From a reader:
The gall of Gerald Flurry accusing a first-century saint of PLAGIARISM! In PCG's recent Royal Vision page 4 under the section JUDE'S PLAGIARISM he wrote:
"Just a few months after Peter wrote his second epistle, he was martyred. Then Jude wrote his book, which he practically plagiarized from 2 Peter 2. Jude simply emphasized what Peter wrote."
Following this flawed logic and stupid thinking, we can assume then that one of the three - Matthew, Mark, Luke - also plagiarized one another as their gospels are very similar.
We can see what he's obviously doing here. He's trying to minimize the negative effects of plagiarism and trying to normalize it in a way so that he can excuse what he himself is guilty of -- doing one over Jules Dervaes' work 'Letter to Laodicea.' This is his act of trying to alleviate his conscience then.
What a shameless accusation of Jude. He ought to be treated as a dissident himself as he hurls accusation against a member of the body. He is spreading distrust and disunity and therefore must be cut off as he had cut off others.
38 comments:
Following this flawed logic and stupid thinking, we can assume then that one of the three - Matthew, Mark, Luke - also plagiarized one another as their gospels are very similar.
Actually, there is far greater difference between Mark and Luke than there is between Letter to Laodicea and Malachi's Message.
Ultimately , there really is nothing new when it comes to human thinking or ideas. Or at least extremely rarely.
So virtually everything is , to some degree, a plagiarism, or a knock off.
The Bible tells us this in Ecclesiastes 1:9
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
What planet do you live on Liam?
Ummm... it's pretty well established that Matthew and Luke copied directly from Mark.
I have to chuckle over this. Everybody plagiarizes in some way if they do any writing at all. The Bible is full of plagiarism. Even Jesus harks right back to Horus and other well-known saviors of the ancient world and to fables about Mythra, Apollo, etc. The creation myth is a plagiarism of Babylonian myths. So is the flood myth. The myth of Moses is a plagiarism too. Centuries after a mythologically hyped myth you can interject a lot that people will fall for and bend old myths to your own purposes. The Bible is loaded with these things.
I'm very active on Facebook, and what others post often stimulates me to write something similar that carries a theme just a little bit farther or brings in a new wrinkle. So what? Thoughts and ideas can't be patented or copyrighted. Anybody can come up with something similar with no evil or larcenous motives at all. Outright copying and putting your name on it like Herbert did with Allen's book on British Israelism is plagiarism, but writing something along the same lines in your own way is not.
am i to assume then, based on some of the arguments above, that flurry's act of copying jules dervaes is okay with you?
Many religious teachers don't consider "borrowing" other religious teachers' teachings to be plagiarism. If they believe those teachings to be true, repeating them becomes just "spreading the gospel". Those who are borrowed from consider it an honor. I'm not saying that plagiarism is ever right, I'm merely observing that this is a case in which those who usually take the moral high ground are in reality taking the low ground.
He lives on Pompous planet, a part of the arrogancy galaxy. He is supreme king with the only brain cell and all the other inhabitants are declared stupid and have to live as he deems.
The makers of the movie Silent Running sued Star Wars, claiming plagiarism. They lost the case, with the Star Wars defenders pointing out several ancient parallels to their movie. Congress felt obligated to loosen the copyright laws, least costly litigation freeze up the movie industry.
It's a messy topic. I've had blog writers, including newspaper writers plagiarise comments I've posted on blogs. But personally, I don't mind since I've learnt so much from other writers.
"Even Jesus harks right back to Horus and other well-known saviors of the ancient world and to fables about Mythra, Apollo, etc. The creation myth is a plagiarism of Babylonian myths. So is the flood myth."
Do you have actual proof of this or are you just spouting what you've read from others?
Do you have any original writings over 2,000 years old that spell out your claim exactly? Or are all those claims merely opinions of historians down through the years with the next historian embellishing on the supposed "facts" of earlier historians?
I find it amazing how atheists have more faith in past historians than christians have in the bible.
It's rather hilarious!
"Kieren said...
Ummm... it's pretty well established that Matthew and Luke copied directly from Mark.
March 4, 2020 at 5:38 PM"
Or, or, or, they merely all lived through the same events and the Holy Spirit inspired them to write in a similar way so that future doubters would have something to place their lack of faith in?
I find it interesting how some will throw everything away once they lose faith in just one man. Gerald Flurry being that man in your case Kieren. Why you ever fell for his bs is beyond me.
While I am all for calling Gerald Flurry out on his crap, it's pretty well established that 2 Peter wholesale copies a big chunk of Jude. Of course Flurry has to have Peter as the original, since they think it was written by the first CoG Pope. But 2 Peter is a very late document, probably second century, that almost didn't make the biblical canon.
That's why we Star Trek TNG and Voyager fans promote the Gospel of Q!
Anonymous Anonymous said...
am i to assume then, based on some of the arguments above, that flurry's act of copying jules dervaes is okay with you?
>>>>> I guess the passive response to all this here is that it is a case of one kook copying the work of another kook, so who cares?
I rarely agree 100% with the contents of any book. But I still read books and learn from them by evaluating what I read. Meaning, I don't disregard everything that Gerald Flurry and his website writes, as some seem to do.
Silent Running sued Star Wars
And remember the curious case of Kuhn/Rader vs Lucas/Spielberg over Raiders of the Lost Ark...
Dexter (5:55): A friend of mine, an AC faculty member, used to say when several people hit on the same idea:
It is a case of either:
1. Great minds think alike
Or
2. Small minds make the same mistakes.
I was born into the Church, so I never "fell for his bs". I was indoctrinated from birth.
I don't really know how to explain it apart from letting you know that every single Biblical scholar, including the ultra-conservative ones, agrees that Luke and Matthew have just taken the text from Mark. Please one of the Harmonies of the Gospels. It is WORD FOR WORD in many places.
It is interesting that PCG has Jude plagiarizing 2 Peter instead of the other way around. But it would hurt their position to suggest that 2 Peter may not be by Simon Peter.
Then again, given PCGs funny way of forcing all sorts of interpretations into various passages, I suppose it's the same old silliness from them.
Types the man who has taken anothers identity.
Kieren wrote:
every single Biblical scholar, including the ultra-conservative ones, agrees that Luke and Matthew have just taken the text from Mark.
FALSE. A few credible Biblical scholars, such as Goodacre, consider Mark the latest of the three, a sort of rough synopsis of the shared highlights of Luke and Matthew. Other scholars disagree with Marcan posteriority, but don't like the idea of Marcan priority as it pretty much requires the existence of a fourth and undiscovered document, usually called "Q", which theoretically contained much of the Matthew and Luke material. The problem with "Q" of course is that there is no evidence of the document, which is surprising considering how many other gospels and letters we have from that time.
Kieren, I applaud the study you have done to break yourself free of your childhood cult. Keep going, and keep learning more. As you grow, you'll surely come to realize that it is rare that "every single" supposed authority agrees on a subject.
"...2 Peter is a very late document, probably second century, that almost didn't make the biblical canon."
Let's not forget the fact that the "canon" is 100% Catholic. That fact always made me uneasy, even while I was a goose stepping member of Herb's cult.
Watch out if you sue for trademark infringement- it may backfire!
News item-
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McDonald's loses 'Big Mac' trademark battle to Irish fast food chain Supermac's. ... The result of the lawsuit means that Supermac's will be allowed to expand their chain throughout the United Kingdom, and that McDonald's no longer has the right to their "Big Mac" trademark in the European Union.
=========================
"Blogger Kieren said...
I was born into the Church, so I never "fell for his bs". I was indoctrinated from birth."
Though not born into the church, I was two years old when my father joined. At 27, in 1992 I finally realized that the WCG hierarchy was wrong and quit. This was about 6 years before my father wised up. We can't blame everything on our parents, you had plenty of adult years in PCG, even wrote for them. While I remain a sabbath and feast keeper I reject the need to join any cog, and most of what HWA taught, you let one man (Flurry) ruin your faith in God. Sad!
It is true that there are a few writers holding to "Matthean priority", though I don't have an opinion to render on the merits.
ACD said... “The myth of Moses is a plagiarism too.”
Watching Patterns of Evidence series my faith in the Bible as God’s Word has been solidified more including the Israelite exodus as a real historical event, Moses as a real historical figure, Moses authoring the Torah, and that Hebrew was the earliest alphabetic system.
Flurry is making excuses to absolve himself and his idol HWA who was a plagiarist too.
the Israelite exodus as a real historical event
Look at the example of the U.S. National Mall after any big public event. Maybe 1 event in 100 has participants who clean up after themselves well enough to leave no evidence of their visit.
Now imagine 40 years of daily events by a crowd larger than will fit on the National Mall. Imagine this crowd moving forward each day so they can't go back and decide to clean up a previous day's mess they may have left.
The fact that there is no evidence whatsoever of a huge nomadic tribe moving from Egypt to Israel is pretty strong evidence that no such move ever occurred. Archaeologists routinely find evidence of tiny towns that were founded and disbanded within a generation or two. But they have found nothing that looks like evidence of the Exodus.
Is there really no evidence or does everyone just think Ron Wyatt was a kook?
https://www.discoveryworld.us/biblical-discoveries/the-real-mt-sinai-is-in-saudi-arabia/
https://www.wnd.com/2018/11/mt-sinai-in-saudi-arabia-see-for-yourself/
The Sinai is a tough place to do archaeology in. Desert sands can bury things deeply, for example an Israeli Jeep from the Yom Kippur war in 1973 was found under 53 feet of sand a few years ago.
Also, if the Israelites were on constant move for 40 years, and did not create permanent rock structures, nor had a serious industrial or agricultural basis (being fed manna and their clothes now wearing out) , then given all those factors, I do not find it unusual that there have not yet been found archeological evidences yet.
There is also debate on the size of the Exodus, and whether or not scribes added the numbers as a foot note centuries later. The Exodus potentially was smaller than thought perhaps.
Patterns of Evidence is a worthwhile watch for either the skeptic or the believer.
When it comes to ancient archeology you have to be very careful about jumping to any conclusions.
It is humbing to realize that even with the Great Pyramids, we still dont know how they were built, who built them (slave labor, orvolunteer labor) or the ultimate full meaning at that time. (other than burial locations).
This being one of the oldest and largest projects ever in the history of mankind up until the modern era. Obviously , a lot gets lost to history. Even the Worldwide Church of God and its relatively recent history, gets lost in legend and apocrypha, and we still have living witnesses!
Nope, no evidence at all:
https://bibleevidences.com/evidence-for-the-exodus/
Of course the "intelligent" among us won't even read this because it's written by a bible believer.
Given some of his other "discoveries", I can't say the "kook" label doesn't necessarily fit.
Yes Liam.
I agree with your point on the exodus.
Reading Ceasars Bello Gallico it becomes apparent that the ancients had a wierd way with numbers, hugely exaggerating tribal numbers for political reasons.
I was in the big room in the Great Pyramid alone and it definitely was not a burial place nor a coffin. It felt like a kinda portal.
It is my opinion that slave labor might have been used for the heavy lifting but it must have been a communal effort involving the entire community that benefitted from the effort in some religious way.
Nck
9:33
I like David Rohl. I'm aware of academic protestations. But Rohl made interesting observations.
Nck
I worked a dig once where we were looking for potential "grave goods" pits at a mound site.
There was a shout from one marked site when the end of a long bone was uncovered. The students immediately began speculating about burials encircling the mound.
A little brushing afterwards... nope. Pig bone. Somebody's dinner, most likely, and probably quite recent. The director just chuckled.
I recently read up on the iconic statues on Easter Island. They weigh tons, were created at the island's quarry sometime between 1200 and 1500 CE, and were somehow moved into positions all around the perimeter of the islands. There have been numerous experiments over the last two centuries to determine how they were moved by the primitives. There are no forests currently on the island for round logs to position as wheels, but apparently forests did exist there prior to the introduction of the Polynesian rat. There are numerous old sites around the world which boggle the minds of those who try to reconstruct ancient construction methods.
Although the area surrounding the Sphinx in Egypt has been a desert for thousands of years, it shows evidence of water erosion which climatologists estimate could have taken place at around 10,000 BC. That would seem to be one for the young earthers to argue over, although they would most likely consider the water erosion to be evidence of the flood.
Who knows? So much evidence that would help our understanding of the past has been lost to antiquity, and we are only left to theorize and guess. Some of us in past discussions have lamented the destruction of the Alexandrian Library, as it may have helped us in confirming or dispelling the many theories.
BB
11:57
Oh yes BB.
I cried seeing the parking lot that used to be the Alexandria library.
Then I cried again since a newlywed Muslim couple asked me to take a picture of them in ancient Alexandria.
Then I cried because of the heat stroke I suffered at the Lybian desert.
Then I cried seeing the new library.
Then I cried because my bags were searched by a thief.
I weep for Alexander the inspiring general travelling from the Nile to the Indus.
Nck
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