Jesus, Perhaps
(Fair Use, A Mizrahi Jew)
The Legacy of Arianism, Part 2
Armstrongism and the Subordination of Jesus
By Scout
In another sense he (God) is “being itself,” in that he is the inexhaustible source of all reality, the absolute upon which the contingent is always utterly dependent …All the great theistic traditions agree.
- David Bentley Hart, from “The Experience of God”
There are two principal moments of error that render Arianism untenable. First, Arianism denies that the Holy Spirit is a person. Second, Arianism denies the Deity of Jesus Christ – a belief known as Subordinationism. Both moments of error have influenced Armstrongism. I addressed the first issue earlier and in this writing, I will address the second issue.
Arius of Alexandria not only denied that the Holy Spirit was a God Person, he also relegated Jesus to a subordinate position in relationship to God the Father. This was not just a diminishing in role of the incarnate Jesus but a diminishing in the ontology of the Logos. Arius had strange ideas but then again he was an ascetic and probably wasn’t getting enough to eat (for the incurably literalist, that was meant to be tongue-in-cheek). The relegation was of a radical sort. Arius believed that Jesus was a finite being created by God, perhaps, a kind of great angel.
In modern times, we find Arianism within the Millerite Movement. The Adventists were originally Semi-Arian. And Robert Coulter, former President of the Church of God Seventh Day (CG7), stated in a 2008 interview, “When I grew up in the church, it was Arian. It taught the preexistence of Christ, but Christ was not God. I remember the first time I read the phrase "God the Son" and it made me mad.” Coulter also said, “Arianism tends to degrade the position of Christ …” – an understatement that is the theme of this essay.
Why the Armstrongist Belief in Subordinationism Doesn’t Work
When I was in the pre-1995 WCG, I was aware of the fact that Jesus did not get anywhere near top billing. God the Father, Moses, The Law, prophecy, even the Feast of Tabernacles, all eclipsed Jesus and the Gospel he brought. In Christian churches, Jesus is very prominent. The message of salvation is very prominent. I have seldom ever heard Christians talk about Moses and The Law of Moses. The focus was always on New Testament behavioral standards.
Somewhere in history, Armstrongism departed from the Arianism of the Church of God Seventh Day to become Semi-Arian. I have not tried to establish who was involved or when. Armstrongism did not wholly abandon Arian Subordinationism but asserted a form of Subordinationism that was different from the CG7 doctrine. Armstrongists believe that Jesus is God, unlike the early CG7. But Armstrongists also believe Jesus is a secondary God, Deuteros Theos. And there is a fatal flaw in the logic of this reasoning.
God is absolute. God is absolute because, quoting Hart above, “he is the inexhaustible source of all reality.” God brings all that he wills into existence. And his will is not limited. “…With God all things are possible.” This means he is absolute and not relative. He is not just greater than other beings on some measurable scale. The scale does not apply to him. This is because he can create reality. And here is the rub for Armstrongism.
Absoluteness is like Infinity. There is no Infinity that is greater than another infinity. Infinity is not relative. One infinite number set is not bigger than another infinite number set. The integers are not greater than the real numbers. If two beings are absolute, one cannot be ontologically greater than the other. They may assume different roles but in existential essence, they are co-equal.
When Armstrongists adopted the belief that Jesus is God based on the first few verses of the Gospel of John, they admitted that Jesus is absolute. The verses in John support this because they show Jesus to be the great Creator – and being Creator is the source of absoluteness. One is unlimited because one can create reality. So, Jesus cannot be less than God the Father in existential essence. Jesus can certainly be less than God the Father in assigned role. On the other hand, two finite beings can be of different capabilities. Although it is a different subject, I believe the Armstrongist form of Subordinationism logically renders God the Father and Jesus to be two finite beings, one greater than the other.
For some, this will seem like philosophy unmoored from scripture and, hence, will not have credibility. Let me counteract that view. Later in the Gospel of John, which starts with a declaration of the absoluteness of Jesus based on the fact that he is the operational Creator, there is a statement in chapter twenty made by Doubting Thomas. In John 20:28, Thomas refers to Jesus as “o theos”. This phrase is the word God, “theos”, preceded by the article “the” which is “o” or ‘ho” in Greek. This designation is reserved by ancient writers, both Biblical and Secular, for The God or the great God. Thomas’ statement places Jesus in the same class as God the Father by using the articular form “o theos” of him. Some theorize that this might just be an exclamation or an honorific. But my viewpoint is that the designation bears such weight that Jesus would not let it simply pass if it were not true. Jesus did not correct Thomas. Jesus let the statement stand. And it stands to this day. This is the only direct statement of Christ’s Deity in the New Testament.
Armstrongists are right in recognizing that Jesus is God but wrong in believing that he is subordinate to God the Father in essence.
Kenosis
But why do Armstrongists believe that Jesus is subordinate to God the Father? This seems to stem entirely from a statement Jesus made in John 14:28, “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” This is a direct contradiction of Doubting Thomas’ statement in John 20:28
. So, how can Jesus be both co-equal with God and at the same time lesser than God? When Jesus became incarnate, he emptied himself of many of his Godly attributes or capabilities, if we can call them that. Paul wrote in Philippians 2: “Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, assuming human likeness. And being found in appearance as a human, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death - even death on a cross.” (The word “equality” in this verse apparently does not prove ontological equivalence between the Father and Jesus but is a legal term that asserts equality in rights or privileges. See note in David Bentley Hart, “New Testament”.)
It is obvious that when Jesus reduced himself to mortality in a process called Kenosis, he became lesser than the Father. Jesus suddenly acquired the potential to die – am infirmity that has never pertained to the Father. And this is the source of the “greater than I” statement. The Father and Son are co-equal in existential essence but differ in economy or personal vocation and it is the co-equality in existential essence that is asserted by the Trinity. Arianism and Armstrongism do not acknowledge the co-equality between God the Father and God the Son in existential essence.
The Upshot
The legacy of Arianism has had an impact on both Armstrongist theology and praxis. Given this legacy, there is nothing surprising about Armstrongism. It is exactly what you would expect a modern church that had been influenced by Arianism to be like. You would expect such a church to see Jesus in a diminished role. Such a church would, therefore, not have a strong doctrine of grace. Hand-in-glove with a diminished doctrine of grace, it would have a strong pre-occupation with works as a factor in salvation. Because of the de-emphasis of Jesus, such a church would not see love as an important means of forming relationships. And the church’s doctrine of God might posit a limited God, a relative rather than absolute God, that fits the Arianist model of finite god Beings. Although HWA often spoke of how God raised him up to restore the truth after eighteen and a half centuries, his truth seems actually to be the natural offspring of Nineteenth Century Arianist Millerite theology.
Note: The photo at the top is of a Mizrahi Jew – a Jew native to the Middle East. Jesus would have resembled this kind of Jew not an Ashkenazi or a Sephardi. Both of those groups are a substantial part southern European. And, of course, all the pictures you find of Jesus in the West depict him as a Northwest European. I thought I would strike a note for authenticity.
60 comments:
Great post, Scout. Herbert Armstrong was rabidly anti-trinitarian. For him, ALL of the core doctrines of traditional Christianity were perverted and false. His mindset was basically: "if traditional Christians believe and teach something, it has to be wrong!" He ignored and/or dismissed the musings of the great theologians and biblical scholars, because he insisted that they lacked the guidance of God's Holy Spirit (which he degraded to an impersonal force).
Your observation about the logic of his modified binitarianism impacted both the central role of Christ in our salvation and the doctrine of grace was brilliant. This is an important component of the logic behind Armstrong's preoccupation with Torah and works as a crucial part of the salvation formula. Instead of Christ fulfilling Torah and magnifying the principles which underpinned that legislation for us, Armstrong views Christ as an example of just how scrupulous Christians should be about observing Torah. And, as we have noted on many occasions over the years, this prompted Armstrong and his followers to reinterpret and/or ignore a great deal of what Scripture has to say on the subject. It was "here a little, there a little" instead of EVERYTHING in Scripture related to the subject!
Thank you for your post Scout. Informative indeed.
Enjoyed your note about the photo of the Mizrahi Jew. In the ‘World Tomorrow’ we shall all look like this. For the scripture tells as ‘we shall see Him as He is because we shall be like Him…’ I jest of course. But if we are to take the scripture as it stands literally, so it shall be…lol. We know so much, but understand so little. But within Armstrongism we know it all and understand it all ha ha….Keep the posts coming and I would love to hear a response from some of the ‘Leaders, shepherds and prophets’ of the cog movement.
"This is the only direct statement of Christ’s Deity in the New Testament."
, 14
.
No. The Word was God and became flesh - John 1:1
Did Arianism "influence Armstrongism", or did Armstrongism simply embrace an idea that's emotionally appealing. I find reading Jehovah's Witnesses dissident sites helpful in exposing the psychic motivations of many flawed doctrines. Unlike other groups, the JWs don't pull their punches. This group has relegated Christ to a created angel, and has instead put their headquarters Governing Body in His place. They constantly equate the GB with God the Father and infrequently mention Christ. So the real motivation for minimizing Christ is that the covet Christ's role. This is the same garbage as when Mose's pointed to himself rather than to God in the old testament. Lusting God's role is a secret sin that all narcissists are guilty of.
Anonymous 4:23
John 1 as you cite is commonly interpreted to identify Jesus as God. David Bentley Hart has done a translation of the New Testament and points out that this passage does not use "ho theos". It does not say that the Word was The God. It says the Word was god - little "g'. This means he belongs to the god category but is not The God in the fullest, transcendant sense. In the Trinitarian debates around the time of the Council of Nicaea, the first few verses of John 1 were used both for and against the idea that Jesus was The God.
Arius, in particular, believed that Jesus was the highest of God's created beings and was exalted to be referred to as god even though he was not Identified as The God. It is an interesting history. Hart has an appendix in his New Testament that deals with this as well as an annotation on John 1. It is worthwhile to read it.
So, no, John 1 does not make a clear statement about the Deity of Jesus. Doubting Thomas' made the only clear statement. And Thomas' statement has been challenged. My belief is that Jesus is God simply because I do not believe Jesus would permit Doubting Thomas to refer to him as "ho theos" if he were not The God. The confusion would be overwhelming for the church.
Scout
If a leader does not properly understand Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, and therefore cannot teach his followers properly, here is what happens: That leader, not having the faith or understanding to allow the Holy Spirit to do His work, becomes an enforcer. He demands and insists upon the type of behavior and attitudes which the words of the New Testament describe as being typical of the Spirit-begotten Christian. And, that leader's type of governance itself becomes a diminishment, as it devolves into man attempting to control a process which God is orchestrating.
As Scout has skillfully pointed out, Armstrong's understanding of Christ's divinity is inconsistent with the logic of what Scripture reveals about God. Herbie imagined two separate gods with one being inferior to the other one. This clearly contradicts the Hebrew notion of ONE God. Trinitarians believe and teach ONE God in three - united in mind, purpose, and character.
Herbie tried to explain this away by comparing God to a human family. For him, there was ONE FAMILY - composed of a Father and a Son. Moreover, he didn't even bother to address the question of how God lived within us - that our bodies were temples in which God's Spirit resided. In other words, if the Holy Spirit is not God, then how can God live within us (Christians). Does God share eternal life with us? OR Does an impersonal force impregnate us with eternal life? Please explain - Can someone reconcile Herbie's teaching with the logic of Scripture?
Continuation of my statement at 6:01
, where it states the Logos was god that this use of the term god without the Greek article, "could be used of any divine being, however finite: a god or a derivative divine agency, say, or even a divinized mortal." (Hart, New Testament, "Concluding Scientific Postscript."
but did in Chapter 20.
David Bentley Hart says of John 1:1
So John did not make Jesus clearly God semantically in John 1:1
Scout
Not the photo , don’t hit’em with the photo Scout!
"So, no, John 1 does not make a clear statement about the Deity of Jesus. Doubting Thomas' made the only clear statement."
I think there's more than that, Scout- this is just for starters:
https://biblehub.com/john/14-8.htm
And let's not forget "Before Abraham was I am" they knew exactly what Jesus was claiming and that's why they picked up stones.
It's too bad that the religion called Christianity today is based on books that were not written by the actual Jesus. He should have written down his own words.
And, since Peter was an illiterate fishermen (according to the bible), he could not have written the books attributed to him.
HWA was not a scholar but a "self made man"..... "learning on the job"..... this is exemplified in all his writings and part of his core teachings.
Therefore his teaching on the relationship God - Jesus originates from his own developing relationship with his son(s).
Especially Garner Ted in whom he recognized superior "Logos" skills, who was definitely more radiant, more modern, etc etc in short, an improved version of himself..... yet created by him and subordinate to him.... a mere King of rugged Texas (the created world) rather than heaven.... Golden California the sest of God/HWA.
Nck
John 1:1
.....Theos was ho Logos. Both words for "God" are capitalized.
God must be confused because Christianity keeps reinventing itself.
God confused because of the evolution of human thought? That doesn't make any sense!
"There are two principal moments of error that render Arianism untenable. First, Arianism denies that the Holy Spirit is a person. Second, Arianism denies the Deity of Jesus Christ – a belief known as Subordinationism. Both moments of error have influenced Armstrongism."
Well, #1 is not an error. I guess a blind squirrel will find an acorn every now and then.
And, #2 is not what WCG taught. We have always taught that Jesus was God from the very beginning. God in the OT is the one we know as Jesus. No one knew of the Father until Jesus revealed Him.
If you're going to criticize, at least get your facts straight.
Anonymous 5:08 wrote, "If you're going to criticize, at least get your facts straight."
Speaking of that, apparently you did not read my essay. I did not claim that
WCG taught that Jesus was not God. Armstrongism decidedly did teach that. And I stated that. But WCG was influenced by the Subordinationist aspect of Arianism. I made much of this and you seem to have not encountered it.
Scout
Ronco 7:32
. Even though the Arian Jesus was a great angelic spirit being created by God. Christians generally believe that Yahweh of the Old Testament is Three-personed God of the New Testament.
First let me state that I believe in the Trinity and I believe that Jesus is one of the God Persons of the Triune God. So, I resonate with the scriptures you quote. But we must also look at those scriptures as Arians would see them. Arians believed that The Great God is so perfect and righteous that he would not engage with our planet and humanity. He would not interact with lower order beings. The Logos interacted for him at that level. (The idea of the Logos was generally understood at the time of Jesus through the writing of Philo of Alexandria. Only Philo asserted that the Logos was a great angel, similar to Arianist belief.)
So, Arians believed that the God of the Old Testament was the Logos. Hence, the Arian Jesus could be “before Abraham.” And the Arian Jesus went by the name Yahweh in the OT, the “I am.” This comports with John 8:58-59
Scout
Addendum
. For Arianists, these scriptures do not work. John’s actual declaration of the Godhood of Jesus is in Chapter 20, not in Chapter 1 of John, based on the clarity of the semantics.
I do not want to give the impression that I believe Arians at the time of the Council at Nicaea were a bunch of crackpots. They had a well-reasoned doctrine of God and many Christians at that time were Arianists. I am not an expert in Arianism. I am just citing my impressions from reading the writings of theologians.
Regarding the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople, I feel that their conclusions about the Trinity fit the data of scripture better than the Arianist view. (And the Arianist view is very similar to the Armstrongist view of Jesus. But not identical.) For instance, I believe the Arianist view is not able to account for the use of “O Theos” by Doubting Thomas in John 20.
Armstrongism asserts that Jesus is God but this is established using John 1: 1-2
The Armstrongist view is in:
Armstrong, Ted and Hill, David Jon. “Who – What – was Jesus before his Human Birth?”, The Good News, January 1953.
For a good summary of the issues, listen to this interview with David Bentley Hart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWkdxNKvgi8
Scout
Scout
I've challenged you before for misrepresenting Armstrong's official position on Christ being "very God", because you had no visible evidence from church sources to back up your claim. I see the same problem here.
You make bold statements, but again I see no proof, only inference.
" Jesus is subordinate (less than) God the Father in essence"?
"a secondary God"?
"2 separate Gods"?
Where are you getting this? I never believed it and the Church never taught it.
Your post is interesting in many ways, but we need more verification than the fact that Scout and Lonnie " says so"! ---Or that a rejection of the Trinity automatically validates these assumptions.
Show us the booklets, the lit, the quotes, so we can evaluate things accordingly.
Every chance I get. The propagandists for BI never take a break. Why should I?
Miller 6:20 wrote, “For him, there was ONE FAMILY - composed of a Father and a Son.”
I find HWA’s argument against the Trinity to lack substance. I would grant that maybe I need to read more about what he believed. He refers to God as a family and this does not give me heartburn. The Bible uses familial language in reference to God, the Son and the children. But the Bible also reveals that there is a perichoretic relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. I cannot determine if HWA intends to deny the perichoresis by positing a family of separate individuals or if that is just something he never thought about.
In truth, I cannot figure out what his objection to the Trinity actually is. He explains his views on the Trinity in MOA pages 51 through 59. On page 56, he writes, “The Trinity Doctrine completely does away with the gospel of Jesus Christ” but he never explains how. In fact, he refers to his mistaken idea in the next sentence about the gospel being about a world government. So how does the Trinity interfere with that notion?
There is that odd idea that three is a “closed” number and two is an “open” number. Therefore, two permits the God Family to be expanded and three closes it down. That is rank blarney that sounds like it originated with the superstition of numerology rather than the Bible.
HWA identifies in MOA the great mysteries he wants to address but introduces other mysteries concerning his own theology that he doesn’t explain and expects his readers to absorb without question. I find this to be odd now that he would put forth his ideas in this way.
Scout
Is that always a reasonable request, BP8? Going back to the literature to substantiate?
There was the written tradition in Armstrongism, ie booklets, and magazines, which were widely available to, and considered to be official by the general public. But there was also the oral tradition, which is what was preached behind the protection of closed doors, safely insulated from "the world", its second opinions and scrutiny. Surely, we all realize that we got the "amplified version" in the sermons and sermonettes! As a typical example, the child rearing booklet, GTA's thesis, sounds almost reasonable to an outsider who might read it. But, because that was greatly amplified in regular sermons, great numbers of us who were of age for the application of that booklet had holy hell beaten out of us multiple times each day. This was not isolated to my family! SEP gave us kids an opportunity to compare notes, in the privacy of our dorms and booths and to actually discuss how to deal with it to make it less bad. So it was pretty much universal. Some kids, my brother being one of them, actually ran away from home. Some of the guys, when they turned 18, if they knew they didn't have a shot at college, joined the military, knowing that as long as they lived in their WCG home, the beatings would continue. My last one was the day before I got on the plane to go to Ambassador College. But I digress.
The ways in which the church reacted to and dealt with the Civil Rights Movement provides another example of the disingenuousness of the Armstrong PR machine, and the oral traditions.
You have addressed your inquiry to Scout, and I don't mean to interrupt, but my impression from sermons and the Bible Classes at AC was that God's government was "government from the top down" with God the Father at the top, and Jesus subservient to that, but in perfect tune with the Father and His will. Yes, he was God, but was the submissive partner.
By the way, the "Good News" was for insiders exclusively, and sometimes delved into the oral components of Armstrongism. I do not know if the old issues of the GN are posted on the internet, but I believe that is where the answers or proofs might be. Since his family is curator to many of the Armstrong documents, perhaps Sam Kitchen could jump in and tell us if the Good News is part of the collection.
BB
Another thing I've noticed in my post Armstrong studies is that mainstream Christian sources notice well defined differences in Jesus' and the Disciples/Apostles' behavior during Jesus' physical life, (when he was still under the Sinai Covenant) and after His work on the cross paying humanity's sin debt and ushering in the New Covenant.
While I was an Armstrongite, It always appeared to me that the New Covenant was simply the Old Covenant, with a Savior/Messiah crashed in. Armstrongism taught transactional or conditional love as part of that equation, and completely devalued grace as it has traditionally been understood in Christian circles. People were literally believing that their car battery had gone dead because they snoozed through the alarm and missed their prayer and Bible Study that morning. Better watch out because God was to them a punishing God who would swoop down and punish over the smallest infractions, or hint of bad attitude. Or, worse, withhold protection. How can you develop a relationship with a being like that? I tried very hard with my parents, and it was just not possible.
BB
Most "Jews" today look more European than Semetic (Middle Eastern). The original Jews spread to Europe and interbred with Europeans. They cannot claim that Palestine is their homeland. They are stupid. One look in the mirror should settle the matter. Look at Netanyahu, for example.
Some people do not get sarcasm. You seem to be one of them. Yes, it's HUMAN thought. That's the point.
The following quotations are excerpted from the 1973 booklet "Is God a Trinity?"
There is only one God family, yet there are presently
two members, and in the future there will be many more.
Jesus was called “the firstborn of many brethren” (Rom.
8:29).
Look at yourself. Whether married or single, you are
part of a family. You have parents and maybe even chil-
dren or grandchildren of your own. Yet, you are still one
family...
God is a family. There presently are two members in
that God family, God the Father - the Head of the
family, the Lawgiver - and Jesus Christ the Son - the
Spokesman, the Creator. But the word Elohim is not just
dual. There is a dual number in Hebrew, but this would
have to be Elohaim. The God family, however, is destined
to be truly plural - to have many members. And this is
what the word Elohim describes and allows for.
The following excerpt was taken from Herbert Armstrong's 1977 Plaine Truth article "Is Jesus God?"
; 5:1
; 6-7
). The Father is
The Eternal Father is a Person,
and is God. Jesus Christ is a differ
ent Person and is God. They are two
separate and individual Persons
(Rev. 4:2
Supreme Head of the God Family -the Lawgiver. Christ is the Word -the divine Spokesman.
There is no Infinity that is greater than another infinity.
Perhaps so. But, actually, nowadays, the generally accepted belief in math seems to be that some infinities are greater than others. That might sound crazy, but it is what the experts generally claim. Google it. I think the guy's name is George Cantor, who came up with this.
BP8 8:42 wrote, “Where are you getting this? I never believed it and the Church never taught it.”
, was not, yet, the Son of God. But he was with God, and he also was God.”
HWA’s theology is, unfortunately, not detailed. So, you can’t really grapple with something that is not there. So, some of this must be naturally inference. HWA might have been Binitarian and he just never mentioned any kind of co-inherence between the Father and Son in anything he ever wrote. But I doubt he was Binitarian. I don’t think he ever made a distinction between God in his economy in contrast to God in his essence. We must use the data that we have. I believe he just did not think about those sorts of things.
Bi-theism: the following explanation is from page 42-43 of the MOA:
“These passages show that the Word, in the beginning — before ANYTHING had been created — was with God, and he, also, was God. Now how could that be? There might be a man named John. And John might be with the man named Smith, and John might also be Smith because John is the son of Smith, and Smith is the family name. Yet they are two separate persons. The only point of difference in that analogy is that the Word, at the time of John 1:1
This is about the simplest analogy you can refer to that indicates two separate beings. And from this we may deduce Bi-theism. HWA says there is “only one point of difference” and that is not relevant to the discussion of the state of being but has to do with chronology.
Did HWA know that he was teaching Bi-theism when he wrote this? I doubt it. Did you know when you read it you were being taught that God is Bi-theistic? I doubt it. Other than a simple statement such as this, did you ever hear HWA, or anyone in the WCG ministry, discuss the difference between Bi-theism and Binitarianism? I never did? But the lack of ever developing a mature theology is not a defense. We must take HWA at whatever word he has given us. The MOA is probably about the most mature document HWA ever wrote. And I have no qualms about deducing Bi-theism from what he wrote in its pages.
Scout
Herbie lied, people died.
The trinity states that 1 + 1 + 1 is equal to 3.
Scout you said:- "Jesus cannot be less than God the Father in existential essence. Jesus can certainly be less than God the Father in assigned role."
Than is essence is my understanding of what the COGs actually teach.
The question would be if an infinity exists in a closed system, is it really an infinity?
Well well anon 12:45:05 PM PDT.
‘Most Jews today look more European than Semitic (Middle Eastern)’.
Have you been to Israel lately? Perhaps 45% are Sephardi Mizrahi Middle Eastern looking today.
‘The original Jews spread to Europe and interbred with Europeans’. Original Jews, please elaborate. It was not just to Europe that the Israelites fled to, after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70-73 AD.
‘They cannot claim that Palestine is their homeland. They are stupid. One look in the mirror should settle the matter. Look at Netanyahu for example’.
Well who is ‘stupid’?
I look decidedly European. I am an Ashkenazi Jew with roots in the Czech Republic. My DNA does not lie, I am decidedly Semitic. I have family in Israel who speak Hebrew and look European. Netanyahu, like him or not was born and raised in ‘Palestine’. As are the majority of Israelites in the Land today. Me thinks they do have a very good claim to this small piece of reality. Historian Dr Henry Abramson goes into much detail about the exile of Israel in his series on YT. My suggestion is to take your medication before posting again.
I recall reading GTA's booklet on child rearing before I started attending services. I thought the book amounted to unleashing psychotic violence on children to make them "obey," The book instructs parents to physically punish their babies for crying even though this is natural for all babies. This is creating what psychologists call "obedience monsters." It's interesting how the first episode in Star Trek TNG where we are introduced to the Borg (S2, Ep 16), shows babies in cribs with implants already inserted into them. The writers of this TV series certainly knew their stuff about cults.
Anon, aka Scout, Saturday, March 22, 2025 at 6:01:08 PM PDT, wrote:
"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.



"God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord."
"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
"Anonymous 4:23
John 1 as you cite is commonly interpreted to identify Jesus as God. David Bentley Hart has done a translation of the New Testament and points out that this passage does not use "ho theos". It does not say that the Word was The God. It says the Word was god - little "g'. This means he belongs to the god category but is not The God in the fullest, transcendant sense. In the Trinitarian debates around the time of the Council of Nicaea, the first few verses of John 1 were used both for and against the idea that Jesus was The God.
Arius, in particular, believed that Jesus was the highest of God's created beings and was exalted to be referred to as god even though he was not Identified as The God. It is an interesting history. Hart has an appendix in his New Testament that deals with this as well as an annotation on John 1. It is worthwhile to read it.
So, no, John 1 does not make a clear statement about the Deity of Jesus. Doubting Thomas' made the only clear statement. And Thomas' statement has been challenged. My belief is that Jesus is God simply because I do not believe Jesus would permit Doubting Thomas to refer to him as "ho theos" if he were not The God. The confusion would be overwhelming for the church.
******
Scout, very interesting reply to Anon 4:23.
FWIIW, an angel made a reference to Mary regarding Jesus during a time when conception had not yet occurred with her:
Luke 1:31
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
Jesus would at some future time be called:
"...the Son of the Highest...the Son of God..."
Jesus was never going to be The God, or the Highest.
The Father, The God, has no beginning: Jesus had a beginning:
"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" Revelation 3:14
Jesus also had an ending, which only lasted for a few days, but there is One, and only One, who could say the following:
"For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deut 32:40
It happens to be the same Being that was the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob:
"The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus;..." John 3:13
1 Cor 1:9
Acts 8:37
Isn't it okay to refer to Jesus as the Son of God, who is not the Highest, or The God?
Time will tell...
John
Questeruk 5:13
I did not understand your final sentence.
But I do not think that the COGs would ever do an analysis that involves ontology (existential essence) in comparison to economy (role, vocation).
I believe that the Persons of the Trinity differ in economy but are co-equal in ontology. You don't find concepts and terminology like this in Armstrongist literature.
This is what I suggested to BP8 earlier. Armstrongist theology is so different from the norm that you are forced to make inferences. And the theology is relatively static. There is nobody to take on the issue of ontology versus economy. HWA has passed on and I doubt he would have entertained anything like that anyway.
What we might infer is that Armstrongists would follow the track of anthropomorphism and believe that the Father and Son differ in both essence and economy. Kind of like two kids of different ages in the same family. If you were to raise that question with an Armstrongist minister he would accuse you of being a raging maniac, or worse, a liberal.
Scout
Anonymous 2:40 wrote, "...the generally accepted belief in math seems to be that some infinities are greater than others."
Give a guy a break! All right. I have a degree in Math. But it dates from a long time ago when infinity was not so nuanced. When I compared the integers to the reals, I was comparing countable infinity to uncountable infinity. A mixed metaphor can be confusing. It is better if we use metaphysical infinity since we are talking about the absolute God. The point is, two God beings of the same category are absolute in the same way and are, therefore, co-equal. I thought infinity would be a little easier to understand than absoluteness. For one member of the Godhead to be smaller than the other, the smaller one must be finite. But being finite contradicts the nature of a God who can create at will, world without end.
Arianism posits just that. Jesus to them is a finite being so he can be smaller than God the Father in some respect. But in Arianism Jesus is not God. In Armstrongism, I have a feeling that they believe that both God the Father and God the Son are finite. That aside, in Armstrongism, one of the Binary must be finite. That knocks Armstrongism back into the Arian zone. (In the MOA, HWA refers to him as Dr. Arius and says that he was a Christian.)
Scout
The Armstrongist minister would not even know what those terms meant. He'd probably fan the air in front of his nose, and tell his questioner, "Please, Sir! Take a mint!"
Scout said "So, Arians believed that the God of the Old Testament was the Logos. Hence, the Arian Jesus could be “before Abraham.” And the Arian Jesus went by the name Yahweh in the OT, the “I am.” This comports with John 8:58-59
. Even though the Arian Jesus was a great angelic spirit being created by God."
and 44:6
, or the whole chapter for that matter? Then there's Revelation 1:8
, & 17
and 22:13
- both the Almighty and Jesus claim to be the Alpha and Omega...
If Arians believed Jesus is Yahweh and not the true Almighty, how do you get past Isaiah 43:10
In the interest of demonstrating that the doctrine of the Trinity was given a great deal of thought and consideration by the theologians of the ancient Church - that it was NOT borrowed from paganism. Consider the following:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2025/03/augustine-on-trinity.html
Then a trinity believer should not be accepting the title of a Pastor in a organised Church of God that is anti-trinitarian. That is the core of your deceit 'Scout' but I suppose being honest is not high on your agenda.
A shepherd that neglects his sheep to the extent you do, should not be surprised when the sheep wander over to see where their shepherd and co are up to. But it's all about fancy titles and intellectual arguments that lead to nowhere but I suppose the praise of others with more power than yourself is the end goal.
Glad to see the references, but also, there are downloadable pdf files of the Good News at hwalibrary.com. Honestly, I'd forgotten that the earlier issues did not have typical magazine style covers until the mid 1960s. There is a list of the articles and authors to the left of each issue to facillitate research.
BB
What WCG brought me was a lifelong interest in history. Shortly I will visit an entire city build to surpress Arianism and sponsor Catholicism. As the invading tribes were Arianist after the fall of the Western Roman Empire......It even has an Arianist Baptistry.
Love it. And continue your bickering.
nck
BykerBob1022
I'm not trying to be unreasonable, but if I am asked to believe someone, I expect them to be factual in their presentation. Like you, I was there, I know what was taught, and bi-thesim was not it!
Lonnie's documentation clears this up. These booklets prove Christ as a secondary God, a separate God, a "family of Gods" like the Mormans, was not taught, but the ONE GOD family, consisting of the Father and the Son as individual persons, members of that ONE family, was the emphasis. And the only subordination Christ was to the Father was not in essence, but as Scout acknowledges, economy and personal vocation.
Scout 422 speaks with great authority, while at the same time saying "I doubt", " I don't think", and "I believe" when making points. That called "opinion" my friend, which is alright as long as we know that's all it is. We can all appreciate that!
Ronco 9:12 wrote, "If Arians believed Jesus is Yahweh and not the true Almighty, how do you get past Isaiah 43:10
and 44:6
..."
refers to Jesus as the "Beginning of the Creation of God." This is not easily dismissed. The short answer is that there are scriptures used by Arians that form a counterpoint to the scriptures that you cite. This issue is non-trivial.
I cannot speak on behalf of Arianists as to how they would treat these scriptures. I have looked at some Arian (Unitarian) scriptures and they do have some talking points. Revelation 3:14
Scout
BP8 4:41 wrote, "Lonnie's documentation clears this up."
What specifically are you referring to in Lonnie's documentation? The passage I quoted from MOA in my comment at 4:42 is an unequivocal assertion of Bi-theism. If you take exception, you need to demonstrate why by logical argument. The mere assertion of a family relationship does not cancel Bi-theism.
Or let me simplify it for you. In order for you to elevate Armstrongist belief from explicit Bi-theism to Binitarianism you need to cite where HWA (or any other Armstrongist for that matter) explains that the Father and Son have a perichoretic relationship - that they are two but at the same time one in existential essence not just one in viewpoint.
You need to bring it.
Scout
Just to clarify, I didn't accuse you of having been unreasonable. I asked if going back to the literature was always a reasonable request. The rationale behind that question involved the oral traditions from the sermons which I cited, but we need to also comsider the fact that until the scuttled STP project, no effort was ever made to systematize or produce actual written in stone declarations of the church's beliefs.
I recall the many buzzwords and shibboleths of the old R/WCG from the supposedly golden era. Terms such as bitheism, binitarian, ontology, and perichoretic were not used by the ministry. I had never heard Arianism referenced or cited, but HWA's ignorance, eternalized in MOA (which came after I had left) certainly speaks volumes. My point is that as an anti-intellectual, HWA did not really parse, and go into the depths we are seeing here in this discussion. I do believe that he became less anti-intellectual as his friendship and collaborations with Dr. Robert Kuhn developed, but he made other errors, such as when he coined the phrase "empirical self" and described it as man's tendency to build an empire surrounding self.
My recollections of HWA's teachings were that he taught that God was a family, currently with father and son, son being subservient to father's will. Had God and Jesus been brothers, perhaps we would have seen them as being equal. There were no in depth discussions during my tenure (which ended in 1975) such as we are having here. That there was no such thing as the Holy Trinity was settled doctrine, and some very simplistic "proofs" were offered. As with all doctines, it was forbidden to question this, other than for the purpose of better complying. Picked and chosen elements of the Sinai Covenant were taught as being eternal truths, rolled into the New Covenant, and binding today, with the role of the Holy Spirit being to write the picked and chosen elements into the hearts of converted Christians.
"I believe" that when a person uses terms such as "I doubt", "I don't think", and "I believe", it is a mark of personal integrity. It is much preferable to the practice of authoritatian demagogues who claim to have all the answers, even when those answers are their own surmises and personal opinions.
BB
Math on the various views of the nature of God:
1=1
1+1=2 or 1/2+1/2=1
1/3+1/3+1/3=3/3=1
Scout 728
Did HWA know you ask? Did I know? No, because only Scout knows. It's' your opinion based on your interpretation!
If you want someone to do a lot of legwork, why don't you do a post laying bi-thesim and binitarian definitive points side by side where we can compare church literature with it. That would be fun.
There is a mental process I've been watching for years. Some of the participants in the Armstrong-based discussions on blogs and forums actually accept new knowledge which is presented. But, they end up using elements of it in ways that enhance their Armstrongism. We've even seen splinter members and independent COG members claim to be fans of Bart Ehrman because of one or two things they were able to lift from context that appear to validate HWA's opinions (in ACOG parlance, "restored truths").
I've long believed that people, based on their own personalities, will choose a belief system which blends with their core. They settle into it, and they'll hang on to it ferociously, regardless of all evidence which counters, contradicts, or debunks it.
Two things about the human condition: 1) There are very few genuine seekers of truth. 2) Original thought is a very rare commodity.
Anytime anyone is able to break free from cult enslavement, it is a miracle.
BB
It is arguably more Christian to give one can of beans to the food bank than to spend years trying to figure out theology. (Especially at AC).
In society there are critics whose job is to review books, movies, restaurants, guitars, wine and so on. They get paid well to give a personal opinion. One might read the same book or see the same movie and arrive at a different conclusion than the critic.
Scout believes he sees something in Armstrong literature (bi-thesim) that I don't see. He reasons between the lines, where I'm just reading what is written. Is he right? For him, yes, for me, no.
This is not a refusal to engage in new ideas or accept new knowledge when presented, nor an affirmation of what is taught by the church is correct. I'm not defending the church, but my perception of what is in print, and what I can read with my own eyes, and how it has been interpreted by those who penned the words.
Scout once said HWA did not believe Jesus was "very God" and I showed him in church literature that was false. He recanted. I have read many books written by those critical of church doctrine, whose aim was to discredit Armstrong beliefs, and not once have I ever seen the heresy of bi-thesim mentioned. I'm sure they were basing their criticism on church literature. Either the concept was not there, or like me, they didn't see it either!
BP8
I've already done some legwork. I provided an explicit statement from MOA that describes Bi-theism. I have explained to you what you have to do to demonstrate that HWA is not a Bi-theist and is instead a Binitarian. The ball is now in your court.
I think you are chagrinned that you sat in WCG services for years hearing Bi-theism preached and did not know it. Don't feel alone. I was there, too.
Scout
Scout to clarify my previous comment ( which had a typo in it), you had said:- "Jesus cannot be less than God the Father in existential essence. Jesus can certainly be less than God the Father in assigned role."
I was saying that your statement was also what HWA taught, that is, to quote BP8, that the only subordination of Christ to the Father was not in essence, but economy and personal vocation.
So good to see that you and HWA agree on this point.
Actually, there are forms of bitheism which present a dramatic dichotomy.. Zoroastrian bitheism involved a god which represented good, and one which represented evil. Modern gnosticism has its god and the demiurge. There are also those who believe that good and evil are alternating personalities of one god, flip sides of the same coin so to speak. I do not recall these ideas ever having even been mentioned in articles, booklets, or sermons, not even by those considered to be the church's great intellects.
We seem to have greater depth, vocabulary, and tools with which to discuss these concepts in the present. The fact that they were not named parts of the package in the past has often been part of the critique of Armstrongism, in short, its total lack of depth.
BB
Scout and BB
If the ball is in my court, I have no where to dribble. Our dispute boils down to the interpretation of the literature. I see it one way, Scout another.
Wikipedia defines Binitarianism as "a CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY of 2 persons in one substance/Divinity or God, understood as a form of monotheism, yet having a twoness in God which means one God family". The Armstrong churches of God are listed as groups that hold the binitarian view.
As I said before, as far as I know, no church opponent (other than Scout) has ever accused the church of teaching / preaching bi-thesim. I would also argue that bi-thesim is not even compatible with other doctrines of the church!
As we all know (and most reject), the church teaches that salvation for the Christian is pictured as being born again at the resurrection into the family of God, where we become God as God is God. All church literature makes this plain. It is clear from said literature that we DO NOT become separate, independent " Gods" as the Mormon's preach, but we become children of God, members of the ONE God family-kingdom!
Maybe Scout sees some overlap in bi-thesim with binitarianism and so makes that interpretation. I don't see it and church literature doesn't support it (in my humble opinion).
BP8 3:57
Let me clarify my viewpoint. First, I do not recall the situation where I claimed that HWA did not believe Jesus was very God. I think you may have confused that with some statement I made about Subordinationism. The Armstrongist doctrine of God is neither rich in concept nor in vocabulary so confusion can easily ensue. So, I don’t know what HWA actually believed and neither do you. But this is what I think HWA believed:
The Father is greater than the Son. I know that HWA believed that God was greater than Jesus in economy and I suspect he also meant greater in ontology. HWA did not think that way or use those words so we are left wondering. Since he made no distinction I believe that he meant that the Father was greater than Jesus in both economy and ontology. In other contexts, HWA wrote that the Father and Jesus were one and this might be used to claim that they were co-equal in ontology save for the fact that elsewhere HWA claims that Father and son were two separate beings - so they might very well differ in ontology.
I may have said something like HWA did not believe Jesus to be God-as-God-is-God. Perhaps he did and perhaps he didn’t. HWA has not given us enough data to tell. If I made such a statement I would recant of portraying it as certain. I would not recant of it being a valid observation that has some evidence behind it.
If you can find a statement from HWA or any of his minions that presents this issue in a clearer form, I would like to see it.
Scout
Questeruk 7:44
It is not clear to me that HWA believed that the Father and Son were co-equal in essence or ontology. I can find no such claim by HWA in the small amount or research I have done.
Scout
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