Zombie Ministry
Having once been a pastor for WCG and experience in 14 congregations scattered across 5 states over 26 years, I believe I know how the ministry of that organization worked. I knew many very sincere, quietly serving and believing pastors and elders. They were no different than pastors in any other denomination. You probably don't remember their names. They weren't the Dave Pack's, Ron Weinland and Gerald Flurrys of the ministry. For whatever reason, bafoons and theologically challenged salesman rose to the bottom ("the top") while those given to ministry mostly realized they made a mistake in their youth believing that the message of WCG and the Bible were one. . The drama over the heads of the average minister was unending. Personally, I suppressed my doubts, fears and observations about just how this WCG thing was all going. I had moments where I thought it would clarify and common sense would reign but someone always cancelled common sense. HWA was good at that and Joe Tkach Sr and Jr simply never heard of it. Others of you may know of other motives they may have had but all I can come up with is that they were fools.
Dave Pack is particularly a symbol to me of all that I never spoke up about. That is never going to happen again of course and the MOTIVE is to help others see and wake up. No one can make a decision on such matters for a member of any group lead by one man with no common sense and perhaps even mental challenges, but I can encourage eyes to open as do others here. I'm a firm believer in being where one is when they are there until they aren't there any longer. Waking up is a process. It does not come for everyone and others would say I am the one asleep so it's all subject to one's personal view of their story.
We are all breathlessly waiting on Dave's last, last message about Haggai and his calling as Joshua the High Priest as spoken of in that minor prophet. Of course, it is all baloney and Dave just seems to have too much time on his hands to think about himself. I suspect there is trouble in Wadsworth, but we'll see. I am sure Dave has come to the point where he simply just wants this problem he caused in his own credibility to go away. It takes a long time to reweave something to make it look like it was never full of holes. It will prove to be the single greatest public mistake Dave Pack ever made (yet) in what he considers to be his view of himself in the Wild World of God Churches.
Most of us here have read Dave's questionnaire and litmus test for returning ministers should they wish to hitch their star to the Restored Church of God. No real man much less minister , in my view, would ever answer to Dave's satisfaction any of these questions. Dave simply wishes to remodel others in his own image and that is going to take work and leaving one's soul at the door of Dave's office. Any man who who joins Restored Church as a minister is simply a yes man.
Dave Pack is particularly judgmental, mostly mental, when it comes to what he demands of others and how they "should" or "must" be. Dave is big on "should-ing"on others and quite a "must-rabator" in my view of him as I read his screeds.
Here is how he views ministers other than himself and the zombies he has already created for his ministry. From his open letter to the ministry of July 12, 2013.
"Instead, while this announcement will correct you, it will also inspire and surprise you. It includes a series of questions to consider in advance of the Haggai prophecy fulfillment. The goal is to lift you with hope for the future. Another purpose of these announcements has been to awaken in ministers a remembrance of the government of God at work in His Church. If you are reading with an open mind you will understand that what is written is, in part, an appeal designed to get your attention and return you to your true role and calling. You once firmly believed that Jesus Christ had installed you into the office you held within His unified Body. (Yet hundreds of you went on to reduce your God-ordained office to mere “elder.”) Hopefully many of you still believe as you once did."
Dave shows his contempt for "low office" in the COGs. He has never gotten over being sent to work for others back in the day when someone at least tried to tell him he was hardly the kind of man that qualified as a "helper of your joy." He is the SAME today as he was then and I was told by the man who was asked to try and help Dave out that he'd never change. Dave got "demoted" and it really rankled him. Now he can reveal this with his "mere" elder view. Notice he did not emphasise the word "mere" as in it's not really a small thing. He emphasised "elder" as meaning it really is a low office unworthy of himself. Dave is projecting his own contempt on to what the ministry out there should not want to tolerate since they used to have "higher" offices. Lame.. "He that is greatest among you, let him be your servant..."
"Tragically, some will make the wrong decision and lose eternal life. Consider carefully your actions. Your record is being written. Judgment is now on the house of God (I Pet. 4:17). You know human beings. You know they will broadcast what happened in your pastorate. (Future announcements will explain EXACTLY what God says will happen to everyone who does not come—one of three things, none good.)
What kind of of BS is this? Dave decides what a wrong decision is and the consequences of it all for that person. Words of a fool. Dave Pack has not had the best track record of late in explaining anything "EXACTLY" so I'd not worry about the three none good things in store for such losers. I can think of a few more than three things, none good, in store for Dave Pack as this railroad he is building rolls on.
Here's a few points from his litmus test for RCG ministry Zombies to be that are particularly offensive and ill informed.
(3) Established Doctrine and Tradition
- In what doctrines or traditions do you believe Mr. Armstrong “got it wrong”? (Include all areas—be specific.)
(4) Did you actively resist false doctrine in your ministry?—or give safe sermons where you disagreed? (Be specific.)
I don't think I ever gave a safe sermon. That came later when the Tkaches turned sermon giving into ridiculous double talk. You haven't lived until you had to be told Hank Hanagraaf , the Bible Answer Man, was someone you should look to. Personally, during those days, I read books on topics the WCG never addressed. For the past few years you here at BannedHWA have been subjected mercilessly to those results. Your results may vary...
6) Why should you still be considered for the ministry in God’s Church?
- Why should God’s flock ever again be entrusted to your care?
- Are you prepared to re-win brethren’s trust, including brethren now here whom you will likely also pastor? What about re-winning the trust of Headquarters?
This is pure Dave Pack WCG/Global resentment bubbling up in his demands on ministry. Re-winning the trust of the Brethren but in particular of Dave Pack sounds like something out of WWII.
"Are you prepared to re-win the trust of the SS and of Berlin?" Personally I'd not want to be trusted by Dave because it would mean I was dead inside.
(9) Do you now believe again that Christ works solely through one unified organization?
No sorry, can't do that one. Certainly not RCG
(10) In light of government(s) you followed, how do you see God’s government today?
Totally screwed up and not really an issue.
(15) Are you willing to temporarily or permanently become an associate pastor?
No, you weren't so why should I have to put up with that? Goose and Gander stuff here. What? You think I want to be a mere Elder!!!???
(16) Are you willing to be excluded from the ministry until you requalify?
After your recent flub ups and misreading of Haggai, are you?
(18) If your ordination(s) is(are) invalid, are you interested in being re-trained for Christ’s true
ministry?
I'll show you my "Pastor Credentials" if you show me your "Watcher", "Apostle," "Joshua the High Priest" ones... I want to see signatures and seals of approval.
(19) Do you believe ministers should be able to voice opinions to others about:
- Where Headquarters is “wrong”?
- What Mr. Armstrong taught/said/did “wrong”?
- What Mr. Pack teaches/says/does “wrong”?
- Where your boss is “wrong” or harsh, etc.?
- Where you disagree doctrinally?
(20) Do you consider yourself as having been (rate yourself from 5 being best to 0 being worst):
- Weak
- Cowardly
- Slothful
- Covetous
- Confused
- Compromising
- Foolish
- Political (And did you ever “run for office” in a splinter?)
- Heretical
- Deceitful
- Easily deceived
- Betrayed your calling
(21) Why did you lose the ability to “discern good from evil” (Heb. 5:13-14)?—and for so long?
I didn't or I'd not be writing this....
(22) What do you consider to be your ministerial rank?
Genuine Human Being (Dave has always loved numbers and ranks)
(23) Are you prepared to dedicate the rest of your life to serving God’s flock and fixing completely
the horrific mess you helped cause in so many lives?
You first Dave...they don't call much of your ministry "the trail of tears" for nothing.
(24) In light of how you once saw Mr. Armstrong, do you still recognize the fruits of a true apostle when you see one?
Probably not and it would be you if I did.
(25) Describe your spiritual condition today. (Also, rate your temperature from 0-10, with 10 the highest.)
Deeply spiritual and non-religious. 98.6
(26) What 5 biggest lessons did you learn from and since the apostasy? (In order of importance.)
1. Organized Religion is an Oxymoron 2. Rank is an odor 3. Clowns rise to the top 4. The Bible has problems with it 5. You're a hoot
(29) Having now long abandoned many doctrines you said you would never leave, how would you convince Headquarters that this time you “mean it” if you intend to now “hold fast” (Rev. 3:11)?
I would lie and act all emotional, cry, beat my chest, whine, beg and try to perceive what you needed to see from me to fool you into thinking I wasn't "Joshin'" ya.
(31) Are you prepared to spend a full year (or more) catching up with all you must unlearn, relearn, and learn new?
Will I get paid? Otherwise, no. I have a difficult time sitting still in lame lectures.
(33) How would you prove that you are still Spirit-led?—or were ever Spirit-led?
Raise the dead? Heal the man with one arm? Hear the voice of Jesus in my head telling me you are to be obeyed? Whatever works I guess. Tell you that you are awesome? "But I tell you brethren, I'm going nowhere" with Dave Pack.
(35) What did you do after reading the article “God’s People Back Together—SOON!”?
Laughed and thought to myself what kind of a fool would come up with this stuff... I'm not a fan of that "soon" stuff. What did you do Dave after God's people kinda didn't show up? Just askin'
Anyway, stay tuned for Dave's final wrap up of the awesome and amazing prophecy/parallel of Haggai in which God, for 3000 years really, was preparing the world for David C Pack...
8 comments:
Visiting my son in mental institutions over the years and talking with and getting to know the people there, I have encountered so many people like the current Armstrongist leaders.
Fortunately, they did not have followers and they did not even have contact with the general public until they were stabilized and showed enough improvement to leave.
It has left me with my #1 priority to avoid all narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths, cons, nutjobs, crazies and the weird and creepy.
It is also quite apparent to me that such people have no self awareness to determine just how dysfunctional and incompetent they are as they try to make their delusions seem so very reasonable with arcane antediluvian circumlocution obfuscation.
That the ministers in the top echelon of RCG are willing to tolerate this daft dysfunctional environment is testimony to their total lack of integrity.
It would be interesting to see just how "loyal" these lackey hirelings would be if Davey had a couple of bad years and couldn't pay them or provide them with what they want and need.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet they'd go looking for a better deal, which is why they are now where they are.
Back in, oh about 2001, when I belatedly signed on to the internet, having heard that people were catching up on friends and affiliations from their past, I began to input names of friends and schools to see who might be floating around out there. While looking for friends from Ambassador College, I learned about the implosion of the Armstrong empire, the splinter groups and the fact they were even called splinters, that my friend John Trechak had passed away and others such as Ed at the Painful Truth website had taken up his mantle, and that the historic abuses of Armstrongism were still taking place, in some cases in an amplified fashion (if that were possible).
I heard names of people long forgotten, in some cases because they had not been significant in any way in 1975 when I totally walked away from WCG, my last official activity for them having been sabbath security for which I had volunteered months earlier.
One of the names that came up was that of Dave Pack. At that junction in time, the fallout from the Global Church of God (I had to laugh at these big, expansive names for the splinters!) was still recent news. It appeared that Dave had blown his gig with them, and was at that time "rewriting all of Mr. Armstrong's booklets", having started up something he called "The Restored Church of God". It appeared that Dave was injecting much "self" into his ministry, invoking his supposed close relationship with HWA (this was news to me!), and claiming to be the only individual staying 100% true to the teachings of HWA.
Frankly, I thought Dave's so called ministry would never get off the ground. At the point when I had left WCG, the disappointment of 1975 was fresh in all of the members' minds, and most of the people whom I knew realized that there needed to be some sort of reform to HWA's life work, and were very frustrated at the man's intransigence, and his slowness in making beneficial changes, even where credible papers had been presented and concensus reached by those in his inner circle on assorted doctrinal topics. You didn't have groups of super preservationists carefully collecting everything HWA ever said or wrote, cataloguing it and attempting to preserve it. Flash forward to 2001, and this is what David Pack appeared to be attempting.
You simply can't resist the forces of evolution. Nothing remains static, except the snapshots in our memories of the way things might have been ( and we even idealize these) during the "golden eras" which our minds fabricate. Something is always modified or lost when we attempt to faithfully recreate a situation from the past. That is because the re-creation is coming from our own minds, and the essence of self functions as a powerful but imperceivable modifier. It's why good attorneys do not presume to defend themselves in pro per while being tried in a court of law.
As a restorer, Dave Pack was doomed before he ever started. If he has restored anything, it is his own perception and memories of the way things were, only with himself, unbridled and unsupervised, controlling it all. This is a man whose personality virtually demands supervision and accountability, or, as his past history as written by the people whose lives he has affected is that he goes to severe extremes. The ridiculous situation we currently witness is what an unbridled Dave Pack brings to the Armstrong party. Unfortunately, the normal expectation would be that a runaway freight train is not just going to run its course and benignly come to rest. Stay tuned, folks. There's probably going to be a lot more havoc and damage before this particular freight train completes its circuit.
BB
Ahh, the mysteries of the Old Testament prophets.
Here's a mystery for ya: In answer to the Sadducee claim that there is no resurrection, Jesus says, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Kind of ambiguous, don't ya think? Not all that clear? So, why didn't Jesus just quote Dan 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."?
That would have been better, clearer, right? So, why didn't he? It couldn't be because the gospel writers didn't know about that verse, could it? Or that maybe that verse didn't even exist at the time? Or perhaps the Sadducees didn't accept Daniel as scripture and Jesus was just going along with that belief to humor them?
Actually, that's what the guys like Dave Pack do - unintentionally, I'm sure, since they're not all that bright - just scratching their follower's itchy ears. Constantly coming up with stuff that they think no one else has ever thought of before and let the followers make it make sense.
That's exactly how HWA got his followers believing that he was the end time apostle etc. He let his followers come to that conclusion all on their own...with a little ear scratching, of course.
This is a must see to understand how we, and all of humanity end up controlled and enslaved. It certainly applies to hierarchical , unaccountable church government works as well...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A
(Copy link and paste into browser).
An excellent short video that is about as insightful into the nature of the beast within leadership and ourselves that you will ever see.
Your Friend,
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
Judging from my own experience working at the RCG headquarters earlier this year, I can definitely tell you that it is ALL ABOUT DAVE over there. The members are practically obsessed with doing everything they do in their life like Dave would, from the food he eats to the words he uses. I'm glad I blasted out of that insane asylum.
Wow, that's a great analysis of Dave's 'list' !
He should re-name his church to-
"The Intergalactic Herbert W Armstrong UberPack Waiting on Explanations Regarding Haggai and Various Failed Prophecies Church of God"
"Ready for a long day of fundraising. Hot dog...beer...Game Day Turkey? Cleveland Browns Stadium —where beer tastes better in a souvenir cup!" "Sell lots of cocoa".
This was on a post of a member/worker at RCG last December. This is insane and so are their dances at the feasts. I never saw this in all my days of attending Evangelical or Protestant churches.
It's all a joke! Just where is God in all of their fundraising, talent shows, dinner dances, etc.
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