The Philadelphia Church of God has an article up about how they and they alone are training their followers to be leaders in some magical kingdom they claim is coming where they will be of the same substance and equal with Jesus as gods.
Dwight Falk writes:
There is a massive leadership crisis in this world! Daily headlines show the terrible and harmful decisions being made by political and religious leaders—decisions that harm the very people they are supposed to be helping!
What is wrong with the leadership in this world? The answer comes by going back to who actually rules this world today. Satan the devil is the god of this world! (2 Corinthians 4:4). Shocking, but true!
Ephesians 2:2 reveals how Satan rules this world today: “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.”
I don't think anyone here would have any doubt that most of today's world leaders are abject failures in what they do. Of course in Armstrongite speak, this is all attributed to Satan, the most powerful god in the Church of God movement. If one wants to believe in a literal devil then one has to also notice that the leadership crisis described above is also present in the Church of God movement today. Never has the church been filled with so many corrupt, lying, self-appointed prophets, and apostles as we have today in the church. Considering ALL of the splinter groups are children of rebellion this also makes all their leaders children of disobedience and followers of that Satan described above.
Satan broadcasts his evil moods and impulses. He is a very negative and selfish being. Galatians 5:19-21 list the works of the flesh that are a result of yielding to Satan’s broadcast. These wicked fruits include adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings.
This is a horribly wicked and depressing list of what we see on Earth today. Verse 21 further tells us that “they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
All of the things assigned above to Satan's "broadcast" are every single thing that is wrong in the Church of God today. With its history of adulterous leaders and lascivious behaviors to the idolatry of money, position, and power. To the hatred, some in leadership positions have against members and lower subordinates, to its rich heritage of appalling heresies. Add to that the incredible epidemic of alcoholism in the ministry and the membership. And last, but not least, is the appalling history of stalkings, rapes, sexual assaults, child molestations, and murders in the Church of God movement, It is no wonder God says they will not inhereit the kingdom to come.
But, this is the Church of God we are talking about here and specifically the Philadelphia Church of God and there is a special place for them above all others!
But the great news is that there is a Kingdom of God coming! This Kingdom will last forever and the leadership positions will be filled with righteous leaders (Daniel 2:44).
Where will these leaders come from?
God is using His Church today to prepare people to rule in the Kingdom of God. Incredible? Absolutely! But it is the very truth of your Bible.
Would anyone here want to live in a kingdom ruled by Church of God leaders and members, considering what we know about so many of them today?
God’s Church started small but it was beginning to grow. Christ shows in Luke 12:32 that God’s Church would always be a little flock in this world when compared to the numerous false churches.
Today's Church of God movement is just as fractured and broken as the world's churches they self-righteously condemn, so they have no right in casting stones of self-righteousness.
But through His Church, God is training elite leaders for His Kingdom. Once members are baptized and receive a portion of God’s Spirit, they must use that Spirit to take on the very character of God. God’s people grow as they put their heart into God’s Work.
Um, people grow as they place their faith in Christ, that inconvenient dude that is constantly in the way of the "Work" of the Churches of God. It's always about the physical things members must constantly be doing to impress and please the condemning god of the church. Faith is not a fruit of the spirit that is really emphasized in the church. Faith doesn't require submission to corrupt lying COG leaders but in the One, they are supposed to be following.
In spite of all of this, PCG leaders and COG leaders as a whole believe they are able to deliver the following to their followers, though 99% of them never do:
What type of growth does God’s Spirit produce? Simply, the fruits of God’s Spirit.
These fruits are listed in Galatians 5:22-23. These righteous rulers are using God’s Spirit today to develop love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.
When have any of us ever seen a COG leader bring joy and peace to the church? How many of them have ever been long-suffering? Have they ever been gentle to their followers? Is there any COG leader who has ever been a meek person?
Christianity.com describes meekness as the following, something we have NEVER seen in any COG leader. Out-of-control emotions are how COG leaders operate.
Meekness is not weakness; it is power under control. As the writer of Proverbs says, "He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city" (Proverbs 16:32). In contrast, the individual who is not gentle is likened to "a city that is broken into and without walls" (Proverbs 25:28). Gentleness always uses its resources appropriately, unlike the out-of-control emotions that so often are destructive and have no place in your life as a believer. Who are the Meek? Why did Jesus say "Blessed are the Meek"?
Falk continues:
These fruits are about to fill this Earth as they increasingly fill God’s Church today. God’s leaders will help bring the abundance and joy of God’s way of life to the whole Earth and, ultimately, the universe (Isaiah 9:7).
God help us all of we have to rely upon PCG ministers and members to bring abundance and joy to the earth! Not only can we not count on them to do this, but it will also not happen with LCG, UCG, RCG, and those in the improperly named "continuing" Church of God. None of them have the capacity to do this.
“In my Father’s house are many mansions [offices]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you,” Christ said in John 14:2.
Christ Himself is preparing eternal offices and positions of authority for God’s people. New leadership is coming to this Earth, and it will be righteous leadership!
If COG leaders and members cannot act with righteous leadership today, in the flesh, how can we expect them to do so in the "god spirit" they claim they will be? If we believe this then we are all f*@#ed big time!
Today, God is training His people in the skill of following the government of God. Jesus Christ said, “I will build my church” (Matthew 16:18). Jesus came to build only ONE Church! (Ephesians 4:4).
And through His Church and Work, God is preparing the rulers who will assist Christ in the Kingdom of God. This world needs new leaders who obey God’s government and implement His law. This righteous leadership will help solve the problems brought on by sin.
This "government" crap and the emphasis on the law is necessary to the COG because these necessitate the vengeful wrathful god they need to justify their rotten behavior in today's life. Punishment is needed for a rebellious world that doesn't live up to the standards that they have been preaching. They need blood, guts, and death to justify their existence over the Jesus that came and broke all the rules and implemented righteousness through grace and mercy to those he came in contact with.
When have you ever seen a Church of God implement and practice grace and mercy?
Is there any COG group or leader that you would want to live under in their magical kingdom to come?
56 comments:
Where is NO2HWA's grace and mercy ?
Don't you ever get bored being a trouble stirrer?
Don't COG leaders ever get tired of being abusive twits? If these abusive jackasses would stop their lies and abuse then there would be nothing for the people on this blog to post or comment on. We all know that isn't going to happen, so we all make them accountable.
"God's" church (falsely so-called) taught one standard of behavior towards its members, and a totally different standard for outsiders, in other words, those who were "not called", not "having their chance" yet. The problem? The human mind does not function that way! If your mind has been warped to treat one set of individuals as less than, you are going to find excuses to treat people in the group as less than also.
I've often said that I really didn't begin to understand ethical treatment of fellow man, or love for people, until having left Armstrongism. We were taught not to pray for people not in the church. If you saw an accident on the way to sabbath services, decision whether to stop and render assistance was based upon whether or not brethren were involved. Don't waste your money on contributing to United Way, or Unicef. If you had extra money for such contributions, send it in to headquarters instead.
Problems? Scripture says God rains on the just and unjust alike. Jesus taught that everyone is our neighbor. Also, a Christian's leadership prowess can potentially become personal evangelism, which makes disciples. (the commission).
Love for God, Love for fellow man. Two equal commandments. Jesus referred to those as being His commandments. In Armstrongism, we were taught that slavish devotion to "the law" was love for God, as if there were some sort of contest, and in the church's selfish application, this always trumped or excluded love for fellow man. The law was used as an excuse for poor treatment of fellow man.
But, nice rhetorical question, is the church training leaders. We all know better than that, deep in our hearts.
What lies? What abuse? Where is the proof that COG leaders aren't running this blog? Why assume anything?
It was the religious leaders in Jesus Christ's day who had Temple prostitution of both sexes going on. It was the religious leaders who denied Jesus.
This Splinterist preacher wrote: "Once members are baptized and receive a portion of God’s Spirit, they must use that Spirit to take on the very character of God."
I believe this entire issue of leadership in Splinterdom pivots on the statement above. The statement describes the Holy Spirit as a non-sentient force that a person must "use" in order to become like God. It is as if John 16:5-14 were never written. It is clear that the Holy Spirit is personal and conducts a proactive ministry. The Holy Spirit is not a passive tool. Nowhere in scripture that I know if is there and example of someone "using" the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is in particular involved in church administration and the appointment of leaders. The Holy Spirit said in Acts 13:2: 'While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."'
So the question, reduced to its essentials, is this: "When the development of Christian leadership falls under the ministry of the Holy Spirit, can people who believe the Holy Spirit is not a person, even believe that such an idea is pagan, ever come to be Christian leaders?" I think the answer is obvious.
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Anonymous said...
What lies? What abuse? Where is the proof that COG leaders aren't running this blog? Why assume anything?
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Darn! Caught us... Was it pointing out our antics, delusions and we finding ourselves spoken of in the scriptures that gave us away?
If they really wanted to produce "LEADERS" then they should cut the umbilical chord of the supporting org, and let them go out and carve out their own congregations.
There is no necessity to have some centralized org controlling you. Isn't this the model that Paul and the other Apostles used? Going out, finding disciples and then trusting them to "do it".
ANONYMOUS WROTE: ----Where is the proof that COG leaders aren't running this blog?
MY RESPONSE:
I knew it.!! Dennis Diehl and Gary are the secret leaders of both UCG and COGWA! Its all a conspiracy I tell ya!
The PCG trains its leaders to be arrogant and malicious perverts who do nothing but evil continually to other people and pass it off as trying to help them.
Dennis said:
Darn! Caught us... Was it pointing out our antics, delusions and we finding ourselves spoken of in the scriptures that gave us away?
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Yes, you are described in the Scriptures, along with the sinners in the cog’s and all mankind. The problem is, at least one of them, atheists love to brag about what they think they are getting away with. There is not one thing positive about this site, well maybe with this one exception. That is the fun that comes from watching the Jer. 17:9 fight each other trying to make the other side look worse than itself. Not one other single positive thing here, well, except “me.” :)
If you want to do something remarkable DennissinneD, lead, instead of following the low life critics of the world. Even the secular world knows that much. You know, positive thinking, Peale, and grow rich, Hill, etc. infinitum. Oh, and don’t forget Phil. 4:13.
Why, just think, this site could grow by 35% each year too. It’s all about attitude and positive character. Noe, let’s see, where can I find that? Oh, with “me.” It’s so simple, see.
1:27 said: Don't COG leaders ever get tired of being abusive twits? If these abusive jackasses would stop their lies and abuse then there would be nothing for the people on this blog to post or comment on. We all know that isn't going to happen, so we all make them accountable
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Don’t Bannedditos ever get tired from slamming others without once offering a real, and positive alternative? The Bannedditos frankly are not smart enough to accomplish such a spectacular event.
But, all hope is not lost, some of them will be called and repent of what even the secular world doesn’t put up with.
Happy days are just a mind change away! Just think of it.
Tonto wrote:
"I knew it.!! Dennis Diehl and Gary are the secret leaders of both UCG and COGWA! Its all a conspiracy I tell ya!"
We have been collecting tithes too! We take credit cards, so please call in to 1-800-423-4444 and leave your 1st tithe, building fund, jet fund, 3rd tithe, tithe of the tithe, excess second tithe, and your special offering to the bacon fund.
It is time for the final push so please remember to cash in your 401 and 403 B savings right now! Mortgage your homes and businesses and don't worry about having to pay any of it back because we will be in Petra by that time, well before Bob Thiel gets there and will have the choicest of rooms at the Petra Marriot and the best caves for the largest donors.
Anon wrote on 10/26 @5:55am, What lies? ... It was the religious leaders in Jesus Christ's day who had Temple prostitution of both sexes going on. It was the religious leaders who denied Jesus.
You are the one lying if you cannot provide credible proofs of your accusation that the religious leaders in Jesus' day had Temple prostitution of both sexes going on.
Ask yourself, why did Jesus visit the Temple if it had 'temple prostitution'?
Regarding your statement, 'It was the religious leaders who denied Jesus.' ...
Do you accept the revelation to Joseph Smith? I'm guessing that you do not accept the Book of Mormon as sacred because it contradicts the Christian bible.
Similarly, the learned Jews do not accept the New Testament as sacred because if contradicts the Hebrew Scripture.
/******* How the Jews view Jesus' death *******/
QUESTION: Did Jesus Fulfill the Law (the Torah)?
ANSWER:
The Law (the Torah) is considered by the New Testament to have been completely fulfilled by Jesus (Matthew 5:17-18).
Complete fulfillment could only occur at the moment of Jesus' death (John 19:30). That death is considered the culmination of the Law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:24-25; Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 10:12, 14).
Everything occurring to Jesus prior to that moment would have had to be under the Law. Yet, neither the physical condition (blemished), the age (over thirty years of age), the date (15 Nisan), the location (outside Jerusalem and its Temple), the executioners (Romans), the method (crucifixion), nor the cause of Jesus' death (either asphyxiation or shock), is in accordance with that prescribed by the Scriptures for the sacrificing of a paschal lamb. Therefore, the Law was not fulfilled in Jesus. The evidence shows that he could not be equated with the paschal lamb.
Judging from the huge number of splits - yes- the COGS are training leaders.
Leaders who learn how to start and manage their own splits.
Has any other small group spun off so many church leaders?
I am going to start my own split - The continuing even better church of God.
Gary
Don’t forget to share that 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 401k, 403b and real estate gifts with me. Remember without me, this blog would not exist.
Don’t forget the baptizing tour.
JimAZ
Leader, sure! Leaders in arrogance, self righteousness, minion makers. They all begin to speak the same, dress the same. I love it especially the goatee trend that Gerry started. It’s so typical of cults. God speed the day that Trump doesn’t kick them out of the country, so that maybe a few will see the BS and be able to get out!
JimAZ
Dang how could I forget the real estate gifts!!!! My apostleship has been tarnished! No more bacon for me. Sigh
Anonymous 10:19 wrote "The Law (the Torah) is considered by the New Testament to have been completely fulfilled by Jesus"
The operative words are "is considered by the New Testament." I don't think you are going to button hole God in the hallway and tell him that he didn't do it right. In fact, it is Jesus' sacrifice that is the substance. The sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb was only a shadow.
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I can see why the question of whether ministers are the ones secretly running this blog. In the early days of the internet, it was discovered that a major lesbian chat room was being run by men.
The PCGs claim that 95% of the church fell away on HWAs death, with their group being the only faithful remnant is a monster lie. It's the widespread "we are the only one true church" lie taught by thousands of cults. It's used to chain people to their group, with the result of members being forced to tolerate appalling mistreatment.
"What lies? What abuse? Where is the proof that COG leaders aren't running this blog? Why assume anything?"
Some people are dumber than hell! You sure assume a lot.
I remember HWA ranting about the heart of man and his phrase, "Vanity, jealousy, lust and greed." There are many forms of greed. One form of greed that was very evident in the WCG in the early 70's when I was at AC was the greed for power and positions. Does any one evangelist stand out in your mind as to who was probably the most rank focused? The one who reminded us that he was "Number 3" and who thought he should be Number 1 when HWA dies. Yes, it is Roderick Meredith. He, I think, was greedy for power, position, authority to rule with a rod of iron.
Neo wrote on 10/26 @1:04pm, I don't think you are going to button hole God in the hallway and tell him that he didn't do it right. In fact, it is Jesus' sacrifice that is the substance. The sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb was only a shadow.
/******* How the Jews view Jesus' death *******/
Blood shed and vicarious suffering: The Torah view
The blood shed is all-important in the symbolic ritual of animal sacrifice done in the Temple, but forgiveness of sin can be obtained without the sacrificial aspect. The sin-offering can help make atonement by being part of the Temple ritual, but it is not required for forgiveness. Only repentance is required. Repentance is a turning point of the heart and mind from sin. This is made clear in Psalms 30:2-3; 40:2, 7 and Micah 6:6-8. Any suffering undergone by the sin-offering either leading up to or at the time of death itself is not what achieves the atonement.
Atonement is never vicarious. The suffering of one being cannot atone for the sins of another (Ezekiel 18:20-22, 26-28). Neither the servant, nor a sacrificial animal, nor Jesus, can literally take on the punishment of another. They need not and they cannot vicariously atone. Only the sinner can suffer for, or repent from, his sins. Hebrews claims that Jesus fulfilled that which the animal blood supposedly only foreshadowed (Hebrews 9:12-14). Jesus execution simply does not fulfill fundamental sacrificial requirements set by the Torah. The crucifixion preparatory treatment, the national origins of his executioners, the fact that he was a human being, the geographic location of his death, the lack of a death caused by a literal shedding of blood respectively would render any potential offering as unfit for consideration as a fulfillment of a biblically required sacrifice. If the New Testament is a continuation of what Christians call the “Old Testament,” it must harmonize with the “Old Testament”—false comparisons will not suffice. The New Testament authors picked and chose what suited them in order to make it seem as if Jesus was a valid sacrifice and that he willingly offered himself as a guilt-offering.
Well, 5:55, thank you so much for taking time out from the Enema, Suppository and Douche Message Board to come here and falsely accuse the brethren! Now, go back to what you were doing! You need it!
Anonymous 1:33 cited, "If the New Testament is a continuation of what Christians call the “Old Testament,” it must harmonize with the “Old Testament”—false comparisons will not suffice."
Christianity maintains that the Old Covenant with the Mosaic litigation is now gone. While there is some continuation in concept (For example, both the OT Law and the NT Law of Christ are instantiations of God's eternal, moral law. Both are designed for human beings.), there is no continuation across the board and in detail. In fact, Christianity claims that the laws pertaining to sacrifices that are referred to in the text you cite have been completely abrogated. So any harmonization will be limited by the New Covenant legislation.
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Jesus is 2000 years late for his wedding date. It seems that his bride has been stood up, and church members keep getting strung along.
Neo 10/26 @6:15pm,
With whom will the New Covenant be made? With the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Jer 31:31; Heb 8:8).
The New Covenant is characterized by two things:
1. YHVH will put His Law/Torah in their inward parts and write it in their hearts (Jer 31:33; Heb 8:10).
2. AND it will be a time when there will no longer be a need to preach to others, for by that time, everyone will know YHVH and His Laws (Jer 31:34; Heb 8:11).
Click the links above for Jer 31:34 and Heb 8:11 to see the Interlinears. Both verses start with a conjunction 'AND'. You cannot have Jer 31:33 without v34. You cannot have Heb 8:10 without v11. Both are parts of the New Covenant.
Obviously, the New Covenant is still in the future (see this for further explanation).
Do you know of any covenant made by YHVH that was described in Tanakh as being obsolete or old, implying it has been replaced? Please cite the Tanakh verse.
Jer 34:18 mentions a ritual where a calf was cut in two and someone passed between the parts. This was how a Covenant was made/cut. The term is literally 'cutting a covenant'.
Gen 15:17-18, And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. On the same day YHVH made (Heb karath meaning to cut, H3772) a covenant with Abram, …
Can the animals that were cut be uncut, or put back together? No. So with the covenant, what YHVH made cannot be broken. When YHVH 'cut' a covenant, it cannot be 'uncut'.
Click here for what John replied to you regarding the Holy Days. You will also find there my replies to you
regarding sacrifices.
I don't assume anything. Why dish out the insults so easily? You arrogantly label others stupid when they are not.
Agree 1:13PM. The vast majority of COG members and even ex COG members are honest, hardworking, normal Christians and citizens, who live decent clean christian lives and only want to worship God in sincerity and truth.
All of COG history teaches us that deceit, church wars, evil, lies and darkness has a tendency to dwell and be stirred up amongst the COG ministry.
Who has the time to run such a blog as this? Who has the anger in them to keep it going?
We all know you eat bacon. Been known for years.
Anonymous 9:51
Let's cut to the chase. You belong to that tiny, one-off school of thought that regards the New Covenant to be the Old Covenant with a few tweaks and a new implementation (written on the heart). The idea, further, is that there are no new laws provided by the New Covenant, no legal language to reveal that the NC is anything more than parasitic on the Old Covenant. So the Mosaic legislation is, happily, all we have. Hence, Armstrongism is right on. This is fatuous and involves the denial of or idiosyncratic interpretation of New Testament language.
My first question is: if you believe this why don't you keep Old Covenant down to every jot and tittle? What especially do you do with those laws that are only valid within the context of a Temple in Jerusalem?
You wrote, "Do you know of any covenant made by YHVH that was described in Tanakh as being obsolete or old, implying it has been replaced?"
Jeremiah 31:31-34. "New" implies that something else will be "old" or obsolete. Unless you atypically interpret "new" as just a minor update.
If you respond to this comment and use garish and egotistical Bold Font (as if you are HWA), I will not respond. You decide.
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Dwight Falk writes:
There is a massive leadership crisis in this world! Daily headlines show the terrible and harmful decisions being made by political and religious leaders—decisions that harm the very people they are supposed to be helping!
What is wrong with the leadership in this world? The answer comes by going back to who actually rules this world today. Satan the devil is the god of this world! (2 Corinthians 4:4O)...... Shocking, but true!
Ephesians 2:2O...... reveals how Satan rules this world today: “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.”
******
How blind might Dwight Falk be, as he points his finger at "...a massive leadership crisis in this world...?" Is there, unknown to Dwight, a crisis within the Philadelphia (other xcog names could also be evaluated likewise) group/hirelings themselves?
This thread concluded with asking: "...Is there any COG group or leader that you would want to live under in their magical kingdom to come?"
Of course, their magical kingdom is a Mickey Mouse kingdom with a very soon to return of "another Jesus" to reign on earth for 1,000 years/forever (?). Even looking to a magical 3rd resurrection!
What would be some of the characteristics of those of God's Church? We have been told. Here are several of them:
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth IN US lusteth to envy?" James 4:5
Is there lust and envy within Dwight's Philadelphia group?
"And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." 2 Tim 2:26
Have any in Dwight's Philadelphia group been taken captive...snared?
"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Romans 7:17
Do any in Dwight's Philadelphia group have sin dwelling within them? Huh?
"Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Romans 7:20
Paul virtually repeated himself there: for emphasis regarding God's Church?
"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me." Romans 7:21
Do any in Dwight's Philadelphia group have evil present within them?
Then there are these fruits (of a spirit?):
Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Does anyone in Flurry's group express any of those fruits (above), or any of the following works?
Galatians 5:Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Is there a massive leadership crisis in the professing Philadelphia (name an xcog group/leader) group, or might they all be filled with "certain men crept in unawares?" Jude 1:4
Time will tell and, in the meantime, these leaders may want to look into a mirror to see if they indeed do possess some of those characteristics.
Will any really examine themselves for such fruits/works within and among themselves?
Time will tell...
John
Anonymous 11:22 wrote "The vast majority of COG members and even ex COG members are honest, hardworking, normal Christians and citizens, who live decent clean christian lives and only want to worship God in sincerity and truth."
Well, I am not sure about the "truth" part at the end but the rest of it is plausible. I was an Armstrongist for a huge part of my life - so I know the deal. There are all kinds of people in Armstrongism so the category you have constructed will pertain to some of them - maybe even a "vast majority."
The problem with your viewpoint is to be found in something called soteriology - the Doctrine of Salvation. If there is no process of salvation going on in Christianity then you can believe whatever you want - makes no difference. If there is an identifiable process of salvation going on in scripture and you want that salvation, it is important to be as right about the process as possible so you can conform.
Living a good life and desiring to worship God is commendable. But Christianity is not free form - you cannot dance to your own tune and have everything be all right. Like Jesus said, "They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced."
Many of the ex-Armstrongist people who write to this blog recognize that Armstrongism does not have the right soteriology (and some other doctrines). To warn someone in the face of danger is the right thing to do. There are different ways in which this concern is expressed but that is the driving force.
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Strawman argument as usual. I'm 5:55 and never falsely accused brethren of anything. Weird hyped response.
anon 1122
Have the COGs hurt you? Has your family been harmed by the COGs? Do you have an ongoing relationship(s) where one is in and one is out of a cog? Is it a family member? A parent, spouse, or children?
The Cogs say they are "the Church" and those that are not are at best false Christians. With that dichotomy, I'm sure you can understand how painful this belief must be for family and friends who are not in a cog or are ex-cog and want to have an ongoing relationship with a cog member. For many outside of the cogs or ex-cog this desired ongoing relationship includes something very dear to the ex-cogger, their Christianity.
I suppose you can see the problem, right? Because the COGs demean non-coggers as fake it is difficult to share/discuss/grow your Christian faith with someone within a cog, someone you care about, because they believe your faith is false. What is more dishonorable than that as a Christian, that repentance and believing in Christ's sacrifice is not enough? And no matter the service and "works" of the non-cog individual, the cog member dismisses the non-cogger. That is graceless, illogical, judgmental...toxic.
Are the responses and actions on this website always what they "should" be? No. Some have been hurt more than others by the COGs. Some believe a more aggressive approach to illustrate and expose the gracelessness, hypocrisy, lies, and flawed logic is what will work best to "wake up" COG members. Undoubtedly, it turns some readers off. Yet, Armstrongism has been an ill...95% of people strongly exposed to it would probably say the same. This is evidenced by their rejection of it.
I'm glad for the website.
Anon 9:51
Congratulations! You are the first person on this blog to give more than a half-derriered answer to my question, Where are the terms of the New Covenant (that y'all say we're now under) written out in scripture?
Our buddy "Ballpark" Bob Thiel says the laws (at least the ones he doesn't reject) are already written on his heart (and so he doesn't need tzitzit to remind him).
We have to remember that if Herbert W. Armstrong were just starting up his religion today, he would very likely be known as a cultural misappropriator. The worst he was accused of back in the day was founding a hodge-podge religion, but that label failed to stick.
New agreement:
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Clearly Jesus is the mediator of what they call the new covenant. Therefore, the terms are regulated according to the manifestation of the mediator or not ???
No one can invalidate the new covenant ...
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
the new covenant is under the blood and sacrifice of Christ
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
The new covenant includes the fulfillment of God's law.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
He has not yet passed heaven or earth that Jesus saw, therefore gentlemen we must comply with God's law whether they like it or not like the angry leaders of this blog.
Will you keep laughing now? .... and you know what?
Jua 10:35 "... and the scripture cannot be broken;"
Training leaders? How can that be if the church culture is to "shrink" its members and treat them as literal children?
Claiming that the church is training leaders is the typical Herb marketing attitude that reality doesn't matter. Rather, all that matters is perception.
Another example of this is the claim that AC taught its students "how to live."
A rights rejecting church teaching its members how to live is laughable.
Neo wrote on 10/27 @6:53am, If you respond to this comment and use garish and egotistical Bold Font (as if you are HWA), I will not respond. You decide.
Why would I care if you respond or not? We are not exchanging personal letters. This is a public forum. I'm waiting for anyone to reply and ask me questions. My comments/replies, even though some are directed at you, are for public consumption.
Why the double standard? One for your friend ______ and another for others. I hope you do not become like this anon guy who resorted to name-calling.
Neo wrote on 10/27 @6:53am, My first question is: if you believe this why don't you keep Old Covenant down to every jot and tittle? What especially do you do with those laws that are only valid within the context of a Temple in Jerusalem?
I don't have to. Insofar as I know, I don't have an ancestor who was at Sinai. According to Orthodox Jews, I'm under the Noachide Laws. But I do keep the Sabbaths and try to seize or grab hold of the Covenant. YHVH will decide if I qualify in the promises stated in Isa 56:4-7. The eunuchs are promised a place and a name in YHVH's house/walls better than that of sons and daughters. Why? Because even though they are not required to keep the Sabbaths and are not part of the Covenant; yet they keep it and grab hold of the Covenant.
Why do anyone need to do any laws pertaining to the Temple when there is no Temple? No Temple means no sacrifice (Lev 17). But once there's a legitimate Temple again, included in the promises in Isa 56 is YHVH will accept on His altar the burnt offerings and sacrifices of the sons of foreigners (Isa 56:7).
Neo wrote on 10/27 @6:53am, Jeremiah 31:31-34. "New" implies that something else will be "old" or obsolete. Unless you atypically interpret "new" as just a minor update.
Does 'new' moon imply that there is an 'old' moon? No, it's the same moon. New is used as a figure of speech to mean the moon being renewed.
Do 'new' heavens and 'new' earth imply that there will be 'old' heavens and 'old' earth? Do Isa 65:17 and Isa 66:22 contradict Eccl 1:4b ('And the earth abides forever')? It is a metaphor of YHVH reordering of that which already exists.
Does 'new' covenant imply that there will be an 'old' or 'obsolete' covenant? Again, new is a figure of speech or biblical poetic style to express reinvigoration and revitalization of the existing covenant. Same parties to the existing covenant - YHVH and the children of Israel. If a married couple would like to renew their marriage covenant, would they do that with different partners? Would they divorce and marry somebody else? Would there be a drastic change in their house rules? Is that the meaning of renewing a marriage covenant? Wouldn't the renewal of wedding vows involves reinvigorating the promise of being faithful to one another?
Jer 31:33 states YHVH will put His Law/Torah in their inward parts and write it in their hearts. YHVH will establish a new covenant with Israel that unlike the 'old' will be faithfully observed by Israel, because it will become innately part of their being (see also Eze 11:19-20; Contrast this with Prov 3:1, 3b where the Israelites, not YHVH, are to 'write them on the tablet of your heart').
YHVH will then grant them freedom from subjection to their foes (Lev 26:44-45). YHVH is to confer upon Israel a new covenant of protection, one which will never be broken by them once they are restored to their homeland.
This is not a website weirdo it's a blog. I'm sorry but you assume much and know nothing.
8:19: Your final paragraph: Does that mean that as an Anglo Saxon, I'm going to get "sent back" to Israel? Or do I just get to go to England? Sheesh, now I know how our African American friends feel when someone says they should be "sent back" to Africa. I guess if we all get sent back, it would make things nice for Native Americans, though, because they'll once again have the greatest piece of real estate in the world.
But, then again, maybe we get to pick? My genes are not pure Anglo Saxon, actually. All those thousands of years of marriages ya know!
Of course, do spirit beings even have race? Now, there's a really good question! Since we're supposed to be "spiritual Jews", maybe we'll all be Jewish?
Ah, the many dilemmas faced by Armstrongites! When I left, all your dogma got eaten by my catma!
1129,
This is not a website? I think you are suffering from either PTSD or OCD or both. You resort to these tactics when you have nuclear meltdowns.
8.19 PM
Can God put and write His laws into
people's heart as implied by Jer 31:33?
No, He cannot. There is not one instance in the bible where God has made a decision for another person! He cannot since it is murder. Otherwise why the "choose life or choose death" command? And why meditate on God's law day and night as in Psalm 1:2?
God warned Solomon two times to keep His laws. Why do this if He could write His laws into his heart? Why do people fall away, and why are there bastard ministers if God can write His laws in their hearts?
God can only "write" His laws into people's heart by means of His teachers.
Jer 31:33 is simply a restatement of the more accurate Proverbs 3:1.
Ha you are funny 12:00. I'm having no meltdowns. Forever pigeon holeing others you don't really know but think you do. This is a blog and not a website.
Anon, October 27, 2021 at 8:19 PM, responded to Neo wrote on 10/27 @6:53am, with the following response:
"...Does 'new' covenant imply that there will be an 'old' or 'obsolete' covenant? Again, new is a figure of speech or biblical poetic style to express reinvigoration and revitalization of the existing covenant. Same parties to the existing covenant - YHVH and the children of Israel. If a married couple would like to renew their marriage covenant, would they do that with different partners? Would they divorce and marry somebody else? Would there be a drastic change in their house rules? Is that the meaning of renewing a marriage covenant? Wouldn't the renewal of wedding vows involves reinvigorating the promise of being faithful to one another?...
Jer 31:33 states YHVH will put His Law/Torah in their inward parts and write it in their hearts. YHVH will establish a new covenant with Israel that unlike the 'old' will be faithfully observed by Israel, because it will become innately part of their being (see also Eze 11:19-20; Contrast this with Prov 3:1, 3b where the Israelites, not YHVH, are to 'write them on the tablet of your heart').
YHVH will then grant them freedom from subjection to their foes (Lev 26:44-45). YHVH is to confer upon Israel a new covenant of protection, one which will never be broken by them once they are restored to their homeland..."
******
That was an interesting reply to NEO. FWIIW, I will add another comment that may also be helpful.
In Exodus 24:3, 7, it was the Israelite people who made a covenant with God. They made it and they virtually immediately broke it (Exodus 32), because they, stiffnecked as they were, were utterly incapable, without God's Spirit guiding them, of keeping it. People generally refer to this covenant as old.
What did God (YHVH) do about that breakable covenant? He made another one, a new one, an unbreakable covenant (Exodus 34:10, 27; Deut 31:16) with the people, a covenant that did not depend upon the Israelites and what they did or did not do; however, there would be blessings and cursings associated with it. Where did God make this unbreakable covenant? Unbreakable, because God is faithful and He will not break it! I am emphasizing that the people did not make this second (therefore new) covenant with God; God made it with them!
"Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it]." I Thess 5:24
Will God really be this faithful to those ancient Israelites?
Time will tell...
John
Anon wrote on 10/28 @12:01am, Can God put and write His laws into people's heart as implied by Jer 31:33? No, He cannot. There is not one instance in the bible where God has made a decision for another person! He cannot since it is murder.
Num 23:26 But Balaam replied, “Did I not tell you that whatever YHVH says, I must do?”
2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of YHVH was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
What will be the prevailing condition in Jer 31:33? There will be a universal knowledge of YHVH, preaching will no longer be done.
Jer 31:34 "AND they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHVH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHVH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory (Heb kabod, H3519) of YHVH as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHVH, as the waters cover the sea.
There will still be unintentional sins that's why Ezekiel mentions the prince offering sin sacrifice (Eze 45:22, Lev 4).
Anon wrote, Jer 31:33 is simply a restatement of the more accurate Proverbs 3:1.
Prov 3:1,3b My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: ... write them upon the table of thine heart:
Jer 31:33 speaks of YHVH writing His Torah on their hearts. Prov 3:1,3b speaks of them writing YHVH's Torah on their hearts. Few are able to do Prov 3:1,3b. It will be diffent with Jer 31:33 when YHVH will be the one writing His Torah on their hearts.
Ps 37:30-31 The mouth of the righteous man utters wisdom, and his tongue speaks justice. The Torah of his God is in his heart; his steps do not falter.
Ps 119:11 I have hidden Your word in my heart that I might not sin against You.
Anon 11:40pm,
I do not believe in spiritual ethnicity. How can you be sure you are not a 'spiritual Amalekite'?
11.47 AM
Balaam as God's prophet, was passing on God's message. He was a spokesman. Nothing more.
God moved David, but we also move each other in everyday life. No ones mind is being programmed by an external agency.
Only unintentional sins in the kingdom?
Err, as free moral agents, people will committ intentional sins well. As proof, observe the world around you. Observe any church or Christian.
This is another example where everyday Christianity is weak on fundamentals. Consider Christs complaints against the Pharisees. Some things don't change.
Anon wrote on 10/29 @12:20am, Balaam as God's prophet, was passing on God's message. He was a spokesman. Nothing more.
Are you familiar with Balaam's story in the bible? Balaam was not God's prophet. He was a soothsayer, a 'prophet' for profit, whom the children of Israel killed (Jos 13:22, Deu 23:4, Neh 13:2). He was hired by Balak, king of Moab, to curse the Israelites but YHVH turned the curse into a blessing (Deu 23:5).
Anon also wrote, God moved David, but we also move each other in everyday life.
What is man's success rate? How about YHVH's?
Isa 55:8-11 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares YHVH.
... For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
Anon also wrote, Only unintentional sins in the kingdom? Err, as free moral agents, people will committ intentional sins well. As proof, observe the world around you.
Do the 'kingdom' and 'world around' you wrote have the same conditions? Why do you think it says in Isa 11:9 'they shall not hurt nor destroy'? Because the second part of the verse says 'for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHVH'. Do we have this condition at present? No.
Ps 119:11 I have hidden Your word in my heart that I might not sin against You.
12.29 PM
Balaam told king Balak two times that he could only speak the words that God told Him to speak. This made him God's messenger, which is the definition of a prophet.
Isa 11.9 "they shall not hurt or destroy.." is a broad generality. There will still be free moral agency, and some will choose to go Satan's way. Or do you believe that everyone in the millennium will qualify for the kingdom.
Ps 119.11 "I have hidden your word in my heart.." That is a personal choice, and some will choose otherwise.
You seem to not comprehend that man is made in Gods image, giving him/her infinite mental freedom. People are not Borg. The parable of the talents is the corollary of Man being made in Gods mental image. Note that some choose to bury their talents, as will happen in the millennium.
Today's churches have embraced tyranny, though instructed otherwise by Christ when He taught to not be like the loading gentiles. As a consequence, you do not comprehend, or reject personal responsibility. I suggest you read books on assertiveness.
God's social system is freedom (from other people) rather than tyranny/totalitarianism. Try reading the America's declaration of the independence or the bill of rights, because it's they rather than today's Pharisaic churches that have it right.
Anon wrote on 10/29 @6:07pm, Balaam told king Balak two times that he could only speak the words that God told Him to speak. This made him God's messenger, which is the definition of a prophet.
How does the bible describe Balaam? A prophet (Heb nabi, H5030)? A prophet of YHVH?
Jos 13:22 The children of Israel also killed with the sword Balaam the son of Beor, the soothsayer (Heb qasam 'to practice divination', H7080), among those who were killed by them.
Were the 400 prophets of Ahab called prophets of YHVH?
1 Ki 22:6-7 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said to them, “Shall I go against Ramoth Gilead to fight, or shall I refrain?” So they said, “Go up, for Adonai will deliver it into the hand of the king.”
And Jehoshaphat said, “Is there not still a prophet of YHVH here, that we may inquire of Him?”
Ahab's 400 prophets were deceived by a lying spirit from YHVH (1 Ki 22:19-23).
1 Ki 22:23 Therefore look! YHVH has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and YHVH has declared disaster against you.
The 400 were given a message from YHVH through a spirit who volunteered to be a lying spirit. The action was attributed to YHVH, as if YHVH was the one who did it (v23). Although the 400 were prophets, they were not prophets of YHVH. Jehoshphat asked for one (1 Ki 22:7).
Anon also wrote, There will still be free moral agency, and some will choose to go Satan's way.
No one is saying that free moral agency will disappear. I did not mention 'millennium'. The only reason I said 'kingdom' was to follow 12:20am's use of that term which I enclosed in quotes in my previous comment to contrast the future with the present.
As you said, people are not borg; notice that I even mentioned unintentional sins. If my position were that free will will be taken and people will be 'borg', why did I mention unintentional sins?
Regarding my quote of Ps 119:11, you have to read my other comments on this thread. I first included that in my 10/28 @11:47am comment after I quoted Jer 31:33 where YHVH is the one who will write His Torah in the heart. I added it to support Isa 11:9. Since the earth will be full of the knowledge of YHVH, His word will already be in the heart 'that I might not sin against You'.
Anon also wrote, As a consequence, you do not comprehend, or reject personal responsibility. I suggest you read books on assertiveness.
If you followed my comments on this thread, you will realize that I am no longer a christian. I'm not part of any religious organization. Contrary to what you are accusing me, I have been taking personal responsibility for my salvation for several years now. How about you? Are you still part of man's religion?
8.27 PM
You mentioned unintentional sin in the context of Isa 11:9 "they shall not destroy or hurt in my holy mountain." This strongly implies that you do not believe that intentional sin will exist in the millennium. You are sadly mistaken. There are many churches today that are "full of the knowledge of God" yet sin is rampant in these organisations.
As instructed by the holy spirit, I stopped attending HWAs church and it's splinters shortly after his death.
Anon wrote on 10/30 @12:26am, You are sadly mistaken. There are many churches today that are "full of the knowledge of God" yet sin is rampant in these organisations.
Who is sadly mistaken? How can there be 'full knowledge of God' in many churches? They don't even agree among themselves. Christianity itself is divided, some believe in Trinity, others in Binitarianism, and others in Unitarianism.
Is there any religion of man that can truthfully claim they have the 'full knowledge of God'? Judaism? Christianity? Islam? Others?
Although you claim that you left 'HWAs church', your mindset is still the same. You believe that a group today has the 'full knowledge of God'. They, like you, claim they are being led by the holy spirit ... being led in different directions.
I'm assuming you are still a Christian. Does your assertion conform with the teachings of your Christian bible?
1 Cor 13:12 (NASB) For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known.
Here's the list of my comments on this thread prior to the one you first responded:
1. October 26, 2021 at 10:19 AM
2. October 26, 2021 at 1:33 PM
3. October 26, 2021 at 9:51 PM
4. October 27, 2021 at 8:19 PM
5. October 28, 2021 at 11:47 AM
11.38 AM
You seem to have difficulty discerning the trees from the forest. You're lost in details while missing the larger picture.
All generations of Christians did not have full Christian understanding. Christ acknowledged this with His "to whom much is given, much is expected," and those who had limited understanding will be beaten with less rather than many stripes. However, they all had sufficient understanding to live a Godly life, since they all knew the ten commandments. God being a just judge, will not penalize them for understandable gaps in their understanding. Whether one believes God a Binitarian or a Unitarian does not hinder one from maturing as a Christian.
Btw, I did not claim that any group has the full knowledge of God. For instance I have complained on this blog about HWAs church and splinters being totalitarian and anti rights. And yes, church leaders lie about their group being led by the holy spirit. But that does not mean that individual Christians cannot be directly led by God Himself. The splitting of the veil in the Holy of Holies on Christ's death means that every person had direct access to God, with no power hungry, meddling middlemen ministers in between. Which HWAs splinter leaders effectively reject.
If my behavior deviated from my personal understanding of the bible, God would not answer my prayers. Can you say the same?
Against you seem to be trying to find truth by exclusively looking at the bible. As some have pointed out, the bible is like a washing machine manual. The ultimate reality is the machine rather than the manual. Carefully observing God's creation can clarify may issues, especially hard to understand scriptures. You by contrast are constantly juggling bible verses with a certain personal bias, and expect others to join you in your game. It's one of those "games people play" thingys. You can call your "game," "Lets bible juggle.'
Anon wrote on 10/30 @3:00pm, You by contrast are constantly juggling bible verses with a certain personal bias, and expect others to join you in your game.
I'm not playing games. Do you think it's fun being accused of something, belittled, insulted, maligned, etc?
How many bible verses did I use in my last comment? Only one, and it's even from your Christian bible.
I believe the very first comment you made to me was on 10/29 @6:07pm. How did you expect me to respond? Stating my position without citing bible verses? How would you have responded to - "This made him God's messenger, which is the definition of a prophet."? The issue - 'Was Balaam a prophet of YHVH?'. Was I expected to pull out the answer out of thin air? Or should I quote a verse where it describes Balaam? Why did I include the 400? Does being a prophet make one a prophet of YHVH? No. Also, does being used by YHVH as a messenger a few times make one a prophet of YHVH?
Let me share with you the custom in Ancient Oriental culture (I like to watch historical dramas) ... A eunuch is tasked by the emperor to deliver his command/order/word to the crown prince who lives in a different palace. Once the eunuch informs the crown prince that he is about to read the emperor's command, the crown prince immediately kowtows to the eunuch as if the eunuch is the emperor. When the eunuch finishes reading the command, the crown prince gets up. Now, after the reading, how do you expect the crown prince to describe the eunuch? Majesty? Emperor? Spokesperson? Neither, the eunuch is still a eunuch. While the eunuch was reciting the emperor's command, he was considered the emperor. The crown prince was hearing the voice of the eunuch but listening to the words of the emperor.
I will leave this as is unless you would like me to respond to other issues you've raised.
Shalom.
4.53 PM
I'm disappointed that after giving you some of my hard worked for knowledge, that you accuse me of belittling, insulting, maligning you. Since when do abusive personalities give out free stuff?
Your definition of a prophet, using the esoteric example of a eunuch, is not the every day definition. How can people communicate to one another unless they use the simple known definitions? The bible is written at the the level of a young teenager, so I will stick with the everyday definition.
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