Dave Pack: Is His "jesus" Returning First To Wadsworth, Ohio Before "It" Returns to Jerusalem Years Later?

Dave Pack is all giddy that his fake "jesus" is coming back to this earth multiple times.  "Its" first coming is specifically for Dave and his little group.  Is Dave trying to tell us that his "jesus" returning to Wadsworth first?  Dave says his creature is NOT coming to Jerusalem first, but to Israel.  Anytime an Armstrongite starts talking about Israel they are not referring to the nation in the Middle East, but are referring to the United States.

Dave surely cannot be referring to England because this is the place where Gerald Flurry will be waiting after he has stolen the Stone of Scone from Scotland and taken it to Westminster Abbey so his "jesus" can come and sit on it.  There is no way Dave will share the spotlight with Gerald Flurry, let alone Westminster Abbey.

Where the Kingdom Begins

The almost universally believed destination of Christ’s Return is Jerusalem. But is this what God’s Word says? Christ will of course ultimately rule from there—countless scriptures show this—but is this where His tiny mustard-seed Kingdom begins? Does His first-century coming provide a clue?

Notice Jesus was born to Mary in “a city of Galilee, named Nazareth” (Luke 1:26)—well north of Jerusalem! Far from a prominent city, Nazareth was scoffed at as a kind of dead-end backwater by Jerusalemites. After Jesus called the apostle Peter, He then called Philip who reported to Nathaniel that they had found Christ. Not convinced, Nathaniel asked, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46). Clearly Christ’s first century coming was to an unexpected place. His arrival shocked and confused the masses: “Others said, this is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?” (7:41). Both Nazareth and Galilee were looked down on by the elites of Jesus’ day.

Christ started His ministry away from Jerusalem—a pattern we will see holds.

The prophet Micah further establishes the Kingdom moves to Jerusalem: “O tower of the flock, the stronghold of the daughter of Zion, unto you shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem” (4:8). It does not say the Kingdom—Christ’s rule long before events in Revelation, after which it picks up again to continue for 1,000 more years—is built in Zion or starts in Zion. (Nor does it say it arrives there from heaven.) Micah says it “comes” there, meaning it was initially somewhere else. Of course it was—in a location called “His place!”

Let’s look at one last description of the Branch in an unusual context. The setting is a great war that afflicts the nations of modern Israel—and the disastrous effect on Jerusalem and the tribe of Judah: “Your men shall fall by the sword, and your mighty in the war. And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground. And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man [the survivors of the war], saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by your name, to take away our reproach” (Isa. 3:25-4:1).

Many other Bible passages detail the war that Isaiah references—where it starts, how it spreads, who it affects, and its unimaginable severity. This is a completely separate event that occurs long, long before Armageddon, but this is not our subject here. Those who think the world is already at war between clashing cultures will soon realize today’s events are essentially NOTHING. Conditions will grow infinitely worse and eventually engulf all the nations of the West. What is coming is beyond imagination. Therefore most will be caught completely off-guard.

Isaiah continues, showing what is happening alongside the war. Let’s read what no one ever sees: “In that day [by this time, when the devastation of war has grown great] shall the Branch [the growing, maturing sprout] of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth…excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel [from the war]. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remains in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem [many will have died]: when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning” (vs. 2-4). Fiery judgment is involved, including the furnace we read about. Read Isaiah 31:9.

By this point the Branch and the Kingdom—having already been on Earth for some time—are flourishing! This is the result of the previously mentioned “Marvelous Work,” covered momentarily. The fruit is called “excellent and comely,” meaning an “ornament.” Christ is called “glorious” and “beautiful.” The latter meaning “in the sense of prominence; splendor (as conspicuous)”—by this time the Kingdom has become the opposite of small and hidden! It is conspicuous and prominent! At this point many millions of people will have come into the Kingdom. Try to make all of this—any of it!—fit the popular narrative! No one is teaching it, yet it is the truth of your Bible visible in PLAIN SIGHT on the pages.

Isaiah 59 brings another perspective of Christ coming to Jerusalem—again, years after His Kingdom began small: “The Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, says the Lord” (vs. 20). Then chapter 60 begins, “Arise, shine; for your light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen [risen, not descended] upon you [remember, from a depressed place, underneath and below view]. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall ariseupon you, and His glory shall be seen upon you” (vs. 1-2). Ponder this. If Jesus started His journey in heaven, He would be described as descending—not rising—on Zion! Do not miss this! Many verses do confirm Jesus comes from heaven to His people. It is several years later that He comes to the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4) and shortly after that to Zion, which is adjacent to it.

Location of Christ’s “Place”

Certain passages further prove Christ relocates to Zion, and these provide clues about which nation He will come to. A prophecy for our time—the latter days—that almost no one talks about is found in Numbers 24. The prophet Balaam foretold, “In the latter days…there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre [Ruler] shall rise out of Israel [not Judah]…Out of Jacob shall come He that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remains of the city [this is Jerusalem]” (vs. 14, 17, 19).

Called the “Star” here, other passages describe Christ as the “Sun of Righteousness” (Mal. 4:2), “Day Star” (II Pet. 1:19) and the “Bright and Morning Star” (Rev. 22:16). He brings His dominion—His rule!—to Jerusalem and Judah from a different modern nation of Jacob (Israel). This cannot be referencing Christ’s birth location because He was born of Judah, and in Judea. Many scriptures covered in my thorough book America and Britain in Prophecy make clear the distinction between Judah and the other 11 tribes of Israel. In fact, the very first reference to “the Jews” in the Bible shows them at war with Israel (II Kgs. 16:1-6)! The modern Mideast nation called Israel is in fact Judah, with the democratic, English-speaking nations of the West identified as the descendants of the rest of the tribes of ancient Israel. Jesus Christ first comes to one of these countries, NOT Judah!

Isaiah 41 contains more proof: “I have raised up One from the north, and He shall come” (vs. 25). “North” means “hidden, dark; used only of the north.” It continues, leaving no doubt this is Jesus Christ: “He shall come upon princes as upon mortar [establishing His authority over all earthly leaders], and as the potter treads clay. Who has declared from the beginning, that we may know?…and I will [at this point] give to Jerusalem One that brings good tidings” (vs. 25-27). Here is a prophecy of Christ being “raised up”—think “growing up”—sprouting from—a northern country(a modern Israelite nation of the West) to defeat His enemies.

This intervention, coupled with good tidings—the true gospel—is absolutely necessary given that horror begins in Jerusalem the very day Christ’s little Kingdom begins.

The Church of God and Its Dystopian Society

The Painful Truth has a new article up on Armstrongism and the Church of God and its vision of things to come and how none of it has ever come to pass and what happens to people caught up in the deception.

Just what is a dystopian society?

• A dystopia is considered a fictional society usually portrayed as existing in a future time, when the conditions of life are extremely dismal due to deprivation, oppression, or terror. 

Sound familiar? Remember the Good News magazine that spewed out the WCG’s view of what God’s utopia would look like? It was heaven on earth. But to enter into this wonderful time (the kingdom) would require you to do unending somersaults of law keeping, tithing, and blindly obeying those who really did not care for you or your family.  

Remember the Plain Truth? Have you ever read Meredith’s or Flurry’s rag? They fill your mind with a hopeless air of despair. 

The propagating of these ideas and others into the minds of their audience that future race wars are coming, or economic collapse is just a few short years away, are an ideology the ACOG’s place into print within their magazines in order to form opinions, prejudice and to mirror church doctrine. This conditions the membership not to jump ship and chance that they will be caught up in the fray when the projected SHTF moment materializes. Anyone who has spent a decade or more in one of these groups can attest that a SHTF moment is always just a few years off.

What the ACOG’s fail to foresee is the results of their endless negative prognosticating. When a human has confidence and optimism, the very joys of life itself stolen from them, you take away the zeal for life, you squelch the will to live. You destroy the individual. What you have left is a shell of the former and a slave which needs to be constantly managed in order to maintain his or her direction forward.  

The Dystopian standard-bearer (an advocate or champion of a particular cause or ideology) often feels trapped and is struggling to escape and questions the existing social, political, or in our case, religious systems. 

The article is well worth the read: Herbert Armstrong's Utopian Society

Dave Pack: 6,000 pages later and Dave Says, "I’m an okay writer who worked hard and you know, kind of got better."

The most magnificent and most educated Church of God leader to ever exist in human history talks about the struggles he goes through to write his booklets.   His brain is such an awesome machine that it constant is coming up with new ideas and concepts.  It is then initially important o him to add those new revelations to his booklets.  It is an awesome task and only he is the one able to do it.

I’ll tell you an interesting story. When I wrote my literature, I found something. It’s just the way my writing is. If I were like Mr. Armstrong, I probably would not need to do this. He was a great writer. I’m an okay writer who worked hard and you know, kind of got better. That’s the way I would describe myself.

I would write a booklet and then I would come back through and make another pass, and I would see certain things I couldn’t see when I wrote it. I would give the pages to my wife and she would install them. Then she would hand me the booklet again, and I would read through it again and see things that time that I couldn’t see because the other things I had installed blinded my ability to see it. I would continue to read it. It was a lot of work, believe me. Those who think the literature…“How did you write it all?…don’t realize I read and reread…and I am not a fast reader…I read and reread, just in editing my literature, anywhere from 10 to 40 times—6,000 pages—so you can do the math; that is just the books and booklets.

I would, eventually, know that the book or booklet was done when I could not read through and find anything else; then I said, “That is it. Print it!” That usually was six or seven times. The longer ones, I would sometimes add more parts. Whenever I did that, I would read all the way through a book. For instance, Anoint Your Eyes started at two hundred (and I think) sixteen pages and ended up 270, because I would always want to add other things to it. That’s a little different situation.

Some of the earlier booklets I went through many more times, because I just wasn’t a very good writer in my opinion, and you know, Why The Restored Church of God? I edited 44 times. That was the first booklet, but I got better, I had to or I would have been dead soon, or my wife would have been……

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Church of God Leaders Turned On Me After Sexual Assault

The Church of God has had a long history of covering up for abusive ministers, leaders and members who have raped, assaulted, stalked and molested adults and children.  Many in the church stick their heads in the sand and say "well this happens everywhere in all churches so why should we be worried about."  While t his is trues, the those abused int eh Church of God face a double whammy.  The church in its outrageous arrogance claims to be the one true apostolic church practicing true Christianity.  How can the "true church" ever have abuse in it?  That is why it has been covered up for decades.  Church leaders have raped and assaulted women.  Others have stalked members to the point they drive countless miles so they can peer into bedroom  windows.  Others have molested children.

This people have been routinely moved to other church areas, left in leadership positions where they abuse again.  Then moved elsewhere.

The abused usually never receive compassion or help.  Most of the time they've been met with hostility, derision and contempt.  How dare they bring negative publicity to the church!  What did you do to cause the to happen?

The latest Journal of the Churches of God has an article from a woman who was sexually assaulted by a church leader and the shame she received from the church leadership.

COG leaders turned on me

The leadership in the Church of God turned on me. I was stonewalled and not spoken to. Except that I was spoken to, by the church leadership, to call me a troublemaker.

When I asked an evangelist who had intimate knowledge of the offender’s past, spanning more than 20 years of adultery and child molestation in the Churches of God, why the leader- ship of God’s church had recommended the offender to me in the first place, he cut me off and told me he was going to stop me right there because I was attacking the Church of God.

He reduced me to tears and I did not talk with him after that.

When I was at the Feast and tried to talk with another leading evangelist, he said no repeatedly.

I could not understand why he would not talk to me. He put his finger in my face and told me he would have deacons physically put me out of the hall and he would disfellowship me if I talked about the offender.

The offender stalks

The offender stalked me by calling and leaving recordings on my phone and via the Internet and E- mails, and calling me and letting me know it was he and then hanging up. 

I had a crisis in faith because I was being punished by the evangelists and leaders in my church.

I developed extreme PTSD. I did not want to live. I repeatedly begged God to end my life because the shame and pain were so overwhelming. 

The offender regularly moves his membership

My marriage, which I was trying to preserve through counseling with the man who turned out to be the sexual offender, ended. The offender went on to become a leader in another Church of God until it finally acknowledged the nature of the offender and put him out.

The offender to this day has a web- site trying to peddle his sermons to unsuspecting women and young girls.

Then she makes a telling comment about how help is better found OUTSIDE the Church of God.

Non-COG hope for survivors

Hope for survivors of pastoral sex- ual abuse can be found at The Hope of Survivors (thehopeofsurvivors.com). This group provides a support system for survivors of sexual abuse by min- isters that is grounded in biblical prin- ciples and not in protecting the abuser or the name of the church the abusing pastor is associated with.

I have found more hope and heal- ing here than in 20 years of ministers and other members stonewalling me and avoiding me like I was the chief whore in an ongoing whorehouse.

Women sexually abused by pastors are usually not wanton women, but women seeking help from their pastor and the pastor taking advantage of their vulnerability through their posi- tion as spiritual leader.

The woman is clearly not in the same position of power as the minister. 

Ron Weinland Releases Third Book Because His "god" Has Failed Yet Again To Destroy The World

The Church of God's 1/2 of the Two Witless Witnesses and convicted felon has written a new book.  Felon Ron Weinland has put into print the visions he received while sitting in his prison cell.  Much like the dreams of Almost Arrested Bob Thiel, Weinland believes these are coming directly from his god.

In his previous book he talked about how angry his god was with the world and was determined to blast it to smithereens.  Then when his god failed to do that by 2008, the Witless Witnesses wrote another book justifying his god having to change his plans because the church was not ready.  Then after Weinland was sent to prison for 3 1/2 prophetic years he realized that his god had yet again failed him so he has had to write a new book.

This book is now the most important thing any human can read.

Prophesy Against the Nations.

This third book is somewhat larger in content than the other two books. It explains why God has mercifully given seven more years of time to the remnant Church, the Church that was scattered, and to this world before Jesus Christ returns to establish the government of God on earth. 

It has already been explained how God had determined prior to 2008 to allow great physical tribulation—without His intervention of mercy—which would have brought incredible destruction above and beyond that of World War III. Before 2008, the world had been judged by God to receive unimaginable destruction that would come from unleashing the FULL destructive power of the Seven Trumpets mentioned in the Seventh Seal of the Book of Revelation. If that had been the case, the world would not have had the same potential to seek for the magnitude of that destruction to be lessened or halted because of such a judgment against it. However, God is now going to allow mankind to receive of His mercy.

This new book tells of God’s revelation to grant great mercy to mankind. That mercy will be extended to those who will listen so that hundreds of millions more will potentially now have opportunity to live on into the soon coming period of the millennial reign of Jesus Christ on this earth. However, unlike the second book, 2008–God’s Final Witness, this new book will not be promoted until very strong Thunders begin to sound and the affects of the First Trumpet are felt. There have been many Thunders strike ever since they first began on 9/11, but nothing of the magnitude of what is yet to occur.  Post Feast Update

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Dave Pack: Jesus Is Returning Multiple Times

The creature that Dave Pack calls "jesus" apparently is going come back multiple times in the next few years.  I guess each of Dave's split personalities has do dream up a separate "jesus" for his latest incarnation of the creature he has invented.

Lacking knowledge of Christ’s multiple comings, many assert He comes and immediately vanquishes all enemies, establishing His Kingdom. Revelation appears to say this, but consider I Corinthians 15:25, which shows something entirely different, saying Christ “must reign, till He has put all enemies under His feet.” Those who would suggest He arrives, reigns for a split second, then annihilates all enemies are simply ignoring this verse, with many others.

But the problem gets even bigger.

The gospel writer Luke records a curious exchange between Jesus and the Pharisees: “When He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered…The kingdom of God comes not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you” (17:20-21). “Within you” is correctly translated “in your midst”—so Christ meant that just His presence can signal the Kingdom’s presence. He was not saying God’s Kingdom was within leaders He called hypocrites, serpents and fools! The Pharisees demanded knowledge of the Kingdom’s arrival because they anticipated a Messiah who would sweep the Romans away and set up a world government—with themselves administering it! It is evident that Jesus had nothing like that in mind. Notice the Kingdom was to arrive “without observation.” The meaning of the Greek is without “inspection” or “ocular evidence.” Ocular relates to the eyes. So Christ said God’s Kingdom arrives in some unseen way.

This coming is distinct from both Haggai and Revelation, which plainly describe all nations looking for—and AT!—Christ’s appearing. Jesus was not confused about His own coming, and would have to make sure we were not either. He does this.

Understand. Christ’s initial coming has nothing to do with the false Protestant belief that Christ secretly “raptures” His servants to heaven. Nowhere does God’s Word say Jesus takes Christians back to heaven with Him. (Many verses prove this.) You will see plain passages showing He establishes God’s Kingdom on Earth, using servants that are here. This will become clear.

Bob Thiel, Chief Hypocrite and Self Appointed Cult Leader Attacks Gavin Rumney

Earlier today Gavin Rumney made an announcement that he was discontinuing the Ambassador Watch blog, that he has faithfully run for many years documenting the dissolution of the Church of God into hundreds and hundreds of irrelevant little splinter personality groups.

A Farewell to Arms

This is likely, highly likely, to be the final Ambassador Watch or Otagosh posting. Those who know me as more than a cantankerous blogger also know that I've been fighting, without great success, a serious health situation. In the time I have left there are clearly other priorities, and I commend Gary's blog as a great place to keep "in the loop".

I guess I want to say that there's very little I regret. If I've horribly offended anyone unjustly, I apologize. There are a lot of good people in the COGs, battling on, as we all do, according to our best insights. The blogs will stay up, for what they're worth, even if only curiosity value.

Special thanks to everyone who has engaged in creative conversation here.

Gavin.

It did not take long before Almost Arrested Doubly Cursed Elisha Elijah Joshua Amos Bob Thiel of the improperly named "continuing" Church of God, had to start running off at the mouth.  Almost Arrested Thiel is not happy that Gavin is leaving his blog up for archival purposes.  Ambassador Watch documented the rapid decline of the Worldwide Church of God into hundreds and hundreds of irrelevant and meaningless little personality cults.

Gavin was particularly disturbed by the outright lies and deception of Bob Thiel and his self justification of his self appointment to be a splinter cult leader, with fake diploma mill Phd's and all.  If Thiel had been forthright and honest about what his degrees are in, the name of the granting "university" and his theological education, then maybe Gavin and the rest of us would have cut him some slack.  Thiel however does not care.  It is easier to deceive 1,997 Africans than it is to be honest, forthright and accountable.

The self-appointed false minister Thiel writes:

Gavin Rumney, the webmaster at the Ambassador Watch site (an anti-Church of God website), has once again decided to quit his site:

It is too bad that his blog will stay up. As far as Gary’s blog, that is a reference to the anti-COG site Banned by HWA.

Anyway, Gavin, in my view, had a lot more integrity years ago. But after he broke a promise he had made to me, and I called him out on it, he turned more towards hate. His promotion of the Banned by HWAsite is a further example of that.

Anyway, Gavin Rumney has posted enough untrue comments/innuendoes about me and various others that he should pull down what he has. 

Thiel is a liar.  Gavin has posted nothing untrue about the self-appointed false prophet.  That is a bitter pill for the apostate liar to handle.

Bitter Bob then slings this zinger:

Gavin Rumney as well as others running anti-COG sites have hated true Christians without cause.

I can state as 100% fact that Bob Thiel is NOT a "true" Christian.  He is NOT ordained by God, was never set apart by God to start a church, did not receive visions of God in a dream and is a professional Judizer, just like James Malm.

True Christians in any church are never bothered by accusations or questions about their beliefs or faith.  Only self appointed little men who set themselves up as grandiose men of authority or as dictators of their little groups get perturbed and angry when others question their motives and teachings.

Bob Thiel rejects everything about what Jesus did and accomplished.  He would rather bastardize and worship the law more than follow Jesus. Regardless of  how much Thiel may write or say the name Jesus or Christ, the man does not know him at all!  That is a FACT!

Thiel continues with this broad lying accusation:

I wish those who support the anti-COG websites would realize that those truly in the Church of God are not treating them improperly.  Yet, they hate us.

NO ONE on ANY of the anti-COG sites hates the members in the various groups.  What we do HATE are the lairs and graceless pissants that make the lives of their members a living hell.  These men, like YOU Bob Thiel, preach hearsay, promote false doctrines, and have self appointed themselves are church "leaders."  No matter now much you wave your thick Bible in front of your crooked bookcases or flowery curtains, it does not make you a man of God.  Your message is one of enslavement and not of grace.  Any message without Jesus is worthless and thusly your message is worthless and dangerous to honest seekers.

Almost Arrested Elijah Thiel then writes:

The Bible warns against being an accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10), and bearers of false witness (Exodus 20:16).

You are NOT "brethren" to any that are followers of Jesus.  You are exactly what Jesus warned his followers  about:

Matthew 7:15-20The Message (MSG)

15-20 “Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don’t be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned. 

Even more damning are these words of Jesus:

Matthew 24:4-8The Message (MSG)

4-8 Jesus said, “Watch out for doomsday deceivers. Many leaders are going to show up with forged identities, claiming, ‘I am Christ, the Messiah.’ They will deceive a lot of people. When reports come in of wars and rumored wars, keep your head and don’t panic. This is routine history; this is no sign of the end. Nation will fight nation and ruler fight ruler, over and over. Famines and earthquakes will occur in various places. This is nothing compared to what is coming. 

Preaching endless drivel about end time prophecy, Petra , Mayans, Catholic myths and other outright lies makes you one of the "doomsday deceivers."

Then Thiel makes another false accusation:

Sadly, because many involved with the anti-COG websites do not have a real love of the truth, they do not seem to care about their false assertions and conclusions.

Actually we do have a love for the truth, but NOT for the lies of Armstrongism and its many different bastardizations.  Truth cannot be found in the improperly named "continuing" Church of God.

Elisha Elijah Thiel ends with this:

The anti-COG websites often cause offense to ones getting interested in the truth.  Jesus said:

6 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes! (Matthew 18:6-7)

Gavin Rumney and several others at the anti-COG websites remain in my prayers.

Hallelujah that those that might be interested in a COG splinter cult might actually be turned away by our blogs and web sites!  If so, then we have actually served a purpose!  One life saved is one less life immersed in the quagmire of pharisaical legalistic bullshit that make up the current harlots daughters of the mother church.

Please see the following sites that expose the lies of Bob Thiel and the other false ministers of the Church of God:

As Bereans Did
Ambassador Watch
Ambassador Files
The Painful Truth
Exit and Support
False Prophet Ron Weinland
The Plain Truth About Malachi's Message and That Prophet 
Roderick C Meredith Crimes
Washed in Grace
Living Armstrongism