If we thought David Pack had mental issues, considering the number of idiotic prophecies that he has uttered over the least three years that aha never come to pass, just take a look at Gerald Flurry's epic predictions.
Flurry has predicted that PCG would be the ones to discover King David's bones.
That PCG would discover the Ark in Ireland where Jeremiah hid it. This is such a magical event that Malone even made an oratorio about it.
Never once to shrink from grandiose dreams, Flurry then went on to claim that the PCG would be the ones to find Noah's Ark on Mt. Ararat. So sure was he that he send one of his patsy's to Turkey to make arrangements.
All of this putrid baloney is spouted out to show the exclusivity of the PCG and how special it is with the sole purpose of getting gullible members to buy into it and send more money in. Sadly, deceived sheep continue to pour money into Flurry's back account so he and his son and their offspring can live lives of luxury on the Edmond compound, as they watch Irish dance and sing along with musical numbers while drinking Dom Pérignon champagne.
From Exit and Support:
June 12, 2016G. Flurry, a few years, back got the members all excited about the dig in Jerusalem. He sent his son, Stephen, students, paid for housing, and an office, and said it was gong to be a big thing. They would find the bones of the kings [i. e., King David] and it would shock the world. Then they left because Jerusalem had became too dangerous. Now they apparently only have one person there.
After that, Flurry got the people all excited about Jeremiah and the ark in Ireland. They made a feast site there and hinted that the purpose of Edstone [see update to May 19, 2014 PCG letter] would perhaps be a part of a great dig and revealing of the ark that would shock the royal family and Laodiceans. R. Malone made a musical about it.
Last year, Flurry hinted about perhaps finding Noah's ark in Mt. Ararat. He even sent Shane Granger to Turkey to set up contacts.
Then they built the arts building (presumably for Wayne Turgeon's daughter's dance class, and for Stephen Flurry's son, who has done quite well in the competitions).It seems money keeps flowing even though many people are struggling in these hard economic times. They ask the people to do yard sales, fruit sales, bake sales, and whatever else they can, to help the Work and Headquarters. Meanwhile, the ones at Headquarters get all the benefits and the struggling members get nothing except that they will go to a place of safety during the Great Tribulation and have the promise of future kingship in the millennium.
It kind of reminds you of a snow globe, how you are on the outside looking in at this beautiful, happy scenery on the inside, never getting the chance to enjoy the benefits yourself, but you have to pay for the snow globe. All these people--members, co-workers--are paying, but unless they live in the privileged areas like Edmond or Edstone they just pay out and do not reap anything except struggle and hardship. Outrageous really. --[name withheld]
37 comments:
That God has hidden the ark for thousands of years, yet has decided to reveal it's hiding place just prior to WW3 is nuts. Confusing wishful thinking with reality, seems a common minister trait.
Has anyone connected the dots yet?
1. Expensive Auditorium
2. Considering the Private Jet
3. Fancy compound for inner elite
4. Little "shrines" at services/Feast sites to the Original Founding Minister
5. Expensive trips with nothing to show for it
P-h-y-s-i-c-a-l
Does anyone see "Agape" (please look it up) in their congregations?
Does anyone visit their elderly in the nursing homes?
Since when do you abandon children?
Do the congregation members fear more... God or Cal Culpepper?
When I joined the PCG in 1994 after experiencing the drama of WCG, it was a really exciting change. Every Sabbath we heard so many new things from Gerald Flurry. I remember one of the changes in the WCG was that there was NO Place of Safety. Imagine my tremendous relief that the PCG was teaching about the POS, and that we would be fleeing shortly! Wow! My family and congregation were so humbled and relieved that we left the WCG just in time.
Then we didn't flee.
Flurry would always hit us up for more money, WE were the ones holding up the Work of God! We had to reduce our standards of living, of course we did, and the HQs grew as our lifestyles shrunk.
Flurry made/makes constant promises that he never keeps.
Telling us to sacrifice everything for the Work.
He told us that the Auditorium would be a witness to the world and that we would be overwhelmed with new members (the church shrunk in size almost overnight!)
When I sat through Flurrys Friday night Bible Study where he announced buying Edstone, I watched the exodus at HQs of people leaving. Instead of excitement, members immediately grew weary!
Flurry speaks of NO MORE DELAY but builds like he has all the time in the world.
Then when the money stops coming in he Declares a FAST! If I had a dollar for every time he declared a fast because he spent too much money, I'd be quite wealthy!
He loves to tell us how the world will tremble and be in awe of us when it's us that will discover all these hidden relics, it's just vanity! He's very impressionable to whatever the latest movie is. Whether it's Titanic, Schindlers List, Lord of the Rings, etc. now he's on this damn Shakespeare kick!
Grant Turgeon is getting married this Sunday, how long before he's a minister? Shall we start an office pool anyone?
If Flurry actually believes this crap he is insane. If he doesn't actually believe this crap he is a con man. Two good reasons for members to get a life and leave his abusive org. .
Gerald Flurry often quotes Jeremiah 3 in support of his belief the PCG will be involved in the discovery of the Ark of the Covenant “Jeremiah 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more”.
He says that for people to "neither....remember it; neither...visit it", it must be discovered prior to the Tribulation or Day of the Lord, which is basically the opposite of what the verse says.
The whole focus in the PCG is now on physical things and status. The reality is they NEED to buy or possess things because PCG’s actual work of proclaiming a message has to all intents and purposes failed. PCG couldn't communicate an idea if its life depended on it, which sadly it does!
It all comes down to this: HWA was a business man and an advertiser who knew how the world worked and how to communicate and get a message across to it. Gerald Flurry is a religious man who has spent the best part his adult life employed as a minister of religion in a closed church community (WCG-PCG). Gerald Flurry has no functional idea about basic communication, advertising, publishing, managerial or financial accountability or even basic business sense. He believes that no matter what he does God will always bail him out.
As a result the PCG has utterly failed to communicate its message to the people of this world, and like the rest of the WCG offshoots to survive now simply feeds off the carcass of the mother church.
Actual new people rarely make contact and those that do are what one PCG minister described to me as broken religious people, i.e. the kind of individuals who enjoy watching religious TV at 4 AM Sunday mornings. The congregation I attend has had not one new member in over 15 years, which is not surprising when you consider that after 25 years in print the actual circulation of the PCG's flagship magazine - The Philadelphia Trumpet - now hovers slightly above or below the 100,000 mark (don’t believe its published circulation figure of 300,000, 200,000 of that is waiting room subscriptions).
The foundational mind set of Flurry is the belief that if he simply emulates HWA: print a periodical, broadcast a 30 minute TV show, start a liberal arts college, buy a jet, go on radio etc., etc. God will somehow bless him and start opening doors.
An archaeological discovery is what the PCG desperately needs to change all this. This is why they will throw big money at any charlatan who can sell them a piece of the true cross or map to Noah’s Ark. It is simple desperation.
As he looks on his declining work and church, Gerald Flurry reminds me of a man facing bankruptcy whose sole plan of action to get out of his financial mess is to spend big on lottery tickets in the vain hope that one day soon he will win big and his troubles will be over. That is the extent of the PCG’s fiscal management plan folks – a belief that they are going to be involved in a major archaeological discovery real soon which will finally break them into the big time!
If something major like this doesn’t happen to the PCG, at some point in the not-too-distant-future it will simply die of old age and bankruptcy. Sadly for the young people turning their backs on an actual qualification and career to study at Flurry’s college and work for his church there is no plan B.
Gerald Flurry often quotes Jeremiah 3 in support of his belief the PCG will be involved in the discovery of the Ark of the Covenant “Jeremiah 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more”.
He says that for people to "neither....remember it; neither...visit it", it must be discovered prior to the Tribulation or Day of the Lord, which is basically the opposite of what the verse says.
The whole focus in the PCG is now on physical things and status. The reality is they NEED to buy or possess things because PCG’s actual work of proclaiming a message has to all intents and purposes failed. PCG couldn't communicate an idea if its life depended on it, which sadly it does!
It all comes down to this: HWA was a business man and an advertiser who knew how the world worked and how to communicate and get a message across to it. Gerald Flurry is a religious man who has spent the best part his adult life employed as a minister of religion in a closed church community (WCG-PCG). Gerald Flurry has no functional idea about basic communication, advertising, publishing, managerial or financial accountability or even basic business sense. He believes that no matter what he does God will always bail him out.
As a result the PCG has utterly failed to communicate its message to the people of this world, and like the rest of the WCG offshoots to survive now simply feeds off the carcass of the mother church.
Actual new people rarely make contact and those that do are what one PCG minister described to me as broken religious people, i.e. the kind of individuals who enjoy watching religious TV at 4 AM Sunday mornings. The congregation I attend has had not one new member in over 15 years, which is not surprising when you consider that after 25 years in print the actual circulation of the PCG's flagship magazine - The Philadelphia Trumpet - now hovers slightly above or below the 100,000 mark (don’t believe its published circulation figure of 300,000, 200,000 of that is waiting room subscriptions).
The foundational mind set of Flurry is the belief that if he simply emulates HWA: print a periodical, broadcast a 30 minute TV show, start a liberal arts college, buy a jet, go on radio etc., etc. God will somehow bless him and start opening doors.
An archaeological discovery is what the PCG desperately needs to change all this. This is why they will throw big money at any charlatan who can sell them a piece of the true cross or map to Noah’s Ark. It is simple desperation.
As he looks on his declining work and church, Gerald Flurry reminds me of a man facing bankruptcy whose sole plan of action to get out of his financial mess is to spend big on lottery tickets in the vain hope that one day soon he will win big and his troubles will be over. That is the extent of the PCG’s fiscal management plan folks – a belief that they are going to be involved in a major archaeological discovery real soon which will finally break them into the big time!
If something major like this doesn’t happen to the PCG, at some point in the not-too-distant-future it will simply die of old age and bankruptcy. Sadly for the young people turning their backs on an actual qualification and career to study at Flurry’s college and work for his church there is no plan B.
Well let's see... The Flood of Noah is a Sumerian Flood Myth so forget that find. Israel Finkelstein of "The Bible Unearthed" says there is no evidence for either the Glorious Kingdom of Solomon or a King David and that Israelite history is exaggerated for effect, so bones may be in short supply. As for the Ark of the Covenant, if it was created shortly after the Exodus and the Exodus itself is a statistical and historically impossibility and , once again, exaggerated "history" made to give a cultic people a huge pedigree, then that's up for grabs as well as to its existence.
I did find HWA's Prayer Tree, to go with Flurry's Prayer Rock, which is currently in front of the Portland Library and on the National Tree Registry here as being planted in the late 1800's and over 40 years old already when HWA used the library. Perhaps they could find that???? Best not cut it down though. Jail time.
With Flurry's incessant need for money, you figure that he would be looking for the "Lost Dutchman Mine" .
Dennis- You could pick some leaves off of HWA's Prayer Tree, iron them between a couple of sheets of waxed paper, and sell them on eBay!
Well, maybe they can use the news that Noah's Ark has been found in WILLIAMSTOWN, Ky!
They could even make a feast site there and hope it rains 40 days and nights!
on June 23, 2016 at 6:47 AM
Dennis wrote:-
"....and the Exodus itself is a statistical and historically impossibility...."
Dennis, do you have an explanation for the content shown in the two links HERE
and HERE
cheers
ralph.f
None of these things will ever be found. How do I know?
If there are any kernels of truth behind the various flood myths, the legends of the "ark of the covenant," or of "King David," the realities which could conceivably turn up in an archaeological dig would be so far removed from the overblown and embellished mythologies we have inherited as to make these finds unrecognizable.
If one found the "ark" of Atrahasis/Ziusudra/Utnapishtim/Noah it would probably be a relatively small reed boat nowhere near the mountain currently identified as Ararat. It would be an interesting find, but no one would ever suspect it was "Noah's Ark."
If there ever did exist an "ark of the covenant," and it were found, it would be categorized as a synchretized Egyptian-style shrine dedicated in this case to a Canaanite deity. Egyptian shrines looked just like the ark: wooden boxes overlaid with gold, with statuary of the deity on top of the lid, and carried with poles slotted through rings.
If the bones of a "King David" were ever found, barring an inscription, they would be the bones of a fairly unremarkable wealthy man. We would no more be able to identify those as we would be able to identify the skeleton of an itinerant Aramaic-speaking preacher named Joshua who got crucified by the Romans, if that much basis to these stories ever existed. There would be no way to positively identify such bones, the way the skeleton of Richard III was identified.
The very idea that such things ever existed in a form recognizable to modern scholarship is based upon the anachronistic notion that bible myths were written like modern histories. Even actual secular histories from the ancient world do not conform to the way bible believers think the bible authors wrote.
The Trumpet web site is the best of all the slivers. It's the only one warning of the soon coming WW 3 Mankind can't say that there was no warning. The others web sites, like the UCG are a joke. It's end time warning is obviously deliberately watered down. I assume this is envy, since they do not want their social club rocked by conscientious members, and they don't want others getting a better position in the kingdom to them selves. It's like crabs in a bucket, pulling down those who try to get out. The ministers are guilty of this as well, giving weak sermons so that they can keep their high positions in the kingdom. Listening to their internet sites, they are giving the same sermons from 30-40 years ago. The knowledge explosion has by passed them. It's the same material when 'leave it to Beaver,' or 'Father knows best' was playing on TV. The ministers wearing 1950s clothing would fit right in. Oh,I just remembered, the ministers DO wear 1950s clothing, And some members even wear those stupid 1950s hats.
There will be no need for the mark of the beast to pick these people out.
Ralph, the youtube videos you've linked to are nothing more using slides to illustrate the torah. So what?
One could just as easily use the work of Schliemann, Dörpfeld, Blegen, and Korfmann to "prove" the historicity of the Illiad.
If you don't think the latter would succeed, you shouldn't think the former succeeds either.
Probably, if any of the ACOGs discovered a relic that the science they now ridcule and reject could be used to substantiate, ACOG leaders would backpedal and reverse themselves so quickly soas to embrace that science immediately. That is because their know it all attitude has never been based on following an evidentiary trail to logical conclusion. It has been based upon selectively searching and adopting evidence which appears to support their preconceived notions, and rejecting anything which disproves or debunks those notions.
Armstrongism is the last organization you would want to have function as the custodian for any sort of momentous discovery. Their very involvement would automatically assign "Piltdown" status to the project.
BB
Ralph, those old videos on chariots on the bottom of the Red Sea etc and the crossing point are not taken seriously by historians or archaeologists. When Bible story hunters go hunting, like Ron Wyatt, (Now deceased) they usually find what they are looking for, even if they don't actually find anything convincing. Those who need the Biblical Exodus can find hints, and only hints that might make them feel it was historically true. But the facts seem to mitigate against it by Israeli archaeologists and critically thinking Rabbis whose history it is.
Archaeologist don't find Israelites warring their way into the Promised land but rather already being there and actually being the poorer class of Canaanites establishing themselves. There is no proof of any Joseph in Egypt or an Abraham for that matter. There might be kernels of truth in some stories but the final Bible accounts are simply exaggerations or outright hearsay and myth.
I would suggest Finkelstein's "The Bible Unearthed" He is relentless in his pursuit of real Israeli history and not afraid to show the story as told is exaggerated with little or no evidence of truth to it all.
I understand our connection to "but the Bible says" but there is freedom in being able to say, "So what, it does not make it so," and do the homework necessary to draw a contrary conclusion about the Sunday School versions of all things Bible.
My view is that there is no proof and just because the Bible tells the tale is not proof it is historically true. I got over "God says in the Bible" a long time ago. It is Priests and Scribes who say. I understand you need it to be true because of your faith. I don't need it to be true so look at alternative explanations of that which never seemed possible , like the Exodus, to me in the first place.
Here is Dr Finkelstein's lecture on "Patriarchs, Conquest and the Exodus. Fact or Fiction." I spoke at length and listened more to him personally one whole afternoon, just he and I at Megiddo on these things before he wrote the book. It was a turning point for me and the exit from ministry and my WCG beliefs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck4ZJFXYzaM
The PCG no longer needs a "archeological find" now that Brexit is over. Twitter is plastered with all the members tweets about "He was right" and showing large photos of HWA and how he prophesied this day over 50 years ago.
But, they're forgetting that he prophesied a lot of things. My parents grossly neglected my siblings and my dental and health care because Christ was returning in the 70's.
Tonight at BS and tomorrow at services there's going to be a lot of gloating about how the PCG was right!
Twitter is over the top right now with the PCG members fawning and worshipping HWA.
Still no mention of Christ!
The Gospel (i.e., the Good News): The kingdom of God is coming “soon.”
The Ezekiel Warning Message: Britain and the United States must repent of their sins or else be punished. BREXIT VOTE: The United Kingdom has voted to leave the European Union after 43 years in it. Prophecy marches on, and "speeds up."
Additional Warnings for Today: Jesus said to beware of false prophets, and that many of them would come and deceive many. So, beware of That False Prophet Gerald Flurry and his PCG impostor cult full of “new revelation” doctrinal changes and filthy old sex perverts.
Anonymous at 3:13 AM said...
“The PCG no longer needs a 'archeological find' now that Brexit is over. Twitter is plastered with all the members tweets about 'He was right' and showing large photos of HWA and how he prophesied this day over 50 years ago.”
Herbert W. Armstrong will prove to have been correct that Britain and the United States need to repent of their sins or else be punished for them.
Gerald Flurry will prove to have been nothing but evil, and his followers nothing but evil. They, too, need to repent of their sins or else be punished. There is no need to feel sorry for any of the sinful and malicious PCG hypocrites.
This is a good time for Gerald to trot out that old “short work” story of his from long ago and hit on his followers for some more spending cash. His followers need to stop wasting time Twittering and start sending in the money. They will be expected to back up all their Twitter talk with hard cash.
Every once in a while, some element of the Armstrong prophecy mold ends up actually taking place, and this jubilation in the ACOGs sets in. The problem is, it is not just isolated incidents which would need to take place for HWA to have been "right". It is his entire worst case scenario, the perfect storm. It may be difficult to remember this, but think hard about when the Berlin wall came tumbling down, and the two Germanies were able to reuinite. That was nearly 27 years ago! Imagine the esprit de corps and validation which must have been felt amongst those who were then in their early 60s, and had been long-term church members who were in their mid 40s at the time of the disappointment of 1975! Those who are still alive from that generation, which was the backbone of the old WCG, are now in their late 80s. There will be adjustment to this British exit, no doubt about it. However, it most certainly does not mean that "he was right", any more than did the fall of the Berlin wall. There was much more to the apocalyptic picture that HWA had painted.
BB
Some church members told me that they lost the will to live because of 1975. Many others victims would hide this out of embarrassment. Only God knows how many were harmed in this way. I don't see articles about 'He was wrong.'
If one believes in the prophecies, it was child-like obvious that England would leave or be kicked out of the EU. No 'visionary' was necessary.
It's "herbificly stupendous!" that the swashbuckling, self-aggrandizing, lying Christian con man Ron Wyatt threw a wagon wheel into the Red Sea and then later just happened to "find" it there, claiming that it was actual "proof" showing the ancient 'Egyptian army with chariots being swallowed up in the Red Sea' myth to be true!
Christian con-man Ron Wyatt (who was not an archeologist, but rather a nurse-anesthetist) also claimed to have found Noah's Ark, the Tower of Babel site, artifacts from Solomon's Temple, the Ark of the Covenant, and discovered how the Egyptians built the pyramids along with nearly 100 other amazingly herbific and stupendous liar's claims.
That swashbuckling megalomaniac Ron Wyatt was an "amateur archaeologist", which is little different from how HWA and GTA were "amateur gynecologists" with regard to how they treated women.
Anon 3:13, I am not sure why I am so annoyed about Britain leaving the EU, but I think part of it because all those fools in the splinters and slivers will be so happy about it because their leader was 'right'. It is a long stretch to apply whatever he said 50 years ago to the current situation, but I suppose the secret to being a successful prophet is to make your predictions as general and vague as possible so that they can be applied to any situation at any time.
I also am dismayed that I would prefer Britain to stay in the EU partly to annoy all those COG fools gloating and celebrating. So now they are Israel again and Germany is still going to be Assyrian??? The show is on again no doubt. Will there be a surge in tithes?
on June 23, 2016 at 4:52 PM
Anonymous wrote:-
"....the youtube videos you've linked to are nothing more using slides to illustrate the torah. So what?"
The 'slides' you refer to merely set the scene, so yo speak. It would seem you ignored the 'movie' segments of the presentations. You make no comment on them.
cheers
falph.f
"Imagine the esprit de corps and validation which must have been felt amongst those who were then in their early 60s, and had been long-term church members who were in their mid 40s at the time of the disappointment of 1975!"
As a matter of fact nobody bothered at the time.
One television station called headquarters since they remembered HWA's message. The official statement from HQ was that the event of the Berlin Wall had no prophetic significance.
This lukewarm reaction was one of the reasons the first split offs started to form. It took several more years for UCG to form.
Now BB. We agree that HWA had no religious significance and thus no prophetic significance.
However we disagree on the folowing. You make it sound all to easy like that the reunification of Germany and todays Brexit are logical facts of nature.
However this is not so.
The statements that Germany would reunite were profound in its time. And the level of suffering that Britain will meet in the future from this Brexit will be a consequence of this ill informed decision. (And I am taking a 15 year time frame for this.)
So who would have expected this completely irrational decision, certainly not the best trained in rationality. (the financiall markets). It is those with a feel for the irrational who could have predicted this. And that is no insignificant feat.
nck
No, Ralph, I didn't "ignore" anything. You ignored what I had to say about the Illiad.
The videos you linked to, are *in their entirety* nothing more than recounting OT bible stories with illustrations.
If you think this constitutes "proof" that these bible stories are veridical, at best, it's a possibly therefore probably fallacy. At worst, there's an element of dishonesty in pretending that there isn't currently information in the public domain that essentially rules out the possibility that the OT is anything more than myth.
Watch this video, Ralph, and read this article.
Since you ignored and made no comment on the equivalent "proof" that the Illiad is veridical, complete with it's supernatural aspects, as dug up by Schliemann, Dörpfeld, Blegen, and Korfmann, I'll once again put the question back to you:
If you think what your videos presents is convincing "proof" of the veridical accuracy of the bible stories, and by extension, of the existence of your gods, Yahweh and Jesus and their inspiration of the OT texts, then why don't you think what's been unearthed at Hisarlik, the archaeological site of ancient Troy, is equally convincing "proof" of the Illiad, and by extension, of the existence of the gods Hephaestus, Apollo, Zeus, Hermes, and Xanthus, and their inspiration of Homer when he wrote the Illiad?
On the basis of equivalent "proof" to accept especially the supernatural aspects of one, and yet to reject the equivalent supernatural aspects of the other, surely requires some special pleading, wouldn't you agree?
All I'm contending for is a little consistency here.
Nck, what I find amazing is that several weeks ago on one of these blogs, there was a Rod Meredith letter in which he bemoaned the fact that the last time he visited England, he was saddened by the fact that they appeared to be losing their traditional national culture. Oddly enough, immigration and loss of sovereignty and culture were reported as being some of the issues which concerned those behind the "leave EU" movement. We had always been conditioned to believe that Britain would be expelled from the EU for its support of the USA and Israel, not because eel pie was being supplanted by falafels.
A business partner and I were discussing Brexit today, and he remarked that those who voted in favor of leaving were mostly the English equivalent of our American rednecks and hillbillies. I asked him if he remembered the Kinks' album "Muswell Hillbillies", and the cut called "Twentieth Century Man". Ray Davies definitely knew that hillbillies were not only found in the colonies! Seems like only the Londonites and the Scots displayed any sense at all in their votes. HWA had a flair for the irrational because he was totally irrational.
BB
You and your business partner are quite informed.
I would not perse call them rednecks, perhaps just people who saw their national health service queue grow from 1 day to six weeks, but certainly it was the OLDER generation verses the younger Although the younger generation failed to realise this and left the decision to the older. (other differences are cities versus country side and Scotland and Northern Ireland versus England.)
(I'm partly citing the Chairman of Cantor Fitzgerald) (I know you like me better if I quote sources.)
Of course I am well aware that I was raised contrary to EVERYBODY around me that Britain would one day leave the EC. I have to admit that I completely forgot the cited reasons for that event to happen.
It seems the recent Merkel decisions on immigration had more impact than a dislike of Brussels. For heavens sake, Cornwall cheese is protected by European Law. And this vote is what the EU gets in return? Cornwall cheese is doomed once the European dairy producers are allowed to make their version of it.
And where would the Anglo's get their eel? From European territorial waters? What a mess.
Sorry, back to topic.
I seriously cannot remember that wcg taught that Britain would be expelled. I knew they taught Britain would be out, but I forgot the reasons.
In any case. Only in law school did I realise the divide between the Anglo Saxon (American) legal system and the European Roman Law system. It was then that I realized how big that divide actually was and how strange to call Brits European. I guess European is more of an American pet name for their British cousins. (On another site I made the claim (as senator Phil Gramm once did) that the impoverished England (Not United Kingdom but England) might one day join Nafta as part of Canada.
Call me crazy but yesterday in just one hour British Companies lost more value than 31 years of EU contribition fee.
I'm depending on your positive outlook to convince me this is a buying moment. LOL
nck
On another note.
You are aware of my obsession with anything Armstrongite. (A bit like you.)
Although we differ on the point if HWA was a religous figure, (I feel he was not.)
I am pretty confident that TODAY you will be presented the 10 NATIONS plan!
Just watch the local news today on the European reaction to this vote. It will be swifter than one could possibly imagine of those powerless grey suits.
Still I am not prepared to recognize hwa a religious figure.
nck
on June 24, 2016 at 2:09 PM
Stephen wrote:-
"The videos you linked to, are *in their entirety* nothing more than recounting OT bible stories with illustrations."
Then you go onto say "If you think this constitutes "proof" that these bible stories are veridical, at best, it's a possibly therefore probably fallacy. At worst, there's an element of dishonesty in pretending that there isn't currently information in the public domain that essentially rules out the possibility that the OT is anything more than myth."
which I don't quite understand.
My original comment was in response to Dennis Diehl who wrote on on June 23, 2016 at 6:47 AM :- "....and the Exodus itself is a statistical and historically impossibility...."
You seem to be leading off the track with your references to "Schliemann, Dörpfeld, Blegen, and Korfmann,"
My post was to simply offer evidence that the 'Red Sea Crossing' during the Exodus did take place. Obviously all who read are at liberty to accept or reject such evidence.
BTW, Israel Finkelstein is a brand new name to me and on initial searching needs a lot more reading. At first glance he appears to be a Jew who denies his Jewish heritage.So far I haven't been able to determine his attitude towards Jesus Christ. Do you have any links to offer?
cheers
ralph.f
I have no need to reject videos that retell bible stories with illustrations. They are not evidence. That is my point, which I keep repeating, now for the third time.
Rather than "leading off track," what I am ALSO saying, which is entirely germane to the issue at hand, which I also have to keep repeating, is that IF your illustrated videos WERE evidence, IF what they present SHOULD convince you, or me, or anyone at all, of a supernatural Red Sea crossing, then the archaeology from Hisarlik (Ancient Troy) SHOULD ALSO convince you, me, and people in general, of the supernatural events recorded Homer's Illiad.
Let me say it again: IF there is "evidence" that the Exodus story, complete with it's supernatural events really did take place, THEN there is also "evidence" that the Illiad, complete with it's supernatural events, also took place. (Hint: neither one could be considered "history").
All I'm asking for is a little consistency.
Links?
Let's start off by relinking to the links that were already provided:
Dennis already provided this link:
"Patriarchs, Exodus, Conquest: Fact or Fiction?" Israel Finkelstein
I already provided these two links:
Bible Unearthed (Documentary)
A "Centrist" at the Center of Controversy: BAR Interviews Israel Finkelstein (Article)
Also, let's not forget Israel Finkelstein & Neil Asher Silberman's book, available on Amazon, The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts
You should really order a copy, or go to your library and check it out.
Here's a quote from Israel Finkelstein from the article I linked to:
"In the classical form of biblical archeology, archaeology was expected to decorate the story. Archaeology was not expected to give its own testimony. Archaeologists started their investigation from the biblical story, and archaeology was expected to give some sort of illustration, nice slides for a talk. My opinion is that archaeology is not in the business of decorating any text, a biblical text or another text. Archaeology has its own voice."
Israel Finkelstein gives you actual evidence, because he's spent his life digging it up and trying to figure out what story it has to tell.
Decorated versions of the bible stories aren't "evidence." Actual evidence has it's own voice, and the story it has to tell contradicts the old testament legends on every major point of history until Hezekiah and/or the Omride dynasty.
Perhaps I should make the last part of my post a little more clear by saying:- "So far I haven't been able to determine his attitude towards Jesus Christ. Do you have any links to offer concerning Israel Finkelstein's attitude towards Jesus Christ?
cheers
ralph.f
nck.."Still I am not prepared to recognize hwa a religious figure."
In your opinion, who would be the 'right' religious figure?
"Perhaps I should make the last part of my post a little more clear by saying:- "So far I haven't been able to determine his attitude towards Jesus Christ. Do you have any links to offer concerning Israel Finkelstein's attitude towards Jesus Christ?"
Jesus christ, Ralph, he's a secular Israeli Jew. What do you think?
BTW, remember how you led with:
"It would seem you ignored the 'movie' segments of the presentations. You make no comment on them."
Well, it seems like you're still ignoring and refusing to comment on what I asked you to respond to. I guess you don't mind being hypocritical about this?
Oh well. Don't bother now. I'll just fill in the blanks myself.
See ya.
11:40
Spelling check pulled a trick.
I meant "recognize him AS a religious figure". A journalist. politico social commentator, carter administration (moral) diplomat without portfolio, the religious part seems to have been trashed over the years.
If your question is about "the beast power". That requires a social study too lenghty. The messianic leader, (king arthur, hitler, napoleon, jesus, david) who combines the King-Priest role is a very ancient principle and seems to ascend only in circumstances that are not existant in the current EU.
It seems there is a rift between the northern (protestant countries) and (catholic south, the olive countries) at present. But this rift is entirely economical. For the religious factor to have a role dire circumstances need to be in place for man to long for the messianic deliverer. But for now there is only need for ordinary political leadership utterly lacking somehow (Or may be there might be leadership since it seems Germany and France are now pushing for a Brexit instead of shedding tears. There power just increased with 25%. So who cares if other nations choose to impover themselves. Now we are at it, in 15 years I can see the celtic warior-priest arise in an impoverished England fighting the rich City State of London. Hey didn't we have that already with Baodicea fighting the Roman Londiniums.
nck
11:40
Since I offer direct primary source information to anyone who is interested and not put off by my regular "This weekend the 10 Nations will be announced" hyperbole.
Primary source (German and French Foreign Office) is in a link in the article.
http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-06-27/the-u-k-doesn-t-have-a-brexit-plan-but-the-eu-does
To be clear: I am not a Vegimite Armstrongite. But I am certainly more interested in "high politics" than in the pundits and dreamers declaring the end of the EU.
nck
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