The original article this was based on was written in 1956 and republished year after year, well into the early 1970s. Each time, the prophecies grew more elaborate.
Then, lo and behold, 1975 came and went, and Herbert backpedaled so fast even GTA couldn’t keep up.
Who could forget that in 1971, construction began on Herbert’s $11 million monument to himself, even as members were still told that 1975 would be the final year before everything hit the fan?
Shortly after this, the Worldwide Church of God, Herbert, and others faced lawsuits over financial mismanagement. Around the same time, the Jonestown tragedy unfolded, with 918 people taking their own lives or being killed by their cult leaders.
Armstrongites took these events as clear signs that the end was near and Satan was furious.
Meanwhile, during this same period, the Jehovah’s Witnesses were also unraveling after proclaiming 1975 as the end times. Given that Herbert Armstrong borrowed heavily from the JWs, it’s no surprise they faced nearly identical problems.
Check out this video about the Jehovah’s Witnesses and 1975. Just swap WCG for JW, and it’s practically the same story.
Hat-tip to a reader here for this:
77 comments:
Our folly as human beings is on display here. It’s played out in the political sphere also. We seek messiahs with a ‘message’. Always looking, always searching for truth. And it continues to this day. And will do so, on into the future. In our search for El Dorado many will be hurt and scarred. But search we do. We are mortal beings and seek an escape from the present and all its complicities and at times horrors. This has gone on for millennia. There is nothing new under the sun here as the ‘preacher’ in Ecclesiastes comments.
His conclusions are direct and too the point as we read. How tragic our ‘condition’ is. And how tragic for the families that have been torn apart by religious zealotry. A pox on these b*st*rds responsible. My hope is for those who were damaged by all this, and there are many, have now found liberty and freedom with healing.
Change the name of the organization to expand and expose the guilty, and the story and effects are virtually the same! Actually, I did not realize that the JWs, a much larger organization, had suffered the same things we had with 1975 until I began my further education via the internet as the new millennium began. I knew that JWs had taught that "this world's system" would soon come to an end, but knew not that they had reached the same mathematic conclusions regarding the date as had our own revenue-generating "scholars".
The funny thing is that so many of us during this era leading up to 1975 had considered the JWs to be kooks and misfits, but we were not? In terms of lasting effects, I realized by the 1980s that I needed therapy to get past them, fought the distrust which had been instilled in us regarding professional help, and obtained it. Had I continued without that, I'm convinced that my life would have been permanently ruined.
BB
It's worthwhile looking this up on Youtube.com and reading the 180 plus comments so far. One example is "I know at least 3 couples from that time. They decided not to have children. Today they are Old, Sick, Broke and alone. WT does not care and has blamed them for taking those decisions."
Speculate Tishri 20, 2025 CE. End of 6000 years. End of Daniel's 70 weeks.
Yeah right, 11:02! Cue the Who's "Won't Get Fooled Again!"
so many of us during this era leading up to 1975 had considered the JWs to be kooks and misfits
I remember hearing that the staff who cleaned out HWA's library after his death found quite a bit of old JW literature. You might not have been knowledgeable about the JWs, but HWA most certainly was.
I remember reading about in the late 60s that GTA and a few others had come to doubt the 1975 prophecy and 19 year time cycle but HWA and a few other hard liners resisted any change to the narrative. Then when it came it went, headquarters tried to spin that they NEVER said that 1975 was gonna be the start of the end in spite of old literature and tapes of sermons saying otherwise. Is Flurry having his Celtic dance troop scheduled to perform at Adullam?
Put your name to that prophecy, coward.
For me, the object lesson of all the prophecy jive is that you should never join an organization that exalts prophecy and subordinates loving God with your whole heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Armstrongism even went so far as to assert that the gospel was really about prophecy. If you join such and organization, you will be pierced through with many sorrows. Remember 1844.
Scout
Actually according to the Gen preflood genealogy in the LXX we might already be past 6000 years.
I don't recall the JW's specifying 1975. But during the 70s and 80s, some literature emphasized 1914 - that Jesus would return before the last people born in that year passed away.
Yet regional summer JW conferences still attract thousands of people. So things have not collapsed as much as this video indicates.
As I understand it, PCG also has encouraged members to throw out literature from its early years.
Nah, 1972 was the year. Maybe ‘75 was after the 3 1/2 years, but it was all about ‘72. I am certain of this because I was to graduate in ‘72 and my mother made no provision for me to go to college that year. SMH
My observation is that the long term benefits of being a member of any organization is zero. The group allows its members short term benefits, but then demands its pound of flesh in return.
Yes, 4:28. He had actually written articles in the PT and GN proclaiming that he was never a Jehovah's Witness, or Seventh Day Adventist, which was technically true. However, he kept his influences, the people he plagiarized, to himself! I had never heard of GG Rupert either, until reading posts from that same cleaning crew that there were also some of Rupert's collateral materials in the private HWA library.
You must always wonder about someone who publically refers to his acolytes as "dumb sheep". We were not so dumb! We did end up figuring it out!
BB
Yea the 1975 in prophecy hurts the framework of prophecy within Armstrongism. See in armstrongism this had to take place within their framework: red heifer (daily sacrifices), evil dictator coming out of Germany, the false prophet (pope) out of Europe, a united states of Europe being the beast power, the king of the south having a potent military, a place of safety clearly defined and located, and of course a church making herself ready (supposedly being the WCG), with the two witnesses being able to shut up heaven for a couple of years prior, along with the great tribulation that was to occur beforehand.
1975 hurts the faith within Armstrongism. Here we are 50 years later and everyone makes mistakes, but are they gonna learn from their mistakes?
Only “Two score and Ten” will tell,
Tank
What - next you will tell me you don't believe in 19 year time cycles? :)
I will always remember the absurdity of the WCG changing its decades old narrative from German Bombs dropping on America in January, 1972 and the beginning of the Great Tribulation, to the new spin which came from HWA a month later (when people started questioning) that the significance of the end of the 19 year time cycle in the first week of January, 1972 was (drum roll, please)... Advertising in Reader's Digest!
Instead of hundreds of millions of people dying in the Great Tribulation, HWA picked a Church media event just like he did in 1953 (World Tomorrow broadcast going to Europe), to keep his 19-year time cycle alive and intact. You can't make this stuff up, and the absurdity of it all woke a lot of people up - including me.
Richard
Anon 1102 and 717
If the 6000 year narrative be true, the question is, when does the count start? Does it begin at creation or when Adam and Eve were cut off from God and expelled from Eden? That could be a considerable time gap. Also, are there any apparent differences in the manner of God's reckoning of chronology compared to man's?
In Bullinger's Companion Bible, Appendix 50: Chronological Charts and Tables, we find one of the most comprehensive detailed displays of Biblical reckoned chronology, yet Bullinger is a 100 years off in his dating of certain events compared to the "received dates" of most of the leading Biblical chronologers. He appeals to the "Lo-Ammi" period (Hos.1:9) where God considered Israel as "not my people", which according to Bullinger factored into God's perspective on Biblical dating which even affected the timing of the jubilee cycle.
Is Bullinger correct? I have no idea, but either way it does demonstrate that making predictions about the future, based on human calculations using man's understanding of Biblical chronology without knowing the full scope of the mind of God, is both faulty and risky at best!
There is a reason why only God knows the day and the hour!
Or, according to the reckoning of the keepers of the oracles (Jews) , we have over 200 years to go. Now, I shudder to think of what the world will look like even in the next ten years, once folks have begun abusing AI, but Jewish folk do know the Torah better than the agenda-based pseudo scholars of Russellism and Armstrongism!
Just glad I was born when I was!
BB
It's a thing, 10:55. The lunar phases repeat their timing every 19 years. Science forces you to believe that! It's just that they do not have the Biblical significance which HWA attached to them. Readers' Indigestion ad indeed!
BB, I know they have it at 5875, so keep in mind according to armstrongism the GT is 3.5 years and then the heavenly signs, then the day of the Lord. So yea,
I think I'll just focus on "the man in the mirror". regardless
Tank
I have a friend in one of the splinter groups whose parents held him out from beginning school in the late ‘60s early ‘70s due to this. He was tall and won the genetic lottery but still looked ridiculous being head and shoulders taller (literally) than his 2-3 years younger classmates in the 6th grade. God bless us all!
Jewish Year 5785 doesn't compute: Bible - 1655,427,400,480,429 years...to about 585 BCE, + 2609 = 6000.
Excerpted from the introduction of Old Neo’s Encyclopedia of Practical Millerites, Third Edition, page xvii:
Google AI tells us: “Approximately 4 in 10 Americans believe Jesus Christ will return to Earth by the year 2050. This belief is more prevalent among certain groups, such as white evangelical Christians, with 58% expecting a return by 2050. A Pew Research Center survey found that 41% of Americans anticipate Christ's return by then, with 23% saying it will definitely happen and 18% saying it probably will.”
North America is rooted in apocalyptic thinking. The Puritan Separatists brought this attitude with them on the Mayflower in 1620. It is surprising that there were not many more Millerite Movements in the history of our nation. Prophecy has been commercialized, weaponized and fashioned into liturgy by various denominations on the American scene. If you want to put a sense of urgency behind denominational fund-raising, a prophecy shtick is the way to do it. You can take a boring denomination and spice it up with prophecy and it becomes a palatable dish. The downside is that prophecy becomes dominating and other Christian ideals are neglected.
Garner Ted Armstrong used to say that “one full third of the Bible is prophecy and ninety percent of it is yet to be fulfilled.” This is a prophetic overlay imposed on scripture. It is a Millerite hermeneutic. For those who believe this, it dramatically activates the Bible as a book of predictions. And once the engine is started, it is difficult to shut it down. Failed prophecy does not seem to rehabilitate true followers of the prophetic way.
What is clear is that there will be, at the seething apocalyptic margins of America, more 1975-type experiences to come. It’s the American way.
Historicism is an interesting topic.
Also, with regard to the day-year correlation, many of the Protestants during the founding years of the USA held that as part of their belief system before the Millerites.
If we look at the percentage of the US population which self-identifies as "Christian" the percentage of the general population which believes that Jesus Christ will return becomes totally believable. It's just that most of them do not assign hard dates as we and the Jehovah's Witnesses and William Miller had. The LDS folks, as an example firmly believe in the return of Jesus Christ. They just believe it is futile to set a date, and frankly, they get kudos for that, because it squares with what Jesus actually said.
In the final balancing of the account, what is important is how that teaching and the date setting were used on the people who were taught it. I see a lot of manipulation and fear mongering. The video tells the tale. Very bad fruits were produced by it, and very bad fruits were demonstrated in the backpedaling and mistruths promulgated by the leaders. This is a very big deal!
BB
The booklet “1975 in Prophecy” was quietly taken out of circulation in the run-up to 1972. I don’t know the exact year, but I am guessing by 1970 the booklet wasn’t available by writing into headquarters and requesting it.
It should be noted that two years after the failed January, 1972 Great Tribulation (and therefore the failed predicted 1975 Return of Jesus Christ), the R/WCG had its first major schisms with 3,000 brethren splintering into the Associated Churches of God in 1974. That schism was primarily a rebellion against Garner Ted but other doctrinal issues such as Divorce and Re-marriage, use of medical profession, Monday or Sunday Pentecost and other classic R/WCG beliefs including the failed “1975 in Prophecy” played in. Ministers such as Ken Westy, George Kemnitz, Paul Zapf, Tom Williams, Walter Sharp and Carl Fowler that I remember off hand to name a few joined in the Associated Churches of God. One year later, Evangelist Raymond Cole left to form Church of God, The Eternal in 1975.
Both of these Splinters that occurred while Herbert Armstrong was alive would never have happened before the 1972/1975 in prophecy failure as the entire Church waited for the fulfillment of the Great Tribulation and the return of Jesus Christ. This epic prophetic failure opened up the door for other classic R/WCG doctrines to come under scrutiny.
Richard
"The downside is that prophecy becomes dominating and other Christian ideals are neglected."
__________________________________________________________________________
Correct 6:58: When one is so focused on the prophecy gospel, one's psychology puts the christian values and fruits that could be attained on the backburner. One tends to focus on this nation and that nation and how it relates to the nation that you are in. A nation becomes a fictitious enemy in your mind and they are actually not. And those nations may not even be the physical/spiritual representations within end time prophecy.
All that focus on prophecy gospel (instead of a gospel that’s geared toward Christian living that can translate to something greater), and what happened within Armstrongism: The son of HWA, that being GTA is disfellowshipped in 78’, who would have been the clear successor after the death of HWA in 1986, an eventual “apostasy” in the 90’s that leads to splinter groups all over the place. And notice, each group wants to get their same “prophecy gospel” message out instead of trying to reconcile each of the groups.
Lake of Fire Church of God at 11:42,
" One year later, Evangelist Raymond Cole left to form Church of God, The Eternal in 1975. "
Technically, the year of the formation (corporation) of Church of God, The Eternal is correct. However, Raymond Cole did not leave because of failed prophecies especially 1975 or abusive administrative policies. He was on sabbatical but later put out of WCG for not accepting the major doctrinal changes of 1974. If there were no major doctrinal changes of Monday Pentecost or Divorce and remarriage, I am sure he would be still in WCG.
Which brings to mind his firm belief that WCG members fail to differentiate between WCG's overlapping problems of prophecies, administration and doctrinal changes. He said that doctrines should not be sacrificed for prophetic and administrative failures of the 70s.
The groups don't want to be "reconciled" as RCG/WCG was never one in the past anyway.
Touting reconciliation of the groups, was always known as a sign of Tkatchite controlling apostacy in the past.
Beware !!
The religious apocalyptic movements have essentially reduced the Parousia to a kind of conspiracy theory. There is research on why some people are motivated to believe in conspiracy theories. This is cited from research published on the American Psychological Association website:
“The researchers found that overall, people were motivated to believe in conspiracy theories by a need to understand and feel safe in their environment and a need to feel like the community they identify with is superior to others … The researchers also found that people with certain personality traits, such as a sense of antagonism toward others and high levels of paranoia, were more prone to believe conspiracy theories. Those who strongly believed in conspiracy theories were also more likely to be insecure, paranoid, emotionally volatile, impulsive, suspicious, withdrawn, manipulative, egocentric and eccentric.”
Doesn’t sound much like the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Scout
Sunday, July 13, 2025 at 7:48:58 PM PDT:
Thank you for the clarification. I didn’t mean to imply that the failed 1972/1975 in prophecy was THE reason or A reason for either Raymond Cole or the Associated Churches of God lead by Ken Westby to splinter into their own offshoots. What I said was “This epic prophetic failure opened up the door for other classic R/WCG doctrines to come under scrutiny”.
I am not aware that there were any doctrinal changes or serious discussion thereof that occurred in the R/WCG BEFORE the failed 1972/1975 prophecy. Divorce and Re-Marriage and Monday to Sunday Pentecost occurred after January, 1972.
The WCG’s Systematic Theology Project occurred sometime in the 1970s to the best of my knowledge and memory again after the failed 1972/1975 Prophecy.
Funny I can remember things from over 5 decades ago (i.e. Church of God, The Eternal incorporation in 1975), but I can’t remember what I did an hour ago, LOL.
Richard
That's what happens when they also reject science (psychology).
I remember hearing a minister on a telecast by one of the splinter groups, claiming that it's wrong to try and take current events and read them into the bible. Well that's exactly what they do when it comes to their prophecy doctrine.
Tank
Since when are all Sabbath Christians conspiracy theorists ? I've never heared such ice cold insults and condecending absoluts before in all my life.
People are individuals with freedom of thought and their own personalities and thoughts over a myraid of thinking yet you like to jump to conclusions and, broad brush mark them as enclosed cartoon dumb characters. Like trained pet dogs you give the impression you can manipulate Sabbath Christians to fit into your preconceived boxes. Get them to be who you decide they are. Practically sub human like jews in a nazi concentration camp.
Your comment neither sounds much like the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Anonymous 12:25 wrote, "I've never heared such ice cold insults and condecending absoluts before in all my life."
You mean you have never heard how Armstrongists talk about Christians?
Scout
“I've never heared such ice cold insults and condecending absoluts before in all my life.”
That’s rich. Your lack of self awareness is typical of COG members. So, your constant referral of anyone who isn’t in a COG splinter as a “laodicean” or an “unconverted worldly person” or “false Christian” isn’t ice cold and a blanket statement? Hypocrite. You’re skin is awfully thin for someone who spends their life being critical and judgmental of anyone not in their special group.
12:25 How did you get from Sabbath Christians to cartoon characters, to pet dogs to sub human to jews in a nazi camp? You sound like you're drunk with the wine of hwa fornication
.
Sober up, this is just a blog.
Oh wow another lousy insult 8:05. Not sorry to dissapoint no i'm not drunk with either alcohol or fornication.
Please see 5:16 comment above. Am i not allowed to comment? Going to get hypercritical responses? Good, go for it. i'm so not afraid of all your hate, i'm going to comment all the more.
Scout.
No i've never heard Sabbath Christians talk nastily about Sunday keeping Christians. Must have been around genuine Sabbath Keepers, once in my life.
My own other half, was brought up a baptist and is from a strong baptist family.
But i have heard a Pastor talk nastily about his own congregation to his superdeacon friend, during the Feast of Trumpets meal. Really nit picking a young family to death. I heard every word he said. Now that was nonChristian behaviour. I'm sure you'd agree.
Scout.
No i've never heard Sabbath Christians talk nastily about Sunday keeping Christians. Must have been around genuine Sabbath Keepers, once in my life.
My own other half, was brought up a baptist and is from a strong baptist family.
But i have heard a Pastor talk nastily about his own congregation to his superdeacon friend, during the Feast of Trumpets meal. Really nit picking a young family to death. I heard every word he said. Now that was nonChristian behaviour. I'm sure you'd agree.
This is really funny! Somebody seems to think that we have it in for anybody who believes in Jesus Christ, and keeps the Sabbath! That is ridiculous! I personally have great respect for Messianic Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, members of COG-7, and any other non-authoritarian Christian sabbath keepers! HWA's "dumb sheep" are an anomaly amongst sabbath keeping Christians, simply because they have gone down the racist rabbit hole of British Israelism, Gap Theory Creationism, that Simon Magus started the Catholic Church, they repress and ignore actual history of the first 3-4 centuries of the CE, they believe instead in the widely discredited and debunked writings of Alexander Hislop and Immanuel Velikovsky, they believe extrabiblical theories, such as 6,000 years for man, 1,000 years for God, the theory of church eras, and they refer to God-fearing Christians who keep the day of the Lord in commemoration of Jesus Christ's ressurrection as "Christians falsely so-called".
Don't attempt to include other sabbath-keeping Christians who don't practice HWA's heretical modifications in your own persecution complex!!! I love what Jewish people do with Shabbos, and the meaning it brings into their lives. And, they don't beat their kids! People who use the sabbath to exclude others, and to feel all elite and puffed up, otoh, kind of make me feel sick. Ever think that maybe you are just looking into a mirror? That you get in return what you yourself give off? Sheesh!
BB
Correct BB, and they continue to believe in the prediction addiction with their version of prophecy. You can keep the Sabbath without all that other rabbit holes. And we can name several other things as you mentioned that are off basis that are within armstrongism.
5:16 outrageous false accusations. I don't use the word ladociean ever even as an insult,, as i don't believe in church eras.
The fruits of the Holy spirit are a reflection of the mind of Christ, which is given for our discernment, growth and perfection. Without it, a "belief in the truth" is impossible and we make a mockery of the Biblical injunction to "take heed that no one deceive you (by any means)", Matt.24:4, 2 Thess. 2:5-13.
One of the most basic tenants in logic and debate is the need to define terms. Many questionable plans have been fraudulently marketed with vague terms. Consider the " conspiracy theory ".
Although the term CT lacks any fixed definition, it does serve a fixed function. Its function, like the word " heresy " in medieval times, is to stigmatize people with beliefs which conflict with official narratives or orthodox beliefs of the time or place in question. The term is always used pejoratively as part of an ad hominem attack on the opposition without having to argue the merits of the claim. It implies that there is something inherently wrong with believing in conspiracies. This is obviously untrue historically. Wanting to personally investigate the facts for oneself about ANYTHING is a noble trait and not a liability.
Why this war against "thinking"? Defining your opposition and labeling them before they have time to label themselves is a powerful corruption of words and language. Consider how the power structure of the day delt with Jesus Christ!
As He gained popularity with the people, Christ became a legitimate threat to the religious establishment and their office. They had no intention on engaging Him on doctrine or the truth, but instead attacked His personality and credibility---He's a bastard, He has a demon, He's an agent of Satan, a liar, cheat, a no good, He's spouting conspiracy theories! This is not a new phenomenon, but a Biblical model of what we see happening today when anyone opposes the official narrative. I would hope ex Armstrongites could identify with that but apparently not.
Much of what is called " truth" today stems from research. But research requires funding and promotion which can be given or withdrawn at will based on the agenda of the funder. It is not exact science and immune to questioning, even though the Pharisees thought otherwise.
In 1973 the American Psychological Association underwent a significant shift in it's stance on homosexuality. The APA officially removed homosexuality from its list of "medical disorders", a decision that was NOT BASED ON SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE but rather on political and social factors (see Homosexuality and Scientific Evidence, NIH, National Library of Medicine/ PubMed, R.L. Kinney, Nov.2015).
Why this change was made I will leave it to you to ponder, but it does illustrate how untrustworthy it is to use the APA to beat people down. Whether it be an official narrative or a supposed conspiracy theory, the expectation of man is to fall in line. The expectation of the Spirit is to discern and understand, not to forbid or ridicule. That is the point of this blog site is it not?
The 1972-1975 blunder by Armstrong is the dehorning of armstrongism. Mainly because Armstrong is “supposed” to be an apostle and/or the Elijiah to come. See, you can’t miss on the 1975 in prophecy if one is God’s true apostle or the elijah to come. It’s par for the course.
Imagine if the apostle Paul or Peter wrote that Christ was going to come back in 70 AD and was warning the church earlier say 67AD and then it was all in their writings that were later canonized. Imagine the scoffing for the next thousand years or so. They wouldn’t dare write something unless they had it confirmed in a vision or dream. Or Christ or an angel telling them so.
Tank
12:25 wrote " I've never heared such ice cold insults and condecending absoluts before in all my life."
Bloody hell! Talk about gaslighting! Armstrongism has done this for decades. Just look at the little worm Bob Thiel with his constant harangues against what he labels as "so-called" Christians. Look at the decades of lies that the church has said against Catholics and Protestants alike. There are far better Christians living the gospel outside of Armstrongism than you will EVER find in the Church of God.
BP8 7:00
What I cited was a study done by Emory University. I would assume that scholars at such a university would be certain to use the scientific method. Otherwise, they would get torn up in peer review.
You can read the results of their study. I provided it here. This is real world. This is data that you can and should respond to. It is up to you what conclusions you draw. I have given you mine.
Scout
I cannot thank you enough BP8 for this comment. Thank you.
Let's get something straight! The phrase "Conspiracy Theory" stigmatizes people who cannot prove their beliefs!
Also, Science corrects beliefs, based on the constant influx of information and experience! Left-handed people at one point were stigmatized, and often thought of as being witches or of the devil!
Have i no right of reply to these outrageous vile accusations from BB?
Awful, just awful mocking bullies of men. I've never encountered such cruel, mocking people before.
People can prove their beliefs but chose not to in such an abusive arena of this blog, where the verbal bullies know each other and work in waves.
God the Father and Jesus Christ are not respectors of people but this blog clearly is.
What are you blabbering about 11:41? Did your little feefees get hurt because people disagree with you? Get over it, drama queen!
What good are you as a witness, 11:41, if you choose not to prove your beliefs?
Or, actually, paraphrasing HWA, "Why are you here?" Gotta get that reward for enduring a shot of persecution each day?
Scout 1004
You should know by now how these "studies" work. Researchers will interview a very small percentage of the population, give them selected questions, then grade them by the answers the RESEARCHER deems correct. It is totally open to interpretation. And like the shift on homosexuality by the APA, not very scientific.
Peer review? It's way overrated-- can be bought and paid for like anything else. Money talks! Consider how easily politicians are bought off.
You are right about one thing. This is the real "world" and Scripture doesn't speak well of it!
Also, for your information, the APA and most universities don't think much of Christianity either. I definitely wouldn't trust them to evaluate Christian conduct or what the fruits of the spirit are and are not. My two cents!
I hope you have your mock-a-sins on, 10:31, cause you are deliberately baiting us, and you know it! I hope you and I don't end up in the same FEMA camp during the Trib!
BB
I think you've fallen into that age old trap of creating strawmen from the worst stereotypes, BP8, and then attacking as if everyone involved in a given field conformed exactly to your stereotype. Nothing could be further from the truth! There are researchers who do indeed conform to your strawman stereotypes. No doubt about it! They're the bad actors. They are usually highly partisan "influencers", not necessarily known for dealing in the truth. More like dirty tricks! But there are also the honest ones in the majority who contemplate all the data, and produce an honest and factual, trustworthy representation. One can easily discern which is which, because the influencers lapse back into partisan language when interpreting the facts, and selling us on the results. One needs to apply the same skill in evaluating surveys as one does when discerning the quality of reference materials when preparing a paper. There is good, and there is shoddy. The shoddy ones always have their "tells" which expose them.
Over the course of my life, it's been my experience that if one relies on the best the mainstream has to offer, one does well. It's usually stuff that actually works, and has in some cases for centuries. People into fringy things and the attitudes which accompany them may pride themselves in being enlightened and right, but that does not translate into a quality life, a successful family, or a good career.
HWA, in collecting his sheep, destroyed their trust in all of the institutions and principles that stable, successful people trust and rely upon, and then slipped in all of his "perfect" solutions, revolving around himself, the great apostle. He did the very dishonest things which he attacked the mainstream as having done, ripped us off, died with the most toys, and won! And he left a time bomb in each of us which some don't even realize is still within themselves. His methodology, He laid the blueprint with his system of evaluating everything around us. The fractured logic which made us accept him as our solution, and causes us to be attracted to people just like him! Some never shake that! We all ought to!
For some people, HWA was the smartest person they ever knew. Pity. They should have gotten out more!
BB
You know a lot of people in worldwide could have had a simple procedure from the doctor but instead they chose not to go and they sadly passed. I am just bringing up the science angle.
Also some colleges are christian colleges, some universities have religious studies. Some universities have historical studies of Christianity and it's role down through the centuries with the crusades and dark ages. And that track record ain't good. Universities are not religious institutions. You're going to need scientific study and STEM.
What do you want, young people not to further their education. You make good grades and after 12th grade, and then nothing. Jobs want people with degrees, until the paradigm changes (or AI starts taking most of the jobs).
The issue is you're choosing one particular thing (alphabet community) and discrediting the whole study that has to do with something entirely different which is conspiracy theorists. Well, we can also do that too the other side.
BB 338 writes
"There are the honest ones in the majority who contemplate all the data, and produce an honest, factual, and trustworthy representation".
As individuals and a collective society, we certainly hope that is the case, and on a small scale it may be. But in the big pond, I find these types rare and in the minority. They do exist, but if their honest data contradicts the official agenda, they are branded according. We witnessed that during the covid narrative.
Concerning conspiracy theories, there are legitimate arguments against official narratives, and there are " fringy things and attitudes " that are extreme and truly wacky (bigfoot, Elvis, tin hats, etc.). Unfortunately both are considered and presented to be one and the same, which is deception of the highest order. We are living in times where we are engaged in a war over reality. This doesn't help!
Thanks Bob for your input.
Owie, 11:41! No more chocolate bunny rabbits for you! Keep on being a meanie, meanie, and I'll teekle your pharsin!
Anon 510
If you carefully read Scout's APA published report, it's apparent to me that it could apply to ANY GROUP in one way or another. As far as we know, it could be a generic recycled study on human nature or motivation in general.
What "motivates" people to believe in God (or a myth as our atheist friends would put it)?
Why do people join cults?
What kind of personality trait would believe in a Satan?
Why are people prone to believe in and accept official narratives?
Scout's report could easily be used to fill in a lot of those blanks.
The point about the APA is, they were politically and socially pressured in the 70's to make a huge shift on "homosexuality" that was not based on scientific research, but social engineering. This is not about getting a job or an education, but the shaping of society's view on "reality". Most peoples idea today on reality is shaped by a controlled media and which political party is in office.
What does that tell you?
Well said BP8! So very true! I’ve heard the label “conspiracy theorist” was created and used by the CIA to dismiss those who questioned the official narrative of the JFK assassination.
11:50, 12:55 & 8:15 Same person on repeat. By the time you got to 8:15 you seem to have lost the ability to type in english. Oye Vey!
BP8 7:13 wrote, “But in the big pond, I find these types rare and in the minority.”
What you are saying is that you believe that most science is “fake science” and not to be trusted. While this view certainly fits into the divided and polemical America of the present, is this the impression you really want to give? Do we class you with the MAGA people for whom conspiracy is the only desirable reality?
There is a war against reality at this time as you point out. But it is worthwhile to try to understand the nature of this war. It is not a methodology against methodology war or a data against data war. It is rather a war that has been precipitated by categories of people in open rebellion against methodology itself and data itself. It is a war where the rebels believe that social media is a divine oracle that can parse the truth from propaganda. It is a war where the rebels assert “alternative facts” vested with politics but without etiology other than hearsay. While this has always been, it has now reached surprising and stratospheric heights of pathology.
I made the comment I did because it supported my empirical experience of being a thirty-year, card-carrying Armstrongist. I have scanned the original work done by researchers from Emory, MIT and the University of Regina. I cannot vouch for the statistical methods but this is where peer review comes in.
You may want to review the original work and give us your critique as to why you believe it is untrustworthy. It can be found at:
https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-bul0000392.pdf
Or, alternatively you may want to defend your chosen version of Armstrongism by invoking your own empirical experience. This blog accommodates that. And this would be the appropriate thing to do.
Scout
BP8 and the thing is even armsrongist reality is shaped on the media of Fox News and the controlled media that you speak of. You see it in their articles and their video clips. They just regurgitate what conservative talking points that they receive from them. Where was APA study on racism, because that still exist and exist within Armstrongism?
I know what happened in the 70's and the gay agenda. In the end IT IS about careers and how much men can make so they can take care of their families. It is about buying homes so that people can have a sense of ownership. Otherwise you're going to get lower birthrates, lower people hooking up and more people experiencing in certain fetishes. The economic decay happens then the social decay happens.
Tank
Armstrongism only wants to defend science when it fits their convenience, when it doesn't firt their narrative, then it's "too liberal" and is not of faith.
Scout 650 says,
"I made the (APA) comment because it supported my empirical experience of being a 30 year card carrying Armsstrongite".
So what are you really saying? Are you confirming my previous point that the Emory statement could apply to any group in one way or another, whether Armstrongism or conspiracy theorists? If so, I think you are right.
What makes the statement untrustworthy for me is it doesn't even bother to define the term " conspiracy theory ". We are just supposed to accept the negative and crazy connotation (big foot, tin hats) most put on it, and believe it purely on the researchers say so. This is both deceptive and dishonest. Since it has been admitted that many so called conspiracy theories (challenges to the official narrative, not bigfoot) are in fact true, or have been proven true, what does that say about trashing an exact science?
I' don't need to add anything to what I have already written. If you require clarity, go back and re-read my comments. Also, please lay off the false labels (MAGA, chosen version of Armstrongism). Neither apply to me or my position.
There is no need to defend MAGA or Armstrongism or further critique the APA. In my opinion they all operate by the same principles and belong to the same club. It called " the World "!
BP8: I had picked up on what you expressed in your final sentence some time ago. That didn't work for me. It was too broad a brush stroke to meet my needs.
Instead, I did some parsing. You almost need to have the mentality of a gambler (absenting the compulsion, of course!), because you decide where there can be greater or lesser trust, and of course, the areas where there can be no trust at all. As an example, I do not purchase new or used cars from dealerships or salesmen! Learned that early on!
Most of the time, I assign levels of trust, figuring percentages, and monitoring carefully. I'm really big on the scientific method, while also being guided by the Golden Rule. But, over all, the people who screwed me over the worst were the people who claimed not to be "of the world." The alternatives they presented were vastly inferior to those whom they claimed were "of the world." They failed to develop anything superior in terms of alternatives. I do tend to trust people more who have specific areas of expertise, and a successful track record. But you have to be aware also of those who glibly use deception in ecercising their expertise. Checks and balances. Cost-benefit analyses. Constantly exercising both. Fool me twice, shame on me. It's not "the world" that I consider to be my enemy. It's the bad actors, the incompetent, the people with hidden agendas, and the mean-spirited. I can even work with some with whom I am at counter objectives.
Nuff steam. That's just me, though.
BB
As a scientist polymath, I meet monthly with a group of friends in a book/thought club. Two are medical doctors and I mentioned how a past editor of the Lancet and a past editor of the New England Journal of Medicine both said that over a 15 year period that half the research conclusions were proven false later.
While one can argue that this is science correcting itself, it does show that these peer reviewed studies should always be viewed with a critical eye.
I align with Scout's view on Science more so than BP8's, but medicine (particularly nutrition) and psychology are subject to inaccuracies and false conclusions at a rate making skepticism a wise scientific approach.
There actually are people who think I have been unreasonable by not allowing the church a delay of fifty years in the fulfillment of the HWA prophecy mold, but yes, when the Germans didn't show in '72, I spotted them the extra 3-1/2 years until sometime in 1975 before leaving. They had definitely taught us 3 mathematic equations in AC Second Year Bible Class in 1967 on which the 1972-75 dates were based. And, then of course when it didn't come to pass, they lied and said they never set dates!
Well (as the "Ephraimites" would say) Bollocks!
BB
BB 120
You are right about trust. It is a case by case matter depending on the circumstances and people involved. It must be earned and not blindly accepted.
When I speak of this "world", I'm not referring to Joe 6 pack, but the human institutions that operate in a totally self serving manner and in complete contradiction with the Golden Rule. There is no need to single any one out as an example other than the one common denominator on this site, Armstrongism.
Armstrongism exercised power over the trusting innocent, made outrageous demands on peoples time and pocketbooks, and would spit anyone out who challenged and disagreed. There was no basis for trust!
But that movement was/is but a microcosm of the greater world system, where the BIGS (Big politics, Big Ag, Big Pharma, Big oil) all have have their own official narratives that the little guy is expected to follow without question, and " alternative " ideas are shot down and branded as false conspiracy theories. When Christ walked the earth, He called the representatives of this system hypocrites, blind guides, thieves, and fools, and He openly called out their exclusion, perversion, inversion, extortion, and deception. The Bigs today all share these same traits.
Are there good and honest scientists, doctors, teachers? Yes, but like I said before, I believe they are in the minority and really have no ability to reform the system or change the environment they must function in. I was fortunate enough to have good and decent ministers in the WCG, but they had no power and followed orders like the rest of us. Look at the flack RFK Jr. is getting from the Bigs about cleaning up our food supply. Even with his high position he has no chance. There is too much money at stake.
I have proven for myself that I can be healthy and happy following natural (alternative) methods, regardless of the conspiracy theory tag. I don't need their vaccines, their junk food, their opiodes, their blood pressure medicine or their farm chemicals. Unfortunately I'm still a slave to Big oil, but like the mini series "Landman" points out, oil runs everything on the planet.
Maybe most here consider my worldview to be wacky and crazy, but I would think that those who experienced both Armstrongism and the covid fiasco would understand where I'm coming from.
I see some things we agree on, BP8. Slightly different methodology has led us to some of the same conclusions.
The most inexplicable occurrence during the Covid episode to me was that President Trump worked his ass off to get the researchers to dial in the codes on the vaccine, and the FDA to expedite its approval, and then his people revolted and refused to take it! Frankly, I myself waited a good 6 months after I became eligible to take it, letting others be the guinea pigs. I finally got sick and tired of my KN-95s (try wearing one all day with a beard,) went for the shot and booster and have lived happily ever after.
I didn't go overboard, when Covid broke, but I picked up a generator, propane stove, a mess of ammo, extra vitamins, especially immunity boosters, and foods people don't normally have as staples of their diet from stores they normally don't shop at. Sidestepped the whole shortages thingie that way. I've owned a copy of "The Freedom Outlaw's Handbook" forever. So, yeah, there's the side of me that comes out when there's a national crisis or emergency, but I don't live in a state of fear of the zombie apocalypse. Mostly middle of the road existence.
Apologies for the digression!
BB
Rice & Beans baby
Right on, 10:05. There was also tons of beef jerkey at the gas station markets. Yum!
BB
Just FYI: I remember the Hebrew calendar being in the 5700 range being explained by taking 200 years of observation in order to create the calendar. So tack on 200 years, and it puts it into the 5900 range.
It’s still Bravo Sierra.
I get ya BP8. I haven’t had a vax since 96. And there was no way I was going to take the Covid jab knowing what I’ve learned about vaccines and the history of such. Everyone else around me took it. My uncle even acted all self-righteous when he did and accused me of not being a Xian coz I refused to comply. For me my thought process was I’m going to die anyway but I’m not going to give my obedience to a government that is acting immorally and unlawfully. My loved ones thought processes were similar but opposite ie I’m going to die so what does it matter if I take something that will kill me. I’m just grateful God watched over me and my loved ones throughout. I definitely feel it was a test and a future trial greater than it is no doubt to come. I’ll do the same as I did if history repeats itself in my lifetime ie I’ll resist till I’m dead and if TPTB think because of my choice I and those like me are deserving of persecution and/or death that’ll be on their own heads so be it.
WHO WAS FIRST TO PUBLISH THE YEAR 1975 , JWs or HWA ?
To the scared individual at 10:50 AM Friday:
Herbie the Pervy published “1975 in Prophecy” booklet in 1956, according to a sycophantic source: https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/get/hwa.cgi?action=getbook&InfoID=1692963342
JWs first suggested 1975 in 1966, according to a hostile source: https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/1975.php
Of course, neither explicitly states “Christ arrives in ‘75.” SOP for entities setting dates is to leave such explicit statements to local preachers in sermons and interpersonal communication. This allows for plausible deniability. Your Harold Campings and Ron Weinlands, and even your Al Gores, stand out in giving relatively exact dates from the top.
"WHO WAS FIRST TO PUBLISH THE YEAR 1975 , JWs or HWA ?"
"JWs first suggested 1975 in 1966"
Thanks for that Lee. It seems 1975 was a rare case of convergence with two highly competitive divergent Millerite spinoff cults.
The 1960s being a golden age of Millerite revivalism. Look how bullish HWA's WCG was in the mid sixties; the WCG train was rockin' & rollin' down the track at a mile-a-minute. Of course when you're going that fast, there's a danger of being derailed (1972)
It was the mid sixties that the JWs published a massive speculative piece called "Babylon the Great has Fallen", I believe it also used Herbie's 2500 year "A day for a year"prophecy principle (which may date back to earlier Millerites like GG Rupert?) An ex JW insider, R Franz, would later describe how they frigged the year 607bc "fall of Babylon" to make their year 1914 prophecy work out!
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