Saturday, May 1, 2021

Fake COG Prophet Upset Over Another COG False Prophet

People should not support leaders that claim to be faithful, 
yet have the fruits that they are of the synagogue of Satan 
(so says Bob Thiel - prophet and savior of Africa and 299 Caucasians)

It's a sunny day here in California and the Great Self-Appointed Prophet of Grover City and Dreamy Overseer of 3,000 Africans and a mere 299 Caucasian members worldwide, has his holistic buckwheat kernel knickers in a twist over Gerald Flurry.

Bob Thiel is mocking Gerald Flurry for his failed prophecies concerning Trump regaining power after Biden was elected President. Add to that mix the absurdities coming from Dave Pack over the imminent return of his creature called "christ" and Bob is in his element in comparing these two men as bumbling idiots compared the holy and righteous endtime leader to the Church of God that Bob Thiel dreams he is. No COG leader has ever been more perfect and accurate than Bob Thiel.

I have long expected that the mistakes of PCG’s Gerald Flurry and also RCG’s David Pack would become more obvious (David Pack did not make a wrong election prediction to the best of my knowledge, but made several last year that Jesus would return which never happened–and years ago he seemed to me to have blamed God for being wrong on one or more of his predictions). We have seen this over the past several months. As I have publicly written before, I do not believe that PCG’s Gerald Flurry and RCG’s David Pack are truly Christian–they claim to be in the Church of God, but I do not believe that they are. I believe that the following are applicable to them:

Bwana Bob then goes onto quote scripture to prove that they are wrong, but what he actually does is slap himself right across his self-righteous face with the same verses. 

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. (2 Peter 2:1-3) 
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie — indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. (Revelation 3:9)

Never have two verses described Bob Thiel more than these do. He self-appointed himself so he could rise up among the Living Chruch of God as the true end-time leader of the church. He has spent years preaching heresies and outright lies meant to deceive sincere people.

He then makes this priceless comment:

People should not support leaders that claim to be faithful, yet have the fruits that they are of the synagogue of Satan (cf. Deuteronomy 18:17-22; John 8:44).

For once I have to agree with the apostate Thiel. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE should be supporting this foolish man. Add to that he had to anoint one of his African leaders in order for the man to anoint him as a prophet and leader of the church. Talk about ass-backward!

Bob technically has no standing in the COG ordained stratosphere. He was never ordained by any minister over him who had been ordained through the succession from HWA's ordination process. If one wants to say Bob lacks apostolic succession, they would be absolutely correct.

Just weeks before he started his own splinter personality cult, he spent over a week haranguing Rod Meredith DAILY with calls trying to get Meredith to change his doctrines and church stances on prophecy. In a bitch slap heard across the COG landscape, Rod Meredith kicked him out of the Living Church of God.

...I have been trying to resolve many matters with those in Charlotte and telephoned Dr. Roderick C. Meredith every day this week. 
Instead of speaking with me, a few hours ago I received a factually incorrect letter from Dr. Roderick C. Meredith. Based upon its tone, numerous inaccurate statements, accusations, and his unwillingness to address the real issues that I wanted to bring up, this letter is 100% proof (to me at least) that my view that the Living Church of God lost the ‘Philadelphia mantle’ in 2011 or 2012. I am saddened by this development and had hoped to avoid having to make a variety of decisions. But, God’s will is to be done (Matthew 6:10; 1 John 2:17).

"God's will" was never part of the start up of the improperly named "continuing" Church of God.  That was just one more subtle deception used by apostate Thiel.

At that time even James Malm saw through Bob's lies:

It appears that Bob Thiel has received a letter from Rod Meredith disfellowshipping him, and Bob never a man to admit coming in second is saying that he left LCG months ago.

Bob just cannot stand playing second fiddle to anyone. Nothing irritates him more than someone more powerful than he is. With his African followers and leaders looking to him as the Great Bwana and savior of the truth, Bob is in his highest glory. He has always demanded respect and received nothing by derision from other COG members, so now he has reached the pinnacle of his greatness.

The problem with Thiel, in most people's eyes, is that his ministry is all about himself. Never have we seen such a converted and educated prophet in the church than we have in him. Even Jesus pales in comparison if he is ever mentioned.

Notice this justification on why he started his personality cult. It's all about him and NEVER about following Christ.  Everyplace Bob talks about himself, in the 3rd person, it will be highlighted in yellow. Everywhere he talks about Jesus and the gospel will be highlighted in green.

12/28/12 p.m. For the past year or so I have wondered if perhaps the Living Church of God had lost the Philadelphia mantle.  To be 100% certain, I have been trying to resolve many matters with those in Charlotte and telephoned Dr. Roderick C. Meredith every day this week.

Instead of speaking with me, a few hours ago I received a factually incorrect letter from Dr. Roderick C. Meredith.  Based upon its tone, numerous inaccurate statements, accusations, and his unwillingness to address the real issues that I wanted to bring up, this letter is 100% proof (to me at least) that my view that the Living Church of God lost the Philadelphia mantle in 2011 or 2012.   I am saddened by this development and had hoped to avoid having to make a variety decisions.  But, God’s will is to be done (Matthew 6:10; 1 John 2:17).

About an hour ago, I signed various notarized documents to declare the start of a new organization.  It is legally to be called the Continuing Church of God Overseer and successors, a corporation sole.  Next week, the corporate documents are to be filed–but legally it now exists as a real church.  The late Herbert W. Armstrong formed a corporate sole in the 1970s and this seemed to be the best available option for me in California.

We expect to best represent the true remnant of the Philadelphia era of the original Church of God that began on Pentecost in Acts 2 (c. 31 A.D.). Beliefs of the ContinuingChurch of God.

The following may help show how I could be possibly qualifiied to do this:

  • The Apostle Paul wrote, “Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy” (1 Corinthians 14:1).  This is something Bob Thiel has attempted to do, as well as pray about, for decades.  
  • In 1996/1997, the then local GCG minister figuratively twisted Bob Thiel's arm to get him to start the website that is now COGwriter.   In 1998, Dr. Roderick C. Meredith and others with LCG encouraged Bob Thiel to expand and continue COGwriter, etc.   It later became the most popular member website of any associated with the COGs and has long functioned as an evangelistic tool.  COGwriter, directly, as well as indirectly, has helped bring many to the COG in general and LCG specifically.   Since 1998, the website’s focus has been to support the Philadelphia remnant and to expound prophecy.  It has produced fruits (Matthew 7:15-16). 
  • On January 6, 2007, after hearing about a reference to a Catholic prophecy about a former Roman Catholic rising up and causing the Church of Rome problems at the end times, Dr. Meredith told Bob Thiel, “That is you.”  During this particular visit to Charlotte, Dr. Meredith discussed both the evangelical and other fruits of Bob Thiel’s writings.
  • In August 2008, Bob Thiel told Davy Crockett, that if LCG was not going to deal with certain matters that he felt needed to be corrected (and that Dr. Meredith had seemingly agreed to  correct), that part of its top leadership (likely Dr. Meredith) was about to be hit with something bad.
  • In September 2008, Dr. Meredith had his mini-stroke.  Davy Crockett seemed to feel that this could have fulfilled Bob Thiel’s warning.  
  • On October 3, 2008, Dr. Meredith (who was unaware of that August 2008 warning), told Bob Thiel, “God may consider you to be a prophet.”  This came from the Presiding Evangelist of the Living Church of God.
  • Later in October 2008, Bob Thiel tried to counsel with Dibar Apartian and Dr. Jeff Fall about this.  Dibar Apartian initially strongly denied Dr. Meredith said this (but of course, as he was not part of it; he did not hear the conversation).  A couple of days later, he calmed down, came up to Bob Thiel, and said that he was either “the one” or the “biggest threat to the church.” 
  • In January 2009, Dr. Meredith told Bob Thiel over the telephone that if he (Dr. Meredith) was raised to the office of apostle, he was considering ordaining Bob Thiel as a prophet.
  • On February 4, 2009, Dr. Meredith told Bob Thiel over the telephone, “You have an in-depth understanding {of prophetic matters}—you could be a prophet.”   
  • After Bob Thiel asked him for a reminder announcement related to a fast, Dr. Meredith sent out a Church Fast Reminder email to ministry, March 20, 2009, which stated: 

Also, we are told to pray for the Holy Spirit. And God shows us in His Word, “But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues” (1 Corinthians 12:7-10).

  • Shortly afterwards that fast, perhaps after gaining more wisdom and prophetic gifts, during the Spring of 2009, Bob Thiel acquired a difficult to attain book that he did not know existed previously (not available in regular bookstores or Amazon) on Byzantine (Greek Orthodox) Catholic prophecy.  While he had been aware that certain old Roman Catholic prophecies seemed to possibly point to him personally, one or more ancient Byzantine ones, combined with certain biblical ones, seemed to be too specific to ignore.  And they got him to look more into related biblical prophecies on the subject.
  • In late Spring/early Summer 2009, Dr. Meredith told Bob Thiel he was praying for the success of Bob Thiel’s prophetic book 2012 and the Rise of the Secret Sect.
  • In the Summer of 2009, Dibar Apartian told Bob Thiel, in quite a positive tone, that Dr. Meredith had been stating in meetings that Bob Thiel may be a prophet.
  • Because of Dibar Apartian's statements, later that Summer or perhaps early Fall, Bob Thiel asked Dr. Douglas Winnail, if he was part of top LCG level discussions stating that Bob Thiel may be a prophet.  He said yes.
  • Around this time Bob Thiel had an apparently prophetic dream perhaps reminiscent of Joseph's dreams (Genesis 37:5-11) and Isaiah's vision to be sent (Isaiah 6:1-8), that somewhat like Peter's vision (Acts 10:17) he did not immediately understand, but like Peter (Acts 11:4-17), it seemingly became clearer once circumstances in the time since presented themselves and began to confirm it.  
  • To reduce the possibility of misunderstanding the Catholic and Byzantine predictions, as well as biblical prophecies related to the King of the North and God's witnesses, Bob Thiel asked all the HQ evangelists as well as his then pastor (Dr. Fall) if they thought that it was possible that Satan or some of his demons could have seen any of Daniel’s visions or the revelation that the Apostle John observed.
  • Sometime after he got “possibly” or “perhaps” as an answer, in 2010 Bob Thiel mentioned to Dibar Apartian that there seemed to be certain Roman Catholic and Byzantine prophecies, viewed in the light of Bible prophecy, that pointed to himself personally.   Dibar Apartian then instructed Bob Thiel to speak to Dr. Meredith.  So, he contacted Monica Cormier who arranged for Dr. Meredith and Bob Thiel to later have a private lunch meeting at the Feast of Tabernacles in Panama City.
  • In the late Summer of 2010, Bob Thiel asked Dibar Apartian if he still thought Bob Thiel was “the greatest threat to the church or 'the one.' “  He said Bob Thiel was not the threat and said that he would try to talk to Dr. Meredith about Bob Thiel’s prophetic situation, but it is not clear how, or even if, he did before he died later that year.   But what was clear to Bob Thiel was that Dibar Apartian believed then that God had a top prophetic role for Bob Thiel.
  • In Panama City in October 2010, Dr. Meredith and Bob Thiel met.  In that meeting, Bob Thiel mentioned one or two of the non-biblical prophecies to Dr. Meredith that seemed to point to Bob Thiel—and Dr. Meredith advised caution (basically waiting for additional confirmation).
  • At the Feast of Tabernacles in Glenwood Springs in a private meeting related to literature corrections that Bob Thiel requested, Bob Thiel and Dr. Winnail also discussed the idea of Bob Thiel being a prophet and one of the two witnesses (Dr. Winnail mentioned he had felt that he once thought that he, Doug Winnail, would be one of the two witnesses).  Dr. Winnail stated that he wanted to see additional confirmation related to Bob Thiel and that this should be clearer over time.  Dr. Winnail also commented that he felt his evangelical fruits were comparable to the evangelical fruits of Bob Thiel.
  • In November and December 2011, Bob Thiel counseled with his pastor Dr. Fall and Gary Ehman about these matters.  Bob Thiel told both of them that he thought that he needed to have hands laid upon him again in order to validate the view that he might be some type of a prophet.  They both told him that, in their view related to being a prophet, baptism was scripturally sufficient.  While that sounded logical, the statement from the Apostle Paul to Timothy about getting hands laid upon him (1 Timothy 4:14) gave him personal pause.  And that caution led to him pray more about it.  Thus, instead of concluding that he had sufficient anointing, especially considering the relative enormity of some of the ramifications of this as a conclusion, he searched the scriptures and concluded that, perhaps like Gideon (Judges 6:36-40), that he would seek further outside confirmation, and preferably God would provide that from Charlotte.  
  • On the morning of December 15, 2011, upon arriving at the Charlotte HQ of LCG, Bob Thiel asked to meet with Gary Ehman as he wanted to get anointed for some non-debilitating matters as well as to ask him to pray that he be granted wisdom for his meetings with the HQ evangelists.  But he was not in.  So instead, Bob Thiel asked to meet with Gaylyn Bonjour (with whom he never had any discussions prior about him possibly being some type of prophet).  Bob Thiel asked Gaylyn Bonjour if he would do the anointing and pray that God would grant him wisdom for the meetings.  He agreed.  But while laying hands upon Bob Thiel, Gaylyn Bonjour also happened (it was not planned nor did Bob Thiel say anything to encourage this) to ask God to grant Bob Thiel a “double-portion” of His Holy Spirit and anointed him.  Bob Thiel then attended a meeting with the evangelists and he did not then have time to discuss what this might mean with Gaylyn Bonjour.
  • At another meeting with the evangelists on December 16, 2011, Richard Ames prayed, with “Amen” concurrence from Dr. Meredith and Dr. D. Winnail, that Bob Thiel would continue to do the work that God has had him do, etc.  He also specifically called Bob Thiel's writings/work “an additional witness.”  Hence, there was a concurrence with the evangelical and prophetic fruits of that work.  The Charlotte evangelists again promised to get to certain literature corrections that Bob Thiel had brought up repeatedly over the years.   
  • At this 12/16/11 meeting, other matters related to Bob Thiel and prophecy were discussed, including the fact that by then world events had already aligned with at least 20 predictions in Bob Thiel’s book 2012 and the Rise of the Secret Sect.   Additionally the fact that some of his speculative predictions about Karl Guttenberg and Julia Gillard that had come to pass since the October 2011 meeting with Dr. Winnail was also brought up.  Since Dr. Winnail asked the most questions related to the prophetic fruits, he and Bob Thiel also met privately about it.  Bob Thiel's private comment to Dr. Winnail was that perhaps the evangelists should consider if those accurate speculative predictions are just coincidental or possibly the fruits of a prophet.  Dr. Winnail seemed to discount that then, and later, despite the biblical admonition to not despise prophecies (1 Thessalonians 5:20). 
  • From sunset 12/16/11 to sunset 12/17/11, the able faithful in LCG fasted, etc.  A passage of scripture that Bob Thiel read and re-read then was 1 Timothy 4:14-16 which he felt was more personal than ever then.  
  • On Sunday 12/18/11 night at a family wedding reception, without discussing the matter, Bob Thiel stared at Gaylyn Bonjour for a few moments, without saying anything and then asked, “Do you have any idea of what you may have accidently done?”  Gaylyn Bonjour said, “Yes, I think so.”
  • The following Monday morning was Bob Thiel's first opportunity to speak with Gaylyn Bonjour privately for more details about the anointing.  Bob Thiel asked him if it was his practice to pray that God grant a double-portion of His Spirit to people that he anoints, he said, no he had never done that for an individual before.  Bob Thiel asked him if he had any idea of what he may have been inadvertently led by God to do, and he said yes.  Gaylyn Bonjour also said that the only “double-portion” he recalled from the Bible was when Elisha became the replacement prophet and ecclesiastical leader for Elijah (2 Kings 2:9)—Bob Thiel told him then that this was his recollection as well.  Notice it was Gaylyn Bonjour, and not Bob Thiel, who first stated this as a conclusion.
  • Later on 12/19/11, Bob Thiel felt compelled to try to meet with Dr. Meredith and tell him that it seemed his wife was to be hit hard with something and to discuss other matters.  Because of other meetings he and Bob Thiel both had that day, this type of meeting did not happen.  
  • A few weeks later (Dr. Meredith’s letter dated 1/12/12), Bob Thiel learned that Dr. Meredith's wife was stricken with stage four cancer.  This seemed to confirm his earlier view (cf. Jeremiah 32:6-8). 
  • In March 2012, it seemed time to mention the 12/15/11 anointing and what Bob Thiel had tried to tell him about his wife to Dr. Meredith and he was able to do so in telephone conversation.  Yet, first Bob Thiel called Gaylyn Bonjour to let him know that someone may end up talking with him about the anointing.  Gaylyn Bonjour was fine with that and also said that he felt that the “double-portion” was related to “the passing of the mantle.”  This gave Bob Thiel a lot of pause to consider since that time.
  • On March 23, 2012, Dr. Meredith called Bob Thiel and Bob Thiel mentioned the anointing, some of Gaylyn Bonjour’s comments, and the prediction related to Dr. Meredith's wife.  The biggest concern Dr. Meredith seemed to raise was that the anointing was from someone below evangelist or regional pastor level.  But biblically, as he knows, only a member of the eldership is required to anoint one as a prophet (cf. 1 Timothy 4:14) or apostle (cf. Acts 9:10-17). 
  • In April 2012, during normal personal Bible study, Bob Thiel was reminded about the time when Jehu dismissed an anointing to become king by one of God’s servants because he thought the man was some kind of a nut (2 Kings 9:11).  There were apparently higher ranking ecclesiastical authorities at that time that God did not as directly use.  Yet, that did not change the fact of the ordination, and Jehu became king (and no, this document is not trying to say that Gaylyn Bonjour is some kind of a nut, only that when he performed the anointing he was a duly ordained minister of the Living Church of God and once hands are laid upon someone, this cannot be undone)—hence Bob Thiel concluded that it would be wrong and quite presumptuous of him to overlook or somehow discount what was done.  He personally had been cautious about whether or not he was possibly some type of an evangelizing prophet and getting an unexpected anointing suggesting that role from someone who had no idea that Bob Thiel was praying about that, or possibly in that role, indicated that this could not be ignored.  This seemed to be God’s timing and answer.  Especially because Bob Thiel had prayed about this so much in November and December 2011.
  • On June 3, 2012, Bob Thiel sent Dr. Meredith a letter urging him to get involved on various literature and other matters that he and the other Charlotte evangelists had agreed to in the December 2011 meetings (as well as earlier).  Dr. Meredith had Dr. Winnail respond, which he did with a letter dated 6/28/12, but which contained various improper statements (including improperly condemning Bob Thiel for improper presumptuousness), and which did not resolve the matters--Dr. Winnail suggested various officially published errors were unimportant (cf. Revelation 3:14-19).  
  • On June 29, 2012, Bob Thiel conveyed to Gaylyn Bonjour, Dr. Winnail's written comment in that letter suggestion that the conclusion as to what happened when he was anointed by Gaylyn Bonjour on 12/15/12 was “presumptuous.”   Gaylyn Bonjour found it astounding that Dr. Winnail would have indicated that Bob Thiel may have been presumptuous about this.  Gaylyn Bonjour felt that Bob Thiel was exercising proper caution and that to ignore what happened would seem to be against the will, and possibly plan, of God.  Gaylyn Bonjour also stated to Bob Thiel that it is God, and not men, who “appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets“ (1 Corinthians 12:28).
  • On July 14, 2012, Bob Thiel watched Dr. Winnail's “falling away” sermon, saw that Protestant commentaries were often the basis for many statements made, etc. and it made him more strongly wonder if the mantle had been dropped and passed.  Watching that sermon quickly resulted in changes at the website and resulted in personal changes--including privately suspending my membership in LCG (he continued to cooperate with LCG and had hoped that they would properly address matters so that he could decide to reinstate his membership).
  • Later, on August 1, 2012, Bob Thiel read a December 1986 Good News article by Leroy Neff who wrote how to tell the differences between a true prophet and an imposter; and the next week, he found a Q&A titled “How else can we know if a person is a prophet of God?” covered in the September 1965 edition of the Plain Truth and an article on the laying on of hands in the April-May 1965 Good News.  It seems that according to them, Bob Thiel meets the true, not imposter, prophet criteria.  Including having the fruits of a prophet like Jesus discussed (Matthew 7:15-16) (more on this matter is in an article at titled How To Determine If Someone is a True Prophet of God).
  • On August 7, 2012, LCG spent money in a seeming attempt to try to prevent Bob Thiel from possibly taking certain website steps, while Bob Thiel continued to try to assist Charlotte in making various literature corrections.
  • On August 26, 2012, shortly after agreeing that a variety of errors that Bob Thiel brought up needed to be corrected, Dr. Winnail told Bob Thiel, “We all think that you might be a prophet.”  In order in order to determine who “We all” was, on September 7, 2012, Bob Thiel asked if this was a reference to all three of the LCG Charlotte-based evangelists and Dr. Winnail concurred.
  • Yet, on September 6, 2012, with possible disregard of Matthew 18:15-17 and matters of prophetic authority (1 Corinthians 12:28), Dr. Meredith publically criticized Bob Thiel without previously discussing the related matters with him; nor did Dr. Winnail take certain steps related to promises related to doctrinal matters (Revelation 3:14-19).
  • During the Feast of Tabernacles in October 2012, James Meredith made a public statement in a sermon that seemingly contradicted Dr. Winnail’s testimony on August 26 and September 7, 2012 regarding prophets.
  • On October 8, 2012, Bob Thiel briefly met with Richard Ames to try to figure out how to get various matters (Dr. Winnail’s “falling away sermon,” literature errors, and the final phase of the work) dealt with.  Bob Thiel followed up and over the next two or so months provided information to Charlotte as he promised Richard Ames.
  • On December 14, 2012, Bob Thiel sent the Charlotte-based evangelists an email, with an attached paper, on the Final Phase of the Work. (this was the last item to finish those that he promised Richard Ames on 10/08/12).  In the email, Bob Thiel asked if those in Charlotte would correct various errors and asked if they wanted to work closer together or become more distant.
  • On December 15, 2012, Bob Thiel saw a sermon from Dr. Winnail titled “Watch and Get Ready,“ in which Dr. Winnail, after referring to Protestant “commentaries“ declared that those who did not agree with his “falling away“ position were “blind to reality.“  This resulted in additional changes to some of the pages on, etc.
  • Throughout the next week or two, Bob Thiel put together a variety of items that he wanted to go over with Dr. Meredith concerning improper statements to the members, literature errors, broken promises, etc. to give Dr. Meredith a last opportunity to try to explain how LCG could possibly have not lost the Philadelphia mantle, but the real issues were not dealt with. 
  • By December 22, 2012, reported events in the news had aligned with at least 32 predictions in Bob Thiel's 2009 book titled 2012 and the Rise of the Secret Sect.  Many, many more, not in the book, but in various posts on the internet, have also been confirmed.  And while many (in the book or on the internet) would be considered common COG beliefs, many were more specific than the COG has tended to proclaim.
  • After receiving a letter emailed to him from Dr. Meredith (12/28/12) where he denied making statements that Bob Thiel had documented in notes over the past several years, Bob Thiel informed the regional LCG pastor for the Arroyo Grande, CA area that he would no longer host a videogroup on behalf of LCG, other than to have a final service for those who are part of LCG on 12/29/12, as it was now 100% clear to Bob Thiel that the Philadelphia mantle was not with LCG.

The fact is, that unlike the self-appointed leaders with COG-ties (like Ron Weinland, etc.), Bob Thiel was told by the Presiding Evangelist of the Living Church of God that God may consider him to be a prophet, to continue his evangelical efforts (and was also told to do that by others, including Richard Ames), that he (Dr. Meredith) possibly should have anointed Bob Thiel to the office of a prophet.  It seems that, perhaps because Dr. Meredith personally did not anoint Bob Thiel, God took steps to get that anointing done by a properly ordained member of the eldership.  

While God did have Ananias (described with the title of “disciple“ in Acts 9:10, probably a minister-level individual) lay hands upon Paul, no title was recorded as being given to Paul at that time (Acts 9:17).  Yet later, Paul wanted to make it clear that he was an apostle because Jesus chose him, not any human organization (Galatians 1:1). Nor did he feel “inferior“ to the more “eminent apostles“ (2 Corinthians 11:5). Does this not have some parallels to what happened to Bob Thiel? No man or group had gotten together to agree to anoint him with a “double-portion” of God’s Spirit in December 2011, but it did happen.

Dr. Winnail and others have stated in the past that Christians should “connect-the-dots” and that is something that seems to make sense here.  

As far as “prophetic fruits” go, Bob Thiel has asked all the Charlotte evangelists, “How many accurate speculations does it take before it counts?,” without getting an answer.  He has also asked, “If I have ever shown myself to be a false prophet, please explain how or why,“ also without getting an answer.

What humans conclude related to Bob Thiel's role does not, in one sense, matter.  It is God who appoints true church leaders (Ephesians 4:11) “for the edifying of the body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12).

What really does matter is God's will (John 7:17) and our submission to it (James 4:7).  And it has not totally unfolded how He will work all the details out—but God’s plan will be accomplished.

The Bible is clear, “God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets…” ( 1 Corinthians 12:28) “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers” (Ephesians 4:11).

To the pure, all things are pure (Titus 1:15).

If you read through the list of justifications that Bob Thiel uses to justify his status as prophet and leader of a splinter group you will have been exposed to the biggest mess of outlandish speculations and lies that any COG leader has ever dreamed up. Even Pack and Flurry don't make this many excuses about why they started new groups.

The Pastor's Dilemma: Going Along to Get Along

Like military service, the ministry is a profession where the expectation is to perpetuate the plan, teachings, and beliefs of whatever denomination, church, organization, group, or one-man show. This seems much easier when young and naïve as we trust the "knowing" of those older and dedicated to the cause. 

Over the years, and it usually is years, with more experience in either field, (all fields right?) one becomes less naïve, less trusting, much more discerning and well versed in the topic, and experienced in its applications for the good or bad. That's how one puts ideas and group expectations to the test. By their fruits, you shall know them and all that. 

If we are interested in our field, we study more about it life long and usually get exposed, finally, to other views that either seem more correct and makes more sense or solidify one's life long beliefs. Of course, beliefs are just that and should not be confused with the reality of how any topic actually might be.

I have sat in the offices chatting with any number of very well-trained theologians of most of the mainstream Christian faiths who started their journey as mere kids. We talked openly about all the realities associated with Biblical and Organizational beliefs. When asking direct questions because they actually studied the topic in seminary and had to deal with its implications, I often if not always heard, "Yes, that is correct and I understand that. We addressed that problem with scripture in seminary. But if I teach that, I'd lose my job".  

While this might seem hypocritical, it was just about as frequently followed by "The congregation is not going to understand that any good seminarian who studied in any of the credible institutions that exist are 50 years ahead of the times. What would never be accepted today will be much more accepted by the next generation.  They will go kicking and screaming into the knowledge they are supposed to grow in".  

This makes perfect sense in a world where the man or woman pastor is expected to know everything about the mind, plan, and expectations of God along with what the Bible has to say and to whom, which of course is always going to be an evolving understanding and not fixed. Is any understanding "fixed"?  If it is "fixed" then is it genuine understanding?  Not really but I can hear the scriptures now that are quoted to uphold sameness as if that was how it works in the slippery slope of beliefs. 

In science changing understanding of a topic is interpreted cynically by religionists as "made a mistake", when in fact, they just came to a better understanding as more information presented itself. The difference often is that by nature, they must change. New information in religion can get you dis-membered, marked, scorned, ignored, fired, or killed.  

I feel for many of the average pastor and friend who found themselves at a more advanced age in the WCG fiasco and who moved on to one split, splinter, or sliver or another in their pursuit of sameness. I personally do not doubt sincerity for the most part, though a couple well known upper crust WCG non-field ministry types did blatantly say to me that paycheck and security were the issues for them. I can't say that did not shock me a bit but I get it at their age. It's easy to feel that God is doing all this or that so go with it. 

It's also known as "Going along to get along". 

My nephews feel their own ministerial father died rather young more of a broken heart in the WCG debacle than the disease that took him unexpectedly. He was too invested not to follow at least some security late in life as he also had fallen for the WCG trick of having him sign off on his SS in his youth with the promise of "We will take care of you"  Actually they did as the reward for following those who demanded he flip beliefs from what he grew up with, to what WCG taught and back again to what he grew up with.  In my own case, I have used the analogy of coming to Hockey only to have the ice melted and hoops put up with the demand now I play basketball and not only that but coach it. Not going to happen and didn't. 

That to say that many men and women in ministry and in all denominational settings, as they grow older, face this very real and practical dilemma.  

It is inevitable with anyone who actually "grows in grace and especially knowledge" in their chosen field.  Personally, I find all churches, well except Dave, Gerald, Ron, and Bob, expect one to grow in grace.  Knowledge?  Not so much. Too dangerous to the group. 

The only choice is to see it through or pay the price and start over at a very difficult time in life to do. The price is high and one usually ends up going it alone with many regrets to be put in their place if one is to do it successfully and have a decent life for the rest of their lives. 

In WCG it never paid to speak up if you weren't the one in charge. And so it still is with her daughters.  

Friday, April 30, 2021

It Was Another Staggering Week For LCG Prospective Members

Do you realize that more people are exposed to the gospel message 
in just ONE episode of Veggie Tales than they hear listening to LCG ministers?

It has been another staggering week of amazing numbers of new prospects exposed to the Living Church of God. With the millions of dollars dumped into its outreach to preach the "gospel", the payoff does not seem too high.

Greensboro with a population of 301,094 people in 2021 provided LCG with 22 "guests" with 26 members signing on.

Knoxville, TN with a population of 756,000 people in 2021 provided LCG with 25 "guests" with only 8 members caring enough to sign on.

Greetings from Charlotte,
Mr. Richard Ames traveled to Greensboro, North Carolina, where he held a Tomorrow’s World Presentation for 22 guests (17 in person and 5 online) and 26 members. He is also scheduled to record a Tomorrow’s World telecast today (Thursday) on “The Greatest Friend of All,” advertising the What Is a True Christian? booklet. Follow-up TWPs were held in Missouri and in Atlanta. Dr. Winnail returned Tuesday evening after a trip to the Northeast United States where he spoke in Tannersville, Pennsylvania, and made a number of visits. Mr. Rod McNair conducted a TWP in Knoxville, Tennessee, with the help of Mr. James Meredith during the Q & A session. There were 25 in-person guests and eight online connections in addition to the members. So far this year we have had a cumulative total of 182 online guests and 144 in-person guests at our TWPs. These are not large numbers compared to past years, but a good start as we take steps to move forward coming out of a pandemic.—Gerald Weston

Doug Winnail: In LCG “mercy triumphs over judgment”


Today's Sabbath love bomb:

Importance of Mercy: One of the fundamental qualities that Christians need to develop to become like God and reign with Jesus Christ is mercy. Showing mercy involves patience, understanding, compassion, and unmerited pardon. The Scriptures reveal that God is full of mercy and compassion (Exodus 34:6–7) and that He requires us to develop these same qualities (Micah 6:8). Solomon states that those who show mercy, show honor to God (Proverbs 14:31). Jesus taught that the merciful will obtain mercy (Matthew 5:7) and that God values mercy over sacrifice (Matthew 9:13; Hosea 6:6). Jesus also taught that mercy is an important key for good human relationships, and that individuals who have received mercy, but do not show mercy to others, will face serious consequences (Matthew 18:21–35). In human relationships, we are sometimes quick to judge someone guilty by the law, yet, the Apostle James comments that “mercy triumphs over judgment” (James 2:13). As we strive to develop the mind of God, we must also come to understand the importance of showing mercy to everyone we deal with. In this way, we will be preparing to rule with Jesus Christ in His coming kingdom. Think about how you can show mercy to someone else today. 


Have a profitable Sabbath,

Douglas S. Winnail

Imagine that, a COG talking about mercy. Who would have ever guessed, considering the actions of so many of the leaders? Who would have ever guessed that the church is a leader in "patience, understanding, and compassion"? Notice there is no mention of where that mercy comes from and the act involved in it or the person. There is a token mention of his name and an admission that the church is quick to judge by the law. The law always trumps.

Thursday, April 29, 2021

Let's Blow It Up With This Question :)


Within the past week or so I had a once-in-a-lifetime talk on the phone with the only person I probably would ever ask my one lifelong WCG ministry question to that I would trust to give me as true an answer to as any human being could. I won't say who, but to me, a most, if not the most credible source I could personally ever hope to ask my one burning question to. I'll leave it at that.

But after an hour and a half or so on the phone, I finally realized that this was the one person I could ask and pretty much get the best answer possible. In other words, to me, the only credible source to ask. I had my own view based on observation through the years and as the drama and trauma that unfolded in the WCG until my sentence in it as a pastor was up.  This explanation resonated with me personally and I accept it. 

I know for others it would never be and that's ok too.  We all have a story and all of our experiences, at whatever level we had it, are valid in one's own personal interpretation of it all. 


"Was Herbert Armstrong sincere in his beliefs?"


"Yes, absolutely…"


"What went wrong?"


From one I would finally trust to know, unshaded and with no reason to paint it any other way. 

The gist.... (Not direct quotes)

Herbert Armstrong was very naïve as to the personalities and motives of the men he surrounded himself with. He trusted that every one that came to him was telling him the truth and many were not or shaded it for advantage. When HWA finally figured it out it was generally too late and reactions were not always helpful either. The damage done was done. He had the inability or did not choose to see or believe what others said they saw and tried to tell him. He was slow to believe bad things about people. He often seemed incredulous that someone was actually doing what he was told they were doing or had lied to him when he had to admit something to be so....etc

You get the point. I did not record it but this is the gist of the answer given to my one lifelong question about HWA. It has always been my own personal opinion from all I observed over nearly three decades. I never saw HWA as a religious con man. I did not see him as conniving to achieve outcomes one who was would want. I felt he did get caught up in his success, which may have surprised him as well but he, as well as Ted (who I feel had other issues, which I also understand and whom I am not speaking of here. ), had a gift of charisma in presence and speech. Like winning the Lottery, it can bit you in the ass if not well handled.

Those that surrounded him did strike me as most of the problem and drama in WCG. 

The Father to Son pass of religious empires never seems to go very well. Jerry Falwell Sr made the same mistake. Dave Pack won't have to worry about that. When he goes, it all goes.

In business, it is said "The First Generation founds it. The Second Generation maintains it. The Third Generation sells or destroys it.  Always made sense to me and I had a number of examples both in Religion and Business to back that up as I am sure we all do. Oral Roberts did it as did Jimmy Swaggart and Robert Schuller of Crystal Cathedral fame. 

So I accepted the answer. It was a much longer conversation but I felt I had gotten my question across and appreciated the honesty of the answer as well as a myriad of specific examples as to why this person, extremely trusted and close to HWA had a credible experience and view.

I realize this would not be everyone's view as it is an emotional topic based on one's own personal experiences and opinions real or imagined.

But now that the fuse on this topic is lit.....

What say you and why? 

As one said to me once, "I don't care WHAT you believe. But I want to know WHY  you believe it"

Commercial Break: All Things Considered, It would best for Dave Pack, Ron Weinland, Gerald Flurry and Lesser Wanna Do's to Also...


...but if you must

Tuesday, April 27, 2021

Why Is God's Schedule With The COG Constantly Being Disrupted?

A question has been submitted:

The various comments on Church of God Faithful Has End-times Timeline Laid Out For You reminded me of a question I have long wondered about, but kept forgetting to ask. 

At various times, God’s Schedule has gotten disrupted because “the Church wasn’t ready” or some similar excuse, I mean, reason.  Did the various leaders explain how that worked with the Parable of those virgins and the oil lamps?  The Bridegroom didn’t say, “Oh, excuse me, I didn’t realize some of you had forgotten your oil, I’ll just go back and come again tomorrow.”  No, he stuck to His schedule and slammed the door in some of their faces.  It seems to me that something similar would apply to all the times the Church wasn’t ready.

Monday, April 26, 2021

The Great Falling Away: The Semantics of Hype


This blog recently published a chart authored by someone in a splinter group and showing a sequence of events for the end of the age. An interesting point is that in a gloss, the author identifies the "great falling away" of 2 Thessalonians 2:3. And something needs to be said about the semantics of this. Nowhere in scripture does it speak of a "great falling away." This coined term cries out for capitalization, like The Great Tribulation, so I will write it as The Great Falling Away (GFA). In particular, the word “great” is absent in the Biblical text. Apparently, Paul really had in mind just your “everyday” falling away.

Scripture clearly speaks of a falling away in this passage from 2 Thessalonians. But almost everything about it is unclear. It is uncertain if it is “the” falling away or “a” falling away. It has been translated both ways and the underlying Greek word translated as “a” or “the” really means something like “which.” Further, whether the article is definite or indefinite, does the term refer to a single monolithic event or to all apostasy generically that precedes the revealing of the man of lawlessness? And nobody knows who the man of lawlessness is. A candidate is Seleucid tyrant Antiochus IV Epiphanes. And nobody knows what the reference to the Temple really intends. It could mean what it says: the Temple of God in Jerusalem. Or some say it could mean the church. So we have a collection of elements of uncertain meaning. And using a particular stew of these elements to concoct a monolithic end-time event is difficult to justify.

To choose to give this terminology a particular rather than generic meaning – from “a falling away” to “the GFA” - requires some sense of the propagandistic value of language. There is no special event that could be termed The GFA as if it were a milestone in the prophetic future as the chart shows. Paul believed that Christ was going to come almost momentarily. And apostasy was to happen first. So it is really unlikely that he saw this falling away far down the corridors of time occurring as a “great” event of the 21st Century.

But this collection of uncertain elements could be packaged as a 21st Century prophetic event with a little imagination and the right semantics. It is done like this. First, without warrant, put the definite article in front of the name of the event. This would be like calling it “the great falling away.” Then it helps to capitalize it. And it becomes The Great Falling Away. It acquires the cachet of a single, isolated event not a phenomenon stretching over time. Then the most important maneuver: Invoke the type-antitype model. So there may have been a former and typical fulfillment. Nobody has identified this. So which falling away is the typical falling away? 

People have been apostatizing from the beginning. This falling away in Thessalonians is just one instance in a class of such events spanning the entirety of church history. But in case someone turns up something that seems unequivocally like the forerunner event, you have that covered. The important matter is that there is yet coming an antitypical end-time event. Finally, use this artfully packaged term in writing and preaching until it takes on a life of its own and becomes unquestionable.

As a sidebar, there is another problem. It is called presumption. Splinterists are afflicted with a hubris that leads them to believe that the great currents of scripture are all about them - little apocalyptic Millerite organizations with very few members and always on the verge of schism in the 21st century. Hence, The GFA is enlisted on the chart to refer to the splintering of Armstrongism, an event that nobody is even aware of except insiders. In this spirit, each Sabbath a globally significant drama, putatively, is played out at services. And the lead player in the dramatis personae is the little denomination itself. It is a profound but dubitable ego trip for followers.

One can note similar semantic issues in regard to "The Great Tribulation." A term of a generic nature is hyped into a specific terminology. Not a good technique for literalists. David Bentley Hart did a NT translation with special attention to what the source Greek actually was saying. And he stated in responding to a review written by Garry Wills: ". . . I had not been aware before reading it (the review) that the term “great tribulation” had any special association with certain nineteenth-century schools of Protestant chiliasm . . ." In other words, at the level of the source Greek, "The Great Tribulation" is a common language reference in koiné to a “really bad time.” It seems to have been recruited as a special term to support special pleading by Dispensationalists in recent history.

And, finally, it is only fair to state that the Protestant movement and the Roman Catholic Church both have interpretations of the passage in 2 Thessalonians. Of particular interest is the Roman Catholic view. It is the most like the splinterist view as to time element. “The Catholic Church, Anglican Church, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches have interpreted this chapter as referring to a future falling-away, during the reign of the Antichrist at the end of time.” (Wikipedia, under the title “Great Apostasy”.)

This op-ed has been about an interpretation and a debate in the spirit of Midrash. But the debate is sometimes hindered by the use of tendentious, neologistic terminology. The fact is, splinterists who are preoccupied with prophecy have their own lexicon and it does not always reflect the unadorned language of the Bible. So, if you have formed the impression that this is a confused issue of high uncertainty and making use of The GFA in any prophetic countdown cannot be anything but dubious, you have understood the concern. An event of such uncertain character in nearly every dimension should not be scheduled for the end-time.

By Neo

Sunday, April 25, 2021

Recent Restored Church of God Former Member Speaks Out: “Mr. Pack where are your sheep? Why have they deserted you, Mr. Pack?”

April 9, 2021

Mr. Pack,


You have said that people are making excuses to leave RCG.  I think people are making excuses to stay!!  It’s the only way to explain why so many have stayed since you began making repeated failed prophecies beginning around 2012.  You say, “wait until the end of the series…wait until you hear the conclusion,” and other similar phrases.  The series never ends!  It is like the story of Scheherazade and the 1001 Arabian Nights. How many times have you said that it was the last sermon in the series?  At least her stories did come to an end, and her life was spared.  Her name, by the way, means “noble heritage.”


You have mentioned repeatedly that your last name, “Pack,” means “Passover.”  I looked it up some years back, and indeed, coming through the Anglo-French, which includes the Hebrew, it does mean Passover.  However, you claim that your name comes from your German heritage.  In the Anglo-Saxon, which includes the German through old English, it has a very different meaning.  I suspect that you are aware of that.  I think that if you want to be totally honest, you should announce to the Church what your German name really means. I have copied and pasted it below:


From Where Does The Surname Originate? meaning and history


This surname is derived from the name of an ancestor. 'the son of Pack.' Probably it is a harder form of Patch, which see. Pakes is the genitive form; compare Jones, Williams, Collins, &c. (v. Paxon for further evidence).


(Anglo-French) the French Paque = 1 One born during the Passover Festival or Eastertide [French pâque, Old French pasque, Latin pascha, Greek πάσχα; Hebrew pesakh, a passing-over] 2 a derivative from Teutonic: v. under (English) Paque (without a diminutive suff.) is now uncommon in France.


(English) 1 the A. - Sax. pers. name Pœc(c)- [either from an Old Teutonic word seen in Old Norse pakki (m.) = Dutch pak Ger. pack, a pack; or Old English pǽca, deceiver: cp. the place - name Packington] 2 metonymic for Packman, q.v.

Pack Translations

1.    Pack, der ~ (BrutZeugGesindelSippschaftKanaillePlebsPöbelGelichterLumpengesindel)

                                  brooding, the ~ Noun

                                  brood, the ~ Noun

                                  sitting, the ~ Noun

2.    Pack, das ~ (LumpengesindelBrutPöbelGesindelSippschaftKanaille)

                                  scum, the ~ Noun

                                  riffraff, the ~ Noun

                                  ragtag, the ~ Noun

                                  rabble, the ~ Noun



Pack  noun

1.           abwertend: heruntergekommene, (teils kriminelle) Menschen; Gesindel  Pack → rabble;

Pack  noun

1.           An obnoxious, or mean and offensive person     vermin; → GesindelPack;



My family goes back to Kings of England, too, by the way.  And from there it follows that my family also goes back to King David.  I imagine this applies to a great many people, not just you and me, and of course HWA.


Surely if Flurry or someone was giving this long series of failed prophecies, you would lampoon him to no end. Speaking of Flurry, it is hard to tell where he leaves off and you pick up, regarding taking titles.  I suspect that if you and Flurry were in a room together, there would be little room for anyone else. 


I noticed that there have been a number of sermons about ministers in the past few months.  The job of ministers, as described in the sermons, is not reflected in the ministers of RCG.  Most of the ministers I have dealt with are either bullies or just plain clueless.  


First, there was Turck. He was a power-hungry tyrant with a bad case of Little Man Syndrome.  How many hours did I listen to him screaming at me over the telephone?  More than I care to think about.  Sometimes I do believe he was literally “hopping mad.”  He called me so many mean and vicious names, it makes me blush to think of it.  He did me a favour, though, when he said that “all of HQ” thought I was a joke.  Even that there was a saying, “that God corrects the Church through” me, which he implied that you had said.  I thought how sad that HQ didn’t have better things to do than to talk about me! He told me that he hated when an email from me or my family came across his desk, that he hated having to deal with me…he stopped short of saying that he hated me, but it was no great leap to figure out that he did!  I do not know who finally got rid of him, but I always suspected that perhaps Mr. Wachuku might have mentioned something to you, after being bullied by Turck.  As I said to you at the time of Turck’s dismissal from RCG, who could bring charges against Turck when you claimed he was your best friend.  Count Turck among the flatterers.


Then I had to deal with other men that I did not know.  They were tutored by Turck, and felt it appropriate to treat me as badly as he did…I know you had Jeff ask me for the names of “the men” that I had mentioned in my email to you.  I named four of them, but did not name the other two, as they were too highly placed at HQ.   The four that I did name were later removed from RCG.


I will mention one of them now.  Brad Schleifer.  Perhaps your biggest flatterer.  Flatterers only flatter those from whom they can get something in return.  Brad was a pompous ass back when I first met him.  I always think of him as a snake-oil salesman…oozing as he walks.  How does someone as short as Brad look down his nose at others?  Glib and greasy, that’s Brad.  He loves to point out that he was an atheist. I believe he still is.  He is SO like his mother and step-father…too good for the commoners, loving to suck up to the people they can use, or who can give something to them.  Take away Brad’s titles, his impressive salary (and Ginger’s), and house…see how much loyalty is left then.  Brad’s initials say it all… B.S.  or to use all three initials and throw in a couple of vowels, as in the Hebrew… BoGuS.


James Rodrigues.  I met him.  He was friendly for all of two seconds.  Then his face and voice changed, what I call putting on the minister act…he told me to get out of Florida and go back to Maine.  I did so.   


Bob Knightly…your man from Massachusetts.  He has called and asked my opinion so many times, I stopped answering the phone.  He can’t answer questions about anything relating to anything!!  And because he can’t come up with an answer, he speaks louder and louder, until he is yelling.  I finally contacted HQ about him, as you know.  I never heard back from HQ, but Bob did…and gossiped about me to others, who told me about it. The last time we spoke on the phone, he asked what I thought about your “new revelation,” that WOMEN could receive the SAME REWARD, as WE, the ELITE, the MINISTRY.  I didn’t tell him that that was not new revelation…I was taught that 40+ years ago in WCG, and further that some women would receive a higher reward than men. The one time I allowed him into my house, the first thing he asked was, “Ya know what they call people from Massachusetts don’t cha?”  Put him on a Zoom call with you and ask him that same question.  I would love to see his face and hear his answer to you!  He threatened to visit a number of times, but then, thankfully, came up with several excuses not to. I blocked his number so that he cannot call me ever again.  If he showed up at my house, I would not let him in.


I have heard things about other ministers, and I believe those things.  Those are not my stories to tell. 


Ministers’ wives are as bad, and in some cases, worse than their husbands.  A woman does not have to worry about “the men” looking at her breasts or legs…their wives are always checking them out.  Diana Toro, who was very nice, until she became a minister’s wife, told me that I was not to wear sandals.  It was not at services, and I didn’t pay much attention to her.  Leanne Kaidannek and Pat Bishop were quite reasonable about certain things regarding women…but I don’t know many, if any, others like them…and of course, they are gone. Pat Knightly and her husband couldn’t take their eyes off a woman who had two discreet tattoos.  They met with her, before allowing her to come to services.  They were not interested in anything the woman had to say, they just kept talking about her tattoos.  Bob would call her and ask her what she thought of your prophecy series, and if she said she liked it, then Bob liked it too.  If she said she didn’t like it, then Bob would agree with that.

(By the way, there were people in WCG with tattoos, and they were never instructed to cover them up.  Also, there were people who wore rings on fingers other than the ring finger, and even one had rings on her toes!! And men were not restricted to white shirts!!)   Ask Pam De John for her honest opinion regarding women in the hot, humid south being required to wear pantyhose.                


I came to the HQ picnic/auction one year.  It was held the day your first wife had died.  Most people were shocked to see you and your daughter and your son there.  I remember seeing you and the practical nurse…and I told my family that you were going to marry the LPN.  A few months later you said you were dating an unnamed woman, and then you married her before a year was up (divorced a couple of times, to boot.)  Big surprise.  (Yet others, such as Mr. Lovell and Mrs. Denee were told they could not marry after they each were widowed.)


At the auction, I was a bit shocked to see the competitiveness.  I did bid on an afghan that no one wanted. I bid on a piece of jewelry that I knew someone else had been outbid on and gave it to her as a gift.  The last item I bid on was another afghan.  I wanted to give it as a gift.  You jumped in later in the bidding, but I continued to bid.  You were at the table next to me.  You said, loudly enough for me to hear, “these people like to bid against Mr. Pack.  They want to see how high Mr. Pack will bid.”  I stopped bidding, and you got your afghan.  The whole auction disgusted me.  I was not the only one who was shocked.


In the early years of RCG, you said you would hold fast to the doctrines that we knew in WCG.  You said that no one can come along and change the doctrines of an apostle.  You stayed with that for quite a long time.  Then, came a line or two that caused me to cringe…along the lines of “Mr. Armstrong was right as far as he knew…”  or “God couldn’t show Mr. Armstrong this, for __________reason.”  Then you would make changes and say there hadn’t been any changes.  It reminded me so much of WCG when they were throwing doctrines out by the bucket-load.  Recently you said that Mr. Armstrong “literally only got one thing wrong…the 1290.”


You started saying, “if you don’t believe _________then you don’t have the holy spirit.”  Or, “I’m teaching this by the authority of God.  If you don’t believe it, you are not converted.”   I was happy that you finally stopped saying it, and wondered who had told you to do so.


For nearly a decade (?) you have been saying things like, “this is the truth. You can’t argue with it.”  “If it’s not true, then Scripture is broken, and you might as well throw the Bible away.  You can’t make it say anything else.”  Then the next week, you will say “we used to believe _______. But God has shown me that is not right.”  So, does that mean scripture is broken, or that you are using private interpretation?  Are you adding and subtracting from the words in this book?  You recently said that you do not use the Bible, as it slows you down, and that you are like a conduit through which God streams.  Considering how many scores of false predictions (dare I say false prophecies?) that you have made since about 2012, perhaps you should use a Bible and slow down…and even ask which god it is that is using you.  (I would love to know who told you that your new teaching on the NTBMO was wrong, and wondered how he/she brought about getting you to change it back.)


Other tell-tale statements that I have learned from WCG, GCG, and LCG…and now RCG.  “Everything is going well at HQ.”  “No one is leaving.  As a matter of fact, we have record numbers of new people”  “Income is way up…much higher than last year.”   I remember in the first or second year, hearing some of those lines…only to learn that the whole HQ staff had been replaced, and I saw the letter they wrote to you.  Other similar incidents come to mind…I’m sure you remember them better than I.  You have been saying throughout this series that no one is leaving.  Every now and then, you will say one or two people have left.  Recently you implied that some people were leaving and that they have lost their salvation.  Only the people in RCG have salvation, and that is because they have come to a certain point in time.  I didn’t know that was how salvation worked.  (You have said that is how things work in PCG a number of times.)  One of the biggest false statements made by various COGs, including RCG: “All of the ministers agree.  Not one minister disagrees.” I actually heard a leaked tape, back in 1998 or 1999, when GCG was slinging so much mud around.  On it, all the board members were fighting and disagreeing all over the place. Recognizable names…disgraceful.  Sure enough, the next sermon had Meredith saying how they had had a meeting and all the ministers agreed, and how wonderful everything was going.  How many times have you said, “all the ministers agree with me,” and then we find out (or maybe we don’t find out) that one or more ministers have left?


You have said that it was you who discovered that God was in the OT.  Funny, but over 40 years ago, I asked a minister how to tell when it was God or Christ being spoken of in the OT.  He answered my question rather easily.


After the Feast of Tabernacles, I think in 2018, you started your sermon by commenting on how someone you had spoken with at the feast had said that people were told not to approach you.  You seemed so surprised!!  I rewound it and watched it five times!!  There were sermons, emails, and announcement bulletins, addressing this!  Not to mention that every Feast site in North America had daily announcements regarding this.  “Mr. Pack is an apostle.  You do not approach him.  There will be a receiving line for any new people to meet him. You will say hello and move on. If you have met Mr. Pack previously, you will not be in the receiving line.  He is important and has better things to do.”  I had personally been told that I am never to speak to you, never to email or telephone you, never to contact you, or be in the near proximity of you and your wife, because I was lower than dirt and not fit to be near you.  And, why, by the way, do you need to have “security men” form a line separating the Feast-goers from you?  Are you thinking you will be attacked and “the men” will protect you?  


I think that is the same Feast at which you held up a paper and showed its edge to the attendees, saying, “ I was this close to death.”  After all the time you had been ill with heart problems but were saying there was no danger.  Which statement is true?


Pets.  I believe that HWA covered the topic of pets.  Pets would not be resurrected.  You said they will be.


Speaking of pets, you have said we are not to have pets.  Why do people at HQ have pets?  And why, oh, why, do you have HORSES???!!!  For the privileged few?  


You say you may have to re-write the literature, as what is currently there is all wrong.  A look at the public website shows teachings from HWA…which you have not taught for a decade.  I wonder what people who are lured in by the public website think when they learn that the old ways are no longer taught.  Aren’t you supposed to teach the gospel to the world?  Why one gospel to the world and another gospel to the church?  Doesn’t that by definition mean that one or the other is “another gospel?”  Not to mention "another God" and "another Jesus."


I did not attend the Feast in 2020.  I had asked repeatedly if there would be masks and social distancing…after a long time, I was told there would not be any precautions against Covid at the Feast.  I opted to stay home.  You said that if you had faith, you would not get Covid.  You made fun of the other church groups who wore masks and did not sing during services.  You ended up having Covid for seven weeks, which was not announced until you had recovered.  Why the secrecy?  Did you not have faith?  I had heard, very shortly after the Feast that all of HQ had come down with it.  Evidently, it was a super-spreader.  Every year people are told to stay in their hotel room if they have a cold or other illness…every year those same people think it means everyone else…which means every year one or two people spread their coughs and colds, and a lot of people end up being sick.  Did you think that Covid would be different?  God expects people to use their common sense.  That would include using precautions during a pandemic.  (I forgot, it was prophesied for you to not speak until God gave you more new knowledge.)


Speaking of secrecy…you have been saying that you can’t make certain announcements because our enemies will learn of them.  And you talk of spiritual suicide.  These are statements that I would associate with “cults.”  I watched documentaries on Jonestown and Waco over the past year.  I do not think you are there… yet.  I know there have been literal suicides for as long as I can remember.  You have had people in your areas commit suicide and there were three suicides in Maine, as well as a murder-suicide, in the days of WCG.  I think you would not want to be pushing talk of suicide too much…spiritual or physical.


I want to clear up the origin of a word that you sometimes try to make into a different word.  Fecund.  It means “fertile.”  No matter how fast you say it and repeat it over and over, you will not make it into the other word you reference, which is not a word, but an acronym.  The acronym came about from Merry Olde England when the bobbies would beat the bushes looking for fornicators.  They would write on the summons, “For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge.”  That’s where “that” word came from and you will no longer have to try to make “fecund” sound like it in any other sermon!


Speaking in the third person… ridiculous.  How would you like it if I peppered this letter with, “You are probably thinking, ‘Well, Mrs.________, that is the most interesting thing I have ever heard!’ ”

Brad was Turck's right-hand man before he was your right-hand man.  I guess that makes Brad secondhand.  He was hand-in-glove with Turck when they put me out of the church, on trumped-up charges.  And it was Brad who said to me, "we wanted to see if you would leave the church."  What kind of a minister does that?  It was Brad who also put his hands on me and called me by my first name, which I had never asked him to do.


You say that we must address ministers and wives as "Mr. and Mrs" out of respect for their office.  I believe that is a power play...we call them Mr. and Mrs., they call us by our familiar names to show they have authority over us.  You at least asked me if you could call me by my first name, and I did say you could.  That does not apply to any other minister that is in RCG today. I am not a “Ms.” but a “Mrs.” by the way.


You have said that you have personally ministered to more people than anyone else.  If you are such a wonderful minister, where are all the people that you have ministered to?  As far away from you as they can get?  Ask yourself, “Mr. Pack where are your sheep?  Why have they deserted you, Mr. Pack?”


You rant against so many people that you once raved about.  Don Tiger, Charles Bishop, Brenda and Darrell Gaug, Steve and Joan Thompson, Tom and Karen Munson, Bill Ambrose, Tim “Griz” Mobley, Bill Behrer, Jeff and Arleen Ambrose, Dale Schurter, Ken Manges, et al.  So many others!  I also remember a time that a woman’s cellphone made a vibrating sound during one of your sermons.  You stopped the sermon and demanded to know whose cellphone was making a noise.  Then you told “the men” to make sure she was put out of the church for a couple of weeks.  Then you went on an extended rant about it and did your best to humiliate that poor woman.  I always wondered if she came back.  Every year at the Feast, announcements are made about cellphones, and every year, someone is sure to have his/her cellphone on, and one of “the men” will simply ask that person to shut it off.  I have not been present at a service again, where a cellphone went off while you were speaking. Another rant that had to be endured by members and waitstaff at a Feast luncheon, was when we were served chicken-fried steak.  You carried on so, it was hard to believe.  I felt bad for the waiters who were serving it, which was simply delicious, and probably one of the better meals I have had at some Feast lunches.  Why say such hateful things regarding a delicious meal, which had had a blessing asked over it, by the way.  Why try to humiliate the servers?  Inexcusable, in my opinion.


Like ministers in other COG groups, you will stand up and tell stories of how you were abused by other ministers and administrators, and then you do the same thing to others!


You said in the early days that if you went off into strange doctrine, to leave the church and not listen to you. And to remember that you said it, because if you went off into strange ideas, you would not tell us to leave.  Do you remember saying such things?  I do.


You say “Christ is coming first, no God is coming first, no Christ is coming first, no God is coming first.” Which is it?   “Christ is coming during the fast of Esther…the Passover, Xmas, new year’s”…and just about every other day you can think of.  Which is it?  You used to say that no one can know the day nor hour, except God…as says the Bible.  Now you say it, and change your mind to you can know…you can’t know, you can know.  Which is it??  Recently you said you know exactly when it will happen, but you have said that before! And you said the words “time, times, and half a time,” always refer to a day.  I looked it up, as I tend to do, and it can also mean “year” and “season.”  If someone speaks a prophecy in the name of the LORD and it comes not to pass, it was not from the LORD and you shall not fear that man. ("Medina," by the way is Arabic for "the city." and can be extended to mean "the city of the Prophet Mohammed," not "the city of the Prophet," as you have said.)


You have said to sell everything you own and give the money to the church.  I was told to sell my house, that I didn’t need a house.  I did sell it, I did give you some money.  Then I had to buy a run-down old house so I had a place to live!  The minister who told me to sell the house left the church when he was told to sell his house!  


Why do the ministers not sell their houses?  Do the HQ ministers and staff live in those houses for free?  Did you give all of your money to the church when you sold your house?  


I do not see the doctrine of “common” in the Bible as it is taught in RCG.  We are supposed to sell everything and give you the money.   The Bible speaks of a time when they sold all and went from house to house, sharing everything among themselves, as they had need.  After I sold my house and was in need, I was told that the church isn’t there to give physical help, only spiritual help.  Well, I haven’t had any help, physical or spiritual. 


Your sermons could be cut way down to the acceptable one and a half hours, if you cut out all the rhetoric, foolish questions, hyperbole, and loooong explanations as to why you can’t explain your latest revelation.  You have spun such a big ball of yarn that is very twisted and full of knots…no one could ever make use of it.


I’ve mentioned flatterers earlier in this letter.  If you really want to know how to tell who the flatterers are in the ministry and at HQ, listen to them speak.  If they are agreeing with you, 100% of the time, as you say they are, then they are flatterers.  If their sermons are glib and greasy, they are flatterers, and they, themselves, do not believe what they are saying.  If their voices sound stressed and it is hard to believe what they are saying, especially when they are asked to defend you, they are flatterers who do not want to lose their big homes and salaries. Listen to the stress in Andrew Holcombe’s voice.  It was evident in Jeff’s voice for years…I’m glad he escaped, but even he stayed long enough to collect a good amount of filthy lucre.  I was really surprised when Greg Kaidannek left and sent a letter with the reasons why.  I knew he didn’t believe what he had been preaching, and I thought he would stay.  I was wrong on that one.  Which men imitate you, in speech, in hand movements, in the content of speech (such as the use of the third person when speaking of themselves)?  Who copies your style and phrasing and use of words (such as “the most fascinating,” the most interesting,”  “I’m going to blow your mind,” etc.)?  These are the flatterers that you wanted to know about.  


I am neither a yes-man nor a flatterer. I am saying honest things to you that few others would bother to say.


You used to say you were little in your own eyes.  You used to say, “I hope you think I’m not bragging,”  as you bragged about one thing or another. I think you’ve bought into your own hype. As you love to say, “anoint your eyes.”  


God is not the author of confusion and there is simplicity in Christ.  Your sermons are full of confusion and not one whit of simplicity.  You are right about one thing, though.  God wants to see who stays and who leaves, but in the exact opposite way that you portend.


As you used to say, quoting another ‘apostle,’ “Who moved?”


I hope you have some appreciation for my “little letter.”  It was meant to be read in a pleasant conversational tone.  There is no anger, bitterness, acrimony, hatred, or any other negative feeling in it.  If you read negative feelings into it, they are your feelings, not mine.  


If I am wrong in these things that I have brought to your attention, may God have mercy on me and forgive me.  If I am right, may God have mercy on you and forgive you.




                                                                                                Former RCG Member