I wonder sometimes how the Cogs have been lead to speak of the Law and how this sets them apart from the “false christians”. The cog law-keeping has only a few elements different from sincere Christians. Is there really a greater reward because you went to church on a different day and a few other days thru the year and didn’t eat pork? Is that really the difference? Is it really just that easy? What of those christians that sincerely observe most of the law simply by walking in God’s Spirit? They truly believe the law as such was only given to Israel so they congregationally worship the Lord on Sunday rather than Saturday. Is that the great deception? Do COG members really believe the devil is congratulating himself for the existence of loving, sincere, generous Christians who do much good in the world and will even accept martyrdom before denying the Lord and yet are fake because all he had to do was trick them about the sabbath.
Further, which is worse to God, seeing through a glass dimly and not understanding some things or claiming the Lord demands adherence to the Law and willfully choosing to not observe portions you don’t want to. Some examples COG members are not observing are 1) simply not having blue tassels on your garments, 2) not separating your women from the family during their period, 3) not living in sukkoths during tabernacles, etc.
Lets not forget that before 1974 or so, Pentecost was kept on Monday. Did those who died before it was changed to sunday never quite achieve first fruit status because they believed something wrong (much like The COGs judge sunday keepers)? Do members in the COGs question such things? Would they rely on a "sincerity argument" for those that died pre-1974 and never observed Pentecost because they chose the wrong day to observe it? Why then is the sincerity argument not applied to other Christians? In the way the COGs view things and the importance of correct days, Is not keeping the real Pentecost proof you didn’t have the holy spirit? What could possibly be the alternative explanation (after all, the COGs believe Sunday keepers do not have the holy spirit because they are wrong about a day)?
I'd love to see how a COG member would answer these things...
Jim
from a previous posting
52 comments:
What you have pointed out is reality, Jim. It is incumbent upon the Armstrongites to deal with the COGnitive dissonance of their faith.
BB
Jim, you and your family must have come into the church sometime after 1972.
As a WCG member, your reward was to become a firstfruit because you had given your tithes and offerings to God's End Time Apostle to do his Work. Everything else was a secondary detail. The Work was what was important, not your individual attempt at righteousness. Even HWA wasn't especially righteous, having coffee and doughnuts on Atonement and doing unspeakable things with his daughter. None of that mattered, though, because what mattered was the Work. Pay Herbie and be a firstfruit, or don't pay Herbie and come up in the Great White Throne Judgment. Just don't become a turncoat, signing up and then leaving, or you'll go to the Lake of Fire.
That was the message and the premise and the purpose of WCG. Obey Herbie and send in the money. If Herbie told the church to have a special pork barbecue day, they would have put you out of the church for NOT eating pork. If he had told the church to send all your second tithe to Pasadena one year instead of keeping the Feast of Tabernacles, they would have put you out of the church if you disobeyed and kept the Feast. It was all about obedience and paying the money.
No, it doesn't matter.
"There are 8.8 billion Earth-like planets in the Milky Way: study. In the Milky Way, about 1 in 5 stars that are like our sun in size, color and age have planets that are roughly Earth's size and are in the habitable zone where life-crucial water can be liquid, according to intricate calculations based on four years of observations from NASA's now-crippled Kepler telescope."
Add to this the approximately 2 Trillion galaxies in our Universe and nothing evolved hairless apes in the form of Kings, Priests and Clergy come up with on our insignificant dot probably represents a genuine threat to one's eternal reward. The Cultic Blood sacrificing or no forgiveness, atonement by execution and sweet meat smelling God of Israel and all the gods of Earth are way too small, petty and insignificant in the whole big picture.
We humans are not the center of it all or the reason the Universe exists.. As Carl Sagan noted, "We have not been given the lead role in the Universe." Keeping or not keeping, eating or not eating, attending or not attending and believing or not believing and giving or not giving are simply choices we make based on the many psychological, emotional and even chemical factors that make up our personalities as well as our buying into and reactions to the fear, guilt and shame inflicted on us by others who think they know better than anyone else.
I realize, amongst the religious generally and COG crowd specifically one does not live one's own truth. You find God's truth or the truth as others deem it to be. Too many scriptures forbidding that. "There is a way that seems right...", "The wisdom of man is foolishness with God...", "The fool has said in his heart...", etc However, one can live the life of neatly boiled down to the old hymn, "Trust and obey for there's no other way..." , which is the faith based way or one can live the life of seeking and finding, which also rings a bell somewhere. There is nothing immoral or spiritually risky living an evidence based life. The real risks to one's spiritual, emotional and physical wellbeing seems more likely living the faith based life. I'm all for having a little faith in what one can't control, but responsible decision making is also a plus. Doing so, however, will invariably draw one away from faith based decisions and practices.
However, and it is a choice that most are not comfortable with if inclined towards religious control and expectations...
Live your truth and be who you want to be. You can get started at any moment to decide and commit to living a more authentic life.
“Find your truth and then live it.” Trudy Vesotsky
“Live your truth. Express your love. Share your enthusiasm. Take action towards your dreams. Walk your talk. Dance and sing to your music. Embrace your blessings. Make today worth remembering.” Steve Maraboli
“Some people are living the illusions of others, instead of living the truth of themselves.” Jackov Kanani
“Follow the truth of the way. Reflect upon it. Make it your own. Live it. It will always sustain you.” Gautama Buddha
“Find your truth within you.” ATGW
“Success is nothing more than living your life according to your own truth and your own terms.” Anonymous
“Tune into your truth. Live it. Breath it. Beam it.” Emma Kate
“You know the truth by the way it feels.” Anon
well, some men truly believe that they are female...that doesn't make it so.
it all comes down to the calling...those called by God at this time know better...they are not confused like the author of this posting.
the day is coming when the author will also understand that obedience does matter.
COGnitive dissonance is NOT obedience.
God winks at (overlooks/forgives) the times of ignorance. (Acts 17:30).
Even with age and time, I realize that I AM IGNORANT. By confessing that, and embracing it,
I have become more forgiving of myself and others, and have been able to capture more of the child like
awe of life, that Jesus encouraged us to be. There is indeed self evident truth, like the 10 Commandments and Love God and Neighbor. Beyond that, by very much, and we must confess to "best guesses" and possible ignorance.
Like the old Bob Dylan song--
"Ah, but I was so much older then... I'm younger than that now"
YOU TUBE:
https://youtu.be/7seZjqkk2n0
LYRICS
Crimson flames tied through my ears, rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon, " said I, proud 'neath heated brow
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now
Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth, "rip down all hate, " I screamed
Lies that life is black and white spoke from my skull, I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers foundationed deep, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now
Girls' faces formed the forward path from phony jealousy
To memorizing politics of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists, unthought of, though somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now
A self-ordained professor's tongue too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty is just equality in school
"Equality, " I spoke the word as if a wedding vow
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now
In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand at the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy in the instant that I preach
My existence led by confusion boats, mutiny from stern to bow
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now
Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms quite clear, no doubt, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then I'm younger than that now
6:21,
Where is this disobedience you seem to be projecting upon others? Those that claim they are law keepers and willfully choose not to do things specifically in the Law such as I listed are being disobedient. Most of these things they choose not to do are easily enough done. Why do they willfully choose to disobey the Law they claim to keep? That is my question.
Compare this to those who through their study simply believe that the Law was given exclusively to the Children of Israel (Deut. 5:1-3) and that through Christ's life and resurrection understand that belief in the Son is the standard by which we are now judged. It was the belief of Abraham that was accounted as righteousness. Whether you like to admit it or not, there is very good scriptural support for this understanding.
Do you believe those that heard the call and chose to follow Christ and believe His sacrifice saves them and are baptized are disobedient? Why? Further, when such people accept Christ they are accepting the first 3 commandments and through the Holy Spirit are generally able to keep the commands 5-10 of the Law. Are these people with changed lives disobedient and false according to your judgment?
Of course, that leaves the 4th command which some Christians sincerely believe is now Sunday. Was Eric Liddell of "Chariots of Fire" fame disobedient when he believed he must obey the Lord by giving up fame and fortune by refusing to run on Sunday and spending the rest of his life as a missionary in China (even dying there at a young age)?
Is that what disobedience looks like to you?
Do you really believe a loving Father, even a strict one, will come down on Eric Liddell for truly striving to obey as best he knew how? Do you really believe this strong and gracious soul falls below the Lord's standards simply because he has a different understanding of the day of the week to observe the Sabbath and that people within churches that split without a display of strength and graciousness but observe their form of sabbath keeping are reaching that standard?
Do you really think it is much skin off my nose to not work my regular job on Saturday and not eat pork? Okay, done. Yeah for me. Or is it necessary for me to hold firmly to the words of HWA and see how that sets me apart from the likes of Eric Liddell? It has always been strange to me that improperly keeping the Sabbath never seemed to be a problem for those coming out of paganism in the New Testament. Do we really think they just did it better than the Children of Israel whose society was immersed in Sabbath culture? Clearly post-Pentecost a greater standard of obedience and belief through the Lord's Holy Spirit became preeminent.
It is simply incorrect to claim disobedience of those that follow the Law of Christ, the Law of Faith, the Law of Grace, and the Law of the Spirit of life which has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2). This is something more powerful than mere obedience; it is submitting our will to the Lord.
Yes Jim, there is a better resurrection whether you like it or not.
Heb 11:35 - Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Rev 20:6 - Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
"Lets not forget that before 1974 or so, Pentecost was kept on Monday. Did those who died before it was changed to sunday never quite achieve first fruit status because they believed something wrong (much like The COGs judge sunday keepers)? Do members in the COGs question such things? Would they rely on a "sincerity argument" for those that died pre-1974 and never observed Pentecost because they chose the wrong day to observe it? Why then is the sincerity argument not applied to other Christians?"
Very true. Sincerity for me, but not for thee! We always engaged in special pleading for ourselves that for no conceivable reason a decent god wouldn't apply to others.
It was a bedrock article of our faith that Sunday-keeping christians were deceived and therefore lost. The next brick on top of that one was that we were somehow not lost, even when we, too, were deceived!
What decent god would behave so unfairly? So it was also a fundamental article of our faith that our god was an indecent and unjust god. We made up our own god in our own tribalistic image, much the same way that the ancients made up Yahweh originally in their own tribalistic image.
Anon6:21AM says...
"it all comes down to the calling...those called by God at this time know better...they are not confused like the author of this posting. the day is coming when the author will also understand that obedience does matter."
It doesn't matter what terms you put it in. How does your god decide who to "call" and who to write off as deceived and lost? Special pleading? Random capriciousness? *Shrug* who cares as long as it works in your favor? You can see why this is a myth, right? Why this won't pan out when the chips are down? It's just a product of your own ability to be irrational and pie-in-the-sky in your own favor.
The only day that is coming is the day that your indecent and unjust god goes the way of his contemporaries, onto the library shelves in the literature section, next to the other capricious and unjust gods in the other myths.
11:02,
Not exactly sure what made you bring up resurrection here as my main question leans toward why the COGs base their being true Christians on lawkeeping but willfully do not keep portions of the Law.
Nevertheless, am I to assume you believe you are headed for a better resurrection? Better resurrection than whom?
The verse you quote, Heb. 11:35, seems to be stating that resurrection into the spirit is better than being raised again to physical life; the beginning of the verse speaks of "women that received their dead to life again". The verse explains itself.
Does it work in your concept of reward to simply view the elect as those that "believeth in the Son" Jn 3:16? If not, why not? It would save you a lot of judging of people as to whether they are the Lord's. We are commanded not to do that kind of judging anyway. Do you think that is a command to take seriously? I think it is.
Quite a lot of assumptions there Jim, just from my one little sentence.
"Yes Jim, there is a better resurrection whether you like it or not."
You do realize that there is/was law other than the Mt. Sinai covenant don't you? Abraham kept them you know?
Paul said the law was added because of transgressions. Hmm, do you think one of the transgressions prior to Sinai was not wearing tassles? Or cutting the corners of beards? Or maybe women offering something to God while on their period?
What transgressions do you think they were committing prior to Sinai? Do you think it possible that some, if not most of the laws added were the ones being transgressed? While some of the others were merely to set Israel apart from other nations? like tassles, not cutting corners of beards, uncleanliness from period? Hmm, do you think that possible? No?
"It was a bedrock article of our faith that Sunday-keeping christians were deceived and therefore lost."
Bullshit! We never taught they were lost. Why do you lie? Do you think lying adds strength to your position?
"Does it work in your concept of reward to simply view the elect as those that "believeth in the Son" Jn 3:16? If not, why not? "
So Jim, are the devils going to be among the elect?
Jas 2:19 - Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Unless of course you don't think Jesus is who James was referring to when he said one God.
Sounds to me like there's more to it than just believing.
God's most favorite end-time prophet and authority on EVERYTHING takes great exception to this posting. Of course, he has the answer to refute it all.
https://www.cogwriter.com/news/doctrine/banned-is-there-really-a-greater-reward-because-you-went-to-church-on-a-different-day-and-a-few-other-days-thru-the-year-and-didnt-eat-pork/
"COGs base their being true Christians on lawkeeping"
That statement is bullshit too. If that was the case no one would be a Christian because we all sin/transgress the law!
Bob, the problem with your answer on your site is:
Exo 34:28 - And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
You say we're to keep the Ten Commandments yet God inspired it to be written that the Ten Commandments were the words of the Mt. Sinai covenant.
Here's the problem Bob, you didn't explain that the church of God believes that the Ten Commandments were in force in the garden of Eden and the reason God added them was because they were being transgressed.
Bob, do you keep the Sabbath because Ex. 20 commands you to? If so you're under the Mt. Sinai covenant and still in your sins. Or do you keep the Sabbath because Jesus said it was made for man?
You'd think that with your wonderful ThD you'd understand this simple concept. If you were really double blessed and really a Prophet you'd understand such a simple concept!
Too bad he rips us off. Hijacks the thread and posts it on his own site where we can't comment about it. Sheesh! Are all "prophets" control freaks, or just the ones who refuse to be held accountable?
BB
Blogger Tonto said...God winks at (overlooks/forgives) the times of ignorance. (Acts 17:30). Even with age and time, I realize that I AM IGNORANT. By confessing that, and embracing it, I have become more forgiving of myself and others, and have been able to capture more of the child like awe of life, that Jesus encouraged us to be. There is indeed self evident truth, like the 10 Commandments and Love God and Neighbor. Beyond that, by very much, and we must confess to "best guesses" and possible ignorance.
As a naive youth I accepted that what I was learning from the pages of The Plain Truth magazine was Bible truth. When Tkach's administration started teaching diametrically opposite teachings to what Armstrong taught as truth, I started to look at all sides on a subject and as best I could compare it all with what Armstrong taught. Suffice to say there is a lot Armstrong taught that I no longer believe to be truth (e.g. I don't believe QEII is sitting on the throne of David; I don't believe Armstrong was the "Elijah to come" or an apostle or prophet; I don't believe Christ died on Wednesday or rose on Saturday or was 72 hours in the grave; I don't believe in tithing money; etc.). As a consequence, like you Tonto, I'm now much more forgiving towards others, especially Christians, who hold different beliefs or practices to me. I don't know everything and what little I do know I'm still at His mercy to correct me where and when He feels the need since from experience I've learned that today I might believe one thing to be true and tomorrow something else. So all I can do is extend the same grace God extends to me to others since there, but for the grace of God go I.
BB wrote:
"Too bad he rips us off. Hijacks the thread and posts it on his own site where we can't comment about it. Sheesh! Are all "prophets" control freaks, or just the ones who refuse to be held accountable?"
Over the last 80 some years ever single COG prophet has refused to allow people to question them. All of them falsely claimed that God had personally delivered the "truth" they were passing on.
We all got to witness first hand the asinine lies of Gerald Waterhouse over the decades as he preached some of the most awful and idiotic sermons ever uttered in the church. To question him though was to go against the "government" of the church and because Herbert had ordained him, it was as if God himself inspired his speaking. We all know that was never the case.
That is why today in 2020 we know that Bob Thiel, Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack and other fake COG prophets are utter frauds and outright lairs. Nothing they say should ever be considered truth or prophetic.
Bob refuses to carry on a dialogue with people who have a right to question him. He cannot stand up to their scrutiny and therefore has to refuse people the right to question him.
Anon,
Believing as the devil does is certainly not the meaning. As in my original post, I point out that most Christians do indeed obey. The Holy Spirit leads them to follow Christ and they observe 9 of the 10 Commandments, as well as the COGs do if not better. Devils don't do that. Christ says He is our rest in Matthew right before Matthew writes about the accounts of the Pharisees claiming He did that which is unlawful on the Sabbath. This indicates to me that Matthew is pointing out that a change was made. Certainly, post Pentecost something changed as Sabbath keeping is not discussed or ever an issue, and I highly doubt all the new Christians coming from pagan cultures were better sabbath keepers than the Children of Israel who were continually breaking the sabbath despite being immersed in a culture that provided for it. Again, I don't do my customary work on the Sabbath, but I don't believe this places me on a higher plane than sincere Christians that don't do so but have sacrificed their desires and in some cases been martyred. Intent matters or God would not be desirous of our change from a heart of stone.
When I said that "COGs base their being true Christians on lawkeeping" I should have prefaced it: "Among those that claim Christianity, COGs base their being true Christians on lawkeeping." This is true as it is how they separate themselves from other Christians. But they willfully choose to not keep the full law. Why? They can't claim being distinct from other Christians due to lawkeeping if they are not following the law.
We don't know all the commands and laws Abraham kept. But, some we do know is that he followed the commands to leave Ur and give up his false gods. He also followed the Law of circumcision and treated it as a law and statute for others. He should have not borne false witness regarding his wife that could have lead to adultery. The COGs spend more time on the Sabbath than anything else it seems, but the Sabbath was not mentioned in the OT after creation and pre-Exodus 16. Those omissions have to matter for something. Certainly, the emphasis on the Sabbath appears to be taught between Sinai and Pentecost. What am I to do with that? In the end, I choose to do no customary work on the sabbath but do not "worship" it as the COGs seem to do and because there are so many writings of Paul that minimize the observance of days (without ever providing a clarifying exception for the sabbath) I have to think it is either outside Christian requirement or greatly minimized as a measure of who is the Lord's. I wonder if in Acts 15 when Circumcision and the law are being discussed that, because circumcision pre-dated Sinai, the Jewish believers were more adamant about circumcision than the sabbath.
(cont)
(cont from above)
Bob Thiel seems to hinge those with the Holy Spirit on Acts 5:32. First he claims "Only those who obey are given the Spirit of Christ." First it doesn't say "only" but I won't belabor the point beyond an adherence to not add to scripture itself (which is not the same thing as interpreting the meaning of Scripture).
Bob knows "obey" is a loaded word. The COGs believe that if one obeys they are keeping all the doctrines of the COGs. But, we all know many gentiles received the Holy Spirit without baptism and before they could practice or know the doctrines Bob Thiel would claim must be obeyed.
Is the necessary obedience for receiving the Holy Spirit to simply believe Christ died for our sins and that we must repent (turn from our carnal ways and follow Christ) and generally be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit? That is what scripture states. As an aside, I also have no problem with the Holy Spirit playing a greater role in our accepting of the Call than I have generally thought. I'm doing my best, and hopefully will learn some of these things when I see Him face to face rather than thru a glass dimly. That is the glorious time I most look forward to. Bob thiel also does not address why he too picks and chooses the laws he deems required. That is not the way of one who claims they are true Christians due to lawkeeping. I'm thankful for grace.
Is there really a greater reward because you went to church on a different day and a few other days thru the year and didn’t eat pork?
The Pharisees thought they were special because the strictly "kept" the Sabbath, Holy Days and wouldn't eat pork, but as Christ said they lack Love and Mercy. The COG's overly focus on these made us like the Pharisees. Before Christ was to be crucified, He talked about his followers would be known by how they loved each other. COG's not focusing their message on becoming like Jesus missed a main Gospel message.
But that would have been too "Protestant"
"Certainly, post Pentecost something changed as Sabbath keeping is not discussed or ever an issue,"
Really? Then why is Col. 2:16,17 and Gal. 4:10 always brought up when arguing against the Sabbath?
What about the claim that Paul only went in to the synagogues on the Sabbath because that is where the Jews were. Why, when the gentiles of Antioch asked Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath, did they wait a full week, until the next Sabbath, if he was preaching to the gentiles. That right there should be enough proof that the Sabbath was kept. But no, it would be so "easy for you to take the day off on the Sabbath and go to church". Yet you don't want to do that. The Sabbath was made for mankind. Are you human? It was made for you.
If Sunday keepers obey as well if not better than Sabbath keepers then why do they get hot under the collar when somebody gives them a coherent explanation for Col. 2:14 or Gal. 4:10? Why the hatred for the Sabbath? And please don't tell me there's no hatred, there definitely is.
How important is Sabbath keeping to God? Read Ez. 20.
"Bullshit! We never taught they were lost. Why do you lie? Do you think lying adds strength to your position?"
You baldly assert that I lie, yet you bring no receipts to the table? Is that because you can't?
How quickly you forget what HWA taught. He built his enterprise on the notion that mainline christianity was a Satanic counterfeit of the 1st century apostolic church:
"So it was, that before A.D. 50 (the Church had been founded in A.D. 31) a fierce controversy arose as to whether the gospel to be proclaimed was the gospel OF Christ, or a gospel ABOUT Christ. Soon the curtain was wrung down on historic records of the Church. It evidenced the fact that a vigorous cooperative and systematic effort was made to destroy historic records of church happenings of the next hundred years. It was the LOST CENTURY in church history. When the curtain of history is raised about A.D. 150, it reveals a church calling itself "Christian," but one totally different from the Church Jesus founded through his apostles in A.D. 31."
HWA preached that the 7th-day Sabbath was a "test commandment" that differentiated true christians and the one true church from all the rest of the false christians and false harlot churches:
"As the Sabbath is the identifying sign of the people of God (Jew, gentile or any race), so Sunday is the mark that identifies the AUTHORITY of false Christianity BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS—because Sunday carries no other authority. The substitution of the pagan Sunday to counterfeit God's Sabbath is a primary stratagem of Satan in deceiving all nations, and counterfeiting God's TRUTH as well as God's Church."
HWA preached that the one true church could only have the one true "church of god" name, while
"In this world, churches are named after MEN, or after the SYSTEM men have devised, or the kind of church government MEN have thought out, CONTRARY to God's Word, or after a significant doctrine they emphasize, or what men hope to make it -- all-encompassing, universal or catholic. But wherever that ONE true Church is, it will be named the CHURCH OF GOD. But that is not all. Many have appropriated God's name, but are not proclaiming the KINGDOM OF GOD, as the GOVERNMENT of God, which we must OBEY -- teaching obedience to God's Law (Ten Commandments) -- teaching REPENTANCE of rebellion and transgressing God's Holy Law -- teaching that we may be now BEGOTTEN into the KINGDOM (Family) of God, and may, by the resurrection, be BORN into the GOD FAMILY! That true Church is preaching the imminency of the coming of CHRIST as KING of kings and LORD of lords, to RULE all nations for a thousand years on earth. Not up in heaven, but ON THIS EARTH (Rev. 5:10). There is only ONE such Church! It is doing THE WORK OF GOD. It is, as Jesus said it would be, a "little flock," persecuted, despised by the world."
I don't need to lie. It's what HWA preached on TV, in print, and from the pulpit. I was there, I remember. So why are you lying?
Quotes are from Herbert W Armstrong. "WHERE Is the True Church?" 1984.
There are many sermons on tape where HWA quoted the Bible saying we were to be a peculiar people, not because of wearing peculiar garb or strange bonnets but because of the renewing of our mind.
It was felt that the other peculiarities would contribute to that process. For one, it did set us apart as a "special people". The "pharisees" of all times, were and are unfortunate to not have read or applied what Jesus says.
Nck
10:27 AM
What if Paul preached on the Sabbath to the Jews and Gentile proselytes because he knew that was the day most of them assembled so he thought it best on that day to preach to them about Jesus and the resurrection? Note Paul later preached every day in the market place and lecture all too (Acts 17:17; 19:9). So just because he preached on a certain day doesn’t necessarily mean that day is a sanctioned holy day to be observed by Jewish or Gentile Christians.
8:57
The other days were "Bible studies".
People drove 2 hours with their chariots to attend. I know because I have seen the ruts.
Nck
8:57 Didn't I mention that ignorant argument?
"What about the claim that Paul only went in to the synagogues on the Sabbath because that is where the Jews were. Why, when the gentiles of Antioch asked Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath, did they wait a full week,"
If it weren't for the Antioch example you would have a case, but it says specifically that the gentiles wanted Paul to preach to them what he had just preached to the Jews and proselytes in the synogogue on the Sabbath. It says clearly that they waited until the next Sabbath. Why? Paul had already preached to the Jews amd proselytes, this was specifically for the gentiles and Paul could have easily preached to them any day that next week, but he didn't. He waited til the next Sabbath.
See there Jim, the hostility against the Sabbath is strong. If indeed the Sabbath is still as important to God as it was in Ez. 20 then that right there is your blatant disobedience. If it's not important then you have a case.
Let's hope that the hatred towards everything Armstrong, and the belief, no matter how sincere, that Acts 15, Col. 2:16, and Gal. 4:10 prove that the Sabbath isn't important isn't the outright stubbornness that is mentioned in Hebrews.
Heb 4:11 - Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:12 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Look up the Greek word for unbelief it means a stubborn refusal to obey.
Strong’s Definitions
ἀπείθεια apeítheia, ap-i'-thi-ah; from G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious):—disobedience, unbelief.
10:27,
Again, my clarity could be improved. What I mean is that after Pentecost, Christians were never corrected by the apostles for not observing the Sabbath properly. My question is: if Sabbath observance did not change after Pentecost, how did these gentile/pagan Christian converts observe the Sabbath properly when the OT Israelites were corrected (and punished) repeatedly for profaning the Sabbath in a culture that was built around the sabbath?
Regarding Col. 2:16,17 and Gal. 4:10 it always seemed we in the COGs were stretching in our arguments. I think you are right that Christians can get angry when they are told that the Sabbath is so pivotal that they are not real Christians without it after they have studied (or granted, have been told/taught) the topic and believe it does not apply after Pentecost and that now it is the Holy Spirit that is the mark of a Christian. I have not had mainstream Christians get angry about the Sabbath (many seeing the value of observing it), but I have also not claimed this is an identifier of a real Christian. So, I don't believe it is the sabbath they hate, but the implications that the COGs have applied to it.
Jim, not all in the cog make those implications. God looks on the heart. One hundred years ago most Sunday keepers were keeping the Sabbath in their monds, they thought Sunday was truly the Sabbath and I'm sure many of them will be among the firstfruits. Today for the most part it's a different story. While there are still a few who keep Sunday as the Sabbath most don't. I just hope they sincerely are asking the question, am I deluding myself? Yes, I've asked myself the same about the Sabbath. HWA would most likely condemn me to hell if he knew how I kept the Sabbath. But I don't care, HWA is no longer anyone to me. When he said that 50% just don't get it, I guarantee you that he was among the ones who didn't get it.
Jim, also the historical explanations by the cog about Col. 2 and Gal. 4 are completely wrong.
"after they have studied (or granted, have been told/taught) the topic and believe it does not apply after Pentecost"
But did they really study the topic? How many are willing to study the varying arguments pro and con, let alone having the ability to coherently explain every argument?
I have. From the age of 15 while in the WCG, 40 years ago, I wanted to understand the WCG's argument (which they got from the cog7th day) and Protestantism's argument. I disagree with both. There is at least one other argument out there that I've actually seen on this blog.
Jim, I think you are mixing two concepts here.
HWA never said that 'Sunday keepers would be lost'.
What he did say was that they would not be in the first resurrection. Whether he was right or not in that statement is not the point.
What is the point is that what he actually taught was that these Sunday keepers would be part of the second resurrection, where they would be given the understanding of what God actually wanted, and would have the opportunity for eternal life.
Far different to being lost! Salvation was being delayed, not lost. The opportunity for salvation is a universal opportunity, for every human being.
Anon,
Good point about stubbornness and unbelief. I question whether there is a stubbornness or other motive regularly. Yes, at one time and some still today kept/keep Sunday as strictly as almost a Pharisee. The sabbath if observed should be a delight and for me the COGs never did that.
Questeruk, I actually never said that HWA said sunday keepers were lost. But, he did determine that they did not have the holy spirit and were false and, as you say, may be redeemed in the second resurrection. Still wrong (actually it is breaking a command of God) to think you can judge the work of the holy spirit and judge Christians as either true or false. To my mind, breaking this command that Christ taught again and again reveals something worse than when someone may be trying to follow the Lord but "doesn't understand something properly".
Also Questeruk,
Consider that the teaching is also that Hitler and many other despots are also candidates for the 2nd resurrection.
The teaching values the martyrdom and living sacrifices of those who believe Christ is their personal Savior and yet observe a Sunday Sabbath as simply deceived in a manner not unlike such despots. Discerning indeed!
jim supposes that he knows better what went wrong in little adolphs childhood than God himself.
How extremely presumptuous.
I can defend with my entire heart a teaching that Hitler will get a chance to know what truth is if he never had that chance. The chance that he will choose the right path however, I with all of my human intellect estimate to be extremely low. But what do I know.
nck
Oh and by the way.
I could defend a teaching that a lot of Hindu, Sunday Keepers, and Muslems etc etc etc might be skipping some classes in a world tomorrow cog universe and be "gods" after just a summer course. (while I write this I recall gta screeming about the "little children along the Iry Wadi.................phrases and place names like that during sermons made me long for and visit all of the people at those places and I have judged them fit for any resurection, but what do I know future assistanbt guvnah of Tatooine in a galaxy far and beyond)
nck
Jim said:
"The sabbath if observed should be a delight and for me the COGs never did that."
Hey, hey, we agree. 27 years ago when my son was nine years old, about a year after I had quit the WCG I allowed my son to play little league baseball on the Sabbath. I reasoned, how much work is it standing in the outfield waiting for a ball to come to him? Most parents in the WCG allowed their kids to shoot hoops on the Sabbath in their own backyard so what's the big deal. Believe me I learned the judgmentalism of some who though out of WCG were still caught in the WCG quagmire.
When my daughter was in Middle School and High School I allowed her to cheer on Friday nights, and to play in the band at Friday night football games and Majorette. I even allowed her to march in Christmas and Easter parades.
They're kids, they need to be around other kids. Needless to say today my son is 36 and my daughter 32 and they are still Sabbath and Feast keepers though, as I said, most would condemn us to hell based upon how we keep the Sabbath.
Guess what? I don't give a shit! 😁
QuesterUK
'It's bad to see Pastors with double lives. It's a wound to the church.
Sick Pastors, who have lost authority and carry on with this double life.
Jesus is stern with them. He not only tells people NOT to listen to them but also to not do what they do.
What does He JESUS CHRIST tell them ?
" your white sepulchers"
Beautiful in doctrine on the outside, but rotting within.
Pope Francis
18 Jan 2018
Hi Jim,
Apologies for saying it was you that said Sunday keepers were lost. Going through the blog, I see it originated from one of the many anonymous contributors.
Re your comment about Hitler and other despots being candidates for the 2nd resurrection, I think nck made a reasonable reply to this.
That evil despots would be there along with very sincere people, who had attempted to follow God to the best of their ability, is that really a problem? The important thing is how they all, as individuals, react when they understand the full truth.
Despots would have a much more difficult time, and have a lesser chance of real repentance – however, I am in no position to judge, I don’t know what pressures was on the individual person – no doubt many despots were under great influence from Satanic sources, and to a degree what they did was out of their control. It’s not for me to judge, only God knows the full, real, picture.
I would also add that I would fully expect those that ‘fell away’ from their calling (as the COGs would put it), would also be in the 2nd resurrection. Most people stopped believing what they believed for what seemed to them good reasons. A God of love isn’t going to condemn someone for having genuine doubts. In this age it’s all but impossible to have the full facts on such deep issues.
It’s only at the second resurrection that the real facts of the matter will be revealed. That’s the time when someone who turned away from God will have full understanding, and also realise that God has not cast them away, that they still have the opportunity of eternal life. That’s not a ‘second chance’, but an extension of their first chance.
The second resurrection is not a ‘second class’ salvation, it’s the normal route for the vast majority of the earths population. Those in the first resurrection will have a ‘head start’, in that they will have 1000 years more experience, but that soon levels out – for example, after one million years, it makes little difference if you have lived for one million years or one million, one thousand years!
nck,
I'm not presuming anything about Hitler. All I am saying is that the leadership of the COGs lump, for example, martyred Sunday keeping Christians and Hitler together as those that are deceived. They don't accept the presence of God's Holy Spirit in the lives of sincere/believing/repentant Sunday-keeping Christians any more than they accept it in Hitler. That is how much they believe in their doctrinal perfection even in light of their own doctrinal changes through the years. (and yes, I recognize they say more is going on with Hitler than your average deceived individual, but still, according to the COGs, there are just two groups: those that are a part of the sabbath-keepers and the rest that do not have God's Holy Spirit)
nck,
To clarify, my point does not touch on the final judgment of Hitler. With all of your human intellect, be careful with your own presumptions... maybe I could have clarified, but a strict reading of what I wrote requires presumption to reach your conclusion.
Jim.
I do not "strict read". I apply context.
I do also not make presumptions. I know it says that "all fall short", so who am I to assume that the very bad person we mentioned will assume a better position if coming to a fuller understanding.
In this particular case I know that his experiences in the trenches of WWI, a horrible father and poverty did some shaping of his character.
But perhaps the eternal God feels I am being to intellectual about this and feels he has forfeited eternal life.
Anyway my heroes are the Irish missionaries travelling into Saxon, Viking and Frankish territories, telling the kings of those fearsome frightful blonde horrible creatures that "the way of peace they know not."
That's like your average palm springs yoga teacher telling isil in Syria to find peace in their hearts.
By the way I knew of a Jesuit priest refusing to leave his post in Syria. He was murdered in his garden.
God might judge me harsher for my reproaching tone in my postings than this faithful steward of peace.
But maybe not. What do I know with my limited IQ and dataset. All my inner desires and whiles are stored at Google for the asking if I am not on God's mailinglist anymore since 1991. But maybe I am, maybe not.
Nck
"according to the COGs, there are just two groups: those that are a part of the sabbath-keepers and the rest that do not have God's Holy Spirit)"
That's exactly how it was in WCG days, but today there are many still in the cog who reject that premise. Only God knows who are his and it's impossible for us to judge by outward appearances. King David would be condemned by those who think they know based upon "their fruits".
9:26,
True for a few members I'm sure, but I have only met a scarce few and certainly no ministers.
Nck, you made me laugh. That is a good to society. Paul seemed to know he was on the mailing list. Why don't you?
Jim you need to hang out with the independents.
Question asked was: "Is there really a greater reward because you went to church on a different day and a few other days thru the year and didn’t eat pork?"
No!
Well, that is if the reward is "everlasting life (Romans 6:23)!"
For example, Jesus Christ mentioned something being prepared from long ago:
"...Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" Matthew 25:34
But what about the long life: everlasting life, eternal life, bit?
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; [{In: or, For }" Titus 1:2
Is everlasting life enough of a reward? It would beat a dirt-nap for all eternity, but, apparently, some may be thinking of some other reward, as if everlasting life wasn't enough to focus on, desire, and look forward to receiving.
Well, for them, time will tell...
John
6:23 AM said: “If it weren't for the Antioch example you would have a case, but it says specifically that the gentiles wanted Paul to preach to them what he had just preached to the Jews and proselytes in the synogogue on the Sabbath. It says clearly that they waited until the next Sabbath. Why? Paul had already preached to the Jews amd proselytes, this was specifically for the gentiles and Paul could have easily preached to them any day that next week, but he didn't. He waited til the next Sabbath.”
I believe as a Jew Paul had an open pulpit in any Jewish synagogue. This is the primary reason he began his initial work in new cities in the synagogues on the Sabbath preaching to Jews and Gentile proselytes.
Re Antioch I believe he was preaching to both the mixed congregation of Jews and Gentile proselytes to whom the discourse had been addressed (Acts 13:16, 42-43). Then during the week the excitement reaching the rest of the city’s Gentiles in general led to them, along with the usual Jewish and Gentile proselyte worshippers, crowding the synagogue (vv. 44-45).
Due to the negative reaction of the Jews, however, Paul and co. then preached exclusively to the Gentiles (v. 46).
It’s possible, even probable, that this led to Jews preventing Paul from using the synagogues as a platform to preach the gospel. Further, this is the pattern we see Paul repeating in his preaching: first to the Jews in their synagogues on the Sabbath; then to the Gentiles on any day he could preach to them (Acts 17:7; 19:9).
"Then during the week the excitement reaching the rest of the city’s Gentiles in general led to them, along with the usual Jewish and Gentile proselyte worshippers, crowding the synagogue (vv. 44-45)."
Really? That sure isn't what the bible says:
Act 13:42 - And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
You can reason around what it plainly says all that you want, people have been doing that to justify themselves for quite a long time.
12:49 PM said: "...the bible says: Act 13:42 - And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. You can reason around what it plainly says all that you want, people have been doing that to justify themselves for quite a long time."
Re Acts 13:42 the original Greek of this verse has been debated through history (see for example Wikipedia article of NT verses omitted in modern translations). Also, various Bible scholars claim the original Greek of verse 42 doesn't identify any group of people that exited the synagogue, but just refers to "they" and/or "them" (see for example Nestle's 1904 Greek NT of Acts 13:42 and Commentaries on Acts 13:42).
In any case I don't believe Acts 13:42 is required as a proof text for seventh-day Sabbath keeping since 1) the original rendering is open to debate (even though I reject your interpretation of it as I'm in the camp of the majority of Bible scholars who interpret this verse as simply stating that Jews and Gentile converts to Judaism were present in the synagogue on the first Sabbath Paul and Barnabas preached and then on the following Sabbath (vv. 44-45) other Jews and Gentiles--both converts and pagans alike--were on this second occasion present); and 2) there are plenty scriptural passages that are clear and in support of seventh-day Sabbath keeping.
"Re Acts 13:42 the original Greek of this verse has been debated through history "
The entire bible has been debated through history, so big whoop. Don't like a passage, claim that it's specious.
7:46 AM said: “The entire bible has been debated through history, so big whoop. Don't like a passage, claim that it's specious.”
Just like 1 John 5:7.
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