It's that time of year again - time for COG Members and families to go forth and celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles, in obedience to the prophetic writings of Zechariah in chapter 14. For the COG Community, because the Bible Says It, you then must do it, as a commanded convocation, and this is enough reason for them. Let's look at Zechariah 14:16 and it's commentaries:
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lordof hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts. (NKJV)
Zechariah 14:16-21 Matthew Henry's Bible Commentary (Concise) (Bolding mine)
"As it is impossible for all nations literally to come to Jerusalem once a year, to keep a feast, it is evident that a figurative meaning must here be applied. Gospel worship is represented by the keeping of the feast of tabernacles. Every day of a Christian's life is a day of the feast of tabernacles; every Lord's day especially is the great day of the feast; therefore every day let us worship the Lord of hosts, and keep every Lord's day with peculiar solemnity. It is just for God to withhold the blessings of grace from those who do not attend the means of grace. It is a sin that is its own punishment; those who forsake the duty, forfeit the privilege of communion with God. A time of complete peace and purity of the church will arrive. Men will carry on their common affairs, and their sacred services, upon the same holy principles of faith, love and obedience. Real holiness shall be more diffused, because there shall be a more plentiful pouring forth of the Spirit of holiness than ever before. There shall be holiness even in common things. Every action and every enjoyment of the believer, should be so regulated according to the will of God, that it may be directed to his glory. Our whole lives should be as one constant sacrifice, or act of devotion; no selfish motive should prevail in any of our actions. But how far is the Christian church from this state of purity! Other times, however, are at hand, and the Lord will reform and enlarge his church, as he has promised. Yet in heaven alone will perfect holiness and happiness be found."
Such an interpretation was never considered in the Worldwide Church of God Days. Zechariah 14 - as most of the prophetic writings were in the Old Testament - was taken absolutely literally. Did we ever consider the fact that our literal interpretations of scripture were wildly out of the realm of realism?
Coffman Commentary:
Any literal acceptance of this verse as a pledge that God will destroy the whole world except a remnant of Jews in every nation, and that the entire physical earth shall journey three times a year to physical Jerusalem to live in tents for a week must be accounted as a preposterous misunderstanding.There is nothing in the last 2,000 years that resembles a fulfillment of this prophecy, except the repeated triumph of Christ and his gospel in those very lands which once were pagan enemies of the Lord. This verse is a pledge that it will continue to be so.
Yet it is exactly that "preposterous misunderstanding" that the Churches of God hold to - and dearly - when it comes to what they view as biblical support of their steadfast adherence of their unique version of the Feast of Tabernacles. What logistics would be required to literally bring "all nations" to the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem? "You, your son, your daughter, your maidservants, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widows"? Has it ever truly been considered that the city of Jerusalem itself cannot possibly contain all nations within it's gates?
Have the logistics of food, water, sewage, lodging, sound, meeting (how, when, where) ever been considered? It was our belief way back in the day that a literal (there's that word again) Super-Highway would be built to handle the traffic of all nations. Again. Has anyone considered the logistics?
Perhaps we were certain a supernatural miracle would have had to happen. In exactly the same way we took other literal prophetic statements - such as the taming of wild animals in the World Tomorrow - to be supernaturally conducted.
So here's the question. For those who hold on to the "literal interpretation" of the Zechariah 14:16 prophecy concerning the Feast of Tabernacles, I ask you - have you ever considered the logistics - and why is it a figurative allegory to these verses cannot, and does not, to you, apply? If Herbert Armstrong was wrong about over 200 "prophecies" in scripture - then what makes him so right about understanding Old Testament prophecies such as the Zechariah prophecies?
I will tell you on my end as one born and raised in the Church - it was taken absolutely literally, not figuratively. I was not told how these things would happen, just that they would happen. This led to more of a sci-fi like understanding of how these events would transpire in my young mind. Certainly, it would have to be somewhat different for those who came into belief of these prophecies through Armstrong who may not have seriously read these scriptures before.
Let's have a conversation on Zechariah 14, how you interpreted it then, how you interpret it now, and what it was that made or makes you believe a particular way about this particular prophecy. Please comment below if you are so inclined.
submitted by SHT
70 comments:
Oops, apologies SHT. We seemed to have hit the "publish" button at the same moment.
I reverted to "Draft" to allow time for yours to be considered etc. Will post another time.
One C of God used the argument that since the FOT is going to be celebrated in the Kingdom (Zech 14:16), we should do the same today. Well, in Zech. verse 21 it says they will also offer animal sacrifices. So, why don't they also offer animal sacrifices? Also, isn't someone supposed to be blowing on a shofar during some of these feast days? Who's going to do that? Gerald Waterhouse was a long-winded blowhard, he would be a candidate, if he was still around.
I would suggest that there would be representatives from all the nations who come to Jerusalem, much like representatives come to the U.N. There can be local observances, as well. There aren't enough portable toilets in the world to handle everyone coming at once. I just got back from a trip to Kibera, the largest slum in Africa, located in Nairobi. They have "flying toilets." People use plastic bags then throw them as far as they can . . . anywhere. So, now we know what happens to the WalMart bags that we recycle.
The "everyone" is every one of the NATIONS, not every one of the PERSONS. WCG taught, as do most of the splinters today, that REPRESENTATIVES of each nation will come.
There are many reasons to find fault with ACOG prophetic understandings, including Zechariah 14. But the fault is typological and theological, not logistical.
Lots of hyperbole for sure but I suspect that the Jewish people at the time, hoping for the Messiah to come thought of it rather literally true. There was no future Jesus and New Testament analogies seen in all of this, of course, for the people of the time to whom Zachariah was writing.
"All Nations" tended to be used rather liberally as hyperbole in the OT
1 Kings 4:34
Men came from all peoples to hear the wisdom of Solomon, from all the kings of the earth who had heard of his wisdom.
Daniel 4:1
Nebuchadnezzar the king to all the peoples, nations, and men of every language that live in all the earth: "May your peace abound!
Daniel 3:4
Then the herald loudly proclaimed: "To you the command is given, O peoples, nations and men of every language,
Daniel 3:7
Therefore at that time, when all the peoples heard the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, bagpipe and all kinds of music, all the peoples, nations and men of every language fell down and worshiped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
Daniel 6:25
Then Darius the king wrote to all the peoples, nations and men of every language who were living in all the land: "May your peace abound!
Daniel 5:19
"Because of the grandeur which He bestowed on him, all the peoples, nations and men of every language feared and trembled before him; whomever he wished he killed and whomever he wished he spared alive; and whomever he wished he elevated and whomever he wished he humbled.
Zechariah 12:3
"It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.
Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; (Hard to do on a round earth :)
Luke 4:5
And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Revelation 13:7
It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
John 7:7
"The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
John 12:19
So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him."
Acts 2:5
Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. (Except the Mayans, Inca, Aztecs, Mongolians and such:)
Acts 19:27
"Not only is there danger that this trade of ours fall into disrepute, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis be regarded as worthless and that she whom all of Asia and the world worship will even be dethroned from her magnificence."
Revelation 18:3
"For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality."
I have been to Har (Valley) Megiddo, or Armageddon where ALL the armies and kings of the earth are to gather to fight Jesus and the Host of Heaven. Ummm...no. Too small.
Or as Israel Finkelstein, author of The Bible Unearthed, standing next to me said, "We exaggerate."
PS... and don't even ask about Mt Zion, "the joy of all the land". In reality, it is just another hill and not very mountain-like. Not much different than all the other hills around Jerusalem. Hyperbole...
don't even ask about Mt Zion, "the joy of all the land". In reality, it is just another hill and not very mountain-like
Dennis, you would have been a lousy travel agent! Even Detroit and Omaha have tourist bureaus that try to paint their cities in the most positive and exciting light. But I should know better. Even your Psalms to YHVH would have been a little less dramatic than David's, wouldn't they?
"Praise the Eternal!
Praise His entirely adequate name.
Praise Him as one of the better second-tier members of El's Council of Seventy!
Praise Him in the heavens, though the heavens are pretty impressive even without Him!
O, Eternal, I know you would kick my butt if I entreated Chemosh for help, even though His people think very highly of Him.
So, Eternal, I come to you for help. Please smite my enemies.
Because all of that "Turn the other cheek" stuff gets used by the powerful to demobilize the powerless."
Why would it be impossible for all nations to go up to Jerusalem at the beginning of the millenium? Obviously when it says "all who are left" we're not talking about billions of people.
If the bible is true, and God does return after cataclysmic events on earth where vast numbers are killed, we have no clue how many will be "left" or if the furthest lands on earth will still be occupied. Won't all people "left" want to be as near to God as possible?
Also, will it just be the males like under the old covenant? Who knows.
It also says whichever of the "families" so apparently a representative of a family would be enough. Again, who knows.
There are levels of literalism:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_literalism
So your accusations against the WCG of taking Zech. 14 literally reveals your dishonesty. The WCG taught that Zech. 14 most likely meant representatives from each nation, not every person from each nation.
At the beginning of the millennium it might be possible for everyone, but I doubt that's what it means. The WCG teaching that it is most likely talking about representatives from each nation is the most likely and you are being dishonest as you are in many of your posts SHT.
oh man.....the lengths some people go to in trying to disprove the bible (under the guise of disproving HWA)...
where to start............or, maybe I'll just heed the warning against casting pearls....
Dennis “The Menace” Diehl,
From that new photograph of yourself that you post with your comments lately, it looks like you have started to groom yourself much better since finding your new girlfriend. Now you look all outdoorsy and healthy and manly, rather than like a pale indoor minister.
I suppose women will do that to a guy.
As I recall, it indeed was taught that representatives from all nations would come to Jerusalem, not everyone.
Will Vatican City, which is actually a real nation, also be sending a representative? ;-)
Here ya go 219. Updated from a 150,000 year old Neanderthal to two years ago in the Portland Library in the religion section where HWA spent his "six months of intensive Bible Study" I added the pipe. I was actually holding a copy of Mystery of the Ages, upside down but that's another story.
This illustrates and important point about the Bible - it is a dynamic book and not a static one. The force behind its dynamism is Wisdom. Its difficult and sometimes allegorical statements evoke Wisdom as a means of applying its principles at different times and under different conditions. This, of course, is incompatible with literalism. But it is quite compatible with the way Jews handled the Bible. Deuteronomy (Second Generation) is an update of an earlier dispensation of the law yet Deuteronomy is referred to as the word of God as if given directly through Moses (First Generation). And then there is the Talmud. Yet, the New Testament recognizes the credentialing of the Jews with the statement: "the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God."
My view is that Christ is our Sabbath and Holy Days under the New Covenant. So Zechariah's reference may be to a relationship between Christ and the Nations of that future time - an invocation of the spiritual content of the FoT rather than an engagement with its physical forms and logistics. It is not possible for Zechariah's statement to be an abrogation of the New Covenant view of the Mosaic Law.
About 500,000 fit into a farmers field in Bethel New York in August 1969 for the greatest three day music and art exposition ever held.
A reconfigured landscape (Zech. 14:4-11) a lot less people, possibly the male of the family only and it is easily doable to have "all nations that are left" in Jerusalem for the Feast.
The concept of only believing what is possible or not based upon what is now, sets a person up to be quite wrong when events take a dramatic turn in world affairs. What would a few nuclear bombs dropped on Jerusalem or Israel do to the landscape of that country in this age? And of course that would never happen in some peoples mind who believe world leaders couldn't be that irrational to do such a thing.
Prophesied events detailed in the bible have most of their meaning when they happen. And if we are still alive when they do start to happen, will we be able to stand in the day of the Lord of Armies?
About 500,000 fit into a farmers field in Bethel New York in August 1969 for the greatest three day music and art exposition ever held.
A reconfigured landscape (Zech. 14:4-11) a lot less people, possibly the male of the family only and it is easily doable to have "all nations that are left" in Jerusalem for the Feast.
The concept of only believing what is possible or not based upon what is now, sets a person up to be quite wrong when events take a dramatic turn in world affairs. What would a few nuclear bombs dropped on Jerusalem or Israel do to the landscape of that country in this age? And of course that would never happen in some peoples mind who believe world leaders couldn't be that irrational to do such a thing.
Prophesied events detailed in the bible have most of their meaning when they happen. And if we are still alive when they do start to happen, will we be able to stand in the day of the Lord of Armies?
Zechariah is not to be taken literally! Nothing in the bible is.
The gospels were wholly plagiarized from mystery religion allegories and repackaged as events in the life of a mythical guy called Jesus.
The OT also contains a mix of (i) history (who knows how much is accurate) and (ii) allegories from the mystery religions repackaged as Jewish history.
So the OT and NT are similar: both are fake histories based on pagan myths.
ASB Thoughts: I personally believe true Christian living would be beneficial even if a person had trouble believing in the biblically God and the life of Jesus Christ. Why do I say this? One reason is that original writers of the scriptures were human beings that wanted a world where there was peace not war and a life that was working in a harmonies unity that was acceptable to all those living together. To have such a world there would need to be a super power that all accept to make it happen.
This may be defined as a spiritual warfare between good and evil that people are involved in and the solution is to stand firm with God and resist the evil that is prevalent in today's world. We do not need to struggle with trying to understand everything to enjoy a life that reflects Christian living. ASB
" The WCG teaching that it is most likely talking about representatives from each nation is the most likely and you are being dishonest as you are in many of your posts SHT."
This was not a dishonest statement. In the early years, especially, HWA and company were extremely adamant and literal about the FOT and who and how they would get there. This is something I researched extensively when I was looking at HWA's early writings. The thing about the COG Armstrong Era is that it was not consistent - it changed widely throughout the decades of it's strength. Just because you remember one doctrinal shift in its era doesn't mean there were not other doctrinal shifts before and after. What one labels as "dishonest" may very well be based on a differing writing at another point of time. Just FYI.
Zechariah has always been an enigma when it comes to interpreting prophecy, and I can suppose that many throughout the WCG Timeline can recall different sermons from different ministers highlighting their own opinions on how certain things are going to go. I can recall one particular Preaching Elder giving a sermon on exactly how "he" thought that Trumpets was going to play out when it came to exactly how Christ would return. He had an entire sci-fi script playing out there, let me tell you. And that's exactly what it was, a sci-fi script.
Dennis, no worries. All of us who contribute on this platform can never know when another contributor has something to share and reflect on. Thanks for giving this contribution a little time to gather some opinion. :)
Dennis “The Menace” Diehl,
I noticed that your buddy in unbelief, Aron Ra, likes to groom himself and dress like a Devil's Advocate. Maybe you could help him to redo his image into something healthier looking too.
SHT said...
" The WCG teaching that it is most likely talking about representatives from each nation is the most likely and you are being dishonest as you are in many of your posts SHT."
This was not a dishonest statement. In the early years, especially, HWA and company were extremely adamant and literal about the FOT and who and how they would get there.
I agree with SHT. I never heard that only representatives would be sent to the FOT of Zachariah's prophecy. It was implied it was for everyone. But just as thinking it through logistically and even dealing with people who were being forced to attend upon pain of starvation in the next year etc was never addressed it was just easy to assume a generic "somehow all that can happen" Like the no global consequences for stopping the rotation of the earth "for about a day" or even moving it backwards 10 minutes ago just to prove a point to one sick man or battle thirsty king
SHT, ok, you claim to have researched and found past teachings of HWA that says everyone on planet earth during the millennium will go to Jerusalem for the FOT, give us the links.
As for Dennis' "I never heard that only representatives would be sent to the FOT of Zachariah's prophecy." Again, I call bullshit on your remark. HWA was an egocentric, arrogant fool but he wasn't stupid. As if he didn't understand the logistics of everyone on earth going to Jerusalem, especially after a hundred years of" being fruitful and multiplying", if that is even done during the millennium.I
You guys are so dishonest!
It is very simple. If one would read what is actually written and think about it, one would discover that it is entirely possible.
Why is that?
Zec 14:16 And it shall be, everyone who is left from all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, YAHWEH of Hosts, and to keep the Feast of The Sukkot.
The poster should have noted the words: 'everyone who is left' implies that the population that is remaining, is very small.
Dennis at 2:58 AM seems to be mixing two different WCG teachings together and coming up with a mistake.
The teaching was that in the Millennium "everyone will keep the Feast of Tabernacles."
The teaching (as supported by the Hebrew grammar indicating that the "every" refers to "nations" in that sentence, rather than individuals) was also that Zechariah 14 prophesied that during the Millennium every nation will be found at the FOT in Jerusalem.
WCG never taught that Jerusalem would be the only FOT site in the Millennium. Most would keep it locally, but a few from every nation would go to Jerusalem. At least that's what I heard in WCG from 1968-1996.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade, but I attended from 1958-1975, and the first I ever heard anything about “representatives” was a couple days ago right here at Banned. From 1966-75 I was at HQ in Pasadena, a student at AC for two years, and a worker at AC Press for 6 years.
But then, there has been quite a bit of revisionist history and back-writing by the “HWA was right!” folks amongst us. We are told that HWA never set dates, there was no institutionalized racism in the church, no child abuse, and nobody dying as a result of the medical doctrine. This denial of past idiocy is disingenuous, preposterous and offensive and demeaning to those who endured it. Some of you have unwittingly become lying sacks of shit! If you really want to be the good people you profess to be, you should learn the truth and repeat it instead of attempting to support the church by lying for it.
BB
Dennis- next you will be telling us that three million people plus millions of cows, sheep, goats, chickens, bulls and rams did not leave Egypt overnight in the Exodus.
Plus maintained a clean camp.
I'll second BB's post. I attended from 1961 until the mid-90s, including 1968-72 at AC Pasadena. That passage was always assumed to be literal, and there was often imaginative speculation about the logistics of it(especially by Gerald Waterhouse), but it would have been considered borderline blasphemous to doubt that it was meant exactly as the KJV stated it. I share BB's sense of outrage at Armstrong apologists and historical revisionists who seek to sugarcoat the misery and confusion inflicted upon the membership by the church's harmful teachings and the ministry which helped enforce it.
Sorry to rain on your parade BB but apparently you're not the expert after all. From the 1978 Systematic Theology Project (I seriously doubt this was a new idea that was not taught in 1975)
"To accomplish this, all nations shall send representatives to Israel to learn of God's ways and laws (Is. 66:18-21,23; Zech. 14:16-19), and Israel shall send teachers to all countries to help them apply these new concepts and put them into practice in their daily lives."
Here's the link:
https://hwarmstrong.com/history/stp-project/Chapter28.html
km
Well, TLA, if three million people could leave Egypt overnight, and then spend 40 years in the desert without leaving any sign of their journey for archaeologists to find, it isn't that much harder to believe that a few million survivors of World War III can journey to Jerusalem using whatever amazing technology (WingsOfEagles™?) is available at that time.
Also, remember that if you are a Bible literalist, 𝜋 = 3 (1 Kings 7:23).
SHT concluded his post saying: "...Let's have a conversation on Zechariah 14, how you interpreted it then, how you interpret it now, and what it was that made or makes you believe a particular way about this particular prophecy. Please comment below if you are so inclined."
Well, there was considerable conversation.
A bottomline seems to be: "Zechariah 14:16 is a "Profound Misunderstanding!"
HWA never properly understood Zech 14, and neither did we back then while he lived. He was ignorant; so were we.
HWA then, like so many still today, as if driven be "another Spirit" and preaching "another gospel," was locked on to a false plan of salvation with wrong timing of events, believed in a Mickey Mouse Millennium with Jesus ruling on earth for a 1,000 years.
The events of Zech 14 will not become reality until sometime AFTER Satan is loosed from the pit and is again allowed to deceive all human beings of earth alive at that time...and that followed by the 7 Vials/Plagues being poured out resulting in, among other things, Satan being killed.
Those cited verses of Zech 14 will be fulfilled after the above occurs and the second resurrection happens, and since most still cannot believe that at this time, time will tell...
John
P.S. for those who want to think about it: where are those 10 kings of Rev 17, those 10 nations, you watch and wait for? HWA watched, and waited, too, but he was ignorant of God's Plan of salvation to save humanity, take/destroy Satan and his Angel's, and especially the timing of events.
Time is telling!
Yeah John, time will tell that you are wrong. You can mark my words.
Kevin, I'm just going by what I heard in sermons, read in the publications, and what was believed by members and employees during my personal tribulation (period of membership in the WCG). As a child and as an adult I soent about 19 years in Armstrongism. The scripture was taught and take literally.
I have a problem with your use of the STP as reference. You attempted to explain away the date, (it differs with my tenure), but we must also remember that the STP was rejected by HWA for many reasons, some of which involved changes and revisions of which he did not approve. It was never published amongst the members, although certain of the ministry who were involved did have advance copies which they have stated were later recalled. The whole debacle ended up being blamed on GTA and his alleged liberalism. You are citing a document which HWA specifically instructed was to be destroyed, as it made some fundamental changes to HWA's original theology. That it even exists today demonstrates that someone, somewhere rebelled and retained a copy or copies. The official position is that it was a junk document, one that was never implimented. However, you are to be excused for falling into a familiar trap, because I don't believe your intents are malicious. People of a certain mindset still cite the Compendium even though its author has largely disavowed it, and has stated that he was wrong about numerous things.
BB
Dennis: Are you prepping for an audition for a Geico commercial???
BB
BB, Armstrong didn't want the STP because it didn't give him the freedom to change on a whim, like makeup. I seriously doubt that he rejected it because of a "representative" being taught for Zech. 14. (not saying you said that, just adding a little color)
My intent wasn't to call you all liars because I don't really know exactly what was taught in 1975, hell I was only 11 years old. But I do know that in the early 80's it was taught that representatives from each nation would go to Jerusalem for the FOT. If that was taught in the 80's and it was in the 1978 STP, it wasn't a new concept, nor something Herbie was against, not after he got the church "back on track" (what a hoot).
Just as SHT said, there were many HWA's over the years, which is why I said he was being dishonest in his article because even if he once taught that all on earth would attend, he later changed. Probably because someone pointed out the logistic problems to him. As I said, at the beginning of the millennium it is very well possible that all will attend, but as the population increases that will be impossible, but who knows.
I know one thing though, my memories of what WCG taught in the 80's may be vastly different than those from the 60's and 70's, but when I point out the differences I'm not revising history, nor am a sack of shit, though if it's there I'll most certainly stir it. 😉
Byker, the STP was indeed rejected as a whole. However, as you surely know, it contained a mixture of truth and error, of long-standing fundamental WCG doctrine as well as liberalism and exotica.
If you are going to reject everything in the STP, you'll be rejecting many core WCG doctrines that no one disputes, and even some doctrines common to all forms of Christianity.
Your comment, however, shows exactly WHY so many felt the need for a standard reference for WCG doctrine. For most of the lifespan of WCG, doctrine was whatever the Pastor General said it was, but he didn't have the wit or the interest to get down into some nitty gritty details which he left to other ministers to flesh out. It is precisely because some ministers taught what you were taught, while others were taught what Kevin and others were taught, that the STP was (for a while) deemed necessary.
One big problem within WCG is that brethren were taught that God's Church™ would always speak the same thing, so when they heard a teaching they usually assumed it to be God's Truth™. The STP revealed this to be false. With the arrival of the STP, many members for the first time realized just how much variance existed in the church's teachings, and on top of that HWA didn't like to be pinned down to a document whose authority would exceed his own. The STP wasn't dumped because it was true or false. It was dumped because it was incompatible with the governance and culture of WCG.
Byker, Dennis' new appearance actually validates HWA's anti-intellectual approach to theology. "It's so easy, even a caveman can do it!"
The evidence shows that a whole time cycle in Armstrongism causes irreparable harm to a weak mind.
It is so easy to see what a bag of liars people like BB are.
Yes I heard about FOT at Jerusalem.
But as a sane rational person like hwa it would not cross my mind for one second that 12 billion people would actually go there at the same time.
Only the insane would harbor a thought like that.
Probably the same insane people that read all kinds of horrible requirements into wcg teachings that were never there. Like finding out how to keep the FOT properly on Mars or in retrospect demanding all kinds of levitical requirements for believers while admitting to hedonistic lifestyles themselves. Some would call that hypocritical. But the word hypocrite would only be applicable to an equal, not low life spiritual degenerates posing as teachers without getting the facts straight or representing the facts as they were handed to them in a warped and twisted way in the first place. It's that simple. It happens when one rejects basic values, then everything gets blurred.
It's the reasoning of criminal minds, justifying the means after knowing the end in court.
Nck
BTW I ll promise to read the original posting too if my rant gets published.
I hardly read the original as I m usually triggered by the incredible flaws in the responses.
Unfair to original contributor, I,ll mend that.
Nck
A few selections, as asked for.....
"When the earth becomes one world in the millennium, then there will be only one place in the World Tomorrow for the Feast of Tabernacles-Jerusalem, the geographic and communicative cen- ter of the coming age" - Good News, 1957
"In your Bible, in Zechariah 14: 16-19, God declares He is going to PUNISH Egypt or any other nation that dares to stay away from the Feast of Tabernacles during the Millennium! It is so important to God that He is going to intervene in the weather patterns and send a terrible drought if they won’t come. Then, if they still refuse, God is going to send a horrifying PLAGUE on those who refuse to attend (verse 18)." - Rod Meredith, Good News, September 1962
"And it shall be that whoso will not come up of all families of the Earth [including all Gentile nations] unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts, even upon them shall be no rain." - The Wonderful World Tomorrow, What it will Be Like
"Notice the 16th verse of Zechariah 14. After Christ returns, the nations - mortal gentiles who have not yet received salvation, will come to Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles!" - Pagan Holidays, or God's Holy Days, which?
"To receive salvation, even the Gentiles will have to keep this Festival. Of course, it is commanded forever!" - Pagan Holidays, or God's Holy Days, which?
Yep, that’s pretty much what I was talking about, SHT. PH\GHD? came to mind as I was thinking about how to address the responses from the other side while drinking my Tetley green tea this AM. I also knew some of this material would be primarily in archive editions of the GN. Glad you had the time to research this out. Busy day for me, as Fridays always are.
BB
SHT
Would you include in your calculation, the notion that HWA believed that by visiting ONE representative person) the leader) . He believed and taught that he had fulfilled Matthew 24 and had preached the gospel to the ENTIRE nation.
Moreover I believe there was something about "ambassadors" in wcg teaching. But I can't remember the word Ambassador was not mentioned frequently in wcg.Harharhar LOL lol.
Kinda like the "Israelites paying tribute" to the Assyrian Kings on the walls in the British museum.
The insane here would interpret that ALL 1 million Israelites would visit the hall of shalmanezer to pay tribute. Of course only the high representatives would represent the people at Asshurbanibals place, while ALL would contribute their bushel.
Nck
STP was also labeled the slide toward Protestanism. i recall being told of some of its contents, which certainly implied this. But as pointed out, HWA would not appreciate any document that could limit his power.
SHT, Thanks for the references, but again how one interprets those statements mean a lot. Were they referring to the beginning of the millennium or throughout? I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but at the beginning of the millennium it will probably be possible for all "who are left" to come to Jerusalem. But as the population increases that won't be feasible. I think our entire debate is on semantics. How each individual interprets what's being said.
As I said, I don't know exactly what was taught pre late 70's, your references help, but as I said, they can be interpreted differently by different people.
Hows this for clarity? At the beginning of the millennium "all who are left of the nations that came against Jerusalem" (which will most likely be a small number since most according to Zechariah are killed) will have to go to Jerusalem for the feast. Then as time goes on and population explodes a representative from each nation is sent.
I agree it's all speculative, but as I said, there's enough Armstrong evils to mock, this one teaching didn't deserve the mocking write up imo. But that's just my opinion.
STP was very accurate. The only reason it was dismissed was because it violated the hwa principle that all was revealed by God through hwa. STP would iron out inconsistencies and therefore by definition violate the Armstrong chain of command.
Nck
The OT prophecies about the sacrificial system in the Millennium are interesting - sounds like their vision of the future did not include the Messiah's sacrifice for sin.
Of course, this is the logical explanation. The COGs have tortured the scripture to come up with their way around this.
TLA, Or perhaps the reason for the animal sacrifices in the GWTJ is to show todays Christians who find the action repugnant, who teach easy Grace, just believe brother, no need to strive to obey. Maybe Jesus is going to show them what they seem to forget, Jesus died because we disobeyed. What better way to show these easy Grace people that disobedience demands death than to make them do what Israel had to do. One thing that I've learned is that as you age you have more respect for life than when you're young. I get off my lawn mower if a katydid or a walking stick crosses my path and move them. Imagine in the GWTJ that every time you sin, instead of just getting on your knees and asking for forgiveness, an easy out, which most of them thought they only had to do once, "surely not for every little sin" they think, what if they have to take a small lamb, goat, turtle dove, and kill it? If they don't get the message in this life that sin deserves death, maybe with such a drastic measure they'll understand. This whole game we're playing is about sin/disobedience and what we earn for it. Death! It's not about, "Just believe brother, that's all there is to it" even the demons believe. It's about whether we're willing to obey God or not. It's not about obeying what some man says, or not obeying what some man says we don't have to obey. We each had better get on our knees and ask God what he expects us to obey. Perhas it might even be best to obey things that we're not so sure that we have to obey just because the winds of confusion are so strong today in Christianity. Do we really want to be among the firstfruits or not? I didn't invent the concept of firstfruits, nor did HWA. That comes from the bible.
When looking at pictures of the Grand Mosque at Mecca during the Hajj I have wondered about the Millennial Temple and the FOT.
According to Wikipedia the site area of the Mosque is 356,000 square metres with a capacity of 1.5 million worshipers.
The Millennial Temple, according to Ezekiel’s use of the long cubit, is around 67,600 square metres. The Mosque therefore is over 5 times larger the Millennial Temple.
Eze 46:9 But when the people of the land shall come before the LORD in the solemn feasts, he that entereth in by the way of the north gate to worship shall go out by the way of the south gate; and he that entereth by the way of the south gate shall go forth by the way of the north gate: he shall not return by the way of the gate whereby he came in, but shall go forth over against it.
Crowd control will be important as the population increases. Some quotes on the Hajj in regard to accommodating large crowds:
“... given that a quarter of the world's population is Muslim, there's not room for everyone in this small patch of desert. The New York Times recently calculated that if all the world's Muslims wished to undertake the Haj, it would take them 581 years at present rates.
“So the Saudi government allocates each of the world's nations a quota for the year's pilgrimage, with pilgrims booking their travel and accommodation – from first-class through to more basic – through accredited agents. Pilgrims arriving in Mecca must surrender their passports to Saudi authorities in return for a Haj ID, which they return in order to redeem their passport.
“Nations typically are allowed 1 pilgrim per 1000 Muslims in their population, though Saudi Arabian citizens can apply once every five years. In Indonesia – the nation with the world's largest Muslim population, which was allocated 204,000 places this year – millions of people are on provincial waiting lists ranging from 12 to 17 years”
(https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/two-million-people-300-escalators-one-holy-mission-what-is-the-haj-20190730-p52c58.html).
“The 20sq km Mina tent city is located 5km east of the Holy City of Mecca and is packed with 100,000 air-conditioned tents that accommodate up to 3 million people during the annual five-day pilgrimage”.
“The plan also focuses on completing the necessary requirements to provide 36,000 toilets for use during Hajj”.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
It would seem that the principle of pars pro toto [Latin: a part (taken) for the whole] will have to be employed in keeping the FOT.
Back in grade school, one of our favorite games when inclement weather prevented us from taking recess on the play ground was “Gossip”. The teacher would whisper a sentence into the first person’s ear. Each person was to turn and repeat exactly the same sentence into the next person’s ear. The last person would then repeat out loud what he or she had heard. Invariably, it would be completely different from the original. I don’t believe that everyone played by the rules. Unless someone had had beans for dinner the previous evening, how else would you pick up a “raspberry” (farting noise) in the middle of a sentence?
What we discuss on a daily basis here about the old WCG is a product of many factors. There is the evolution of the movement, the “gossip” effect, and probably an occasional dose of agenda injected into the mix. I try to keep everyhing honest because that is the only way you have the credibility and the moral high road which would assist someone in leaving the cult. But, many things have happened since 1975, in that church, and in my life. Each of us have our individual perspectives, which is essentially our own personalized reality. Stlll, I believe that most of the leopard’s spots were present throughout the history from 1956-present. Society around us has also continued to evolve. Imagine being transported back into 1956 before fuel injection, and having to be aware of cars stalling in traffic, the fact that pre-EMT ambulances were basically taxis to the hospital, and there were no cell phones except pehaps an approximation in Dick Tracy comics.
It’s really a wonder that we don’t have more serious arguments here, considering all those factors.
BB
Part 1
TLA writes:
“The OT prophecies about the sacrificial system in the Millennium are interesting - sounds like their vision of the future did not include the Messiah's sacrifice for sin. Of course, this is the logical explanation...”
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Perhaps TLA’s last sentence could be qualified with “this is the logical explanation using modern-western concepts”.
Even though my use of modern-western logic maybe below standard, I do not consider it a logical explanation.
Lev 4:26b and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 12:8b and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.
While Christ’s sacrifice paid the penalty for sin (cp. Rom 6:23) and purges the conscience from dead works (Heb 9:14) it does not negate the necessity of sacrifice for sin and ritual uncleanness in God’s theocracy:
"Though commanded by God, animal sacrifices in Israel could never remove spiritual guilt from the offerer. The Book of Hebrews is very clear about that (10:4,11). But it is equally erroneous to say that the sacrifices were mere teaching symbols given by God to prepare the nation for Messiah and His infinite atonement. Such a view is contradicted by precise statements in Exodus and Leviticus. From God's perspective, this was surely a major purpose in the sacrificial system; but it could not have been their exclusive purpose from the perspective of Old Covenant Israelites...
"Now what does all of this indicate with regard to animal sacrifices in the Millennial Temple for Israel under the New Covenant? It indicates that future sacrifices will have nothing to do with eternal salvation which only comes through the true faith in God. It also indicates that future animal sacrifices will be "efficacious" and "expiatory" only in terms of the strict provision for ceremonial (and thus temporal) forgiveness within the theocracy of Israel. Such sacrifices, then, will not be primarily memorial (like the bread and the cup in church communion services), any more than sacrifices in the age of the Old Covenant were primarily prospective or prophetic in the understanding of the offerer" (Dr. John C. Whitcomb, whitcombministries.org/ Biblical_Articles/Animal_Sacrifices_In_Israel_Past_And_Future.php).
"We also observe that the millennial sacrifices will be more than a memorial. In a theocracy (where the government law is God's law - such as Israel had under the Mosaic law), the breaking of the theocratic law brings temporal judgement (Zechariah 14:16-19) - no rain, famine, illness, or disease. In order to escape the temporal judgement, an animal sacrifice is offered to atone for the breaking of the theocratic law. This will be the case during the millennium where the whole world will be under a theocracy" (Joe Jordan, carl-olson.com/correspondence/animalsacrifices_lahaye.html).
"The majority of dispensationalists have argued that the sacrifices are memorials to the sacrifice of Christ, with no atoning character. However, the idea that these are memorial sacrifices is no where apparent in Ezekiel, and it is specifically claimed by Ezekiel that these offerings will make atonement (45:15, 17, 20)" (Ian M. Duguid, Ezekiel, NIVAC, p.521).
Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever...
Eze 44:19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.
Atonement through animal blood will be required to maintain Christ’s holy dwelling presence in the Millennial Temple.
Part 2
Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
Perhaps a disadvantage in Christ coming in the flesh has led to an under-appreciation of His holiness.
Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
Lev 15:31 Thus shall ye separate the children of Israel from their uncleanness; that they die not in their uncleanness, when they defile my tabernacle that is among them.
It is suggested that appreciating God’s holiness as revealed in the Mosaic and Ezekielian Torahs, especially Leviticus and Numbers, will aid in appreciating the necessity of animal sacrifice in the coming new Covenant Kingdom of God.
Eze 46:24 Then said he unto me, These are the places of them that boil, where the ministers of the house shall boil the sacrifice of the people.
Lev 7:11 And this is the law of the sacrifice of peace offerings..
Lev 7:15 And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten the same day that it is offered; he shall not leave any of it until the morning.
Lev 7:16 But if the sacrifice of his offering be a vow, or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:
Lev 7:17 But the remainder of the flesh of the sacrifice on the third day shall be burnt with fire.
Lev 7:18 And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted,
Sacrifices are also for fellowshipping with God.
As an aside Leviticus 7 provides support that “the third day” is a Hebrew idiom for “the day after tomorrow”.
The offering for a vow or a voluntary offering may be eaten the day it is offered [the first day] and on the morrow [the second day] but not on the third day.
So if a sacrifice is offered on the Preparation Day (Friday) this is the first day it may be eaten. The second day, the morrow, the Sabbath, is the second day it may be eaten. But it could not be eaten on Sunday, Sunday being the third day from Friday.
Support is also supplied in:
Ex 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes,
Ex 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
Ex 19:15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
Ex 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning
It is argued that the Ten Words were spoken on Pentecost Sunday; if so Sunday is the third day from Friday.
Using modern western logical concepts Sunday is the third day from Thursday, but using ancient near-eastern concepts, Sunday is the third day from Friday.
BB “gossip”? We called that game Chinese whispers! :-)
I completely agree with what you wrote Yes & No to HWA re “‘the third day’ is a Hebrew idiom for ‘the day after tomorrow’.” In fact, the Bible from Genesis to Revelation uses inclusive counting unlike the modern Western mode of exclusive counting. We still have remnants of this mode of inclusive counting in various languages today. For instance, in Italy if it was Monday and I were to make a date to see someone on Monday week I’ll say, “I’ll meet you in 8 days” (“otto giorni”) since today is day 1 and included in the count unlike in the American or British mode of exclusive counting (i.e. today is day 0). Interestingly in the English language remnants survive of counting days beginning with the evening like in the Bible. For instance, sennight, fortnight, even Christmas Eve and New Years Eve.
I don't think there's ever been doubt that "the third day" is an idiom, it's the "three days and three nights" that some claim to be an idiom, which it isn't.
8:09
Actually you’re mistaken. 3 days and 3 nights is a Bible idiom just like 40 days and 40 nights and 7 days and 7 nights etc.
Hi 1:10, that was an interesting note about “otto giorni” - eight days/week.
Jn 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within…
“Whence it is, that, in memory of the want we were then in, we keep a feast for eight days; which is called the feast of Unleavened-bread” (Antiquities of the Jews, Book 2, Chapter 15, 317).
It appears that this is what is meant in the above.
(The second Sunday being day eight of the count to Pentecost).
“In the Old Testament the earlier practice seems to have been to consider that the day began in the morning. In Gen 19:34, for example, the "morrow" (ASV) or "next day" (RSV) clearly begins with the morning after the preceding night. The later practice was to count the day as beginning in the evening" (Jack Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology, Revised Edition, pp.7-8).
“Cassuto, after dealing with the biblical data and the Jewish custom, concluded that there was "only one system of computing time: the day is considered to begin in the morning; but in regard to the festivals and appointed times, the Torah ordains that they shall be observed also on the night of the preceding day" (U. Cassuto, Genesis, I, p.29 [his emphasis])..." (Ronald B. Allen, "'arab," TWOT, Vol.2, p.694).
In regard to 8:09, it appears that HWA didn’t understand the idiom/inclusive reckoning when he wrote:
“Sunday truly was the third day since Thursday. But it was not the third day since Friday…” (The Resurrection was not on a Sunday, p.13).
Ac 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
Cornelius was using inclusive reckoning counting parts of twenty-four hour days [onahs?]as full days:
"The time has come for Cornelius to explain why he summoned Peter to his house. In a few sentences he relates the incident that happened "four days ago at this hour." Strictly speaking [in modern western-counting], the time between Cornelius' vision and the moment he addresses Peter is only three days. But in first-century Palestine, the people regarded part of a day as a full day. Hence the day of Cornelius vision is the first day. Peter's vision and the arrival of the messengers from Joppa, the second; the day the travellers left Joppa, the third; the day they arrived in Caesarea, the fourth" (Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts, NTC, p.389).
A “day and night” may equal an onah:
“But how much is the space of an ... onah? R. Jochanan saith, Either a day or a night. And so also the Jerusalem Talmud: 'R. Akiba fixed a Day for an onah, and a Night for an onah.' But the tradition is, that R. Eliazar ben Azariah [late 1st CE] said, A day and a night make an onah: and a Part of an onah is as the Whole. And a little after, R. Ismael computed a part of the onah for the whole." Thus, then, three days and three nights, according to this Jewish method of reckoning, included any part of the first day; the whole of the following night; the next day and its night; and any part of the succeeding or third day" (Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible).
Mt 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mt 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
Counting parts of days as full days allows Matthew to use “the third day”/”after three days”/”three days and three nights” interchangeably.
5:19pm No, you're mistaken. It is not an idiom!
Here's one definition of an idiom:
1. a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words
Please tell me how "three days and three nights" meaning isn't deducible?
Could it be that people just don't want to take it for what it says so they claim it an idiom? Could an agenda be afoot?
Hmmmmmmm!
3:37am, but a Preparation afternoon crucifixion and First day of the week, morning resurrection, before sunrise, would only give you two days and two nights.
Preparation day, Sabbath night, Sabbath day, First day of the week night. Two days and two nights, with the first day being partial and the second night being partial. Remember the tomb was empty before sunrise.
That's the problem, you don't have parts of three days and parts of three nights in that scenario.
Again, three days and three nights is not an idiom. Whether partial days or not.
Hi 9:10
I do not see it as a problem as it is not part of the argument:
“R. Eliazar ben Azariah [late 1st CE] said, A day and a night make an onah: and a Part of an onah is as the Whole. And a little after, R. Ismael computed a part of the onah for the whole.”
The argument is for three units of time not six.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Typology would argue that just as the physical harvest doesn’t start on the Sabbath, the spiritual harvest also does not - just as Christ had to be killed “between the evenings” to be a Passover sacrifice.
The argument for "three days" may call for three units of time and not six, but the argument for "three days and three nights" calls for six units of time. Whether the first and last units are whole units is moot.
As I said, "three days" is most certainly an idiom, but "three days and three nights" is specific. Not necessarily 72 hours specific as herbie claimed , but at least six units of time specific.
Also, you said "the spiritual harvest also does not" start on the sabbath. Really? What is the millennium symbolic of if not our sabbath rest? When is the first resurrection? At the beginning of the millennium. Correct?
4:40; 9:10; 1:57
3 days and 3 nights is a Bible idiom for "the 3rd day" just like in the following examples (courtesy of https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/81/t/three-days-and-three-nights):
Let us now notice a few examples of this usage in the Bible that will clarify the problem before us. In Genesis 7:4 God said to Noah, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth.” But in verse 10 we read, "And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.” The marginal reading expresses it as "on the seventh day.” Pity the poor chronologer who tries to figure that one out. When did the flood come? In seven days? On the seventh day? Or after seven days? The answer is simple when inclusive reckoning is applied. The day on which God spoke to Noah counted as the first day, and the day on which it started raining was the seventh day. Even if God spoke just ten minutes before the end of that first day, it was still counted as one of the seven. And if it started raining at noon on the last day, it was also counted one of the seven. The same principle is revealed in the circumcision of babies. Genesis 17:12 specifies "he that is eight days old.” But Luke 1:59 reads "on the eighth day.” Luke 2:21 uses still another expression: "When eight days were accomplished."
Further proof for inclusive reckoning is seen in Joseph's dealing with his brethren. "He put them all together into ward three days. And Joseph said unto them the third day, This do, and live;... go ye....” Genesis 42:17-19. Consider also the tax issue between King Rehoboam and the people. "Come again unto me after three days. ... So ... all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day.” 2 Chronicles 10:5, 12.
Those who insist that Christ was in the grave a full seventy-two hours contend that the three days and three nights must be taken in the fullest literal sense. But such a contention is absolutely contrary to the testimony of the Scriptures. An example of the way the Bible uses the term is found in Esther 4:16. We read these words of Queen Esther to Mordecai: "Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise.” Esther 4:16. Do not overlook the fact that they were to fast three days and three nights. Yet almost the next verse tells us, "Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court.” Esther 5:1. Here is a perfect example of how three days and three nights terminate on the third day!
For me the days of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection were consecutive just as the gospel writers outline:
1. 14th day – Slaying of Passover lamb - Friday
2. 15th day – Feast of Unleavened Bread - Saturday
3. 16th day – Firstfruits of harvest presented -Sunday
There was no extra days between the FOUB holy day and the omer offering on Sunday as if there's a "conspiracy" involved by all of Christianity to hide the real date of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It's total bs!
"Esther 4:16. We read these words of Queen Esther to Mordecai: "Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise.” Esther 4:16. Do not overlook the fact that they were to fast three days and three nights."
Really? You don't see the deception in Amazing Facts' article above? Esther 4:16 does not say "three days and three nights" it says not to eat or drink for "three days, night or day".
There's a big difference between the two, if you refuse to see that I can't change your mind. But you're relying on total bs as you say.
"Your" outline is not the gospel writer's outline. Don't deceive yourself!
3:58 and 4:00
Believe HWA’s deceptive narrative all you want. I feel sorry for you and will pray for you.
5:17pm, It has nothing to do with HWA, it has to do with what the bible really says.
Don't you know that totally rejecting HWA means you'll also reject what little truth he did have/steal!
Baby, bath, and all that jazz!
BTW, I don't believe exactly what HWA taught. He taught that the night of Jesus' betrayal was the correct timing of the old covenant Passover. That was total bs. Jesus died at the correct time, between the evenings.
He also taught that Jesus' resurrection took place on the sabbath just before sunset. I believe that he arose just after sunset on the morrow after the sabbath when the wave sheaf was cut.
See there, it's possible to reject the old fool, HWA, and not the little truth that he stole from others.
While it appears “never the twain shall meet” I agree with 10:46's scenario.
The first day was Friday, Nisan 14, according to the calendar employed by John - not the synoptic calendar; the second day was Saturday, Nisan 15, that day was both a Shabbat and a Shabbaton, that is the holy day of the first of Unleavened Breads fell on the Shabbat in AD30; and the third day was Sunday, Nisan 16, the day after the Sabbats.
As an aside, leaving out the Day of Atonement, a Shabbat Shabbaton, the holy days are not Sabbats.
While only Alarm-blasts, and the first and last days of Tabernacles are called shabbatons (Lev 23:24, 29) [cp. LXX, anapausis], using the principle of gap-filling, the first day and last days of Unleavened Breads and Pentecost are by implication shabbatons, with all these days having the same work restrictions.
Just as the Sabbat, also a Shabbat Shabbaton, stood out from the other days of the week, so Atonement stood out from the other holy days, in regard to “work”.
Mt 28:1a Now after the Sabbath [sabbaton - gen pl neut]...
It is argued that Mt 28:1 refers to two Sabbaths. An argument against this, is that non-Atonement holy days - food preparation is allowed - are not Sabbaths; and that the singular and plural may be interchanged for the singular day, also seen in festive plurals:
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath [sabbaton - gen pl neut] day to keep it holy. (LXX).
Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath [sabbaton - gen pl neut] day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God commanded thee. (LXX)
Mt 22:2 Has become like the kingdom of heavens to a man, a king, who made weddings of him...
Mk 6:21 And having come [a] day opportune, when Herod on the birthdays of him...
Mk 14:1 It would be now the Passover and the [Feast of] Unleavened Breads...
Jn 10:22 Took place at the time the [Feast of] Rededications...
"Similarly in the Septuagint the plural is sometimes used where the original Hebrew has the singular, and where it is obvious that the reference is to a single day [Ex 16:25, 26; 20:8, 10; 35:3; Num 15:32, Deut 5:12]. There may be a parallel here to the custom of using the Greek plural for festivals such as the Feast of Dedication (John 10:22), the feast of Unleavened Bread (Mark 14:1), a marriage feast (Matt. 22:2) or a birthday celebration (Mark 6:21)" (Walter F. Specht, "The Sabbath in the New Testament" in The Sabbath in Scripture and History, ed. Kenneth A. Strand, 1982, pp.92-93).
Yes and no, you've shown the difference of shabbat and shabbaton in the old testament/Hebrew, but you haven't shown how they're differentiated in the new testament. Can you prove that the usage of sabbaton in the new testament can not apply to both the Hebrew shabbat and shabbaton? If not, the high sabbaton in John can still be referring to a weekday 1st day of unleavened bread can it not?
If Jesus' body was hurriedly buried because sunset was coming fast, how did the women have time to see where the body was laid, then return home and prepare spices?
Anonymous said:
“Yes and no, you've shown the difference of shabbat and shabbaton in the old testament/Hebrew, but you haven't shown how they're differentiated in the new testament. Can you prove that the usage of sabbaton in the new testament can not apply to both the Hebrew shabbat and shabbaton? If not, the high sabbaton in John can still be referring to a weekday 1st day of unleavened bread can it not?”
Lev 23:24 In the seventh month in the first day of the month, ye shall have a rest [shabbaton] (Jubilee Bible 2000).
Lev 23:24 In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a rest (anapausis)(Brenton, LXX).
Sabbaton is used for the seven-day week and the seventh-day in the NT (for the former in the OT cp. shabbatot (Lev 23:15) with sabu’ot (Nu 28:16; Deut 16:9).
Seeing that the NT writers do not used sabbaton in relation to a holy day then the answer to your question is no, I have no justification for it - the MT and LXX convention stands until proven otherwise.
(For me Jn 19:31 is not referring to a non-seventh day holy day).
Ex 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
Mk 15:42 And now when the even was come [the beginning of the second evening?], because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath [prosabbaton],
“I believe that he arose just after sunset on the morrow after the sabbath when the wave sheaf was cut” (Anonymous 4:12)
Lk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Lk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected - another idomatic use of the third day.
Anonymous above believes, as I do, that Christ rose on the first day of the week, which is the “third day”.
(Technically, if Christ was raised on a Saturday evening, just after sunset, He rose on the fourth evening if He was crucified on a Wednesday afternoon - not on the third day).
Friday, the preparation for the Sabbath, using ANE inclusive reckoning, is the first day - the day Christ was crucified and placed in the tomb.
Luke 23:56 and Mark 16:1 is to be understood in relation to the above.
I am not saying that everything is straight forward, especially considering ANE thought-forms. But weighing the Scriptures, I conclude Christ was crucified on a Friday and rose on a Sunday, first day of the week.
If you conclude differently, hopefully, we can agree to disagree.
As John would say “Time will tell”.
We can definitely agree to disagree but who cares if it was technically the fourth day?
Mar 8:31 - And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Just remember one thing, the timing doesn't start from his death, it starts from his burial. Unless one wants to make the ignorant in my opinion argument that Jerusalem is the heart of the earth. Whether it was just after sunset when he arose, or right at sunset, who cares. Which day does sunset belong to?
Until then we'll go with the equally ignorant imo "time will tell" signature.
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