Tuesday, June 13, 2023

The Black God: Science and the Ethnocentric Doctrine of God of Armstrongism

 

A Sub-Saharan African Bearing Y-chromosome Haplogroup A



The Black God

Science and the Ethnocentric Doctrine of God of Armstrongism

by Scout

 

“So Adam looked like Jesus Christ. Adam also looked like God the Father. God said, "Let US make man after OUR image." Both Jesus Christ and God the Father look alike…When Jesus was on earth 4000 years later, He looked exactly like the Father. Jesus was "the express image of His {the Father's} person" (Heb. 1:3). But Jesus also looked like the average Jew!   Since Adam looked like Christ and Christ looked like the average Jew, then Adam — the first man — must have resembled the Jew. Adam therefore was a white man as are the Jews! Jews are not Negroes, as a few colored people contend. The Jews are Whites.”    Herman L. Hoeh, The Race Question, The Plain Truth Magazine, April 1957.  

 

Herman Hoeh was wrong in believing that God looks like a White man.  If God has a body, then he looks like a Black man.   If one wishes to believe that God is corporeal and that the Imago Dei refers to nothing more than physical appearance, then one must be willing to accept its implications.  And these implications must be informed by science.  The days are fading away where one might claim to preach a Biblical message and ignore the findings of science.  For that reason, empirical evidence must be taken seriously and theologically.  The Bible is the Book of God’s word and Nature is the Book of God’s works. Both books must be read. 

Early Modern Man in Brief

There was a serious conflict between early modern man and another pre-modern hominid species.  Nobody knows much about the details of the warfare but scientists do know something of the consequences.  Early man, it is believed by many, wiped out the other pre-modern hominid species.  But the moderns also interbred with the pre-moderns because we have traces of the genetics of the pre-moderns in our genomes.  This conflict happened about 40,000 years ago.  The modern men were Black and migrated out of Africa into other locations around the globe, including Western Europe.  The people who were wiped out were Neanderthals and they were light-skinned, light haired and had light eye color.  Herman Hoeh might refer to these pre-modern people as pre-Adamic.  The out-of-Africa Black men mutated into many different hominid forms including the White Europeans and East Asians. 

The Truth is Not in the Stars but in Our Genomes

Below is a Y-chromosome phylogenetic haplogroup mapping of the human race showing how haplogroups are logically nested and interrelated. 



If you plumb the depths of this, you will notice three prominent features.  Note that the passing of time starts on the left and runs to the right. 

1.     The earliest human beings are y-chromosome haplogroup A.  This haplogroup and some subclades are shown in the shaded area at the lower left.  These people are sub-Saharan Blacks.  Y-chromosome Adam (q.v., Wikipedia) was Black.  See the photograph at the top of this essay for a photo of the physical type.  

 

2.     Most modern Blacks are y-chromosome haplogroup E – well ensconced in the human Family Tree, if you check the chart above.  So don’t let anyone tell you that Blacks are pre-Adamic. It is ironic that a few Armstrongists and Christians claim a pre-Adamic origin for Blacks.   In fact, almost all Whites and Asians have some Neanderthal (true pre-Adamites) ancestry.  African Blacks have essentially no Neanderthal ancestry because Neanderthals originated in Eurasia and did not make it to Africa.

 

3.     Lastly, a topic that I have written about elsewhere, the haplogroup mapping does not correspond in its logical structure to the traditional interpretation of the glossed “Table of Nations” in Genesis 10.  Understand that the logical structure of the haplogroup map is not something fabricated for easy reference.  It is hard-coded in our DNA.

HAL and the Black God

Herman Hoeh deduced that God is, in appearance, a White man.  His logic is given in the quotation at the top of this essay.  I will refer to that as the Herman Hoeh Algorithm, HAL for short.  HAL no doubt informs the White Supremacist thinking found among some Armstrongists.  If a person has always been a White racist then think how nicely such views are supported by Armstrongism.  No repentance required.  It would be unsurprising if Armstrongism has attracted such people over the years. 

But, alas, if the first man was Black and we apply HAL to this known scientific fact, then God is Black in appearance.  Adam looks like Jesus who looks like God.  Jesus then might have been descended from Black Jews – Jews who trace their ancestry to a migration into North Africa at the time of the Exodus.  Perhaps, that is why he came to his own and his own received him not.  Black Jews still have difficulty being accepted in modern-day Israel.  Maybe this is why Simon of Cyrene, held by some to be a Black from North Africa, was willing to help Jesus with the cross.  Conjectures could abound. 

If one believes that God has a body in his essence, then HAL and science dictate that God looks like a Black man.  God, Jesus and Adam are all Black men.  If God has a body, then his body must have racial properties.  And Herman Hoeh discovered how to deduce these racial properties from the Bible and originated HAL.  The problem is, he did not have the science to know what Adam, looked like.  So, he erroneously deduced that God was a White man. 

The God of Christianity

In orthodox Christian dogma, God has neither a body nor racial category.  Christians are not pre-occupied with what God looks like.  That fixation, it seems, is owned by mostly Restoration Movement denominations like the WCG and its myriad offshoots.   And some of the prominent denominations in this Movement have had trouble in adopting a mature and inclusive view of race.  

Jesus looks like a Jew even though in Western Christianity Jesus is groundlessly depicted as a Western European.  The Ashkenazi Jews are mixed with European ancestry and have a Europeanized appearance.  But Jesus looked like a Mizrahi Jew, the people who are descended from the Jews of Jesus’ day.  Anthropologists know what the average Jews of that time looked like.  And even Armstrongists have made the point that Jesus looked like a non-descript average Jew.  The physical anthropology is that Jesus was about 5’1”, weighed about 110 lbs., had an olive or brown complexion, aquiline nose and curly or perhaps even frizzy hair.  To a person who is of Western European ancestry and believes in British-Israelism, Jesus looked like a “Gentile”.  His chances of being admitted to Ambassador College would have been small. He is too dark and too small.  

In Christian orthodoxy, God is formless spirit and can manifest himself as he wills – a whirlwind, a rock, a pillar of fire – and he has no essential racial nature.  So, he could manifest himself as a White or Black man or an Indian Chief but that is a theophany and not what he is in his existential nature.  

He talked some racial smack at me and so I wrote back and told him that I was going to pray that God, throughout eternity, would always manifest himself to him as Moms Mabley, a famous black comedienne who would wear funny garb.  He wrote back and said he did not know who Moms was.  He hit me with some scriptures about God’s glorious appearance.  I wrote back, I think, it has been a while ago, and told him that maybe God would make an exception just for people like him. 

Summary Statement

You can see why some people have an enormous emotional investment in Herman Hoeh’s legendarium and are reluctant to leave it.   Some people need to feel that they are a part of God’s inner circle.  Nothing could be better for White people than to be a member of God’s race.  This means that for eternity they are more like God than non-White people are, not as result of spiritual formation but as a result of racial status determined at birth (“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh”). White people would be the only people who are actually in the image of God, if image refers to the physical body. Thankfully, this view is malarkey.  God does not have a body and racial properties.  He made all races and both genders to be in his image.  And Paul describes in Ephesians 4:23-24 the only image that counts when he wrote, “…be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to clothe yourselves with the new self, created according to the likeness (kata Theon) of God in true righteousness and holiness.”

 


29 comments:

Anonymous said...

I do NOT care what Jesus' skin color was on earth. I care about what He ACCOMPLISHED and how that AFFECTS me. I DO care that He took MY sins and ALL of our sins who knew NO SIN. No wonder He was sweating drops of blood leading up to the drinking of that cup in the garden that would separate Him from His Father! Thank you, Jesus!
Praise Your Holy Name!!!
We bow down before You!

Anonymous said...

Of course blacks are pre-adamite...
.as are whites an Asians. Adam was just a - the first) white man who was tested on the exercise of free will.....God brought the animals to him and looked what wouldty. Some city with happen..... The other test did not go well.....Cain was afraid for OTHERS who would NOT recognize him. OF CORSE non of Adam's, off spring would commit the abomination of marrying their sister. Cain build a city.... some city with 6 people... Haha
Nck

Tonto said...

God is light. Light is all colors combined, as is shown by a prism. Man is made in Gods image.

DW said...

Anon@ 11:51, amen and hallelujah to that! As a born again Christian, that is ALL that matters to me. It is all that should matter to anyone claiming to be a Christian. We are IN CHRIST, died in our sins with Him and rose, in spiritual newness of life with Him. Color of His skin, height, weight, etc do not make one whit of difference to a believer.

I was always under the impression that HWA stole his total "physicality" view of God from Seventh Day Adventists. They, to this day, have multiple, grievous heresies because they are complete physicalists. They cannot see past the physical. This also explains the SDA/Armstongism shared belief in soul sleep. Additionally, both groups picture God the Father as a corporeal man who literally has a finger which He used to write the 10 commandments. They have no concept of anthropomorphic language used throughout Scripture. That is why SDAs and Armstongism, have a serious misunderstanding of what born again means. The spiritual aspects of theology elude most of them.

SDAs understanding mirrors HWAs, yet they were around 85+ years before he came along, so he must have borrowed those simplistic, yet outrageous misunderstandings from them. But these are really serious issues that have eternal consequences and cause/taint the vast majority of the many heresies they have in common.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

"The Bible is the Book of God’s word and Nature is the Book of God’s works. Both books must be read." Love those lines! Too many folks simply do not get this truth.

The genetic science included in your article is unassailable. Genetic testing is now relatively inexpensive, and I encourage everyone who can afford it to do so. White supremacists are soooooo ignorant of this subject - most of them have ZERO comprehension of even their own individual ancestral origins. It has been so rewarding for me to uncover African ancestry in folks who thought that they were lily-white through and through and to uncover Native American ancestry in folks who reviled "Indians." Ironically, most African Americans find that they have significant European ancestry when they test their DNA. The truth is that MOST of our assumptions about race and kinship are divorced from reality!

Herbert Armstrong liked to reference Revelation 1:14-16 in connection with this subject. He obviously thought that God was an old white man - just like him!

Anonymous said...

Has anyone ever considered that God continued to create other people to begin populating other cities? Of course, Adam was the first & Eve was the 2nd. I wouldn't rule it out. God is always creating. I think God could easily have created more people to start the population of other cities.

Anonymous said...

God is invisible. He has no color.

Well, at least HH didn't fall for the trinity balderdash.

Anonymous said...

Thank you, Jesus!

How long has Jesus been reading this blog? Why didn't anyone tell me? I've got a few things to tell him.

RSK said...

Well, this thread is going to be fun to look at later tonight.

Anonymous said...

Funny how Armstrong's critics keep on and on and on about the race issue, milking it for all it it is worth, while they never admit to the far greater evils and bald-faced lies of Traditional Christianity. Nope, not a bit, even though Traditional Christianity and Armstrong were cut from the same cloth. It's a non-stop smear and hate campaign, and a search for knowledge has not one iota to do with it.

Anonymous said...

Scout wrote:

“ If God has a body, then his body must have racial properties.”

How do you come up with that reverse ‘reasoning,??

Since there were no races then, how does that work?

And, why all this race baiting drivel lately? What’s your point? Perhaps this is just a reflection of your racism, ya’ think?

All peoples are valued in the eyes of Yahweh. So, why do you strive to cause strife among His people?

Did not He give up His only Son for ALL, no matter their race or skin tone? I think you are missing the boat, and implying too much of your own bias to others! That won’t make you feel better, but conversion definitely will.

NO2HWA said...

2:37 whines "Funny how Armstrong's critics keep on and on and on about the race issue, milking it for all it is worth, while they never admit to the far greater evils and bald-faced lies of Traditional Christianity. "

This blog is about Armstrongism, not about anything committed in the name of Christianity now or in the past.

How come you never bitch about the Shiites, Sunnis, Hindus, or communist atheists? They have all committed atrocities in the name of their deity or political/economic ideology.

Over 20 million people were murdered by the Chinese Communists and I have never heard you complain about that.

Hitler and his regime slaughtered over 11 million people and you never whine about that.

7-12 million were slaughtered by the Russian communist regime and you never whine about that.

Over 1 million people were slaughtered in the Rwanda genocide and you never whine about that.

Close to 3 million people were slaughtered by the Cambodian communist regime, and never have you whined about that.

There are plenty of places to read about atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. Go there and read about it. Otherwise, give it a rest.

Anonymous said...

Ouch! Someone is going to have major butthurt besides Bob Thiel! LOL!

Anonymous said...

This blog is about Armstrongism,

Actually, it's about Traditional Christianity. That's what is promoted here non-stop.

Anonymous said...

ERRATUM: Sorry, the next to the last paragraph of my essay should read as follows:

"I was discussing this idea on this blog some years ago and aroused the ire of a reader. He talked some racial smack at me and so I wrote back and told him that I was going to pray that God, throughout eternity, would always manifest himself to him as Moms Mabley, a famous black comedienne who would wear funny garb. He wrote back and said he did not know who Moms was. He hit me with some scriptures about God’s glorious appearance. I wrote back, I think, it has been a while ago, and told him that maybe God would make an exception just for people like him."


I have a new but bad laptop. It has a supersensitive keyboard and I get lots of keying errors. The first sentence was deleted and I did not notice it until later.


Scout

Anonymous said...

"Actually, it's about Traditional Christianity. That's what is promoted here non-stop."

So? You do not have to read here.

https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/8769715/6

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:16

"Since there were no races then, how does that work?"

Since there were no humans then, why does God have a body in human form? If he has a human-form body, his body can have racial properties. Armstrongist Ethnocentric theology asserts the follow propositions:

1. God has a male body formed like a human body.
2. God's race is White because according to Hoeh, Jesus, Adam and God all look alike. And Jews are White.
3. The "image of God" spoken of in Genesis refers to God's phyiscal form.

From this, we may further deduce:

1. Only White people look like God and, therefore, only White people are in the image of God.
2. White people, by inheritance of racial characteristics, are more like God than non-White people.
3. Non-White people, even though converted, will be subordinate to converted, image-bearing White people ceteris paribus.

That's how it works.

I have followed the basic propositions with a few deductions. Armstrongists need to now the implications of what they believe. Many do not. They just absorb data without ever actually thinking about its ramifications. I have never heard an Armstrongist state explicitly the three deductions. But I have heard White supremacist talk from Armstrongists that is compatible with the three deductions. And I know of old WCG policies that are compatible with these deductions.

Typically, however, many Armstrongists do not see the broad family of White people as superior. They see only those who descend from certain Northwest European countries as fitting the mold.

The statement that leads the essay is from 1957 and represents the view of Classical Armstrongism. I do not know how many little denominations romping around Splinter Land
still believe this malarkey. My guess is that some of the younger generation does not.

If you become discourteous and snide, as is your wont, I will answer no more of your questions.


Scout

Anonymous said...

Miller 1:35

I have heard HWA touted as being racially pure - like Noah (putatively). This was in the Field House at Big Sandy back in the early Seventies. There is no doubt that race was a credential in the WCG in those days. Why would the minister say this and why would he act like it was an impressive part of HWA's personal profile. Can you imagine HWA's CV. It would start with, "I am pure White. Enough said."

HWA never had a genetic test but if he had he would have discovered that he had Neanderthal heritage like other Europeans. This was not just heritage from another race but another hominid species, Homo Neandethalensis. It is still possible, by going to HWA's relatives to determine what his ancestry is. This would be a nice project for one of the Splinter Groups.


Scout

Anonymous said...

"And you are lynching Negroes", said the Soviets...

Anonymous said...

6:48 wrote: “If you become discourteous and snide, as is your wont, I will answer no more of your questions. “

That is no answer at all.
You are attempting to use an idea that came along way after man was created to say things about the Creator that is not said in HIS Word.

That Word says we were created in His image. It does not say He was created in our image, as folks like you seem to think. An image can be made of most anything, and the coloring added after upon the image. Atheists and others always use this kind of ruse in presenting their twist on things. To me, your spin on this whole issue falls flat on its face.

Why do you think that kind of reasoning proves your point? I.e. Hoeh may have got it wrong, so because the Creator has a body it must be black since Hoeh implied it was white. It is neither since it shines in a glorified light. That includes all colors.

Again, why the desperate need to find non-existent racism, in twisting what is described in the Bible! What is your real agenda?

Anonymous said...

20:23 said: “ I have heard HWA touted as being racially pure - like Noah (putatively). This was in the Field House at Big Sandy back in the early Seventies. There is no doubt that race was a credential in the WCG in those days. Why would the minister say this and why would he act like it was an impressive part of HWA's personal profile. Can you imagine HWA's CV. It would start with, "I am pure White. Enough said."

=====
I have heard…? even if done, why are you using hearsay instead of finding solid evidence. Bias?
There is no doubt race was a credential… What? What in the world do you mean by “credential”? That could mean anything.
Why would a minister say…? My, my, he must have been a full kkk head monster to use the word pure. Don’t cha know pure is a dirty bad word? What if he had been describing a black man being pure in his generations? Would that make him a black supremacist?

Your argument is a prejudiced diatribe to try and make a desperate point to demonize another human being and group. What is your problem? If you spoke actual facts you might have a case. But, in my case I know it is not true, in fact, or in your twisted versions based on hearsay, bias, and assumptions.

Truth said...

I like how the Bible describes the color of God.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone.
Revelation 4:2‭-‬3 KJV

Anonymous said...

Two basic problems here. Part of the group has been conditioned to filter science through the Bible to arrive at their truths. The human genome, even if it did not go way over their heads, in their minds, can never inform or correct the Bible for people who believe that Herbert W. Armstrong's interpretations and perspectives of the Bible are pure, unadulterated truth forever and ever.

The first rays of optimistic sunshine here are the fact that if someone is exposed to facts and ideas sufficiently, in mounting their defenses of their current beliefs, they are perhaps induced to turn what is said over and over in their heads and consider it more deeply. Eventually, some of the ideas to which they now take umbrage will begin to make sense. This is how many of us arrived here, now, with totally different ideas about the races, and national identities. And of course continuing failed prophecies assisted those deeper thinking processes as well.

Another problem is that some of us are from back in the days of classic Armstrongism, and we have very specific memories of exactly what was said by HWA, GTA, and other top figures of the Armstrong movement. In many cases, those things are what caused us to leave. There are others who were either not there, or who have listened to decades of backpedaling and revisionist history about the old days. This conflicts with our own testimony, but who do you think they believe?

In my field, I have occasionally encountered some people who are incapable for one reason or another of being educated. Others, with more experience, do eventually respond. Given enough time and factual materials, most people can reevaluate and change. Others will always be subject to the manipulation which comes from those whom they see as stronger. Most manipulators are bottom feeders, realizing that there are plenty of people on the bottom searching for mentors and guides. It's actually a game to them, finding and collecting their marks, and then exploiting them.

Anonymous said...

Hi Scout,

I am the person you are referring to. The title of the post was “When Herbert Armstrong Said Interracial Marriage Would Be Satan's Next Attack,” dated Friday, February 19, 2021.

You wrote:

“I was discussing this idea on this blog some years ago and aroused the ire of a reader.”

You did not arouse my ire, it was me that aroused your ire.

In response to what I wrote you said:

“My guess is that on the day you die you will be just a racist as you are now.”

I responded in part with:

“Thanks NEO for your comment.

“I thought your comment [of 2018] was well articulated and that is why I retained it and then quoted it; as I do with others when someone articulates a point well;...

“I apologise if by quoting you and then expressing my view that it caused offence.

“I was honestly expressing my view and realized by doing so I was vulnerable to ridicule; but I can accept that.”

You wrote:

“He wrote back and said he did not know who Moms was. He hit me with some scriptures about God’s glorious appearance. I wrote back, I think, it has been a while ago, and told him that maybe God would make an exception just for people like him."

I did not hit you with any Scriptures about God’s glorious appearance.

After saying that I did not know Moms you never wrote back and told me so. All you wrote was:

“No, that justice.”

I did quote Rev 11:15 in a response to your last address to me; but that Scripture does not describe God’s glorious appearance.

Ex 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. (NIV).

You also wrote in the exchange:

“I hope Jesus will forever appear to you as a Moms Mabley look-alike.”

I thought it perverse that a Christian would hope that I would have a mental image of Jesus Christ as a woman; encouraging me to break the ‘spirit’ of the commandment.

I would appreciate in the future, that if you want to belittle me please leave God out of it. I don’t mind you calling every name under the sun, running me down, but invoking Jesus Christ in it is a bit too much.

BTW, when I respond in any exchange this is the Scripture I try to keep in mind:

Pr 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

Regards

Anonymous said...

I always thought it was droll that the architect of racial theory in the WCG was a German. It was like a bit of the dreaded Assyrian Reich was encapsulated in a small but zealous apocalyptic Millerite denomination. It is a tawdry history and many would like to revise it. But a strategy with more integrity is to approach the issues head on and acknowledge that something was wrong back in those days.

I had a correspondence with Herman Hoeh back some years ago. He was a member of what was to become GCI and I thought he might be ready to talk. I was interested in why WCG embarked on the path that it did with regard to racial theory. And I discovered that, ironically, Hoeh as a historian had a misapprehension of what the history of the WCG actually was. His response was that the WCG view of history was never theologically based. I believe I cited how that at Big Sandy at the Feast of Tabernacles in the early Seventies Blacks had to sit in a separate section in the big Feast Building. And there was a separate Fun Shows for Blacks and a separate one for Latinos. I was sitting next to a Black buddy from my church area in the Whites Only section. We were talking and did not pay much attention to our seating. Almost immediately a deacon came and extracted him and made him move to the Black section. I asked the deacon why this was the case (I had not yet learned that you were not supposed to ask questions) and I remember him saying, "God's Church believes in segregation." Hoeh's view was that WCG racial policy was rooted in theological belief but a practicality. The WCG had to get along with the larger society which in many quarters at that time deplored racial integration. He sent me a bunch of newspaper clippings recounting how Blacks were discriminated against in those days. He seemed to be working the angle that the WCG was not really racist but was conforming to dodge popular ire in a reactionary society.

In fact the WCG's racial policies were based on theology. As was evident in many published articles and implemented policies. For the WCG, it was God who did not intend for the races to intermingle in any way. Not Herman Hoeh who was only worried about how the WCG would get along with the State of Texas. I cited the body of written theology to Hoeh in a subsequent letter and he finally said that I should be more willing to forgive.

I do not think it is a matter of simply forgiveness. It is a matter of a true picure of the historical development of the WCG - the development that the deniers and revisionsts want to pretend is fantasy and then sweep under the carpet. The WCG does not have a sterling history in the theology of race. Many Christian churches can also be indicted. But there are always a doughty few of the heavily indoctrinated who come to the defense of error.

But, alas, my little essay is not really about race or racism. It is about how the Armstrongist theological position that God has a human-like body leads to conclusions that go against the current of Classical Armstrongism. This is because of new information coming to us from the sciences. Armstrongism, like Christianity, must respond constructively to the findings of science or seek redoubt in now archaic twentieth century ideas and become progressively more irrelevant. That's all I am saying.

Scout

Anonymous said...

7:14

I wrote, "His response was that the WCG view of history was never theologically based"

I should have written, "His response was that the WCG view of RACIAL history was never theologically based"


Scout

Anonymous said...

The fact is, instead of being on the cutting edge, WCG consistently placed themselves on the wrong side of history over their fear of the authorities! I mean HWA and GTA could have been marching with Dr. Martin Luther King like other pastors and rabbis, but they cowered to the state of Texas. Also, they deliberately subjected African-American brethren to additional inconvenience by actually making Big Sandy the official feast site for Black members! And we have to remember sabbath services in major cities like Los Angeles, where they had L.A. #2 church for people of color. Texas certainly didn't need to be impressed by what we did in California!

When the court case was going through integrating Pasadena's public schools, there was concern that Imperial Schools and Ambassador College might come under scrutiny. Rod Meredith, at Friday night Bible Study in the AC gym, mentioned that he hoped the government officials and agencies would not request or obtain the original founding documents of Imperial and AC. He said they contained stipulations about these two educational institutions being for whites only. Up until that point in time, the Black and Chicano employees of the church and college, and brethren, were not permitted to have their children attend Imperial or AC. Their children all went to the public schools. In the early '70s, due basically to fear of the government, and not what was right or wrong, policy changed, and AC and Imperial were finally integrated, but with some really strict codes of conduct related to dating and social activities.

Bob Flores, in the 1960s, was the first hispanic student to attend AC. He was required to live in an apartment off campus, even though he was a minister's son. The cool thing about Bob and his sister was that they both married white people, following appeals and many counseling sessions involving their dad. The church actually approved it. I remember having had some discussions, while this was ongoing, with a black lady with whom I worked at AC. She had heard that Mr. Flores Sr. had shown the higher up ministers pictures of some of the cousins from the part of the family that was from Spain, showing that they had lighter skin and blue eyes. When Bob and his sister got their marriages green lit as a result, I remember commenting to my coworker that apparently the church wasn't concerned about Spaniards, they were more worried about the Indians (outdated name, but that is what we called Native Americans in those days). We heard a lot of negative things in class at AC about Indians, Italians, and Mexicans. The church taught us that we were in the "times of the Gentiles", when God had given them the minds of wild animals.

You guys have trouble believing Scout? I was there then too, only in Pasadena. I heard many of the things he heard in Texas. Seems the policies were totally in sync, geographically speaking. I'm even holding back on some of those things, because even today, they would deeply hurt some of our readers here. All I can say is, there must be a lot of millstones waiting for some people!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 11:18

Thanks much for your contribution to the examinaton of this issue. I also have a collection of other issues from Big Sandy that I could mention but the litany would become long. I thought this whole thing died out back in the Seventies, the Golden Age of Armstrongism. But I used to attend a congregation in the Southwest United States. And I was talking to one of the Hispanic members about the marriage of his son to a young White woman. He told me that the family had to submit a genealogy to the powers in Pasadena. And he said that they were not concerned about the Spanish ancestry but any presence of "yellow" races which I took to mean Native American ancestry. This was sometime in the Nineties.

The fact is, many Americans are intermarried with Native Americans. Ron Kelly was one eighth Osage. My guess is that very few Hispanics in the Southwest have no Native American ancestry. I recall when HWA remarried, there was a hub-bub about his second wife being Native American. I heard people draw parallels with Moses marrying an Ethiopian woman. His second wife, however, could easily pass for White. So I doubt she was much Native American. But some of the Pharisees had been critical. Hence, the defensive comparison of HWA to Moses.

Revisionists, rationalizers and deniers will claim that these are isolated incidents and a whole class of people cannot be condemned on this sparse evidence. They will claim that your testimony is untrue. It would be very useful to have the actual policy statements online for our perusal but who knows where they are. They could have been long ago shredded. One day a whole generation that knows these things as oral history will die off. Then the revisionists will be able to rewrite history with a free hand - like the Ministry of Truth in 1984. Occasionally, members of the Thought Police show up here.

Scout



Anonymous said...

I got to mention this before this thread goes way. One of the coolest things I ever saw was at the Fun Show at thee Feast of Tabernacles down in Big Sandy one year. A young Black man got up with a guitar and sang a great rendition of the Beatles song "Blackbird." It seemed so fitting. It was like a dream when you follow the lyrics and remember what the Feast meant to us back then.


Scout