you should outgrow that one also.
I beg to differ with the your first part of your comments @10:17. I am not aware of any Christian denominations that will kick someone out for growing beyond the teachings of that particular denomination. As a matter of fact, I know for a fact that Baptist ministers will help you find a "better fit" if you don't gel with Baptist doctrines. The same for the Presbyterian church. You are NOT forced, in either of these denominations, to agree with all their doctrines. In my experience, that behavior is solely found in spiritual counterfeits (or cults, to be blunt).
I wonder if this couple, or maybe some readers here at Banned, know that there are three doctrines that all true Christian denominations agree upon (for more or less the last 2,000 years). First, the understanding of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Second, how are we saved and what is the Gospel. Third, the authority of Scripture over denominational doctrines. Beyond those fundamental, shared beliefs in most Christian denominations of Who is God, how we are saved and the inerrancy and infallibility of Scripture, the downstream teachings are not a one size fits all mandate. You are free to learn at your own pace, study yourself (no minister needed), no dress code, make up ban, car color approval, new job pre-approval, who you can and can't date, mandatory tithing (vs free will offerings, if any), engage in community service to help feed, clothe and shelter those in need are standard practice in denominations the world over. This kind of teaching, the mandates, the abuse, the control over a human beings every last life detail is UNHEARD OF, in any experience I have ever witnessed or any Christians I know of. These people (the church leaders, not this couple) may as well be speaking Greek.
Perhaps some might greatly benefit from learning FOR THEMSELVES whether the HWA, spittle filled, venomous tirades against Protestantism is truthful or not. Do you own homework and see for yourself. Just because HWA said it, and every single HWA wanna-be since has repeated it, does not make it true. These experiences are not Christianity. They are not "church". They are spiritual counterfeits, hurting real people, who want nothing more than to love God. That, by definition, is Anti-Christ. You deserve better...and so does our Glorious God!
For many years after leaving Armstrongism I ran new member and confirmation classes in the church I joined. One thing I told each group was that just because a minister says something does not mean you have to agree with it. We encourage questions and that they did not need to check their brain at the front door when they entered each week.
It was shocking how many coming from fundamentalist-style churches found this to be very discomforting, yet eventually blossomed doing it. Like this of us Armstrongism, they were used to being TOLD what to believe and how to believe it and to NEVER question the church leader's interpretation.
I also would tell these new people that this church might just be a stop on a journey to something bigger and better for them. Use it as a resting point, recover from our previous church, glean what works for you, and ignore what doesn't. Then, when and if you decide to move on, you will be refreshed for that journey.
Even in the 4-year class I now run on the bible, church history, and theology I encourage them to question. The books we use were selected to spur people to question and not believe it just because it is written down in front of them.
The Churches of God ministry is NOT theologically educated well enough to bring about meaningful change. The repetitive sermon topics and same old, same old, problem reflect this. All the ministry in all the splinters are stuck in the 60's and they have no mechanism for positive change and lowering the boredom factor.
Note: I will say that the "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus" emphasis also gets old as I grew up with that and got tired of hearing that as well. But then you had to die to get your reward. We knew that much. The Churches of God, with reading the Bible like the news can only keep it going with fear and soon.
Thus, and perhaps, love grows cold or not at all because it casts out the fear and there goes the impetus to come to a typical "it won't be long now" Church of God.
The churches of God all had their origins in the Doomscrolling that leads to Prediction Addiction and "it won't be long now" prophecy as the main reason to even come into the churches.
Well, as with the early church, "shortly" went very long and the church began to die off "not having received the promises" they were and still are contunually being promised.
I don't believe any real change can come to such groups. The younger minstry had their chance and they are now old. I used to think I had come to the WCG ministry, in the 70's, for such a time as that and help the church grow up. Wrong....
PS Meaningful, interesting and no threatening change and more interesting sermons will never happen as long as going along to get along rules the members and corrals any ministry that actually knows more than he was first taught theologically or than the guy that thinks he's in charge.
Wrong. It didn't have anything to do with doctrine.
No, we aren't all saved yet. When the mortal puts on immortality then we'll know we endured to the end and our change arrived. It's definitely not "once saved, always saved" either. I wince at that one. Find a scripture that states that one.
2010 was about power. Plain and simple. The leadership in these orgs causing divisions far outweighs any divisions caused by individuals. Everyone needs to be busy deleavening their lives. There's a lot of puffed up individuals around, sadly.
I went to an open bible study where a few of the "top" leadership from UCG took questions from the audience. There were a few unknown to me young men that began bringing up questions. I could tell right off they were on top of their studying of things in scripture and not from booklets. The leaders from UCG sounded like amateur chess players when giving their rote answers. Wheels began turning in my head.
... there are three doctrines that all true Christian denominations agree upon ...
That kind of reasoning sounds like the "True Scotsman" fallacy.
Further, what about the "lost Christianities" that Bart Ehrman speaks of?
12.07 pm writes: "This kind of teaching, the mandates, the control over a human beings every last life detail is UNHEARD OF, in any experience I have witnessed or any Christians I know."
Well, you have lived a sheltered life. Try reading Jehovah's Witnesses dissident sites or their YouTube dissident videos. It's a religious dictatorship They complain of being treated like "kindergarten children" and to question an elders "advice" means being treated like a leper or being disfellowship.
I bought and read half a dozen books on abusive Christian churches. As the books bring out, tyrannical abuse in American churches is rampant. Try reading "Twisted scriptures" by Mary Alice Chrnalogar. It's a painful book to read. Oh, and not forgetting the televangelists. They are all tyrannical. Kenneth Copeland said in one of his programs that God was whispering in Adams ear when he was naming the animals. Yep, how dare humans have any freedom or self responsibility.
12.07, you need to have a good look around.
Jesus said his church would increase, not decrease. The king and the kingdom are not separate. Jesus demonstrated how the kingdom operates and left us His authority over principalities and darkness. We are each to learn our identity in Him and use the authority He gave us right now.
We are called "Kings and Priests before our God. We are to stand on scriptures applying to the situation we are facing. In the spirit it forms a double edged sword coming out of our mouth. One side of the sword is scripture. The other side of the sword is our voice speaking it out loud. Then we stand firm in faith until the Word manifests.
Real Christian churches are not a dictatorship as far as the pastors to the people who attend. They do not talk to them like little children or set dates. They do not dictate. They do not yell at them, slander, belittle. People are treated with respect. There are Bible study groups within each church reading the whole Bible and discussing each chapter. You listen to what people have to say & apply what makes the most sense.
So what is the deal with this couple placing a little logo in the corner , giving them the title of "POWER DIRECTOR"???
I can pick on COGWA, but Im getting the strong sense after watching a few of these guys videos that they are wannabe cult leaders too!
And once again, COGWA enforces its policy that no one can be on the speaking schedule if they have ever fellowshipped with another group. Of course all the Cogs have this rule. Well, Henderson family, just understand that neither Paul nor Jesus would be allowed to speak in COGWA or any other Cog either with their policy so you are in good company!
Like it May 10th --12:14.
You are right. Jesus or Paul would not be allowed to speak at it.
Tonto said: "So what is the deal with this couple placing a little logo in the corner, giving them the title of "POWER DIRECTOR"??? I can pick on COGWA, but Im getting the strong sense after watching a few of these guys videos that they are wannabe cult leaders too!"
Tonto, it's nothing that nefarious. "PowerDirector" is a video editing software. That is the logo that is embedded on their videos.
https://www.cyberlink.com/powerdirector-free-download-video-editing-software
What did this couple expect? After all, COGWA was founded on a fraud ("UCG is going to massively change doctrines") and promised a government more in line with that of WCG. Of course that means a hierarchical government that disfellowships on a whim. These people got what they asked for! They should have been alert to the COGWA fraud in the first place and seen that the COGWA leaders wanted to start their own church (after having been ousted by the majority of the elders) and the only way to get anyone to follow them was to lie about UCG (which they had to do anonymously, to avoid accountability). The power of deception is amazing. These people were duped; hopefully they've opened their eyes now.
Look, this entire movement is such a mess that you really can't know what is planned, and what is done to backpedal and save face. How do you know that COGWA leaders were not telling the truth about the planned doctrinal changes, and that UCG didn't cancel them to stop the exodus so they'd have any church left at all???
We've seen so much lying and so much fraud that it is nearly impossible to get at the truth. There are no righteous ACOGs, no not one! It's a junk church, bogus from the get go, built on fesr of the Germans, or the Lake of Fire.
Anon, Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 5:44:00 PM PDT, wrote:
"...Look, this entire movement is such a mess that you really can't know what is planned, and what is done to backpedal and save face. How do you know that COGWA leaders were not telling the truth about the planned doctrinal changes, and that UCG didn't cancel them to stop the exodus so they'd have any church left at all???
We've seen so much lying and so much fraud that it is nearly impossible to get at the truth. There are no righteous ACOGs, no not one! It's a junk church, bogus from the get go, built on fesr of the Germans, or the Lake of Fire..."
******
Who may be the real enemies with these former WCG hirelings, organizations, Ass(s), etc. with their ministerial credentials left in Pasadena? Does the Apostle Paul know?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]." Ephesians 6:12
Do any in these man-made org/ass(s) believe their Bibles? Why all of the lying? All can't be telling the truth!
What may be the source of the lies from all of these former WCG hirelings (e.g. Shabi, Franks, Winnail, Weston, Weinland, Coulter, Pack, Flurry,et al and their man-made organizations, Ass(s), etc. with their ministerial credentials left in Pasadena? But keep them paychecks coming to them...! Source? Principalities! Huh?
"Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44
Well, that is what Jesus, the anointed one, said, but who believes it?
Regardless, sin abounds, and what may be that source? If Paul and Jesus isn't believed, then what about John?
"He that committeth sin is of the devil;..." I John 3:8
Why cut/paste the rest of that verse if these supposed hireling leaders can't believe those 8 words?
It appears that all are confronted with another Jesus, another gospel, another spirit...junk churches serving Junk Food? And these leaders probably still con't think they are being paid enough. What new thing have any of them learned since the death of HWA, their idol? Believing Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament is idolatry: putting Jesus in place of Jesus' God, Jesus' Father. Why can't the likes of Shabi, Kubic, Franks, Pack understand that?
Could it be they all are driven by another spirit?
James said another spirit works in the lives of Christians; didn't he?
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5
Yes, the same spirit that dwelleth in Joseph's brothers before they decided to get rid of him. That Joseph of Genesis, of course.
What may be Jesus' parting words be for these hirelings? Perhaps this:
Matthew 23:33 "[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."
But, was Jesus talking to the religious leaders of His day, or to the spirits that were driving those blind religious leaders to do and say the dumb things that came out of their mouths?
Time will tell...
John
A Comment on this thread stated:
"..."Jesus said that, 'By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." Love is powerful and will draw people. I used to ask, "Where's the love?" Controlling people's minds and lives are not God's way. His way is truth and love and mercy and grace."..."
******
Love is not of self; the love Jesus mentioned is a fruit of His Father's spirit (Gal 5:22-23), but by their fruits you know them.
What other fruits exist?
Romans 1:28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
Who would have pleasure doing any of that, sharing those "fruits/works" in others?
More fruit/works to know them by?
Galatians 5:19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Why such an impact on flesh? Principalities involved again?
Paul understood that: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not." Romans 7:18
Paul also added the words of Romans 7:17, 20-21, but who believes these words? Blind, deceived, hirelings of the former WCG? Blind, because they don't see themselves caught up in any of these fruit/works.
One major principality thinks he is impressing others with him/itSELF (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28!
Are people properly discerning the fruits/works of the hirelings and their man-made organizations/ass(s), etc. after they fled their former WCG/HWA of Pasadena...some in an attempt to vote in Worldwide church of god 2? Just who/whom do these leaders think they are impressing, besides themSELVES? Could they just be blindly, ignorantly, be following another God, another Jesus, another spirit, another gospel...receiving nice paychecks and hoping not to be exposed? Of course, the leaders can't expose others, because they would then expose themSELVES. Anybody recall the greatest trick the Devil could play: a trick that these hireling leaders have swallowed hook, line and sinker, but...
Time will tell...
John
John, in fact it is such a mess that, based on the principles taught by Herbert W. Armstrong, useing them to identify "God's True Church", it is impossible to discern which if any of the splinters is actually God's Church.
It's a guessing gsme in which members just hang with their best friends, favorite ministers, or family, that is until somone sleights them or disfellowships them.
It's as if somebody yelled '"Hey everybody! Surf's up!", and the splinter surfing began. There's so much competition for the tithe money, but even the ones receiving the bulk of it are completely invisible. All the splinters have been spewed from the mouth of God!
Leave out Fred Coulters name from the list of hirelings. He is the only one who teaches Gods truth. Just like Fred tried to tell Frank’s that Pentecost was 30 AD not 31AD no way would franks listen. How have is the one who changed the year and it’s totally a lie
"Leave out Fred Coulters name from the list of hirelings. "
Fred Coulter is as big a crackpot as Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack, Bob Thiel, and Wade Cox are. These liars have distorted the bible into meaningless crap to support their own pet doctrines and beliefs. Christ is not part of any of their cultish ways. Coulter can stick his demon-inspired fake Bible where the sun doesn't shine.
What a hateful man you are! Oh yes I had a typo in my comment. Dr Hoeh changed pentecost year from 30 AD to 31AD
Re: their statement @38:00 - If lifting hands in prayer is "too new age-y" for some COGWA ministers, they need to review the COGWA booklet/article on "How to Pray."
Lifting hands is mentioned, with scriptural backing. Nothing is said against it!
As for the comment above: COGWA enforces its policy that no one can be on the speaking schedule if they have ever fellowshipped with another group...
That certainly didn't stop Victor Kubik. Not even when he was President of UCG.
W.A. said: "COGWA enforces its policy that no one can be on the speaking schedule if they have ever fellowshipped with another group..."
Ha, ridiculous, considering most COGWA ministers came out of UCG, and most probably were in WCG.
Look at what Christ said in Luke 12:49–53 (NKJV):
“49 I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But
I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather
division. 52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two,
and two against three. 53 Father will be divided against son and son against father,
mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her
daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”
Christ said here that He did not come to bring peace. He came to bring division. People in
families would end up divided and at war with each other.
When I was in COGWA years ago, I gave a sermonette that was in line with the church's doctrines and biblically-based. But the pastor did not like something I said and banned me from speaking.
There is a controlling attitude by ministers in COGWA and most COGs in general. I also experience controlling ministers in UCG, COGaic, and CGI.
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