I had to laugh when reading the comments on Apostle Malm's blog today. One of his acolytes wrote the comment below and James responded.
Malm at least has a point for once that is worthwhile. It is true that if the COG's would stop their stupidity, their disgraceful, hypocritical and lying ways, then we would have nothing to report. 95% of what is reported here is copied directly from COG websites and blogs. It's their own words that condemn them! Instead, day in and day out, they lie, they cause dissension, they abuse members, they cause deaths, suicides and untold misery. The list could go on and on. There is nothing "godly" about any the COG's! Armstrongism has always been a cesspool. Twenty five years after HWA's death and they are worse than ever. It's no wonder that not one single COG group is growing. .
And now spread to the e-rags which disgrace the COGs daily….
http://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/
By their fruits you shall know them… PRECISELY! If we did not disgrace ourselve they would have little to write about! What ever happened to God’s command to be above any possible reproach and of a good reputation? James
17 comments:
I can tell you exactly what happened, and the key to this is the sermon about the Day of Atonement on ucg.org (may have been removed by now): It was a credible sermon given last June and went through most of the mechanics of the Day of Atonement. The two goats, the fit man leading the Azazel into the wilderness (throwing it over the cliff was not covered) and Satan being led away into the wilderness along with Jesus Christ's sacrifice being represented by the first goat found by casting lots.
So far so good.
An explanation of how this sacrifice was different from the Passover sacrifice was that this goat was not for those who were resurrected with Christ, but for the rest of the world. Here we start getting off the mark.
Here's the problem: It's all about mechanics. There's no spirituality to it. What does that mean? What it means is that Jesus Christ came to bring people to The Father. All he did was for that purpose, including his sacrifice.
The ancient Israelites had no spiritual conception of the physical things they were doing: They went through the motions, but there was no real meaning to them on the spiritual plane.
And so it is today.
The Armstrongists have the mechanics of what was proposed by the physical laws of the Old Testament, but don't seem to understand the spiritual. The fruit of the spirit is just not there for those lying false prophets out there. In fact, the ministers and leadership of the ACoGs seem to know less about ethics than Corporate America does (I've taken all those diversity courses, so I would know). They don't have a clue. Everything is physical.
Especially their power, salary, retirement and prestige. Many of us have spent years listening to ministers whine about how afraid they were that they wouldn't be able to get their salaries. Furthermore, just like dysfunctional parents laying the burdens of their lives on their children, the ministers and leaders managed to get members to listen to all the fears and apprehensions of the ministers and leaders for years and years and years and years, to validate themselves.
It's 100% selfish for the most part. For the ministers, it's all about them: Me, me, me, me. They don't have a clue about what it takes from each member to support this top heavy beauracratic hierarchy. It's a Ponzi Scheme gone wild without limits and no benefit to those contributing to it. No benefit. Period. None. Nada.
Fortunately, some of us have seen real churches with real church buildings with real ministers who will actually pay attention to you and listen all the way through what you want to discuss with them. I've actually had the experience of having a minister tell me he didn't know the answer (he did offer to pray about it).
The Armstrongists completely ignore the world outside their little dysfunctional community. The Seventh Day Church of God knows all about you. The Church of God Seventh Day knows all about you. They kind of ignore you because you are an embarassment to them (but you are welcome if you would like to attend and actually listen -- you might learn something beyond your own opinions grounded in fantasy and psychosis).
There's virually no spiritual life amongst the Armstrongists and they don't even know what they are missing. They think because they have the mechanics down, they understand everything, when, in fact, they understand nothing.
Douglas Becker prophesied..."The two goats, the fit man leading the Azazel into the wilderness (throwing it over the cliff was not covered) and Satan being led away into the wilderness along with Jesus Christ's sacrifice being represented by the first goat found by casting lots."
MY COMMENT: This is a false belief taught to us by none other, guess who??
"The Armstrongists have the mechanics of what was proposed by the physical laws of the Old Testament, but don't seem to understand the spiritual."
MY COMMENT: Uh...no, they don't even have the mechanics right. They just pick and choose the "mechanics". How could they ever understand the "spiritual" when everything we learned was taught to us by a selfish, narcissistic, Ponzi Scheme man in the first place, and all his sons of hell are in charge of the "mechanics" to this very day?
Steve, almost right. I don't prophesy. The Jews threw the poor goat over the cliff. Historic fact.
And no.
The Armstrongists seem to have the mechanics right (although you probably won't find them with goats on the Day of Atonement, unless it's the old goat giving the sermon).
Hmmm.
Well, I can't see it legal to toss the old goat giving the sermon over the cliff, but it has appeal. Thou shalt not kill and all that. A Commandment understandable by all except Dexter Morgan, and even that's a special case.
I'm not certain that the subtlety of the satire is necessarily available to all... but it's fun to keep people guessing....
Douglas Becker said...
"Steve, almost right. I don't prophesy. The Jews threw the poor goat over the cliff. Historic fact."
MY COMMENT: That's ALL you got right. If the rest of your speculation(which you learned from whom?)isn't prophecy, then what is it? "Satan being led away into the wilderness"? Doesn't that smack of something that's still to occur in the future?
To let you all in on the fun, the first clue you should have is that in spite of the dictionary, the word "spiritual" is undefined. When I use that word, it is the mathematical equivalent of dividing by zero, which is also undefined.
Once we do the equivalent of dividing by zero, we are off and running. This is the basis for the algebraic "proof" that 1 = 2.
It's pure fun: You can use it to sound so very "knowlegeable" when you're really full of crap. Herbert Armstrong did this all the time: Take something that people can agree with and then, wham!, introduce nonsense. Since you can't figure out how to disprove it (because you don't know the trick that he used to "divide by zero"), you're left flat-footed, adrift in a sea of confusion.
It takes rigorous disciplined logic -- which most people don't have and have never been exposed to -- to refute the kind of illogical logic employed by the Armstrongists. After that, it's all down hill with the name calling and empty arguments raging back and forth in accusations and counter accusations.
It's fun though, if you know the trick. The truth is that DNArefutesBI.com is more my effort at exploring web technology than anything, with all the advanced bells and whistles I could figure out. I'm pursuing new stuff for the two other sites I'm working on with more interesting new technological things.
For me, it is impossible to take Armstrongism seriously, except for the damage the Armstrongists do. The fear people have to even consider leaving it is real and, in many cases, extreme.
The thing that makes refuting Armstrongism worth while to me is that perhaps a few people will consider and leave the fear behind. There is always that possibility.
The leaders and ministers want to see themselves as being benign and rendering some sort of benefit to their followers. The reality falls far short and there's no fixing it, short of obliteration. The ministers and leaders can never be trusted (some showed up at the Church of God Seventh Day and made a terrible mess of it). Most are disgraced by their behavior -- some of which is illegal. But they continue to pretend that it's all valid and continue to pursuade people to pay for their own abuse. It's reprehensible and there's no good excuse for it.
So sometimes we can have fun with it.
For the most part, the burgeoning horror of the fear it causes is painful to behold.
And no matter whether anyone can define "spiritual", it's a sure thing that whatever it is, the Armstrongist Churches of God just aren't it.
And to be clear, when I spoke of Satan being put away on the Day of Atonement, I was speaking of the Armstrongist's belief system, not my own.
But that's part of the fun.
Herbert Armstrong didn't know how right he was when he said, "You just don't get it!".
Douglas Becker said..."And to be clear, when I spoke of Satan being put away on the Day of Atonement, I was speaking of the Armstrongist's belief system, not my own."
MY COMMENT: But, didn't you say, "So far so good"? Is that not agreeing with the false belief system that you were taught...up to a point?
And speaking of disgrace, CoGReWriter is at it again with his article about how the price of oil is a blessing to people keeping the Feast.
The Great Creator God over all things is enabling his children to keep the Feast of Tabernacles by lower gas prices -- changing the whole world so that people can waste their money on concentrated lies in one place, spending money they don't really have, based on a second tithe on wages, which the Bible remains silent on.
Members I know of, who have lost their jobs and are now making less money and struggling to make ends meet are so obsessively addicted to Feast Keeping that they are some how managing to travel 900 miles each way to go to the Feast at a site on the Pacific Ocean beach.
Perhaps it would be a good thing to look back a year to compare what the gas prices were then and see just how much of a "blessing" this is.
And next year?
Let's see if anyone can afford to go.
Wait!
If the Armstrongists are wrong about the world going to hell in a handbasket, then the economy will be good, gas prices will drop and they will have plenty of "blessing" to attend the Feast.
Does anyone else see the contradiction in all this?
But at least they have the mechanics down pat.
Steve, no, no, no.
Pay attention.
So far so good as far as in consistency with the Old Testament Christian doctrines -- which have absolutely nothing to do with New Testament Christian practices.
Stop dividing by zero. We know the trick already.
Douglas Becker said...
"Steve, no, no, no."
MY COMMENT: So, you DON'T believe in Satan being the "azazel"? So, it WASN'T a "credible sermon" as you suggest?
"Pay attention."
MY COMMENT: I am. That's why I have you on the run. :-)
"So far so good as far as in consistency with the Old Testament Christian doctrines -- which have absolutely nothing to do with New Testament Christian practices."
MY COMMENT: So, if it has absolutely nothing to do with the New Testament, Jesus Christ being mentioned as the first goat, then how is that "so far so good"?
"Stop dividing by zero. We know the trick already."
MY COMMENT: I'm not trying to trick you. I hope you're not trying to backtrack or change the subject. Wouldn't that be like trying to "divide by zero"? ;-)
MY COMMENT: That's ALL you got right. If the rest of your speculation(which you learned from whom?)isn't prophecy, then what is it? "Satan being led away into the wilderness"?
For the benefit of those unfamiliar with Armstrong, and for those only, the speculation that Azazel represents Satan, came not from Herbert Armstrong, but from the Bible Commentaries: Barnes, Clarke, Darby, Gill, Henry, JFB, K&D. You can verify this for yourself by downloading e-sword and adding all the commentaries, then go to Leviticus 16.
And after that, I invoke my #1 Law.
Is that where YOU got the idea from, Douglas, or were you taught that false concept by HWA? You're not answering my questions:
#1. So, you DON'T believe in Satan being the "azazel"? Wouldn't it be considered a "prophecy" that Satan will somehow fulfill, since he hasn't fulfilled it yet?
#2. So, it WASN'T a "credible sermon" as you suggest?
#3. So, if it has absolutely nothing to do with the New Testament, Jesus Christ being mentioned as the first goat, then how is that "so far so good"?
Douglas noted:
Steve, almost right. I don't prophesy. The Jews threw the poor goat over the cliff. Historic fact.
Douglas, almost right. I don't prophesy. The church threw the poor membership under the bus. Historic fact
:)
Douglas Becker said..."So far so good as far as in consistency with the Old Testament Christian doctrines -- which have absolutely nothing to do with New Testament Christian practices."
MY COMMENT: I'm confused. Let's read what you said in the first paragraph above:
"The two goats, the fit man leading the Azazel into the wilderness and Satan being led away into the wilderness along with Jesus Christ's sacrifice being represented by the first goat found by casting lots.
So far so good."
Steve, I see where the confusion comes in.
No, the UCG.org sermon is not valid, but that is a point of view which I will explain in a moment.
The commentaries speak of the Azazel Goat as either being Jesus Christ or Satan. I hope that leaves you confused. It leaves me confused. Anyway, apparently (and I would have to check with my friend, David, who studied to convert to Judahism) the Jews believed that it pictured Satan being put away, near as I can tell. What seems to be the case is that the Jews don't view Satan quite the way Christians do -- and why would they? They don't view Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
I am on thin ice here, because of my lack of knowledge concerning Judahism, which I will resolve toward the end of the month, but I think that they believe the first goat an atonement. They believe in the coming of the Messiah, but I suspect that they don't believe Messiah will be a sacrifice, but rather a conquering King.
When I first posted on this topic, I was going purely by the commentaries, the preponderance of which indicate that the first goat represents Jesus Christ and the second goat represents Satan. I think that the commentaries were written (at least some of them) before Herbert Armstrong came on the scene.
Therefore...
Herbert Armstrong had the mechanics of the Old Testament legend of the Day of Atonement according to the commentaries and, along with the commentaries, mapped them to the New Testament. So far, so good -- if we keep in mind that Herbert Armstrong was purely keeping the principles of the mechanics of the Old Testament according to the commentaries. We can't be sure, but his ideas were likely lifted from someone else who studied the commentators and regurgitated them, maybe Gilbert G. Rupert or someone else like Ellen G. White. I don't actually know if Herbert Armstrong himself ever had an original idea in his head concerning religion, even down to his false prophecies. Maybe. Maybe not.
Where it all comes apart is that the teaching -- reflected in the UCG.org sermon -- recrucifies Christ. He gives his life in the Spring at Passover and now again in the (mostly fall, but sometimes summer) Day of Atonement. No matter how you screw with people's heads, this cannot make sense. According to the New Testament, Christ died once for all.
And so, speaking theoretically, I don't have to believe any of this (and I am frankly not certain what to make of any of this). The point is that the Armstrongists take the Old Testament, throw in commentaries and pretend that it is something new, when, in fact, it's been around for centuries. Furthermore, some of the ideas have been around with the Jews before the First Century A.D.
I don't know if that makes this any clearer or not. If not, I've tried and will leave it at that.
Very enjoyable to hear you all discussing a sermon....
Very enjoyable to hear you all discussing a sermon....
Perhaps they should be available at all Feast sites.
Oh, they ARE!
Norm
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