Anonymous writes:
"Herbert W Armstrong was human man, is dead, and his bones are all that is left. He was a sinner as you are, he did not always do things the way he later saw that he should have, yet when you are dead Dennis C Diehl you will be forgotten far FAR sooner than this man who was used by God to bring truth from the Bible back into focus.
I used to water plants in solid Gold planters in HWA's office
I ate at HWA's table with these, but when I said I wanted one because my parents paid for them, HWA said "No".
I challenge you to prove that Herbert W Armstrong EVER personally owned the extremely expensive items you claim he owned as items that he owned.
You mean like Bill Clinton saying it depends on what the word "is" is?
You are a "punk assed charlatan" you are laughable with your "acute revulsion to religion syndrome".I only read your blog as a result of somebody recommending a story dealing with Steve Andrews CoGaic.I am dumber than a rock already, but once I saw your deplorable blog I felt even dumber.Fortunately I have the option to NEVER pay you attention again, that is unless you take me up on the challenge I issued, I don't thiMk you will because you have no valid basis for doing so.HWA might burn up and become ashes under your feet one day (I doubt it), but he even in death for right now is far FAR a better person than you.My advice stop blogging or drink a good glass of anti freeze!"
Thank you for your kind words and observations. First of all, it is not my blog but that is a common assumption. I am merely a guest writer, one of one as far as I can tell. I'm sorry my views , and they are merely mine, made you dumber than you already feel you are. Bummer. You did have the original option to never pay attention to me in the first place. I would find it somewhat creepy to find anyone as ashes under my feet and I have no personal need to stand in them. I'm not a bad guy once you get to know me. I tend to think outside the boxes folk like yourself confine yourself to. I have a really nice dog and miss both my parents who passed away this year at the age of 97. Beaver Cleaver and I have a lot in common. I am a very tolerant and forgiving kind of guy. In hind site I found WCG appealing because I grew up visiting my brother in a state mental institution because he was born premature and the Oxygen they poured on him destroyed his eyes and ear bones. In the day they put the physically handicapped with the mentally unstable. I guess I thought the "Wonderful World Tomorrow" would fix that and if I could help, I surely wanted to.
Oh yes, I am a sinner. No problem with that observation here...
My "revulsion" to religion is not the same as my desire for a genuine spirituality. I guess I got the "revulsion" from reading books. Ever hear of them?
As far as HWA "owning" those treasures posted by the blog owner, I have sat at the table with HWA while served from them or looking and talking about them as they were explained by HWA. The blog owner would know even more about your question than I as he worked regularly in the home of HWA as well as around him to a much greater degree. He helped clean out GTA's home when Ted went to Texas and started his own church I believe.
PS I don't begrudge a busy man his needful suits. Personally, whoever invented tying a knot around your windpipe to look nice needs counseling.
I heard HWA say often "I own nothing but a few suits." I was 18 when I first heard that and thought that was a bit dishonest of him or at least missing the point. He had a million dollar home on Orange Grove Blvd to live in without payments. He could fly all over the world without any personal expense. He could buy anything he wanted because he asked for church monies to put in his wallet. He ate where he wanted and others paid the bill I assume. His non possessions were available to him to enjoy 24/7. I guess that's not my idea of "only owning a few nice suits." He lived in his own Garden of Eden without expense personally as far as I could tell. Having a budget like normal folk was not a concern to him who "just owned a couple of nice suits."
Anyway, thanks for the kind words. It fascinates me how true believer types, of which I assume you are one, can become so vindictive and hate filled when their human leaders are less than honest about their humble estate in life. Personally I prefer the obvious loving kindness and genuine compassion the current Pope seems to have for all people. I know you think he is just pretending so he can rule the world for Satan, but I think he's a genuine human being. While not Catholic, when I think of just what would Jesus do, I'd not think of either you or Herbert W. Armstrong.
I'll pass on the anti-freeze. I'm from NY and I was born with it in my veins.
Thank you again for sharing
Nobody special
20 comments:
I remember HWA telling us at AC that he owned little or nothing. But, as Stanley Rader would say, "It's not what you own; it's what you control that is important." HWA controlled millions of dollars each year. Controlling without ownership is great; all the benefits; none of the responsibilities. It's like when I had a company car. I got to drive it but the company paid all expenses. Nice deal.
Dear Anonymous-
I am just someone who writes comments on this blog, because, even though I am sure that I don't always see eye-to-eye with what the blog owner and it's guest writer think 100% of the time, what they write lines up pretty good with what I feel about stuff a lot of the time.
HWA was one of those rare individuals, thank goodness and the stars above, who was appealing when you didn't know him, and appalling when you did. My guess is you never got to know him quite so well as the owner of this blog did. The fact that the owner of this blog did know him personally, and thinks he's appaulling too, is just further confirmation of what I've independently come to find.
Like you, I might not be the sharpest blade in the drawer, but I'm not too far behind, I reckon. I never had the "opportunity" to know HWA apart from having met him one time when I was about 10 years old. But due to the fact I trusted HWA's promises about some "god" fellow, and said "god" fellow didn't seem to feel the need honor those promises in the slightest, I was able to deduce, without knowing him personally, that he was just a man, and not one being used by any "god" fellow to "bring 'truth' from the Bible back into focus" or bring any other alleged "truth" in or out of focus either. If I were a little sharper, or if I had the opportunity to know him a little better, I bet I would have been able to smell a rat a little sooner. But, I wasn't. That's my own fault I suppose. At any rate, I'm the one who has to deal with the consequences.
I am sorry you feel that you are so dumb. Although I am sure you started off like me, not too sharp, the anti-freeze will certainly take the edge off. It may take a while to kill you, but it's still poison. Sorry about that. There's labels on the back and stuff. Caveat emptor. Too bad there's no warning labels on the back of religions. If there were, it would probably read similar to what's on the back of anti-freeze. Speaking of reading making people dumber, I think it is possible for reading the wrong things to make people think and act dumber than they otherwise would have. A steady diet of HWA's materials could even have a similar effect to regular consumption of anti-freeze.
If I had been smarter than a rock, someone like Galileo, I suppose, I would have recognized HWA as the "laughable punk assed charlatan" he was. Galileo said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we could have attained by them." That's why Galileo was one of the sharpest blades in the drawer. Nobody could pull the wool over this guy's eyes. HWA taught people to forgo the use of their own faculties, by which they could have filled their heads with knowledge that was demonstrably true, and then he taught people to accept beliefs, most of which are demonstrably false, in place of it. There may not be a law against it, but that doesn't make pulling the wool over people's eyes like he did not a crime.
Just because HWA will be remembered for a little while by a few unassuming folk, some of whom claim to be dumber than rocks, only means that he is probably one of the better liars of his generation. But nobody ever said life was fair. If it were, he would have been long-forgotten by 1987. How long does it take to forget people who die in prison?
Illegitimi non carborundum, Dennis. You are a far FAR a better person than HWA. And a little bit smarter than the person who penned this little op-ed.
Hi Dennis,
Wow, some of the hate mail is rather funny indeed!
I'm guessing you've had a bountiful share of it directed towards you, as well as having read another bountiful bountiful share of it on the Painful Truth website.
Is it wrong to find humor in such things? Here's a relevant quote-
"Humor was another of the soul's weapons in the fight for self-preservation" -Viktor E. Frankl, Holocaust survivor.
In case you haven't heard of it, I'll mention the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), founded by Mikey Weinstein- a Jew.
They get hate mail and death threats, too. :-)
Although 96% of their 30,000 clients have been Christians, conservative Christian megachurch leaders and other right-wing blowhards like to brand the MRFF as an anti-Christian organization.
I suppose that lying helps to fill the offering baskets more toward the brim, lol!
So for humor in that arena, here is the latest installment of a sampling of the hate mail the MRFF gets.
Enjoy!
-Norm
Hi Dennis,
Wow, some of the hate mail is rather funny indeed!
I'm guessing you've had a bountiful share of it directed towards you, as well as having read another bountiful bountiful share of it on the Painful Truth website.
Is it wrong to find humor in such things? Here's a relevant quote-
"Humor was another of the soul's weapons in the fight for self-preservation" -Viktor E. Frankl, Holocaust survivor.
In case you haven't heard of it, I'll mention the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), founded by Mikey Weinstein- a Jew.
They get hate mail and death threats, too. :-)
Although 96% of their 30,000 clients have been Christians, conservative Christian megachurch leaders and other right-wing blowhards like to brand the MRFF as an anti-Christian organization.
I suppose that lies help fill the offering baskets more toward the brim, lol!
So for humor in that arena, here is the latest installment of a sampling of the hate mail the MRFF gets.
Enjoy!
-Norm
Once religious gurus grab the attention and loyalty of their followers, nothing negative can stick to them. It's all discounted and argued away someway, somehow. Mohamad is a classic example. He was a sex crazed moral degenerate, but that was accepted in that middle eastern society -- as long as you were one of those all-important males. Females? Get out the stones boys! Can't have those captive vaginas and wombs getting away with anything!
Herbert's moral degeneracy is pooh poohed by loyal followers. His prophetic nonsense likewise somehow explained away.
Once 1975 didn't pan out and I saw through the nonsense of british israelism, D&R, the cover-up of GTA's escapades, etc. it was all over where I was concerned. Not so for true believers. They can rationalize anything!
Dennis, you have no idea how much your writing has helped me heal from the abuse of childhood. Your response to the Anonymous hater is another articulate example of your fine critical thinking skills.
Thank you for the time you invest in writing your articles. You have helped more people than you could possibly ever know.
It is of public record that HWA enjoyed a substantial income, in addition to the enormous benefits in life he enjoyed at the expense of tithe payers and offering givers. The ONLY reason hundreds of churches now exist where there was once one, after the death of HWA, is all these men want a piece of that financial pie. Say what they will, do what they will, spend what they will, not a single one of them looks like, sounds like, cares like, lives like or loves like Jesus Christ did. You don't have to be a believer to recognize that, but it helps... (meant to be humorous)
Boy, we just can't win for losing! Some come here advising us to quit criticising HWA and his lackeys because they are inconsequential and we are wasting our time, and others state that our criiticism is fruitless because we will never be as important as HWA or be remembered as he is.
How about this? Both are probably correct. But, it's important to remember that HWA is only memorable and famous in the same way that Adolf Hitler was memorable and famous.
Using ridiculous extrabiblical theories such as British Israelism and the non-scholarship of Alexander Hislop, he sure set the world straight, didn't he?
This particular anonymous drive by poster sure gave us a barrel of laughs for the new year! Bye bye, troll. I don't know what you proved, but I hope you feel better!
BB
I see the moral aspect of the person defending the apostle of malpractice.
The evidence is clear by the articles at the Painful Truth. HWA's family for the most part says he did it. GTA did not deny it. Then there is Rod Meredith's take on it.
Of course if you were to ask apostle Theil, you might get what you want to hear.
I wish HWA was still around. Maybe the true defenders of HWA would allow him to babysit their daughters on a overnight visit.
Thanks for your support! :) It's pretty cold here in SC this evening. Going down to 21 which is cold for here but will still pass on the Prestone Smoothie!
Just got in from my massage practice. Six clients so today I rubbed six folk the right way and only one the wrong...that I know
:)
I listened to the Troy Fitzgerald interview with Debbie Armstrong, Dwight's daughter, in part because since she's wound up about the same place as I have in terms of believing I figured she might offer some straight scoop into the inner workings of the Armstrong family, but also because I never heard or knew anything about Dwight except for the hymns, of course. In the last 15 minutes, they cover the incest issue.
I had already come to the conclusion that incest rumors were true only because it came up as an issue in the Ramona divorce proceedings. Rumors with no substance are not real issues and would be a frivolous waste of time for high-priced lawyers and busy judges acting in official capacities.
Debbie said that it was kept quiet in the family, mostly for the sake of Dorothy, which is understandable. However, she says that her mother and one of HWA's grandsons both confirmed to her that was true. In addition, she said that neither Dorothy, nor anyone else in the family ever denied it. She said that HWA definitely had hang-ups with sex, and that the one thing he ever gave her was an autographed copy of TMDIS, which she though was a very strange gesture. Kudos to Debbie for being willing to set the record straight to whatever limited degree she can.
These two testimonies may be the closest to "proof" that HWA was, in fact, not just a criminal for his white-collar crimes (fraud), but so far from anything we'd consider "godly" that he's also the type of criminal who has a life expectancy of only weeks if locked up with other criminals (child molester). The HWA this country bumpkin is imagining doesn't correspond in the slightest to the real, genital warts-'n'-all HWA. Say what you will, but hardly a man I'd expect to be "used by god" in any case.
The other thing is that HWA's total disconnect between what he preached and his sex life isn't unusual for highly successful conservative preachers. It's a phenomenon I'll never understand. For my part, religion is questionable, but organized religion is an anathema.
The salient point we need to remember is that the incest was going on during an early and formulative decade of which HWA later said that God was revealing many of the doctrines and restored truths to him. Logically, that raises devastating credibility issues before you would even feel the need to address, prove, or debunk the doctrines themselves.
I agree with Ush. The allegations would not have played any part in the HWA/Ramona divorce proceedings unless all parties took them very seriously. Apparently, they were one of the key reasons for the divorce. The allegations did not originate with Ramona. You just have to know that HWA would have used all of his formidable persuasive powers to avoid this divorce and the embarrassing publicity that accompanied it. With this bombshell, there was nothing they could do, so as in the case of HWA taking Dorothy dancing on Friday nights, he probably trusted that none of his "dumb" sheep would ever believe it. And, ya know what? They don't! Mr. Dumb just dropped by to prove that point.
BB
Head Usher shared some info:
"I listened to the Troy Fitzgerald interview with Debbie Armstrong,"
I googled it and found this link:
http://secularsafehouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/SSH-Deborah-A.mp3
Very good and informative interview!
Interested people should check it out.
I wish to thank Dennis for highlighting this COG troll comment for making me so proud I renounced Armstrongism and am an ex-follower. It has been awhile since I felt so pleased to be out of the jungle of confusion and madness that is Armstrongism.
Wish this page had a "like" button, lots of good comments and I note a constant trend among the HWA faithful that their defensive stance usually includes intimidation, name calling and bold faced refusal to take seriously the facts. This is a WW et al tactic of winning an "argument" by using put-downs, vicious language and intimidating threats of death and destruction to come upon the opposition. They are oblivious to how ridiculous and under-educated they sound. I have a 50+ year history with WW, HWA and the splinter groups. I like to think there is little I haven't seen or heard, but then I am often surprised when another nut takes it one step further. I am only thankful that I still have the mind to see through the criminal mind control after so many years of cultish programming and abuse I've endured. I am often reminded of Gemaliel's words to the Pharisees, in their concerns over the followers of Christ: "If this is of God, you cannot stop it. If it is of men, it will come to nothing." The empire, the colleges, the reputation of HWA, all of it, has come to nothing. Hundreds of HWA wannabees are still trying to perpetuate what is coming to nothing, but it is slowly dissolving. Of the men carrying on in HWA's name, I know of a very small handful who are honest, decent men who are sincerely striving to shepherd a people, even if their concept of what that means might be a bit distorted. What an interesting experience. Heartbreaking at times, but interesting. Dennis and you other guys whose names I recognize from checking into these blogs from time to time, keep up your efforts and sense of humor: truth is found when people probe, ask, question, and search for it. Not when they blindly accept what one man says as absolute, even if it's all the way down to the way he showers each morning.
anon said:
" Not when they blindly accept what one man says as absolute, even if it's all the way down to the way he showers each morning."
You got me laughing here! You have to be an insider to know how everyonce in awhile we'd be reminded that HWA used a "brisk towel to rub himself down after a shower" lol. That was the beginning of too much information right there!
I believe RCM informed us of this fact for some reason
Hi Dennis - regarding the shower and rub down with a brisk towel, yes I am an insider, in fact you and I were briefly acquainted at AC at one time. Yes, I've heard the minister clones talk about the brisk rub-down too, in fact years ago one minister boldly said in a sermon, (loudly), "Mr. Armstrong does a brisk rub down with a towel after he showers, and IF THE APOSTLE does it, DO IT!!!" If I had had the sense of humor then that I have now, I think I would have bust out laughing. Didn't have the courage to when I was younger, but I always thought it was most odd. Not even the Queen of England shares her bathing techniques with her subjects. Cheers, my friend.
I remember being amused with Stephen Flurry's book when he tried to pass the same reasoning off - "Mr Armstrong didn't own any of those things, the church did". Yet at the same time there he was gleefully documenting arguments they made in court about how HWA was not an employee of the church and was not controlled by the church and yadda yadda.
HWA sure did get a nice income. His 1981 income tax form shows $421.052 in gross income. Guess what percentage he contributed to charities, etc. 11%. In 1980 he made $387,755 and gave only 9.6% to charities. Ramona was paid $38,308 as an employee of WWC. She is listed as a secretary. Another dependent that he had is Zella Crittendon, mother. Considering that HWA had an expense account . . . . WOW! Not bad for an old man.
I just finished listening to the Troy Fitzgerald interview with Debbie Armstrong. It was pretty fascinating, but it could have been a hundred times better if Troy didn't suck as an interviewer. His media skills are only about one grade ahead of Bob Th(d)iel.
Nevertheless Debbie did confirm the incest. She also had a lot to say about the process of leaving the cult, which lined up very closely with my own experience. She was very personal and very touching, and her comments really helped validate I made the right decision. It could have been so much worse if I had stayed.
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