Thursday, June 15, 2023

UPDATED: Evaluating the rumors about Herbert W. Armstrong and incest

UPDATED Links to Deborah Armstrong, Larry Gott, and Verne Mattson's stories

Originally posted in 2017

When individuals research the history of the Worldwide Church of God, they generally turn to the Internet.  The Internet allows the efficient gathering of facts, truths, and insights.  The Internet can also be a rich source of rumors, lies, and innuendo.  For most WCG issues, separating the facts from the fiction is fairly straightforward.  There is typically enough documented data for individuals to make informed decisions without buying into lies or unsubstantiated rumors.   

When it comes to evaluating the allegations of Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong (HWA) committing incest, however, the situation is more challenging.  The act is repulsive, the implications are significant, the burden of proof is high, and yet the documentation is somewhat sparse and hotly contested.  His critics tend to dogmatically claim HWA committed incest and offer this as proof that HWA was not a man led by God.  Some ministers have acknowledged that HWA did commit incest but they tend to downplay the significance of it.  Other strident HWA supporters have dogmatically claimed that the allegations are false and these individuals typically attack the integrity and motives of the accusers. 

Is it possible to sort through all of the contradictory claims on this topic?  This document was prepared to summarize my own efforts to do so.  It was compiled from information that is available on the internet.  I’ve also included additional material regarding my discussions with some of the ministers who had been at the Pasadena Headquarters just before and after the accusations were made public around 1980.       


A number of individuals have indicated that the charges against HWA are false, unfounded and evil spirited.  Common positions include:

1.     LACK OF EVIDENCE - the evidence presented by his accusers would not stand up in court.  An example of such a position is discussed in further detail below.

2.     INCONCEIVABLE - it is inconceivable for a man of integrity, a man of God, to have done such a thing.  This type of defense is also addressed below. 


“Not guilty” due to lack of evidence.  Bob Thiel is an individual who finds HWA not guilty of incest due to there being insufficient evidence to prove the incest had taken place.  His full, in-depth explanation can be found at the following link:

Herbert W. Armstrong & Incest: Not Guilty!


Bob reported that he personally investigated the issue.  He claimed that not only could the accusations not be proven, but some aspects were actually disprovable. 

He concluded that the accusers had merely perpetuated the charade with no direct information and that HWA would be found not guilty in any real court of law. 

In essence, Bob believes that all accusations about HWA and his daughter stem from the charges first aired in David Robinson's 1980 book, Armstrong’s Tangled Web.

A significant point Bob made included that Art Mokarow would not stand by previous comments about personally hearing HWA's alleged confession in the "Lochner tapes"

Note that in Bob’s investigation, he did not discuss the allegations with several individuals who had reported learning about the incest directly from Armstrong family members. 

 “Not guilty” because it is inconceivable.  It makes no sense that God would have imparted spiritual knowledge to an individual who, at the same time was violating his own daughter.   This is the position many take, including the individual behind the "HWA Library" site and Frank Nelte.  In response to questions I raised, they both argued along the lines of:  God only works through men of integrity.  God obviously worked through HWA.  Therefore, HWA is a man of integrity and these claims must be false.

Although many strongly believe this to be the case, circular reasoning proves nothing.


Lack of Denials

It would have been reassuring to find clear denials of the incest at the time these claims had been put into print in books (e.g., Armstrong's Tangled Web) or when they appeared in newspapers (during HWA's divorce trial and when the church divided in 1995).  However, the allegations were never denied publically by HWA, by his family members, or by the WCG. 

Is the lack of denials proof that the incest occurred?  No.

"David Defense"

Some HWA supporters have acknowledged (without getting into the specific 'proofs') that he had committed incest with his daughter but then have offered excuses such as the "David defense" to minimize the transgression and to imply that it had no impact on his role.  Such statements are telling but they neither prove nor excuse the alleged incest.

Are non-specific acknowledgments of incest proofs that the incest had occurred?  No.


1.     Nov. 19, 1979 Letter from David Robinson.  David Robinson, a former WCG evangelist wrote a letter to HWA that alluded to the incest and other sexual issues and requested that HWA resign for the good of the church.
While some have attacked David Robinson's integrity, others have defended him.  This is not surprising.  This is often the case when individuals speak out about controversial topics and every individual could be praised or criticized depending on what attributes or actions a supporter or enemy would choose to focus on.  

2.     HERBERT ARMSTRONG'S TANGLED WEB by David Robinson, 1980

David Robinson wrote from firsthand knowledge of the WCG and with deep disappointment.  He came to agree with Solomon who advised against putting their trust in men. Chapter XX of the book covered
HWA and the incest story.   An excerpt is provided below and the entire book is available in PDF form at the following link accessed from "The Painful Truth"  website:

"Incest is a terrible and unnatural crime, an extreme perversity. That is why I was shocked beyond measure to hear that Herbert Armstrong was himself, guilty of this vile sin. I learned of this in the summer of 1979 from members of his own family. The story, sordid beyond imagination, was told in awful detail.
One family source was Garner Ted Armstrong. Last summer, as HWA attacked his own son in such savage fury, his son was in the depths of despair. His emotional mix included anger and deep hurt. In such a state he told family secrets that otherwise would have been locked within him forever. He said he had learned in 1971 of his father's incredible conduct during the '30's and '40s. The story came directly to him in lurid detail, but he kept it sealed in his own consciousness for all those years. But, in the spring of 1978 while in his father's house for the last time, his father had threatened to "destroy him." Ted, in response, replied, "Dad, I will destroy you. I know about you and -----." (He was speaking of the younger of his two sisters.)"
...None who have objectively heard the incest story in its awful detail doubt it. This is a vital chapter left out of HWA's autobiography. This sin occurred over a long span of years, a decade after his ordination to the ministry, according to his own family members. No wonder he was not receptive to David Antion's "qualifications for the ministry" paper back in 1974."
Such matters should not normally be mentioned, but this is by no means a normal case. The welfare of thousands is at stake, and thousands who look to HWA, idolizing him as if he were God himself, must come to understand how dangerous such a view is. Thousands around the world have been hurt by blindly following this man. Now people must be given enough information to make an intelligent decision on whether this is the man who is going to lead them to safety during the "crisis at the close," or whether he is just going to continue taking their money and calling them "dumb sheep"!
"...The way a man talks in private is the way he is. His public utterances alone aren't enough to judge a man's character—his trustworthiness. It is especially necessary to know what kind of man you follow when he promises to lead you in the kingdom of God."
Although this book may not have been the most well written account of the church, much of the material was consistent with other sources and confirmed through my personal discussions with ministers who had been at headquarters during this period. 
Is the incest claim credible?  Since Mr. Robinson stated that he had learned about the incest directly from several family members (although he named only GTA), this leaves us with just a few choices:
·       Mr. Robinson was lying.
·       GTA (and others) had lied to Mr. Robinson
·       Mr. Robinson had told the truth
No matter how disgruntled an individual had become about WCG in 1980, it is difficult to imagine that they would be willing to make such a claim if they knew it were to be false.  WCG was very well-funded and litigious and it would have put an individual at great financial risk to make such a claim in print.  Mr. Robinson went ahead and made the claim and also explained why he did so.
Although Herbert Armstrong never sued David Robinson for publishing his book, two of his employees (Henry Cornwall and Sherwin McMichael) did sue Mr. Robinson.  The suit was settled with WCG having to pay Mr. Robinson $25,000.

3.     December 1, 1980 Ambassador Report
The incest story was also mentioned in Ambassador Report #14, December 1, 1980 ("HWA incest allegations not denied").
Many AR readers who have read David Robinson's book Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web have written to us expressing absolute shock at some of the allegations it contains. Especially disturbing to many are the allegations contained in chapter 20 entitled "Incest."

We sincerely wish that we could report uncovering evidence to negate Mr. Robinson's charges, but unfortunately, that is not the case. Herbert Armstrong has not issued any statement discounting the charges, nor has Stan Rader. Dorothy Mattson, Herbert Armstrong's daughter, has not come forward to deny the allegations. And Garner Ted Armstrong has also refused to deny the charges. The Toronto Star, Sept. 20 (p. F4) wrote:

"Contacted by phone in Tyler, Texas, where he heads his own new church, the Church of God International, Garner Ted Armstrong said he had 'no comment' regarding allegations of his father's incest ...."
All Ambassador Reports are available at:   Ambassador Report

4.     December 30, 1981 letter from Jack Kessler to the Board of WCG
Jack Kessler was WCG's CPA who worked directly with HWA and Rader and his letter detailing a number of corporate irregularities contained the following references to the charge of incest:
“The human condition is such that it would shock probably only just a few to learn of the moral depravity that is reported commonly among you. Although others, such as Dave Robinson* and Floyd Lochner, apparently thought it might work to their advantage to report Mr. Armstrong's admission (which he's made to several) that he had engaged repeatedly in incestuous intercourse with his daughter during the first 10 years of his ministry, as well as more recent, self-confessed sexual perversity..."

The entire letter available at:

This letter was credible in a number of areas.  Was it true regarding the incest allegation?  In addition to mentioning Mr. Robinson as a source, Mr. Kessler also brought up Mr. Floyd Lochner.  Floyd Lochner had allegedly taped HWA, hoping to get a denial regarding the incest allegation on record, but instead, HWA had confessed to the incest.
This evidence would be incontrovertible.  But many ask, “Where is the tape?”  Who had heard it personally?  If someone claimed to, are they credible?
Art Mokarow is one individual who has publically stated that he had personally heard this tape.
5.     April 1984 Ambassador Report #27 "HWA confesses to incest".
This issue provided additional material beyond what David Robinson had mentioned and named others that were aware that the incest had taken place.  This was because Dorothy had told friends about the incest and that others had confirmed with HWA after reading David Robinson’s book.
Some excerpts:
The Armstrong organization, through surrogates, attempted to use the courts to block the distribution of the Robinson book but failed miserably (Ambassador Report, Sept. 1980). It is most remarkable, however, that in attempting to stop the distribution of the Robinson's book, never once was it asserted that the incest allegation was untrue. Nor did Dorothy Mattson, HWA's younger daughter, ever come forth to deny the incest story (and she has repeatedly refused to respond to queries from the Report regarding the matter). In spite of all this, it seems there are still some who prefer to believe that the incest story was fabricated. Let us briefly review the facts.
In 1971 Garner Ted Armstrong paid a visit to his younger sister Dorothy. He had long been suspicious of the kind of relationship his father and sister maintained during his youth. They chatted over a few drinks and then Ted told her bluntly of his suspicions. She did more than admit the allegations. With candor, she related detail after shocking detail.
For a number of years, GTA kept the information to himself. But Dorothy did not. She divulged the same information to many others including David Antion (GTA's brother-in-law) and Lois Chapman (who had been married to the late Richard Armstrong, Ted's older brother).
“The last meeting between GTA and his father in 1978 was not the only time HWA confessed to the incest allegation. In 1980 Henry Cornwall, then an aide to HWA, read the Robinson book soon after it appeared and asked HWA directly if the chapter on incest was accurate. HWA told him it was. He then instructed Cornwall that his wife Ramona was not to see the book or learn of the incest story. Unfortunately for Herbert, Ramona already had a copy of the book and was in the next room listening to the Cornwall-HWA discussion. Shortly thereafter, she too confronted HWA about the incest allegation. And once again, Herbert admitted it was true, but begged and pleaded with Ramona not to let this fact get in the way of their marriage. The cause of the problem, he said, had been Loma, his first wife.”
6.     Lakeland Ledger May 12, 1984 newspaper article about HWA’s divorce with Ramona mentions an “understanding” the couple reached about Armstrong’s “prior incestuous conduct with his daughter for many years.”

The reference within this article was quite significant to me.  This is not the type of comment a newspaper would make carelessly.  If the lawyer had spoken in error, it would be logical to expect that HWA's attorneys would have corrected the record. 
7.     April 19, 1993 Letter by Mark Thorton
Dear friends in the Worldwide Church of God,
In late November of 1992 I read an incredible account of Herbert Armstrong carrying on an incestuous relationship with his youngest daughter Dorothy from 1933 to 1943, the year she married Verne Mattson. Later, in January I read another account of it in a book by former WCG minister David Robinson. It was Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web published in 1980. At the time I discounted the story as fiction. But over the succeeding months leading up to last April 12, I'd learned of many other serious moral sins in the man's life. They were widely reported on by many former ministers who knew him.
But I still doubted the incest allegations -- that is until Mr. Gary Antion confirmed that they were entirely true when I talked with him after his sermon on the last day of Unleavened Bread, April 12. I'd asked him if he'd read David Robinson's book. He said he had. I told him that I'd read in another publication that Dorothy Mattson told his brother David Antion (a former WCG evangelist) all about the incest. (They were and are in-laws.) He nodded. I asked him if David ever said anything to him about it. "Yes," he said.
"What did he say?" I responded.
"He told me the story was true," he calmly said. "But before you get all upset and say how could he have done such a horrible thing, we should remember that we don't know what went on in his mind. We don't know if he repented or not. Maybe he repented in 1980 after David Robinson's book came out."
He went on to say that God gave king David time to repent and that if Mr. Armstrong repented, that he'll be in God's kingdom and if not, he won't be there. He also said he'd known about the whole thing in 1978. I asked if his brother David knew about this before he left the church in 1974 or after. He said David knew before. Antion was casual and relaxed with his words and never hesitated with any of the information.
He said that this should show us not to look to a man for our salvation which he said the church had done in the past. Finally, he asked me why I'm here; meaning the church. I said because I believe what the church believes, for the most part. He smiled, nodded and encouraged me not to let the matter bother me.
But as you can see, it does bother me a great deal. HWA claimed that God used him to raise up the Philadelphia era of His true Church beginning in 1933. I don't think so. In addition to raping his young daughter for many years, the "apostle" was widely known to have habitual sexual sins throughout his life including fornication, adultery, and masturbation. He frequently lied, misused church money, and had a serious drinking problem. And despite his appearing public image, Joe Tkach is not much of an improvement.
So there you have it. I've sung my swan song, thus ending nine years as a loyal WCG member.
By Mark Thornton (Wisconson)
April 19, 1993 (snail-mailed to 35-40 others, including ESN)

This letter is available at the following site:
8.     1997 letter from GTA in response to an inquiry about the incest

The Church of God International
Post Office Box 2530,
Tyler, Texas, 75710
Garner Ted Armstrong, Founder

July 28,1997
Dear Mr. (Name Withheld by Request),
I'm sorry, but I really have no comment about the very lengthy letter from Jack Kessler. The entire situation is completely moot at this time, of course. My father died at age 93 1/2 back in 1986, eleven years ago, and I certainly have no desire to resurrect a lot of ancient ghouls from their graves and engage in a lot of criticism involving the actions of individuals in that organization decades ago.
Nothing my father did, negative or positive, matters to my personal salvation, or to yours.
For the last twenty years, I have continued to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God as a witness and a warning to the world, and I have never engaged in the kind of spiritual "grave robbing" that exhumes ancient sins of fifty or sixty years ago, and attempts to defile and defame the memory of individuals who themselves are long since dead.
Sorry if this proves disappointing to you, but I simply have no further comment.
Garner Ted Armstrong

This letter comes across more as "I do not want to talk about it" than as an "It did not happen" response.  This letter proved nothing but it also did not contradict earlier statements made by GTA to others which acknowledged HWA had committed incest.
9.     Dec. 4, 1997 article in the Los Angeles New Times.

The article continues…
The thing that drove Carrozo and others to leave, however, was the leader's double standard regarding his own edicts. In accord with Armstrong's teaching, church members could visit doctors to obtain a diagnosis, but not (except in a few special cases) receive treatment. "As a pastor in the field, I had seen people die [for lack of medical attention]," Carrozo recalls. "And yet, as I came to find out, whenever he [HWA] became ill, he would slip away to a doctor for treatment." But such matters paled compared to another secret.
 According to former church officials, and the founder's own grandson, Richard David Armstrong II, Herbert's younger daughter, Dorothy, began to tell family and friends during the '70s that, years earlier, her father had molested her. John Tuit, an ex-church member living in North Carolina, recalls Garner Ted Armstrong telling him of his sister's startling revelation and that Herbert had not denied it when his son confronted him.
 The allegation surfaced publicly in a book written by David Robinson, a former Worldwide minister in Oklahoma. The church tried unsuccessfully to suppress it. Robinson recounted a bizarre late-night conversation with the then-widowed Herbert during a church festival in the Poconos. Armstrong, who had been drinking, was alleged to have confessed to Robinson that he had molested his daughter between 1933 and 1943. Then, to the astonishment of the younger minister, Armstrong was said to have produced a small black book in which he had carefully documented the many times he had masturbated, a practice he had frequently railed against from the pulpit. "It was a shattering experience for my dad," says Mark Robinson, a Dallas-area businessman, whose father died in 1995. "Until then, he had no reason to doubt Mr. Armstrong's spirituality."
 The issue arose again in 1984, during divorce proceedings between Armstrong and his second wife, Ramona Martin, a former switchboard operator 46 years his junior. The breakup, after seven years of marriage, was nasty. Armstrong, playing hardball, had accused her of stealing church property and was pressing criminal charges while refusing to bend to Ramona's demands for a large settlement, including a large amount of cash and the couple's sprawling ranch-style home in Tucson, Arizona. Until, that is, shortly before a court hearing at which her lawyers had threatened to introduce a purported "understanding" between Herbert and his wife regarding the alleged incest. The divorce was quickly settled to Ramona's satisfaction, and the criminal charges were dropped.
 Although damaging, the fallout from such disclosures didn't debilitate Worldwide for as long as Herbert was alive. The amicable and grandfatherly Armstrong continued to enjoy the adoration of rank-and-file members. Among those who heard about his shortcomings, many chose not to believe. "You blocked those kinds of things from your mind," recalls Joyce Renehan, who grew up in the church. (She and her husband, Bruce, left in the early '90s). "You might see a newspaper headline, but you were told not to read that stuff or Satan would get you and you'd be out of the church, and then where would you be?"
Looking back, it is amazing how ill-informed we church members were and/or how willing we were to avoid unpleasant facts stated by “outsiders”.
10.  1999 Letter from Bruce Renehan
Bruce Renehan had interviewed some members of the Church of God 7th Day who had reported that they were aware of the incest.
"I'm not exactly sure what constitutes proof to everyone. Before I began to author my book, my wife and I visited the Church of God, Seventh Day, both in Bakersfield and in Fresno. That is the church that Herbert Armstrong started attending in 1927. I first heard of the incest from some of their members, two of whom--Israel Hager and John Keiss--had known Armstrong in the 20s and 30s. Keiss, who was Armstrong's closest friend in the COG7 had actually discussed the incest with Dorothy Armstrong who confessed to him. Not wanting to believe hearsay from just one group, I placed a call to a friend of mine (Bob Mizell) in Pasadena. Bob was a very close friend to Joe Tkach Senior and, if anyone would know if the stories were true or not, he certainly would. Bob told me openly that both he and Joe Tkach had known about Armstrong's incest with his daughter and then he quickly brought up the David was a man after God's heart" ploy. "
The full letter is available at:
In the letter, Bruce Renehan comes across as sincere, specific, and credible.   
11.  Statement by Keith Hunt
"Oh indeed, the WCG was going to SUE Ambassador Report a NUMBER of times over the next years, especially over HWA having an affair with one of his daughters way back when, that came to light [and for those who still say it was all slander and lies; I personally heard GTA say he confronted his dad on the matter and HWA admitted it was so, saying, I was not always close to God"].  What was the reply from Ambassador Report to the WCG stating they were going to sue them, it was "Come on do so, will be happy to see you in court."  The WCG NEVER did sue Ambassador Report!!"
Keith’s comments about the incest allegation may be found at:
A direct confirmation from GTA is significant.
12.  WCG ministerial confirmations (various dates):
·      Many have reported that David Antion (GTA’s brother-in-law) has acknowledged that the incest occurred (apparently to all that are willing to ask).  
·      Art Mokarow had confirmed that HWA committed incest while in a public setting.   
·      Other COG ministers have acknowledged the rumor to be true when asked by members, including Gary Antion and at least one of the current UCG Council members (2016).

13.  2014 Interview of HWA’s niece Deborah
In a radio interview, Deborah related that the family had kept quiet about Dorothy to protect her.  Deborah’s mother had told her it was true.  She was also was told by her grandson.  Interestingly, Deborah noted that the only thing HWA had given her was a hand signed copy of his “Missing Dimension in Sex” book.

Start at minute 50:00. 

This admission by family members is significant and consistent.  It is difficult to imagine that Deborah would have been deceived about this or benefit from lying about it.

14.  2014 Interview of HWA’s grandson Larry Gott
In a radio interview, Larry Gott said that the incest was an accepted as fact within the family and that it had started when Dorothy was 14 or 15.    When asked, what kind of character was HWA, he said, “He was tyrannical… He was a person who craved and used authority over other people.  That was sort of the essence of him.    Nobody was really close to him – ever – including his wife.  He was an authoritarian and I would tell people that he was not completely honest with everybody about himself.”

Start at minute 1:01:20.

15.  Statement by Verne Mattson (Dorothy's husband)
A December 2015 letter to Exit Support Network related how one man's father had contacted Mr. Mattson to discuss the incest allegation and how that Verne had confirmed it. 
16.  Supplemental material related to above references
“Inconceivable” is how many feel about the allegation that HWA had committed incest during the beginning period of his ministry and this was also my own response upon first hearing about it from a WCG minister in 1995.  At the time, it seemed too convenient for the pro-Tkach people to bring this ugly rumor up just as individuals were deciding whether they should stay in WCG or leave.   If true, why had it not been a problem all along?   I gave the allegation no serious consideration for the next 15 years.
While researching the history of the church during the UCG/COGWA split, the allegations came up again and again.  It was unpleasant and again tempting to ignore but after confirming most of the allegations about financial impropriety in Ambassador Report and other books, and after reading mention of the incest in the Nov. 12, 1984 Lakeland Ledger newspaper article about HWA’s divorce, it made sense to consider the incest allegations more seriously. 
There was substantial ‘proof’ available on the internet but it required one to believe that the referenced individuals had really known and said what was being alleged.  Could these individuals just have been repeating an unfounded rumor as Bob Thiel had concluded, or was the rumor actually true?  I wanted to speak to somebody in person to remove the shadow of doubt.  In the end, it was possible to discuss the allegations with several individuals mentioned above:
1)    Al Corrozzo (July 2014 discussion at the UCG Doheny Beach activity).  Mr. Carrozzo confirmed that that he did author, and stood behind, what one could find credited to him on the Internet (e.g., “Al Carrozzo’s Resignation Letter to Ministry” and “The Profligate Son” post in Ambassador Report).  When asked about the incest allegation, he answered without pause, “Yes, that rumor is also true.”  He explained that he knew for certain because his good friend Art Mokarow had heard HWA confess on Floyd Lochner’s tape.
2)    Art Mokarow  (Dec. 2014 phone conversation).  After learning that, when asked in a public setting, Art Mokarow had confirmed the incest had occurred; I called Mr. Mokarow to determine if this report had been true and, if so, how had he known for certain.  Art said that he knew for certain that HWA was guilty of incest because he had heard his taped confession that had been recorded by his friend Floyd Lochner (confirming what Al had told me earlier that year).
3)    Keith Hunt (by phone in April 2015 phone conversation).  Mr. Hunt confirmed that he had personally heard about HWA’s incest directly from GTA.
4)    Art Mokarow (May 14th, 2016 phone conversation).  I re-read Bob Thiel's "proof" that the incest had not occurred" in 2016.  The statement about Art Mokarow backing away from his claim bothered me.  I again contacted Mr. Mokarow on May 14th, 2016.  Art did not back away from his statement at all.  Yes, he had heard the tape himself.  He also had heard Mr. Armstrong confess the incest directly to him to some of the other leading ministers.  This had occurred close to the time when David Robinson's allegations had surfaced and were being circulated.  Apparently, HWA had wanted to address the issue and move past it.  Essentially, he had said, "Yes the incest had occurred, I had not always been close to God, but I've repented and now I need to know who is going to continue to support me at this time?"  Some ministers stayed, Art Mokarow moved on. 
I believe this is likely why other ministers had felt comfortable in acknowledging the incest allegation to have been factual when asked by church members.
5)    David Antion (Dec. 2016 discussion after services in his Altadena congregation).   Mr. Antion confirmed much of what had been stated in AR#27, what Mr. Kessler had mentioned, and what had been documented elsewhere on various websites.  It was true that Mr. Armstrong had committed incest; that the abuse had begun around 1933, that the abuse led to incest and had continued into the early 1940’s; that Dorothy had confessed to family members, friends and specifically to David Antion (in 1979/80 when the charges became public); and that GTA had told other ministers.
All of the individuals above were found to be credible and their individual stories were consistent when evaluated as a whole.  These individuals were sincere and candid and spoke without bitterness.   Although most of the initial confirmations occurred close to the timing of the release of David Robinson’s book, these confirmations did not stem merely from David Robinson’s allegations as had been concluded by others.  It is logical that once the incest became public knowledge, many would have sought confirmation from members of HWA's family and that some of his family members would again discuss something that had been left unsaid for years.


Although a lot of information has been presented but it can be easily summarized:

·      Dorothy had spoken about the incest to family and some of her friends long ago

·      Dorothy had also confessed to John Keiss of the Church of God 7th Day

·      GTA had learned about the incest from Dorothy in 1971

·      Keith Hunt had heard about it directly from GTA in the early 1970’s

·      Mr. Robinson heard about it from GTA other family members in 1979

·      HWA confessed to Art Mokarow and other top ministers (and Dorothy had spoken with David Antion about the incest) in 1979/80 just before the release of Mr. Robinson’s book

·      Mr. Robinson published Herbert Armstrong’s Tangled Web in 1980

·      Floyd Lochner recorded HWA after he heard the allegation

·      Art Mokarow had heard HWA confess the incest on the Lochner tape

·      Al Corrozo confirmed that Art Mokarow had heard the tape

·      Jack Kessler had heard the rumors, and learned about the Lochner tape, in 1980 and then had asked HWA directly about the rumors and HWA admitted to the incest

·      Ramona's lawyers mentioned HWA’s incest in the divorce trial in 1981

·      GTA did not refute the allegation when asked in writing in 1997

·      HWA's niece Deborah had learned about the incest from her mother long ago and recently confirmed this during a 2014 radio interview  

·      HWA's grandson Larry Gott stated that the incest was an accepted fact within the family and did so during a 2014 radio interview

Conclusion:  Was there a big conspiracy to denigrate HWA’s character or were the allegations factual?  Simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones.  After looking into this topic in greater detail, it became clear that the allegations were factual.  I found no reason to fault the credibility of Al Corrozo, Art Mokarow, Jack Kessler, Keith Hunt, Deborah, David Antion, and Larry Gott on this subject.



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Anonymous said...

And we fully expect The Journal to run this article in its entirety in the very next issue. Gee, that would be in March or so, just before the Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread.

This would lead all the Armstrongists, especially the leaders, into a deeper repentance, appropriate to the season....

Anonymous said...

No, this is not an evaluation of the "rumors" of HWA's incest; it's a compendium of exact, condemning evidence.

Too many diverse people, over decades, have known of and expressed Armstrong's vile sexual sins. Not merely a handful of isolated, incidental accounts.

When I was in WCG, when the subject so infrequently arose, it was excused with the explanation that God often chose men of powerful sexual “appetites,” such as David, who committed adultery and murder as a result.

How convenient. We were to regard Armstrong as a contemporary David.

That, he was not. David repented of his sexual sin and never repeated it. Armstrong committed his sins against his own daughter for up to ten years.

Byker Bob said...

A silver bullet to Armstrongism would be some sort of information or event, that, the moment it became available, everyone who had ever been involved with Armstrongism in its entire history would realize that it was totally bogus to the extent of having no alternative but to leave.

This is a great article, an awesome compilation of information, and with some additional personal touches added by Kevin that were previously unavailable.

Is it the silver bullet which could lead to the final demise of Armstrongism? No. And not through any inherent faults of its own. The problem is not with the material within the article, but with what happens in readers' minds as they attempt to process it, and to find personal applications and implications within their own lives.

We are dealing with people who have been persuaded to accept that the founder of their religion is no different from the leaders of the New Testament, that he is the great restorer of truths last taught 2,000 years ago, that listening to him is like listening to Jesus Himself, that he was sent to mankind to preside over the end times, and as the gatekeeper for the place of safety, and to the kingdom. This goes way beyond servant leadership, and assumes power and status far above Billy Graham's pay grade, or even the stature of the Pope or any other modern teachers of Christianity. It is a marked departure from the ways in which ministers and leaders have traditionally been regarded or esteemed by their followers. If we were looking for a parallel, HWA was regarded in WCG and the splinters with every bit the intensity that Mohammed or the Imans are accorded by Muslims.

For most such people, there can be no silver bullet. They will go to their graves believing that any wrong doing by their "apostle" whom they imagine will be the first raised from the dead, is simply impossible, fiction concocted by Satan, and totally irrelevant to their journey. For them, believing such evil of HWA would be akin to believing that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had some sort of secret tryst.

Now, if your could find a silver bullet appropriate to that level of programming, you'd really have something. By making him superhuman, elevating him into the spiritual realm, in their minds, his followers ("oh, but I don't follow a man!") have placed him above all or this, and immune to even armor piercing silver bullets.


Gerald Bronkar said...

Wow!! Or as Kool and the Gang might say, "Get Down On It".

This is difficult to refute or ignore, but sadly many will never be swayed from their blind faith.

Thanks Kevin, good report.

This site is a source of valuable information, revealing the greed and dishonesty of religious leaders. They love feeling superior, being worshiped, and using your money to live the good life.

The Painful Truth said...

Anyone who has a financial stake in the armstrong franchise must insist to the point of outright lying that the allegations are not true. Its like pizza hut saying their pizzas are made with dog shit. Who would buy into that?

For Bob Thiel or Billingsley, they rely heavily on the fallacy of HWA. Its a living for one and a way of life for the other. Take your pick as to the reason people deny the incest and you will learn a great deal about them. Take a look at those such as myself who insist that the incest issue is true. The proof is in the testimony of two or three witnesses in the bible. In a court of law here in the USA the proof would have lead to HWA's conviction. So what's the big issue? Credibility and money. The driving forces of maintaining HWA's tarnished credentials.

At some point the Journal needs to seriously investigate this subject. Even if it costs them their readership. Moral integrity is not something we can skimp on.

Anonymous said...

I was one of the many people harmed by the 1975 prediction. So when I went to God in prayer with a suspicious regarding the date, He answered my prayer. The suspicion was that the 1975 prediction was a attempt by HWA to manipulate and coerce God into returning early in order to cover up the failure of communism at that time. The holy spirit confirmed my suspicion.
Hence Herbie tried to use God as a instrument to destroy billions of people in order to protect a false ideology. If this doesn't qualify for monster status, then tell me what does.
True. I cannot prove this allegation. I don't even ask anyone to believe me. What I do ask is that Christians check with God themselves. I know that there are Christians whose prayers God answers.
By comparison, Herbies incest is insignificant.

NO2HWA said...

I don't know what is going on with the formatting. Google Blogger seems to have having issues. Or perhaps it is Satan attacking this great work. Who knows...

Anonymous said...

incest, racism, child and spousal abuse are as american as, well you know what i am saying...

indeed, if hwa was guilty of such a thing as incest (he certainly was a bigot, as were most white americans of his generation), he should have repented, and if he repented Christ has Forgiven cuz there is no sin that Christ cannot Forgive except for the sin of blasphemy against the Spirit that Forgives...

Byker Bob said...

Thing is, we were once told that cover-ups were part of what "the world" does. The implication was that in "God's Church", wrong things are not done because the ministry is guided by a double portion of the Holy Spirit. About the time that it came from the other side of their mouths that there had been a massive cover-up of Garner Ted's sins, that line of thinking should have gone completely out the window.


Anonymous said...

Since when has Bob Thiel had any moral integrity? He has lied about his "double blessing" his dreams, etc. He self appointed himself. God is not a part of the picture. Everything about the man is a lie.

Anonymous said...

Lets see how Bob Thiel lies about this again.

Anonymous said...

I have had this discussion with a loyal brain dead Armstrongist. She took it in stride, believed that he committed incest and went right on, as Byker Bob said, that she doesn't follow men -- and believes that he led us to the truth. This is compartmentalization to the extreme -- and that IS the problem. Forget cognitive dissonance: What really happens is most people have these little compartments where they store things in their brain and one thing just doesn't 'leak' into another compartment (that was how the Titanic was SUPPOSED to work!).

For those of us rare folks who CANNOT compartmentalize, this is glaring and CANNOT be ignored. Neither compartmentalization, nor cognitive dissonance can occur. It's like those people who have a fourth cone in their eye for yellow -- and research discloses that the color yellow irritates them. Same thing here.

As for the David defense, there's another little problem: Qualifications for the New Testament ministry are different from the Old Testament hero leaders. Those O.T. leaders could get away with murder. The ministry simply cannot be excused. In fact...

I worked along side a man who was president of his 700 member Lutheran church. There was a youth minister who committed adultery on his wife. The Senior Pastor gave a carefully worded Scriptural sermon explaining to the congregation who a minister, even one as popular as the youth minister, could not be allowed to continue as a minister in that capacity. The youth minister 'lost his job' and was NOT allowed to be not just a youth minister, but a minister of any kind. What Herbert Armstrong was much much worse, and as pointed out in David Robinson's book, if Herbert Armstrong was caught and convicted in the State of Texas at the time, he would have gotten the death penalty and been executed. As it was, if he had been convicted and sent to prison, he probably would not have lasted very long because of prison justice. Sure, the prison convicts are mostly very bad people, but even among them, this is so bad a crime among them that they will kill off the perpetrators.

That the Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia membership routinely accepts this is a sign that they are corrupted beyond redemption with a seared conscience that doesn't equal that of convicted felons. This is a terrible indictment against them.

Furthermore, the CGI who had Garner Ted Armstrong over them as their leader are in almost as bad a state as those who accept Herbert Armstrong's incest: Their leader was shown trying to commit adultery on international television. In the aftermath, they weren't quite sure how to take it and were most perplexed.

Look folks, it's simple. Why don't you just follow I Corinthians 5? You know, in area, we had a stalker in the WCG / UCG stalking a woman for 7 years -- and she was married. The Council of Elders refused to do anything to help the victim and actually galvanized the membership against her and her husband and at the hearing in front of the judge, two deacons, two elders and a deaconess helped and supported the stalker against the victim. The judge had none of it and issued a restraining order, but you have to ask WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE???!!!

What is wrong is that Herbert Armstrong was not converted and not fit for the ministry and should have been booted out. But you know, the CoG7D ministry knew about him and THEY DID NOTHING. The CoG7D really doesn't have any complaint coming.

It should be clear that NOTHING Herbert Armstrong taught is valid. Forget the Feasts, forget British Israelism, forget his false prophecies which will NEVER happen. If there is a Devil, he was certainly of Satan and none of you Armstrongists today should be following one thing he said. If you believe you are Christians, you should very well seek out those who have a valid ministry and stop wasting your time on an unconvicted felon.

Hoss said...

While I don't remember when I became aware of the incest issue, I recall the morning when I read Bob Thiel's "Not Guilty" post. There was flack from other blogs about his reaction to GTA's indirect way of saying "none of your business". And at the time, Bob was just an ordinary LCG member.

It seems the question is with some, how would Bob have reacted if GTA had confirmed the accusation?

And by the way, Bob's frequently posted photo of HWA - I told him directly and on blogs what a bad choice it was, from a promotional point of view. The feature of the photo is HWA's Sacred Treasure honor from Emperor Hirohito. It's an award from an unprosecuted war criminal, featuring pagan symbolism. It definitely would not endear any Chinese or Koreans to the CCOG...

Martha said...

A wise acquaintance of mine recently pointed out the following to me on this topic:

It it not appropriate to hold HWA and David to the same standard for sexual indiscretion. Regardless of the difference in the distastefulness of the indiscretions, there is a larger issue that makes them apples and oranges.

David was a national leader, not a spiritual leader. Nathan the priest was the spiritual leader at the time of David's sin. David's brand of sin should be nearly inexcusable in a national leader, yet God did not remove David from his office as He did Saul. It's my understanding that the Bible is not clear on how to handle the sins of national leaders.

But the Bible seems to speak very clearly as to what we should expect from our SPIRITUAL leaders, and HWA was clearly a spiritual leader. The so-called "David defense" mixes apples and oranges.

My church recently called home, and to some extent, publicly disgraced a church-planting overseas missionary it had sent out a few years ago. Apparently, he committed adultery while serving in his position, which was financially supported by the church. Not only did they force him to resign, but they made his very honest resignation letter available upon request to its membership - his home congregation.

Now, some people have questioned whether this was appropriate, given that the couple has children and also parents and siblings in the congregation. They were discreet in their public statement but the resignation letter pulled no punches. I'm mixed but I can see the wisdom in holding spiritual leaders publicly accountable for their sins.

It's refreshing to see a church that holds leaders accountable to New Testament standards of conduct and uphold exhortations not to give enemies reason to slander Christ. Truth be told, I can much easier get behind a church that takes a tough stance like this rather than uses the failings of an Israelite king to downplay reasonably founded incest claims against the man who was its founder, spiritual leader and architect of its theology - based on claims that Jesus directly taught him during the period HWA was alleged to be committing incest.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

My complements to Kevin. A job well done. This is the best organization of information on this subject matter ever written to date to date. If it were used in a civil trial where the standard is lower, the preponderance of evidence Kevin presents renders HWA liable and responsible for committing incest. If it were used in a criminal trial where the standards are higher with “beyond a shadow of doubt”, I also think there is enough evidence presented to convict HWA of incest with a guilty verdict.

I have another source to add to this summary of evidence – if you can find it. While employed by the Church of God, International (CGI) – a WCG splinter he founded when he was ousted from the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) in 1978, Garner Ted Armstrong wrote many booklets in which CGI held the copyright. This was before GTA created “The Garner Ted Armstrong Evangelistic Association”. I guess Garner Ted created the Association after being ousted from CGI for his sexual sins because he got tired of writing material for the incorporated Church organizations (WCG, CGI) only to be ousted and the intellectual written material which he authored benefiting Churches he either helped build or founded lost to him for his use. Consider the many booklets and articles he authored in WCG. By the time the grossly misnamed “Intercontinental Church of God” was founded by him, he created the Association to place the intellectual rights into the Association in case he ever got ousted again. Though I digress here, Garner Ted wrote a booklet in the CGI that related the history of the Church of God, International. It may even be titled that. I once had the booklet. In that booklet, Garner Ted Armstrong confirms that he confronted his father about “F$%king Dorothy”. GTA communicated to HWA that “he could destroy him”. GTA also said upon uttering those words, that he knew it was over with his father, and the two never reconciled or spoke to one another again.

If anyone has the Church of God, International booklet I am referring to, perhaps they can forward to Kevin to complete the case of Incest against Herbert W. Armstrong.

Lake of Fire Church of God

Anonymous said...

How ironic that David Robinson's grandson, John Robinson, was stripped of his eldership last year by Rod Meredith, a man who, based on eyewitness testimony over the years, has unresolved issues around homosexuality and pornography. Did David's grandson John know too much?

RSK said...

To my knowledge, I never heard about HWA and incest during the period I was in WCG (birth to 15 years old). Seems almost odd now that I didn't hear it as a rumor when I was a teenager, because you know teenage boys really love their toilet humor, and they love irreverence. But then again, I only knew about Ramona from flipping the pages of Against the Gates of Hell and seeing her picture.
I found out about it years later via a book.

Hoss said...

Martha re: "David defense"

Despite what HWA and RCM may have said, no one is above the law.

And as in the case of the woman caught in adultery in John 8, there were no legal eyewitnesses to David and Bathsheba's affair. And Uriah's murder may have been considered a poor tactical decision on David's part.

The closest thing to an eyewitness to HWA's deed was the hotel manager who is said to have investigated the noise Dorothy was making. He could have investigated HWA's claim that the noise was due to an inexperienced young bride.

Byker Bob said...

There are probably some readers out there who feel that dissidents go way too far in critiquing or bashing HWA. Some have even attributed what they view as this "extremeness" to Satan, attempting to destroy "God's work". They've expressed that that is the real reason HWA garners reactions similar to those expressed regarding Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, or Jim Jones. They think it is totally disproportionate.

But they are wrong. What they are seeing is "Newton's equal and opposite reaction." Church lore, the ministers, and HWA himself have gone to such an extreme in creating in HWA a quasi-Biblical figure that the equal and opposite reaction becomes an extreme which you would never see in discussions of nearly any other religious figures. So, drink lots of water, folks. Truly, that is the only remaining teaching of HWA's that has any value. (Hat tip to Ian Boyne for the reminder)


Anonymous said...

So, drink lots of water, folks. Truly, that is the only remaining teaching of HWA's that has any value.

A good and vigorous towel-rubdown after your daily shower. That's another of HWA's teachings that has great value.

Martha said...

Oh, no, Hoss, I didn't mean that David was above the law. Clearly the repercussions from that affair created lasting problems in his life. Some even posit that Ahithophel, David's brilliant, early military advisor, may have been Bathsheba's grandfather (2 Samuel 23:34 lists Ahithophel as Eliam's father. Bathsheba's father also was named Eliam and lived in that general time period). Ahithophel turned against David during Absalom's revolt and is credited with much of his success, according to my understanding.

As I've always heard it told, the "David defense" is this: David was a man after God's own heart, a man whom God chose to lead Israel and never deposed like He did Saul. A man who will rule in the Kingdom and from whose family sprang the Savior. Yet he committed adultery with Bathsheba, murdered her husband and married her while Uriah's body was barely cold.

So if God used and will use a man like David so mightily, why would we think God wouldn't use a man like HWA? Granted, he generally displayed terrible fruit, broke up marriages and even compared some of his followers to human waste. And even if he did commit a horrible sexual sin, if God used David, He could use HWA to restore truth and establish His church. Mentions of how God used people like Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus usually soon follow.

Now that's a ringing endorsement for you.

Anonymous said...

My urologist told me I was overhydrated. It turns out that Americans have been convinced to drink far more water than they really should. It's not good for you.

So again, Herbert Armstrong's advice is wrong.

Ed said...

I tend to believe that HWA was guilty of incest. However even if he wasn't he was a disgusting person because of all the lives he destroyed. What perplexes me is that there are thousands of Armstrongites that still hold on to his religion. How could God have revealed his "truths" through such a disgusting person?

Byker Bob said...

Sad, isn't it Douglas? Can't find a single damned thing, even when we try to give him the benefit of doubt. So, aside from learning not to be conned, there was nothing of value. Except perhaps the laughter shared with a man in an island-nation thousands of miles away.


Anonymous said...

King David over all had a good character. Herbie overall had a bad character. I call HWA, Herbert Balaam Armstrong. Like Balaam, he was right about some things.

Michael said...

BlackOpsMikey wrote:
"My urologist told me I was overhydrated. It turns out that Americans have been convinced to drink far more water than they really should. It's not good for you."

Indeed, the latest word from the medical community for optimal hydration is surprisingly simple: "Drink when you're thirsty".

Kind of like what every animal in the world does naturally.

Hoss said...

Another point on the "David defense": from what we were told, David and Bathsheba had a one-time fling and they were a bit careless, whereas HWA carried on his little family affair for years.

When I wanted to reconcile HWA being used as "restorer of lost truths" with his way of life, I used his story of the poor woman praying for bread. Some boys overheard her, and tossed a loaf of bread in the window. When the woman gave thanks, the boys told her they gave her the bread. Her remark was "God gave the bread, but had the Devil deliver it." I no longer consider HWA as having been used to restore truths...

Anonymous said...

I've been watching protestant televangelists, listening to their radio programmes and reading their literature. What strikes me is the similarity to the church Herbie established. They share the same major distortions such as a taboo on self love, rights, assertiveness, productivity and justice. Herbie obviously looked to these protestant churches rather than the bible as his reference. It's distortions such as teaching blind robotic obedience to ministers, rather than assertiveness, that is most damning. Incest, disgusting as it is, didn't harm others. His monster lies did.

The Painful Truth said...

January 8, 2017 at 2:54 AM writes:

"Incest, disgusting as it is, didn't harm others. His monster lies did."

Bullshit. The child suffers not only physical pain but psychological pain that will follow them to their dying day.

Anonymous said...

Hi all. This is king David. I've been temporarily resurrected so that I can address this issue on Banned. Thank you Hoss for your kind words, telling the readers that it was a one-time fling with Bathsheba. But we both know that I was a pathological fornicator, having had 300 mistresses (the ones with whips were a challenge). Since lust is never satisfied, I ended up shagging Bathsheba as well. Another consequence of being a shaggaholic, is that my son Solomon followed my example, ending up with 1000 mistresses (he must have had a strong back). As the saying goes in American politics, 'if a man can't be faithful to his wife, how can he be faithful to the constitution.' Meaning, Solomon having 1000 mistresses, destroyed his ability to be faithful to Gods way. So the wisest man ever (next to Christ), ended up losing his eternal life. God also took the kingdom (except one tribe) from him.
All because I couldn't keep it in my pants.
I gotta go, farewell everyone.

Unknown said...

There is more evidence for HWAs incest, than there is for British Israelism.

Anonymous said...

No atheists were hurt concerning the HWA revelations.

Jim Baldwin

Anonymous said...

7.00 AM
Perhaps I could have been more clear. But why did I use the word disgusting unless incest injured its victim. My point is that Herbs incest did not directly harm church members, whereas his lies did. And these lies did many times more harm than the crime of incest. Many lives have been irreparably damaged. This site would not exist otherwise.

Pam said...

To Richard of the "Lake of Fire Church of God" ...

I WISH your memory of GTA being open about his confrontation with Herbert about the incest in one of his writings for the CGI was correct! But no, I think you are conflating it with another narrative from some other narrator. Perhaps the material in Ambassador Report
#27? (see link below) Or maybe from several sources, including the account of that fateful meeting in the Tangled Web book? I've seen several versions over the years by various authors. And yes, I remember the article GTA wrote early on about how he ended up starting the CGI.

I was with the CGI from its first year, and my husband was ordained in the org in 1980 and pastored a congregation there until we wised up and left in 1988. I had every piece of literature they ever published up until we left, every letter GTA ever sent out, audio and/or video tapes of every sermon and bible study given by him and others in Tyler, and so on. I would definitely remember if he had actually put the incest allegation in his own description of that confrontation incident! I knew about the incident myself from the Tangled Web book that I purchased shortly after it was published in 1980.

In reality, Ted never officially wrote or spoke publicly of the incest, even though he did say very strong negative things about his dad in his earliest period of the CGI. By the end of his life, he totally quit saying negative things at all, and "bragged" about being the son of Herbert Armstrong, using it as part of his "resume'" in public relations materials sent out by his Intercontinental COG!

Here's the link to the relevant portion of the Ambassador Report # 27 story from the Painful Truth website. This is the version that mentions that GTA associate Benny Sharp is the one who was out in the hallway and heard the confrontation between the two Armstrongs. It also is the one that included the salacious detail about Herbert tying Dorothy up in a motel one time.

Painful Truth "Herbert Confesses" material

The confrontation is described, in less detail, on page 266 of Tangled Web. (I have several hardcopies of that book, and a PDF file of the whole thing.)

Byker Bob said...

8:16, what are you talking about? Those incest sins killed Jesus Christ!


nck said...

"Bullshit. The child suffers not only physical pain but psychological pain that will follow them to their dying day."

And it apparantly brings them a lifelong income, houses paid for, audiences and entertainment with world leaders, a job for future husbands and a free education for their children.........


Anonymous said...

Many Ambassador Senior men attended the grouped Dinners hosted by Herbert Armstrong at his home. At these dinners a number of the men would hear Herbert complain about his poor sex life in marriage...disgracing his deceased wife, his marriage and quite frankly raising the question "What was he trying to justify"? Normal men don't complain about their married sex lives to total strangers...! Something was seriously wrong here!

Anonymous said...

At the website is a 35-page paper refuting the allegations against Herbert Armstrong and the incest accusations. Well worth the read. Look for the link titled "HWA: Herbert W Armstrong Did NOT Commit Incest!"

Byker Bob said...

I like to look for parallels and trends within the movement. Anyone who visits Mike's Ron Weinland False Prophet blog has seen posts from any number of former members of PKG stating that their eyes were opened, and they left PKG following their reading of the official court transcripts from Weinland's tax evasion trial.

So, what comparisons and conclusions might we draw?

First, Ron Weinland, though his church members call him an apostle, was not the originator of the movement. Based strictly on numbers, he is a minor bit player, a descendant and aspiring heir to the movement. Still, once his "mistake" was documented by the judicial system, that was sufficient to cause an unknown minority percentage of his members to leave. We must also note that Weinland didn't just have 1972-75 on the negative side of his ledger, he had set multiple dates which failed, yet continues to this day to revise and to set new dates.

I believe that in terms of damage control, Stan Rader, Ralph Helge, and Alan Brown always used brilliant strategy in steering HWA through the court systems. Through their various ploys, they never allowed the incest to become proven in court. Even though much church money may have ultimately gone to Ramona, the option of deniability of the incest was carefully preserved, at least to the extent that WCG and the then future splinter group members would find credible.

Still, this, in tandem with doctrinal, prophetic, ethical, and fiduciary matters has caused significant numbers of members to leave the Armstrong churches over the decades. Normally, we don't pay much attention to those who actually have left. We tend to focus on those who are still "at risk" because they have not, and we wonder and speculate the whys.

At this point in time, most likely the splinter members would be affected to a greater extent by the current events in their own remnant groups, and would be making their cost-benefit analyses based primarily on those conditions. So long as they see the benefits outweighing the costs or negatives, they are somewhat immunized to certain trunks of the tree, such as the incest, British Israelism, prophecy failure, and New Covenant vs Old Covenant issues. Continuing our hypothetical gun analogy, the silver bullet, if it could be found, would not be as effective as a scatter gun in resolving the Armstrong problem.


Jack said...

Well, that makes 3 or more witnesses to incest.
It was incest that the Canaanites were famous for. We know what God wanted done with them.
As for Garner ted saying it was of no more consequence: This is what another liar and sexual deviant would say of course. His own butt was on the line. But God would not and did not use a sex pervert as any kind of apostle, let alone a minister who must be above reproach as per the New Testament guide lines. The incest totally disqualified Herbert Armstrong as any kind of minister at all. This then disqualifies all he taught since you cannot eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and one does not get good fruit off a bad tree.
The religious legacy of Armstrong is completely bogus on that alone not to mention that his doctrines can be refuted by anyone who is willing to read scripture without twisting them as the WCG does. (This is translated wrong, comma in wrong pace, this doesn't really mean what it says, etc.)

Anonymous said...

What was seriously wrong here was that many of us actually followed this weirdo and believed his convoluted doctrinal theology.
We read and proved the booklets but not the bible. We really never gave our former churches a chance to prove their points to us at all. We were rebels looking for a cause and the church provided it.
We were "different", better than the rest of the world. We had secret knowledge (Gnosticism) woo hoo!
We gave HWA the power and the money to fool and lead astray so many.
We did not believe the plain truth of Jesus Christ: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead you WILL BE SAVED".
Too easy we wanted to work for our salvation so we could say, look what I've done!

I am done with the so-called churches of God and their half truths, lies, leaving out whole paragraphs from the church fathers to prove silly conjectures.
Done, done, done.

Pam said...

OK... HERE is a story I have NEVER read before! The author of this claims his own father--a former WCG member and then a PCG member... CALLED VERN MATTSON on the phone in 2010 after Dorothy died, and asked him pointblank about the matter... and got an answer. A detailed answer. I have no reason to doubt this author's veracity. Excerpt from the Exit and Support Network website story below the link. See the whole letter at the link for more details.

Shocking Words That Herbert Armstrong Told His Daughter Dorothy


Vern Mattson said, over the years, with all that's out there now, on these computers, David Robinson's book, and plenty others written by his top ministers; he said, you got the Ambassador Report, full of documented facts and dates, exposing all the lies, mishandling of money, the incest with his own daughter. When I found out what he had done to my wife when she was just a young girl, you see we raised a daughter too, this was his own daughter, scaring and hurting her like that, over and over again, I was going to kill him!

I won't forget her words, years ago, when she asked me, how could a great and loving God go against Himself like that, by calling a man to raise up His "one and only true Church," a man that would hurt his own daughter like that?

To all the fathers out there who have a daughter, your little girl, how would you answer that?

I can tell you how Herbert Armstrong answered that, because of the last thing Vern Mattson told my dad on the phone that day, something he said, he has never forgotten.

His wife, Dottie [Dorothy], told him of an incident that had happened back in the late `30s or so, that he could never ever repeat, but what he could say, was that she was pleading with her father one night, she wanted it to stop. (Herbert Armstrong had her in a hotel room, and her voice was overheard by others, and a person who worked there came knocking on their door, wondering if anything was wrong?) His reply, his answer--the man we so strongly believed in--his answer when my wife, his daughter, his little girl, cried out to him, was:

"God gave you to me and it is my job to teach you. This will help you to be a better wife someday."

Michael said...

Anon wrote:
" Hi all. This is king David. I've been temporarily resurrected so that I can address this issue on Banned. Thank you Hoss for your kind words, telling the readers that it was a one-time fling with Bathsheba. But we both know that I was a pathological fornicator, having had 300 mistresses (the ones with whips were a challenge). Since lust is never satisfied, I ended up shagging Bathsheba as well."

It's comments like these that make Banned all the more worth reading :-)

Anonymous said...

The sin of David was not Bathsheva but Uriah.

All soldiers wives in Israel given a "Get" before battle. A retroactive divorce in case husband goes MIA and to prevent her being "chained" to him forever until he is found or comes home.
Therefore Uriah and Bathsheva were divorced while he fought. The sin was in David using that excuse to take another man's woman and then sending him into a suicide battle to die. It was dirty dealing and a shirking of responsibility as David knew it would mar his reputation for although it was not considered the letter of adultery it was pushing awfully close to it.

As for mistreses. they were concubines or sex slaves. God never intended for men to do such garbage but knew they would in a fallen world which God left pretty much to its own devices. He did therefore enact laws of protection for these women.
Did they work? Somewhat. Again it depended on the character of the man.
David had nothing to fear from mistresses with whips but they had a lot to fear from David's whips. They were subject to severe punishments.

The upshot is that the world outside of Eden is a nasty, dangerous place just as God warned.
The bible chronicles just how bad it can get.

Barbara said...

Sorry but imagining HWA, pudgy, dough belly that he was, having sex with anyone is just gag worthy.
Nothing and I mean nothing more disgusting than a doughy beer belly coming at you in sex.
Ugh. vomit.. gag.

Hoss said...

Mikey wrote: Americans have been convinced to drink far more water than they really should

Bob Thiel tends to hydrate a lot during his sermons. But it's only my assumption that he's drinking water. Anyway, it's another conspicuous distraction.

Byker Bob said...

In many cases, Barbara, older guys that haven't kept up on their physical fitness routines end up like Tony Soprano----taken advantage of by Russian ladies looking for a meal ticket. By the time HWA got around to working out with Dr. Lochner, he was pretty much beyond hope or repair.


Unknown said...

Someone posted a link above of a site that supposedly exonerates HWA

It dismisses everyone as being "hearsay" and that no family members had come forward directly. It was dated 2013.

Since that time, two intimate Armstrong family members have been recorded and heard on the internet that the incest accusation was COMMON KNOWLEDGE within the Armstrong family. What other proof is needed?

Armstrong didn't just molest his daughter with his selfish carnal desires, all of us were molested by his sociopathic decrees and demands in the church. The man was an abject FAILURE in every sense of the word.

Anonymous said...

Somewhat better formatting at">

Anonymous said...

And... doesn't exist so the links in this posting go nowhere.

There is a -- but nothing that speaks to this particular issue.

Here is a link to Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web if anyone is interested.

Anonymous said...

So Ladies and Gentlemen, WHY WAS HE NOT IN PRISON, when there is these great evidence that he committed:


or has he bought the law? No, this is not about HWA, it is never about him, it is about disproving the bible and that it is all a LIE. That is the OBJECTVE.

Question is, who's objective?

RSK said...

Bahahahahaha! Thank you Barbara, now I can't unsee that.

RSK said...

No witnesses at the time of the alleged crime were willing to turn him in, duh. What kind of dumb question was that? Go to the foot of the class.

The rest of your silly hyperbole about this somehow being about "disproving the bible", I don't know about.

Anonymous said...

and if the whole thing is true, how does it negate God's commandments?

do anyone think they will get a pass because HWA did a terrible thing?

nck said...


I said about the same thing at 9:22.
Not only did they not turn him in they lived well of it and the children got a free education too. (for what it's worth but that is another discussion)

If we are prepared to trash the man on the "evidence" presented than we might aswell trash the family members who received benefits after "the fact" aswell. just might not have happened or not in the way presented.

Well I know women were a different breed at that time. Hell, Jennifer Aniston today, is the same age Ethel Merman started Archie Bunker.


Byker Bob said...

Note: "God's Commandments" is ACOG code for the Old Covenant, unexpanded sabbath.

Also, 11:19 obviously still equates HWA and Armstrongism with the Bible. Actually, there's something much better for us than the HWAcaca. HWA did a terrible thing because he wasn't what he said he was. Good fruit can't come from a bad tree. He was b-b-b-b-bad to the bone, and it was all a scam.


nck said...

I mean JA is older than Caroll O C. when she debuted in All in the Family.

Different times I guess.


Anonymous said...

RSK,"No witnesses at the time of the alleged crime were willing to turn him in" do you think these kind of accusations, sensitive criminal acts, highly publicized will not reach the ears of the law? Oh, a RAVEN CAME TODAY. It does not need Lochner Tapes and embittered ambitious ministers to get HWA to suffer in PRISON if that satisfies you all. What about the receivership? The law was in the hots for HWA, SEX WITH A MINOR would be enough to eliminate him. Sorry, but I refuse to be a dimwit.

Martha said...

No, it's not "all about disproving the Bible".

It's about freeing people from the spiritual cage in which they have been trapped when they bought HWA's hodge-podge, fear-based theology. (2 Timothy 1:7)

It's about proving that his interpretation of the Bible was shallow, ignorant and was intended to cow his followers into submission, or else. (Ephesians 4:18).

It's about demonstrating that there is no evidence that HWA ever spoke for God, and therefore you have no reason to fear him or those whom he groomed to take his place. (Deuteronomy 18:22)

Believe it or not, I accept the Bible. I study the Bible regularly, much more frequently and more deeply than I ever did when I was in the COGs. You can read what I and others like me, have learned at We feel called to share and explain exactly BECAUSE we reject his teachings but still accept the Bible. It's why many have contributed to this blog over the years.

I don't think the Bible is a lie. I just don't accept the shallow, ignorant interpretation of a man who showed no evidence that God worked through him. By their fruits you shall know them. If the fruit of this man resembled the fruit of the Spirit in any way, gave any evidence of his conversion, we would not be having such a lengthy discussion on this topic.

Martha said...

Don't believe that the COGs lock you in spiritual bondage and, eventual isolation? This sad comment on another post here at Banned demonstrates my point exactly. This demonstrates the end result of a sincere, conservative following of HWA's theology:

"I was disfellowshipped from LCG for silly reasons. I used to help take care of a widow who remains in LCG. She was a daily part of my life for years. We were like family.

After I was disfellowshipped she sent a letter stating that she loved me and was sad that she would "no longer be able to spend time" with me.

I couldn't believe it.

I ran into her about 18 months later at the grocery store and she cried. She shared how much she loves and misses me but said that she can't risk continuing our friendship because she's old and it would be too hard to make a new life if Rod Meredith ever found out that she was fellowshipping with me.

So, because of Rod Meredith, this elderly widow has no one to shovel her driveway, get her oil changed, change her air filters, take her to the Feast, take care of her, etc.

Because of Rod Meredith, the next time I see this lady, whom I love dearly, she will be lying in a coffin.

Rod Meredith is a destroyer of lives and families.
Rod Meredith is the OPPOSITE OF LOVE. "

Also this:

Also, let it be known that, while I attended the COGs for decades, I attended an LCG service exactly once and have no bone to pick, personally speaking, with them.

Martha said...

NCK, I guess plastic surgery and salons have come a long way since then. On the other hand, I suspect JA is a long way from being typecast for roles like Edith Bunker.

Then again, there's something to be said for good genes. Consider Sophia Loren or Hellen Mirren. Maybe JA won the genetic lottery as well.

Either way, the rest of us ladies are in trouble.

Byker Bob said...

At least logic and analytical thinking is prevailing amongst those who believe the incest did take place. Nobody has claimed that God confirmed the incest in their prayers, or that they had a vision of HWA and Dorothy in a hotel room.


Martha said...

Except for Connie, of course. :)

RSK said...

Considering that the alleged crime occurred in the early part of the century, but the first publishings about it came decades later, yes. And the receivership preceded Armstrong's divorce trial from which the first highly publicized evidence comes from. Since the alleged victim opted not to seek charges, that robs "the law" of much of its key evidence in prosecuting a crime that was decades prior at that point. So yes, I suspect you are a dimwit.

RSK said...

I have little opinion on it. For whatever reason, Dorothy opted not to take her alleged story to the authorities (I can speculate as to why, but ultimately it is just guesswork). Which means either it didn't happen at all and all the circumstantial commentary is incorrect, or it did and she had her own reasons for keeping quiet, yet the secret got out anyway.

Ultimately, if the incest story makes COGlodytes defensive just in the hearing, then I question why they have such an attachment to the man. He had enough holes in his interpretations and teachings to reject him before one ever heard of any incest. The fact that he may have been a completely disgusting individual behind closed doors is just secondary confirmation, if anything.

nck said...

"He had enough holes in his interpretations and teachings to reject him before one ever heard of any incest."

Clearly the subject under discussion is not how people act or get entangled in a web by not being in posession of all relevant data.

As a matter of fact data is becoming an asset class in its own. I am not to criticize the yak herder in his current understanding of the world as I profit from data sources that cost more per month then he makes in his lifetime. In the same manner I am not to criticize my kin who made their decisions on the understanding education and data that seemed to be available for them at the time.

There is no need for attachment to the man. Since basic decency and culture demands a defense lawyer, even if he is guilty. So for lack of qualified presence I will fill that role this second.

Now y'all place great trust in "circumstantial evidence" in this particular case. I will not trash the character of some of the claimants since this is not a real trial.

But as I said. If it were common knowledge for the Armstrong cousins and nieces that this unfortunate event had occurred, I wonder why they accepted the free education and other perks I am personally aware of.

To me it looks like "hindsight guessing" by some family members who at some later point in life felt they had something against the man. But in my opinion 18 years old is old enough to have an opinion on the heinousness of such deed if it ever occurred. But they did not act on it at the time unless that knowledge came only available at a later date after all the "apostate" ministers did their gossiping work.

And I will not go into some of the crazy theories of some of the (orginal) accusers that do not speak well for their mental stability.

(Just being the lawyer here.)


Byker Bob said...

Nck, there were a number of trashy, "entitled" members of the Armstrong family amongst the benign or good ones. There is even testimony in the archives of the email to the editor section at Painful Truth from women whose virginity was taken when they were young girls at SEP, based on intimidation of who someone's father was. Seriously bad gene pool amongst the ruling family. Takers in a culture which taught the way of "give".


Martha said...

Oops, I meant Connie wasn't among us ladies who hadn't won the genetic lottery, not what BB said, that Connie claimed incest had been confirmed in her prayers.

RSK said...

As for the article, I read it some time ago. It spends about three pages pointing out the obvious second- and third-hand nature of the evidence (duh!). Then veers off into silly finger-shaking, with bible and Mein Kampf quotes at the ready.

Again, do you need the incest story to reject HWA? I don't think so.

Anonymous said...

No, all we need is the fact that Herbert Armstrong permitted his son free reign to commit heinous acts until the embarrassment became public: It's all public image and perception.

This is common in corporations: The CEO can commit adultery as long as it is discreet.

However, if, as it happened at Weyerhaeuser Containerboard Packaging, the executive secretary of the executive vice president over a business actually takes said secretary with him AND allows her to forge his signature on overtime slips for hours she did not work, then... well... the new vice president is likely to be named while he's on a trip for the business in China for the company. It's not that he's committed the adultery, it's that he's become too public with it.

So when GTA was too obvious with his drinking, gambling, date rape of AC coeds that people like Ken Wesby and the other ministers rebelled, well, it's time to dump the loser.

But if you think about it, what is the difference between Eli and Samuel?

I don't know, but, you know, like Eli, Herbert Armstrong should have been removed if for no other reason than he let his son run rampant.

And for you arm chair lawyers out there, often times circumstantial evidence is more than sufficient for conviction. For example, in Panama, there is no RADAR or troopers measuring your speed on the highway from one side to the other. What they do is put a time stamp on a ticket as you enter the highway and check it when you arrive at the other side. At that point, they use science to figure out if you were speeding and are ticketed accordingly if you were.

Now just because we didn't have witnesses to the fact that Israelites absolutely did NOT migrate to Britain, doesn't mean that the circumstantial DNA science doesn't absolutely, positively, unequivocally prove that the broad vast majority of people in the United States and the British Commonwealth are not descended from lost tribes of Israel, because it does prove it and debunks British Israelism once and for all, in spite of all the efforts of the moron emeritus proponents may attempt. It's science. There are certain things in science you can always count on. And you scoundrels attempting to claim epigenetics says otherwise, your day is coming.

Be warned.

Repent now.

Anonymous said...

For NCK, and the others who cannot understand why someone would not have reported incest if it had occurred, do a little reading on the topic. Very few victims of incest report this crime to the police, even today. Much less so decades ago. This is a vastly under-reported crime. This is no reason to discount the evidence unless one is merely looking for an excuse.

It also does not help to attack those that have stated what they know. Contact a few of them (while they are still here with us) and determine for yourself in they are credible. That is better than making a number of careless assumptions in order to uphold the myth of HWA.

nck said...

It's ok Martha,

We are trained to take "here a little and there a little" after all.


nck said...


I urge you not to make careless assumptions about me.

I was not speaking about the victim. I was speaking about why Debbie (and the other nice one (not gta sons) would have accepted a free education IF the sad occurence would have been common knowledge in the family. 18 years old would have been old enough to refuse any gestures from hwa IF the alleged occurence would have been common knowledge.

She certainly got a dose of Russian propaganda while working in the Soviet Union on behalf of the foundation. And she has not recovered since.


RSK said...

My own grandmother was (according to her) thrown permanently out of her home as a teenager for confiding in her mother regarding her father's sexual abuse of her. Why didn't she report it? Well, I don't actually know for a fact that she didn't, but even if the local gendarmes of the time had believed her, she still would need to produce evidence, and... yeah. Too long ago, I don't know the specifics. But yes, those sort of crimes do go underreported.

Anonymous said...

Straining gnats, capitalizing on trivial things, endless whispherings, fables that none of you here can actually prove. And so what if HWA is an incest, it is never about him, not about you people either, not about me. But I plead for those whose conscience are weak. Don't swallow camels it's unclean:)

Byker Bob said...

Even today, abuse is handled by different people in different ways. There is still a great deal of stigma and labeling attached to it. There would be some who wear their survival as a sort of badge, while others worry about being defined or limited as a person as someone who had been abused. Surely, people are entitled to privacy if that's the way they choose to handle such a thing. It often forces a person's hand when they are a public figure, or a public figure's codependent. Being too harsh with Dorothy for not coming forward, just because that's what we would have preferred for her to do, would be akin to placing undue blame on the victim. It's thinking too much about what we suffered, and not enough about her pain.


Anonymous said...

BB writes 'Nobody has claimed that God confirmed the incest in their prayers.'
Ha ha ha. BB is such a funny man. Ha ha ha ha.

Anonymous said...

You never get it RSK, there are people who are not attached to the man. LET THAT SINK a little. That's what makes us different, you think its about HWA, it is not!

RSK said...

Uh huh. So why're you so defensive about him? LET THAT SINK a little.

RSK said...

I asked the holy spirit for the winning powerball number and he just gave me a bible verse about someone girding up their loins.

Anonymous said...

BlackOps said, "..there is no RADAR or troopers measuring your speed on the highway from one side to the other. What they do is put a time stamp on a ticket as you enter the highway and check it when you arrive at the other side. At that point, they use science to figure out if you were speeding and are ticketed accordingly if you were."

Good to know! Someday, when I get my Ferrari I can skirt the law. After I get my first time-stamp, I'll pull off to a rest area and have lunch. Then back to the autobahn. Perish the thought, I could even get a ticket for going too slow!

just satire,

Anonymous said...

Because he should be rotting in prison until the age of 93, right? and nobody, not a law enforcer or an embittered minister who didn't reach the ranks got enough SOLID EVIDENCE and pack him to prison. He is a sex maniac, molested a MINOR, his own daughter according to your own mind, but he was FREE, writing books in a very old age? while we on the other hand, spends time griping in this blogpost. I am here not for myself but for others whose conscience are weak - wicked grin - tata RSK....

Anonymous said...

Don't forget that this really didn't become known until 28 years after the fact. There is also a statute of limitations. Even so, it becomes a he said/she said without DNA evidence. At that point it is a 50 yo daughter and an 80+ year old man.

People spend ill-gotten money all the time particularly if they are spending it on a perceived good (college education). That isn't surprising. I guess I'm just saying not having served time in jail is not any kind of evidence of innocence with the facts above.

I'm a sabbath and holy day observer, but I also recognize the many failings in the WCG under Armstrong and after.

RSK said...

Allegedly, yes. Plenty of criminals have evaded the law, especially when the crime isn't reported. Did you have a point somewhere in there?

nck said...


Good for you to also see the failings of the system.

The point is. They are not facts. At least not in the legal sense.
The wider families behavior in that 28 year period (and longer) is not consistent with the claimed "common knowledge" within the family. (unless the wider family is morally corrupt and I don't know them that way on the contrary) So the "knowledge" in my opinion is "inserted" on a later date. By the Robinson book perhaps? Then we have circular reasoning.

Most commenters are not knowledgeable in legal matters at all.

For instance the persons using the word minor. Men, the legal age for marrying in the state of Georgia at the time was 14 years old I believe and spanking your spouse was considered normal behavior in the USA.

Just a legal opinion as a civic courtesy to the defendant not a moral judgement.


Anonymous said...

Yes, De Eric Berg says it's a myth, the 8 glasses a day theory. Too much is not good and too little either. Berg drinks 3 or 4 8 ounce glasses a day...

Anonymous said...

It stands to reason that MOST people attending their deluded churches do NOT know the TRUE FACTS regarding Herbert Armstrong. The Ambassador Report should be REQUIRED READING!! You do not even have to take their word for it because some of it is a matter of PUBLIC RECORD and can be substantiated. The SAME SHAM is going on today. Indeed there is “Nothing new under the sun”.

Veronica Monet said...

Yes! We were taught that HWA was like God. And I heard him pound the podium in 1979 with these words "How dare you question me. I am the Right Hand of God!" F@ck Herbie the Perv.

Anonymous said...

It’s so sad that so many were actually brainwashed into this cult. Cults attract people, that are insecure, lonely, and or born into them as babies. You can worship alone, you don’t need fake congregations...that thrive on your hard earned dollar. Don’t ever let a flesh and blood person, tell you what you need to do, Read the Bible, pray. GOD hears you. Be strong as you can. If you have mental frailties, seek a reputable doctor. Most churches are devised, to create a monetary living for those that create them. Just like fake 501 3c charities. They first pay themselves then maybe a few pennies to the fake cause. Never worship any man, woman. Humans will fail you every time. All you need to read is the good book. The answers are there. You don’t need someone to reinterpret them. Money is the root of all evil, and most churches are at the soil of that root. Yes, it’s sad and despicable how much time and money people spent on hwa....time and money you can never get back. Maybe that was life’s lesson...for you. Move were innocent people, a charlatan.....a con artist...a filthy dirty disgusting human. Don’t ever let it happen to you again!

Anonymous said...

If Bob Theil says its a lie then we know it is true!

Anonymous said...

Re-running this article from 2017 ? With all the principlals in this post being long dead, what exactly do want people to do? Wailing and gnashing of teeth ??? Energised by gossip??

Bizarrely the 1997 Garner Ted letter response is the wisest. It does not affect christians standing or salvation with God.

Incest in America has long been reported as being rife.

Anonymous said...

"Although Herbert Armstrong never sued David Robinson for publishing his book, two of his employees (Henry Cornwall and Sherwin McMichael) did sue Mr. Robinson. The suit was settled with WCG having to pay Mr. Robinson $25,000."

It would be most helpful if essential journalism could be carried out. What year? In what court? A link to any available documentation of the case would be excellent.

Anonymous said...

Let's look at this from another angle. One of the Biblical qualifications of an elder is that he has raised his children well.

While GTA was estranged from his father, he widely and brazenly accused HWA of incest, seeking to undermine HWA's legitimacy. Later, after HWA died, GTA clammed up about the incest charges, as if he finally realized that those charges also undermined his own legitimacy. GTA's conduct had more to do with his own self-interest than with defending or protecting his sister.

Simply on the grounds of raising children who were not only not church members but were in some cases immoral hellions, HWA is disqualified from the ministry.

Anonymous said...

“ Re-running this article from 2017 ? With all the principlals in this post being long dead, what exactly do want people to do? Wailing and gnashing of teeth ??? Energised by gossip??”

If you were not bright enough to read it the post said links to interviews with Deborah and other family members had been updated. I am glad to see this posted again. Too many still stick their heads in the ground and deny it. Also, just because incest may be rife in this country is not an excuse to let Herbie Pervie off the hook. Armstrongism is built upon degenerate men.

Anonymous said...

If a person is NOT guilty, he or she would immediately be angry, deny it loudly, and look for the people actually involved to give their testimonies without telling him or her how to write it. Just turn it in & sign it. Not so with Herbert W. Armstrong.
He did it.

Tonto said...

Thiel , Pack, Flurry, Weinland and Cox are also INSECTS!

Anonymous said...

The idea that Herbert committed sins and the WCG tried to cover them up is a conspiracy theory. Some people here keep mocking conspiracy theories, yet they believe in them themselves. The stupidity never stops.

Anonymous said...

f a person is NOT guilty, he or she would immediately be angry, deny it loudly, and look for the people actually involved to give their testimonies ...

Not really. When idiots who jump to stupid conclusions accuse me falsely I leave it in God's hands and write off the idiots as the idiots they are. What do I care what idiots think? God will deal with the idiots in his time. And anyone who believes without evidence I write off as another idiot. Sadly, most people believe things without evidence.

Anonymous said...

The original red cover holy day booklet by HWA was replaced with an edited orange cover version. Comparing the two, someone with a sense of justice removed several obviously evil remarks in the original. This gives credibility to his adultery and incest accusations, and explains his church being run as a cult.
In my books, the original booklet proves that HWA was morally twisted.

Anonymous said...


I remember in the early '80s that there were a lot of sermons on David's sin and other Biblical heroes' sins. These sermons were connected to HWA in theory but no particulars given. There was only one reason for this and that was to blunt the Armstrong's revealed sin that some heard or were going to hear. I remember HWA speaking about his "worst sin": stripping down in a closet or bathroom and smoking. Apparently, he said he did so, so Loma would not smell the smoke on his clothes. The audience just laaauuughed. So funny! But, why all this addressing of leaders' sins?
It is obvious the WCG and Armstrong were addressing the accusations indirectly, but not daring to deny them or challenge Robinson, Kessler, and others as a widened investigation would have ended very badly for Armstrong. Instead, he tried to blunt the effect by reminding the members that men of God have been guilty of grievous sins and he further tried to steal the thunder by stating his "worst sin" in a comical way.

Strangely, when I learned of the incest years later, all these old sermons came to mind and blunted my response to perhaps Armstrong's most grievous sin. Cult mindset. I wonder why so many can't recognize this about the COGs, but even I who didn't grow up in the WCG was still strongly affected by the cult and resisted anything negative about it. Thankful the Lord opened my eyes.

Anonymous said...

Disagree - God expects us to push back darkness and take a stand against it. We are not to stick our heads in the sand. We are to be doers.

Anonymous said...

Conspiracy theories are generally Holy Spirit giving the red flags. It is our job to follow the scent like a bloodhound (do the research) until we find out WHY He gave us the red flags. Throughout my life, this has been true without exception. Holy Spirit wants a relationship with us. We partner with Him. We are do be DOERs. It is a partnership.

Anonymous said...

At this point in time when all of the discussion about incest makes its way to me, the casual outsider, it feels like I’m hearing it from the 5th or 6th person perspective. I don’t feel comfortable accepting or dismissing if incest happened. I simply feel I don’t have enough to land one way or the other. That being said, there’s plenty of what HWA said out of his own mouth to indicate he made things up, and was full of it in so many other areas, that I don’t really need any more to have serious questions about his “special” relationship to God, and his demigod status he put himself into. Once I started looking into the Bible to “prove all things” a frequently occurring thought that came into head was “the Bible doesn’t say what he says it does”

Anonymous said...

Guess something is going wrong, otherwise why resurrect a dead post about a man from decades ago?

Must be there is a need to restore the anger of present day people so they can be better controlled here.

Best laugh I’ve had in a long time. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Sad to say, many of the accusers in this post need to be investigated also. Some were real low-life people in their own way. Not good people to trust, frankly.

Anonymous said...

If this is not what cursed HWA's ministry, God must have had other reasons. If they had actually had a relationship, God would have validated HWA in 1972-75 instead of the big oops, the desperate mathematicians going back to the drawing tables, and all the backpedaling. You see, we have enough evidence that HWA was not whom he was said to be without the incest! The incest is just additional icing on the cake.

Most ACOG members assign about as much credibility to incest testimony as they do to the speculation that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were husband and wife. They have made HWA untouchable by inventing a quasi-Biblical role for him as God's endtimes "Apostle". This, laughably, as they lampoon the Catholic Church of God for its various saints and popes.

Anonymous said...


He simply needed to have denied it if untrue. Silence did not help him here, if he was innocent. He could have in one fell swoop ended it by stating it was a false disgusting accusation and Dorothy could have done the same. No fanfare, Just a disgusted denial. It seems obvious to me, that only a guilty person, particularly as head of a church organization, would not deny it. Instead, he knew it would just bring this sin and other sins to light.

Anonymous said...

8:45 wrote "Guess something is going wrong, otherwise why resurrect a dead post about a man from decades ago? Must be there is a need to restore the anger of present day people so they can be better controlled here. Best laugh I’ve had in a long time. Thanks."

You are too funny 8:45! This was the best laugh I have had in a few days. Thanks!!!!!!!

Mark Wolfe said...

Well, if the lions did not eat him he was probably innocent.

Anonymous said...

8.45 am, HWA is still ruling the ACOG splinters from the grave. Many still quote his words as if they are holy writ and secretly worship the man.

Anonymous said...

Is it in nature or is it nurture? Seems like the Armstrong family and its tentacles ran deep. Very well known among everyone, are the escapades of GTA, and even a grandson of HWA/nephew of GTA, groomed and raped a 15-year-old who I personally know. It's all moot, but that family is tainted. Great foundation to build a church.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

I debated with myself in 2017 about commenting on this post and decided not to in the end. Over the years, I have made a couple of veiled references to this accusation, but I chose not to address it directly out of respect for my father (Wayne Hendrix). My father told me something in confidence about 30 years ago and asked me not to repeat it. He died at the end of 2021, and all of the principals are now deceased (so those considerations are no longer a factor).

At the time this post was originally posted, I was impressed with Byker Bob's comment that this would NOT be regarded as disqualifying by the true believers who were still part of the ACOGs. Indeed, my own father seemed to confirm this reality. I simply could not understand how he could continue to associate with an ACOG knowing what he did about the founder of the movement. After all, Jesus said that "a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." (Matthew 7:18) I, myself, had wrestled with this before finally cutting ties with CGI.

Even so, I respected my father's wishes and kept the matter to myself (with the exception of those few veiled references I mentioned earlier). The whole thing made me uneasy. How could I not contribute what I knew to the discussion? Wasn't an omission the same thing as a lie? Nevertheless, I also did not want to violate my father's confidence, and I didn't want to be numbered among the "accusers." So, I decided that I would confine my criticisms of Herbert and his church to the teachings/theology which he/it promulgated (I'm still more comfortable with that approach).

It is as they say, however, a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since my father shared with me his conversation with Garner Ted Armstrong some 30 years ago! Although my father was among the folks within CGI who supported GTA's removal from the ministry after the incident with the masseuse, he never wavered in his conviction that the teachings which Herbert and GTA had promulgated were the "truth." All of these developments have caused me to reevaluate that decision to not participate in this forum five years ago.

In a conversation which took place long after GTA's expulsion from the Worldwide Church and after his father's (Herbert's) death, Garner Ted told my father that the accusation against his dad was true! He said that his father had had an incestuous relationship with his sister, and that his personal confrontation of his father with the charge had resulted in the final rupture between him and his father. In the light of this knowledge, from my perspective, it is illogical/unreasonable to assume that God would use an incestuous pedophile (Herbert) or an adulterous womanizer (GTA) to restore/reveal "truth" to His Church. Just saying!

DW said...

Legally speaking, in all likelihood HWA would have entered an "Allen Plea" if these allegations made it to court. That means he would have agreed, if brought to court on charges of incest, the State would have enough evidence to convict him. It is not technically a guilty plea, but an admission that the Prosecutors would have gotten one, had it gone to trial.

Ramona is really the one who could have ruined him, but because she obviously loved money more than truth and decency, she took him to the cleaners but spared him the death penalty, so to speak.

And for little Bob to declare him not guilty..that is rich. One fake prophet covering for another because he needs his "line of succession" b.s. to speak to his credibility. Not truth mind you, but succession! Bob cares about that more than anything else. The word of an incestuous pedophile got Bob over the hump (in his own mind) and we see him doing the same thing now with the situation in Africa. Victims and truth be damned! I am leading the final phase of the work! Who cares about incest, adultery and other sexual misdeeds? It was AI. Good grief Bob. Pull the other one. You are going to hell unless you repent of ALL OF YOUR misdeeds. But at least you can finally meet your idol HWA!!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Friday, June 16, 2023 at 7:37:00 AM PDT wrote:
"Disagree - God expects us to push back darkness and take a stand against it. We are not to stick our heads in the sand. We are to be doers."
Let's assume that we could somehow magically push back the darkness that you speak of. Then what? Have a lot of light? Marvelous light?

Or, would we all be in a situation that is similar to what Job found himself in?

Job 30:26 "When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness."

Overall, I learned about some spiritual milk and lots of spiritual junk food, from HWA regarding the Bible, but even a babe needs milk before it gets to eat meat.

What about all of those hirings of the former WCG that followed HWA?

They have all sinned. HWA, even if he did not do the things that are mentioned in this thread, he too sinned, just like you and I.

The wages for breaking God's law and sinning is death. I call it LSD, based on Romans 6:23. Break God's Law, Sin, and the wages earned is / are death.

Who is not guilty? Jesus Christ? Yes, He could raise His hand. Who can throw stones, and why? It is all past history and those hirings who left Pasadena, leaving their ministerial credentials behind, departed from the former WCG and they're out teaching what? Basically the same, or similar, things that HWA taught.

How much has any of them grown in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ? Continuing to teach that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament shows they haven't grown a bit. They, still filled with spiritual junk food, believe in another Jesus.

For what it is worth, James told fellow Christians what was impacting each and every one of them, and the principal applies to every human being on earth beginning with Adam and Eve:

James 4:5 "Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?"

It is a spiritual problem and that spirit is revealed to some extent in Ephesians 6:12
Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
This whole thread is concerned with flesh and blood wrestling flesh and blood, and where does it get anybody? Sin is sin. Who among us has no sin?
HWA lived LSD, and is dead, and one day we'll be resurrected. What will you judge / blame HWA for at that time? Death was the penalty, which is paid.
We are all learning to hate evil. We are all living through LSD in each of our lives, also. Death is the penalty! When you are resurrected do you want to be judged and blamed for any sins of your formal life?
God moves on with his perfect plan of salvation to save all mankind, and subsequently destroy Satan, the crooked serpent, and his angels. Really?
Isn't a time we moved on?
Isn't one free of sin when one is dead?
When you a resurrected won't you be happy that God is not going to impute sins on you, because death was the wages, paid in full, and that's past history?
It is Christ our Passover, sacrificed for us, that allows us to live again!

How did you ever think that something in your life, anything you do/did, would have some kind of an adverse impact on that sacrifice for every human being?

Time will tell...


Anonymous said...


The way the LGBTQ+ agenda is “progressing” so rapidly in the USA, Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc., the things that HWA has been accused of doing might soon become something to take PRIDE in. They will explain that he was just an early “MAP” (Minor Attracted Person). They might add, “Not that there is anything wrong with that.”

What people really need to be worried about is the godless and corrupt politicians that they voted for, the bad laws that these politicians introduced, and their bad effect on society. Some of the worst deviants imaginable can now openly go into schools, pretend to be “teachers,” and mess up the minds of the students in shocking ways. Then these “teachers” can hand over the students to so-called “social workers” who will mess up their minds some more before handing them over to surgeons. The surgeons will permanently mess up their young bodies physically with operations that make them look a little bit more like the opposite sex, but simply cannot actually turn the boys into girls or the girls into boys. The surgeons can only mutilate the children so that they can never reproduce.

The police will be much worse than useless if they get involved, since they will be expected to enforce the bad laws of the land in order to collect their paychecks, sort of like some Nazis in the past who tried to argue that they were, “Just following orders.” The police will be so confused too that they will think that some old man who self-identifies as a “transgender girl of age 12” in the little girl's shower is the victim of a “trans-hate crime” perpetrated by the young girls and their mothers who do not want him there. The “social workers” and the police might remove these children from what they will claim are such “unfit” parents.

Frankly, it looks more and more like HWA was right about the people in the USA and Britain rejecting God and sinning increasingly all the time until they deserve to be punished severely for it.

Anonymous said...

It was/is the time of fury, anger, indignation, rage - Dan 8:19, Strong's 2195.

Anonymous said...

What ever became of the Lochner tapes? Is Floyd Lochner still alive? Is he related to Otto Lochner, who was a WCG/UCG minister?

Much has been said about the Lochner tapes through the decades but if they were so important then why haven't they been preserved or copies made and distributed? And if they have, who has them now?

Anonymous said...

Brainwashed HWA loyalists need to remember that HWA isn't merely accused of incest. He's accused of raping Dorothy after coming home on Friday evenings after they went out dancing together. If a true believer wants to look the other way about the incest, there's still the problem of breaking the Sabbath by dancing and committing incest.

JPM said...

Any more gossipy subjects to attract the more base minds that seem to love to have witch hunts for everyone they can imagine?

BP8 said...

Anon 551
Your comment is way off base in light of the example of Jesus Christ!

Anonymous said...

Open Sins

Regardless of what HWA did or did not do, there is a lot of sexual immorality in the world today:









The transgender stuff and multiple (57+) gender nonsense probably is reaching levels never before seen.

The USA and other countries are now full of people being openly sinful in outrageous ways – and proud of it.

While you might not know for certain what HWA did or did not do, you can see for yourself what you personally did do.

Anonymous said...

Does it matter? If he did it (which he probably did), then he was not the great apostle that he pretended to be. So his church was not the true church like he said it was. And they are not the elect like they thought they were. So they were taught a great deal of error. I'm sure GTA knew it matters. But he had plenty of his own issues he wanted ignored.

Anonymous said...

Floyd Lochner is certainly dead. Otto is Floyd's son.

Byker Bob said...

Lonnie, like yourself, I was also protective of my parents. They got close to the power as did your Dad. I'm also a PK. The reason I made the remark about church members not seeing HWA's incest as being disqualifying was based on my Mother's comments to me when I was in the process of leaving WCG in the aftermath of 1975. At that time, we did not know the details of HWA's relationship with Dorothy. Thise had not come out as yet! In fact, I did not know anything about it until the early 2,000s when I first learned of "The Tangled Web" on several of the so-called "dissident" forums. A forum friend, an AC grad who had worked for David Robinson, and had the utmost respect for him, photocopied the book, which was then out of print, and sent it to me. I was totally blown away by this knowledge. So, my Mother's remarks did not result from a discussion regarding HWA. I had confronted her about GTA! My Mom's response was that they (she and my Dad) were loyal to a PHILOSOPHY, and not to a man. I rightly concluded that this was the Armstrong-loyalist groupspeak, obviously concocted by the church "think tank", and was the rationale for many remaining as members (in spite of 1975) so that members would hold their heads up and continue to respect themselves for the time and money they had invested in WCG. And, this of course was in spite of prophecy failures of their prophets (whomdidn't want to be called prophets for obvious reasons), and the moral failures of the then face man (GTA) for the church.

When my friend obtained the Tangled Web for me, he actually asked permission of David's widow before sending it to me. I was impressed at the level of loyalty that David commanded, that my friend would actually do this! Later, some of the volunteer staff at the Painful Truth, who had sourced their own copy, put it into pdf form and made it available for general consumption. General availability was one of the events (others were the mapping of the human genome, and the re-emergence of Ambassador Reports) which made people speculate on the dubiousness of the future existence and viability of Armstrongism as a religion. I mean, in the face of these, how could Armstrongism possibly continue to exist?

My Mother had already provided me with the answer to that question. Loyalty to a philosophy, above all things.


Anonymous said...

1.13 PM. But it's not just the Anglo-Saxon nations that are drowning in the LGBTQ craziness. Europe has embraced it as well. Instead of leading nations to God, the Anglo-Saxons have led other nations into the moral sewer.

Anonymous said...

I have always been skeptical of these allegations against HWA. My view has now shifted a little more to the guilty end of the spectrum. I am related distantly to both Herbert and Loma Armstrong. And I always felt that a more solid case should be made. First, I would not believe Herbert. Second, I would not believe Garner. Third, I would not believe David Robinson. I had a discussion with the latter that I felt was more than a little idiosyncratic in the viewpoints he expressed on many topics.

HWA had enemies - many within the ranks of the WCG. Character Assassination within the WCG was not uncommon as schisms occurred. This has left me feeling that the WCG was rife with hearsay but there was little certifiable evidence. Herbert was undoubtedly a heretic but he wasn't a malevolent heretic. He just kind of bumbled into various religous beliefs. Sort of like Donald Trump. When I watch Donald on TV I get the impression that he is a person of inherited wealth that never had to be responsible for much. He bumbled into the presidency and never made an attempt to really figure out what it was all about. I think both men thought autocracy would carry the day.

So, I am still mostly skeptical. I would like to see some credible evidence that is more than hearsay - as if it were any of my business. How much of what we hear originated with GTA? How many times has the information been recycled and enhanced. Why did nobody in the Armstrong family press charges - HWA had deep pockets back then. He had your tithes and my tithes. Wouldn't that have been a strategy worthy of a soap opera - HWA is sued by a family member for millions and he turns over a ton of church funds to a family member. But that did not happen. There just has always been something fishy about the accusations. On the other hand, I think there is no other evidence than hearsay.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...


Yes, my experience with my own father and family members who continue to be a part of one of the ACOGs parallels your experience with your own parents. I think that you hit the nail on the head about the way that these folks justify their continued affiliation with Armstrongism (it's the teachings, not the teacher). By the way, once again, your contributions here have always been helpful, and they are still appreciated by many of us.

Anonymous said...

I grew up in Worldwide and its spin offs since I was a kid in the early 70's. Even a young person you could see the selfishness and narcissistic personality oozing out of HWA. I doubt he ever really cared one bit about the irreparable damage he was doing to his daughter during his abuse of her. I think in a way GTA was almost destined to have sexual issues by having Herbert as his father. You cannot have someone like that as a parent & not be damaged. I have noticed UCG has started having some spot commercials in the Birmingham area. I don't think they will have much success because when most people research their legacy going back to WCG and HWA that is going to turn most people away.

Anonymous said...

"Ramona..took him to the cleaners"

Reminds me of how Michael Jackson shelled out

Anonymous said...

A bit tricky nearly 100 years after the event. God expects us to live in the moment, not wallowing in dead men's gossip.

Incest is rife in America. Do something about that if you are obsessed with HWA incest.

Anonymous said...

Bad comparison. Jesus was dying for our sins and chose to continue down that path before Pilate by remaining silent. He defended himself many times before this.

Anonymous said...

IF HWA was proven to have committed incest and a host of other sins, HOW would that change the instructions in the Bible? HOW would that change God's instructions to us and our obligation to follow those instructions?

God knows what HWA did or didn't do, just as He knows what we have or haven't done, and that is all that matters.

The shallowness of sites such as this amaze me. It's as if they think that they can negate the Bible by showing a preacher's sins.

Anonymous said...

6.43 am, Yes, mature people look exclusively to their bibles, but what percentage of any congregation is mature? And even those who reach maturity were inspired or discouraged by the example of their teachers when they were young..
Which is why GTA was kicked out of his own church and the leader of the Hillsong church resigned over allegations of covering up a case of pedophilia.

Anonymous said...

This looks like one huge whataboutism.

Byker Bob said...

First of all, 6:43, HWA always claimed that his message was unique, in that he preached a gospel which had not been preached in over 1900 years. That is an admission that what you call the instructions in the Bible is HIS interpretation of the Bible. Nobody had put the scriptures together in that same way to form the precise set of instructions that Mr. Armstrong taught. We knew that he learned some of the material from COG-7, and some from George Greenberry Rupert, but those groups did not teach exactly the same doctrines as did HWA. People associated with the Armstrong movement often use phrases such as, "The Bible plainly says...." when a more precise description would be "Mr. Armstrong's interpretation...." The two are not equal and the same, although he, and they, tried to make all of his proof-texting and spin into what the Bible says.

Secondly, the Biblical examples which are cited of similar sinfulness to those of HWA and GTA are all taken from the Old Testament, before Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, which made the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in humans possible. HWA taught that God the Father, and Jesus Christ had a plan for humans, His children, so that never again would there be a massive fall such as what happened with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels. He also taught that during our era, which he described as "Philadelphia" the Holy Spirit was exclusively available through his ministry, and that the church was "God's Government on Earth", and that we were in training through our obedience to that government, receiving an early chance to experience the types of lives which humans would be living after the return of Jesus Christ, and would therefore be the first fruits. So, being indwelt by the Holy Spirit was supposed to prevent falls such as Satan's. If indeed, HWA did commit incest upon his child, during the first, formative ten years of his church, there are simply not strong enough words to convey the fact that a God who detests sin, and separates Himself from it, would never work through a man with such a reprobate mind. Any words or teachings from such a man would have been a contaminated version of whatever God was supposedly revealing. I believe that is why we had the Great Disappointment of 1975! HWA was living in violation of the qualifications of a bishop, and there are also New Testament passages that once one falls from conversion, there is no renewal.

Rejecting the possibility of HWA as being an Apostle, or as being the restorer of truth is not negating the Bible. It means one must start back at square one, and question all the fruit from a poisoned tree, and hopefully, this time, finding the real deal. In a way, although I believe they are dead wrong, I respect the people who reject any possibility of the incest more than I do those who excuse it and insist that what he taught was still the truth in spite of it. It appears today as if the splinter groups were spewed from the mouth of God in a very telling way. Gamaliel gave us a few subtle hints as to what that might mean.


Anonymous said...

If your leader HWA was shown to have committed these kind of egregious sins, it calls into question his interpretation of the Bible. Which he waffled on anyway. There certainly doesn’t seem to be a large number of people(if any) saying due to HWA’s sins the Bible is negated.

Anonymous said...

I confess that comments like yours initially stir me to indignation, but I was locked into the wcg and its splinters too. I too had only heard the gospel according to armstrong. In the COGs you are indeed in a church that clings to the “special” teachings of Armstrong and all the doctrines fit into his special interpretation. You probably grew up on these interpretations and they make sense to you, so you think you are following the Bible strictly. But, Armstrong was very erong and the arguments you grew up with are largely wrong due to the Armstrong bias.
The COGs cease being the COGs if you remove Armstrong from them.

Desperadoes said...

Desperate acts of burnt out athiest's who should know better. Shameful. Desperate. Gossips.

Anonymous said...

Interesting reading all the supposed enlightened posts knocking the “Armstrongist” stance. Not one of the posters has yet definitively disproved anything. Nor, on the other hand has anyone proven their implied opposing stance.

What are the big armaments against the “Armstrongist” stance?

1. “Armstrongists” have been brainwashed, propagandized, deceived, and/or are too dumb to know better. Really? All those things can easily apply to the biased, hard nosed critics, here who know even less about the Bible.

2. Herbert Armstrong was deceived, a pervert, egotistical, etc. ad sicko nauseous diatribes without substance. If anyone here has never sinned, speak up, let us know which of you is the new messiah.

3. Herbert Armstrong and all WCG splinters are/were white supremacists. And, racists. Oh, really? If that is so, why did enough non-whites join the WCG, and when there were enough, ask for their own congregations? The critics here can’t see beyond their noses. Why, they are not bad just because they demean those they disagree with!?

4. Why Herbert built his teaching by “cherry-picking” verses from the Bible.
What a pathetic childish excuse. None of the critics here could ever make good researchers, or lawyers, or professors, or scientists. They all build their case on specific “cherry-picked” resources. Critics are too dumb to do that I’ve been told.

5. Why go on since no one here has a solid case on any topic criticized here. But, I think I will spend the time writing up a full report on the childish methods used by uninformed people who revel in belittling others. It makes them fill important, oh so important.

6. There’s more, oh so much more, to illustrate the absurd failings of critics who are third, fourth, fifth, etc. generation gossips, and rumor mongers.

7. I notice more mature folks here are finally speaking up against the diatribes without merit. More of them should speak up, for the critics can’t handle rebuttals. It deflates their ego.

Why am I posting this? The first response will be, “he’s just an Armstrongist trying to protect his Apostle.” Nope.

The real reason is no one likes or appreciates a bully. And there are many here. Stand up long enough to them and they run away crying. I know from early school days.
So why? Because injustice is wrong, and most of the nonsense here is injustice. Everyone should stand against injustice. Oh, the uproar, there is no injustice here! Oh yeah?

Later friends.

Anonymous said...

Byker Bob 9:21

Who god uses and why has always been a mystery to me. We know of HWA. But there is also Karl Barth. Barth had a live-in girlfriend who lived with him and his wife. Her name was Charlotte von Kirschbaum. She helped him in his work on his magnum opus Church Dogmatics. C.S. Lewis drank beer and smoked a pipe yet is loved by evangelicals.

I think it goes back to Christ's statement: "...Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
I have to recuse myself from the jury in a court of haste. I think outcomes over some considerable time must be evaluated. How long is too long? I don't know.

Byker Bob said...

There's certainly a lot of mystery there, 6:17, isn't there? I can only speak to the effects HWA's teachings had on my own life, and they were uniformly bad, starting with living in fear, as a child, of the Germans and 1972-75, only to find that those fears were not based on fact, or on any sort of relationship anyone had with God. They were nothing more than an advertising hook designed to manipulate people into joining HWA's church and to supporting it financially. This is in direct contrast to the ways in which Jesus attracted His followers.

In all my studies, which include multiple readings of the Bible (various versions), studying the complete works of Josephus, the writings of the Antenicene Fathers, and the nag hamadi documents, the only things which shine forth with any validity are the so-called Golden Rule, the Two Great Commandments of the Lord, the Beatitudes, and the Sermon on the Mount.

There is no basis for literalism, or fundamentalism because there are multiple scriptural takes informing any and every doctrine. The scriptures in many cases counter one another, inducing some sort of choice. Armstrongism always dealt in the most extreme choices. It is not all quite so black and white as we were taught by HWA. Nobody has all the answers! Best answer is embodied by the pure heart!

With that, I am going to fade back into commenting as "Anonymous". I commented briefly over the past couple of days as BB because that is how I entered this thread in 2017 when it originally appeared on Banned.

Peace Out,

Anonymous said...

Not preaching this sabbath BB ?

Anonymous said...

Denying it doesn't mean a thing. Wasn't too many years ago we had someone say on national television "read my lips. I did not have sex with that woman."

Anonymous said...

To BB:

"Rejecting the possibility of HWA as being an Apostle, or as being the restorer of truth is not negating the Bible. It means one must start back at square one, and question all the fruit from a poisoned tree, and hopefully, this time, finding the real deal."

Well at least you admit the purpose behind bring up the incest thing is to negate anything HWA taught, which happens to be the Bible.

Paul was a murderer. He also referred to himself as a "wretched man" after repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit. Do we toss out the NT too?

Satan uses people that cannot understand the Bible to attack any and all that teach the truth, and that's fine. Those that do understand know this and are undeterred by it.

Anonymous said...

@ Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 2:43:00 PM PDT

You are right on the money. Many here take great pleasure in pointing out the failings of others. They will even invent failings if necessary. Anything is permissible as long as it turns people away from the Truth of God. The god of this world is clearly controlling them, yet they cannot see it.

Anonymous said...

2.43 pm, your defence of HWA conveniently ignores the elephant in the room, ie, Herb ran his church as an abusive cult. His so called "restored truths" had no impact on my day to day life, but the "Chinese thought reform" by his ministers sermons and church writings had a big impact. People went to services to be educated about the contents of the bible, but were instead brainwashed into accepting a Orwellian 1984-Christian hybrid.
Since you've defended HWA, you must love the man's particular alternative reality.

Anonymous said...

"Not preaching this sabbath BB ?"

Oh, look! It's back again with its claim everyone here are ministers secretly posting these stories. You have always been a hoot! Conspiracy much?

RSK said...

No, I'd have to say "anything HWA taught" and "the Bible" are not necessarily synonymous. Lots of people teach from the Bible. How they use it in their teachings is what differs.

That said, HWA didnt teach that sexually abusing one's daughter was commanded from the Bible either, so I tend to draw a line between what he might have done in his life versus his doctrinal package. As a number of people have pointed out, you don't need the incest allegations (even if it were an open and shut case) to reject the latter.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

The ONLY reason for pointing out Herbert's horrendous sin in this instance is to demonstrate that he was disqualified and unfit to be regarded as a minister of Jesus Christ - let alone an apostle! (See Paul's lists of qualifications for leadership within God's Church). In short, Herbert Armstrong was a "bad tree," and bad trees cannot produce good fruit (anyway, as has already been pointed out, that's what Jesus taught).

The fact that we are all sinners is a given! As far as we know, Jesus Christ is the ONLY man to have ever exited this life sinless. That said, most of the folks who have commented in this thread have NEVER claimed to be an apostle or the sole repository of truth! Hence, our individual sins are irrelevant to this discussion. Now, if we were talking about salvation through Jesus Christ, Herbert's sins are subject to the same forgiveness and compassion which was afforded to all of us. BUT, make no mistake, that is a separate conversation from the one we are having here!

And, if God did NOT use Herbert Armstrong to reveal/restore truth to his Church, then doesn't it make sense to reevaluate HIS interpretation of Scripture? Scripture reveals that Satan has deceived the WHOLE world - do you think that YOU and your group are excluded from that statement? The Holy Spirit guides us - it doesn't control us or make us do anything! In other words, the presence of God's Spirit does NOT make you or me infallible (and, IF Mr. Armstrong had that Spirit, it didn't make him infallible either). By the way, I don't remember incest being listed as one of the fruits (evidences) of the Holy Spirit.

Anonymous said...

Nah BB/Anonymous only got the cut of you. A liar with a notorious reputation from years ago.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe that anyone would bring up the Apostle Paul in their defense of HWA! Paul, a zealous Pharisee, persecuted and presided over the murders of the followers of Jesus Christ in his sinful former life. He had thought that he was doing God's work. Then, God showed him how to really do His work, and after his calling on the road to Damascus, and his conversion, he did not murder Christians.

The evidence and testimony regarding HWA's incest is regarding sins which happened after HWA's baptism, and actually during the time period when he said that God was working with him, revealing the supposedly restored truths.

Comparing HWA to Paul is not valid in any way, shape, or form. It is an apples to oranges comparison, and is ludicrous.

If HWA had been who and what he said he was, and if his doctrinal package had been God's truth, then upon his death, God would have inspired a successor to be named who would have taken things to the next level, accomplishing a greater work. Hypothetically speaking, the continued downward slide of society around us, and the condition of the planet itself, would be crying out for this person who would be continuing the work. God would not provide a false date, use someone to get out a final warning message, and then allow the warning to totally fade as the world needed the message more desperately every subsequent day. The fact that the pride of the WCG's power was broken is much more convincing evidence that God was not behind HWA and his message than is any allegation of incest.

Byker Bob said...

"Not preaching this sabbath, BB?l"

Had to come back and take the bait on this one. I was told after my sophomore year at AC not to return. I ended up working at AC Press until W. A. Krueger Co. purchased it and then shut it down sometime during 1976. The College retained the building and used it for a smaller scale printing and mailing operation, and they occasionally (a couple hours per year) requested my services for equipment repair. When I walked away from the church, my goal was to separate myself from members, ex-members who were totally incapable about carrying on any conversation about anything but the church, and from family members still in the church. I succeeded in this separation and knew nothing of the church or its activities for the better part of 25 years.

Sometime in the late '90s, my then wife purchased a computer, and we were suddenly on the internet. I Googled some people from my past with unusual names to see what they were now doing, and stumbled across all of the internet discussions about HWA/WCG/AC. The splinters had not existed at that point for a long enough time to produce large numbers of abused members, and most of the people on the sites and forums were people whose lives had been negatively impacted or ruined by their experiences with classic WCG. I had known John Trechak, having worked with him every day for several months at AC Press, and was familiar with all of the research raising questions about and disproving many of the doctrines which were taught by HWA, and continued my theological studies through avid reading, as I outlined above.

I never was a minister in the Armstrong movement. I never wanted to be a minister when applying for or attending AC. I went to AC because it was the only higher education my WCG parents would support, and it was the only way to escape a very bad family life. My goal in going to California was always to segue into the Southern California car, motorcycle, music, and beach scene. Oh, and uh, California girls!!! At AC I already knew an incredible number of people from three years of SEP in both Tejas and Minnesota. It was a tolerable life, and there was a small underground of rebel outlaws like myself, who had the same unaskable questions about the system.

There you have it. I was never any kind of Armstrongite minister. Totally DQ'd from that, per Timothy. I'm still into hotrods, motorcycles, and rock n roll, and have been through three wives and more girlfriends. I'm just a guy with deep philosophical questions who has found Armstrongism to be very deficient, and actually quite bogus, disingenuous, and harmful. BB is not a fantasy alter ego for some repressed minister. Not an aspiring spiritual guide. Just a guy sharing some of the things he's learned from his further studies.

Anonymous said...

Byker wrote, "I went to AC because it was the only higher education my WCG parents would support"

I always find it shocking when people are casual about getting into AC. I tried desperately to get into AC and I could not. When I applied I already had a college degree, I had excellent SAT and ACT scores, I had an excellent reference from my work on the AC campus, and I had positive references from the ministers in my WCG congregation. I was young and zealous. And one of the local ministers, an associate pastor, called me one day and told me that my application bounced on all three campuses. He did not know why. He told me that he and the pastor both thought I would be admitted. Oh, yeah, I'm bi-racial.

Now I am deliriously happy that I was not admitted. I went off to grad school at an accredited university instead.

Just a real life story from the Golden Age of Armstrongism.

Anonymous said...

Amazing how many commented on this when someone gets trashed they all hop on board

Anonymous said...

Lochner tape: Where is it, what was it?

On this site there is so much misinformation and downright deliberate misdirection. Whether to harm others or not, it is here, and only the poster knows their own intent.

Lack of information can be very destructive, and there seems to be a lot of it here. So, let’s add a few concepts that I have not seen presented here.

Decades ago I sold personal motivation courses to businesses. The experience gave me a good insight into the average person’s knowledge of the rules and principles of becoming a success. So, let me describe one for you here. Let’s talk about SEX. Especially since the critics here think that is/was the big downfall of the Armstrongs. Was it really? Not necessarily. Much of the downfall came because so many, in their lack of understanding, and teaching that sex was something dirty and filthy was all they knew. So, they interpreted everything in that mindset. One can see that in the foul words used by the critics here.

Now, before covering the following in later posts please understand, this is in no way defending the Armstrongs, but illustrating they had bigger problems to deal with that none of us had or have. And, that this information should be considered when belittling others as is done here. The following will be covered in later posts.

1. Incest, or not.
2. Lochner tape potential source.
3. How to learn bible doctrines faster.
4. Armstrong relatives and their relationship with HWA.
5. And, maybe more.

So, right or wrong, HWA and GTA have much in common with some really great men. Of course, we “know” that the perfect people here have no such problem to be presented below. How do we know? By the great humongous achievements by our posters. Ok, put your seatbelts on, most of you will probably be upset by the following quote:

“ For the purpose of refreshing the memory, in connection with the facts available from the biographies of certain men, we here present the names of a few men of outstanding achievement, each of whom was known to have been of a highly sexed nature. The genius which was their's, undoubtedly found its source of power in transmuted sex energy:















Your own knowledge of biography will enable you to add to this list. Find, if you can, a single man, in all history of civilization, who achieved outstanding success in any calling, who was not driven by a well developed sex nature.

p. 273

If you do not wish to rely upon biographies of men not now living, take inventory of those whom you know to be men of great achievement, and see if you can find one among them who is not highly sexed.

Sex energy is the creative energy of all genii. There never has been, and never will be a great leader, builder, or artist lacking in this driving force of sex.”

Ok, let the misinformed begin their attempt to refute the above taken from chapter three of Think and Grow Rich. Google it if you want to read it all.

Next post: Lochner tape possible source.

Have fun.

Anonymous said...

Unbelievable, 4:58! I was doing it 4-5 times every single night in my mid-fifties, and never thought of having sex with my daughter. Excuse the Armstrongs somewhere else, please.

Trooisto said...

Every time I've read this article I have been horrified by how Pervie Herbie's evil is repeatedly described merely as incest.
As evil as incest is, in Herbie's case it's worse, since the incest was also rape.
It was stated that Herbie first started violating his daughter when she was 14 or 15 years old - so regardless of how she felt about the situation, it was at best, statutory rape. At the worst, Herbie inflicted hellish trauma upon her.
Because this torture started before she was an adult, I don't think that the situation could be described as merely incest after she became an adult - due to the degrading conditioning she was raised under, which left her powerless to protect herself as an adult.
Perhaps the fact that Herbie was a rapist was covered in earlier comments which I didn't have time to read - as well as how he did the same to the church.
The lengthy rolling of Herbie's narcissistic, predatory, dehumanizing, and evil nature, that he perpetrated on his daughter is also a metaphor for how he crushed countless innocent church members who trusted him.

Anonymous said...

It’s amazing how folks here claim so vehemently that incest by HWA occurred. All based on hearsay so far.

Let me give you another piece of hearsay right now. It is directly from me, from the time when the rumors first started. Before the rumors claimed incest.

One day after services, I joined a group of members that were talking about why Herbert Armstrong’s daughter did not come to services. It was quite a thing at the time.

One of the members professed to know the real story. Here it is. Dorothy loves to wear makeup. She disagrees with her father, and the church, on the teaching against makeup. So, she won’t come to services because she will not take it off to be accepted by the people.

So, in the beginning it was makeup. Today, that simple problem has grown into an accusation of incest. Based on what? Hearsay and church gossip.

Did incest really happen? Maybe, maybe not. But here is the problem, someones have turned it into a case of incest. Why? Simply to destroy.

At the time, decades ago, there was never any talk of incest. Sad to say, I know some of the people who probably started it. And, all the biased folks here are now perpetually calling it incest. Based on what real facts? If you know, tell us, and stop saying so and so heard or was told this or that.

As far as Lochner’s tape goes, I knew him personally and had some serious discussions with him. Even dated his daughter a few times. He was ex military, and set in his ways.

So, how did it go from makeup to increase so easily.

Next, was Lochner’s tape a doctored tape of a student forum where Armstrong introduced the new book on sex? I was there, and he described what to do about, oh no, masterbation. Really? Yep, and in public.

Anonymous said...


So, how did it go from makeup to incest so easily.

nck said...

This entire case is closed and total nonsense from the moment the "supposed" victim accepted the substantial amounts of money transferred to her over the years!
So it's just not true or she felt compensated. One must remember that the Germans even convicted typists girls, because they took the money (as enablers of the system)

Anonymous said...

Nobody blew the whistle, 10:04. I heard about the makeup in the '50s. They went with that prefab cover story until it was no longer viable because more people began to find out the truth. GTA supposedly found out in the early '70s, David Robinson's book came out in the early '80s. Ministers found out in between. Now, it would be very difficult to find anyone from the Armstrong movement who did not know.

While there isn't a 100% direct comparison, there has been an ongoing case involving the founders of the Hillsong organization in Australia. One of the founders was a pedophile, and his son apparently covered it up for years.

One thing I find very revealing is that those who believe the incest occurred have exhibited extremely potent critical thinking skills in their comments. If this were a debate, and the outcome were not related to the religious beliefs of any of the debate participants, there really would not be any doubt that the incest had actually occurred. To put this into different terms, the evidence for the incest is actually stronger than the New Testament evidence supporting sabbath keeping, as anybody who has read the materials from non-COG Christians realizes.

Anonymous said...

A victim of a traumatic and embarrassing crime that is being generously supported financially may very likely not say anything if by doing so she must relive the trauma, reveal embarrassing facts, and lose the ongoing support as the organization paying her would be largely destroyed.
This does not even take into account the actual effects of the trauma outside of the pain of recounting them.
Rape victims are often silent without “compensation” because of the pain involved in bringing charges.
Lifetime support to a severely injured soul is not something most would throw away for additional pain and embarrassment.
Silence in not denying it happened is MUCH more telling.

Anonymous said...

"The ONLY reason for pointing out Herbert's horrendous sin in this instance is to demonstrate that he was disqualified and unfit to be regarded as a minister of Jesus Christ - let alone an apostle! "

Here we have it folks! The great LCH has declared it! The only one qualified to differentiate between fact and opinion has made it known that HWA is/was unfit!

Anonymous said...

"I can't believe that anyone would bring up the Apostle Paul in their defense of HWA! Paul, a zealous Pharisee, persecuted and presided over the murders of the followers of Jesus Christ in his sinful former life. He had thought that he was doing God's work. Then, God showed him how to really do His work, and after his calling on the road to Damascus, and his conversion, he did not murder Christians.

The evidence and testimony regarding HWA's incest is regarding sins which happened after HWA's baptism, and actually during the time period when he said that God was working with him, revealing the supposedly restored truths."

DUDE! Paul agonized over being a sinner long after coming into the Church. He referred to himself as wretched. He did the things he hated and had difficulty doing right.

Anonymous said...

1:46, nonsense.

Anonymous said...

So, are you implying that HWA agonized over the incest, 5:57? Is that your similarity? Seems to me that he and his lawyers tried to cover it up and sweep it under the table! Based on the reports, it was definitely a factor leading to HWA's divorce from Ramona.

Anybody know what ever happened to Ramona? Is she still alive today?

Anonymous said...

1:46 wrote: “ One thing I find very revealing is that those who believe the incest occurred have exhibited extremely potent critical thinking skills in their comments.”

Yes, great critical thinking in fighting for turning rumor, gossip, hearsay, no hard facts into assumptions that just have to be made true, so we can continue to believe what we want to believe in spite of the facts. We must be right no matter how faulty our non-real assumptions are. We are biased and must make others believe we aren’t. By the way, will all the non sinners here please tell us how pure they are, pahleeeeesssse.

And, please give us your proof positive that the Think and Grow Rich book is wrong on all men. You can’t do it, except with cheap childish ridicule. By the posts on it it is easy to see the critics couldn’t get the point if they tried. How sad.


Anonymous said...


The best actual evidence that I ever heard of probably was a video-tape secretly recorded by massage therapist Sue Rae Robertson from around 1997 (that was shown on the television news) of Garner Ted Armstrong running around naked, tattooed, singing, playing with himself, and chasing after her at the massage parlor in Tyler, Texas.

Never trust a masseuse to be discrete and keep things confidential.

Anonymous said...

Alrighty then, 64. Will leave you to your own devices. Good luck with that. You are in such good company, after all, with Bob Thiel, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, and all the usual suspects believing as you do on this matter.. Birds of a feather, you know!

Anonymous said...

9:25: Your non response is so typical. You obviously know nothing more than your biased ignorance. Thanks for proving once again that the only answer here is avoiding the facts by stepping away from what you can’t handle. Most instructive.

Anonymous said...

Yep, not much more can be said for 64. A portion of the evidence is documented here. That, coupled with no denials and a family that states this was known within the family is good evidence. Why was hwa estranged from his family?

Anonymous said...

12:06 wrote: “ Why was hwa estranged from his family?”

Simple, they weren’t making any money, and his church was and growing.

I stayed overnight at one of their homes. During dinner the husband kept making sleazy remarks about the college. He really seemed to enjoy making me, a student then, upset. The next morning at about 6am he burst through the bedroom door yelling time to get up, but stopped in mid sentence. He was totally surprised that I was up already, and was kneeling beside the bed praying.

The rest of the morning he profusely apologized for running me and the college down. Maybe he learned a lesson.

Sad to say his demeanor was just like this site.

Nothing is new under the sun when it comes to human nature. At least I get to speak from actual experience and not biased assumptions, and gossip, and rumor mongering.


Anonymous said...

64 doesn't understand evidence. David Robinson and henry cornwall among others said hwa confessed the incestuous rape directly to them. If a court case had occurred the prosecution would have brought these men to the stand. Then the defense would try to discredit them. Then GTA would be called maybe he would be a hostile witness and neither deny or confirm, but he would have to be careful because David Antion could have been called up as a witness to verify that GTA had indeed told him of the incest. GTA would not want to perjure himself. Would Antion be hostile? Probably not as he has been open about it when asked.

At the time Ramona could have been called up. What would she have said? Would she state she heard HWA confess to it? Probably unless she had a gag order. The court records say that She and Herbert came to an agreement regarding the incest.

I've spoken with ministers and even a minister's wife. None have shut down the conversation and denied that it happened. Most just said they hope herbert had repented.

If this ever had gone to court, hwa would have likely been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (criminal trial), but even if not, most would have said the lower level of the preponderance of the evidence was against him (civil trial). Sorry, 64, where there is smoke there is fire and we have the testimony of Henry Cornwall and David Robinson and Art Makorov who claim to have heard HWA confess. You tell me why they cannot be believed. You give reasons to discredit their public testimony.

Then address the lack of a denial, the fear to sue Ambassador Report over it, why Dorothy or no other family member came to HWA's defense. Believe what you want, but be thankful it never went to court.

Anonymous said...

If one really WANTS to know the truth about something, they may have to come to grips with the fact that it might not be the answer that you wanted or expected. I grew up and was associated with Worldwide and various spinoffs for 30+ years. Knowing some of HWA's family it was just pretty much accepted as a known fact. If you look at his life, he really did not have anyone in his family that he was close to. I remember in the early 80's a few AC students were invited to & had dinner with HWA & a female student confided she was shocked at his bragging about his expensive candlelabras of naked women & said his dinner conversation pretty much trended down to a continuous rambling talk about sex.

Anonymous said...

3:01 believe what you want, but I never said it didn’t happen. I have spoken against what people call evidence here. All of which is speculation, bias and assumptions. Even your go to court assumption.

The problem is the lack of quality in the low class comments here. And the oozing hatred behind the rumor spouting for proof.

And, not a soul here has accomplished anything great to qualify them as HWA critics. They are just wannabe little Hitlers that went nowhere even in the WCG and ac.

It’s like a pack of wolves here who pick on the weakest wolf knowing they can’t fight back and defend themselves. Herbert Armstrong is dead, in case you critics don’t know. Get on with your lives and do something positive for a change. This is not the way of true Bible believers. But of scoundrels. Sorry, but that’s the reality here.


Anonymous said...

I think I can honestly say I've been on both sides of this issue now.

The arguments succinctly put forward by 6/19 3:01 are the reasons why I believed that HWA was guilty of incest with his daughter.

However, at the same time thanks to the arguments of 64 I believe that I failed to give HWA the benefit of the doubt.

With so many women, especially in Australia at present, coming out years even decades after an alleged incident of sexual harassment or rape to destroy the reputation and careers of various men in positions of power without due process; and then once the damage is done a journalist or news network finally decides to scratch the surface of the story and look closer that we learn that the case isn’t as cut and dried or open-and-shut as we were originally led to believe; I've come to the conclusion that cries of "sexual harassment" or "rape" years after the event should not be automatically believed. We need to uphold the eternal principle of "innocent until proven (beyond a reasonable doubt) guilty." I know I might be labeled sexist, misogynist, and whatever other label is thrown about nowadays to get people with opposing views silenced, but I believe victims need to speak out as close as possible to when the crime was committed so the likelihood of definitive evidence can be acquired (eg DNA, medical, etc) otherwise we have situations like we find ourselves today with rumors, hearsay, speculation, damaged reputations, ruined careers, broken families, self-harm and suicides, etc. that these allegations can breed.

Now although there's a lot that I don't agree with HWA on, in this particular issue of whether he is guilty or innocent I have to say after all of these years I’m now agnostic, that is, neutral. I don’t know. I hope he wasn’t guilty of such an abhorrent act. But, it would’t surprise me if he was guilty knowing what human nature is like and how in recent decades it’s been revealed so many historical figures, men in particular, whom we’ve looked up to with high esteem in the Western world, have kept a variety of sexually immoral skeletons in their closets.

Anonymous said...

I get what you are saying. I also think there are important distinctions regarding hwa’s ten years or more mistreatment of his daughter starting at age 13.
The mental/emotional/spiritual harm, lost trust, embarrassment, guilt, fear, dependence, arrested development, etc that occurred to Dorothy would have affected her much more profoundly than an accusation of a single assault.
She was groomed which changes how one responds. She would probably believe she had some culpability and other false thoughts and emotions that are too awful for me to write down.
So, she had a lot to deal with and didn’t have the tools or knowledge to understand what was fully happening to her.
Years later, she let what happened seep out as she probably began coming to grips with what actually occurred and to see what trusted people’s response would be.
She never denied what occurred and apparently was given a “living” through the wcg.
She did not bring the incest up publicly years later. It was disclosed within a year or few years from first hearing it by those who heard hwa say it himself.
So, I draw a major distinction between those revealing a recent confession and those who make a public accusations/indictments many years after the fact.
Anyway, such an ugly thing to think about.

Anonymous said...

So, what about the Lochner tape?
I have never seen or heard the tape. But I knew most of the individuals surrounding the tape. And, that makes me very suspicious.

First, decades ago I sat in a class assembly held weekly at AC. In that assembly HWA presented the new book on sex to the students and faculty. In his presentation he described some of the content to us. One was a description of how to help overcome the human drive for sexual relief without sinning. Yes, he spoke about what was written in the book about masterbation. If you want to know what he explained get the book and do some research for a change. Basically it was how to help the body take care of the situation itself. The end result would be what is called a "wet dream."

Now, all the faculty of the day was there. Including Floyd Lochner. He was the physical ed. teacher, who ran the early morning exercise program for the students. Around 6am as I recall.

Later Art Mokarow came to AC. That was a big deal then. He was described as a millionaire insurance agent with his own agency. And that he had given that up to come to AC. He started off teaching a swimming class for students. I took one of the classes, and learned how to dive. He told me that if I didn't dive head first into the water that he would physically throw me in. That was my first introduction to the millionaire. After he left the worldwide I read a couple of his works on religion. Not impressed.

Back to the assembly. I believe Lochner recorded the assembly and used that to tell others HWA kept a record of his self releases. Or, later asked HWA to give more details about what was described in the book and recorded the answer. Big deal, folks. HWA said enough in the assembly to let people understand that he learned what to do from personal experience. So, big deal, created by carnal minds to make themselves look upright and pure. Anybody here want to stand up and claim they are the new messiah without sin? I didn't think so.

But, if there is one here, you may now throw the first stone!!!!!

Things are not always like disgruntled critics claim, especially when dealing with obvious prejudice, bias, rumor, assumption and above all unconverted carnal minded critics.


Anonymous said...


It seems you are dismissing these men as liars because you did not like their manner. And, then you come up with a completely spurious theory on the content of the Lochner tapes though you have not heard these tapes. Further, as far as hwa and masturbation, the account (I believe by Henry Cornwall) is that Armstrong showed him the book containing a record of each time he did his thing.
It was not just what he said in a forum at AC.

Anonymous said...

4:33 you, as usual, miss the point. It was no secret.

And, yes I had personal experience with most of these people. Because of that, I got to see and work with them on a level most here did not have. Because of that I would rather have more trust worthy witnesses. Not from some who wanted to bring down the WCG in the first place. At least in a Real trial they would have to swear to tell the truth. And, if not there would be penalties to pay. Here there are none.

People here don’t read too well. As the book I quoted said, the subject at hand deals with a man’s health. So, anyone needing to read his health would keep a record.

It’s time for some folks to raise their level of understanding, and scruples, and drop the dirty mind syndrome.

But, of course, talking to children can leave one flabbergasted, as they can’t understand adult things.

Let’s see, have you, or Lochner, or Mokarow, or any person here never ever done what you so joyfully revel in accusing HWA of doing? It is mankind’s nature, only children don’t understand until their bodies take over.

What is the complaint against one man that everyone else has done, and more than likely is still doing today? Why is he so rotten and you are not?

The real answer is hypocrisy on a mass scale!

If you want a real biblical reason HWA, and others, disqualify for their ministry it is when they take another wife if the first dies. A minister may have one wife period. Not one at a time. Read your scripture.

I know of one ministry where the son left his father’s ministry and started a new group over that question.

So, if one just has to destroy someone’s reputation, do it with real biblical reason, not sadistic rumor, assumption and bias. Don’t be like a Marion McNair and do it for revenge because of being defrocked. By the way, do you know Robinson’s reason? All the people I knew personally did this nonsense because of a grudge. What’s yours?

Anonymous said...

You are very naive, 9:00. Criminals are absolutely normal upwards of 99% of their waking hours. The only times they are usually criminal or bad is when they commit criminal acts. The rest of their time, they are hiding in plain site, being totally normal. The effective ones are very successful in hiding their criminal acts. In fact, you have to get fairly close even to a sociopath to know that he is doing anything wrong. Con men are extremely convincing, and virtually undetectable right up until they are caught and exposed. People in the church were sometimes closet smokers who were so careful that they never caught. Same way with other vices, or petty crimes.

But, hey! Believe whatever keeps you happy and halfway sane!

Anonymous said...

You just described yourself and the rest of humanity. Sorry, I already knew that. Can you spot any of them here? :)

Anonymous said...


You aren't really making sense. Do you think the contents of a forum given to students in Big Sandy by Herbert Armstrong covered HWA's use of a log book to record each time he did his thing? It sounds like that is what you are saying, but to believe that would be absurd.

The point of the original post is the incestuous rape of his daughter over a period of 10 or more years. You have somehow wanted to focus on his masturbation and said people are hypocrites for condemning HWA for something they have done. But, no one really cares about that. It's the incest. Why do you not seem to care about that?

Anonymous said...

1:57 don’t you read?

I wrote that it MAY have happened, and it MAY NOT have happened.
The bottom line is, no matter what concocted twist guessers here put on it it is still all hearsay, rumor, twisted assumptions and pure unadulterated bias by disgruntled individuals.

I worked weekly with her husband for a year or more and he never once spoke of, or showed any animosity towards the church, or HWA. If anyone had a right to he would have, based on all the tripe posted here.

“To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men.
For we ourselves also were sometimes,
Serving divers lusts and pleasures,
Living in malice and envy,
Hateful and hating one another.

But after that the KINDNESS and LOVE of Elohim our Savior toward man appeared.” Titus 3:3-4

When will it appear here?


Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...


I have followed your self-righteous rant without commenting, but it has reached the point of critical mass. It simply has to be challenged. Herbert and his son were both self-absorbed perverts and had NO business leading a Church or "teaching" others. Neither one of them met the standards which Jesus Christ or Paul established for leaders within God's Church, and it is frankly perverse to suggest otherwise.

Your comments remind me of what the saints at Corinth did with the man who was openly carrying on an affair with his father's wife. Paul told them that ignoring and/or tolerating that man's sin had corrupted/tainted the entire congregation! True Christians are supposed to serve, nurture, and strengthen each other - NOT lord it over each other and berate others for things which they themselves are in no position to even talk about.

I hope and pray that Herbert and Garner Ted repent and receive forgiveness for their sins and will someday make it into God's Kingdom (I wouldn't be looking for them in the First Resurrection if I were you). And remember, Scripture does say that leaders will be judged more harshly than us peons. GOD holds them to a higher standard - a standard and judgement in which you and I don't have any input.

Finally, I have participated in this forum for many years now, and I have detected some bitterness and malice here. However, it has been my experience that the source of most of that has been from the folks who continue to be associated with an ACOG and/or continue to believe in Armstrong's teachings. For myself, and most of the other regular commentators who appear here, we are motivated by a desire to help our hurting and deluded brethren to heal, recapture their ability to think for themselves, and reclaim some measure of control over their own lives! Most of us are trying to help deceived folks step into the light! From my perspective, that is the epitome of kindness and love.

Anonymous said...

7:03 you have a funny way of doing this: “For myself, and most of the other regular commentators who appear here, we are motivated by a desire to help our hurting and deluded brethren to heal, recapture their ability to think for themselves, and reclaim some measure of control over their own lives! Most of us are trying to help deceived folks step into the light! From my perspective, that is the epitome of kindness and love.”

You basically offer the “crimes” according to your definition. But there is no real option offered by you. I am surprised that you and others are unable to see what you are doing. And calling me self-righteous does not excuse the ignorance and nonsense here.

“and I have detected some bitterness and malice here. However, it has been my experience that the source of most of that has been from the folks who continue to be associated with an ACOG and/or continue to believe in Armstrong's teachings.”

I beg to differ sir, it is just the opposite.

At least I am beginning to get through, and I haven’t even touched on 5% of what I have to present. And, guess what my over assuming friend, I AM NOT A MEMBER OF ANY COG, OR HANGING ON TO ARMSTRONG TEACHING. That nonsense is just an excuse for what goes on here.

For example: Everyone who has lived, is living now, or will live, is going to be saved. Did Armstrong teach that? You would be hard to find that.

You, and the others, are looking Longingly for some excuse to ignore the truth I speak of. Doubt anyone here even can guess why I use 64 as a designation. Hopefully someone knows.

This site is not the ecclesia, where internal complaints are to be taken. It is a place for dissidents to bitch, moan, and complain. A place for little hitlers to express their ugliness against the Bible and its teachings.

Yet, even this site can and will become a source of positive alternatives to past human nature errors.

It’s a great life, live it well, using the fruit of the spirit. Look them up, you’ll love them.


Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...


I am sorry that you are unable to rightly divide what this thread (and this blog) is designed to do, and I honestly doubt that there is anything that I (or anyone else) could say to enlighten you. One thing that Herbert Armstrong did get right was to quote that grand old proverb: one convinced against his will is of the same opinion still!

This blog has offered many alternatives to the readers here over the years, and even the somewhat eccentric views that have been presented here are usually superior to Herbie's interpretations of Scripture. By the way, you may want to reread my comment - I NEVER stated (or even suggested) that you were a member of an ACOG or agreed with Armstrong's teachings! Moreover, there are other commentators here who believe in universal salvation (I'm not one of them) - you are NOT unique in this respect. In fact, I'm sure that we could probably find some things on which you and I could even agree.

The ekklesia is made up of individuals whom God has called to his assembly - that includes some of the folks who comment here. Most of the folks here are pointing out doctrinal errors and the theological failings of Armstrong and his successors, NOT bitching, moaning, and complaining (as you suggested). Indeed, this is the place where the "little Hitlers" of the ACOGs are exposed, and people are liberated from their control.

Finally, it is a good life. I continue to be very thankful for the life which God has granted me, and that Jesus Christ was willing to die for my sins and advocate on my behalf after he was resurrected. And, thank you, I am very familiar with Paul's enumeration of the fruits of the Holy Spirit and continue to be amazed at the way that that Spirit moves me and others to exhibit them (I do love them). May God help all of us to become sources of positive alternatives to the errors of the past!

Anonymous said...

"I have followed your self-righteous rant without commenting,..."

Boy! That is RICH coming from Lonnie!

"Finally, I have participated in this forum for many years now, and I have detected some bitterness and malice here. However, it has been my experience that the source of most of that has been from the folks who continue to be associated with an ACOG and/or continue to believe in Armstrong's teachings."

Ahhh, you've got it backwards there, sport. The bitterness and malice definitely comes from the "former members", those that left and hate HWA and everything he taught. The Bible says they actually hate God, but Herb (and the Church) is something visible that they can attack.

Anonymous said...

Well, there you have it. 64 equates those on this site that challenge and debunk Armstrongism as haters of God and the Bible.
This explains why much of your writing made little sense.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Anonymous Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 5:18:00 AM PDT,

Sorry, Herbert Armstrong NEVER represented Almighty God, and the Worldwide COG NEVER constituted God's Church! Hence, our criticisms of Herbie and the now DEFUNCT Worldwide Church do NOT reflect a hatred for God or His Church.

According to Scripture, the gates of Hades would NEVER prevail against God's Church - Unlike Herbie's creation, it goes on and on! Moreover, THE TRUTH is found in the teachings of Jesus Christ, NOT in Herbie's perverted interpretations of those teachings!

Pride is a particularly pernicious and insidious sin - it is the one folks are most blind to. Satan could not see it in himself, and the folks whom he has deceived simply cannot see it in themselves.

Anonymous said...

8:53 and 10:41 If you believe what you wrote, then live the Messiah’s teaching and quit being a grump, and worse.

Plus, you need to read the negative posts and language used. Would the Messiah use those words?

You are describing yourselves very accurately and as you can see, others are starting to see you non- Christian conduct.

Nice seeing your lackluster responses, but they do describe you very accurately.

Please point out the positive alternative you present for those poor deceived Armstrongists. I certainly can’t find them in the posts here. But I do find the descriptions in the New Testament epistles, etc. I posted one from Titus.

So, time to move on. Have fun in trying to destroy other people.


Anonymous said...

"...the now DEFUNCT Worldwide Church..."

Apparently you equate The Church with a corporate entity. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Worldwide Church is far from defunct. It existed before HWA came on the scene, and it continues to exist even though he is gone and the corporate entity bearing the name WCG is no more.

"THE TRUTH is found in the teachings of Jesus Christ, NOT in Herbie's perverted interpretations of those teachings!"

The teachings of Jesus Christ is what Herbert taught, not the Catholic/Protestant version you seem to espouse. That is why HWA is reviled on blogs such as this. Jesus was hated for it, and so is everyone that holds to it.

"Pride is a particularly pernicious and insidious sin - it is the one folks are most blind to. Satan could not see it in himself, and the folks whom he has deceived simply cannot see it in themselves."

I must completely agree with you on this point.

Anonymous said...

"Everyone who has lived, is living now, or will live, is going to be saved"

That is horrible! The most beautiful aspect to atheism is the finite nature of life; the knowledge that when we die, we are just gone! Clarity, purity are the cessation of consciousness. Why should anyone be forced to live forever, and ever, and ever? That is such cruel and unusual punishment!

I also question the motives of anyone who would make themselves the elephant in the room towards the end of a rerun of a discussion. it's like, "Hi, I'm not a follower of HWA, and am not a member of any ACOG, but why are all you bad, nasty people trashing Mr. Armstrong and the truth that he taught? I was there and knew everyone who was important, even discerned all of their deep inner secrets, and you peons who were never important are just plain wrong!" What a bunch of sh!t!

Anonymous said...

7:43 Thanks. Your language just made my point.


Anonymous said...

"Your language just made my point"

Your judgmentalism just proved that you are an Armstrongite minister or wannabee!

Anonymous said...

Ah the soothingness of atheism you love to reveal your true self in. But many see your true self anyway. Providence from God ? Karma ? Discernment a gift from God.

Great pity you live a double life. A two faced athiest who pretends to be a Christian.

Anonymous said...

"The most beautiful aspect to atheism is the finite nature of life; the knowledge that when we die, we are just gone! Clarity, purity are the cessation of consciousness. Why should anyone be forced to live forever, and ever, and ever? That is such cruel and unusual punishment!"

No one will be forced to live forever. Those that desire eternal life will happily accept God's way and embrace it and joyfully live it.

Those that don't want to live forever will reject God's way, with full knowledge and understanding of what they are doing, and will die. It will be just as you describe it, a cessation of consciousness, forever.

Anonymous said...

Jesus was able to recognize when the Pharisees and Sadducees were just messin' with him.

But, I'm not messing with you about this one thing. Not wanting to live forever can be for reasons other than rejecting God's way. A man taught you that! It can simply be not wanting to live forever. Even if your life has been a relatively good one.

Anonymous said...

8:43 wrote:

“ Your judgmentalism just proved that you are an Armstrongite minister or wannabee”

Your judgmental is just proved you don’t know a think about what you are doing. That’s the problem with too many here. You biases make you dream all kinds of silly things, except what the truth is.

This is the only way to justify your false premises, I.e. claim that the one who disagrees with you is something else, which they are not. Sorry you have to make up things to make yourself look good. Doesn’t work. Sorry.

Anonymous said...

5"00 wrote "Your judgmental is just proved you don’t know a think about what you are doing. That’s the problem with too many here. You biases make you dream all kinds of silly things, except what the truth is."

Oh gee it a rest 5:00! You sound like a prepubescent 6-grade school girl and is part of the mean girls club. You clear do not think through your comments before you post them. Whining about those that disagree with you makes you look like a fool.

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