Who is discussed the most in your church area? Who does your church leaders talk about the most? Jesus or Satan/demons? Who gets the most airplay? How many articles have appeared in your church magazines and on it's web sites?
After having spent over 40 years in Armstrongism, I have to say that I have heard demons and Satan discussed far more than Jesus ever was. We always had to be on guard because they were lurking around every corner ready to devour us.
Demonic folktales have circulated around Armstrongite churches for generations. Almost everyone knows a story involving demons.
One that was in Dayton church in the early late 60's was about a church woman who was visiting her neighbor (a Catholic). While they were talking a horrible stench started filling the kitchen. All of a sudden this huge gorilla was sitting on the bar-stool over in the corner and it started talking to them. The Catholic woman had some 'holy water' on hand and threw it on the gorilla/demon and rebuked it. The true Church of God member also rebuked it. Confident knowing that only she had the power to rebuke demons. And lo and behold it disappeared. The stench remained, but evil was gone...... Of course the moral of the story was that the WCG woman was the one who actually rebuked it instead of the false Christian Catholic woman.
Another involved Ambassador students in Pasadena. Right before I cam to the holiest place on earth, there were some students who started having toothbrushes levitating in the bathrooms. These demons loved to play with tooth brushes and shaving cream. For some reason these demons like to hang out in the bathrooms.
The house on the corner of Del Mar and Orange Grove was considered haunted by many students. It particularly had a bad reputation in the late 80's when a couple of women from the dorm were assaulted and raped on campus. Bad things seemed to constantly be happening to those who lived there. Later residents who were evangelists and department heads, had family issues with mental health. One had a foster daughter that they locked in her room with padlocks on the outside of the door, another had a child who tried to stab his mother. Of course these were all attributed to the demonic forces prevalent in the house. Even Tkach Sr. did not escape the problems with his wife's mental issues. The fundie church members all attributed these issues with demonic influences.
But interestingly enough, the Israelite people never were that much into demons. Since we loved to imitate Judaism as much as possible you would have thought church 'scholars' would have done their research and found out that Satan and his demons were never major players in Judaism, especially in pre-exilic Israelite religion.
So where did these little buggers come from? Blame the Persian Zoroastrian's.
Somethings to consider and a few excerpts from
What’s interesting to me is the difference between pre-exilic Judaism and post-exilic Judaism. Many of the ideas that show up for the first time in 2nd Temple literature bear resemblance to aspects of Zoroastrian thought (eg. the resurrection of the dead, the apocalyptic destruction of evil, etc.). One has to be cautious about jumping to the conclusion that Judaism simply borrowed from Zoroastrianism. Our Zoroastrian sources are relatively late, so it’s not entirely clear what the religion looked like at the time of Persian rule. And of course one shouldn’t overlook the influence of Greek thought following years of Judean Hellenization. Nonetheless, there does appear to be a relationship of some sort between Zoroastrian thinking and some novel aspects of 2nd Temple Jewish thought.
Pre-exilic Israelite religion, like its near eastern neighbors, was monistic in the sense that it “viewed the universe as a unified system in which each member, divine and human, had its proper domain and function above, upon, or below the earth.” There was no band of demons, led by Satan, fighting against God and seeking to undermine his purposes. Rather, God had at his disposal both benevolent spirits and spirits of calamity. The significant point is that the malevolent spirits were not fighting against God; they were doing God’s bidding.
This viewpoint is quite foreign to us, because we’re far more familiar with the dualistic worldview that emerged post-exile in which Satan and his demons are thought to be rebellious angels battling against God. But recognizing that this was not the way pre-exilic Israel thought helps to explain a number of passages that tend to bother us moderns.
In other words, once dualistic notions of a cosmic conflict between good and evil emerged, some within Judaism began to read their holy texts in this light. Satan, competing deities and other dark powers were reassigned to the evil camp. The notion of a “fall from heaven” emerged to explain (I assume) how this competing camp arose. Verses such as Isaiah 14:12, “How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!”, which was originally a prophecy against the king of Babylonian, were co-opted in support of the new narrative. By the time we get to the New Testament – take the book of Revelation, for example – the dualism is fully developed and Satan is “that ancient serpent” whom God will finally destroy.
Fundamentalist/dispensationalist Christians say that demons are active all around us and are in everything. Other Christians say that Satan and his demons have been vanquished and have no power over us since the resurrection.
So what do think about it?
8 comments:
NO2HWA;
You make some interesting points though we will need to disagree on some you make and others I will need to study a little further.
I have been studying this topic very intently in the New Testament accounts over the past few years and there are a couple of things that John wrote that I find of particular interest possibly giving some insight.
One is found in John 12:31, “…and now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” This seems to be a reference to Satan, Shatan as the Muslims call him. This character, in Matthew’s account of Christ’s temptation is called the “devil,” who confronted Jesus after his forty day fast in the wilderness and offered Jesus rulership over all the kingdoms of the earth if Jesus would fall down and worship him. (Matt. 4:1-11 tells the entire story that Jesus overcame the Devil and the Devil left him.) Obviously this Devil had the authority to offer this to Jesus or Jesus would have probably responded differently.
Another place is in John 16:11 where Jesus is talking about the coming of the Helper or Comforter, (we know as the Holy Spirit from Acts 1:8 as Jesus foretold). Starting in verse 8 “…He (the Holy Spirit) will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.” In verse 11, “of judgment because the ruler of this world is judged.”
In these two passages Jesus is talking and as John (or John’s disciples later added) records Jesus recognizing a Devil or Satan who was interested in Jesus’ activities and wanted to interfere and was then cast out, or would be cast out at a future date but had already been convicted and sentenced.
Jesus also cast out many demons who knew the scripture s of the Old Testament and who Christ was and what His mission and purpose was. (Luke 8:27-39) This story has a rather strange twist in that Jesus let the demons enter into a herd of swine at their request so they would not be sent onto the “abyss” but the swine ran off a cliff and were killed. I assume leaving the demons in the same predicament…off to the “abyss” anyhoo.
One of the signs of “The True Church of Christ” is the power to cast out demons (Mk. 16:17). Interesting that Herbert, “God’s True Apostle of God’s True Church” didn’t have the power to cast out a couple of pesky jins causing mischief in a dorm bathroom.
Or maybe it was because the students were covering for Garner Ted in the dorm bathrooms, who did eventually get cast out , that old devil :<)
Michael
TTDOCF
The fact that in the account of "Satan" offering Jesus all the nations of the world which he showed him from a high location, shows this Satan thought the world was flat and one could see all the nations from one high vantage point.
You'd think the God of this World would know the shape of his world.
For the entire background of the theological origins of the origins of satan I would suggest Elaine Pagels/ Origins of Satan for a well researched explanation of how it all came to be.
I know we can proof text the concept of Satan doing this and that and come up with a great story declaring how it all is in the mind and working of a Satan, but it is all mythology and storytelling.
Without a Satan figure, no good God would make any sense. Relatively speaking, you make me what I am applies here. God needs a Satan, like the ocean needs the sand.
In the original Genesis story, the serpent is not Satan or any Devil. It is the Serpent, the Divine Counselor to the Goddess which was the whole point of the story. The woman, matriarchy, fertility worship and female power in religion were going down. In Genesis the Serpent was the bad boy too so both were no longer credible in Israel religion. Well accept when Moses hoisted a bronze serpent up for the Children of Israel of look upon and be healed. Strange behavior for the same guy who brought the "you shall not make unto thee any ...." this or that's of anything above, on or in the earth. Serpents were kinda special until they weren't.
Satan, like the concept of a one true God evolves from Genesis through the OT just like many other figures. We begin with many Gods and one chief God over the Council of the gods. Satan was just a member of that Council as we see in Job. Eventually the whole council is dissolved and we are left with only the one God of Israel, YHVH who at times had to answer to an even higher God called Elyon. Nuther story and one that was written out of the text in time.
Remember, when you read in the NT what this or that person says about Satan, or the Devil,it is just their story and understanding. We forget it may not exactly be true because, well...it's in the Bible. Still does not make it true.
Both Satan and Jesus are called "the Son of the Morning Star" in the Bible...what's that all about?
Clarification:
Satan, Isaiah 14, is called, "day star, son of the Dawn," which is Venus.
Jeus is called in Rev 22:16 "the bright and morning star," which is also Venus in reality.
Jesus was like superman Dennis, He had X-ray vision and could look through solid rock and beyond mere horizons.
And it says it was an EXCEEDINGLY HIGH MOUNTAIN, exceedingly HIGH Dennis!
But if you must make Jesus and the devil merely mortal even if the devil took Jesus to the moon as a vantage point Jesus couldn't see all of the kingdoms of the earth at one time. Unless he caught a ride on the Space Shuttle. And then He would look like the morning star IF He was in the correct geosynchronous orbit right over your house but in the eastern sky.
I am starting to see where you are coming from. Now I am beginning to see the morning star idea....yeah.
And since you are over 6,000 years old and were in the garden of Eden when it all went down I believe you there too!
Proof text is taking something out of the context from which it exists, like
Elaine Pagels/ Origins of Satan. That is a perfect example of a proof text.
"God needs a Satan, like the ocean needs the sand."
No the ocean does not need sand in many areas it is just mud or rocks..but what it does need is gravity.
And when the devil told Jesus to take a leap of faith the devil at least knew gravity existed even if he didn't know the earth was round. Right!
"but it is all mythology and storytelling."
Mytology to you Dennis, not to me. But I like storytelling especially like the ones you tell:<)
"In the original Genesis story, the serpent is not Satan or any Devil. It is the Serpent, the Divine Counselor to the Goddess which was the whole point of the story."
Again, since you were there I believe you - since you were there, you were, weren't you?
Remember the correct time line Dennis: Eden - Noah - Abraham - Exodus - Greek Mythology based upon the prior mellenia - then Dennis.
Always fun and informative.
Michael
TTDOCF
Michael, your childish responses don't help your cause.
Answer a FOOL according to his folly, remember that Proverb Dennis?
You don't really think that anyone here takes you seriously except for the two or three other Athiests that comment on your articles do you?
I CERTAINLY don't and will not lend any credence to your perversions of the truth and do not expect it.
Ever notice about yourself Dennis when you don't get your way you revert to calling names? THAT IS CHILDISH!
Michael
TTDOCF
"Again, since you were there I believe you - since you were there, you were, weren't you?"
And since no one was there, how do we really know The Prophet really didn't fly up into heaven on a winged horse? Since we weren't there, right?
I also take exception to those who claim that Bilbo took the Ring of Power by force from Smeagol. I mean, they weren't there, right?
And Darth Vader- it's clear from our holy DVD's which recorded the events in the third heavens- some say he was the good guy and Luke Skywalker the bad guy. I mean, come on! Were you there?!?! Noooo.....you weren't.
Not mocking. Just putting your unbelievable, eye-opening, incredulous words into perspective. I'm still shaking my head.
And by the way, since you weren't there, how do you know any of this actually occurred? Don't answer; that was a pointless question. One isn't supposed to put your mythology to such rigorous criticism. It's the way of Satan.
Paul Ray
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