ARMSTRONGISM 2021
Although folks like Gerald Flurry and David Pack have embraced Herbert Armstrong, many of the descendants of the Worldwide Church of God NEVER mention his name. They like to pretend that Herbert Armstrong and/or Garner Ted Armstrong have/had absolutely NOTHING to do with them. They continue to adhere to and preach many of their doctrines, but they act as if they have derived their teachings directly from the pages of the Bible. In effect, they have chosen to deal with the sordid history of their movement by pretending that it all never happened, or that they have somehow moved beyond those men and their failures.
It’s like saying that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson had/have NOTHING to do with the United States of America! It’s like saying that Karl Marx had/has NOTHING to do with Communism in the Twenty-First Century, or that Colonel Sanders had/has NOTHING to do with Kentucky Fried Chicken! To be fair, Armstrongism isn’t the first religious movement to attempt to put some distance between themselves and their founder (e.g. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Charles Russell or Anglicans and King Henry VIII).
For groups like the United Church of God and Church of God International who claim to have moved beyond their founder’s failures, when pressed, they will almost always identify issues of government, administration and/or character as the principal failures of the founders of the movement (and the things which they have “corrected”). Unfortunately, even in these “liberal” organizations, the “core teachings” of Armstrongism are defended and preserved. And, while most of the critics of the movement would acknowledge problems in all of those areas, the elephant in the room is the flawed THEOLOGY of Herbert Armstrong. In other words, to pretend as if there is absolutely nothing amiss with those teachings is ABSURD!
Sure, we all understand how hard it is to invest so much of one’s life and energy in something that turns out to be a major mistake. The potential damage to our ego/psyche/sense of self-worth is frightening, and we are not without other examples of this very real phenomenon that all longtime Armstrongites have faced (or avoided facing). On the secular side, a great many Americans continue to support Donald Trump because the prospect of dealing with the consequences of admitting that they made such a major error in judgement are simply too horrific to entertain – let alone admit! Hence, it is much easier to live in a fantasy world that denies or ignores where the REAL problems lie. Sorry folks, whether or not you’re willing to confront them, the ghosts of Herbie and Ted continue to haunt everything you do!
Lonnie Hendrix
83 comments:
reminds me of the article on ABD,
https://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2014/11/herbert-w-armstrong-and-todays-churches.html
Why does the name "Lonnie Hendrix" link UCG and CGI together? That's so strange. Very odd indeed. Why not mention more ? LCG ?
Since when do CGI or UCG claim, as the name "Lonnie Hendrix" writes, that they have moved beyond HWA's failures??. Oh please. Its clear again the person hiding behind the name "Lonnie Hendrix" has NEVER been in CGI.
This is the weirdest post EVER !!!!
"...many of the descendants of the Worldwide Church of God NEVER mention his name. "
because we don't worship him, we follow God's instructions.
"Unfortunately, even in these “liberal” organizations, the “core teachings” of Armstrongism are defended and preserved. "
like it or not, the majority of HWA's teachings are biblically accurate.
" Hence, it is much easier to live in a fantasy world that denies or ignores where the REAL problems lie."
ho boy! that is rich!
As a member of Cogwa I can attest first hand how the ministry runs from referring to anything HWA said. They treat prophecy like it was the plague, doctrines are watered down to a point where they don't resemble what was taught years ago. They have their winter solstice weekend and birthday parties it goes on and on trying to be like the world. I guess they forgot what it says " come out of her my people". In the Roanoke church there is so much pandering to a few certain families with large amounts of people that make up 2/3 of the congregation. It becomes ludicrous making two of them first deacons, then one an elder in less than a year, then in a few weeks he's promoted to a minister trainee. I wonder what is next, holy days are optional.
1:46
Do you have some screws loose? Your obsession with who Lonnie is is beginning to be stalker mode! It’s quite obvious he is who he is from his history of posts here. Yours is the weirdest post ever!
I apparently hit a nerve in some of our ANONYMOUS commentators. I mentioned UCG and CGI as examples of splinters who claim to have corrected some of HWA's and GTA's "excesses." I never stated or even implied that they were linked (although they have participated in various joint worship events and discussions). I didn't mention LCG in this connection, because it was founded by one of HWA's evangelists (Rod Meredith). Hence, although I wouldn't characterize LCG as "worshipping" HWA, I think that they are closer to the Flurry and Pack model than the groups I mentioned (and which many Armstrongites characterize as "liberal").
No, the majority of HWA's teachings are NOT biblically accurate. The Bible isn't a jigsaw puzzle. British Israelism is a false, extra-biblical and racist teaching, and it is NOT the key to understanding biblical prophecy (it's the quickest route to misinterpreting prophecy). Angels NEVER had ANY part of man's potential. Humankind is NOT God's reaction to angelic failure (God is NOT working on Plan B). The Gospel of the Kingdom of God encompasses most of the things which HWA rejected as being a part of it. There was no grand Satanic conspiracy to change the Sabbath to Sunday, and the Roman Catholic Church had absolutely NOTHING to do with the origins of Sunday observance. Christmas and Easter are inventions of the Christian era and have very minimal vestiges or contributions from anything "pagan." Christ specifically rejected the authoritarian model of leadership which HWA advocated and used in his Worldwide Church. Is that enough or would you like me to go on?
-- The Name Lonnie Hendrix
Lonnie noted: "Sure, we all understand how hard it is to invest so much of one’s life and energy in something that turns out to be a major mistake. The potential damage to our ego/psyche/sense of self-worth is frightening, and we are not without other examples of this very real phenomenon that all longtime Armstrongites have faced (or avoided facing)."
=================
Nicely honest Lonnie as well as the Elephant in the room. The heyday of WCG is no mystery to me with our parents having come out of the horrors and their personal experiences with WW2 and for us, it was the 60's which were ripe hunting grounds for "Prophecy Comes Alive". It got me as a 14 year old and put me on a different track than my hindsight would have preferred. However, I also have to admit that no one could have talked me out of it and would have fallen into the "Get behind me Satan!" category of defensiveness and apologetic. lol.
On the other hand, if I had not had that experience, I would have had some other one and who knows what that would have been. I think of "What would have happened had I chosen Roberts Wesleyan Seminary, which had accepted me or Calvin College and Seminary, which is where most of my Dutch Reformed friends went as that was the denominational college to go to. Different relationships, friends, wife, kids, ministry, church, experiences and I am pretty sure I would have come to my same life conclusions about all things Bible, perhaps just sooner as both those institutions are a bit more honest, informed and less intimidated by Biblical realities. Only the consequences would have been in a different context.
Personally I have adopted the approach of "Is that so?" where judging any experience as "good" or "bad" is not the way to go. How often what we joyfully declare as "good" goes terribly wrong and what seems so horribly "bad" turns out pretty good. Even then, whether good or bad, "Is that so?" , for me, is good mental health and keeps the mental, emotional and physical consequences of "what eats us...eats us" in its place.
I had to laugh when my, then 94 year old dad and I were sitting on a bench on the shores of Lake Ontario talking and out of the blue he says, "You know, I always wanted to be a New York State Trooper." He worked at Kodak making film for 44 years. I said, "Dad! you are too nice. You would have been gunned down the first year! When you were supposed to give a traffic ticket you'd just say "Well, just don't do that again". He said, "Yeah...I know..." A good laugh was had by both. But it was news to me! :)
So spot on. The only choice is how we process it.
Hey, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were both great men, but also slave owners. Abraham in the Bible had slaves.
Society and life move forward. Life is lived in a time and space box. That box does not adapt well usually into the future. HWA and his "empire" are from another time and space. HWA, love him or hate him, cannot be fitted into the future as the litmus test of truth.
This is why groups like Flurry and many others are still stuck on "suits and ties" for church, when even Wall Street has moved past strict dress codes. HWAs "predictions" and "papal bulls" are passe' and obsolete.
Society and organizations cannot go forward stuck in the past as a benchmark. They will stagnate and become irrelevant. The Amish as an example, are irrelevant to modern life, stuck in 1830s social mores and technology.
The only thing that seems to be an eternal constant are the 10 Commandments, that indeed are timeless and culturally fluid.
“Although folks like Gerald Flurry and David Pack have embraced Herbert Armstrong, many of the descendants of the Worldwide Church of God NEVER mention his name.”
Gerald Flurry and David Pack initially pretended to embrace Herbert W. Armstrong so they could latch onto his followers and their wallets. Now, Gerald Flurry only embraces Gerald Flurry and David Pack only embraces David Pack. They both reject Herbert W. Armstrong and what he taught.
Thanks, Dennis,
The way that we individually process some of the experiences which we share is of great interest to me. The different ways that we interpret the same evidence is intriguing and also somehow encouraging. The conclusions we reach are important, but the process we use to get there is transcendent.
Anonymous at 6:07 AM said...“As a member of Cogwa I can attest first hand how the ministry runs from referring to anything HWA said. They treat prophecy like it was the plague, doctrines are watered down to a point where they don't resemble what was taught years ago. They have their winter solstice weekend and birthday parties it goes on and on trying to be like the world. I guess they forgot what it says ' come out of her my people'.”
One of the biggest and worst ways in which the people in all the so-called COGs are like the world is that they like to watch the same television shows and movies that the world watches. These are full of every imaginable and unimaginable sin and wrong way of thinking, speaking, and behaving. This helps to explain why the behavior of so-called COG members is so bad. They regularly go to their television and computer screens to get taught by perverted actors from Hollyweird more than by anything else.
“Turn off the Boob Tube, my people.”
Actually Tonto, the 10 commandments are a part of the Old Covenant that was abolished. We're now under the New Covenant, the law of Christ. Ex.20-24 makes it very clear that the TC's was the OC. And Paul likewise in II Cor 3:6-18 that it has faded away, and Heb 8:13 it was ready to vanish away.
HWA wasn't totally unique in what he had wrong. He definitely wasn't unique in what he had right. Where he was unique was his eclectic combination of the right and wrong, which is labeled Armstrongism.
The splinters are each unique in that none of them are 100% copies of HWA's classical Armstrongism; at best (or worst) they are variants of Neo-Armstrongism. Tossing out HWA himself doesn't change that; it just removes him from their lineage - a Post-Armstrong strain of eclectic teachings.
Miller:
Your thoughts have caused me to consider that I have noticed an odd mental gymnastic among some Splinterists. I was speaking to an elderly woman who was a member of one of the Splinters some years back. And I mentioned a statement made by a theologian. She quickly snapped, "I don't care what men say, I care about what god says." She was thoroughly imbued in Armstrongism yet factored HWA out of the equation. It was as if she got her beliefs directly from god and HWA was chopped liver. And Christianity vacuously gave credence to men.
In fact, she did get her beliefs from a man contrary to her assertion. A man who used to emphasize "follow me as I follow Christ." Who termed himself our "father" in the faith as Paul did in 1 Cor 4:15. He clearly inserted himself in the equation but would no doubt be pleased at the woman's statement. It would mean that believing his words and believing in god's words are the same thing. A nice compliment.
The problem is that this view erodes critical thinking. One can believe HWA's words unreservedly as if they were the words of god himself. And then you segue to a stage where what you believe has no connection to HWA only a connection to god. It is a form of unconscious divinization of the words of a man that precludes useful critical review of these words. I believe this happened with Luther and Lutheranism and Calvin and Calvinism. Now it is happening with Armstrong and Armstrongism. I believe Armstrogism cut loose from its moorings in HWA's thoughts will be not only derelict but hardened.
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I agree with Bob Thiel about the original Catholic Church because I found quotes from Justin Martyr that talk about a coming kingdom of God, so I think it was less paganized and more Christian in the early Catholic Church and the truth is, no one has the right to worship Mary and let her pray for us sinners, because there is only one mediator between God and man who is Jesus Christ.
In fact, Mr. Miller Jones, you are wrong because Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday by the Roman Catholic Church, that has been proven. “I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one who can prove to me by the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.’ THE CATHOLIC CHURCH says, ‘No! By my Divine power, I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.”
- Bishop Thomas Enright, personal letter printed in Experiences of a Pioneer Minister of Minnesota
“Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day—Saturday—for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day? I answer no!”
- James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), signed letter
“For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.”
- “To Tell You the Truth,” The Catholic Virginian
So Miller-Jones based on the evidence if you are honest you will accept the fact that the Catholic Church changed the day.
Evidence ?
Miller Jones to make it easier for you to understand who changed Sabbath to Sunday was the Catholic Church, the pope had no authority to change that and the liberal church of groups have no authority to change the teachings of Herbert Armstrong, unless they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt he was wrong, then they are obligated to change them. However, the UCG now maintains pagan birthdays, although even Wikipedia and other secular sources show that birthday celebrations have pagan origins and the plain truth is birthdays were not celebrated by early Christians.
It's not worshiping HWA bringing up his name, I think he's an honorable man of God who should be honored, yes he's not our God, but if you don't mention his name then don't bother going to your splinter group, the apostle gives you his truth and now you're abandoning him for your little splinter leaders when the greatest of all leaders finally gave them the plain truth in worldwide days. If you reject an apostle, you will reject God Himself.
We must not call ourselves members of any church of God, name of splinter group, because we are just members of the church of God, a spiritual organism. The only people who can call themselves members of the corporation are the board of directors, nobody else.
I very much doubt anon 6:07 is a Cogwa member.
Tonto always adds common sense & logic where it is needed. Well said.
Dear Mr. Miller-Jones, please go back to a previous post here where I tried to teach you that you have to climb the ladder to enter the kingdom of God, but in case you missed it I said: Climb the ladder to the kingdom:
To enter the kingdom of God, you have to start small, when God gives you some knowledge, then you must obey what you learn, the more you obey, the more God will open your mind to understand, so you must obey that understand life it's about building moral and spiritual character, you go up by your obedience to enter the kingdom of God, start small and go up, then we have to climb the ladder to the kingdom of God and if you sin willfully, choose the Catholic path church and the world of Satan you will fall down the ladder completely, no matter how high you climb and there will be no more sacrifice for your sin, but if you stay the course and strive to keep God's commandments as much as possible, you will receive the greatest reward for ruling in the kingdom of God and replacing Satan and his demons. You think you can "instant salvation" without realizing you have to work your way up the ladder, work out your own salvation God wants you to obey and build character, but he won't build character for you if you just want to sin and reject God and also reject the apostle that you will, well, be honest about It I want to help you get back on track with the truth, but don't play games at denying the truth that's already been delivered. My advice to you is to start changing from going Satan's way of the world (the 'get' way) to the way of God (the 'give' way) and if you can handle that then change and devote your life to the Kingdom of God I want to rule with you it will be a shame if you lose your crown because you got duped by the apostates.
I came to believe as most in the WCG that God revealed his truths through HWA. It is rather odd that some of the splinters pretend that he never existed when they would not exist if not for HWA being the conduit of Gods revelations of truth. I am no longer associated with any religious organization and left armstrongism a long time ago because I came to understand that religions are man made institutions. I marvel at how some of the splinters have discarded the very person that started their religion.
No nerve hit.
6:15
Screws loose? The only ones with screws loose is you. Stalker mode? This is a public blog. Are comments falling for your lies only allowed.
Having attended PCG, I strongly disagree with this post. They actually mention HWA more in their sermons, bible study, sermonette, and even in "fellowships" than they mention God. Their idolatry of the man is unbelievable. Whichever COG you had the "pleasure" of attending - if you really were part of one - is on a bettter track than PCG.
Post stated that some of the splinter COGs have distanced themselves from the Armstrong name.
Here is where they have not distanced themselves.
1. Rule from the top down. 2. Getting the money sent to headquarters. 3 No accountability.
When UCG was set up they were going to have a rotating leadership. They were going to be transparent. Let’s see how long has Vic been the president. How many of the same men run the board. How much is Vic’s salary? Is Jim Frank going to give up being the head honcho at COGWA. Is Doug Horchak going to step down. Dave Pack, Flurry or any of the others? Are they transparent? How much are their salaries. They are not about to reveal what they make or how much they spend on trips. They will never reveal a detailed accounting of administration expenses. Oh you will see some totals such as admin budget: $1,674,000 but let’s see a detailed brake down.
Why does each little group need a headquarters? Why does each group feel they need to control everything? When there is a disagreement between any top ministers does it alway end up with a split and another new group being formed and a new head honcho with a headquarters and new ruler?
The answer is obvious! Control, Control, Control. I am in charge, if I am wrong God will correct the problem. Your responsibility is to submit to God’s government. Just send in your tithes and offerings a learn to get along. Learn to live in unity. Here at headquarters we will tell you what God has revealed to us. Your job is to obey.
End of story.
Jim-AZ
Back in 1995, I was thinking of going with Global Church oh God. I met with Rod Meredith. My wife and I had lunch with him. Rod explained how Global was different. It was purposely set up with a board. The board was to make the decisions. He told me that the board even had power to overrule HIM. He told me about several leading men that helped him with Global. He went on to brag about Raymond McNair. He called him MR. Faithful. A leading long time minister. He mentioned Larry Salyer. A young but leading evangelist and Carl McNair, Dick Ames. Dibar Apartian. He assured me these men would make the decisions. He told me it would be run by the board being lead byGod.
That lasted till There was a disagreement. I don’t know or remember the details but what I heard was that Rod wanted his tv program to be aired on WGN. The board felt they didn’t have the money to buy time on WGN. If that was not the reason, whatever, Rod was indignant and fought the board’s decision. So Rod split and formed Living Church of GOD. Larry Salyer was left running Global. Rod was able to get control of most of the Global’s assets. He left Global with no money. Larry declared bankruptcy. Later Raymond McNair decided to rejoin Rod over at LCG. However, Rod was not forgiving toward Raymond. Raymond was no longer Mr. Faithful. So Raymond left Living and formed his own church.
And of course Rod didn’t make the mistake of allowing a board to rule Living. No sir, HE was going to run it. HE was to become THE presiding evangelist!
Power, control, rule from the top down, God’s government! It never changes
Jim-AZ
We have attended both UCG and COGWA and can't find much difference between the 2 except COGWA has more younger people. Our primary concern was how some ministers freely allow members to marry and divorce numerous times. Sometimes, they marry another church member, but quite often they don't. When it doesn't work out they try again...
Lonnie
Believe it or not, many HWA splinter and former WWCG members daily study their bibles, pray to God, and follow Christ. Their reference point isn't Herb, but like the Bereans, do their best to "prove all things." Which means that they end up agreeing with Herb on some doctrines. That many splinters now down play Herb is progress since in the old days, Herb was the real but unstated reference point. Many members have matured and out grown the need for a daddy leader.
Unfortunately, many members such as in Daves RCG have not.
So I've refuted many of Lonnie's statements about the Sabbath with quotes as proof, I hope they make this site. I know I posted them.
Anonymous 6/17 @ 11:26,
Your "evidence" is a bunch of statements by Catholics claiming responsibility for the change? The Roman Catholic Church as we understand it didn't really emerge until the Fourth Century and didn't really have the ability to set Christian doctrine until the reign of Gregory the Great in the Sixth Century. In other words, Sunday observance was already well-entrenched by the time that the Roman Church had acquired the power to impose their will on the rest of the Church.
Sorry, the historical evidence suggests that Sunday observance among Gentile Christians began in the First Century. Moreover, by the year 70 AD, the Sunday-keeping Gentile Christians outnumbered the Sabbath-keeping Jewish Christians within the Church. And, after that year (and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple), the Sabbath-keeping Jewish Christians were scattered and persecuted. Hence, by the close of the First Century, the vast majority of Christians were worshipping on Sunday (for proof of this, read Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, etc.).
By the way, I continue to observe the Sabbath. Even so, the historical narrative which Mr. Armstrong offered is not consistent with documented history or biblical scholarship on the subject.
Anonymous 6/17 @ 12:41,
My ladder into the Kingdom is Jesus Christ. He's the ONLY ladder I need. NONE of my own works will earn me a spot in that Kingdom (including my observance of the Sabbath). So, please don't worry about me! If God is true to his word (and I believe he is), I'll be there!
It's not worshiping HWA bringing up his name, I think he's an honorable man of God who should be honored, yes he's not our God, but if you don't mention his name then don't bother going to your splinter group, the apostle gives you his truth and now you're abandoning him for your little splinter leaders when the greatest of all leaders finally gave them the plain truth in worldwide days. If you reject an apostle, you will reject God Himself.
We are living in this present evil roman government world and we're all under that roman government whether we understand that or not just yet but that government that is depicted by that statue King Nebuchadnezzar saw way back in the Chaldean empire with god telling you are the first world empire o great king Nebuchadnezzar you are the head of gold on this statue and then after you, this statue represents all the world-ruling empires that existed.
God wiping out the pre flood generation and replacing it with His 6000 year template is definitely a plan B. That God had to spend 34 billion years designing the new creatures and vegetation for mans new abode points to a initially unintended plan B.
In that case you won't mind if I rob you.
The Church of God, a Worldwide Association, Inc. (COGWA) has produced a booklet called Where Is the Church Jesus Built? (copyright 2018).
Chapter 4 of this booklet is called God's Church Through the Centuries.
Pages 44-45 give a brief history of Herbert W. Armstrong (1892-1986) and the Worldwide Church of God.
“As a continuation of the Church founded by Jesus in A.D. 31, the Church of God, a Worldwide Association, publisher of this booklet, traces its roots and history through Herbert W. Armstrong and the many other faithful Christians throughout the centuries.”
Pagan origins? Are we to go naked because pagans wore cloths? Besides, HWA celebrated his birthday with friends. Birthdays are condemned in the ACOGs because of Herbs "beware of the evil of self esteem." Members are expected to believe that they are dirt, and deserve to be treated like dirt by their ministers.
HWA installed a totalitarian church system. Members were robbed of their adulthood and treated like children. So no, he is not a honorable man.
Anonymous at 6:07 AM said...“As a member of Cogwa I can attest first hand how the ministry runs from referring to anything HWA said. They treat prophecy like it was the plague, doctrines are watered down to a point where they don't resemble what was taught years ago.”
COGWA does now have a few booklets about prophecy, such as:
The Book of Revelation: The Storm Before the Calm (Copyright 2015)
The United States, Britain & The Commonwealth in Prophecy (Copyright 2016)
How To Understand Prophecy (Copyright 2020)
Perhaps COGWA has learned some important lessons from the past 80+ years of supposedly sincere people recklessly guessing wrong in God's name.
Notice that some people have continued to guess wrong in recent years:
Gerald Flurry showed himself to be a false prophet.
David Pack showed himself to be a false prophet and a babbling idiot.
Norbert Link “got egg on his face.”
Alton Billingsley talked like an old fool.
DennisCDiehl, June 17, 2021 at 7:22 AM, said:
Lonnie noted: "Sure, we all understand how hard it is to invest so much of one’s life and energy in something that turns out to be a major mistake. The potential damage to our ego/psyche/sense of self-worth is frightening, and we are not without other examples of this very real phenomenon that all longtime Armstrongites have faced (or avoided facing)."
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Dennis then said, in part: "...Personally I have adopted the approach of "Is that so?" where judging any experience as "good" or "bad" is not the way to go. How often what we joyfully declare as "good" goes terribly wrong and what seems so horribly "bad" turns out pretty good. Even then, whether good or bad, "Is that so?" , for me, is good mental health and keeps the mental, emotional and physical consequences of "what eats us...eats us" in its place..."
******
Is that so?
Lonnie said there are examples of this very real phenomenon and I thought there sure are. Dennis gave his example of experiencing that evil while looking for good.
Adam and Eve lived life and they sought good and found lots of evil, and is/was that so? Yes.
We all experience the same thing in different ways to one degree or another. Job came to mind. Job believed he experienced the following:
"When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness." Job 30:26
Is that so? Whether it is so, or not, we all will experience this good and evil.
How many people today in the USA are looking for good? Are they finding it? Is that so?
Time will tell...
John
"If you reject an apostle, you will reject God Himself."
Rejecting Herbert Armstrong, who was not an apostle
Rejecting Bob Thiel who is not a prophet or an apostle
Does NOT cause one to reject God. In fact, it opens up space for God to actually work in your life for once.
Only a fool follows false prophets and false apostles.
Herbert W. Armstrong's way of life is the path to peace, happiness, and joy.
8:04 writes: "Herbert W. Armstrong's way of life is the path to peace, happiness, and joy."
I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. Seriously dude?
Herbert Armstong's vindictiveness destroyed his family and alienate ALL of his children against him.
Rod Meredith, at Armstrong's command, destroyed thousands of marriages and split up families.
Armstrongism has been filled with stalkers, rapists, pedophiles, and murderers
He taught heretical doctrines
He preached hundreds and hundreds of false prophecies.
In the lifetime of the church, over 400,000 left the church for greener pastures or into atheism.
Thanks to Armstrong's lies we have such lying idiots as Bob Thiel, David Pack, Gerald Flurry, Don BIllinglsey, Gerald Weston, Vig Kubik, Gerald Flurry, and more.
David C. Pack has a lot of truth in his writings, it's not his fault that people's lives have broken marriages David C. Pack has many precious teachings, but for them to work on you, they need to be applied.
I believe if you follow the RCG teachings like what they teach in their youth magazine, it will lead to true happiness, but you have to really follow it and apply that precious knowledge.
What did I just read above??????
Dave Pack has NO TRUTH! If Dave's precious truths are so fabulous why has he driven out of the church every single one of his children? What have hundreds of employees and ministers left over the years?
Why are members suffering so horribly as they sacrifice their financial lives to give it all to Dave, who needs none of it?
Tell you hate-filled comment about the broken marriages that are a direct result of Dave, that is all their fault? Ask the wives of husbands who turned their backs on their wives to give all their money and property to Dave and leaving their wives high and dry? You sir are sick!
Anonymous 9:49 suffering is good for you let me explain. Suffering kicks the learning mechanism in the mind into gear as nothing else can, to teach us the "right way." It is also the result of broken health laws, and of broken physical and/ or spiritual laws, of our own or of those around us. Jesus Christ also suffered horribly, not because of crimes He committed but because of our, all mankind's, spiritual crimes. He bled and died on the stake or cross, to pay the penalty of the sins of all mankind, to make it possible for you and me and all people, past, present, and future, to receive forgiveness from our sins and to inherit eternal life in the kingdom and family of God. Praise and thank the Lord for that!
So God will let them suffer because he loves them.
Anonymous 9:49 PM I do not need to ask their wives because anyone who loves the truth will do anything stay where God is leading and is the head they wouldn't leave God's true church if they were good people.
@9:49PM, you're not being called by God
LMAO! God is not leading Dave Pack and his followers are not God's true church. That is a fact. There is not one single thing about the Restored Church of God that glorifies God.
Ask his children who saw through the lies and deception that has ripped their family apart.
Dave spits in God's face every time he opens his mouth.
Anon 10:4 PM the only thing that is spitting is the truth that is why he has so hated Satan hates the truth.
His kids were not loyal probably because God never called them if they were called and acted upon their calling they would be happy in RCG.
I have listened to sermons from LCG, UCG, COGWA and others over the last several years, and have heard HWA not just mentioned but praised from the pulpit in all these groups. While he might not be referred to in their formal literature as much, these groups still talk about him and I have been told that his portrait hangs in at least some of their headquarters offices.
Many things said by the ACOGs are just window dressing. They say them on the odd occasion, but ignore them overall. Sometimes they even indirectly attack the window dressing teachings. So having a booklet/s on a topic doesn't necessarily mean that it's a church staple.
Name the sermons, titles and speakers.
https://romeschallenge.com/
an interesting read...I'm sure most of you are already aware of this.
Before I heard GTA for the first time I was into Nostradamus and UFOs. If I hadn't gone to the WCG, I might have ended up a Mormon, Christadelphian or a JW. They all had similar attraction.
I'm thankful that I got in a cult that eventually fell apart, or I may still be in one, or dead.
Many of the doctrines of HWA came from the Scofield bible. Scofield lied about his qualifications, and his theology was a trick. He was working with Jews who had a lot of money and gave out MANY free Scofield bibles to make Christian theology more sympathetic to Jews and Zionism. No wonder Herbert was a huge fan of Israel and traveled there many times and got cozy with Irgun Terrorist leader Manachem Begin who became PM of Israel. Israel is a state born in lies and terrorism and Herbert was in close with them.
It is true that they will mention HWA. They will mention "The Truth". They will talk about Unity. They will talk about how they are "the first fruits". They will talk about the sabbath and how because of this they are different from the other "so-called Christians".
But, they will not go into detail about HWA's actual teachings, they will not go into detail about "the Truth" except the sabbath. They know most of their adult members over 40 have been sufficiently indoctrinated from years gone by. These are now the parents/grandparents that indoctrinated those under 40.
While not expressly taught with detail, most in the less overtly cultish cogs (UCG, COGWA, LCG) believe:
- in British Israelism,
- that HWA was a prophet/apostle and should be followed,
- that hwa started the true church in the modern era,
- that they are the first fruits and other Christians are false and deceived,
- that obedience and following God's commands means the Mosaic Law (they do not
consider that Christ gave many commands in the New Covenant)
- that they alone obey and follow God's commands (again, they do not consider many traditional Christians do believe in obedience and following God's commands and direction, but have a different understanding on sabbath, unclean foods, and really there isn't much more except for weird stuff they don't discuss much publicly).
The leadership knows their members generally "proved" this to themselves in their highschool/college age years while reading booklets. These members did not utilize other sources and the booklets said all the scholars with different beliefs were deceived anyway. COG members today are still afraid to look at counter arguments lest they be deceived from "The Truth". So, generally as a group they have been simply indoctrinated. They believe otherwise because they can turn to some fabricated linkage of scriptures, but the context is seldom there.
The reason UCG,COGWA,LCG does not get into the details is because:
1) they do not need to as the members know the conclusions (which is all that really matters after all).
This allows them to write booklets that will not scare off "new people" with the wacky details, but are written in such a way as to hearken back to the old teachings that the members remember, but gives a bit of wiggle room when discussing with new people. Later, the wiggle room is largely removed if the new people begin attending. Of course this is all justified as not overwhelming babes in the faith with "strong meat".
2) they also know the details are dangerous. They know that giving the details could very well result in some members, perhaps younger members, realizing, "Wait! That actually does not follow the context or logic. Is this faulty explanation really the argument I've been basing my conclusions on?!"
It's just all so weird and in looking back, silly.
The jews are God's physically chosen people and the church is God's spiritually chosen people.
Imagine what the church would be like if they spoke about Jesus Christ as much as some of them do about Herbert Armstrong. I'm am talking about the real Jesus and not the made-up creatures that Pack, Flurry, and Thiel have imagined up.
Anon,June 17, 2021 at 9:55 PM, wrote the following to: "Anonymous 9:49 suffering is good for you let me explain. Suffering kicks the learning mechanism in the mind into gear as nothing else can, to teach us the "right way." It is also the result of broken health laws, and of broken physical and/ or spiritual laws, of our own or of those around us. Jesus Christ also suffered horribly, not because of crimes He committed but because of our, all mankind's, spiritual crimes. He bled and died on the stake or cross, to pay the penalty of the sins of all mankind, to make it possible for you and me and all people, past, present, and future, to receive forgiveness from our sins and to inherit eternal life in the kingdom and family of God. Praise and thank the Lord for that!
So God will let them suffer because he loves them."
******
But where did you learn that Jesus: "...bled and died on the stake or cross, to pay the penalty of the sins of all mankind, to make it possible for you and me and all people, past, present, and future, to receive forgiveness from our sins and to inherit eternal life in the kingdom and family of God?"
What wages of sin?
Is any human alive today over 1,000 years of age? No. Why not? Those who lived and died paid the wages of sin, which is death. They, like you and me, must pay those wages.
Now, forgiveness, and eternal life, are something else.
Will you, not Jesus, pay your wages for the sins in your life? When will you receive the answer to that question?
Time will tell.
John
I'm resending this as the one I sent last night is yet to appear (lost?) ...
Phinnpoy said, the 10 commandments are a part of the Old Covenant that was abolished.
Ps 89:30-31 “If his sons forsake My law/torah and do not walk in My judgments, If they break My statutes and do not keep My commandments, ...
Ps 89:34 MY COVENANT I WILL NOT BREAK, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips."
Although Ps 89 is speaking of God's covenant with David, the torah is mentioned as something that should not be forsaken. God's commandments are to be kept. Similar to the Davidic covenant, the Sinai covenant is eternal.
Lev 26:44-45, Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I WILL NOT CAST THEM AWAY, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them AND BREAK MY COVENANT WITH THEM; for I am YHVH their God. But for their sake I WILL REMEMBER THE COVENANT OF THEIR ANCESTORS, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am YHVH.’ ”
Please read this - Jer 31 vs Heb 8.
With whom will God make the new covenant? With the houses of Israel and Judah (Jer 31:31; Heb 8:8b). Who were their ancestors? The ones who participated in the Sinai covenant (Jer 31:32a; Heb 8:9a). When will it be made? When there is already a universal knowledge of God (Jer 31:34; Heb 8:11).
The new covenant is still in the future.
Anon 0/6/17/2021, you ought to read Genesis sometime. In Gen. 31:39, Jacob tells Laban he bore the loss of livestock, whether it was stolen day or night. In verse 30, Laban gripes about his gods being stolen. Earlier, in Gen. 26:5, we're told Abraham obeyed God's voice,kept his charge, commandments,statues, and his laws. So, there was laws before the 10 Commandments. And, btw, there was no sabbath keeping before Moses. None of the Pre-Mosaic patriarchs were ever recorded as keeping a sabbath. That alone, is a proof the 10 commandments didn't exist before the time of Mises.
No the ten commandments was not abolished.
Don't believe you EX-COGWA. I think you're strawman attacking.
like it or not, the majority of HWA's teachings are biblically accurate.
June 17, 2021 at 6:04 AM
the liberal church of groups have no authority to change the teachings of Herbert Armstrong, unless they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt he was wrong, then they are obligated to change them.
June 17, 2021 at 11:43 AM
the apostle gives you his truth and now you're abandoning him for your little splinter leaders when the greatest of all leaders finally gave them the plain truth in worldwide days. If you reject an apostle, you will reject God Himself.
June 17, 2021 at 11:57 AM
if you just want to…also reject the apostle…
June 17, 2021 at 12:41 PM
Herbert W. Armstrong's way of life is the path to peace, happiness, and joy.
June 17, 2021 at 8:04 PM
HWA had no direct line with God the Father or Christ Jesus His Son. None whatsoever. HWA couldn’t divinely punish anyone for rejecting him and his word or perform miraculous healings like the OT prophets and NT apostles.
HWA was not divinely appointed or sent by God or Christ to preach the everlasting gospel as an apostle and prophet. He definitively proved time and again by his own sexually immoral and profligate personal conduct and his failed predictions that he was in fact a false apostle and false prophet—wholly unfit for the Christian ministry.
HWA’s teachings were all sourced from other groups, including Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, British-Israelism, Adventism, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.
HWA changed his own teachings throughout the decades. What he believed and taught in the 1930s would differ to what he believed and taught in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 1980s when he finally died.
So, it’s more than appropriate to critically analyze HWA’s beliefs and practices to definitively prove to our own satisfaction whether something he claimed to be true is actually Biblically true or false just as he did—and we would—all of these very same religious groups!
Anon 1126 - A few years ago I showed a 4-page list of quotes from Catholic sources that they changed "Sabbath to Sunday" to a former Catholic, now Protestant pastor. With a few ill-chosen "proof texts" he insisted the Apostles had made the change.
My own understanding is that since the late First Century the transition was an unclear "work in progress", and, like HWA, the Catholic Church took credit for something that had already happened.
As Ronald Dart mentioned, the meeting of Acts 15 was over a matter of circumcision, so if the early church had changed to Sunday, there would have been an Apostolic record of it.
And not forgetting that HWA kept saying for over 40 years that "in the name of the Living God, I tell you that we only have 3 to 5 short years left." He was a pathological liar.
If the New Covenant is still in the future, then nobody can be saved now. No, the New replaced the Old in 33 AD.
I noticed that nearly all the Scriptures you quoted to 'prove' your points came from the Old Testament. That is dangerous, because unless you see how the New Testament explains the Old Testament Scriptures, you'll have a veil over your mind, and won't understand them. Only by turning to Christ and the New Covenant can you have any understanding.
The 10 Commandments were abolished. They were a part of the Mosaic law. Read Ex 20-24, II Cor 3:6-18, and Hebrews, especially Heb.8:13. They were replaced by the law of Christ. Read Matt. 5-7 to get an understanding of the new law that replaced the old.
When Moses was given the 613 laws of the Law of Moses, were those living in Korea or Bolivia obligated to obey them, also? If not, is it because they were given to only one nation, the Israelites?
When I switched phone contracts from AT&T to Verizon, do I follow the rules of the AT&T contract, which expired, or do I follow the current "new" contract with Verizon? If I continue to follow the old contract, am I denying that I signed a new contract? The Jews don't follow the New Covenant because they deny that the Messiah has come. If we try to follow the Old, are we not denying that the Messiah has come, also?
When Jesus or Paul says, "Keep the Commandments" should we consider which commandments they are referring to? When I'm in Tanzania or Kenya, we drive on the left side of the road. If a police officer stopped me and said, "obey the traffic laws," I assume he is referring to the Tanzanian or Kenyan laws, not the American ones.
If I am pulled over by the police while on my motorcycle for not wearing the mandated helmet, do I avoid a ticket because at least I wasn't speeding? In other words, does obeying a few of the laws make me immune from prosecution when I break others? If not, then how can those who claim to obey the 613 LAWS given to Moses ignore so many of them?
If obeying the law dealing with Sabbath, Holy Days, and so many others is so important, why do we not see so many commandments to obey them after Pentecost?
Phinnpoy on June 19th @6:35am wrote, If the New Covenant is still in the future, then nobody can be saved now.
In Gen 6:9, Noah is described as a righteous (Heb tzaddik, H6662) and blameless (Heb tamim, H8549) man. The same Heb tzaddik is used in 2 Chr 12:6, "YHVH is righteous". Also, the same Heb tamim is used in Ex 12:5 in describing the passover lamb, "Your lamb should be without blemish".
YHVH has no equal. It's just that the same Hebrew word for righteous is used to describe Noah. I believe he is the only human described in Tanakh as tzaddik.
Noah lived before the Sinai covenant. Does this mean he is not 'saved'? How about Job, Abraham, David, Hezekiah, Josiah, Elijah, Elisha, the 7000 (1 Ki 19:18), and others who in their lifetime obeyed God to the best of their ability?
Eze 18:21-23 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Adonai YHVH, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
Is the passage above speaking of physical life? No, it is speaking of eternal life.
Orthodox Jews believe non-Jews are under a different set of laws called Noahide. Here's what Chabad has to say about Noahide Laws:
"Nobody needs to convert or join a particular church or temple to keep these principles and laws. But it is important to keep them because this is what the supreme G‑d wants of every one of us, and not only because they are wise and good laws.
Anyone who keeps these basic rules for that reason—regardless of race, nationality or culture—is considered a righteous person and granted eternal life upon leaving this world."
Phinnpoy wrote, That is dangerous, because unless you see how the New Testament explains the Old Testament Scriptures, you'll have a veil over your mind, and won't understand them.
Tanakh is the foundation of NT. It doesn't need the NT. The NT cannot stand without Tanakh. The NT contradicts the teachings of Tanakh. Whenever there is discrepancy, I rely on the words of Tanakh.
Paul's distorted version of events:
2 Cor 3:13-14 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
Ex 34:29-32 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him. Then Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him; and Moses talked with them. Afterward all the children of Israel came near, and he gave them as commandments all that YHVH had spoken with him on Mount Sinai.
Ex 34:33 And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face.
Was Moses wearing a veil over his face when he delivered to them the terms of the Sinai covenant? No.
Here's the interlinear of Ex 34:33. The very first word in this verse is vayechal (Strong's H3615), meaning 'at an end', 'finished', or 'spent'. Notice that this same Hebrew vayechal is used in Gen 2:1, "Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished"
Other examples of Paul twisting Scriptures - read here.
Anon 1:09 PM Moses is nothing compared to Herbert Armstrong.
Anon June 19 @3:12pm,
Numbers 12
v1 Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses ...
v8b "... Why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?"
v9 So the anger of YHVH was aroused against them, ...
True 6:19. But by God scattering the Church. Members gained much freedom away from evil rulers who love to treat them like dirt.
Hi Hoss,
Reread Acts 15. It actually is about “circumcision and the law”. It says so multiple times. They said israel or our Fathers were “unable to keep it”. What is “it”? I suspect they were all circumcised, so they were able to fulfill the teaching on circumcision. As such it was not just about circumcision. It was “circumcision and the law”
So anon 109 has discrediting Paul as his argument.
Anon June 20 @9:40am,
This is in response to your (another?) one liner ...
How credible is Paul's midrash when the very event he used to support this is deliberately distorted?
Paul was making an unverifiable claim ('Israelites are spiritually blind') using a verifiable event (Moses speaking the terms of the Sinai covenant). Moses did not have a veil over his face when he spoke the Sinai covenant to the Israelites (Ex 34:33).
Paul is nothing compared to David C. Pack?
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