The Major Problems with Armstrongism
(which this blog and others have identified)
The following teachings of Herbert Armstrong have been thoroughly refuted here and elsewhere:
1. The nature of God. His teachings about the Trinity, and more particularly those that were related to the Holy Spirit.
2. The nature of the human potential. His teaching that man would one day be equal to God.
3. The biblical origins of the English-speaking nations of the earth. His teaching that the people of the United States and Britain are the descendants of the birthright tribes of Israel (Ephraim and Manasseh).
4. That the return of Jesus Christ to this earth is imminent. He repeatedly engaged in date setting and misleading people about the signs of the times.
5. That Christians are obligated to observe the commandments of Torah (including the weekly Sabbath, Holy Days, tithing, and clean and unclean animals as food.
6. That the symbolism of the Holy Days reflected Armstrong's understanding of God's plan. More particularly, his understanding of the meaning of Atonement, Trumpets, and Tabernacles.
7. The nature, purpose, and fate of the angels. Especially, as it related to Satan and his demons.
8. The nature of the ekklesia. His teachings about government within the Church, the composition of the Church, disfellowshipping, and that traditional Christians were deceived members of a false church, a pseudo-ekklesia.
9. The influence of paganism on Christianity. More particularly, his teachings regarding Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Saint's Days, etc., and his rejection of the cross as a Christian symbol.
10. The interpretation of prophecy. More particularly, his headline theology and insinuating modern nations, institutions, and leaders into biblical prophecies.
11. The nature of the Gospel. More particularly, his de-emphasis on the person and work of Jesus of Nazareth and what all of that meant for humanity.
12. The nature of the Kingdom of God. He ignored the anti-authoritarian message of Christ and dismissed the fundamental change that was being wrought in the nature of humanity. Instead, he emphasized a literal government which would forcibly impose its will on everyone.
13. The nature and purpose of human sexuality. More particularly, his teachings about dating, marriage, homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, child rearing, appropriate clothing, makeup, and what constituted sexual lust.
14. The nature and role of faith and works in the life of a Christian. His understanding of love, mercy, forgiveness, repentance, faith in Christ, and physical works was twisted and inconsistent with what is revealed in Scripture.
15. The way that Scripture was used and interpreted. Mr. Armstrong's insistence on literalism and proof-texting; and his rejection of all textual criticism, along with the way he ignored context, doomed his interpretations of Scripture to failure.
Lonnie Hendrik/Miller Jones
55 comments:
One of those items misses the mark. Here's a revision:
5. That Christians are obligated to observe an inconsistent sampling of the commandments of Torah (including the weekly Sabbath, Holy Days, tithing, and clean and unclean animals as food, but excluding other commands, such as those about grooming and attire, which felt odd to an American man born in the 19th century.
"The following teachings of Herbert Armstrong have been thoroughly refuted here and elsewhere:"
Only in your own mind.
That being said, there are a few instances where HWA was slightly off base but they've been pretty much corrected in the legitimate Churches. There will always be a few kooks that take everything he said as absolute gospel but we don't worry about them anymore than we worry about the mega churches out there.
A listing Lonnie that is pretty complete, laying out in about one page the immense failures of the Armstrongism cult.
What futility in trying to rescue from this pile of waste anything to do with an alleged one true church doing something special.
In my view the biggest failure of them all is at number 11 - the gospel - where Armstrong completely misses one of the most important messages of the new testament. Perverting it into a prophetical role so as to magnify his importance in the doing some work or mission. When all along his 'work' had nothing to do with the real gospel message.
This list defines Armstrong as one of the most 'successful' religious conmen of our time with his continued regurgitation of prophecies which failed and for which he continued to lie about it all along such was his self delusion.
It is fitting it all came crashing down. I like to think God had some hand in it.
Basically you have your own religion, and are out of kilter with even mainstream Christianity.
16. The common belief that Armstrong was an apostle or God's end time messenger that restored all things (equating him to one of the two witnesses).
This doesn't line up, because Christ has not yet returned and HWA has passed.
I agree! But from their perspective, one man's eschatology is another's scatology! The COGlodytes are going to read this and proclaim, "Why that's a list of Mr. Armstrong's restored truths!"
Since the branch of religion we call "Christianity" is divided into 41,000 denominations, one could probably come up with 15 points on every one of them. Much is subjective and semantical.
When it comes to faulting Armstrongism, I try to stick with points that have have greatly harmed members such as a lording ministry and date setting. Ayatollah Dave Pack being a good example.
In my mind (!) Herbert had the most deceptive mix of truth and error........ever.
I was reading an online article yesterday on media stars who have left the "Church of Scientology" and are publically speaking out against it. COS leaders refer to these people as "suppressionists", and consider them to be enemies.
We who are part of the antiCOG movement are usually classified as "dissidents". But, I much prefer the term "suppressionist".
I really would like to do all I can to suppress the Armstrong heresies so that they can no longer harm others. That's what Irenaeus did, particularly to Simon Magus.
So far as Dennis "getting it" goes, I believe that the effects of the Kool Aid simply wore off. Per his writings here, He had already been acting as a buffer between the authoritarian leadership of the WCG, and the members of the churches he pastored for years prior to the changes.
7.12 am, there was undue influence to take all of Herb's utterances as absolute gospel. I recall how in Spokesman's club, most agreed that Herb's writings would become part of the bible one day. Many members were given life long mental scars by their ministers for questioning church teachings. Also many members were young, so they transfered the trust acquired towards their school teachers onto Herb and his ministers, and this trust was betrayed. Calling the victims of this level of mind control "kooks" is blaming the victim. The splinters haven't been shrinking and splintering for no reason.
PLEASE, this blog has uncovered several failed prophecies and concepts of HWA. Also if you're just a little bit off, or a few instances by the time you get to the end, it's massive. And the ACOG have not corrected themselves, namely in the attitude/spirit. A group of people who think the Almighty is so concerned about the nations of America/Britain over His called out ones (real church) is a joke.
Right on the money 1:38, the splinters haven't changed in "servant leadership" with the lord it over you, even after there is no more ambassador college, no more job opportunities or things set up for young members is a problem.
HWA was slightly off base but they've been pretty much corrected in the legitimate Churches. 7:12
Unfortunately the person who wrote this is even more deluded than the fake apostle was and it shows the level people can sink to when surrendering their gift of critical thinking including even basic bible study. Let's face up to the fact there is no restored or reinvented/improved one true church in the US of A its all a delusion of men - sad to see.
Nothing as substantial as the cult(s) constructed by Armstrong.
This blog is about Armstrongism and NOT about other Christian churches so it really doesnt matter how many "points" you can come up with.
Far from subjective each of these points can be supported by good biblical understanding. Something the offshoots can never accept as they wish to adhere to all the false teachings largely because in my view the false reaching of tithing brings in some money into their little empires.
The false teaching of BI is most easily disproved and adheres to be a handful of loony tune churches largely in the USA
What profit is it in the long run to be jaded and cynical?
Herbert Armstrongs beliefs repeatedly got challenged and changed, even whilst he was alive.
You present a impression that all beliefs had been accepted totally and that all Churches in the Church of God movement accepted everything wholeheartedly. Many did not even accept Herbert's lifestyle whilst alive. Even his own family spoke out.
I would estimate that the very ones now, in 2024, who continously turn over the soil and rake the muck on Herbert Armstrong absolutely spent their youth proclaiming him an apostle and behaved like perfectly trained WCG youth on the members.
Most major denominations have "corrected" in recent times. The reason isn't because of a repented attitude but rather that the Internet has exposed their lies, distortions and crimes( to potential new members. Hence the Jehovah's Witnesses no longer publicly claim that their governing body is infallible, but as their dissidents point out, it's still their church culture. Questioning this belief can result in expulsion. Churches have adapted to the internet by becoming more subtle and devious.
Anonymous 1:38 wrote, “here was undue influence to take all of Herb's utterances as absolute gospel.”
Miller did an effective job in underscoring the proud, contrarian spirit of Armstrongism. I would have included maybe something about Armstrongist racial policy but I think we all know from our experience as exiters that Armstrongism has many other “features.” The list could be expanded with little effort, if space and time permitted.
There is an interesting parallel to Armstrongism that is happening in the USA today. No matter what autocratic, anti-constitutional and racist statements Donald Trump makes, his poll numbers do not go down and sometimes seem to expand a bit. The more extreme his statements become, the more his White Nationalist base (aka, MAGA Republicans) applauds, whoops and hollers. And the Democrats, as is their wont, don’t get it. The Democrats think that if they reveal the “true” and unvarnished Trump to his base, his base, comprised of reasonable people, will abandon him. So, this is their lame strategy. And, so far, it seems like nobody on the Democratic side except maybe James Carville recognizes that this strategy has been a total flop. The fact is, the White Nationalist crowd likes Trump’s “bad boy persona.” They cheer for the gratuitous attacks on others, the threats, the disruption, the dictatorial flair. Watch the faces light up in the crowd on TV when Trump says something disgusting. Trump knows their hot buttons. His base wants him to keep repeating the calumny about Haitians eating pets so he does and embellishes it. And the Democrats and the News Media, who still live in a somewhat normative world, do not understand why digging up the truth is so ineffective with the MAGA base.
So, now I am going to indict not the Armstrongist ministry but the Armstrongist lay membership. The Armstrongist lay membership wants Armstrongism to be different from the Christian churches. They are proud of the list that Miller has published. In their minds what is different is better if they decided to be followers of what is different. They keep showing up to listen to the phony prophecies and the odd heresies. We may characterize them as the oppressed but they lend abundant support to their errant leaders by their faithful presence at weekly Sabbath services. They are proud to be contrarian. It makes them right and everyone else wrong. The more contrarian the better. For me, it is horrific to stand by and watch a self-immolation.
Scout
Anon 1022:03
These points ARE very subjective! This is shown by the very way they are presented, they are subject to opinion and interpretation.
--the nature, role, and purpose of ?
--Biblical origins?
--? is imminent
--Christians are obligated?
--symbolism?
--influence of?
--interpretation of?
Some of these points I agree with but as written not all. "The Major problems with XYZ" can be presented to make anyone look bad. Hence, 41,000 denominations.
You may not agree with Armstrong on anything but are you in agreement with Lonnie on everything? I doubt it.
Also, anon 820:14
If one is going to attack a belief system with another belief system, then all is open to scrutiny.
BP8,
It's disingenuous to attempt to dampen the extreme cult heterodox teachings of Armstrongism simply by saying there are many denominations with different teachings. Many in one denomination would feel comfortable in another denomination.
This is not the case in Armstrongism because Armstrongists believe they alone are right and all others are wrong. Armstrongists have many false teachings to distinguish themselves from other churches and each is fundamental to their beliefs.
This is not the same as one denomination preferring only choral music vs instrumentation, or taking the eucharist each time they meet versus occasionally, etc.
Don't equivocate when you know better.
BB 740
I'm not trying to be disingenuous but straight forward. I'm pointing out that one man's truth is another man's heresy. Everyone believes the truth according to themselves and everyone believes a heresy according to someone else.
This goes way beyond a preference for music without instruments. Go on YouTube and witness the religious wars between Catholics and Protestants and protestants versus protestants. It's quite revealing and explains much.
Armstrongism past and present has many self evident major flaws and problems, including all the condemnations listed in Matthew 23 and more. They have and will reap accordingly. But that doesn't make the holy spirit a person, nor cast the sabbath and holydays in a negative light, nor deny that holyday symbolism saturates the New testament, nor makes the cross a "Christian" symbol, nor invalidate one's use of so called "headline" theology, nor makes homosexuality acceptable. The slant presented determines much!
I appreciate all of the comments. Looking over the comments, I feel the need to remind some of the commentators that this was meant to be a bullet point summary of the posts on this blog and others which have focused on the MAJOR problems with Armstrongist theology. All of those posts are full of scriptural references which take to task these components of Herbie's theology. We should note that there have also been posts related to other heretical teachings of Armstrong, and there is an entirely separate category of posts which have taken Herbie, GTA, Flurry, Pack, and others to task for their personal failures in the areas of morals, intellectual matters, and personality. I don't think that there is much subjectivity in identifying these particular teachings as "major" problems. However, I think that identifying which one is the most problematic would certainly be a more subjective exercise.
Finally, as I have said many times over the years, I am NOT an apologist for traditional Christianity! I am not a member of, or advocate for, any church or denomination. In my humble opinion, NONE of them present a flawless theology with which I am in complete harmony. Nevertheless, I think that there is a fairly substantial amount of agreement within the Christian community about what does and does not constitute orthodox Christian theology, and even most Armstrongists would agree that they are NOT in harmony with most of those (Indeed, they are quite proud of that difference). I believe that there is room in the ekklesia for a wide range of opinions on various issues, but Armstrongism diverges from traditional Christian theology to such a degree that any objective evaluation would characterize it as heretical and flawed.
Scout, it’s called “A Cult of Personality “
Having been fooled so easily once, you are so easily fooled again. Swapping one little cult for a larger one. Always depending upon the Ministry of Truth. Never thinking for yourself. "A man who speaks for God could never be corrupt and lie!" Did Mr. Armstrong actually have God's interest in mind? Surely, those lies about Mr. Armstrong were all conspiracy theories? And you think you would have learned your lesson by now, and yet you fail again. I ask, can political parties be corrupted? Can an establishment, like the MSM be corrupted? CNN, FauxNews, Google, NPR, etc... they all do it. Ever wonder why? Whose interests do they have in mind? With a world-wide economy worth trillions at stake, corruption could never take root there? "Presstitutes." A confession from the profession and a book that exposed the corruption within German MSM. I'm certain that the same could be said of much of western MSM. Time will soon reveal.
Scout, I had had great hopes for the awakening and new insights of Nick Fuentes, who had angrily and quite eloquently expressed the damages and massive betrayal he personally, along with the Jan. 6 insurrectionists had experienced as a result of following Donald Trump. That should have been a huge, incendiary wakeup call, but it died a quiet death after barely one news cycle.
The only thing that's going to blow up MAGA is massive, catastrophic damage by Trumpism to the commoners who worship him. Nobody really cares about the leaders of the Proud Boys, Rudy Giuliani, Steve Bannon, Peter Navarro, Mike Lindell, or any other suffering ringleaders who are Trump toadies. It's only when the hurt and destruction gets personal and hits massive numbers of little guy White Christian Nationalists that there will be total capitulation. Unfortunately to effect that, America will most likely have to bleed a lot!
When it all unravels, it will be as generationally demoralizing as the great depression, WW-II, the assassination of JFK Vietnam, 9/11, or the Covid pandemic. Think of it as political chemotherapy! It's the only way people are going to learn. The bad news is that for all their derisive comments about RINOs, Conservative Extremists use the Rhino method. They retreat briefly and charge again! The next round will most likely be even worse!
See this is the problem with the internet, you can go to one site and think it is representative of the norm. On the other hand, I meet with a group of intellectuals comprising Catholics, greek orthodox, methodist, baptist, home church, and me (a repentant former Armstrongist). We comprise musicians, writers, doctors, lawyers, educators, etc in our group of about a dozen…and we discuss all topics and have different understandings but recognize one another as brothers in Christ having the Holy Spirit.
This is impossible in Armstrongism.
Armstrongism is divisive and exclusivist.
Still, these Armstrongists point to a belief here or an action there that represents a small percentage of Christianity while making excuses for its corrupted perverse founder and the corruption/sin/multilevel hierarchy of the organization.
But, with 2.4 billion Christians today, there are at least a 100 million that would be even recognized by Armstrongists as probably more moral than the majority of the members of their own group.
My point being, the Amstrongist loves to point to peripheral or perhaps simply new Christians to try to show their superiority, but there are those many millions that put your morality and virtue to shame. What do you do about them? Still claim they don’t have the Holy Spirit? Based on what? The fine example of the Armstrongs or many other WCG and splinter families that fall far short?
Not putting this on you bp8, just questions to the Armstrongists.
" I'm pointing out that one man's truth is another man's heresy. "
Exactly, BP8. That's where the calling comes in. Sitting here reading the postings of these know-it-alls is quite amusing at times. I imagine God looking down on all of this and just shaking His head, maybe smiling a bit, knowing that He will straighten it out in the not too distant future.
Hopefully the folks here will accept the truth when it's made available to them.
God knows who has it right, and who He will allow to learn it in this age. That's all that really matters.
" On the other hand, I meet with a group of intellectuals comprising Catholics, greek orthodox, methodist, baptist, home church, and me (a repentant former Armstrongist). "
"…and we discuss all topics and have different understandings but recognize one another as brothers in Christ having the Holy Spirit."
Now THAT is the definition of confusion. You are all Christian but have totally different understandings of the scriptures, even to the point that they contradict each other? And the Holy Spirit leads you to this belief?
There might be a spirit leading you, but it definitely is not the Holy Spirit.
Well Lonnie, traditional christianity is in league with Satan, they just don't realize it yet. And no, they are not condemned for it at this time.
Scout best serves on technical and quantifiable material, even expansively so. But, he does not understand the motivations of half this nation. We’ve already seen Trump for four years…not an autocrat.
I agree! I've often said that when Jesus returns, and the truth becomes a matter of direct connection with the source, I have no doubt that some folks we all know will tell Him, "But Mr. Armstrong says......."
The Holy Spirit leads, guides, pushes - It does NOT control! We can and do resist its leadership, guidance, and pushing sometimes. Indeed, the degree to which we yield to the Holy Spirit dictates the fruits/evidence of its presence in us. Moreover, although the Holy Spirit can certainly assist us in growing in grace and knowledge, we should all remember that spiritual understanding is NOT listed as one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit! In other words, the confusion arises within our own minds - deceived and influenced by Satan and the world around us. Fortunately, Armstrongists will understand this someday.
Anon 706:44
Understand the difference between the physical political church and the individual Christian is the key to your internet concerns.
The political church machines of this world, including Armstrongism, divide over personalities, the love of money, and who is the greatest. They have a political power base to sustain and being different from other groups justifies their existence. The doctrinal wars waged on YouTube are for the purpose of maintaining that separation.
The true religion of Jesus Christ is not concerned with building political platforms, power, or a following, but with the primacy and welfare of the individual. We are to love THY neighbor as thyself and do good to all men. You seem to have discovered that with your group of intellectuals.
I also meet on a weekly basis with a small group we call the old man's club. I will not debate who has or does not have the holy spirit, but it's the closest thing to "church" I now experience. We encourage, challenge, and recognized each others individually and self worth.
One of the founding members is an ex Catholic priest, who is a character to say the least, and has a lot to say about the Catholic machine. Even though he still attends Mass and considers himself Catholic, his frustration with the political church has reached such levels that at times he has sincerely questioned the very existence of God and Christ. Sounds like a few we know on this site doesn't it?
God operates in many different ways. I would say you are in a good place.
By faith, one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, we understand..................
I suspect you feel this way because Armstrongism taught you that differences in belief or practice meant there was confusion. But, that is not true and you need to get beyond that false teaching. Romans 14 teaches fellow believers having differences in what foods are permitted to be eaten, the drinking of wine, the celebration or noncelebration of a day. But, the measure was whether it was done or not done for the Lord.
You have some wrong beliefs, as do I. Certainly Armstrong did. Armstrong kept Pentecost on Monday for most of his life…confusion? Armstrong condemned makeup even saying it could land one in the lake of fire but then said it was fine…confusion? There are many other such things; would you consider Armstrong a Christian along with yourself? Or would that be confusion?
Polycarp (Apostle John’s close disciple and part of the true Church according to Armstrong) differed from Anicetus on when to observe the passover and though neither convinced the other they shared the eucharist together as neither believed this difference kept them from being Christian brothers. Were they in confusion?
When one recognizes that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life there is little confusion and yes the Holy Spirit is present.
Anon541,
The cogs have those in the same congregation that vote and those that don’t based on their own “spiritual” understanding. The same with eating out on the sabbath, disagreement on those with a drinking problem using grape juice on Passover, divorce/remarriage differences exists within congregations, differences in acceptable activities and purchases on sabbath, there are Arian beliefs in the cogs that Christ was created, the postponements debate is still around, differences in acceptable music at church, some ignore and some are troubled by Armstrong’s incest and other sins, etc.
You shouldn’t cast stones before you consider the nature of your own home.
Bp8,
Appreciate your post. It sounds like there are similarities in your “old man” group and the group I meet with. I used the term “intellectuals” as a descriptor because the group consists of intelligent lifetime learners who want to become better Christian men (we have). But, it’s also a fun group that supports and prays for one another. I feel blessed to have it. I’m thankful you have your group too!
But according to these blogs God doesn't have a head to shake nor a mouth to smile......
BP8 Monday, October 28, 2024 at 10:49:07 AM PDT said: "...I'm not trying to be disingenuous but straight forward. I'm pointing out that one man's truth is another man's heresy. Everyone believes the truth according to themselves and everyone believes a heresy according to someone else. This goes way beyond a preference for music without instruments. Go on YouTube and witness the religious wars between Catholics and Protestants and protestants versus protestants. It's quite revealing and explains much. Armstrongism past and present has many self evident major flaws and problems, including all the condemnations listed in Matthew 23 and more. They have and will reap accordingly. But that doesn't make the holy spirit a person, nor cast the sabbath and holydays in a negative light, nor deny that holyday symbolism saturates the New testament, nor makes the cross a 'Christian' symbol, nor invalidate one's use of so called 'headline' theology, nor makes homosexuality acceptable. The slant presented determines much!"
Completely agree!
Anonymous Monday, October 28, 2024 at 7:06:44 PM PDT said: "...Armstrongism is divisive and exclusivist."
Correction: The truth is "divisive and exclusivist" and the Way, the Truth and the Life everlasting is the Messiah Jesus of Nazareth and His Father's Holy Law and Holy Word. There is no true way of life (ie salvation) outside of God the Father and His Word, the Son of God.
"Polycarp (Apostle John’s close disciple and part of the true Church according to Armstrong) differed from Anicetus on when to observe the passover and though neither convinced the other they shared the eucharist together as neither believed this difference kept them from being Christian brothers."
That is not true. Polycarp tried to show Anicetus his error and when Anicetus did not change back to the truth Polycarp left him be. They most definitely did not "share the eucharist together". There are stories (uncomfirmed) that Anicetus had Polycarp killed.
If someone wants to "refute" HWA, at least use the truth (of course, that would greatly hinder the ability to refute). Misrepresentations are the rule when attacking The Church. Just make something up and say that it proves HWA was wrong about everything.
Hmmm, sounds like the political climate today. Shouldn't be surprised though, it's the same spirit leading both.
"...we should all remember that spiritual understanding is NOT listed as one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit!"
Oh but it most certainly is. Gal. 5:22. See the comment right below yours: [Tuesday, October 29, 2024 at 12:58:31 PM PDT]
Galatians 5:16 So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions. 18 But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.
19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or provoke one another, or be jealous of one another.
--NLT
The fruit of the Holy Spirit is clearly all about behavior! Moreover, concerning our understanding of things spiritual, Paul had this to say:
If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. - I Cor. 13:2, NLT
Aaaw, the NLT. It has translators' bias. They've added "of Moses" to Gal 5:18. They added "begin" to Lev 23:6. Naughty! Naughty!
I recently read a tweet about how few therapists are actually qualified to assist survivors of cults. It was an interesting thought. In some ways I would say only a survivor could help another survivor.
Anonymous 5:57
You mean that a guy who tried to overthrow the government of the USA in order to retain the presidency does not qualilfy in your judgment as a dictator? For some reason everybody gives Trump a break. He doesn't need Jesus because everyone forgives him anyway.
Also, although a little more muted than last time when they were wrong, PCG is back to claiming a Trump-as-Jeroboam-II election win per "Bible prophecy".
Let's try the New International Version with more context:
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
--Galatians 5, NLT
Let's try the English Standard Version:
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
6 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
--Galatians 5, ESV
Seems pretty clear in all three of these translations - with or without "of Moses"
You mean the commander and chief of our military tried to overthrow our government with a bunch of unorganized untrained unarmed civilians? I’m sorry, but anyone that thinks this is a tool and victim of the media and the Left.
But, even worse, we have a current President Biden who is blowing dog whistles for his jack booted thugs to “take out” half the population when he proclaims we are garbage. Everyone knows you take out garbage. He is giving his stamp of approval and inciting his evil henchmen to kill any who disagree with him.
The Left tries to cover up Biden’s use of such terms but know the whistle was heard as was Kamala Harris’s whistle that Trump’s Madison Square Garden rally was a Nazi rally.
I started writing this last part to be tongue and cheek, but given the low threshold that the Left media has used for language meant to incite violence, maybe I’ve reached their standard
BP8 wrote, “I'm pointing out that one man's truth is another man's heresy.”
This seems to be an argument that it is anyone’s call as to what Christianity actually is. Therefore, Armstrongism is just as valid as, say, Methodism is as the message of Jesus. This might be true if there were no Holy Spirit – just human beings making their own decisions. As it is there is a dominant thread of theological development throughout history that defines Christianity. There are differences among denominations but the essentials are held in common. In this picture, Armstrongism is a distant outlier.
Christianity is real and has a real nature. Everyone may have their own deep theology. We see through a glass darkly. But this does not abnegate the clarity of the Sermon on the Mount or Pauline theology.
Scout
553,
Sorry, I’ll take Eusebius’s account over yours. He said that Polycarp and Anicetus took the eucharist together. Further, your besmirching of Anicetus as perhaps being responsible for Polycarp’s death is not held by those who were there as Irenaeus actually used the example of Polycarp and Anicetus to show a peaceful disagreement when Polycrates (another of Polycarp’s students) and Victor had the same disagreement 40 years later.
You are brushing over the examples I gave. And they are accurate…did not Armstrong teach a Monday pentecost most of his life?? Search hwa’s pastor general reports in the early 80’s regarding the Lake of Fire and make-up.
Maybe you are pointing to the current controversies/confusion in various cog congregations that were given at 7:17 by anonymous. Those are all accurate too. Do you have any actual arguments to refute or are we just to take your word for it?
I know this post is somewhat ascerbic but it is directed to the mindset and not you (I don’t know you). 20 years ago I would have reacted similarly to you.
We were told many lies and false doctrine by Armstrong. It’s a tough pill to accept. I know, as even now I am surprised occasionally by certain false understandings that were based In Armstrongism. But, thankfully, the Lord is merciful.
Remember Scout, the Sermon on the Mount , like Christ's reform, clarification, and magnification of the Sabbath day, was given under the OLD covenant, which according to SOME would make it unnecessary under the new covenant. That's not how I believe but you can see how human beings making their own decisions can work.
Also,
Exactly what are those basics all Christiandom hold in common? God? Christ? The Bible? Salvation? Armstrongism, like the Catholics and Protestants , profess those things, but differ in interpretation, but most DO differ in interpretation!
Clarity in Christianity? I don't see it.
BP8,
Christ's magnification of God's Law was essential and consistent with his statement about coming to this earth to fulfill it. As for the basics, I contemplated that very question once upon a time, and I believe these represent the closest thing to near universal principles that I have found:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-essentials-of-christianity.html
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