Church of God Couple In Prison Over Beating Children With 2"x4"s, Metal Pipes, and Whips

Four years ago there was a media firestorm in Oregon about a Church of God couple who abused their children.  Church of God circles were quick to cover it up and to make excuses. This couple was indicted on 11 felony counts of first-degree criminal mistreatment and 14 counts of second-degree assault against their nine youngest children.

While these disgusting parents were not typical of COG parents, they did represent many in the fringe element of the church that had the same attitude.  Armstrongism has always attracted a fringe group of people who are attracted to all the death, doom and destruction supposedly  to be coming on the world.  These people are also the ones who are into the conspiracy theories, concentration camps, into survivalist/white supremacy and other aberrant beliefs.  These people also look at any writings of the founders, HWA/GTA, Rod Meredith, Gerald Flurry and Dave Pack and others, as God inspired and therefore equal to the Bible.  These people have bought into the aberrant beliefs of Armstrongism and have taken it to a darker level.

You all know who I am speaking of.  Every church area had a couple of families or members who were like this.  Their women wore long dresses with sleeves, no make up. Personal hygiene was not a necessary part of life.  Their cars were old run down things that somehow miraculously got them to church each week.  They either lived in low income areas or on land outside of town that was set back from the road, hidden from view. Abandoned cars, trash, run down homes and trailers was the scenery. Their Bibles were the Moffat translation with it's wide margins so color coded that you would never recognize it as a Bible. They were almost always hard core legalists who would get bent out of shape at the slightest infractions by others.  Their church face was one of pious humility in following God to the letter of the law.  Their mantra was. "God looks at the inward things of the heart and not at the outward appearances."

However, once they got in their cars to go home they were returning to a different world.  Husbands beat their wives, parents beat their children, children were starved and locked up. Child abuse was rampant, mentally, physically and sexually.

Now back to the Oregon Church of God couple. Their names were Robyn and Graydon Drown from Turner Oregon.

The Drown's took Herbert  Armstrong's, Garner Ted's and Rod Meredith's child rearing tactics to heart and to the extreme. In the early years of the church the Church of God advocated corporal punishment as the highest form of child training.  HWA, Merdith and others thundered from the pulpit child rearing sermons. Parents were to spank their children for being rebellions. In the Dayton area, Carn Catherwood, fresh out of Ambassador College Pasadena, told parents from the pulpit that they were to spank their children 25 times and that he wanted to hear the swats carry out into the meeting room. Spokesman Club, as a fundraiser,  sold one inch thick paddles with holes drilled through them to cut down on wind resistance.  These paddles were covered with scripture advocating spanking.


The Drown's actually moved from California which has harsh corporal punishment laws to Alaska where they could dish out punishment without restrictions while maintaining their ties to the WCG.  After the WCG started making its theology changes the Drowns then jumped ship to be "Jewish".  Graydon had been injured in an accident and claimed that his recovered lead him to Judaism. It was eventually the Rabbi that help put them into prison.  No Church of God minister ever intervened in these kids lives.

Robyn Drown (nee Lewis) and Graydon Drown both grew up in Alaska. As children she and Graydon attended church congregations of the Worldwide Church of God about 100 miles apart, but their families knew each other. Graydon Drown then moved closer to Anchorage and began attending the same church as she did. Robyn Lewis and Graydon Drown were married, with Robyn's parents consent, when Robyn was 15. Their first child was born a few months later. Following their marriage Robyn and Graydon Drown lived in California, Alaska, Oregon, and Hawaii. Leading a sparse and insulated lifestyle, at one point the entire family set up camp near Mill City in a sport utility vehicle and a tent. The children who testified this week said they never attended school or saw a doctor or dentist. Portland IndyMedia

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Robyn and Graydon Drown were raised in Alaska, about 100 miles apart. Both of their families attended the Worldwide Church of God, a fundamentalist sect dictated by oversight from church elders and stringent moral codes.

When Graydon Drown moved to Anchorage, Alaska, as a young man, it was closer to Robyn Drown's family, and they began dating.

Later, while he was studying at Ambassador College, the church's college in Texas, Graydon Drown wrote a letter to Robyn and told her that God ordained her to be his wife, just as Rebecca became Isaac's wife in the Bible.

Robyn Drown's parents, Roger and Sandra Lewis, described to the jury how their daughter increasingly was under the control of her husband. The Lewises spoke of times when Robyn left Graydon to seek shelter with them, but eventually returned. Statesman Journal

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While pregnant with their fourth child, the oldest of the nine who have recently been placed in protective custody, it is alleged that Robyn and Graydon Drown fled California to Alaska to ensure they could raise their newborn with their harsh form of discipline and avoid paying child support for the oldest three. The Drowns and her family, by the last name of Lewis, of Anchorage, were members of the radical Worldwide Church of God in Alaska. (  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Church_of_God ) The Drowns moved to Oregon a couple of years ago and claim to have recently converted to Judaism, however acquaintances say that they are not Jewish and their religion changes to suit their circumstances. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/12/383631.shtml

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 "...witnesses for Robyn Drown's defense, her younger sister Heather Larson described to the jury how she and her sister were raised in Anchorage, Alaska, under the faith of the Worldwide Church of God. Larson described the ministers having nearly complete control over the family's lives, including relationships, child-rearing and financial decisions.Larson said the church sanctioned"

"...Graydon Drown believed he was the Messiah and told Robyn Drown that his orders to her came from God. The two were both raised as believers of the Worldwide Church of God and lived in remote parts of Alaska during their marriage before moving to Oregon in 2004.

Holstedt described how Graydon Drown often would recite passages from the Old Testament as arguments for why she should obey him."http://www.statesmanjournal.com

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 As a witness for her sister's defence, Robyn Drown's younger sister Heather Larson said she and her sister were raised in Anchorage, Alaska under the faith of the Worldwide Church of God. ( link to en.wikipedia.org) Members of the Worldwide Church of God consent to giving the ministers nearly complete control over a family's life, including relationships, child-rearing and financial decisions. Larson said the church sanctioned punishing children using belts, but that she never struck her own children. ("The Plain Truth About Child Rearing" by Herbert W. Armstrong) Robyn Drown's supporters outside the courtroom, however, deny that family and extended family have had any affiliation in over twenty years with the Worldwide Church of God or its offshoots. Robyn Drown's family supported her marriage to Graydon throughout.

Larson said the church sanctioned punishing children using belts, but that she never struck her own children.

The Drown's were firm believers in corporal punishment.  I guess they felt they needed to beat the devil out of the kids.  That is what the COG actually taught.  Parents were to beat the satanic influences out of the children so that they would not be rebellious.

The Drwon's methods of punishment were 2"x4".s, metal and plastic pipes, whips, and fiberglass tent poles with rope at the end with knots.

At one of the court proceedings one of their daughters said this:

The oldest daughter recently described being spanked numerous times for the infraction of holding her aunt's hand without permission during a walk, court records show.

According to a 1991 California appellate case that was filed on behalf of child-welfare officials, a psychiatric evaluation of Graydon Drown was done at that time. The report described Graydon Drown as adamant that he would continue to discipline his children in accordance with a religious treatise, which called for punishment immediately upon disobedience to the point of pain, but not bruising.

One of the older boys still at home got tired of the abuse and secretly videotaped his father beating his younger sister while their mother stood by watching and not intervening.  He laid the camera on the bed so all that could be seen was some clothing and a blanket, but is what was heard that was frightening.  It records the sound of Graydon beating his daughter with a fiberglass tent pole with a rope with knots on the end.

Marion County sheriff's Detective Mike Myers testified that he was one of the deputies who went to the couple's home in a rural area of Turner. Myers identified two of the alleged weapons seized during the investigation, the switchlike device and a four-foot pipe made of galvanized metal, allegedly used in beating one of the teenage sons.

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The camera lens was apparently nestled on a bed, capturing a home video of jeans and a towel.

But what was unseen was most telling, as the soft and indistinct tones of a child's voice suddenly gave way to pistol-like cracks of what sounded like a whip, followed by bawling and shrieks of pain.

A man's voice was speaking, at most times inaudibly, in a stony, staccato tone.

The oldest boy secretly videotaped one of the beatings against his younger sibling. He gave the recording to Salem Rabbi Avrohom Perlstein, who then turned it over to authorities.

During Perlstein's testimony Tuesday, he identified the voices on the tape as Graydon and Robyn Drown, the child being beaten and the background voices of other children.

Morris showed the jury Tuesday the alleged weapon thought to have been used for that beating, a fiberglass tent pole segment about two feet long, with an elastic cord tied in a knot that dangled from one end.

On the video, a murmur of voices were exchanged. A man's voice was heard on the recording, asking,

"Where's the stick?"

Then, nearly a dozen sharp cracks are heard. The girl was heard to sob "Daddy," and then a second series of cracks was heard, lasting twice as long. The girl's cries persisted.

The man also was heard to mention the "land of promise."

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The children described how Graydon Drown would preach his doctrine, telling them that he was the Messiah.

Agnes Opgenorth, now caring for some of the Drown children, wrote in a letter to the judge about the shifting blame - how Robyn blamed Graydon, and Graydon blamed God.

"And yes, Graydon, I said you blamed God because I am completely sure that God has never had a hand in any of your deeds," Opgenorth wrote. "If, as you claim, you hear a voice, I can promise you that it's not the voice of God because you are not a man of God ... If God ever even noticed your lowly existence at all, it could only have been a passing glance, while intervening to save your suffering children."

Perlstein, who runs Chabad of Salem, said that it wasn't until after the Drowns' arrest that Perlstein learned Graydon Drown lied about being Jewish. During the trial, Graydon Drown wore a yarmulke, but was not wearing it when he was sentenced on Wednesday.

Les Gutfreund testified how he employed Graydon Drown on a few carpentry jobs with his contracting business and was able to closely observe the family. He noticed bruises and red welts on some of the children, who always explained they were from horseplay or accidents. Later, he discussed his concerns with Rabbi Perlstein.

Perlstein described in court the emphasis on secrecy and the expediency of reporting the abuse to authorities without Graydon Drown knowing.

"From what we've learned from the kids, and me, personally, there was no doubt that if Graydon knew, he'd pick up the house and go."

rliao@StatesmanJournal.com or (503) 589-6941

 

At the trial, one of the Graydon's daughters read this to the court:

Monday, July 21, 2008 To the Honorable Judge Tom Hart To the Attorney General of the state of Oregon And to whomever else it may concern My name is Anya Warde and I am the oldest child of Graydon and Robyn Drown. I understand that they will have a bail hearing in August. I was very relieved when you denied my parents bail. I know that they are incapable of raising any bail and that their family members are not disposed to raise it for them. But it is possible that some other group or individuals might raise the money and that cannot happen. As you are probably aware, this is not the first time my parents have had children taken away from them. A sister, a brother, and myself were taken away because of child abuse when I was four years old. When it became apparent that they would not be getting us back, my parents left and moved to another state, Alaska. They stayed in the secluded areas of Alaska for the next 13 years, moving around and never giving us their physical address. My father and mother call infrequently, perhaps 2-3 times a year when I was a young child. These were not pleasant calls. Rather, they would contain 3-hour sermons from my father, attempting to raise his firstborn from a distance in what he believed. Every conversation ended with a promise to "rescue " us from our "kidnappers. " This was very upsetting to me, and for usually a month after one of these phone calls I would be very difficult to handle. I grew up with the fear of them lurking in the shadows, and even today I have a remnant of anxiety every time I go into a dark room. During one of these infrequent phone calls, my father told my grandparents, my guardians and his parents, that he had a "follower" that had offered to come down to California, snatch us up, and beat up my grandparents. I think a gun was also mentioned. I believe that not only is my father a flight risk, but that if he did have a disciple, and he has always had someone whom he had convinced for a while, or someone wanted to make a statement by helping him out, that he would be a threat to my brothers and sister, and a threat to their foster parents. I believe that even knowing that my father was out of jail could cause my siblings to be afraid. Please do not grant him any bail, however high. To my mind, it is not worth the risk. As to my mother, I have heard from people who talk to her that they believe that she will be out of jail come August, whether by a small bail amount or by being released to her own cognizance I do not know, and that she will have access to the kids. I do not know if she is completely controlled by my father or not. However, if she is, I believe her fully capable of saying things that would make her children feel guilty about testifying against both herself and their father. If she has not been controlled this whole time, then she is as responsible as her husband in all of this, and she should not be allowed near them for the same reasons my father should not be. She has had practice with getting around the social workers during supervised visits, and I fear what influences she would have, one way or another, over the fragile peace and stability that the foster parents are trying to build for my siblings. I understand that Graydon and Robyn Drown have rights, and that they are innocent until proven guilty. But the possible damage they could do to my brothers and sister, if there is  even the slightest chance that they are guilty, does not seem worth giving them the chance at bail and I ask you to take these things into consideration on August 13th. Thank you, Anya Warde

Religion News Blog reports on their sentencing:

Marion County Judge Thomas Hart sentenced Graydon Drown on Wednesday to 29 years in prison. Robyn Drown got 20 years. The sentences were longer, by at least two years, than what was recommended by prosecutors.

“God did bless you with these children,” Hart said when sentencing Robyn Drown, 42. “And you did not do for your children what God did for you.”

Sadly this is not an isolated case. Child abuse has been rampant in the church. Just one more sad legacy that the Churches of God cannot ignore.

You can read more here:

Graydon & Robyn Drown have 9 kids taken from them for abuse & neglect

Child-abuse victims' lives were 'a horror story'

Disturbing details - Robyn and Graydon Drown CHILD ABUSE TRIAL continues

Turner, Oregon residents Robyn and Graydon Drown to face 25 each in charges of CHILD ABUSE

Children of Robyn & Graydon Drown will remain in Protective Care

Fox News: Prosecutor: Oregon Couple Beat 9 of Their Children With Boards, Pipes and Spoons

Mother in child-abuse case says she also was victim She seeks bail, but judge asks why she stayed silent for years

Stunning admission in Robyn Drown CHILD ABUSE case

Dennis On "Our Lives Are Not Analogies"

Our Lives Are Not Analogies

analogy

 [uh-nal-uh-jee]   

a·nal·o·gy

A similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump

Logic . a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.

There were times when I thought the WCG/COG life was just one big analogy.  You know, taking something in real life and making it fit the kind of person I was supposed to be, the way I was to act or think or life I was supposed to live in relation to the Church, Christ, Jesus, God and the Kingdom.  Life was a parable.

The Bible is full of analogies where I was a seed and the ground was the life I lived depending on where I landed.  As a kid, when I first heard that analogy, I wondered why it was the poor seeds fault the sower of seed (God) threw the seed (me) on the rocks, the hard ground, the wayside or the gutter.  Hey!  That's not my fault!  You threw me there.  If where you threw me is a place where I cannot root down and hold on, that's not my fault!  You threw me there!  I would have needed another analogy such as "a seed is like a worm in the earth..."  etc...  That way, by analogy at least, I could have the quality and the ability of being able to move to where the environment was more conducive to my growth.  Gnome sayin'?

Of course, often we were sheep in pastures and had sheep-like qualities as both ministers and members.   We needed to be herded because our tendencies as sheep was to wander off.  We could be good sheep or bad sheep.  We could be smart sheep and stay put or dumb sheep and go over a cliff.  We needed to be fed as evidently we could not eat on our own or find our own food.  We were dumb before our shearers (boy now there is an analogy!), and often "opened not our mouths."   (Also a painful regret)   We had to be led to green pastures and shown when and where to drink. We were controlled by rods and staffs which I assume meant that it was ok for the Shepherd to whack us on the skull when our attention wandered.  COGers are well aware of this analogy and they are endless.  

Sometimes we forget sheep are kept just for sheering or for entrees.  I am just not comfortable with sheep hood as the way to define my life.  Maybe that works for others. 

Well, if we keep up the analogy, if not a sheep then a wolf.    Wolves, being the carnivores they are, are not the friends or to be the friends of sheep.  Of course, we need wolves or there get to be too many sheep and God made wolves too, so there ya go!  As wolves, one is a stalker, a lurker or a chaser of sheep.  At least this is what those who are by analogy Shepherds tell the sheep.  But mostly it is not so.  In real life I don't eat sheep or lamb very often so the analogy breaks down a bit. 

The Apostle Paul loved analogies even if he butchered them.  

Galatians 3:16

New American Standard Bible

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

Now hold your horses here a bit.  (Nice analogy those horses). 

 "Seed" in  this context means descendents as in offspring.  It is PLURAL already!  Paul says since the word is not "Seeds", it must refer to the once seed...which is Christ.  I don't think so!!!!!    Paul is saying if the OT meant descendents of Abraham it would say, "The promise is to Abraham and to his seeds."  Really?   Feed my sheeps?   If I say "feed my sheep," it means I have a herd of sheep not one sheep.  I'd have to say, "Please feed that sheep," to make it one sheep.  Anyway, I think Paul bunged this up and it never seems to have come up again. 

Paul goes on to produce one of the most jumbled analogies known to theologians.  In Galatians 4:21-31 he makes an analogy between Sarah the wife of Abraham and Hagar the slave woman and her children.  Somehow the children of Hagar end up being the Jews of Jerusalem and Isaac and his descendents end up as the "Children of promise," symbolizing the uncircumcised Gentiles who accept Jesus.  Really?  He uses Isaiah 54:1 to kick off his analogy but really makes a scripture mean what it never meant, which like Matthew, he was very good at.  

Somehow the Father of the Circumcision, Abraham, ends up the Father of the uncircumcised Gentiles.  Theologians , real ones, call this "over reaching."  The whole idea of hardened hearts needing to be circumcised is kinda creepy.

Paul makes all sorts of amazing analogies that tend to fall apart upon examination. But he so badly wanted to get the Gentiles into the Covenant, making things mean what they did not mean was raised by him to an art form.  

In 2 Corinthians 3:13-18 Paul goes nuts with an analogy that simply is not true.  He says that when Moses brought the Decalogue to Israel that he covered his face to hide from the people his fading radiance.  Paul then goes on to say "Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their heart but when anyone turns to the lord, the veil is taken away."  What a slaughter of context Paul makes with this analogy.  He makes it mean the exact opposite of what it did mean!  Any good Bible reader can discern that when Moses descended from the mount with the tablets of stone, his face shown.

Very impressive.  When Moses spoke to the people about the law and when he talked with God in the Tabernacle he did so with his face uncovered.  When he was NOT discussing the law or in the presence of God, he covered his face.  The point was the radiance referred to the divine and should not be taken lightly or used in a profane way.  

Ex 34:35

"And the Children of Israel saw the face of Moses,

that the skin of Moses face sent forth beams;

And Moses put the veil back on his face, until

he went in to speak with HIM. '

Paul, by analogy, tried to make the fading radiance to mean the glory of the law was passing away.  However, when Moses radiated, there is no mention of fading radiance and no veil when speaking about the law.  Paul reverses the intent of the OT to make his non-point.  Paul turns the veil into a blindfold over the eyes of the Jews when they read their own Scriptures.  As a result they miss Jesus in those scriptures.  Of course the reason they really missed it is because Jesus is not in those original scriptures and making a bogus analogy and making their scriptures mean what they never meant is not going to work. 

It's a dumb analogy and Paul has lots of them as he wrenches scripture from its context to present his Gospel, quite different from anything Peter, James, John or Jesus would have done.

Anyway, enough of Paul, we had our own modern analogies to herd we sheep.

I went to College at "The West Point of God's Work."  Nice analogy, but pretty weak.  I'm pretty sure the rigor at West Point was a bit more than that I found at AC, or "God's College."  

Once, I had a bad cold and was told wine was good for that.  I had not been a drinker of anykind before AC or the Church.  I grew up with it, but it was no big deal.  At any rate, I sat studying "the Harmony (now understood as disharmony) of the Gospels drinking wine out of a gallon bottle.  The first time I lifted my head to look up, I got dizzy and fell out of the chair..."full of the spirit."  It was hilarious.  Nice analogy.

I very often studied on Saturday evenings alone at my dorm. The Dean got wind of this "study thing you do," and told me I needed to get out more.  He made me attend Basketball games and be the flag boy in the white coat during the Pledge of Allegiance.  I hated it.  On top of that, I had to watch Dave Pack play basketball and I don't like basketball and about the worst thing you could do to me was make the spiritual life into a sports analogy.  From "gun laps" where we ran out of bullets to "team work," which I never really saw much of in reality,  I hated sports analogies  about the Christian life.  They can be abused.  God becomes the team owner, Jesus is the Coach and no matter how hard I tried, I was either the batboy or just a team member.  Members had it worse as they were mere spectators.  

So, I've been a seed, a sheep, a wolf, a shepherd, a snake, and a living sacrifice.  I've landed on fertile ground, sorta fertile ground, unfertile ground, rocks and ravines.  I've had roots and I've fallen over because I had no roots.  I have built my house on sand or on the rocks depending.  I have fallen down, away and flat.  I am once born, twice dead , a wandering star and vomit in the mouth of God...

Man!   All I ever really wanted to be was authentic, genuine and myself.   I only wanted to know what was true and what was not. I didn't want to be scorched by the dragon nor stalked and devoured by a roaring lion.   Raging wave of the sea?  Not me!  No better than a bunch of sticks that are only good to be burned?  Oh please. 

 Is that asking so much?  Yes, evidently, from religion it is asking way way too much...but life is not really an analogy. It is a gift and lasts about as long as the winds across the plains or an ice cube in hell. Religion needs the skeptic like the ocean needs the sand or all risk being swept away in a tsunami of confusion, error and mere compliance like a sheep before her shearers is dumb... Hey, great analogy!!!

Dennis C
DenniscDiehl@aol.com

Prophet Thiel Is Not Happy With Us

Prophet Thiel included the above picture on his news story as PROOF that Guttenberg is a military man 

who will come to overthrow the United States.  

Perhaps what the Prophet has failed to see here is that maybe he was doing a dry run 

on the Charlotte offices?  See the bombs ready!

All of the blogs that have been picking on Prophet Bob's uber-fascination with Karl Guttenberg has finally gotten under his skin.  He writes today:

Yet, certain anti-Church of God critics seem to be besides themselves in their often inane criticism of my coverage of his possible end time role.  There were a few comments from critics that I ran across yesterday, and instead of dealing with much of the nonsense, I thought that perhaps I would quote most of one of the comments that was posted about me in response to an article someone posted partially titled The Prophet Thiel and Beast Guttenberg… at the “Banned by HWA” site:

I guess Bob just didn’t notice that Herr Guttenberg plagiarized…his doctoral thesis, it was an enormous scandal, his degree was revoked, and he resigned from the government in shame and fled the country?
Why wouldn’t one think that his political career is over?

Ya know Bob, if you would stop writing inane speculation on your blog we would not be making fun of you.  Alas, you and many other Armstrongites cannot seem to control yourselves and write all kinds of silliness.

He continues:

Part of the problem with many of my scoffing critics is that they either do not know certain scripture or do not accept the writings of the Bible as inspired.  Since I do accept scripture, this might be a good time to quote a scripture (with three different translations) that some of my critics seem to have overlooked related to the final King of the North:

21 His place will be taken by a reject, a man spurned and passed over for advancement. He’ll surprise everyone, seemingly coming out of nowhere, and will seize the kingdom. (Daniel 11:21, THE MESSAGE)
21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue. (Daniel 11:21, New King James Version)
²¹ ‘In his place will rise a wretch: royal honours will not be given to him, but rather he will insinuate himself into them at his pleasure and will gain possession of the kingdom by intrigue. (Daniel 11:21, New Jerusalem Bible)

 Prophet Bob needs to understand that there are many readers of this blog (over 650 hits a day now) do consider the Bible to be inspired but who cannot and will not interpret it through the lenses of Armstrongism.  Yes, others no longer hold it to be inspired or infallible, but that is not the point.  The point that all the blogs are bringing out is how you interpret what is written in the Bible to make it fit your narrow view of the world.  You can take the Bible and any other great book and relate it to the world around you, yet it doesn't make it true.

Taking events that happened thousands of years ago and labeling them enforce today shows how little biblical understanding Prophet Bob has today.

The Prophet continues with this speculative, unsubstantiated comment:

Since his resignation in early 2011, former German Defense Minister Baron Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg keeps making political and military contacts in the USA and elsewhere that he may be able to use later.  His plan appearance later this week in Georgia (see Karl Guttenberg to Speak in Georgia) is further proof of that.

Prophet Bob yet again claims Guttenberg is here doing reconnaissance as he makes military contacts for the invasion of the Untied States by Germany.  Just because he is speaking in Georgia does not make him a potential world invader or the Beast.  How stupid can some people get?

It looks like I got further under his skin by calling him a "prophet".  He makes this comment in relation to an earlier posting that I did where I listed all of the prophecies about Guttenberg that Thiel claims to have come to pass:

Thus far, several of my speculative predictions about Baron Guttenberg have come to pass (details of several of them are in the article COGwriter Speculations on Karl zu Guttenberg Shown Correct).  Interestingly, the anti-COGwriter critics and scoffers pretty much overlook the accuracy of my speculations (although some do sarcastically refer to me as “Prophet Thiel”).

For those of you that missed Prophet Thiel's amazing list of predictions that have come true, here it is again:

Here are summaries of 23 things from the Bible that Thiel says describes Guttenberg:

Here are 23 biblical-related items to consider:

1. Baron Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg is a leader from middle Europe.  His blood line crosses into various countries in Europe (at least Germany, France, Austria, Liechtenstein, and Croatia). So did the Roman empire. (cf. Daniel 7:24; 9:26-27; Isaiah 10:5-11).
2. He has a military background as he was “Minister of Defence” for Germany..  The Beast of Revelation 13:1-4 is shown to be a military political leader.
3. He is considered to have some economic expertise. (cf. Daniel 8:25; 11:24; Revelation 13:16-17; 18:3)
4. He is an extremely popular politician (he was the most popular in Germany in early and late 2010). (Revelation 13:4,8)
5. He is considered an expert on foreign policy. (cf. Daniel 11:27)
6. He is some type of Catholic. (cf. Revelation 17:7-11)
7. Because he is married to a Lutheran (and she apparently did not convert prior to marriage), he apparently is not super strict about being Catholic (some other news reports I have seen also seem to confirm this in other ways as well). (cf. Revelation 13:4,8; Daniel 11:36-38)
8. His wife also has political connections, and both of them have made various public  “morality statements.”  Hence suggesting that the Guttenbergs represent the moral high ground in Germany. (cf. Revelation 13:4,8)
9. He seems to have ecumenical tendencies, and that is what the “Great Monarch” of Catholic prophecies and the final Beast of Revelation would likely have. (cf. Revelation 13:4,8; Daniel 11:36-38)
10. He may be considered to be entitled to use the “King of Jerusalem” title that Otto von Habsburg held. (cf. Daniel 11:31)
11. Charlemagne was a Frank-German leader and “Holy Roman Emperor.”  The Baron is a descendant of the Habsburg line of rulers (the Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire were from the Habsburg line; cf. Revelation 17:9-11). Certain Catholic prophecies indicate that the “Great Monarch” will be a descendant of Charlemagne. Bible prophecies seem to point to the resurrection of an empire that has revived in the past (Revelation 13:1-3; 17:9-11)
12. He has the right to select the priest for his parish.  Hence, the idea that political leaders should be involved with religion is something he was raised up believing. A leader combining church and state is prophesied in Daniel 11:37-38 and Revelation 13.
13. The understanding that his title means “Baron of the Holy Roman Empire” is interesting as the Book of Revelation describes a power that would resemble a re-emergence of “the Holy Roman Empire” and Catholic prophecy specifically tells of a time when “The Great King will be crowned Holy Roman Emperor by the reigning Pope” (Birch DA. Trial, Tribulation & Triumph: Before During and After Antichrist. Queenship Publishing Company, Goleta (CA), 1996,, p. 555). Baron is a title of nobility, but not one of royalty. (Daniel 11:21)
14. The fact that he has been the most popular political leader in Germany suggests that he has a certain charisma that would be consistent with that which is expected for the final Beast leader (cf. Daniel 7:20,11:21-24,31; Revelation 13:3-5).
15. He is believed to carefully cultivate his public image, which seems consistent with the cunning (Daniel 8:25) and other practices of the final Beast leader (Daniel 11:36-38).
16. Because a Catholic monarchist relative (Karl Ludwig Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg) of his was involved in a plot against Hitler in 1944 (and killed for it in April 1945), he may be perceived as less of a threat than others with a German background. (cf. Daniel 8:23-25; 11:24)
17. He is considered to be a smooth talking attractive leader. (cf. Daniel 8:25; 11:21)
18. Some of his entertainment actions suggest that beneath his exterior he may have certain “vile” tendencies (cf. Daniel 11:21). His plagiarism scandal seems consistent with this as well.
19. He has a problem with arrogance and vanity (Daniel 11:36-37).
20. He is in a type of self-imposed exile and it is possible that the King of the North is supposed to have a period of exile. (cf. Daniel 8:23-25; 11:21-23)
21. He has risen to powerful positions quite quickly.  And may do that again. (Daniel 8:23-24)
22. He has been ridiculed and rejected by many. (Daniel 11:21)
23. He has a certain expertise when it comes to computers and surveillance. (cf. Revelation 13:15-18).

 Prophet Bob close with this final proof for the reason he is infatuated with Baron Guttenberg.  We are in the end times and are commanded to "watch."  Armstrongism has been at the end times for well over 70 years now.  Every single speculation, prediction and utterances has been an abysmal failure.  You would think Prophet Bob would have learned to keep his mouth shut by now.  Especially since Rod Meredith has countless failed prophecies as his legacy.