If you have a rebellious teenager…violent, curses his parents. Teenager says “I don’t care if this is God’s government. I don’t care.” They are just rebellious and violent. Do you just let them run amuck through society? There is justice and judgment and equity in the earth under God’s government…Under God’s government in ancient Israel, they would be put to death. They would have to be. Now, they would be warned…but, you know, if you cursed your father and mother, in Deuteronomy it says the parents threw the first stones. They had to say “This, our child, is rebellious. He will not do what we say,” and the judges condemn the child—the parents throw the first stone.
23 comments:
God doesn't tolerate a double standard, so Dave Quack has chosen the standard by which he will be judged.
Ah yes, Olde Testament Christianity, the ministration of death.
May remind David Pack that false prophets shall be put to death.
Perhaps he should resolve that one first before he calls damnation upon teenagers that don't agree with his eschatology (because they are smarter than their parents).
Dave has no depth of understanding of Jewish history and tradition. They took these rebellious kids to the Levitical priests, and later Rabbis, who were wise, counselled and mentored the rebels, and actually turned significant numbers of them into productive members of the community. Relatively few actually needed the most severe extreme, the stoning, but Armstrongism has always had an affinity for the extremes. Extreme punishment breeds hatred and contempt for government. You want citizens who are driven by the higher aspects of human nature, because that breeds the most sincerity.
So who gets to throw the first stone at "False Prophet" Dave???
Well, Connie, I might be wrong, but I think you should have the honor of throwing the first stone.
I do not feel worthy.
But I will enthusiastically cast the second stone!
Ah... if only it were legal....
No one "needs" to be stoned to death BB. A rebellious teen may also have been a critical thinker who wasn't into cultic behaviors.
They took these rebellious kids to the Levitical priests, and later Rabbis, who were wise, counselled[sic] and mentored the rebels, and actually turned significant numbers of them into productive members of the community. Relatively few actually needed the most severe extreme, the stoning
Where can I read, that shows the actual numbers or percentages involved?
Do you actually think the ancient Jewish records had statistics based on modern math? And, do I have to do all the work for everyone too lazy to research out things they find of interest enough to ask questions? Go read your own Talmud! That was the problem with Armstrongism, nobody did their homework!
BB
Whoa bobby. Nice reaction! I believe he was asking about the concept of"significant numbers turned" and "relatively few " got rocked to sleep. Where in your Talmud might one find this?
Look, if I can read the entire works of Josephus and all of the available materials from the Antenicene Fathers, plus delve into ancient Talmud records, so can everyone else. Let's say you have a relative in Pack's group and they bring up this stoning thing. You can't tell them that BB gave you the Cliff's Notes on it and have them even consider it. Remember, the magic words have always been "Mr. Armstrong says."
If you find this stuff yourself and read it to them, however, it might register a little more authoritatively.
Having said all that, maybe Trading Guy had a point. Mail me a cashiers check for a grand, and I'll do your research.
BB
BB:"Extreme punishment breeds hatred and contempt for government. You want citizens who are driven by the higher aspects of human nature, because that breeds the most sincerity."
Our justice system is based on the Levitical Preisthood, at least according to someone like George Gordon.
DBP
Num 35:30-31 says that you are NOT to ransom a murderer. Jewish commentaries that I've read that in all other "capital" offenses, a fine could be paid instead of execution. So why would a rebellious son and other "minor" crimes be called a capital crimes? It was, according to some Jewish scholars, to instill in the people how serious God viewed some of these crimes. In reality, few people were executed. Lucky for King David. Perhaps it helps to view the OT through the eyes of a Jew who has a better understanding of the culture and language than some of us do.
That is something new BykerB, I do not know that. I thought rabbis are calloused heartless monsters, but if they follow that system, that is cool. I admit I am also lazy when looking things up, next time, it would be be good to link your source to appease my laziness.
The rabbis I've met were really cool people. It would have been great if our WCG ministers had been more like them. A friend of mine once took me to his Chabad, and I felt very comfortable and welcome. They really had fun with the rituals that had not been understood and therefore made into such a drag in WCG. Looking forward to doing Shabbas, dancing with the Torah, there was such passion and it was a beautiful thing.
BB
It never happened in ancient Israel at all. Death penalty was so rare it was ridiculous.
Talmud says you have to warn before arrest and never arrest on first instance.
Also it always takes 2 or 3 witnesses in those days each who did not know each other, not in collusion, and who were eye witnesses from differing angles to the crime before a person could be condemned.
This makes it virtually impossible to implement.
So the implementing of death penalties was nearly impossible.
Parents who beat their children are losers.
A rod of a shepherd is never used to beat the sheep. Never.It is for wolves, bears, lions but never the sheep.
Dave's only depth is in his thick skull. Other than that, nothing.
Thusly, BB states:"If you find this stuff yourself and read it to them, however, it might register a little more authoritatively."
I sure hope you are not trading intellectual superiority for moral superiority, BB. Thanks to you, they found something they thought was worth checking out and just maybe they were asking for better directions from someone who has already been there.
1) There's nothing wrong with encouraging others to do their own research. This is what is recommended in any legitimate form of formal or structured education.
2) If you read a large body of work, and somebody asks you for specific passages several years later, unless you have an eidetic memory (I don't), then you practically have to re-read the entire work in order to find the passage to give a specific answer. If someone were unemployed, they may want or be able to actually do that. Unfortunately, when I've taken the time to re-read in the past, I found out too often later that the asker of the question didn't even believe that Jesus, Moses, David, the Israelites, Paul, or any other figure from the Bible ever existed. A sincere-sounding question had been asked just to mock, and by (you guessed it!) "anonymous". I value my time more highly than that. Also, after years on the blogs, you get to recognize from the tone of the question whether it is legitimate or sincerely asked.
3) I don't think in terms of moral superiority or intellectual superiority. I look for truth, the search for which entails intellect, and the morality or ethics to properly apply the answers as appropriate. There is no need to parse the two, as they are inter-related.
BB
You sound like a COG minister Bob chiding the church for not doing bible study like he does
How is that, 11:18? Armstrongism forbade independent study of just about anything other than internal documents and church-approved resources. I'm encouraging studying widely.
BB
I have not had occasion to study the Talmud, or "shoot the bull" with Rabbis, but when I read from the pages of the Torah, I find a cruel and blood-thirsty god who commanded Israel to wipe out entire civilizations. It seems the leaders of Israel used their God to justify their own cruelty in killing their neighbors and stealing their land. Of course, that is not what we are taught, but it is pretty obvious if you can read the text objectively, and apply a little understanding of human nature.
It is good the Rabbis are now able to shed a softer, kinder light on the ancient horrors depicting the anger of their god, and justifying their personal responsibility for the blood-shed. Sure is convenient when you can control the history book, and then claim it to be the holy word of God.
I do tend to doubt that rebellious children in ancient Israel were mindlessly stoned by their parents. Who knows what is actually true from these one-sided ancient writings? Where is CNN and FOX when you need them?
Gerald, God commanded Israel to wipe out whole civilizations, because they deserved to be wiped out. God is just. God is no respecter of persons, so shortly He will just about wipe out the Anglo-Saxons and all the house of Israel. This 'blood thirsty' God will help people qualify for eternal life with these shock tactics. It is all that works with loonies, crazies, psychos and narcissists. These crazies are 'blood thirsty' and heartless toward their victims themselves, so who are they to complain?
This whole issue is another example of the patriarchal society in which the Bible was written, by men, for men, mostly about men. What woman who had carried her child for nine months within her body would caste a stone? Most mothers are forever hopeful that their delinquent child will grow up to be a responsible adult. And it happens in most cases. For example look at some of those leading ministers children, who despite early rebellion eventually toed the family line and became religious pussies, maybe they would have been better off staying rebellious. And I give you the prodigal son who was loved by his father. And what of GTA himself? What kind of world would we have if any strong minded child was stoned........I fear that world is coming when we will all be replaced by robots or genetically engineered people with part of their brain missing.
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