Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Dave Pack: Young People In The Church Will NOT Be Part Of The 144,000. WUT?????
Imagine being a young person sitting in church services and hearing this kind of bullshit!
Armstrongism is vile to the core
53 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Young people get a raw deal off many a leader in these modern times.
I recall a Church Camp Director waltzing upto me on Day of Atonement once, years ago and launching into complaining about a young female. When I categorically refused to be involved he then turned on me. It was appalling to me as I knew the young female would have considered the camp leaders her friends and mentors.
But of course let's point all fingers at Dave Pack.
To interpret this: Mr. Pack's two videos on the "short kingdom" before the millennium indicate some people only have a little of the Holy Spirit and are "not fully qualified for eternal life."
They're "incomplete" saints, as opposed to "complete" one, he says. He indicates the incomplete ones are the "lukewarm" Laodicians of Revelation 3.
He gives no Biblical evidence for that - while Matthew 24:13 indicates ANYONE who endures to the end will be saved.
Not half-saved. Not advancing to a "last-chance qualifying" round like in NASCAR. They're saved!
Many in the ACOGs claim that they don't teach salvation by works. They say that salvation is a free gift, but your "reward" in the Kingdom is determined by your works.
Dave here proves that to be a lie. He is plainly teaching salvation by works.
And I think he has it backwards. He thinks that the young people aren't yet "good enough" to be saved. In fact, it's often the newly baptized who are the most full of zeal and innocence, who haven't yet grown complacent upon seeing how the church rewards hypocrisy and unchristian conduct in those who seek to "get ahead" in the church.
Make sure you are part of the 144,000! Just send in ALL OF YOUR MONEY, plus two box tops and you will receive your "secret membership card", and your "Dave Pack decoder ring"!
I think Dave is teaching that since time is so short, young people will not have the time to deeply mature and hence qualify for a high position in the kingdom. Common sense is that this will eventually apply to some group. There's no injustice here since they did not experience tribulation over an extended period of time. But what Dave and other ministers keep getting wrong is the timing. I heard something similar from the pulpit in the mid 1980s, and even earlier in church publications.
There is no such thing as a member of the RCG! These are most definitely not members in the way church membership has been traditionally defined and understood. They are Dave's codependents!
It all comes down to money. Young people have none so Pack is pissed off that most of the bums on the seats are not in the position to 'buy' their spot in Daves/Gods kingdom. He's just being a nasty spitful turd.
Certain men: Dave Pack (like some leader of the pack"), and Franks, and Weston, and Flurry, and Winnail, and Weinland, and Shabi, etc., hirelings of the former WCG, all think they are, and have, qualified by their works and want everybody else to be "like me:" like them, and "make it" like they think they have qualified/“made it” into the "very soon" Mickey Mouse "Club" (MM Millennium) to reign with Jesus Christ on this Earth, instead of being at the Father's right hand for a while, like Jesus did. Like who? Their "hero."
That “qualifying by their works of SELF,” could be called Fear Religion, "follow me or fail," which is about the only thing they seem to understand in this world that is run by another father (John 8:44; James 4:5; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
That thought is not all that different from those certain men (Acts 15), inspired by the god of this present evil world, striving to convince those of God’s Church that circumcision was needful to be qualified: circumcised to be saved.
But young people, young men and young women, not being part of the 144,000? How does Dave Pack know that?
Wouldn't it be better to be part of the young people: little children even, who know The God, The Father, that God of the Old Testament (Acts 3:13 “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus;…”)?
"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father." 1 John 2:13
Which father? Jesus knew, while this world was deceived and under cover of darkness, who His God, His Father, was.
John 17:25 "O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me."
As an aside, currently, Donald Trump is seemingly pulling the lambskins off of the "wolves" and exposing them and their evils perpetrated by the "god of this world” through human beings that have been causing evils for a long time? Anything new under the sun?
Once upon a time all of the hirelings of the former WCG thought it was part of one Church where one leader was in charge. What happened? They no longer believe that, and they can’t figure out who is qualified to be in charge. So, they picked up their “bat and ball” and fled (John 10:12-13), leaving their ministerial credentials behind in Pasadena to start-up their own scattered man-made organizations, groups, Ass(s), etc., and then put themSELVES in charge. Is that confusion or what? Lambskins?
Dave Pack is obviously being exposed: like that emperor running around with his mouth spewing out evil thoughts, but he’s naked and doesn’t know it. Are the rest of the hirelings following “the Pack?” Time is telling.
When will Dave Pack, along with the other hirelings of the former wcg, realize that they no longer have their lambskins covering them anymore, and they are being exposed for who they may be, and it’s not “of God,” but just may be “of god?”
Dave Pack could be tapping into the undocumented thought, that prevails amongst a fair few silent generation and baby boomers, from across the COG groups, that only "Baby Boomers" are converted and called and not Generation X or Millenniums. That somehow God decided that the 'Baby Boomers' would be the last generation he called.
Probably true, what you are saying about their line of thought, 5:18. But, the funny thing is that back around 1975, before God passed on validating HWA, the big question was whether baby boomers would be instantly changed when Christ returned, or would we prefer to live out our physical lives being married and raising our families in the Millennium. The kids that got baptized in their senior year in high school were looked to kind of as spokespersons for the generation, and there were varying opinions. I personally felt that it was useless to speculate, because as with so many other things taught in the church we weren't going to get a vote.
Obviously God is also failing to validate people like Dave Pack (can't get a single "sure shot" prophecy right), or the invisible Bob Thiel, Gerald "the Dance King" Flurry, Ron the tax cheat Weinland, first century "Islamic Christian" Wade Cox, or any of the shrinking alphabet ACOGs, so the young people of today need not worry about this issue.
I find it totally weird that people would still be speculating about such a thing. Looks like some people are still banking on false prophets somehow turning out as being correct. They learned absolutely nothing from 1975!
Speculating is a natural human trait. Another possibility is that God will stop offering the holy spirit (water baptism only) shortly before His second coming. We don't know.
I remember the time when Pasedena as in 'WCG Pasedena' was referred to as 'Satan's Lair".
You present the erronous image that before Herbert Armstrongs heart attack and age caught up with him, that the "hirelings" all fell in line and it was a utopia of agreement under the force of Herbert's leadership. That is not the case as fractions of all kinds had always existed in WCG. I remember a 'fraction' that perceived Loma as being a believer in Jesus Christ and a Sabbath keeper but not Herbert. That he was in it for the money. This 'fraction' has died out over the years.
Dave Pack as a young man and new minister got involved in a RCG/WCG exorcism programme and who knows what road that led him down. It may, or may not account for his exceptional foolishness in date setting and extreme oddness.
Anon, Friday, February 7, 2025 at 11:39:43 PM PST, wrote:
"...You present the erronous image that before Herbert Armstrongs heart attack and age caught up with him, that the "hirelings" all fell in line and it was a utopia of agreement under the force of Herbert's leadership. That is not the case as fractions of all kinds had always existed in WCG. ****** Anon,
How could you have concluded that I presented such an "erronous image...that the "hirelings" all fell in line and it was a utopia of agreement under the force of Herbert's leadership" before Herbert W. Armstrong's heart attack? I didn't even mention his name.
I have never said that the hirelings "fell in line."
What does Revelation 2-3 tell us? God's Church throughout the eras would be impacted, in different ways, by Satan. So, expect confusion to exist somehow within God's Church over the past approximately 2,000 years.
Think about Ambassador College (AC). Most of those who graduated did not share what they learned from AC, but instead shared a lot of their own ideas, theories, their fear religion, other stuff that was in their heads, etc.
At one time HWA mentioned that many were into Protestantism, and HWA was speaking about the ministry, so he knew they weren't falling into line as if in some utopia under his power and control...”his force.”
Again, the words of Revelation 2-3 are true. And 2 Cor 11:13-15; John 8:44, 2 Tim 2:26, Eph 6:12, etc. are also true.
How did Satan impact God’s Church?
Re 2:9 “I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Re 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. Re 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. Re 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.”
Oh only if the ACOGs and the rest of the "Pack" would humble themselves as a little children.
Matthew 18:3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Why do they continue to slight the young people in their splinter organizations? They did it in the past, and still do it today.
Now, how much concern was there about factions after the death of HWA, and at the time of the establishment of one of those man-made, probably Satan-inspired, factions: the United Ass. I have often brought up that factions have existed: there was no hireling (s) “fall in line” utopian agreement under some “force” of HWA.
[[CAN IT EVER BE? That cohesive, Christ-led entity that we all want so dearly? Or does Indy seal our fate to factions and factions? The hopes are high, the stakes are critical. Indy will be either a dawning of a New World Tomorrow, or the proof of our folly.
PIE IN THE SKY is what the detractors say. Some of them are us, you know. Our “leaders” have already laid foundations and are even laying superstructure. The meek words of just a few weeks ago… “We’ve just started this in case it’s of any help, but we’ll gladly dissolve it” are seemingly replaced with corporate structure lauding the wisdom of “follow me.” Has “unity” already slipped to a cliché, a buzzword of egotists? I’ve seen that once people invest time, money and gain supporters they “have God’s blessing.” After all, they prayed about it.
Dissolution of their structure for a greater cause becomes too great a defeat. The show must go on.
WHAT IS INDY? It’s a chance for a ground up, New Testament organized body of believers.
WHAT WILL INDY BE? I know what you and I want it to be. But do you know what many see it as? Separate leaders of several pre-formed groups pushing their system at each other, followed by the winner selling it to the ministry. The ministry is invited to view the outcome and cast in their lot, depending on who "wins" and if they like the smell of it.
WHO LOOSES IF INDY FALTERS? The churches back home. The little flocks who are staking their faith in Indy. The loyal pastors who have forfeited everything to wait on Christ and to come learn his will for their next step. I hope He’s there. He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
Just some concerns and fears…I don’t know what it WILL be, I know what it MIGHT be and what it CAN be. I’ll be there in support. Be careful who gets control. Make sure it’s God.]]
Shown between the [[brackets]] is a memo sent to Victor Kubik by a minister regarding our hopes for Indianapolis. It was read by Vic Kubik on May 2, 1995, the last day of the Indianapolis Conference, to all attending (included about 150 “elders,” mates, “etc.). That was 9 years after the death of HWA there was concern about factions and fractions, and we have a history of that ever since.
And guess what?
I agree with your writing "...fractions of all kinds had always existed in WCG..."
In fact, if truth be known, factions and fractions existed before HWA's heart attack...and probably throughout his entire ministry.
Anon, Friday, February 7, 2025 at 10:35:18 PM PST, wrote:
Speculating is a natural human trait. Another possibility is that God will stop offering the holy spirit (water baptism only) shortly before His second coming. We don't know. ****** What second coming? Speculating? Are you not into speculating? Where is Jesus Christ today? Why isn't He here reigning on earth with all of those hirelings of the former WCG? What's the hold up?
"...God will stop offering the holy spirit (water baptism only) shortly before His second coming?" Where's the proof? Well, you admitted: "We don't know."
We all know the story of Christ and His life, and that murder at the end when He was killed. That was His first coming, right?
He came down from Heaven to earth and was made flesh. That was His first coming. We know that.
Well, did Jesus come down from Heaven again? And the answer is, “Yes!”
Proof that Jesus came to earth again a second time, a second coming, but only hung around for about 40 days. Proof?
John 20:16-23; Acts 1:3; I Cor 15:4-6.
You may look those verses up; we have the same Book.
Water baptism was "in" via John the Baptist near the completion of Jesus' first coming. Jesus again returned to earth for 40 days: His second coming. About 10 days later, after Jesus again returned to His Father's right hand, was Pentecost, God continued to add members to God's Church, and baptism was still "in," as it still is to this day.
Has God finished the building of the Bride: His Church? Are members still being added today? Will God stop granting/giving His Spirit before Jesus' third coming?
Will God stop offering His Spirit shortly before Jesus' third coming? Will that Bride have been completed by then?
Here's a possible hint: speculation, if you will.
Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: :12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it]."
In any event, Biblically-speaking the second coming has already occurred and/but time will tell...
The factor which caused the supposed "unity" in the WCG was the fear of HWA's explosive temper. Any subservients who held differences of opinion would capitulate, or run the risk of him going nuclear on them. The cost of that type of unity just in terms of damage to each individual's conscience and character was exhorbitant.
Years ago, I read materials written by Dr. Charles Stanley, some of which concerned the leadership style used in his church. There was prayer and discussion until consensus was reached, as opposed to one man, authoritarian rule. The part which impressed me about that was that the very process bypassed all the foibles of one man, unchecked rule. I'm not implying that Dr. Stanley became my new guru, or anything of the kind. I had sworn off the very concept of a guru after one miserable example. But he certainly presented some higher ground alternatives to many of the things we all heard from HWA. The Christian leadership model that Dr. Stanley taught appeared to be authentically in line with the fruits exuded by Jesus and his disciples/apostles.
Of course, none of us would have even looked in that direction back in the day, because HWA's own perverse leadership style mandated that we single-source all knowledge of the spiritual to him, the only human in whom God had centered His government and authority. HWA blinded us to the sincerity of outsiders by labeling them as "sincerely deceived". Some, he said, actually knew better than what they taught.
Unity and iron-clad rule are two completely different things. In order to be authentic, and a deeply embedded part of one's character, unity must be voluntary.
......"the second time".....Heb 9:28 has not occurred yet. Maybe on Pentecost in this 6001st year (speculating, of course!). Meanwhile question: did Thomas see Jesus through 40 days.....John 20:24-29?
Years ago, on one of the old forums which was actually password protected, a lady who assumed that what she shared was confidential and protected wrote about some of the abuses her father was enduring as a member of Flurry's group (another extreme ACOG). Somehow, one of Flurry's lackies was under cover on the forum, and was able to correlate the shared details with the correct member, and immediately went to the man's home and disfellowshipped him! The father then joined up with UCG. It was the one case I've ever seen discussed on any of the Armstrongism-recovery sites where all the participants were happy that someone had become a member of an ACOG. Joining UCG was not a total solution, but at least the man was no longer required to shun his daughter, and could get proper medical attention for some age-related illnesses that he was experiencing.
I don't understand the level of hold the more extreme and demanding ACOG leaders have over their members. I would have to guess that these members are more or less in the dark regarding some of the insider-information from some of the other ACOGs that is well known and frequently shared here. Then again, there will always be ascetic, obsessive/compulsive types who believe that the more demanding their beliefs are, the more authentic their splinter is.
And, to think that we all once laughed about Jesuits who practiced self-flagellation, or other believers who would crawl up the rock or concrete stairs to their temple on bloody knees! The things that people do to themselves at the behest of extreme mentors!
Dave Pack always reminded me of the Neidermeyer character in Animal House.
The big problem with the old Armstrong timeline was that you really had to manipulate facts and fan non-existent flames to make it appear believable that the end was anywhere close on rhe horizon. Starting in 2017, trends which have nothing to do with Armstrongism or any 144,000 began to emerge, and to build towards imminent climax. Now, one needs to deny and suppress these trends to make it appear as if the end is not forthcoming. It doesn't matter which political party is in power. We're in bigtime trouble. Multiple existential threats are on runaway nuclear meltdown pattern, and our guy is feeding the meltdown. Leading up to that, the guy before him was not all there for his last two years. Buckle up!
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt "John" as the 'tripe you've served cold' comment above is by far the worst I've ever read. Might be all the looking back at the 'Indy conference speech' memories that put your head in a spin and you forgot the gospel of Matthew's account of Jesus Christ's second coming, which every eye shall see. Jesus Christ is not returning quietly to only a few noticing. Isaiah 61, only verses 1-2 have been fulfilled. Jesus is really only getting started.
For if Jesus, showing the apostles his crucifixion scars before he'd been presented to the Father then why did all the apostles, including Paul expect Jesus's Second Coming to happen ?
WHAT SECOND COMING? Speculating? Are you not into speculating? WHERE IS JESUS CHRIST TODAY? Why isn't He here reigning on earth with all of those hirelings of the former WCG? What's the hold up?
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 And saying, WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Anon, Sunday, February 9, 2025 at 2:59:25 AM PST, wrote:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt "John" as the 'tripe you've served cold' comment above is by far the worst I've ever read. Might be all the looking back at the 'Indy conference speech' memories that put your head in a spin and you forgot the gospel of Matthew's account of Jesus Christ's second coming, which every eye shall see. Jesus Christ is not returning quietly to only a few noticing. Isaiah 61, only verses 1-2 have been fulfilled. Jesus is really only getting started.
For if Jesus, showing the apostles his crucifixion scars before he'd been presented to the Father then why did all the apostles, including Paul expect Jesus's Second Coming to happen ? ****** Anon, you accuse me of serving tripe, while your remaining 3 fingers on your hand point back to you as possibly the one serving the cold tripe. How so?
Tripe 1, for one thing, you mentioned the phrase "Second Coming" twice. Who taught you that? You cannot even find that phrase anywhere in the Bible.
Biblically speaking, Jesus' second coming to earth was that 40-day period after He visited with His God, His Father, in Heaven...as was explained above in this thread: look up the verses provided to you!
When you don't agree with the words regarding that 40-day period, you will end up with believing in something I refer to as: a Mickey Mouse Millennium, which I guess could be considered as a belief in "tripe," and you are welcomed to believe that.
Tripe 2, another thing: you mentioned that I "...forgot the gospel of Matthew's account of Jesus Christ's second coming, which every eye shall see..."
I did not forget that Matthew account, but you will not find that phrase "second coming" anywhere in the gospel of Matthew. You have been deceived by some "tripe."
Now, every eye did not see Jesus during that 40 day period, approximately 10 days before Pentecost, and every eye will not see Him at His next coming either. Time will tell.
Oh, the 2 witnesses, after they are resurrected, will be seen to rise, but will every eye see Jesus, also? No!
Will some eyes see Him? How do we know? The Bible tells me/us so:
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Revelation 1:7
I assume that you had that verse (every eye will see Him) in mind, but that coming with clouds will be yet still future, and some time after Satan exits the pit to again mess up this world and its inhabitants.
Those soldiers who pierced Jesus, and those "kindreds of the earth" will not wail at the time those 2 witnesses rise to meet Jesus in some clouds, because they will still remain dead and awaiting a second resurrection. They will come alive at a later resurrection: the second resurrection (there is no 3rd resurrection, necessary: that was "tripe," if you will).
More tripe as you wrote: "Isaiah 61, only verses 1-2 have been fulfilled. Jesus is really only getting started."
Both verses will not have been fulfilled. Look at verse 2:
"To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
After Jesus read about that acceptable year of the LORD, He shut the book, because that portion of the verse and verse 1 applied to Him.
The last portion of that verse, dealing with " a day of vengeance of our God," did not apply to Jesus, but applies to Jesus' God, His Father, and that vengeance eventually will be fulfilled.
FWIIW, the wrath of the Lamb involves the 7 Trumps, while the wrath of God involves the 7 Vials to occur at a much later time. Is that really true?
Anon, Sunday, February 9, 2025 at 12:05:01 PM PST, wrote:
[[John writes:
WHAT SECOND COMING? Speculating? Are you not into speculating? WHERE IS JESUS CHRIST TODAY? Why isn't He here reigning on earth with all of those hirelings of the former WCG? What's the hold up?
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 And saying, WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Looks like we are in the last days.]] ****** God has a long-range plan that He is working out. Satan has deceived the entire world.
Some believe in the thought of Jesus "very soon" return to start some 1,000 year reign on earth, and not be any longer at His Father's right hand in Heaven. How many have thought such similar things over the approximately past 2,000 years since Jesus returned to His Father's right hand?
That's a lot of scoffers, and after Satan exits the pit, scoffers will still exist and be asking: WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING?
We are not in the last days. When Satan exits that pit, he will realize his time is short, and go out to mess up this world and its inhabitants again. Since Jesus still will not have returned to earth at that time Satan exits that pit some, hoping for a "better world tomorrow," will scoff again.
Why should you think "we are in the last days?"
How many scoffers will be in existence after Satan exits the pit? I don't know, but that sounds like it may be a good time for Jesus to return like a thief in the night, wouldn't it?
Many are seeking a second coming today, as if Jesus were not coming like a thief in the night, but...
'John' or whoever you are, tripe or not to tripe. You've got to look at Luke 4:18-20. He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath Day he went into the synagogue, as was his cudtom. He stood up to read, abd the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it was written: The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to proclaim goodness to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of dight fir the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor". Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them. "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing".
I believe Isaiah 61:1-2 has been fulfilled because Jesus said so himself.
Anon, Monday, February 10, 2025 at 7:11:13 AM PST, wrote:
'John' or whoever you are, tripe or not to tripe. You've got to look at Luke 4:18-20. He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath Day he went into the synagogue, as was his cudtom. He stood up to read, abd the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it was written: The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to proclaim goodness to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of dight fir the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor". Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them. "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing".
I believe Isaiah 61:1-2 has been fulfilled because Jesus said so himself. ****** Anon, I have no idea what Bible you are using, but you are misled, because the latter portion of Isaiah 61:2 has not been fulfilled by Jesus, but will be fulfilled by Jesus' Father, His God, some time after Satan exits the pit and the Vials are poured out.
In Luke 4 in verse 19, what were those last words that Jesus spoke?
"To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
Period, and yes those words and the earlier words of verse 18 were "fulfilled in your ears."
Now, let's look at Isaiah 61:2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
There is that "acceptable year of the LORD" that was fulfilled by Jesus, but what about the rest of that Isaiah 61:2 that was not fulfilled by Jesus:
"...and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
Isaiah 61:2 was not fulfilled by Jesus, because Jesus knew His Father would later dish out that vengeance.
And that is why Jesus did not quote all of Isaiah 61:2, because that portion on the end dealing with vengeance was later to be fulfilled by Someone other than Himself.
If the Bible you use does not mention the following, then I suggest you go back to the Bible that is in the Public Domain: the Authorized KJV; however, if you desire to continue to be misled by some author that changed what is in the Public Domain, and put a copywrite date on, then that's your choice, but a bottom line is that all of Isaiah 61:2 was not fulfilled by Jesus, and Jesus never said anything about fulfilling this part of the verse: "...and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
Jesus did not lie to us, and His Father does not lie either, unlike the character Jesus mentioned in John 8:44.
Tripe or not tripe: to change or not to change is your decision, but...
Nor do I lie, nasty to quote John 8:44 but I expect nothing less than nastiness. I belong to God and actually I am not of Satan but it is a reoccurring insult certain people like to throw around too easily, yet proclaim to want peace. But it is similar insult Jesus himself took from the religious leaders from the Temple.
We can agree that Jesus has fulfilled verse 1 of Isaiah 61. Nowhere can I find any Bible scholars who refute the 'Second coming' of Jesus. But we will have to agree to disagree on that.
Anon, Tuesday, February 11, 2025 at 12:03:31 AM PST, wrote:
"...We can agree that Jesus has fulfilled verse 1 of Isaiah 61. Nowhere can I find any Bible scholars who refute the 'Second coming' of Jesus. But we will have to agree to disagree on that." ****** Yes, Anon, we can agree that Jesus fulfilled verse 1 of Isaiah 61, and the first portion of verse 2, but not the part regarding vengeance.
There are "Bible scholars" who refute the 'Second coming' of Jesus, because they recognize Jesus came to earth a second time after His murder, resurrection, visiting His God, His Father, in heaven, and that He remained on earth for about 40 days before returning to heaven. He explained He would return again, and that next one would be a third coming.
So, perhaps most so-called Bible scholars seemingly turned a blind eye to that 40-day period, made up their own theory about Jesus' comings and currently look forward to a "second coming."
That sounds kind of stupid to think that, but it is permitted in a world currently under Satan's control, with the face of this whole earth currently still under a curse (Zech 5:3), which eventually will end (Revelation 22:3) beyond that short/little time/season after Satan exits the pit. Then, every eye shall see Him, and we may agree to disagree on that, but...
Anon, Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 6:29:31 AM PST, wrote:
Name them. Name the Bible scholars who refute the second coming of Jesus Christ as his Third Coming. ****** Anon, we all know the story of Christ and His life, and that murder at the end when He was killed. That was His first coming, right?
He came down from Heaven to earth and was made flesh. That was His first coming. We know that.
Well, did Jesus come down from Heaven again? And the answer is, “Yes!”
Proof that Jesus came to earth again a second time, a second coming, but only hung around for about 40 days. Proof?
John 20:16-23; Acts 1:3; I Cor 15:4-6.
You may look those verses up. Will you believe those verses, or make up your own theory?
Is there any better Bible scholar than God the Father? Anyone better than His Son, Jesus Christ, who was taught by His Father?
The verses cited above clearly explain some events that occurred in Jesus' life during His second coming, and in the lives of others, after God the Father sent His Son to earth again. That 40 day period was very important.
You don't believe that? I can't help you.
All the world is deceived, and we are all deceived: it's just a matter of degree, but Jesus' second coming is history. The Bible scholars you have in mind apparently don't believe those scriptures cited above. Fine, continue on in blindness.
Jesus knew His Father had sent Him to earth again: hence, Biblically-speaking, Jesus' second coming; however, that time He came in the form of a spirit being, and no more solely 100% flesh, blood and bone like Jesus' first coming.
"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." John 12:49
Neither Jesus or His Father have lied to us. Apparently, the world's Bible scholars are not believers of those verses cited above. They are deceived into believing in another Jesus who they expect to "very soon" return to reign on earth for 1,000 years...oh, and then fail at the end after Satan is loosed out of the pit. Do you want to be a part of that?
Jesus' third coming indicates the closest Jesus will get to earth is to be in the clouds, but nothing indicates He is coming down to earth. The Bride, the 144,000, will then follow the Lamb wherever He goes, and it will not be a return to earth at that time. Even the 2 witnesses are not even going to return to earth; they will follow that Lamb to go elsewhere. Common sense? If Jesus were coming to earth, then why wouldn't the 2 witnesses just remain on earth? Duh!
Please return to this blog "very soon" and start a new thread letting us all know that Jesus has returned to begin reigning 1,000 years on earth! Will you do that?
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:28.
You argue for arguing sake. Maybe it makes you feel superior to others, maybe you can't help it. Maybe you have a unique sense of humour. Maybe it's your life's aspirations to try and irritate others. Who knows. But God knows people's heart.
Zechariah 14:4-11 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two.
Anon, Thursday, February 13, 2025 at 6:58:14 AM PST, wrote:
You argue for arguing sake. Maybe it makes you feel superior to others, maybe you can't help it. Maybe you have a unique sense of humour. Maybe it's your life's aspirations to try and irritate others. Who knows. But God knows people's heart.
Zechariah 14:4-11 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two. ****** Anon, who is arguing? It's okay for people to disagree with what scriptures plainly say; their argument is with the One who inspired the scriptures, and time will tell.
Yes, God does know the heart (e.g. Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 8:7), and that heart will not change from that state unless/until God does something to overwhelm it by His Spirit to produce good fruits, as demonstrated in those who have been the workmanship of God's hands, and time will tell on that too.
Why bring up Zech 14:4-11? Do you know which day that verse is referring to? Whose feet will stand on that Mount of Olives, and when will it split? When will you written words be fulfilled: before Satan enters the pit, or after Satan exits the pit?
Are you hinting at a speculation that those verses are speaking about Jesus' feet at His third coming (which you believe is His 2nd coming) when He comes in the clouds, and does not touch down on earth, but returns to His Father's right hand with the 144,000 following Him wherever He goes?
Yes, there is no need to argue anything, because...
Anon, Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 11:46:19 PM PST, quoted a verse:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:28. ****** And yes, Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, but not for all! So, what about it? The statement is true.
And, "...and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation."
What about that portion of the verse? What's the point? The SECOND time?
Weren't the following verses mentioned earier in this thread?
John 20:16-23; Acts 1:3; I Cor 15:4-6
After Jesus' second coming from heaven to earth, those verses mention a whole bunch of people who had the opportunity to see Jesus for the SECOND time. I mean; after the Father had already received Jesus, after that crucifixion, and He came back! That was the second time He was here on earth.
And if any of those individuals arise in the first resurrection, they will have the opportunity to see Jesus for a THIRD time after He arrives in clouds. Don't expect Jesus' feet to land on earth, as the sealed Firstfruits will follow that Lamb back to heaven where they will be accepted by Jesus' God, His Father, their Father...similar to Jesus after His resurrection when He went to heaven to be accepted by His God, His Father.
Is there some consistency there. Is God doing things decently and in order? Yes, the many will be so grateful to the Father (I Cor 8:6), who by His power through His Son, saved the many, won't they?
John you are not letting the Bible interpret itself:
Heb 9:28a so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many,
Heb 9:28b WILL APPEAR [OPHTHESETAI] for a second time, apart from sin,
Heb 9:28c to those AWAITING [APEKDECHOMENOIS] Him for salvation.
“will appear” is future - future indicative passive - future from the time when the author of Hebrews penned his letter, years after Christ’s returned to heaven.
“awaiting” is a verb that expresses an eager looking for Jesus’ return.
Jn 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Lk 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. Lk 24:11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
After Jesus’ death His followers weren’t eagerly awaiting his appearance for salvation; they weren’t even awaiting his resurrection.
Ac 26:16 But rise up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you a servant and a witness both of that which you have seen of Me, and of the things in which I WILL APPEAR [ophthesomai] to you,(BLB).
Ac 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
“ophthesomai” is also future indicative passive.
The vision Paul experienced in 18:9 was future from his Damascus Road experience.
John in a previous post you wrote:
"I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient”.
A question then concerning these verses:
Mt 8:5a And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, Mt 8:5b there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, Mt 8:8a The centurion answered and said, Mt 8:8b Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. Mt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; Mt 8:13b And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Did Jesus and the centurion literally meet face to face and speak one to another?
Did Jesus and the centurion literally meet face to face and speak one to another?
The answer I received from 8:25 was Yes.
Unfortunately, the answer is wrong, it should have been NO.
That the answer is NO is derived from Luke’ account of the meeting.
The Scriptural comparison works better in a chart with color highlights:
Mt 8:5a And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, Lk 7:1b he [Jesus] entered into Capernaum.
Mt 8:5b there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, Lk 7:3b he [the centurion] sent unto him the ELDERS OF THE JEWS, beseeching him
Mt 8:8b Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. Lk 7:6c Lord ... I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof: Lk 7:7b but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed
Mt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; Lk 7:10a And they that WERE sent, returning to the house,
Mt 8:13b And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour. Lk 7:19b found the servant whole that had been sick.
Some observations:
In Matthew's account the centurion speaks with Jesus himself, while in Luke's account he speaks with Jesus through his agents.
The elders of the Jews carry a message to Jesus in the centurion’s own words (vv.6b-8).
Matthew relates the words of the centurion to Jesus as though he had been there in person.
In Luke’ account the centurion never has direct contact or conversation with Jesus.
The above accounts highlight the “principle of agency” that was in vogue in the times of the Biblical writers.
Put simply the concept is that “what a man does through his agents he may be said to do himself”.
Based on this principle, Matthew writes from the “Principal” perspective and Luke from the “Agency” perspective.
Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Ps 110:1 is written from the Principal perspective - what the LORD does through his Agent he may be said to do himself.
God is going to use his Agent to put the Agent’s enemies under his feet. That is, the ‘Lord Jesus’ will put his own enemies under his feet.
(Jesus won’t be much longer at God’s right hand in heaven).
Paul brings out the “agency” perspective:
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP the kingdom to God, even the Father; when HE SHALL HAVE PUT DOWN all rule and all authority and power. 1Co 15:25 For HE MUST REIGN, till HE HATH PUT all enemies under his feet. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
"We begin by noting that Christ is the grammatical subject of all the verbs in vv. 24-26... what in the psalm is the activity of God is now read by Paul as the activity of the PRESENTLY REIGNING Christ... Moreover, the "citation" of Ps 110:1 in v.25 is yet another place where, FOR PAUL, CHRIST HAS ASSUMED THE ROLE THAT GOD PLAYS IN THE PSALM ITSELF. By changing from first person, where Yahweh is speaking, to the third person, to conform to Paul's use of the psalm, he thus attributed to Christ the role of "putting the enemies under his (own) feet" " (Gordon D. Fee, Pauline Christology, pp.109 & 111).
David provides the type, for the greater David:
1Ki 5:3 ... because of the wars waged against ... David from all sides, he could not build a temple for the Name of the LORD his God UNTIL THE LORD PUT HIS ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET.
The LORD put David’s enemies under David’s feet by his agent David - what God does through His agent he may be said to do Himself.
2 Sa 7:9 I HAVE been with you wherever you went, destroying all your enemies before you. I HAVE made your fame as great as that if the greatest of the land. 2 Sa 7:10a I HAVE established a place for my people Israel and I HAVE planted them so that the might dwell where they are, disturbed no more. (A.A. Anderson, WBC, p.121).
Once again it may be seen that what the LORD did through His agent David He may be said to do himself.
I can concoct a Luke 7 Matthew 8 centurion (C) complementary scenario.......C sent Jewish elders to ask Jesus to come and heal because he's a Roman and not Jewish .....the elders go back and tell C Jesus is coming......C goes and meets Jesus some distance from his house......Jesus tells him He will heal him but because of the crowd following Jesus Mr C goes back home to wait for Jesus' arrival.....realizes Jesus doesn't deserve to come under his roof because of some guilt?.....C sends friends to tell Jesus........the friends go back and find the sick person "whole".......
Anon, Friday, February 14, 2025 at 2:32:13 AM PST, wrote:
"...John in a previous post you wrote:
"I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient”.
A question then concerning these verses:
Mt 8:5a And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, Mt 8:5b there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, Mt 8:8a The centurion answered and said, Mt 8:8b Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. Mt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; Mt 8:13b And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Did Jesus and the centurion literally meet face to face and speak one to another? ****** First of all, you have claimed that I wrote the following:
"I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient”.
Well, to my knowledge, that is not true. You must have someone else in mind, because I would not say or write something like that.
If you believe I wrote that in some previous post, please provide me the title of the thread and give me the date and time I wrote it. I'll check it out, and if what you wrote is true, then I will apologize to you. I may agree to some extent with those words, but I did not write it.
Secondly, regarding Matthew 8/Luke 7, you asked: "...Did Jesus and the centurion literally meet face to face and speak one to another?..."
And my answer is: "Yes, Jesus said so."
You know that everything Jesus spoke was in parables, so that most would not understand what He was saying, unless/until it was the Father's will, the will of Jesus' God, His Father, to allow the understanding to be revealed to others.
And also, Jesus said of Himself He could do nothing: "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28
The Father was always in charge. Jesus was learning from His Father, as the Father so inspired by the power of His Spirit.
In Matthew, just before Jesus encounter with the Centurion, God inspired a leper to be healed after Jesus touched the man. Some time after that event, a Centurion, face to face, is speaking to Jesus:
Matthew 8:5 "And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him."
Now, how can you deny that?
Only by coming up with some satanic, man-made, theory by perhaps using types, anti-types, some thinking about activity, agency...!
So, my answer to your question is: "Yes." In Luke 7 you also see that Jesus had a face to face with a certain Centurion:
"When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Luke 7:9
Jesus marvelled at him, the Centurion, who had just face to face spoken to Jesus, and then Jesus turned around to give a message to others present.
How far away did that Centurion's sickly servant live from where Jesus was in Capernaum? We don't know, but Jesus was willing to travel to that servant to touch him, like Jesus did with the leper; however, God the Father inspired Jesus to realize that it was not necessary for Jesus to touch him...that God the Father would do it remotely with Jesus just saying so. Jesus, like us, was a learner, and He was the workmanship of His Father's hands (Eph 2:10; Acts 15:18; Heb 4:3).
Anyway, again, my answer to your question is: "Yes," and if you don't believe that:
Time will tell...
John
P.S. Anon, Sunday, February 16, 2025 at 9:07:14 AM PST, gave you an interesting concoction.
First of all, you have claimed that I wrote the following:
"I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient”.
Well, to my knowledge, that is not true. You must have someone else in mind, because I would not say or write something like that.
If you believe I wrote that in some previous post, please provide me the title of the thread and give me the date and time I wrote it. I'll check it out, and if what you wrote is true, then I will apologize to you. I may agree to some extent with those words, but I did not write it.
*******
John you did write this. Please refer to your comment on March 18, 2022, 3:51:30 on the blog entitled: “"UCG Council of Elders Refuse To Reconfirm Vic Kubik For A Fourth Term" March 5, 2022).
The principle of agency is not satanic it was an accepted convention of the Day.
Jn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jn 3:34a For he whom God hath sent [apostello] speaketh the words of God:
“At significant length, Jesus is shown to be the Father’s commissioned “agent” one “sent” by him (e.g. Jn 3:17, 34; 5:23-24, 30, 36-38). Scholars often compare the Jewish institution of the saliah (an “agent”); beyond this comparison, the agency principle that the saliah embodies was pervasive in the ancient Mediterranean world...” (C. S. Keener, “The Gospel of John,” Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, p.429).
Jn 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. Jn 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
“The principle that what is done to, or for, a person’s agent or emissary is actually done to, or for, the person who sent him appears frequently in the Gospel tradition (see for example, Mt 10:40; Mk 9:37; Lk 9:48; 10:16), but just once so far (negatively) in John’s Gospel (“Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent me,” 5:23). Here Jesus states it for the first time positively, adding for good measure, “the person who sees me sees the One who sent me” (v. 45). In the following chapters, he will make this principle of agency explicit to his disciples, telling them that “the person who receives me receives the One who sent me” (13:20), “the person who has hates me also hates my Father” (15:23)” (J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.714).
Jn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
“His reply, “The person who has seen me has seen the Father,” is simply a corollary of the principle of agency that he has already presented, first to the reader (12:44-45) and then to his disciples at the meal (13:20)” (J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.777).
Anon, Monday, February 17, 2025 at 2:15:17 PM PST, wrote:
"...John you did write this. Please refer to your comment on March 18, 2022, 3:51:30 on the blog entitled: “"UCG Council of Elders Refuse To Reconfirm Vic Kubik For A Fourth Term" March 5, 2022)..." ****** Okay, Anon, I must admit I did write those words almost 3 years ago, and I still agree with them, but I would also like to view the context of those words I wrote. So, yes, I will apologize to you, because I forgot that I had written those words almost 3 years ago. I didn't recall them, but I checked out the reference source you provided to make sure it wasn't another "John," who also writes on this blogsite. But, I will provide that context of those words contained in [[double brackets]] at this point:
[[Anon,
Are you telling me that I cannot believe the writers of Acts 1:3 and I Corinthians 15:3-8, which are so easily understandable and explainable without any further explanation? Are you telling me that those writers, eye/ear-witnesses are liars, and that I need to go to the interpretations of writers of Satan's world to find the truth?
If you are so interested in the Bible's interpretations, e.g. Hebrews, then why are you looking to other's interpretations to explain Hebrews?
I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient. The difficulty comes with people believing what they read.
Hundreds of eye/ear-witnesses know, and know that they know, that Jesus Christ returned to this earth a second time, but in a different form. They all will live again. Will you tell them eye/ear witnesses that they were deceived? That that second coming they experienced was some sort of a sham, a charade? Are you going to tell them that they needed Paul's words in Hebrews with lots of interpretations by a bunch of other non-eye/ear-witnesses?
If God wasn't smart enough to preserve for us the words, even words relative to Christ's comings, in the Bible, then shame on Him, but God isn't a dummy. And He isn't all that helpless.
You appear to be more interested in the opinions, the thoughts, the interpretations of others than you are in the Bible. You appear to be very comfortable with the interpretations of the likes of men such as: Craddock, Morris and Bruce...and you are welcome to all of that, especially since you apparently believe you need their assistance.
Obviously, they don't impress me, and I intend to stick with the eye-witnesses God already us with in what was written regarding Jesus' "second coming" to earth after His resurrection as recorded in Acts 1:3 and I Corinthians 15:3-8.
So, was the information provided about Jesus Christ's second coming to earth, as clearly spelled out in Acts 1:3 and I Corinthians 15:3-8 part of God's truth to us, sufficient for us? Or did God lie to us such that non-eyewitness human interpreters were needed to provide us with some other theory to explain God's truths?
Okay, now that that apology is out of the way. Continuing in your post, you consistently refer to the opinions and reference sources of other "Biblical scholars" for their interpretations to support your personal beliefs: something I rarely do.
You like Bible interpretations of others, something I rarely go to. For example, in this post you quoted from the following reference sources:
(C. S. Keener, “The Gospel of John,” Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, p.429) (J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.714) (J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.777)
And you are welcome to do that.
I like to think God inspired what He wanted in the Bible, without the need for interpretations, thoughts, opinions of others, although we have to admit Satan's translators have messed around with changing the meaning of many of the words that God had provided, so that he, Satan, can keep up his counterfeits in God’s Plan of Salvation to save all humanity, subsequent destruction of Satan and his angels/devils, Sabbath, annual Holydays, doctrines, gospel, “second coming,” identity of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, whether Jesus Christ had some face to face with a certain Centurian or not, etc. to keep people in blindness to one degree or another, etc. God has allowed that for His purposes.
So, as you consistently like to cite the opinions/interpretations of others, even if they intentionally or unintentionally lead one astray, while I can consistently still say: "I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient. The difficulty comes with people believing what they read." People don’t believe what they read and seek out the opinions, thoughts, interpretations of others, and believe those reference sources, even though they disagree with what was simply read out of the Bible.
For example, in another post above I and another individual, both based upon reading the Bible, concluded that the Centurion had a face to face with Jesus Christ.
Based upon the thoughts/interpretations/opinions of others, it was concluded that the Centurion did not have a face to face with Jesus Christ. What is the truth? I prefer to believe the Bible without outside influences, especially when those reference sources conclude something opposite from what is plainly written. Still you are welcome to believe whatever you desire.
I believe the Bible without the interpretations, and opinions, thoughts of other reference sources. It's much less confusing to me. And if we agree to disagree, so what? What difference will it make to one’s salvation? We all can’t be right all of the time, but…
53 comments:
Young people get a raw deal off many a leader in these modern times.
I recall a Church Camp Director waltzing upto me on Day of Atonement once, years ago and launching into complaining about a young female. When I categorically refused to be involved he then turned on me.
It was appalling to me as I knew the young female would have considered the camp leaders her friends and mentors.
But of course let's point all fingers at Dave Pack.
What a POS
If there is one sure thing that I am certain about, is that Pack will not be part of the 144,000.
To interpret this: Mr. Pack's two videos on the "short kingdom" before the millennium indicate some people only have a little of the Holy Spirit and are "not fully qualified for eternal life."
They're "incomplete" saints, as opposed to "complete" one, he says. He indicates the incomplete ones are the "lukewarm" Laodicians of Revelation 3.
He gives no Biblical evidence for that - while Matthew 24:13 indicates ANYONE who endures to the end will be saved.
Not half-saved. Not advancing to a "last-chance qualifying" round like in NASCAR. They're saved!
Many in the ACOGs claim that they don't teach salvation by works. They say that salvation is a free gift, but your "reward" in the Kingdom is determined by your works.
Dave here proves that to be a lie. He is plainly teaching salvation by works.
And I think he has it backwards. He thinks that the young people aren't yet "good enough" to be saved. In fact, it's often the newly baptized who are the most full of zeal and innocence, who haven't yet grown complacent upon seeing how the church rewards hypocrisy and unchristian conduct in those who seek to "get ahead" in the church.
Make sure you are part of the 144,000! Just send in ALL OF YOUR MONEY, plus two box tops and you will receive your "secret membership card", and your "Dave Pack decoder ring"!
I think Dave is teaching that since time is so short, young people will not have the time to deeply mature and hence qualify for a high position in the kingdom. Common sense is that this will eventually apply to some group. There's no injustice here since they did not experience tribulation over an extended period of time.
But what Dave and other ministers keep getting wrong is the timing. I heard something similar from the pulpit in the mid 1980s, and even earlier in church publications.
There is no such thing as a member of the RCG! These are most definitely not members in the way church membership has been traditionally defined and understood. They are Dave's codependents!
BB
Amen, bro, and pass the ammunition.
Soooo.....we're not to become as little children?
It all comes down to money.
Young people have none so Pack is pissed off that most of the bums on the seats are not in the position to 'buy' their spot in Daves/Gods kingdom.
He's just being a nasty spitful turd.
In a sense Dave is running another mystery religion, because he knows he says BS but the fools in the seats take it seriously.
"The last shall be first," Someone once said...
Certain men: Dave Pack (like some leader of the pack"), and Franks, and Weston, and Flurry, and Winnail, and Weinland, and Shabi, etc., hirelings of the former WCG, all think they are, and have, qualified by their works and want everybody else to be "like me:" like them, and "make it" like they think they have qualified/“made it” into the "very soon" Mickey Mouse "Club" (MM Millennium) to reign with Jesus Christ on this Earth, instead of being at the Father's right hand for a while, like Jesus did. Like who? Their "hero."
That “qualifying by their works of SELF,” could be called Fear Religion, "follow me or fail," which is about the only thing they seem to understand in this world that is run by another father (John 8:44; James 4:5; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
That thought is not all that different from those certain men (Acts 15), inspired by the god of this present evil world, striving to convince those of God’s Church that circumcision was needful to be qualified: circumcised to be saved.
But young people, young men and young women, not being part of the 144,000? How does Dave Pack know that?
Wouldn't it be better to be part of the young people: little children even, who know The God, The Father, that God of the Old Testament (Acts 3:13 “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus;…”)?
"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father." 1 John 2:13
Which father? Jesus knew, while this world was deceived and under cover of darkness, who His God, His Father, was.
John 17:25 "O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me."
As an aside, currently, Donald Trump is seemingly pulling the lambskins off of the "wolves" and exposing them and their evils perpetrated by the "god of this world” through human beings that have been causing evils for a long time? Anything new under the sun?
Once upon a time all of the hirelings of the former WCG thought it was part of one Church where one leader was in charge. What happened? They no longer believe that, and they can’t figure out who is qualified to be in charge. So, they picked up their “bat and ball” and fled (John 10:12-13), leaving their ministerial credentials behind in Pasadena to start-up their own scattered man-made organizations, groups, Ass(s), etc., and then put themSELVES in charge. Is that confusion or what? Lambskins?
Dave Pack is obviously being exposed: like that emperor running around with his mouth spewing out evil thoughts, but he’s naked and doesn’t know it. Are the rest of the hirelings following “the Pack?” Time is telling.
When will Dave Pack, along with the other hirelings of the former wcg, realize that they no longer have their lambskins covering them anymore, and they are being exposed for who they may be, and it’s not “of God,” but just may be “of god?”
Time will tell...
John
Dave Pack could be tapping into the undocumented thought, that prevails amongst a fair few silent generation and baby boomers, from across the COG groups, that only "Baby Boomers" are converted and called and not Generation X or Millenniums. That somehow God decided that the 'Baby Boomers' would be the last generation he called.
Probably true, what you are saying about their line of thought, 5:18. But, the funny thing is that back around 1975, before God passed on validating HWA, the big question was whether baby boomers would be instantly changed when Christ returned, or would we prefer to live out our physical lives being married and raising our families in the Millennium. The kids that got baptized in their senior year in high school were looked to kind of as spokespersons for the generation, and there were varying opinions. I personally felt that it was useless to speculate, because as with so many other things taught in the church we weren't going to get a vote.
Obviously God is also failing to validate people like Dave Pack (can't get a single "sure shot" prophecy right), or the invisible Bob Thiel, Gerald "the Dance King" Flurry, Ron the tax cheat Weinland, first century "Islamic Christian" Wade Cox, or any of the shrinking alphabet ACOGs, so the young people of today need not worry about this issue.
I find it totally weird that people would still be speculating about such a thing. Looks like some people are still banking on false prophets somehow turning out as being correct. They learned absolutely nothing from 1975!
Young adults, newly baptised or not yet baptised, would do well to leave RCG and find another church.
Actually, every person in RCG other than Dave Pack, would do well to leave!
Speculating is a natural human trait. Another possibility is that God will stop offering the holy spirit (water baptism only) shortly before His second coming. We don't know.
I remember the time when Pasedena as in 'WCG Pasedena' was referred to as 'Satan's Lair".
You present the erronous image that before Herbert Armstrongs heart attack and age caught up with him, that the "hirelings" all fell in line and it was a utopia of agreement under the force of Herbert's leadership. That is not the case as fractions of all kinds had always existed in WCG.
I remember a 'fraction' that perceived Loma as being a believer in Jesus Christ and a Sabbath keeper but not Herbert. That he was in it for the money. This 'fraction' has died out over the years.
Dave Pack as a young man and new minister got involved in a RCG/WCG exorcism programme and who knows what road that led him down. It may, or may not account for his exceptional foolishness in date setting and extreme oddness.
Anon, Friday, February 7, 2025 at 11:39:43 PM PST, wrote:
"...You present the erronous image that before Herbert Armstrongs heart attack and age caught up with him, that the "hirelings" all fell in line and it was a utopia of agreement under the force of Herbert's leadership. That is not the case as fractions of all kinds had always existed in WCG.
******
Anon,
How could you have concluded that I presented such an "erronous image...that the "hirelings" all fell in line and it was a utopia of agreement under the force of Herbert's leadership" before Herbert W. Armstrong's heart attack? I didn't even mention his name.
I have never said that the hirelings "fell in line."
What does Revelation 2-3 tell us? God's Church throughout the eras would be impacted, in different ways, by Satan. So, expect confusion to exist somehow within God's Church over the past approximately 2,000 years.
Think about Ambassador College (AC). Most of those who graduated did not share what they learned from AC, but instead shared a lot of their own ideas, theories, their fear religion, other stuff that was in their heads, etc.
At one time HWA mentioned that many were into Protestantism, and HWA was speaking about the ministry, so he knew they weren't falling into line as if in some utopia under his power and control...”his force.”
Again, the words of Revelation 2-3 are true. And 2 Cor 11:13-15; John 8:44, 2 Tim 2:26, Eph 6:12, etc. are also true.
How did Satan impact God’s Church?
Re 2:9 “I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Re 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Re 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Re 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.”
To be continued…
John
Oh only if the ACOGs and the rest of the "Pack" would humble themselves as a little children.
Matthew 18:3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Why do they continue to slight the young people in their splinter organizations? They did it in the past, and still do it today.
Tank
Continuing…
Now, how much concern was there about factions after the death of HWA, and at the time of the establishment of one of those man-made, probably Satan-inspired, factions: the United Ass. I have often brought up that factions have existed: there was no hireling (s) “fall in line” utopian agreement under some “force” of HWA.
[[CAN IT EVER BE? That cohesive, Christ-led entity that we all want so dearly? Or does Indy seal our fate to factions and factions? The hopes are high, the stakes are critical. Indy will be either a dawning of a New World Tomorrow, or the proof of our folly.
PIE IN THE SKY is what the detractors say. Some of them are us, you know. Our “leaders” have already laid foundations and are even laying superstructure. The meek words of just a few weeks ago… “We’ve just started this in case it’s of any help, but we’ll gladly dissolve it” are seemingly replaced with corporate structure lauding the wisdom of “follow me.” Has “unity” already slipped to a cliché, a buzzword of egotists? I’ve seen that once people invest time, money and gain supporters they “have God’s blessing.” After all, they prayed about it.
Dissolution of their structure for a greater cause becomes too great a defeat. The show must go on.
WHAT IS INDY? It’s a chance for a ground up, New Testament organized body of believers.
WHAT WILL INDY BE? I know what you and I want it to be. But do you know what many see it as? Separate leaders of several pre-formed groups pushing their system at each other, followed by the winner selling it to the ministry. The ministry is invited to view the outcome and cast in their lot, depending on who "wins" and if they like the smell of it.
WHO LOOSES IF INDY FALTERS? The churches back home. The little flocks who are staking their faith in Indy. The loyal pastors who have forfeited everything to wait on Christ and to come learn his will for their next step. I hope He’s there. He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
Just some concerns and fears…I don’t know what it WILL be, I know what it MIGHT be and what it CAN be. I’ll be there in support. Be careful who gets control. Make sure it’s God.]]
Shown between the [[brackets]] is a memo sent to Victor Kubik by a minister regarding our hopes for Indianapolis. It was read by Vic Kubik on May 2, 1995, the last day of the Indianapolis Conference, to all attending (included about 150 “elders,” mates, “etc.). That was 9 years after the death of HWA there was concern about factions and fractions, and we have a history of that ever since.
And guess what?
I agree with your writing "...fractions of all kinds had always existed in WCG..."
In fact, if truth be known, factions and fractions existed before HWA's heart attack...and probably throughout his entire ministry.
Anything new under the sun in this area?
Time will tell...
John
Anon, Friday, February 7, 2025 at 10:35:18 PM PST, wrote:
Speculating is a natural human trait. Another possibility is that God will stop offering the holy spirit (water baptism only) shortly before His second coming. We don't know.
******
What second coming? Speculating? Are you not into speculating? Where is Jesus Christ today? Why isn't He here reigning on earth with all of those hirelings of the former WCG? What's the hold up?
"...God will stop offering the holy spirit (water baptism only) shortly before His second coming?"
Where's the proof? Well, you admitted: "We don't know."
We all know the story of Christ and His life, and that murder at the end when He was killed. That was His first coming, right?
He came down from Heaven to earth and was made flesh. That was His first coming. We know that.
Well, did Jesus come down from Heaven again? And the answer is, “Yes!”
Proof that Jesus came to earth again a second time, a second coming, but only hung around for about 40 days. Proof?
John 20:16-23; Acts 1:3; I Cor 15:4-6.
You may look those verses up; we have the same Book.
Water baptism was "in" via John the Baptist near the completion of Jesus' first coming. Jesus again returned to earth for 40 days: His second coming. About 10 days later, after Jesus again returned to His Father's right hand, was Pentecost, God continued to add members to God's Church, and baptism was still "in," as it still is to this day.
Has God finished the building of the Bride: His Church? Are members still being added today? Will God stop granting/giving His Spirit before Jesus' third coming?
Will God stop offering His Spirit shortly before Jesus' third coming? Will that Bride have been completed by then?
Here's a possible hint: speculation, if you will.
Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it]."
In any event, Biblically-speaking the second coming has already occurred and/but time will tell...
John
The factor which caused the supposed "unity" in the WCG was the fear of HWA's explosive temper. Any subservients who held differences of opinion would capitulate, or run the risk of him going nuclear on them. The cost of that type of unity just in terms of damage to each individual's conscience and character was exhorbitant.
Years ago, I read materials written by Dr. Charles Stanley, some of which concerned the leadership style used in his church. There was prayer and discussion until consensus was reached, as opposed to one man, authoritarian rule. The part which impressed me about that was that the very process bypassed all the foibles of one man, unchecked rule. I'm not implying that Dr. Stanley became my new guru, or anything of the kind. I had sworn off the very concept of a guru after one miserable example. But he certainly presented some higher ground alternatives to many of the things we all heard from HWA. The Christian leadership model that Dr. Stanley taught appeared to be authentically in line with the fruits exuded by Jesus and his disciples/apostles.
Of course, none of us would have even looked in that direction back in the day, because HWA's own perverse leadership style mandated that we single-source all knowledge of the spiritual to him, the only human in whom God had centered His government and authority. HWA blinded us to the sincerity of outsiders by labeling them as "sincerely deceived". Some, he said, actually knew better than what they taught.
Unity and iron-clad rule are two completely different things. In order to be authentic, and a deeply embedded part of one's character, unity must be voluntary.
BB
......"the second time".....Heb 9:28 has not occurred yet. Maybe on Pentecost in this 6001st year (speculating, of course!). Meanwhile question: did Thomas see Jesus through 40 days.....John 20:24-29?
Years ago, on one of the old forums which was actually password protected, a lady who assumed that what she shared was confidential and protected wrote about some of the abuses her father was enduring as a member of Flurry's group (another extreme ACOG). Somehow, one of Flurry's lackies was under cover on the forum, and was able to correlate the shared details with the correct member, and immediately went to the man's home and disfellowshipped him! The father then joined up with UCG. It was the one case I've ever seen discussed on any of the Armstrongism-recovery sites where all the participants were happy that someone had become a member of an ACOG. Joining UCG was not a total solution, but at least the man was no longer required to shun his daughter, and could get proper medical attention for some age-related illnesses that he was experiencing.
I don't understand the level of hold the more extreme and demanding ACOG leaders have over their members. I would have to guess that these members are more or less in the dark regarding some of the insider-information from some of the other ACOGs that is well known and frequently shared here. Then again, there will always be ascetic, obsessive/compulsive types who believe that the more demanding their beliefs are, the more authentic their splinter is.
And, to think that we all once laughed about Jesuits who practiced self-flagellation, or other believers who would crawl up the rock or concrete stairs to their temple on bloody knees! The things that people do to themselves at the behest of extreme mentors!
Dave Pack always reminded me of the Neidermeyer character in Animal House.
BB
Bob Dylan?
Can I just check?
We all know the world is not about to end and there is no 144,000 right?
The big problem with the old Armstrong timeline was that you really had to manipulate facts and fan non-existent flames to make it appear believable that the end was anywhere close on rhe horizon. Starting in 2017, trends which have nothing to do with Armstrongism or any 144,000 began to emerge, and to build towards imminent climax. Now, one needs to deny and suppress these trends to make it appear as if the end is not forthcoming. It doesn't matter which political party is in power. We're in bigtime trouble. Multiple existential threats are on runaway nuclear meltdown pattern, and our guy is feeding the meltdown. Leading up to that, the guy before him was not all there for his last two years. Buckle up!
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt "John" as the 'tripe you've served cold' comment above is by far the worst I've ever read.
Might be all the looking back at the 'Indy conference speech' memories that put your head in a spin and you forgot the gospel of Matthew's account of Jesus Christ's second coming, which every eye shall see. Jesus Christ is not returning quietly to only a few noticing. Isaiah 61, only verses 1-2 have been fulfilled. Jesus is really only getting started.
For if Jesus, showing the apostles his crucifixion scars before he'd been presented to the Father then why did all the apostles, including Paul expect Jesus's Second Coming to happen ?
John writes:
WHAT SECOND COMING? Speculating? Are you not into speculating? WHERE IS JESUS CHRIST TODAY? Why isn't He here reigning on earth with all of those hirelings of the former WCG? What's the hold up?
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Looks like we are in the last days.
Anon, Sunday, February 9, 2025 at 2:59:25 AM PST, wrote:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt "John" as the 'tripe you've served cold' comment above is by far the worst I've ever read.
Might be all the looking back at the 'Indy conference speech' memories that put your head in a spin and you forgot the gospel of Matthew's account of Jesus Christ's second coming, which every eye shall see. Jesus Christ is not returning quietly to only a few noticing. Isaiah 61, only verses 1-2 have been fulfilled. Jesus is really only getting started.
For if Jesus, showing the apostles his crucifixion scars before he'd been presented to the Father then why did all the apostles, including Paul expect Jesus's Second Coming to happen ?
******
Anon, you accuse me of serving tripe, while your remaining 3 fingers on your hand point back to you as possibly the one serving the cold tripe. How so?
Tripe 1, for one thing, you mentioned the phrase "Second Coming" twice. Who taught you that? You cannot even find that phrase anywhere in the Bible.
Biblically speaking, Jesus' second coming to earth was that 40-day period after He visited with His God, His Father, in Heaven...as was explained above in this thread: look up the verses provided to you!
When you don't agree with the words regarding that 40-day period, you will end up with believing in something I refer to as: a Mickey Mouse Millennium, which I guess could be considered as a belief in "tripe," and you are welcomed to believe that.
Tripe 2, another thing: you mentioned that I "...forgot the gospel of Matthew's account of Jesus Christ's second coming, which every eye shall see..."
I did not forget that Matthew account, but you will not find that phrase "second coming" anywhere in the gospel of Matthew. You have been deceived by some "tripe."
Now, every eye did not see Jesus during that 40 day period, approximately 10 days before Pentecost, and every eye will not see Him at His next coming either. Time will tell.
Oh, the 2 witnesses, after they are resurrected, will be seen to rise, but will every eye see Jesus, also? No!
Will some eyes see Him? How do we know? The Bible tells me/us so:
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Revelation 1:7
I assume that you had that verse (every eye will see Him) in mind, but that coming with clouds will be yet still future, and some time after Satan exits the pit to again mess up this world and its inhabitants.
Those soldiers who pierced Jesus, and those "kindreds of the earth" will not wail at the time those 2 witnesses rise to meet Jesus in some clouds, because they will still remain dead and awaiting a second resurrection. They will come alive at a later resurrection: the second resurrection (there is no 3rd resurrection, necessary: that was "tripe," if you will).
More tripe as you wrote: "Isaiah 61, only verses 1-2 have been fulfilled. Jesus is really only getting started."
Both verses will not have been fulfilled. Look at verse 2:
"To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
After Jesus read about that acceptable year of the LORD, He shut the book, because that portion of the verse and verse 1 applied to Him.
The last portion of that verse, dealing with " a day of vengeance of our God," did not apply to Jesus, but applies to Jesus' God, His Father, and that vengeance eventually will be fulfilled.
FWIIW, the wrath of the Lamb involves the 7 Trumps, while the wrath of God involves the 7 Vials to occur at a much later time. Is that really true?
Time will tell...
John
Anon Saturday, February 8, 2025 at 12:01:39 PM PST, asked:
"Can I just check?
We all know the world is not about to end and there is no 144,000 right?"
******
The world is not about to end? True.
There is no 144,000 right? True, so far, but eventually there will be 144,000, because God can't lie.
Time will tell...
John
Anon, Sunday, February 9, 2025 at 12:05:01 PM PST, wrote:
[[John writes:
WHAT SECOND COMING? Speculating? Are you not into speculating? WHERE IS JESUS CHRIST TODAY? Why isn't He here reigning on earth with all of those hirelings of the former WCG? What's the hold up?
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Looks like we are in the last days.]]
******
God has a long-range plan that He is working out. Satan has deceived the entire world.
Some believe in the thought of Jesus "very soon" return to start some 1,000 year reign on earth, and not be any longer at His Father's right hand in Heaven. How many have thought such similar things over the approximately past 2,000 years since Jesus returned to His Father's right hand?
That's a lot of scoffers, and after Satan exits the pit, scoffers will still exist and be asking: WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING?
We are not in the last days. When Satan exits that pit, he will realize his time is short, and go out to mess up this world and its inhabitants again. Since Jesus still will not have returned to earth at that time Satan exits that pit some, hoping for a "better world tomorrow," will scoff again.
Why should you think "we are in the last days?"
How many scoffers will be in existence after Satan exits the pit? I don't know, but that sounds like it may be a good time for Jesus to return like a thief in the night, wouldn't it?
Many are seeking a second coming today, as if Jesus were not coming like a thief in the night, but...
Time will tell...
John
'John' or whoever you are, tripe or not to tripe. You've got to look at Luke 4:18-20.
He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath Day he went into the synagogue, as was his cudtom. He stood up to read, abd the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it was written:
The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to proclaim goodness to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of dight fir the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor".
Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them. "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing".
I believe Isaiah 61:1-2 has been fulfilled because Jesus said so himself.
Dave seems to be experiencing a total disconnect with God.
Anon, Monday, February 10, 2025 at 7:11:13 AM PST, wrote:
'John' or whoever you are, tripe or not to tripe. You've got to look at Luke 4:18-20.
He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath Day he went into the synagogue, as was his cudtom. He stood up to read, abd the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it was written:
The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to proclaim goodness to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of dight fir the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor".
Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them. "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing".
I believe Isaiah 61:1-2 has been fulfilled because Jesus said so himself.
******
Anon, I have no idea what Bible you are using, but you are misled, because the latter portion of Isaiah 61:2 has not been fulfilled by Jesus, but will be fulfilled by Jesus' Father, His God, some time after Satan exits the pit and the Vials are poured out.
In Luke 4 in verse 19, what were those last words that Jesus spoke?
"To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
Period, and yes those words and the earlier words of verse 18 were "fulfilled in your ears."
Now, let's look at Isaiah 61:2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
There is that "acceptable year of the LORD" that was fulfilled by Jesus, but what about the rest of that Isaiah 61:2 that was not fulfilled by Jesus:
"...and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
Isaiah 61:2 was not fulfilled by Jesus, because Jesus knew His Father would later dish out that vengeance.
And that is why Jesus did not quote all of Isaiah 61:2, because that portion on the end dealing with vengeance was later to be fulfilled by Someone other than Himself.
If the Bible you use does not mention the following, then I suggest you go back to the Bible that is in the Public Domain: the Authorized KJV; however, if you desire to continue to be misled by some author that changed what is in the Public Domain, and put a copywrite date on, then that's your choice, but a bottom line is that all of Isaiah 61:2 was not fulfilled by Jesus, and Jesus never said anything about fulfilling this part of the verse: "...and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
Jesus did not lie to us, and His Father does not lie either, unlike the character Jesus mentioned in John 8:44.
Tripe or not tripe: to change or not to change is your decision, but...
Time will tell...
John
Nor do I lie, nasty to quote John 8:44 but I expect nothing less than nastiness.
I belong to God and actually I am not of Satan but it is a reoccurring insult certain people like to throw around too easily, yet proclaim to want peace. But it is similar insult Jesus himself took from the religious leaders from the Temple.
We can agree that Jesus has fulfilled verse 1 of Isaiah 61. Nowhere can I find any Bible scholars who refute the 'Second coming' of Jesus. But we will have to agree to disagree on that.
Anon, Tuesday, February 11, 2025 at 12:03:31 AM PST, wrote:
"...We can agree that Jesus has fulfilled verse 1 of Isaiah 61. Nowhere can I find any Bible scholars who refute the 'Second coming' of Jesus. But we will have to agree to disagree on that."
******
Yes, Anon, we can agree that Jesus fulfilled verse 1 of Isaiah 61, and the first portion of verse 2, but not the part regarding vengeance.
There are "Bible scholars" who refute the 'Second coming' of Jesus, because they recognize Jesus came to earth a second time after His murder, resurrection, visiting His God, His Father, in heaven, and that He remained on earth for about 40 days before returning to heaven. He explained He would return again, and that next one would be a third coming.
So, perhaps most so-called Bible scholars seemingly turned a blind eye to that 40-day period, made up their own theory about Jesus' comings and currently look forward to a "second coming."
That sounds kind of stupid to think that, but it is permitted in a world currently under Satan's control, with the face of this whole earth currently still under a curse (Zech 5:3), which eventually will end (Revelation 22:3) beyond that short/little time/season after Satan exits the pit. Then, every eye shall see Him, and we may agree to disagree on that, but...
Time will tell...
John
Name them. Name the Bible scholars who refute the second coming of Jesus Christ as his Third Coming.
Anon, Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 6:29:31 AM PST, wrote:
Name them. Name the Bible scholars who refute the second coming of Jesus Christ as his Third Coming.
******
Anon, we all know the story of Christ and His life, and that murder at the end when He was killed. That was His first coming, right?
He came down from Heaven to earth and was made flesh. That was His first coming. We know that.
Well, did Jesus come down from Heaven again? And the answer is, “Yes!”
Proof that Jesus came to earth again a second time, a second coming, but only hung around for about 40 days. Proof?
John 20:16-23; Acts 1:3; I Cor 15:4-6.
You may look those verses up. Will you believe those verses, or make up your own theory?
Is there any better Bible scholar than God the Father? Anyone better than His Son, Jesus Christ, who was taught by His Father?
The verses cited above clearly explain some events that occurred in Jesus' life during His second coming, and in the lives of others, after God the Father sent His Son to earth again. That 40 day period was very important.
You don't believe that? I can't help you.
All the world is deceived, and we are all deceived: it's just a matter of degree, but Jesus' second coming is history. The Bible scholars you have in mind apparently don't believe those scriptures cited above. Fine, continue on in blindness.
Jesus knew His Father had sent Him to earth again: hence, Biblically-speaking, Jesus' second coming; however, that time He came in the form of a spirit being, and no more solely 100% flesh, blood and bone like Jesus' first coming.
"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." John 12:49
Neither Jesus or His Father have lied to us. Apparently, the world's Bible scholars are not believers of those verses cited above. They are deceived into believing in another Jesus who they expect to "very soon" return to reign on earth for 1,000 years...oh, and then fail at the end after Satan is loosed out of the pit. Do you want to be a part of that?
Jesus' third coming indicates the closest Jesus will get to earth is to be in the clouds, but nothing indicates He is coming down to earth. The Bride, the 144,000, will then follow the Lamb wherever He goes, and it will not be a return to earth at that time. Even the 2 witnesses are not even going to return to earth; they will follow that Lamb to go elsewhere. Common sense? If Jesus were coming to earth, then why wouldn't the 2 witnesses just remain on earth? Duh!
Please return to this blog "very soon" and start a new thread letting us all know that Jesus has returned to begin reigning 1,000 years on earth! Will you do that?
Time will tell...
John
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:28.
You argue for arguing sake. Maybe it makes you feel superior to others, maybe you can't help it. Maybe you have a unique sense of humour. Maybe it's your life's aspirations to try and irritate others. Who knows. But God knows people's heart.
Zechariah 14:4-11
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two.
Anon, Thursday, February 13, 2025 at 6:58:14 AM PST, wrote:
You argue for arguing sake. Maybe it makes you feel superior to others, maybe you can't help it. Maybe you have a unique sense of humour. Maybe it's your life's aspirations to try and irritate others. Who knows. But God knows people's heart.
Zechariah 14:4-11
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two.
******
Anon, who is arguing? It's okay for people to disagree with what scriptures plainly say; their argument is with the One who inspired the scriptures, and time will tell.
Yes, God does know the heart (e.g. Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 8:7), and that heart will not change from that state unless/until God does something to overwhelm it by His Spirit to produce good fruits, as demonstrated in those who have been the workmanship of God's hands, and time will tell on that too.
Why bring up Zech 14:4-11? Do you know which day that verse is referring to? Whose feet will stand on that Mount of Olives, and when will it split? When will you written words be fulfilled: before Satan enters the pit, or after Satan exits the pit?
Are you hinting at a speculation that those verses are speaking about Jesus' feet at His third coming (which you believe is His 2nd coming) when He comes in the clouds, and does not touch down on earth, but returns to His Father's right hand with the 144,000 following Him wherever He goes?
Yes, there is no need to argue anything, because...
Time will tell...
John
Anon, Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 11:46:19 PM PST, quoted a verse:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:28.
******
And yes, Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, but not for all! So, what about it? The statement is true.
And, "...and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation."
What about that portion of the verse? What's the point? The SECOND time?
Weren't the following verses mentioned earier in this thread?
John 20:16-23; Acts 1:3; I Cor 15:4-6
After Jesus' second coming from heaven to earth, those verses mention a whole bunch of people who had the opportunity to see Jesus for the SECOND time. I mean; after the Father had already received Jesus, after that crucifixion, and He came back! That was the second time He was here on earth.
And if any of those individuals arise in the first resurrection, they will have the opportunity to see Jesus for a THIRD time after He arrives in clouds. Don't expect Jesus' feet to land on earth, as the sealed Firstfruits will follow that Lamb back to heaven where they will be accepted by Jesus' God, His Father, their Father...similar to Jesus after His resurrection when He went to heaven to be accepted by His God, His Father.
Is there some consistency there. Is God doing things decently and in order? Yes, the many will be so grateful to the Father (I Cor 8:6), who by His power through His Son, saved the many, won't they?
Time will tell...
John
John you are not letting the Bible interpret itself:
Heb 9:28a so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many,
Heb 9:28b WILL APPEAR [OPHTHESETAI] for a second time, apart from sin,
Heb 9:28c to those AWAITING [APEKDECHOMENOIS] Him for salvation.
“will appear” is future - future indicative passive - future from the time when the author of Hebrews penned his letter, years after Christ’s returned to heaven.
“awaiting” is a verb that expresses an eager looking for Jesus’ return.
Jn 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Lk 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
Lk 24:11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
After Jesus’ death His followers weren’t eagerly awaiting his appearance for salvation; they weren’t even awaiting his resurrection.
Ac 26:16 But rise up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you a servant and a witness both of that which you have seen of Me, and of the things in which I WILL APPEAR [ophthesomai] to you,(BLB).
Ac 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
“ophthesomai” is also future indicative passive.
The vision Paul experienced in 18:9 was future from his Damascus Road experience.
John in a previous post you wrote:
"I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient”.
A question then concerning these verses:
Mt 8:5a And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum,
Mt 8:5b there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mt 8:8a The centurion answered and said,
Mt 8:8b Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way;
Mt 8:13b And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Did Jesus and the centurion literally meet face to face and speak one to another?
Yes. And Thomas after 8 days saw Jesus through 40 days, the last time when Jesus ascended to heaven. On Pentecost, in the morning.
In my previous post I asked this question:
Did Jesus and the centurion literally meet face to face and speak one to another?
The answer I received from 8:25 was Yes.
Unfortunately, the answer is wrong, it should have been NO.
That the answer is NO is derived from Luke’ account of the meeting.
The Scriptural comparison works better in a chart with color highlights:
Mt 8:5a And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum,
Lk 7:1b he [Jesus] entered into Capernaum.
Mt 8:5b there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Lk 7:3b he [the centurion] sent unto him the ELDERS OF THE JEWS, beseeching him
Mt 8:8b Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Lk 7:6c Lord ... I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:
Lk 7:7b but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed
Mt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way;
Lk 7:10a And they that WERE sent, returning to the house,
Mt 8:13b And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Lk 7:19b found the servant whole that had been sick.
Some observations:
In Matthew's account the centurion speaks with Jesus himself, while in Luke's account he speaks with Jesus through his agents.
The elders of the Jews carry a message to Jesus in the centurion’s own words (vv.6b-8).
Matthew relates the words of the centurion to Jesus as though he had been there in person.
In Luke’ account the centurion never has direct contact or conversation with Jesus.
The above accounts highlight the “principle of agency” that was in vogue in the times of the Biblical writers.
Put simply the concept is that “what a man does through his agents he may be said to do himself”.
Based on this principle, Matthew writes from the “Principal” perspective and Luke from the “Agency” perspective.
Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Ps 110:1 is written from the Principal perspective - what the LORD does through his Agent he may be said to do himself.
God is going to use his Agent to put the Agent’s enemies under his feet. That is, the ‘Lord Jesus’ will put his own enemies under his feet.
(Jesus won’t be much longer at God’s right hand in heaven).
Paul brings out the “agency” perspective:
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP the kingdom to God, even the Father; when HE SHALL HAVE PUT DOWN all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For HE MUST REIGN, till HE HATH PUT all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
"We begin by noting that Christ is the grammatical subject of all the verbs in vv. 24-26... what in the psalm is the activity of God is now read by Paul as the activity of the PRESENTLY REIGNING Christ... Moreover, the "citation" of Ps 110:1 in v.25 is yet another place where, FOR PAUL, CHRIST HAS ASSUMED THE ROLE THAT GOD PLAYS IN THE PSALM ITSELF. By changing from first person, where Yahweh is speaking, to the third person, to conform to Paul's use of the psalm, he thus attributed to Christ the role of "putting the enemies under his (own) feet" " (Gordon D. Fee, Pauline Christology, pp.109 & 111).
David provides the type, for the greater David:
1Ki 5:3 ... because of the wars waged against ... David from all sides, he could not build a temple for the Name of the LORD his God UNTIL THE LORD PUT HIS ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET.
The LORD put David’s enemies under David’s feet by his agent David - what God does through His agent he may be said to do Himself.
2 Sa 7:9 I HAVE been with you wherever you went, destroying all your enemies before you. I HAVE made your fame as great as that if the greatest of the land.
2 Sa 7:10a I HAVE established a place for my people Israel and I HAVE planted them so that the might dwell where they are, disturbed no more. (A.A. Anderson, WBC, p.121).
Once again it may be seen that what the LORD did through His agent David He may be said to do himself.
I can concoct a Luke 7 Matthew 8 centurion (C) complementary scenario.......C sent Jewish elders to ask Jesus to come and heal because he's a Roman and not Jewish .....the elders go back and tell C Jesus is coming......C goes and meets Jesus some distance from his house......Jesus tells him He will heal him but because of the crowd following Jesus Mr C goes back home to wait for Jesus' arrival.....realizes Jesus doesn't deserve to come under his roof because of some guilt?.....C sends friends to tell Jesus........the friends go back and find the sick person "whole".......
Anon, Friday, February 14, 2025 at 2:32:13 AM PST, wrote:
"...John in a previous post you wrote:
"I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient”.
A question then concerning these verses:
Mt 8:5a And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum,
Mt 8:5b there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mt 8:8a The centurion answered and said,
Mt 8:8b Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way;
Mt 8:13b And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Did Jesus and the centurion literally meet face to face and speak one to another?
******
First of all, you have claimed that I wrote the following:
"I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient”.
Well, to my knowledge, that is not true. You must have someone else in mind, because I would not say or write something like that.
If you believe I wrote that in some previous post, please provide me the title of the thread and give me the date and time I wrote it. I'll check it out, and if what you wrote is true, then I will apologize to you. I may agree to some extent with those words, but I did not write it.
Secondly, regarding Matthew 8/Luke 7, you asked: "...Did Jesus and the centurion literally meet face to face and speak one to another?..."
And my answer is: "Yes, Jesus said so."
You know that everything Jesus spoke was in parables, so that most would not understand what He was saying, unless/until it was the Father's will, the will of Jesus' God, His Father, to allow the understanding to be revealed to others.
And also, Jesus said of Himself He could do nothing: "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28
The Father was always in charge. Jesus was learning from His Father, as the Father so inspired by the power of His Spirit.
In Matthew, just before Jesus encounter with the Centurion, God inspired a leper to be healed after Jesus touched the man. Some time after that event, a Centurion, face to face, is speaking to Jesus:
Matthew 8:5 "And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him."
Now, how can you deny that?
Only by coming up with some satanic, man-made, theory by perhaps using types, anti-types, some thinking about activity, agency...!
So, my answer to your question is: "Yes." In Luke 7 you also see that Jesus had a face to face with a certain Centurion:
"When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Luke 7:9
Jesus marvelled at him, the Centurion, who had just face to face spoken to Jesus, and then Jesus turned around to give a message to others present.
How far away did that Centurion's sickly servant live from where Jesus was in Capernaum? We don't know, but Jesus was willing to travel to that servant to touch him, like Jesus did with the leper; however, God the Father inspired Jesus to realize that it was not necessary for Jesus to touch him...that God the Father would do it remotely with Jesus just saying so. Jesus, like us, was a learner, and He was the workmanship of His Father's hands (Eph 2:10; Acts 15:18; Heb 4:3).
Anyway, again, my answer to your question is: "Yes," and if you don't believe that:
Time will tell...
John
P.S. Anon, Sunday, February 16, 2025 at 9:07:14 AM PST, gave you an interesting concoction.
John writes:
First of all, you have claimed that I wrote the following:
"I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient”.
Well, to my knowledge, that is not true. You must have someone else in mind, because I would not say or write something like that.
If you believe I wrote that in some previous post, please provide me the title of the thread and give me the date and time I wrote it. I'll check it out, and if what you wrote is true, then I will apologize to you. I may agree to some extent with those words, but I did not write it.
*******
John you did write this. Please refer to your comment on March 18, 2022, 3:51:30 on the blog entitled:
“"UCG Council of Elders Refuse To Reconfirm Vic Kubik For A Fourth Term" March 5, 2022).
The principle of agency is not satanic it was an accepted convention of the Day.
Jn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jn 3:34a For he whom God hath sent [apostello] speaketh the words of God:
“At significant length, Jesus is shown to be the Father’s commissioned “agent” one “sent” by him (e.g. Jn 3:17, 34; 5:23-24, 30, 36-38). Scholars often compare the Jewish institution of the saliah (an “agent”); beyond this comparison, the agency principle that the saliah embodies was pervasive in the ancient Mediterranean world...” (C. S. Keener, “The Gospel of John,” Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, p.429).
Jn 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Jn 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
“The principle that what is done to, or for, a person’s agent or emissary is actually done to, or for, the person who sent him appears frequently in the Gospel tradition (see for example, Mt 10:40; Mk 9:37; Lk 9:48; 10:16), but just once so far (negatively) in John’s Gospel (“Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent me,” 5:23). Here Jesus states it for the first time positively, adding for good measure, “the person who sees me sees the One who sent me” (v. 45). In the following chapters, he will make this principle of agency explicit to his disciples, telling them that “the person who receives me receives the One who sent me” (13:20), “the person who has hates me also hates my Father” (15:23)” (J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.714).
Jn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
“His reply, “The person who has seen me has seen the Father,” is simply a corollary of the principle of agency that he has already presented, first to the reader (12:44-45) and then to his disciples at the meal (13:20)” (J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.777).
Anon, Monday, February 17, 2025 at 2:15:17 PM PST, wrote:
"...John you did write this. Please refer to your comment on March 18, 2022, 3:51:30 on the blog entitled:
“"UCG Council of Elders Refuse To Reconfirm Vic Kubik For A Fourth Term" March 5, 2022)..."
******
Okay, Anon, I must admit I did write those words almost 3 years ago, and I still agree with them, but I would also like to view the context of those words I wrote. So, yes, I will apologize to you, because I forgot that I had written those words almost 3 years ago. I didn't recall them, but I checked out the reference source you provided to make sure it wasn't another "John," who also writes on this blogsite.
But, I will provide that context of those words contained in [[double brackets]] at this point:
[[Anon,
Are you telling me that I cannot believe the writers of Acts 1:3 and I Corinthians 15:3-8, which are so easily understandable and explainable without any further explanation? Are you telling me that those writers, eye/ear-witnesses are liars, and that I need to go to the interpretations of writers of Satan's world to find the truth?
If you are so interested in the Bible's interpretations, e.g. Hebrews, then why are you looking to other's interpretations to explain Hebrews?
I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient. The difficulty comes with people believing what they read.
Hundreds of eye/ear-witnesses know, and know that they know, that Jesus Christ returned to this earth a second time, but in a different form. They all will live again. Will you tell them eye/ear witnesses that they were deceived? That that second coming they experienced was some sort of a sham, a charade? Are you going to tell them that they needed Paul's words in Hebrews with lots of interpretations by a bunch of other non-eye/ear-witnesses?
If God wasn't smart enough to preserve for us the words, even words relative to Christ's comings, in the Bible, then shame on Him, but God isn't a dummy. And He isn't all that helpless.
You appear to be more interested in the opinions, the thoughts, the interpretations of others than you are in the Bible. You appear to be very comfortable with the interpretations of the likes of men such as: Craddock, Morris and Bruce...and you are welcome to all of that, especially since you apparently believe you need their assistance.
Obviously, they don't impress me, and I intend to stick with the eye-witnesses God already us with in what was written regarding Jesus' "second coming" to earth after His resurrection as recorded in Acts 1:3 and I Corinthians 15:3-8.
So, was the information provided about Jesus Christ's second coming to earth, as clearly spelled out in Acts 1:3 and I Corinthians 15:3-8 part of God's truth to us, sufficient for us? Or did God lie to us such that non-eyewitness human interpreters were needed to provide us with some other theory to explain God's truths?
Time will tell...and have a good day!]]
To be continued…
John
Anon, continuing…
Okay, now that that apology is out of the way. Continuing in your post, you consistently refer to the opinions and reference sources of other "Biblical scholars" for their interpretations to support your personal beliefs: something I rarely do.
You like Bible interpretations of others, something I rarely go to. For example, in this post you quoted from the following reference sources:
(C. S. Keener, “The Gospel of John,” Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, p.429)
(J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.714)
(J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.777)
And you are welcome to do that.
I like to think God inspired what He wanted in the Bible, without the need for interpretations, thoughts, opinions of others, although we have to admit Satan's translators have messed around with changing the meaning of many of the words that God had provided, so that he, Satan, can keep up his counterfeits in God’s Plan of Salvation to save all humanity, subsequent destruction of Satan and his angels/devils, Sabbath, annual Holydays, doctrines, gospel, “second coming,” identity of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, whether Jesus Christ had some face to face with a certain Centurian or not, etc. to keep people in blindness to one degree or another, etc. God has allowed that for His purposes.
So, as you consistently like to cite the opinions/interpretations of others, even if they intentionally or unintentionally lead one astray, while I can consistently still say: "I find the Bible does not need interpretations by others. Oftentimes, just reading it is sufficient. The difficulty comes with people believing what they read." People don’t believe what they read and seek out the opinions, thoughts, interpretations of others, and believe those reference sources, even though they disagree with what was simply read out of the Bible.
For example, in another post above I and another individual, both based upon reading the Bible, concluded that the Centurion had a face to face with Jesus Christ.
Based upon the thoughts/interpretations/opinions of others, it was concluded that the Centurion did not have a face to face with Jesus Christ. What is the truth? I prefer to believe the Bible without outside influences, especially when those reference sources conclude something opposite from what is plainly written. Still you are welcome to believe whatever you desire.
I believe the Bible without the interpretations, and opinions, thoughts of other reference sources. It's much less confusing to me. And if we agree to disagree, so what? What difference will it make to one’s salvation? We all can’t be right all of the time, but…
Time will tell.
John
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