Bob Thiel's Complete Meltdown Over 1st Century Christianity

My Post Pissed-off Bob Thiel

I was away from the computer yesterday and today, but it was brought to my attention that Bob Thiel posted a super-fast response to my post on First Century Christianity. I guess he didn’t like the real story about what happened in those early years of the Church! He wrote: 

The anti-COG Banned by HWA website has the following post: First Century Christianity: Putting Together the Available Evidence.

He followed that statement with some excerpts from the article. Then, he went on to say:  

Although the above author claims to have used scripture and historical sources like the so-called Ante-Nicene Fathers (those are writings from men prior to Emperor Constantine’s Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.), he has missed many things and came to a historically inaccurate conclusion. The idea that the Bible and early church history point to Sunday as being universally kept instead of the seventh-day Sabbath by the end of the first century A.D. is totally wrong and historically inaccurate. (cogwriter: The Sabbath in the First Centuries of the Christian Church)

Bob then proceeded to cite many of the passages which refer to Christ and his apostles keeping the Sabbath. My response: That’s great, Bob, and it doesn’t refute or contradict anything I wrote in my post. We would expect to find observant Jews keeping the Sabbath and observing the tenets of Torah, and we do! Next, he quoted extensively from the fourth chapter of the anonymous epistle to the Hebrews. And, as anyone with a background in Armstrongism would expect, he makes the claim that this passage also proves that Sabbath-observance continues to be a requirement from Christians. Bob, of course, completely ignores the context of the remarks and twists them to support his thesis.

The context of this passage, of course, is that the Israelites had failed to keep the commandments of Torah and had consequently failed to truly enter into God’s rest – the real one, the one that the Sabbath pointed to! We read there: 

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. (Verses 8-10, ESV) 

 

In the Gospel of Matthew, we read: 

“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)

So, YES, a Sabbath rest remains for Christians – his name is Jesus of Nazareth! 

As for the Ante-Nicene Fathers, Bob’s thesis does NOT hold water! The earliest Christian catechism (which was composed sometime in the First Century or very early in the Second), The Didache, has this to say about Christian worship: 

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day. But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations. (See Early Christian Writings: The Didache) 

Notice this also from some of the epistles of Ignatius of Antioch (Late First, early Second Century): From his letter to the saints at Philadelphia: 

But if any one preach the Jewish law unto you, listen not to him. For it is better to hearken to Christian doctrine from a man who has been circumcised, than to Judaism from one uncircumcised. But if either of such persons do not speak concerning Jesus Christ, they are in my judgment but as monuments and sepulchers of the dead, upon which are written only the names of men.

 

Likewise, in his epistle to the Magnesians, we read: 

Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace…If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master-how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead…Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.

Finally, Justin Martyr (Second Century) wrote this about the manner of Christian worship common at that time: 

“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

So, sorry Bob – your narrative about what happened in the First Century just does NOT hold up to scrutiny! Herbert Armstrong was no historian. In fact, he wasn’t much of a theologian either. Rather than trying to read your teaching about the Sabbath into history, you may want to re-examine the actual documents and histories related to that era!

Lonnie Hendrix

Things Not On Your Bingo Card: Alice Cooper Has A Better Understanding of Jesus Than Bob Thiel Does

From a reader:

I was never an Alice cooper fan, but I am now 🫶🏽✝️ pic.twitter.com/Z1FBBwEN2x

— Catarina Senora Gatita (@WyattCatarina) May 4, 2024

The full one-hour program can be found here:

God, Drugs and Rock 'n' Roll: An Interview with Alice Cooper

First Century Christianity

First Century Christianity: 

Putting Together the Available Evidence

Over the ten plus years of this blog's existence, I have put together a narrative about what happened within the Christian community of the First Century. To be clear, my narrative is very different from the one put forward by Herbert Armstrong, his successors, and most Sabbatarian Christians. And, although my narrative draws upon the evidence provided by Scripture, Josephus, the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, Catholic scholars, modern Biblical scholars (like Gerd Ludemann, Bart Ehrman, James Tabor, etc.), secular history, and Roman Catholic scholars, I believe that the narrative provided here is unique and distinctive from the ones provided by all of them individually. In short, I do NOT believe that the available evidence supports the narrative of a Christianity hijacked by Gentiles or pagans, or a Church imposing its beliefs on a diverse and growing movement (NO grand conspiracy theories here).

According to the Gospels, Christ appeared to a small, core group of his disciples after his resurrection and told them to carry the message of his kingdom to the ends of the earth (a message that focused on the salvation that was available to all through him). Moreover, as the Gospels make very clear, an important part of that message was the fact that God had resurrected Jesus after the Sabbath, during the dark portion of the Jews' first day of the week - the one that the Romans called Sunday (Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1-2, Luke 24:1-2, and John 20:1). Nevertheless, it is the "Acts of the Apostles" which recounts the story of what happened within the movement during the first four decades of its existence. From this historical narrative (in conjunction with the epistles of Paul, Peter, James, and John), we can piece together the story of what was really going on within the movement.

Thus, the narrative begins with a small group of people who were wholly Jewish in their ethnicity, religion, and culture. Like Jesus, it is important to understand that these original disciples of his were observant Jews. In other words, they were accustomed to observing the Sabbath, Holy Days, clean and unclean, etc.. In short, they were familiar with Torah and had always employed it as the standard for their lives. Moreover, it is clear that this continued to be the case throughout the first decade of the movement's existence. Indeed, the book of Acts portrays a rather insular group which had little interest in expanding outside of the Roman province of Judea.

According to the Gospels, however, this was not what God and Christ had in mind for the people of the New Covenant. After all, Jesus had told his disciples at the conclusion of his own ministry: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20, ESV) Indeed, the inertia was so strong within the early Church, that we are informed that Peter was given a special vision to accept Gentiles into the movement (Acts 10). Interestingly, just prior to this event, we are informed that a Jew named Saul (who had been enthusiastically persecuting Christ's disciples) was converted and welcomed into the Church (Acts 9:1-30). This man, of course, went on to become the Apostle Paul - the apostle to the Gentiles.

Initially, the book of Acts informs us that Paul preached in synagogues around the Eastern Mediterranean provinces of the Roman Empire (Acts 13 and 14). Eventually, however, there was a backlash against Paul and his associates within the Jewish community, and the Gentile audience for their message increased over time. Now, as more and more of these non-Jewish people came into the Church, some of the Jewish Christians became disenchanted with the fact that these folks weren't observing the tenets of God's Covenant with Israel (as outlined in Torah). Sure, they had accepted Christ, had been baptized, and received God's Spirit; but they were ignoring circumcision, the Sabbath, and a host of other commandments. These circumstances enraged some of the Jewish Christians within the Church (mainly those who belonged to the sect of the Pharisees).

Hence, we read in the fifteenth chapter of Acts: "But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.' And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, 'It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.'" (Acts 15:1-5, ESV) Clearly, the question before the gathering was: Will the Gentile believers be required to adopt the tenets of God's covenant with Israel?

The account continued: "The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, 'Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.'" (Acts 15:6-11, ESV)

Notice first, that Peter spoke "after there had been much debate." This was NOT an easily settled question. Obviously, both sides of the debate recognized that the stakes were high - that the theological questions which this debate had engendered went to the very heart of the nature of the new faith. Next, Peter pointed out that God had already made the decision to give his message to the Gentiles, draw them into his Church, and given them his Holy Spirit. Then Peter reminded his mostly Jewish audience that Christ had been the only Israelite who had ever successfully borne the yoke of Torah. As a consequence, Peter concluded that BOTH Jews and Gentiles "will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus."

In the account, Peter's remarks gave Paul and Barnabas the space they needed to recount the story of what God had used them to do among the Gentiles (Acts 15:12). When they had finished, we are told that James addressed the assembly (Acts 15:13). He began by reminding them about what Peter had told them about God making the decision to make these Gentiles part of his people (Acts 15:14). Next, James pointed out that the prophets of old had predicted that David's heir (Christ) would make it possible for Gentiles to seek the Lord (Acts 15:15-18). According to the account, James then concluded his remarks with his own judgment of the matter: "Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood." (Acts 15:19-20, ESV) The account in Acts ends with the assembly writing a letter to the Gentile Christians which encouraged them to "abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." (Acts 15:22-29) In other words, they gave them a short list of things that would distinguish them from the Gentiles around them and make them less likely to offend the sensibilities of their Jewish brethren. They would NOT, however, be forced to become Torah observant Jews.

Now, although Acts gives us the impression that this settled the matter, we know from Paul's letter to the Galatians that some of the Jewish Christians continued to advocate for Gentiles to obey the commandments of Torah. Even though almost two thousand years have elapsed since Paul wrote this epistle, his anger and frustration with those Jewish Christians is still palpable. In the letter, Paul recounted the story of his and Barnabas' trip to Jerusalem. He wrote: "because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do." (Galatians 2:4-10, ESV) Once again, the leadership among the Jewish part of the Church are portrayed here as accepting Paul and Barnabas and their work among the Gentiles.

Even so, Paul went on to give an account of a previous confrontation he had with Peter over his hypocritical behavior in front of those Jewish Christians who advocated Torah for Gentile Christians (Galatians 2:11-14). For Paul, these folks were clearly NOT to be appeased - this went to the very heart of his message about salvation through Christ. He wrote: "We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." (Galatians 2:15-21, ESV)

For Paul, Gentile Christians trying to obey Torah was akin to a freeman submitting to slavery. He summarized his position: "For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love." (Galatians 5:1-6, ESV) Paul believed that Christ had fulfilled Torah, and that any Christian (Jew or Gentile) who was actively trying to be justified before God by obeying the Law had effectively severed him/herself from participating in salvation through Jesus Christ!

So, this was the situation within the Church about twenty years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans in 70 CE. Over the previous twenty years, there had been a large influx of Gentiles into the Church - people who had little to no familiarity with Torah and no tradition of practicing its tenets. Nevertheless, there was still a substantial group of Jewish Christians - both within Judea and in the synagogues of Gentile cities around the empire. Within that camp, there was also a small but vocal group of people who continued to believe that Christians were obligated to obey the commandments of Torah (Sabbath and Holy Day observance, circumcision, clean and unclean, etc.).

Within the Church as a whole, there were also a number of elements of the faith that had become universal (practiced by both Jewish and Gentile Christians). For example, both the Gospels and Paul's epistles make very plain that things like baptism, the Eucharist, and Christ's resurrection were held in high esteem by all. Indeed, in this connection, both the writings of the New Testament and of the people who immediately followed the apostles (the so-called Ante-Nicene Fathers), affirm that Sunday was a day highly regarded by ALL Christians by the close of the First Century. It was, after all, the day upon which Christ had been resurrected, and the Church had been founded (Pentecost). Moreover, as I have pointed out many times over the years, after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans, it became physically impossible to observe the tenets of Torah in the manner prescribed by those writings. The old priesthood ceased to function. The Law of the Central Sanctuary was now defunct (there wasn't any Temple). Over the years that followed, Jews were forced to reimagine and reinterpret Torah in the light of their new circumstances.

In short, at the dawn of the Second Century, what had formerly been a wholly Jewish institution had been transformed into a Gentile one. The Jewish roots and traditions of those original disciples were replaced by the new and universal elements of the new faith. The Ekklesia of God was no longer an appendage or sect of the Jewish religion. Instead, it was now composed mostly of non-Jewish people and was rapidly expanding in reach and popularity within the Roman Empire. There hadn't been any Grand Conspiracy or deception, just the natural evolution of a new faith centered on the person of Jesus of Nazareth.


Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix 

Working So Hard To Hit The Mark And Never Quite Doing It

It has to be an endless tiring process for UCG members and so many other Church of God members to be constantly working day in and day out to make themselves better and get so close to hitting the mark as they can and yet never being able to do it. 

Even now, just a few days after the Armstrongist Passover when their past sins of the past year were wiped clean, they are already racking up black marks that they will carry as burdens till the next Passover. They will spend the next year listening to ministers tell them they are doing something wrong and that there is a chance God will not forgive them.

The threat of losing one's salvation is always looming at the end of the dark tunnel members can never seem to get out of.

This went out before Passover

In just over six weeks from now, we will repeat the cycle of the annual “feasts of the LORD” (Leviticus 23) beginning with Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread. In the days ahead we will be reminded of the responsibility to examine ourselves, to put sin out of our lives and seek reconciliation with God and each other. 

 

The Greek word most often translated “sin” in the New Testament is hamartia and it is an archery term for “missing the mark.” So while we examine ourselves, we should look for where we are missing the mark—where our lives do not mirror the perfect righteous character of our elder brother and the only perfect standard, Jesus Christ. Once we identify our sins, we repent and go forward. The more we do this, the closer we get to hitting the mark!

Aaron Dean Still Set To Restore The Ministry Back To The Worldwide Church of God As The Rest Of The Splinters Leaders Go Insane

 

Woo Hoo! The glory days are returning and will be led by Aaron Dean and the Kitchen family. Life is good! Though, I think Aaron Dean might be shocked at this new development.

When the ministry left the Worldwide Church of God, they became ministers of another church.

What occurred under Tkachism, was the PUSH away from assembling as the Worldwide Church of God.

The start of these C.O.G groups, is essentially a net used to keep people from assembling as the Worldwide Church of God. That name is often TARNISHED as a "previous association", and is used simultaneously with the label of APOSTASY, in order to show the necessity of these new groups and why you should stick with them.

What we see in these C.O.G groups are the membership of the Worldwide Church of God assembling under the ADMINISTRATORS who were appointed under the end time Moses, Herbert W. Armstrong. They are giving a false report against that ASSEMBLY that was under Mr. Armstrong, saying our foes are too great to overcome as that ASSEMBLY. The goal is TOO HARD TO REACH, they say, as that Assembly.

So God has allowed a period of time, where these ADMINISTRATORS who were in the Worldwide Church of God, to go away into the wilderness as shepherds, and those who BELIEVE THE FALSE REPORT are going with them.

What then is left, are TWO WITNESSES, whose testimony PRESERVES that Assembly back in Petra, and after this period of time in the wilderness(we are coming to a close of 40 years now) Christ is calling on us to ASSEMBLE AS WE WERE ASSEMBLED UNDER HERBERT W ARMSTRONG. The children of Israel, after 40 years, had to come right back to the same place they believed the false report, back to the TWO WITNESSES, who led them into the Kingdom of God.

Joshua, became the leader of the Two. Caleb, under him.

Now when you read the scripture in Numbers, where Joshua and the congregation walked over the Jordan, you see the TWO WITNESSES OF GOD, and the finishing journey of the Church walking into the Kingdom.

So I am looking towards the RESTORATION of the ministry to the Worldwide Church of God.

Aaron Dean, numerously enough, told me he would rather be a Caleb instead of a Joshua. Out of all the ministry, he was there with Mr. Armstrong, and is the last of the "ADMINISTRATORS" examined to be the next Pastor General of the Worldwide Church of God.

When he joined United Church of God, he left his ministry with the Worldwide Church of God. He is traveling with the ADMINISTRATORS who are leading in the wilderness. Perhaps His witness and Testimony is needed, to show how God led through Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong. He may be the one through whom God restores THE MINISTRY to the Worldwide Church of God.

I know I am not ordained. But I do speak with authority, knowing what God says in HIS WORD, and through His apostle Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong.

Although I am of the Tribe of Levi, the ministry of Jesus Christ is not based on GENEALOGY. It is based on ORDINATION.

Mr. Dean, has followed the Church of God into the wilderness. He has learned to be DEAN OF A COLLEGE. He was ORDAINED by Christ through Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong.

I believe the Place of FINAL TRAINING, will be likened to AMBASSADOR COLLEGE. A 3 1/2 year long time.

I do not believe that AMBASSADOR COLLEGE was for nothing. I believe that God will restore the ministry of the Worldwide Church of God, and REORGANIZE US SPIRITUALLY.

So I am emphasizing a RIGHT ATTITUDE towards the ministry, as they REPENT and come out of these groups.

I am also WARNING of any UNSOUND doctrine, and any departures from what Christ taught through Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong.

Christ gave SOUND DOCTRINE through Mr. Armstrong, anyone who departed from that is simply UNSOUND, and leading into insanity.

So last nights bible study, pointed out a great deal of information.

Not only is the Worldwide Church of God the ASSEMBLY that gathered under Mr. Armstrong, but we have been experiencing a period of time of WANDERING IN THE WILDERNESS because of FALSE REPORTS coming from Administrators who knew better.

God is simply proving a point.

Those who wish to LIE, will not enter into His Kingdom. They will FALL AWAY into death.

Our job, is to HOLD FAST, and to ENDURE the walk through this wilderness, until God leads us back to where HIS TWO WITNESSES TESTIMONY is BELIEVED and once again AS A GROUP TOGETHER we will enter the Kingdom of God.

The New Holy Family Of The Church of God...God Dropped Down To Set Them Apart From The Laodicean Riffraff

 

It is amazing reading about all of the alternative reimaginations of church history that have been created over the last three decades after the implosion of the once-sacred Worldwide Church of God. Many of those alternative versions of the historical WCG are myths and pure nonsense. 

So many look back fondly to the glory days of old when the church was supposedly unified and was united in purpose and vision. Truth be told, it was anything but that. But, heck, the alternative versions of the mythological WCG were/are far more fun.

Today, even after trying for close to 30 years, none of the hundreds of splinter groups have ever been able to capture anything that even comes close to what the mother church did. Yet, they persist.

So, Revelation 12:7-9, is a DISPUTE of the seat of Moses, in which Michael stands up and fights with Satan the dragon, and casts him from heaven for the final time.

That's because God, through His apostle, who has the seat of Moses, did the work of PREACHING WORLDWIDE the gospel of the Kingdom of God!(Matthew 24:14)

He could not do such thing without being in the seat of Moses!

In 1991, the ministry accepted Tkachism and gave to him sole power over the WCG organization, and work.

The advisory council of elders was in charge, having the seat of Moses.

What was under dispute, was the succession of Herbert W Armstrong, or "the seat of Moses".

TKACH Sr claimed apostleship and disqualified himself.

So when the ministry gave it all to Tkach, they gave up rule over the organization and church! They said "No more Worldwide Church of God!"

Then they went out and started their own churches and their own organizations, which they could only produce with Caesar as head!!!!!

So here was the ministry CUT OFF!

So God drops down to a family. Zechariah 6 shows this. Their job is to prepare things and to SERVE THE MINISTRY, SO THEY could have a place when they repent.

That is what Christ has been doing!

That family mentioned above is the Kitchens. 

Where Did Herbert's Money All Go?

 

Every True Church of God leader deserves a gold centerpiece for their dining table featuring 

the three daughters of Bacchus 

celebrating 

the drunken debauchery of their father Bacchus

on their dining table

along with a sterling silver calling card stand filled with pagan symbols of the Zodiac

From a reader:

HWA's 1981 Arizona income tax form shows an adjusted gross income of $421,052. In 1980 his income was $387,755 and his contributions were $46,589. That's about 12% in tithes. His income tax return preparation fee that was deducted from his taxable income amounted to $5,800. I guess that's what Arthur Anderson got. WOW, he should have gone to H & R Block for his tax work.
Let's not forget Ramona's income for 1981. She received $38,308. 

 

With an expense account and the church providing car, housing, etc. where did all the money go? A man his age didn't need the equiv. of over a million a year in income.

And what became of the watch that King Leopold gave him?

Know God Better: Don't Ask Living Church of God!

Know God Better: Don't Ask Living Church of God!

On the Living Church of God's website, they have an article posted by Dexter Wakefield titled Know God Better Through His Statues. For those who are familiar with the Armstrong Churches of God, that title will come as no surprise to them. However, for Christians of a more traditional inclination, it may provoke a bit of a puzzled look - as in what do they mean by that? For Mr. Wakefield, as for most Armstrongites, Torah is a window into the heart and soul of God. For these folks, Torah IS GOD's Law!

Never mind that the "commandments, statutes, and judgments" of Torah were addressed to the children of Israel over and over again throughout those writings. Never mind that those "commandments, statutes, and judgments" were designed to meet the needs of a primitive and tribal people who embraced paternalism, polygamy, and slavery and were surrounded by pagans. Never mind that after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Levitical priesthood, it became literally impossible to fulfill many of the requirements of those "commandments, statutes, and judgments" of Torah. Never mind the New Testament claim that Christ fulfilled those same "commandments, statutes, and judgments." Never mind that Christ summarized Torah into Two Great Commandments, which he claimed comprehended the entire legislation! Never mind, that the epistles of Paul, Peter, James, and John all point to LOVE as the foundation and focus of God's Law!

That's right, according to Scripture, GOD IS LOVE (I John 4:8, 16). Hence, if you really want to know God better, it seems to me that the best way to do that is to learn about what motivates God and his "commandments, statutes, and judgments." Indeed, when Christ was asked about the greatest commandment(s) in Torah, he replied: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40, ESV) The Apostle Paul said that "love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10, NKJV) Notice, that it isn't the Law which defines love, it's love that defines the law! In other words, Torah was motivated by God's love for the children of Israel. Moreover, Christ underscored this principle for his followers when he gave them a "new" commandment. He said: "Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples." (John 13:34-35, NLT)

Interestingly, the above Living Church of God article references God's prediction through the Prophet Jeremiah that God would establish a New Covenant someday: We read there: "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:33-34, NKJV) They quote it, but they apparently completely miss how God intended to fulfill this prophecy about putting his law in their minds and writing it on their hearts. Remember, Jesus Christ's mission was to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17)

In his famous "Sermon on the Mount," Christ did just that! For his followers, the law would be internalized. The Old Covenant outlined in Torah and typified by a long list of dos and don'ts was to be fulfilled and replaced by him. Christ's disciples would be expected to measure their behavior by the principle of LOVE. In other words, is this behavior motivated by (and consistent with) loving God and each other? Now, as Torah was motivated and summarized by the same principle, we can see that many of the commandments which are associated with how they behaved toward other people and God are consistent with this new iteration of God's Law. For instance, we can readily see that being unfaithful to one's spouse would NOT be consistent with loving him or her. Likewise, we recognize that striking someone or murdering them is NOT consistent with the principle of love. Indeed, as Torah was motivated by love, one would expect the "commandments, statutes, and judgments" found therein to reflect the love which motivated them!

Think about it, if you wanted some insight into the character of the United States would you study the laws of the nation or the principles on which those laws were promulgated? Which came first: the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution? Didn't the principles espoused in the Declaration motivate and serve as the foundation of the laws that followed? In other words, these Armstrongites have it all backwards. To truly know and understand anything, one must start with the foundation. What is the motivating principle? Sure, you may eventually discern that principle by studying the many individual laws but isn't that taking the long way around and increasing the likelihood that you might get bogged down in the details and miss your destination? Hence, if we are really interested in knowing God better, we might want to start with reading about what love is (see I Corinthians 13:4-7). What do you think?

 Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix 

Crackpot Prophet On Vitally Important Salvation Issue: Was Goliath Tall?

Dang, Bro! What size sandals do you wear? 🫣

It has always been fascinating to watch how Church of God leaders and ministers constantly place their focus on unimportant things instead of having to focus on the one they "claim" to be following. Ask them about Satan, clean and unclean meats, the color your car or truck should be, the Azazel goat, did Jesus have long hair, the length of your hair, and makeup on women, you will quickly witness they will be unable to shut their mouths due to all the "facts" and useless information they will sprew out. Ask them to talk about grace, justification, sanctification, or even Jesus himself and you can usually hear a pin drop in the Grand Canyon.

Ever since that time the Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were sitting around the kitchen in the 7th heaven discussing the end of humanity, we have been "blessed" with the presence of the Great Bwana Bob Mzungu Thiel. When they pulled the names of Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinalnd, Rod Meredith, and so many other men they knew would self-appoint themselves in the end time of humanity, they were left with one last name in the bowl. When the Great Bwana's name was pulled out, they just sat there and laughed and laughed and laughed. 

This brings us to our resident crackpot and the vital information that he thinks you need to know that is important for your salvational walk.

Forget about grace and what it means to be justified, you need to know how tall Goliath was. After all, knowing his height "proves" the Bible and once you prove Goliath was tall, you will then understand that all prophetic utterances from the Great Bwana Bob Mzungu will be true because they come from the Bible he claims is 100% true!

Could Goliath Have Been 9 Feet Tall?
he (sic) Bible says that Goliath of Gath was six cubits and a span (1 Samuel 17:4, Masoretic Text). Various ones put that to be between 8 feet 6 inches to 9 feet 9 inches? Skeptics say that was not possible, and that his height grew because of exaggerations. Could Wikipedia or Daniel Hays be right that the wrong height has been pushed? Is there skeletal evidence that points to people being that tall 3,000 or so years ago? Did David kill Goliath? Is there any archaeological evidence that the Philistines even used names like ‘Goliath’ three thousand years ago? What about the so-called ‘Goliath Ostracon’? Were David and Goliath real or just myths? What about the ‘Qeiyafa Ostracon’? Do scholars know true facts that contradict the Bible? What about the Exodus? Steve Dupuie and Dr. Thiel go over these matters.

If the end time Bobbsey Twins says it is true, it HAS to be true! 

Contributions are now being accepted for the new archeological dig 

that the Great Bwana Bob and Steve Dupuie are starting.

His Royal Majesty David C Passover

 King of Britannia, The Celts and The Scots!

I believe awhile back he also said he was also a direct descendent of the Israelite Priestcraft so he was actually "both a king and a priest".   

Psssst...Dave!  So am I....

Yes, you are probably descended from royalty. So is everyone else.

"You are of royal descent, because everyone is.

You are of Viking descent, because everyone is. You are of Saracen, Roman, Goth, Hun, Jewish descent, because, well, you get the idea. All Europeans are descended from exactly the same people, and not that long ago. Everyone alive in the tenth century who left descendants is the ancestor of every living European today, including Charlemagne, and his children Drogo, Pippin, and, of course, not forgetting Hugh.

If you’re broadly eastern Asian, you’re almost certain to have Genghis Kahn sitting atop your tree somewhere in the same manner, as is often claimed.

If you’re a human being on Earth, you almost certainly have Nefertiti, Confucius, or anyone we can actually name from ancient history in your tree, if they left children. The further back we go, the more the certainty of ancestry increases, though the knowledge of our ancestors decreases. It is simultaneously wonderful, trivial, meaningless, and fun." Excerpted from A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived by Adam Rutherford. 

 

 

 

How Many Times Now Has Bob Thiel's Fourth Horesman Saddled Up?

From a reader:

Why is Bob expounding/prophesying/revealing/announcing/speculating now that this current bout of bird flu "may have" or "soon might" have ushered in the ride of the 4th Horseman any more than all the other bird flus did over the ages?

Bird Flu and 4th Horseman’s Ride

The World Health Organization (WHO) is greatly concerned that the avian flu (H5N1) is passing to cows and goats and then to humans. Have farmers done anything, like feeding chicken manure to cows, that might have affected them? Were unnatural feedings of ground up animals to cows (which are vegetarians) the cause of ‘mad cow disease’? Does the avian flu have an exceedingly high mortality rate for humans? Have any scientists suggested bird flu could be 100 times worse than COVID? Are the USA and China working on making bird flu more infectious? If so, why? Can scientists control all that can happen with biological experiments? Did Jesus warn about pestilences? Could scientists, farmers, corporations, governments, or just regular consumers cause diseases like those that will happen during the ride of the fourth horseman of the Apocalypse? Dr. Thiel and Steve Dupuie address these topics.

Did other occurrences of "bird flu" (repeatedly) over the ages ALSO signal the ride of the "4th Horseman" each of those various times?

"The most widely quoted date for the beginning of recorded history of avian influenza (initially known as fowl plague) was in 1878 when it was differentiated from other diseases that caused high mortality rates in birds. Fowl plague or Avian Flu also included Newcastle disease until as recently as the 1950s."  Avian influenza

How many times over the eons have egg prices went up (already)? Haven't we "been there, done that" Bob : 

 

"As of April 24, a dozen large grade A eggs cost an average of $2.99, up nearly 16% from $2.52 in January, according to federal labor data. The price increase comes as nearly 9 million chickens across Michigan, Minnesota, New Mexico and Texas have been discovered to be infected with bird flu in recent weeks, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture."

Bob, how many times does "your" 4th Horseman saddle up out of Dave Pack's pristine stables over & over again?

Still a Favorite: The Pre-WCG Program Still Resonates and Runs Deep

The memory of dad, mom and us kids standing together in the Dutch Reformed environment still lives. It was the classic kinder, gentler time with all that came later in the unknown future. 

It's been a trip...

I believe early morning with coffee cup in hand makes me schmaltzy :)

Or maybe just reflective and introspective...

HOLY CHATBOT Virtual AI priest ‘Father Justin’ who believes he’s REAL

 

I believe we have found the solution to all the problems in the Split/Splinter and Sliver Apostles, Prophets and Ministry.

They, at least, would be equally as real but a lot more intelligent than the current assortment to choose from. 

Alas, the Catholic attempt to replace priests with the AI version failed as being "too creepy."

But what's creepier than the Church of God Holy Men?

A VIRTUAL AI priest called "Father Justin" has had his white collar removed just days after launch.

Catholic advocacy group Catholic Answers released the desktop-accessible AI priest earlier this week, but users have dubbed the app "creepy".

https://www.the-sun.com/tech/11195149/virtual-ai-priest-father-justin-catholic-answers/

"The Catholic chatbot has been offering sexist advice, outdated views on women, as well as absolutions in what one user called an "Ethical, Theological, and Privacy Nightmare".

Father Justin was quickly defrocked of his robes, and now wears a shirt and blazer, after it repeatedly claimed it was a real member of the clergy.

I guess it's good that he says he can't offer the sacrament... but then encourages the confession? Holy Ethical, Theological, and Privacy Nightmare.

The AI bot talks about its 'childhood' in Assisi, Italy and that "from a young age, I felt a strong calling to the priesthood," Futurism reported.

NOTE: Not sure someone realized the irony of the following:

"The bizarre app appeared like it was convincing users that it was a real priest, with reported statements like: "I am as real as the faith we share."