GOVERNMENT in the ACOGs
Every form of government the ACOGs have tried has failed.
WCG – top guy changed all the doctrines and kept all the money.
GCG – tried one man with a board that could throw him out. This they did even though 80% of the members disagreed with them. Plus, they kept all the money. Then they went broke because they also had most of the expenses and not enough income. Not as smart as the Tkaches.
LCG – back to one man. One man died. Next one up – unknown at this point.
UCG – council voted on by ministers – still split into 2.
The common denominator is the people – specifically the ministry. Everyone wants to be in charge.
For such a small group of people, we have as many splits (400) as the rest of Christianity combined (400). You would think we would be ashamed. We sing Onward Christian soldier – all one body we – we are 400 bodies. 1 Corinthians 3 blasts all the schisms and points out Christ was crucified for us, not the ministers.
The head of man is Christ – not a minister. The ministry role is to help us, not lord it over us like the worldly rulers do.
In Acts 15, we find James, the brother of Jesus, rendering the final decision – not Peter. After Jesus told the 12 they should not be jockeying for position and they should be servants, not lord it over people like worldly rulers, they finally got the point.
Why can’t we all get along today like the apostolic church did? Instead we have leaders who demand titles – Mr. and Dr. – instead of being brethren, we have the formality of 100 years ago. At every company I have worked for, everyone from CEO down is on a first name basis, and somehow manages to still have respect for one another and the management.
Submitted by TLA
Submitted by TLA
20 comments:
May I recommend something never before understood? "He that is greatest among you, let him be your servant"
For every human act there is a moment of decision; a single thought, a breath, a heartbeat...after which all possible outcomes narrow to one.
"""The head of man is Christ – not a minister. The ministry role is to help us, not lord it over us like the worldly rulers do."""
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That is something that I was saying 23 years ago on the Likeminds forum. At that time I was a newcomer because others had been saying the same for years.
The bible doesn't teach a clergy class system. When the bible talks about "the ministry" it's talking about something that we all take part in. The service of the church of God, the spiritual organism, not the organization, and our fellow brothers and sisters in the world.
The only thing even closely resembling government in the bible is the plurality of elders that Paul told Timothy to select in each church.
Elder is not a title or position, it's just an older man, and Timothy was to pick out in each congregations a few older men, strong in the faith, to be overseers. Not to lord it over, but to protect the flock. A one man pastorate was never intended in the bible.
Kevin
The church is not about Jesus, or salvation. It is about money.
TLA said, "At every company I have worked for, everyone from CEO down is on a first name basis, and somehow manages to still have respect for one another and the management."
MY COMMENT - That has been my experience as well. I worked in the corporate headquarters of the fastest growing company in America in the 1980s eventually becoming a Fortune 100 company. Everyone throughout the organization was on a first name basis with each other including our interactions with the Chairman of the Board, Board members, and CEO. The results (fruits) speak for itself - an $80 Million company in 1980 grew into a $20 Billion company by 1998.
Richard
Real respect is not something that happens upon command. It is earned, and in many ways. It doesn't just involve the body, the mind is also on board. This is something that was probably deliberately ignored by HWA. If one thinks deeply enough about this, one realizes why there are so many splinters. Each splinter started because someone found it impossible to respect the individual leader from whom they splintered.
~VD
Former Elder said...
For every human act there is a moment of decision; a single thought, a breath, a heartbeat...after which all possible outcomes narrow to one.
****** ******
Might that possible following outcome narrow down to the following:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Hebrews 9:27
John
Comment was made saying:
...UCG – council voted on by ministers – still split into 2..."
The "founders/designers" of UCG.....including the those who split into other coglets cannot say they weren't warned, b/c on the last day of the Indianapolis Conference for the Ucgaia, just before all departed to return home Victor Kubik read the memo outlining a warning message to all present (Mostly ministers & their wives). That message follows:
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CAN IT EVER BE? That cohesive, Christ-led entity that we all want so dearly? Or does Indy seal our fate to factions and factions? The hopes are high, the stakes are critical. Indy will be either a dawning of a New World Tomorrow, or the proof of our folly.
PIE IN THE SKY is what the detractors say. Some of them are us, you know. Our “leaders” have already laid foundations and are even laying superstructure. The meek words of just a few weeks ago… “We’ve just started this in case it’s of any help, but we’ll gladly dissolve it” are seemingly replaced with corporate structure lauding the wisdom of “follow me.” Has “unity” already slipped to a cliché, a buzzword of egotists? I’ve seen that once people invest time, money and gain supporters they “have God’s blessing.” After all, they prayed about it.
Dissolution of their structure for a greater cause becomes too great a defeat. The show must go on.
WHAT IS INDY? It’s a chance for a ground up, New Testament organized body of believers.
WHAT WILL INDY BE? I know what you and I want it to be. But do you know what many see it as? Separate leaders of several pre-formed groups pushing their system at each other, followed by the winner selling it to the ministry. The ministry is invited to view the outcome and cast in their lot, depending on who "wins" and if they like the smell of it.
WHO LOOSES IF INDY FALTERS? The churches back home. The little flocks who are staking their faith in Indy. The loyal pastors who have forfeited everything to wait on Christ and to come learn his will for their next step. I hope He’s there. He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
Just some concerns and fears…I don’t know what it WILL be, I know what it MIGHT be and what it CAN be. I’ll be there in support. Be careful who gets control. Make sure it’s God.
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It was not written by Victor, but by someone (I suspect some former hireling of WCG) regarding hopes for Indianapolis, who had some insightful thoughts. He was well aware of the potential for future factions, factions, factions...and Who Gets Control! Also, the memo specifies who the losers would be, and haven't there been a lot of those as "the beat goes on."
And time continues to tell...
John
I like that. Kevin is emphasizing the Quaker roots of Armstrongist government. Predominant until about 1943.
Nck
A principle that is seen in nature and in organizational success. In order to grow, and the bigger it becomes, it must be more simple and less complex in its order. The sun for instance is shaped like a sphere , a simple shape, and not like a stop sign.
The problem with the COGS, is that become more complicated, political, and complex, the larger they become. A far cry away from the simple house churches of early Christianity. They all need to be reversed engineered backwards towards simplicity.
Centralized planning, and lack of local control and innovation is another factor. What church , besides the COGS have centralized monetary collection , and centralized control over local congregations without boards, feedback, or accountability. Virtually none. The business model for the COGS is as doomed as the economies of Venezuela, Cuba, and Soviet Russia.
The ACOG culture is neo military command and control. They are copying the world and other tyrannical Christian denominations. I've had ministers deny this, since they know that it's non biblical, and can't be justified. Members are expected, like children, to fake reality and pretend that this problem doesn't exist.
"Unity" is consistently used as a club to force compliance to church beliefs. What happened to not lording it over members faith?
I heard a good minister once say: "The best church government practiced, is the one least seen.
Connie said:
"The business model for the COGS is as doomed as the economies of Venezuela, Cuba, and Soviet Russia."
The business model for the COGs is based solely on Control and Power. The two go hand and hand. After all, the entire emphasis of the top guys was the "Government of God". How many times have you head "Government is Everything?" or "Rebellion against the Government of God."
It was never about what was morally, legally, or ethically correct - but what was commanded. That's it. And how LOYAL you were to the commanders demonstrated how converted you were to the government. If you spoke out against something that you knew was not morally, legally, or ethically correct, THEN you had either an attitude problem, a disloyalty problem, or a conversion problem. If you REALLY spoke out? A demon problem. When the actual problem had nothing to do with YOU - but with the church government.
This is one reason why dynasties were so developed in the Church - father to son to brother to uncle - nepotism on steroids. The Loyalty factor is far more intense in families then in any other relationship.
to sum it up....there's a "BIG PIE" out there to be had & each group HUNGERS for the biggest piece. And with it is/goes the "BIGGIE...I" I...I...I...etc.
WCG government system closely resembles the Anglo Saxon "Witan" system. One tribal leader and a council and counsel 100 percent loyal.
Still legally the entire realm belongs to the queen, the nobles are stewards for the queen.
The family of god concept resembles scottish clan system. One huge loyal family not necessarily genetically related.
Nck
The irony is every Church split has been started and fueled by the ministry and NOT the brethren.
Either by open war or underhanded ways.
Even when the is supposed to be peace, the has always been one minister murmuring about another usually to the brethren.
The WCG ministry could teach the FBI or CIA about uprising, they are highly experienced at it.
How God considers all this behaviour, as He walks amongst the spiritual candlesticks in heaven, is still to be learnt.
Why can’t we all get along today like the apostolic church did? Instead we have leaders who demand titles – Mr. and Dr. – instead of being brethren, we have the formality of 100 years ago.
Actually, the COG7 a hundred years ago was generally a model of informality, with many if not most ordained folks going by "Brother Jones" or "Mr. Smith." It was the hyper-corporate HWA who took the formality of corporate American and implemented it in his corporate church!
Anon, October 17, 2018 at 11:52 PM, wrote:
"...How God considers all this behaviour, as He walks amongst the spiritual candlesticks in heaven, is still to be learnt..."
You may not get all of the nits and grits details, but a lot of information was given to us in Revelation 2_3 and elsewhere. For example, Laodiceans (Rev 3:14), whoever they may be, will exist or God would be a liar.
One other thing is for sure. Jesus admitted that: "...Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." Matthew 15:13
And time will tell...
John
Yes, 3:09! What we had in WCG+ splinters was clearly a man-made construct! The Bible doesn't record conversations in which the disciples call Jesus "Mr. BarJoseph", or St. Peter (hah! Saint = deferring to the Kitchens!) as "Mr. BenJonas". I guess since we're only told that Saul/Paul was the son of a Pharisee, we'd have to call him "Mr. BarPharisee".
Everyone seemed to be respectfully calling one another by first name, according to contemporary corporate mold, and apparently that worked. Nobody blurted out the equivalent of a "Hey, Jesus!" Within the group, they always referred to Him as "Lord" or "Master".
"""Anonymous said...
Anon, October 17, 2018 at 11:52 PM, wrote:
"...How God considers all this behaviour, as He walks amongst the spiritual candlesticks in heaven, is still to be learnt..."
You may not get all of the nits and grits details, but a lot of information was given to us in Revelation 2_3 and elsewhere. For example, Laodiceans (Rev 3:14), whoever they may be, will exist or God would be a liar.
One other thing is for sure. Jesus admitted that: "...Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." Matthew 15:13
And time will tell...
John
October 18, 2018 at 3:26 PM" ""
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If Laodicea hasn't existed for at least the last 150 years I'll give you a quarter.
Kevin
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