A Prophetic Advantage?
Lonnie Hendrix
Although the notion that Great Britian and the United States are descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh has been thoroughly discredited by biblical and historical scholars, CGI’s Bill Watson continues to insist that the teaching gives those who accept it a prophetic leg up on everyone else. In The Prophetic Advantage - The Israel Paradigm (Part 8), Watson reiterated his belief that viewing biblical prophecies through the lens of this understanding gives him (and everyone who shares his belief) a correct perspective on the meaning of prophecy. Of course, the many prophetic failures of Herbert Armstrong and his “evangelists” over the last eighty-plus years is completely ignored and NEVER mentioned in his remarks.
For Bill, however, this “understanding” gives legitimacy to his ministry. Anglo-Israelism justifies his messaging. It supports his emphasis on headline theology, and his forays into partisan politics. For Mr. Watson, his conviction that the English-speaking peoples are the descendants of the ancient Israelites is what motivates his embrace of “America First” and “Make America Great Again” policies and politics. It also accounts for his strong anti-immigrant and anti-socialist messaging. For Bill, the political left is destroying America/Manasseh and bringing about the punishments which were prophesied so long ago for the children of Israel. Finally, this also fits nicely with the Armstrongist preoccupation with Torah (which encompasses the tenets of God’s covenant with the Israelites).
In short, for Bill (and all of the ACOG folks who share his view) Israel is the focus of Scripture and is the theme that unites everything. For most Christians, however, Jesus of Nazareth is the focus of Scripture – the theme that unites everything! Bill and his allies see Israel as the object of prophecy. Even so, most Christians see Jesus as the fulfillment of prophecy. Indeed, the vast majority of Christians view the Hebrew Scriptures (Torah and the prophets in particular) as shadows of the reality found in Christ. Unfortunately, this view of the Bible is completely foreign/alien to Bill and his followers. Nevertheless, this Israel-centric approach to Scripture distorts Bill’s theological and prophetic understanding and perfectly explains why this is the eighth part of a series of sermons dealing with the same subject.
Anglo-Israelism also distorts Bill’s view of history. It perverts the way that he sees the accomplishments of Wycliffe and Tyndale, and the importance of events like the Spanish Armada, the founding of Jamestown, the landing at Plymouth, the American Revolution, and Waterloo. For Bill and his allies, Almighty God was actively orchestrating the events of the history of the English-speaking peoples of the earth. For him, EVERYTHING in that history was a consequence of God fulfilling his promises to the patriarchs. In other words, Bill’s view of history justifies a whole lot of immoral behavior on the part of a whole lot of people. He reasons that God was behind it all, and that makes it right! Thus, things like colonialism, exploitation, greed, genocide, slavery, capitalism, and theft take on a Holy glow for Bill and his followers.
Why is he so wrong? Because the English-speaking peoples of the earth are NOT Israelites. Because the Gentile peoples of those nations are NOT part of God’s covenant with Israel, and they are NOT responsible for observing the tenets of Torah. Those nations do NOT represent the fulfillment of God’s promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David. Their sins are not excused or justified by God’s purposes. The prophecies which were directed at Judah and Israel and their leaders do NOT apply to the British and American people and their leaders. Likewise, other nations which were associated with ancient Israel are NOT represented in modern times by current European nations. In other words, the notion that God is going to use German, Russian, or Chinese armies to punish Britain and the United States is absurd! In short, Bill and his allies are promulgating a false message. They are predicting things that will NEVER happen, and they are diverting attention away from the One who should be the focus of their messaging, Jesus Christ.
52 comments:
HWA is correct regarding British-Israelism. The present Oct 7 Gaza-Israel conflict/war is further proof. Mannasseh (America), Ephraim (England), Reuben (France) are among Jacob's sons now helping fellow brother Judah (Jews). Enmity between Arabs and Jews goes back to Abraham's wives, Hagar and Sarah. The Jews will defeat their enemies: 1948 Arab-Israel War, 1967 6 Day War, 1973 Yom Kippur War and now 7 Oct Gaza war (Gen 49:8). Advantage, Judah.
Lonnie writes:
“... the notion that God is going to use German, Russian, or Chinese armies to punish Britain and the United States is absurd! In short, Bill and his allies are promulgating a false message. They are predicting things that will NEVER happen.
“History is littered with wars which everybody knew would NEVER happen” - Enoch Powell
Leaving God and genetics out of it and looking at historical precedents, it is possible that a United Europe, with allies, will invade and conquer the USA.
A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within - Will Durant
Below highlights some precedents that suggests that possibility. Some of the quotes are dated as the destruction from within America is still taking place so that will lead to partition and most likely civil war.
Hegemony in the Modern World
"Amsterdam stood at the center of the world's financial system in the 17th century; its place was taken by London in the early 19th century, then New York in the 20th..." (Richard Florida, How the Crash Will Reshape America, theatlanticonline.com, March 2009).
As noted by Richard Florida, the centres of the world financial system have changed over the centuries, and as a corollary so have the hegemonic powers that sponsored these systems.
The United Provinces of the Netherlands was displaced by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, who in turn was replaced by the United States of America, who is soon to be displaced by a United States of Europe.
The hegemonic power that replaced the next was also invaded by the preceding power. The Dutch 'invaded' Britain; Britain 'invaded' America; and America 'invaded' Europe. This suggests Europe will be the next hegemonic power, at least for a little while...
"...the transition between British and American predominance from 1914 to 1945 shook the world no less than a violent earthquake. The political, monetary, and military foundations upon which markets operated were severely tested. In more than one instance, they gave way, and as they did, prosperity - like a weakened building - tumbled into the chasm. The result was disorder: a world unpoliced, in which property rights and free trade were abridged or abolished in many places, and millions perished in brutal wars" (James Dale Davidson and William Rees-Mogg, The Great Reckoning, Revised Edition, (London: Sidgwick & Jackson, 1993), p.138).
1914 was the start of WW1 and 1945 the end of WW2, the wars that cemented the end of Pax Britannia...
"Since 1945, the Pax Americana has made international economic interdependence and globalization possible...
"Financially, the U.S. has been responsible for managing the global economy by acting as the market and lender of last resort...
"Going forward, the fiscal crisis will mean that Washington cannot discharge its military functions as a hegemon either, because it can no longer maintain the power edge that has allowed it to keep the ambitions of the emerging great powers in check. The entire fabric of world order that the United States established after 1945 - the Pax Americana - rested on the foundation of U.S. military and economic preponderance. Remove the foundation and the structure crumbles. The decline of American power means the end of U.S. dominance in world politics and the beginning of the transition to a new constellation of world powers...
"The coming era of de-globalization will be defined by rising nationalism and mercantilism, geopolitical instability and great power competition. In other words, having enjoyed a long holiday from history under the Pax Americana, international politics will be headed back to the future" (Christopher Layne and Benjamin Schwarz, Twilight of Pax Americana, latimes.com, September 29, 2009).
Part 2
The Rise of Hegemonic Powers
“... wealth is usually needed to underpin military power, and military power is usually needed to acquire and protect wealth" (Paul Kennedy, The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers - Economic Change and Military Conflict from 1500 to 2000, p.xvi).
A rising superpower organized as the largest free-trade in the world area gives it the economic foundation to assert world leadership.
The first two paragraphs provides the precedent and the third the candidate to change the balance of power.
"The economic boom, felt everywhere but most intensively in Britain, sent government revenues soaring, and in the years 1823-25, the new Chancellor of the Exchequer earned himself the name "Prosperity" Robinson by across the-board reductions in taxes and duties... Many inland duties went altogether, so that Britain, and to a great extent Ireland, became THE LARGEST FREE-TRADE AREA IN THE WORLD. All kinds of ancient regulations, quotas, bounties and taxes, which interfered with the free flow of goods and services, were dumped, leaving the market to determine price and quantity" (Paul Johnson, Birth of the Modern, pp.878-88).
"... America's ascent to world leadership in manufacturing was driven by agriculture... natural resources and [other] advantages were reinforced by a unique combination of protection and laissez-faire in federal and state policy. The freedom of interstate commerce ... made America by the 1860s THE LARGEST FREE-TRADING AREA IN THE WORLD. But this was accompanied by high external tariffs ... from 1861 onwards. Thus the United States enjoyed simultaneously the advantages both of free trade and of protection. As a result the homemarket was buying 97 percent of its manufactures from domestic producers by 1900" (Paul Johnson, A History of the American People, p.442).
"European Economic Area (EEA), [an] association formed to establish a single market and free-trade area among countries of the European Union (EU) and the European Free Trade Association (EFTA). THE EEA IS THE LARGEST FREE-TRADE ZONE IN THE WORLD. It has 30 members, comprising the 27 EU countries plus Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway. Switzerland, the only member of EFTA that did not join the EEA, maintains observer status" (European Economic Area, encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia).
Nominal GDP (trillions US$, IMF, Estimate 2020)
EEA: 13.43 - America: 20.81 -China: 14.86
"A few years ago, Professor Samuel Huntington suggested that "the baton of world leadership" [in the 21st century] may pass from America not to Japan, or China, or Russia, but to a European federation:
" "The European Community, if it were to become politically cohesive, would have the population, resources, economic wealth, technology and actual and potential military strength to be the preeminent power of the twenty-first century... It is also possible to conceive of a European ideological appeal comparable to the American one... A federation of democratic, wealthy, socially diverse, mixed economy societies would be a very powerful force on the world scene. If the [21st] century is not the American century it is most likely to be a European century" " (Paul Kennedy, Preparing for the Twenty-First Century, pp.258-59).
The Challengers
"Every modern transition of world power supremacy has involved an ally or former colony of the previous hegemonic power. Holland was a breakaway possession of Spain. England was an ally of the Netherlands, and from 1689 trough 1702 both states shared the same sovereign, the Dutch-born William III. The United States was a former colony and intimate ally of Britain..." (James Dale Davidson & William Rees-Mogg, The Great Reckoning, p.137).
United Provinces of the Netherlands (Protestant) then United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (Protestant) now United States of America (Protestant) next United States of Europe (Catholic?).
Part 3
"History is coming full circle. After breaking away from the British Empire, the United States came together as a unitary federation, emerged as a leading nation, and eventually eclipsed Europe's Great Powers. It is now Europe's turn to ascend and break away from an America that refuses to surrender its privileges of primacy. Europe will inevitably rise up as America's principal competitor. Should Washington and Brussels begin to recognize the dangers of the growing gulf between them, they may be able to contain their budding rivalry. Should they fail, however, to prepare for life after Pax Americana, they will ensure that the coming clash of civilizations will be not between the West and the rest but within a West divided against itself... and America remains largely oblivious" (Charles A. Kupchan, The End of the West, The Atlantic Monthly, November 2002, p.42-44).
From the back page of “The Man in the High Castle”:
“It’s America in 1962. Slavery is legal once again. The few Jews who still survive hide under assumed names. In San Francisco the I Ching is as common as the Yellow Pages. All because some 20 years earlier the United States lost a war — and is now occupied jointly by Nazi Germany and Japan. This harrowing, Hugo Award-winning novel is the work that established Philip K. Dick as an innovator in science fiction while breaking the barrier between science fiction and the serious novel of ideas. In it Dick offers a haunting vision of history as a nightmare from which it may just be possible to awake”.
From “Jet Stream” — Anything is possible:
“JET STREAM (part one WWIII, The Break of America) opens with Quebec and United Europe invading the United States and Canada. FATE LAUGHING (part two) takes the conflict int Quebec. ARMAGEDDON (the conclusion) takes the conflict across North America, as United Europe and the Asia-Pacific Confederation battle for world supremacy. Is it all a fantasy or prophecy? (R.L. Muehlberg, Jet Stream, p.i).
“A shocking View of North America’s Future”.
“In 1991, the unthinkable happened. The USSR, a world power, was broken apart in a stunning series of rapid-fire events. In the Fall of 1995, Canada came within a razor’s edge of being broken apart. Next time, the razor may slice through. If it does, forces could be set in motion to cut apart the United States.
“In his trilogy, set in 2012-15, author R.L. Muehlberg puts a divided Canada and a world-weary United States on a collision course with the rising power of Quebec, United Europe and the Asia-Pacific Confederation...
“Confident with their new power Quebec and UE invade the US and Canada. The US military, a shadow of its former self, is caught by complete surprise. Only a thin, stubborn line of renegade soldiers, seamen and ordinary civilians rise up to block the Allied juggernaut. Who will survive the first world war of the new millennia” (pp.ii - iii)...
“The “America First” Party, promising a “new America free of the ulcer of foreign aid and of military bonds to an ungrateful world”, has put its first President into the White House. America’s armed forces, labeled as “relics of history and a flagrant waste of precious tax dollars”, have been drastically reduced and hobbled by legislative restrictions and burdened by executive orders...
“DAY ONE SUNDAY, 0735 HOURS AUTOROUTE 173, CHECKPOINT 3, NW OF THE QUEBEC-MAINE BORDER...” (p.1).
The fictitious WW2 German General Armin von Roon in Herman Wouk’s novel “The Winds of War” concluded that:
“On the eve of the attack, the officers of Pearl Harbor no doubt observed the sacred American Saturday-night ritual of getting stinking drunk, as did most of their men, and so when the first bombs fell, were incapable of manning their numerous planes and AA guns to defend themselves. Here the rule ‘know your enemy’ definitely helped the Japanese. If American forces, wherever stationed, are ever attacked again, the proper time will always be Sunday morning. National character changes very slowly” (p.721).
We really must look at the way the BI world view was touted as it was taught to us. The same problems which Lonnie outlined regarding BI existed at the time when HWA brought it into our consciousness. We were persuaded to gloss over and ignore these problems and look to the chief advantages, which were its alleged predictive value. These never really did pan out, or the Germans would have landed in 1972, Jesus would have returned in '75, and we'd all be sipping on some fine wine in the Kingdom right now.
Your viewpoint lost back in '72, Billy-Boy! It's time to quit your useless repetition of the insanities and transition to something more realistic that will actually improve the quality of your listeners' lives!
Lonnie's article is one giant invalidation of the truth. The closer we get to Christ's return and the fulfillment of end time prophesies, the more frequent and forceful will such articles appear on Banned.
It's the crabs in a bucket syndrome. How dare anyone succeed.
article states "..his strong anti-immigrant..messaging"
I doubt if Bill is anti-immigration, more like anti-illegal-immigration:
if you twist facts like that, you're no better than HWA slanting history!
Anonymous commentator in three parts,
You argue against a straw man. The United States will inevitably change and decline (as has every other great power before it). The U.S. may very well engage in both commercial and actual warfare with Russia and China in the years to come. The U.S. also has external enemies like Iran and North Korea to worry about. Personally, I think that it's much more likely that the U.S. destroys itself (given the current climate within the country). The thesis of the post is that Anglo-Israelism does NOT explain any of that.
THE TRUTH is immune to invalidation, and God does NOT need our help in defending it. Anglo-Israelism is NOT the truth!
Anonymous 2:46,
My remarks didn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigration. Hence, while I accept the distinction which you introduced, that does not invalidate my statement about his strong anti-immigrant messaging.
HWA always majored in the minors: hair length, skirt length, music, etc. The Fruit of the Spirit, gentleness, kindness, patience, etc. were all feminine traits, not for the likes of Golden Gloves boxer, Roderick Meredith and others. One year at a legitimate Bible college where they teach how to properly interpret the Bible, basic doctrines, etc. were better educated than an AC graduate with a Th.D. What is embarrassing is that along with their ignorance was an appalling arrogance. No need to read what other Christians have written, they were deceived. Not only did HWA restore "lost truths", he had ALL truth. Once we swallowed the BIG lies, Who HWA was and what the WCG was, any nonsense that they spoke was accepted with little question. Of course, if you did question anyone, esp. RCM, you were labeled as having a "bad attitude." He was among the many intellectual cowards who would not listen to any views that went against what they taught. They would shout you down, dominate any conversation, and shut you up.
Narcissists, many of them. And many of the members were "dependent personality types. A lock and key arrangement. Those who wanted to dominate and those who wanted to be dominated. Everyone got what they wanted.
Actually, there are a number of people I know who come out against illegal immigration because that is considered to be the socially acceptable position. If you talk to them for very long, or over a couple of beers, you learn that there are deeper prejudices. Most of them aren't going to bend your ear about ZOG and the Mud People, but they may mention fears about the loss of whatever their perception of our national culture happens to be, or Replacement Theory. I've run into some people who have a high opinion of the Militia Groups (they call them "Christian Patriots".
These types of people had been neatly pushed back into the woodwork and had been considered to be neanderthals and dinosaurs, but el Presidente cuarente y cinco gave them cover following Charlottesville.
3-parts,
I thought your 3 part post was of no benefit to the issue, but there were a few interesting factoids and quotes.
Mike
The only advantage Anglo-Isreal doctrine has is that it dominates mainly due to the fact that the West dominates the media and technology for the past few centuries that involves winning major wars (excluding being allied with Russia). “He who controls the media controls the mind.” Sadly it’s the whole basis of their religion. Meanwhile, like the Israelis that reside in the nation-state, they don’t want to or it’s illegal to take a DNA test. Somehow God is not the God of Science.
Where Armstrong was right: In his statement and others from ministers that have followed under his tutelage. “God is allowing mankind thousands of years to try out his own governments, economic systems, religious systems, military and geographical expansions.” Armstrong is correct,as he perhaps was correct on a few other things.
Where Armstrong was wrong: He and others within the ACOG ministry decided to embrace America’s and Britain's physical subjugation over others in the areas of slavery, colonialism or imperialism while claiming to love God's Law. They embraced the “birthright blessings” over how people were treated. They still do to this day. The 2nd commandment is similar to the first. They care about proving they are right by proving points, rather than Christ who knew all things spoke in parables so people wouldn’t get certain concepts.
Britain was an empire, just like America is an empire with territories outside of the mainland. Take Hawaii for an instance, most of those people were of polynesian descent. There was the Persian Empire, Roman Empire, Spanish Empire, Ottoman Empire. When an empire reigns, they get to tell their version of truth without any opposition. So America’s intervention in screwing up Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and even Iran decades ago does influence Bible prophecy.
One doesn’t have to believe in Anglo Israelism to believe in God and have the faith of Jesus Christ. And it’s dangerous for people to think otherwise. They talk about the “big picture”, but really the big picture is making it into a spiritual kingdom and escaping the second death which includes bypassing the human kingdom. COGs could have the gift of prophecy, but if they don’t have love, they have nothing, (1 Cor. 13:2). Unfortunately Armstrong never understood the lesson of “Abram” (not Abaham but Abram).
Romans 9:8 This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children.
Biblical "Israel" is not ethnic Israel, but spiritual Israel -- the Church -- which is a continuation of the old Israel, with believers grafted in and nonbelievers cut off, regardless of ancestry.
Imposing the recently invented US & BC doctrine onto the writings of the OT prophets does nothing but obfuscate them.
The doctrine is not found in Scripture and was not believed for the vast, vast majority of Christian history.
It is a tradition of men that leads to heresy.
Hi Mike,
"... my project ... indicated such a presence of Jewish R1b with origins in the Middle East.... Peter Hrechdakian, the admin of the Armenian and Assyrian DNA Projects, also offers data that further confirms an established R1b presence within the geographic area that was once Assyria" (Sean Silver, groups.jewishgen.org/g/main/topic/70310138).
I suggest that the true identity of the Anglo-Americans will eventually be revealed, confirming typology. I have a presentation entitled “Britain and America in History and the Future - The Typological-Prophetic Connection” (members.optusnet.com.au/futurewatch/id10.htm) from which most of the material from my previous post was made.
In this presentation one will not find ‘throne of Britain’ = throne of David. I have another presentation entitled “The Messianic Rulers and the Throne of David”. A note at the beginning reads:
“This article started out as a simple refutation of the Scriptural interpretations of Tom Robinson in his electronic booklet entitled "The Throne of Britain: It's Biblical Origin and Future" but has developed into something more.”
It is now around 180 A4 pages long. But the format of my presentations and posts are not that well liked or received.
Regards
Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the NORTH to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.
1:48 cited, "... my project ... indicated such a presence of Jewish R1b with origins in the Middle East.... Peter Hrechdakian, the admin of the Armenian and Assyrian DNA Projects, also offers data that further confirms an established R1b presence within the geographic area that was once Assyria" (Sean Silver, groups.jewishgen.org/g/main/topic/70310138)."
This is a reference to ht35. In this R1b variant, DYS393=12 rather than DYS393=13. A couple of points. First, ht35 is not the R1b variant that prevails in the British Isles and Northwest Europe. That is typically R1b-M269 with DYS393=13. That is what my haplogroup is.
Second, as far as I can tell, Sean Silver is not trying to prove that Jews and Brits are racially the same. Nor is he trying to prove that Germans are Assyrians. If he is, it is not going to fly. ht35 will not carry the day.
Jews have been geographically mobile over their history and have mixed with other groups. The predominant haplogroups are J and E. E is a north African haplogroup. Jews have spent some time in and around north Africa. It does not mean that Judah of Genesis 10 carried two haplogroups. A further example: a large number of enrolled Native Americans in North American are haplogroup R1b. This haplogroup was acquired through inter-mixing. It does not suggest some ancient connection to the British Isles.
It is not good to put too much emphasis on haplogroup alone. Albert Einstein and Adolf Hitler were both haplogrup E. In both cases, somewhere along the way, there was some intermixing. It is more useful to have autosomal data to support conjectures about human migrations.
Scout
Quite agree with you Millar Jones/ Lonnie C Hendrix
Anglo Israelism is NOT the truth. That theory has been decidedly debunked. Here on this blog alone. It’s a slam dunk against this highly untenable and sloppy intellectual nonsense. The sources are innumerable pointing out its inherent flaws and irregularities. I was bemused by some comments here calling US as Manasseh, UK a as Ephraim, France as Reuben. Any historian or archaeologist and scholar of languages would be reeling at this irrationality. But then again while you can lead a horse to water you cannot make it drink,lol.
I liken it to the nonsense of Rosh, Magog and Meshech being equated with Russia. Simply bizarre. With a little critical thinking and research, and much well documented material is available; common and widely believed premises have been found to be air and nothing else.
These great powers the USA and Britain are to be found within scripture and are not what those followers of Armstrongism presume. But BI is the most illogical theory of all and about as far from reality as the south is from the north.
I might add, for the followers of HWA, that while there are many studies etc pointing out the BI flaws and follies from secular and theoretical sources, that does not make them incorrect.
1:48
Let me add, there is some ht35 in Great Britain. It is thought to have been brought there by Roman soldiers because it is found where there is a high concentration of haplogroup J, also likely a Roman import.
If you are going to research the topic of Jewish genetics, it is important to carefully identify your target group. It will not do, for some purposes, to study the Ashkenazi. They are mixed with European ancestry. I have read that the Ashkenazi Levites are mostly haplogrup R1a which is and Eastern European haplogroup. Haplogroups abound among groups who are mobile and stressed. For the same reasons, there is genetic diversity among the modern day Assyrians living in the Middle East. Archaeogenetics will eventually sort this all out. As the ancient genetic data accumulates, it will only be the worse for BI and Armstrongism.
Have a look at the following article by Neotherm concerning the ancient Assyrians:
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2022/04/germany-plans-to-rearm-part-2-nations.html
Scout
Comparing the promises God made to Abraham with a broad view of world history, confirms BI. Sorry guys, the shoe fits.
Isaiah 30:10 mentions this non-belief attitude with its "speak onto us smooth things."
And yet Abraham has descendants from three different women.
Anon 3:52:00 PM PDT
‘Comparing the promises God made to Abraham with a broad view of world history, confirms BI’…….
Well actually NO.
This comment of your is very ‘board’ indeed, lol.
Illogical and irrational and oh yes intellectually wanting to say the least.
It’s like saying the queen of the south who came to Solomon in Jerusalem was from Antarctica or South America or the southern pacific islands, perhaps even Australia or NZ, lol…..
It’s like calling the term ‘Rosh’ in Ezekiel as compatible with Russia, which is absolutely absurd, especially to Hebrew scholars and speakers.
If I sound sarcastic it is entirely intentional, as BI has absolutely no legs to stand on. It over, BI proponents lose. It’s a slam dunk against this preposterous theory. What is sure, as sure as this theology is a dead duck; is its proponents are slowly dying out and their numbers are dwindling to almost zero. In that I rejoice.
Now have you heard of the ‘good news’ that our Lord and Saviour gave to us in His unsearchable love for mankind?
Plus sons of Abraham's concubines.
When I quoted Sean Silver I was not suggesting he was “ trying to prove that Jews and Brits are racially the same. Nor is he trying to prove that Germans are Assyrians.”
You wrote: “It is not good to put too much emphasis on haplogroup alone” and “there is genetic diversity among the modern day Assyrians living in the Middle East. Archaeogenetics will eventually sort this all out”.
The choice of words of my comment was behind the uncertainty: “I suggest that the true identity of the Anglo-Americans will eventually be revealed”.
Perhaps nck would argue a bone discovery of an ancient Israelite may be the key. This is something nck wrote in 2018:
My point neo is that only 2000 years ago, non of the people of france is related to modern french. Probably non of the modern people in turkey related to the roman greeks of the bible in asia minor, non of the modern syrians related to the hittites, non of the modern aystralians connected to the ancient bones in the ground...
MEO's genetics are not proving anything UNLESS ancient bone material is analysed of the original peoples. Neo is kinda proving that the original inhsbitants of the usa were greek since he found the bones of telly savallas.
Most Europeans come from the black sea area. The question that remains are, who are the modern jews?
3:52
The historical argument has been used excessively but remains a weak and easily refuted argument. It has not improved with age.
Have a look at:
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2022/03/the-gates-of-your-enemies-anglo.html
Scout
"My remarks didn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigration. Hence, while I accept the distinction which you introduced, that does not invalidate my statement about his strong anti-immigrant messaging"
Lonnie should open his home and lodge/sponsor some of the millions of "immigrants", as he calls them.
7:03 wrote, "And yet Abraham has descendants from three different women."
8:27 wrote, "Plus sons of Abraham's concubines."
I may be misinterpreting what you are saying but let me make this statement. It is not possible for Abraham to give rise to people who are in a variety of haplogroups. Abraham will pass down to his descendants a single haplogroup in the masculine line. If Abraham is haplogroup J, then a Jew who is haplogroup E is not descended from him in the masculine line. He is descended from someone who is North African.
The women that Abraham married, will contribute mitochondrial DNA to their descendants. MtDNA follows the maternal line. So if there is no inter-mixing with others, Abraham's descendents will reflect a single masculine haplogroup but a variety of mtDNA haplogroups. (People have a single masculine haplogroup and a single maternal haplogroup.)
Abraham was haplogroup J. That is the predominant haplogroup up the Jews and the Adnani Arabs who claim descent from Abraham. Abraham did not give rise to the Northwest European haplogroup R. The Brits, as a nation, are not haplogroup J and do not have Middle Eastern mtDNA. The Brits are not descended from Abraham. They are descended from herding peoples who lived on the steppes of Russia. From the Biblical perspective, they are Gentiles.
The argument that Brits may have a haplogroup that does not reflect what they are in their full genome - that they are so to speak crypto Jews or crypto Israelites - does not fly. Geneticists can do autosomal studies at the genomic level and have done so. And the Brits are at a large genetic distance from Jews. Historical incidents and other circumstantial evidences cannot trump the biological evidence. The history must be reinterpreted in light of the bioloigcal evidence or we must deny science and believe stories.
If you are a Christian, you are then a spiritual Jew. But Armstrongists seemed to be obsessed with the flesh - they must be fleshly Israelites. The carnal dominates their thinking.
Scout
8:54 cited nck, "NEO's genetics are not proving anything UNLESS ancient bone material is analysed of the original peoples."
I do not accept this viewpoint entirely. I do believe that there is some history that can help interpret migrations of peoples. For instance, Jesus came to his own. He came to the Jews of the Middle East. History tell us that these are the same Jews that live in the Middle East today. These Jews are predominantly haplogroup J. It is then an easy deduction that Jesus was haplogroup J and his Jewish cohort was haplogroup J. And that the Brits are unrelated to the people of the Middle East.
But in the last analysis, archaeogenetics gives the cleanest answer as nck suggests. Unfortunately, this is dependent on conditions of preservation. With more and better excavations, there will be an accumulation of more definitive evidence and the BI theory will progressively weaken.
The current state of archaeogenetic evidence is that the Brits are unrelated to the Jews. According to the BI theory, the area of the northern ten tribes should have been densely populated by Northwest Europeans who were haplogroup R1b. Archaeologists should then have found many burials whose skeletal remains are haplogroup R1b. I have not seen anywhere in the literature where this has happened.
On the other hand, scientists know that basal haplogroup R* originated in the upper paleothic about 27,0000 years ago based on mutational rates. There is a set of bones that supports this. The bones yielded basal R* in a burial from the Mal'ta-Buret Culture in Siberia at an age of 24,000 BP.
Genetics indicates now and will indicate tomorrow and forever that the Jews and the Brits are not the same people as we define races. (Actually, everyone is related and are mutational descendants of Black African people but that is another topic. Armstrongists will fall on their swords in that debate.)
Scout
8:54 stated, "Most Europeans come from the black sea area. The question that remains are, who are the modern jews?"
Europeans are predominantly haplgroups R1b and R1a. These haplogroups probably originated on the steppes of Russia north of the Black Sea. These people are Indo-European, Step;pe Pastoralists and totally Gentile. Note that they did not orginate in the Middle East and you will not be able to find anything in the scientific literature that supports that idea.
The modern Jews are a mix of haplogroups but are autosomally pretty homogenous. The exception would be the Ashkenazi who are from 30 to 70 percent European. They group near Europeans, especially Italians, on genetic distance charts. Middle Eastern Jews group near, wait for it, the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. By "Middle Eastern Jews" I do not mean that Ashkenazi who migrated from Europe to Palestine in the middle of the last century. I am talking about the Jews who remained indigenous to the Middle East over the centuries such as the Mizrahi.
There is no mystery about the Jews. You can read a few articles in Wikipedia and understand who the Jews are pretty much. There are anti-Semites and BI advocates who want to muddy the waters but you do not find this lack of clarity among anthropologists. There were a group of people in the WCG at one time who thought the Ashkenazi were actually descended from the Biblical Ashkenaz - the Jewish term for Germany - and were all Gentiles. And the real Jews were a population somewhere on the North American continent. Pure malarkey - based on a book by Arthur Koestler. This is back in the days when there was much suspicion about Stanley Rader.
Scout
Armstrongism has become so ugly, what with all the stretch marks from unnatural attempts to make all of their stuff fit.
I treat with a grain of salt all of Neo's articles having to do with haplogroups. Unless one is intimately familiar with the topic, there's no way for readers to be able to evaluate his claims. It's all just 'trust me.'
OK, 3:40, so that's how you're going to give the false prophecy mongers and their British Israelism a pass???
I guess you deserve whatever comes your way. Actually, we had rock solid evidence from about 6 or 7 different fields proving that BI was impossible prior to the mapping of the human genome. It's just that genetics are a quick and direct way of dispatching the theory on which Armstrongism is based. None of you guys will ever accept those proofs because you know that if BI fails, Armstrongism goes down the tubes with it.
About 2,000 years ago, the seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ, made this all a spiritual thing instead of genetic. Christians became the new Israelites and heirs of the promises to Abraham. It's a much tidier process, and less complicated. It does not require lying or manipulation. HWA had to disavow what Paul said, and to go the genetic route because he labeled the millions of Christians who lived and died from the first century forward as "Christians falsely so-called". So, he had to find himself some Israelites, and he picked the Brits! His entire scam is based on it. I hope you didn't give Armstrongism all of your financial blessings. You didn't actually do that, did you???
"I treat with a grain of salt all of Neo's articles having to do with haplogroups. Unless one is intimately familiar with the topic, there's no way for readers to be able to evaluate his claims. It's all just 'trust me.'"
That is the lazy self-righteous attitude of Armstrongites. You swallowed the crap of Herbert Armstrong, GTA, Meredith, and others as gospel truth, yet you are too lazy to do a little research on the topic. Neo's hapalogroup articles are easily verified with countless articles and well researched web sites. Use your \brain for once before engaging your mouth.
According to Visual Capitalist German is the most spoken language (other than English and Spanish) in the US--www.zerohedge.com/political/most-spoken-language-every-us-state-besides-english-spanish
Maybe America is turning Assyrian and will ally with the future Assyrian Beast power enslaving its own Israelitish citizens who object just like the Egyptian Pharaoh (and his government) enslaved the Israelites.
Scout said:
"Actually, everyone is related and are mutational descendants of Black African people but that is another topic. Armstrongists will fall on their swords in that debate."
I've heard the same thing- modern science says that ALL humanity came from Africa long ago. It makes me wonder when people use the term 'African American'... WTF? What other type of American person could there be? ;)
Then there's that 'Person of Color' (POC) thing. Didn't Isaac Newton discover the white is all of the colors of the rainbow combined? Seriously, if you want to say POC, just cut the freaking BS and say what you really mean- 'Non-White'.
Oh, and lest I forget about that 'Previously Owned' crap going on at an auto dealer near you (don't you mean 'Used Car'?). The very fact that you can buy a brand-new car screams the fact that it was previously owned by someone or something!
*END OF RANT*
"You swallowed the crap of Herbert Armstrong, GTA, Meredith, and others as gospel truth, yet you are too lazy to do a little research on the topic."
That's exactly the point I was trying to make in my 3.40 post. Why did we as a group swallow the crap of HWA and his minions? Because it took time to accumulate the knowledge required to see through Herbs lies, half truths and distortions. This is a principle that applies to every field of philosophy, religion and politics. And it even applies in the scientific realm with abusive cults "sacred science."
Again, having been conned by HWA, I'm not going to be conned again by other "experts" and their "proofs."
You gotta keep up on the terms, Ronco, if you want to stay in the game.
It's always been that way, though, when you think about it. The linguistic changes just came from different sources. When I was a kid, and was bringing new words home from school, my parents reprimanded me for using slang, or "beatnik" language. My dad went so far as to say that it was a plot to change the language so that "your elders" can't understand what is going on. When he made this remark, he had just taken umbrage with the fact that I called a Corvette a 'vette. We were in the car at the time, and a Buick passed and he pointed to it and asked if I was going to call it an 'ick. It really pissed them off, in fact so much that I was forbidden to watch "Leave it to Beaver" because Wally, the cool older brother, used so much slang.
As for the words you cited, bullying, or sometimes just everyday experiences, gradually turn some of the commonly used terms into pejoratives. Those affected seek to find new descriptives, and will often institute changes in an attempt to sublimate. As for "African
American", when I was a kid, most of the people I knew used the nickname for "negro". Via the NAACP, many black people preferred the term "Colored". Our Southern brothers liked it too, in fact a little too much, so much that they went ape shit and put it on bathrooms, hotels and motels, restaurants, and even sections of movie theatres. So, the terms "Black" and "Afro American came into play, until about thirty years ago when the term "African American" came into vogue, following an existing standard already applied to Italian Americans, Polish Americans, and Mexican Americans. This greatly irritated Rush Limbaugh who spent much time complaining about the usage of "hyphenated-Americans" as a descriptive.
Note, there are two topics above. The fact is, they are interrelated. 35 years ago, many African Americans spoke two languages. One was the formal language learned in school, and the other was just becoming know by the mainstream as "Ebonics", or as linguistic scholars called
it, "Negritic Ebonics". Since Black people are the most imitated people on the face of the earth, many of the words and versions of the words used in Ebonics entered the mainstream. What's true is, most of the black people I know speak pretty much just as I do these days. No accents, no deep slang. The stuff is still present in rap music and is used by folks stuck in the 'hood. (and there's another word), but most of the time these days if a black person calls you on the telephone, you are most likely not going to be able to discern race from conversation.
When we were Armstrongites, we got in the habit of citing decay and degeneracy all the time. Amstrongism was such a negative religion!
But the fact is, I've seen a lot of positive change during my lifetime, and improvements to our terminology is part of that. Fact is, we used to refer to so many people with words that had extremely cruel connotations. I like our new vocabulary words. Makes one feel as if he is enlightened, and part of the solution!
Ronco:
The nested haplogoup structure that defines the human genome has at the root Y-Chromosome Haplogroup A. It is at the origin and that is why it is designated by "A". (See Wikipedia, "Y-chromosomal Adam)
If Adam was the first biological human, he was a Black man living in Africa. And he was haplogroup A. You can see photos of these haplogroup A people by looking them up with Google and looking at the images. We are all descended from them. In fact, their genetic configuration is carried in your genome.
Much later, Europe was populated by Hunter-Gatherers. These people had dark skin and blue eyes. Mutation had progressed only partially by this time. See, for example, the article at:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/europeans-had-dark-skin-blue-eyes-7-000-years-ago-1.2512465#:~:text=A%20genetic%20analysis%20of%20an,dark%20skin%20and%20blue%20eyes.
They sequence the genome of 7000 year old skeletal remains The article states:
"A genetic analysis of an ancient European hunter-gatherer reveals that his face was a striking combination of dark skin and blue eyes."
Then it states who are the modern descendants of these ancient dark-skinned people and they are:
"Lalueza-Fox's team traced the man's closest modern-day relatives to northern European countries like Sweden and Finland."
I don't think BI fans will ever find this acceptable. But, interestingly, it is how God decided to do things. But they should not find it disturbing - Paul stated that all men are of one blood.
Scout
What I find interesting re BI is that it's not only UK/USA that have historically acted on the world stage under the influence of this belief attributing their success to some kind of "manifest destiny." Even the Zionist PM Netanyahu with this latest round of war equated Hamas and, by extension, the innocent Palestinians with the descendants of Amalek. This is some level of delusion that boggles my mind. I can only compare it to as if during the Troubles in NI the UK PM, professing belief in some fringe cult of the BI variant equated the IRA and, hence, all the innocent Irish to be descendants of Canaan and co-opting God's orders in the Bible to Israel thousands of years ago marked them for extermination all to serve his own political agenda. Complete bonkers! But, here we are with the Zionist government intent on annihilating the modern "Amalekites" and the Secularist government of the US supporting them in this insanity.
Scout,
I’ll have to look into this more. One thing that throws me off is the element of racist intent you often bring up. If it is a pervading belief in the field that those who believed BI did so for racist goals, then does a desire to attack that assumed racist intent then bias the studies? I have imagined a black Jesus and my adoration is unchanged. Having a dark skinned ancestry is fine with me …if true.
I am no longer an adherent to BI (and all else Armstrongism) though while in wcg I thought it was one of the most interesting teachings. I believed it and presume you did too. Did your belief at the time include racism? I don’t believe mine did. This is not to say the teaching itself didn’t include racist elements, butI don’t think that most in the wcg believed it from a racist bent. Maybe you saw things I didn’t.
I think it damages your argument to lean into the racism element, at leas for the readership here. Most here believed hwa’s BI because hwa said it and we thought God was using him as an apostle of some sort. The reality I saw was that we had a racially integrated congregation wherein all were treated as “ the elect” including our minority race members. I grant I was young and optimistic at the time and from some of your posts it seems you experienced the more jaded pasadena whereas my experience was only as a student who primarily interacted with fellow students.
So, I question the even handedness of these studies that say scandinavians were dark skinned when it is presented as something that will shock the racist as I wonder if the findings were skewed more to “shock the racist” than to lay out facts. Otherwise I find the idea fascinating that skin pigmentation could change so quickly. Just something to consider; I very much appreciate the research you have shared on the topic over the years.
Mike
The rebels from within the COG ministry who dwell and influence this blog hate identifying the tribes of Israel because they don't know who they are themselves.
Mike 5:42 wrote, "I think it damages your argument to lean into the racism element, at least for the readership here."
To ignore the racism in BI is to ignore the elephant in the room. I will admit that there were people I met in the WCG that seem to support a benign implementation of BI. I can't tell you how many people fell into that category - nobody has every done any sociological surveys and now it is too late. As you know there were a collection of race based policies in the WCG. These are hardly unnoticeable. I don't think we can disconnect these policies from BI.
I met many lay members in the WCG who would make blatantly racists statements with the innocence of child - as if it made no difference and was simply an article of faith. I could not detect any animus in these people - but their innocent attitude does not render their words innocent or non-destructive. They would make racist statements with the same serene confidence as someone would have in saying "the sky is blue". To them, they were just citing known and widely-accepted (at least in Armstrongism) facts. This cannot be simply overlooked as youth and optimism.
I once wrote a letter to GTA and asked him a couple of questions. They were 1) Does HWA dislike Native Americans and 2) Why is there a theme of racism in the WCG. He wrote back and his answer to point 1 was that he had never heard his Dad make a statement that was negative towards Native Americans. On point 2, he cited British Israelism and the likely source of the problem.
Some of the statements I make would only shock someone who has racist inclinations. No apologies.
Scout
Anything which purports to favor one ethnic group over another is by definition inherently racist in nature.
To 11:07 What they (rebels) do know is that they identify themselves as Christians or ambassadors of Christ (2 Cor. 5:20) rather than their race (flesh) that has been mixed down through millennia. See you sound like your an ambassador for your tribe of Israel over being an ambassador of Christ.
Your confidence is in the flesh. This is what Paul stated:
Philippians 3:4-5 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
But he realized his confidence was being found in Christ!
Philippians 3:7-9 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law,
To Mike: “I think it damages your argument to lean into the racism element, at leas for the readership here.”
The damages were actually the racism that occurs and occurred within these cogs. I attended one of these splinter groups for years and had several racist encounters and comments that came my way due to me being a black man. Those encounters will be shared at some other time mainly because nobody really cares.
The BI doctrine whether knowingly or unknowingly, supports the racism. Not only that it supports this physical birthright blessings while ignoring the spiritual blessing in Christ under the New Coovenant. And within those birthright blessings, it ignores the slavery, colonialism imperialism (gaining the whole world attitude) from those “tribal-nations” Amer, Brit, Fra….., which goes against God’s Laws towards man (people of color). You know, the Law that they claim to love so much.
Israel
Jer 50:4 IN THOSE DAYS ... the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together...
Jer 50:5b saying, Come, and let us join [lavah] ourselves to the LORD...
Eze 37:27b and they shall be [hayah] My [li] people ['am]
Zec 2:10b and I will dwell [sakan] in the midst of thee
Gentiles
Zec 2:11a And many nations shall be joined [lavah] to the Lord IN THAT DAY,
Zec 2:11b and shall be [hayah] My [li] people ['am]:
Zec 2:11c and I will dwell [saken] in the midst [tavek] of thee
"Zechariah affirms two things here that are always held in a delicate balance in Scripture. The first is the special place of Israel in God's purposes, represented here by Judah and Jerusalem (8, 12); the second his intention, finally to include people of many nations, and to own them as my people just as surely as he owned Israel (11). Again we are in touch with a theme that arcs right across the biblical revelation. It is a programme announced in the promises to Abraham, who was called to 'leave' (be separated from) others, to live in a special, covenantal relationship with God, so that through him, all peoples on earth might be blessed. The programme is realized in the person of Jesus Christ, the true seed of Abraham, in whom all the promises of God are fulfilled. It is vital that we realize, however, that the fulfilment in Christ does not obliterate the special place of Israel in God purposes, it brings it to perfect realization. Only by bowing the knee to the true seed of Abraham, the one perfect Israelite, can one be saved. There is no Saviour but Israel's Messiah, and no God but Israel's God... Zechariah expresses that same truth in terms of pilgrimage to Zion. There is only one place to which all must come in order to be saved. Only there will God dwell with his people..." (Barry Webb, The Message of Zechariah, BST, p.82-83).
Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined [lavah] with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
Isa 56:6 And foreigners, that join [lavah] themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people ['am] (Isa 56:6-7).
"Jeremiah 50:5 anticipates that Judah and Israel will return to Jerusalem and will "bind (lwh, "join") themselves to the Lord by everlasting covenant". Isaiah 14:1 looks forward to the time when people from other nations will also bind themselves (lwh) to God. Non-Jews [better non-Israelites] ... join make a commitment to serve, worship, and love the name of the Lord, to honor the Sabbath, and to "hold fast to my covenant" (Isa 56:6)... Here in verse 11 Zechariah also speaks of "nations," not just individuals. The Lord extends a covenant relationship to these nations. They will become my people is one half of the covenant formula previously offered to Israel, "I will be their God, and they will be my people" (e.g., Exod 6:7)..." (Pamela J. Scalise, Zechariah, "Minor Prophets II," NIBC, pp.215-16).
Isaiah 19:25 whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance
11:35
It is interesting that Dean Blackwell interpreted Isaiah 19:24-25 to mean that Egypt and Assyria would both be servant nations to Israel in the Kingdom of God. He did this in a sermon he gave in a large midwestern church I used to attend. I believe this was on one of his tours around the country where he explained the WCG doctrine of race.
Nobody in the audience seemed to respond to his creative, ad hoc editing of scripture.
Scout
Hey Scout,
I heard about that too. I think he read too much into that scripture. LOL
What I find also interesting is that they never cover how Esau was to serve Jacob and fit it into end time prophecy.
Genesis 27:40 By your sword you shall live, And you shall serve your brother;
And it shall come to pass, when you become restless, That you shall break his yoke from your neck.”
Or I wonder did they ever talk about that Esau nation serving a Jacob nation?
I liken the racism in the WCG to other similar situations.. There were people who were raised believing that it was wrong to drink alcohol. When they came into the church, real wine was used for Passover, and scriptures linking alcohol to the proper enjoyment of the Feasts were quoted. Some of these people ended up being alcoholics. There were parents who came into the church never having spanked their children. They learned of the child rearing booklet, considered regular spanking to be a godly parenting skill, and practiced it diligently to the point of it degenerating into horrid child abuse. Like in kind was the situation with people who came into the church with not a racist bone in their body. They learned British Israelism, suppositions regarding the time of the gentiles, the mark of Cain, and the curse upon Canaan, and next thing you know, they are full blown racists, and actually believing that racism is God's way!
There are so many ways in which the so-called COG was totally FUBAR, completely anti-Christian, and virulently destructive of the good parts of human nature that I will never how my parents as supposedly intelligent adults fell for it all, and actually died still being part of that hot mess, even though the prophecies clearly weren't happening at all! I wish them no malice. Actually, Armstrongism is a self-punishing offense. Too bad it wrecks otherwise good people!
They also promoted this “restoring family values”, but then families were destroyed with their divorce and remarriage situation. Creating splits in some cases.
Or the belief system that going to the doctor was bad, when someone could have received a simple procedure. They need to humble themselves. But hey, we all make mistakes.
I'm just glad people didn't sell their homes by the thousands and didn't leave for Petra from the 1972/75 failed prophecy. And even though they tell people don't set dates, they do this.
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