This was originally posted in 2017 and here we are in 2024 and the idiocy coming out of Dave's mouth continues unabbated. Not one single thing he has said has ever come true.
His claim below is also as ludicrous as his return of Jesus every other day now.
Dave Pack claims:
Isn't it wonderful to know Dave has the answer to EVERYTHING!
Mr. Armstrong literally will have the honor of being the first human being, at the end of the age, to be resurrected from the dead. Now, there have been other people resurrected in different ages, but I’m talking about resurrected from the dead to go on within Christ’s government to a position of enormous authority. I just find that easy to understand.
Isn't it wonderful to know Dave has the answer to EVERYTHING!
42 comments:
By putting Herbie on a pedestal, he puts himself on one as well, since he claims he sat at Herbs feet. How these leaders love to self aggrandise.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
=
"Now faith is the confidence that what we hope is true is actually true and the assurance of that for which we have absolutely no proof."
Dave will learn this in spades at the end of his life and made up ministry. His followers would do well to learn it sooner than later.
With Dave pushing HWA to the top of the list, he may be ready to add that HWA would certainly want his buddy Dave beside him. Or as Buzz Aldrin said, Number two comes after number one! Which has a euphemistic twist...
Dave Pack says "I'm with Him[implying HWA, not Christ]!"
Which kind of reminds me of the DNC, "I'm with Her[HRC]!"
Both scenarios didn't end well!
DBP
"substance" = material
"things hoped for" = wishful thinking
"things not seen" = the unevidenced
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the material of wishful thinking, the evidence of the unevidenced.
In this way, the demarcation between fantasy and reality can be destroyed within one's mind, because "faith" is supposed to be, not just a valid, but even a virtuous substitute when evidence is lacking, regardless of the reason why. When something is false, the evidence for it will always be lacking. But that doesn't stop a believer from playing the "faith" card, and wishing it into reality within the confines of their out-of-touch faculties anyway. Faith is wishful thinking reduced to a method. It is nothing short of madness.
I'm a sabbath observer, a holy day keeper and even I know that's complete rubbish. I'm sure Loma woukd have something to say if Herbert was resurrected first. Pastoral verbal car crash moments make you wonder where their mind dwells. How small minded are these people?
Herbert Armstrong has become a mythical figure. He is "real" in the minds of those who worship him, and bow before his image, but that "reality" is a dream-person who had -- HAD, past tense -- exalted understanding and an incredible, unique mission among all the people on earth. So he said, and so we believed. We believed that the man himself would lead us to the mission's completion. How's that workin' out for ya, people?
Sending all that money in while Herbert was still around seemed to accomplish things, but now . . . ?
Some of us came to realize that the man was a FRAUD, and that all those stories of the "early days," the money struggles and the fights with rival "ministers" were ALL MADE UP. The Autobiography contains statements deriding the reading of books of fiction, within something that is mostly fiction itself.
Herbert worshipers haven't noticed, somehow, that the thing came apart -- and almost 30 years ago!!! Dave and his rivals -- each of them -- claim they've put it back together again. But they don't realize that so many of us DON'T WANT IT ANYMORE!
Herbert was not a demigod! He was a man who took an awful lot of money from me and gave me very little in return. He taught me about a God who would squash me, would make my life miserable, if I didn't send in even more money. A God who cared about little else but How Much Money. And you want me, Dave, to believe drivel like this about him?!?!?
N-O, NO!!!!!
In the mid '50s, HWA selected a date that was in the distant future. This created a space in which he could build a cadre of long term members. When the date failed, he blamed his victims, the members, for not being ready, and he no longer set dates. While many who had been fooled once left, many also stayed, allowing themselves to become reprogrammed.
The problem with a series of the back-to-back failures which we see today, setting and breaking dates repetitively, is that this shortens the time cycle in which a cadre of members can be built and exploited. People are attracted, and a certain percentage leaves when they discover, via failed prophcy, that the person whom they were following 1) did not know what he was talking about, and 2) seriously diminished their quality of life during the time span in which they followed him.
What the current leaders do not realize is that Herbert Armstrong was able to create and sustain a sense of urgency for a fairly long term, building a rock-solid financial base that outshone the other "leaders" of the greater gospel field of his day, and rivalled their very presence.
So many of the aspiring and pretentious heirs to HWA understand that a perpetual state of mental urgency must be created, (the "hook") and they go into overdose mode, machine-gunning their false prophecies indiscriminately, creating a short-term, ever eroding support base. Once the original scam failed, their fates were sealed by a rapidly closing window. Only one course of action was left available for them, and that is to go for the short-term. This has caused their base of new converts to become transient, shrinking the cycle radically, and fostering non-sustainability. There is no longer the "slow and steady wins the race" which we witnessed during the classic golden era of HWA. The very Zeitgeist itself has caused an atmosphere not unlike ADHD.
BB
Which sermon was this?
...a leader with a vehement countenance and dark sayings such as third tithe, 7 feasts, commanded tithing on money, 3 days/nights 72 hours, law reversion, dual prophecy, etc shall arise, and his power will be mighty but not by his own power, and he shall corrupt to an extraordinary degree, and shall prosper, and do his thing, and shall corrupt many saints in a church. And through his policy also he shall cause deceit to abound, and shall magnify himself in his heart by calling himself Christ's apostle, and during a time of peace shall corrupt many.........a paraphrase - Daniel 8:23-25.
exRestoredCOG
I honestly don't remember now. I was given access to the entire membership sermon/literature inventory at that time and I copied all kinds of stuff. I sent you an email.
Who gets to be LAST to be resurrected??
Abel, Abraham and the Joseph of Genesis (among others) have been waiting in the grave a lot longer than Herbert Armstrong.
Does God operate on a FIFO system?
Then again, will RCG members come up before members of PCG, COGWA, etc.?
And ultimately - if they're all going to live forever - will it really make any difference?
Byker Bob - that was so well put - creating the state of being in a perpetual crisis. It's so similar to what is happening today with our governments. The sad thing is that people weren't taught to love Righteousness and Hate evil. That is really what they should have been doing instead of going after a fear-based gospel, or a health, wealth and prosperity gospel. Creating a perpetual state of crisis made everyone fearful and anxious. It was awful. We have to want to know God because we appreciate His Holiness - goodness, purity, kindness, truthfulness, etc. We can't follow God because we're scared of what can happen if we don't. That kind of compliance is no good. Many have been hurt because they have been lied to, deceived and ripped off. People who lie and stead from you are not of God. They may know some things about the bible but that is not enough. We have to keep all the commandments which includes not lying to people and ripping them off. If you break one commandment you might as well have broken the lot. It's time to make a choice, though and recover from all this and learn from it. Don't let anyone bully you anymore and don't mistreat others they way you have been treated. Christ said no one was to "lord it over anyone" We have to hang onto that. Peace to you all.
That's it 1:27, that is what Dave Pack is doing.
I just got off the phone with a former RCG member who shared just how much it costs to be in RCG and the lengths gone to to extort money from those who have it.
Let me just say that Dave Pack is the lowest form of Shit Human on the planet and his enablers aren't far behind. May Dave eventually and sooner than later, be damned.
Thanks for listening. I feel better......
Most people will pray for their lusts, selfishness and greed. They want God to conform to their dictates. They pray the gimmies: God, I want you to gimmie this, and give me that. Do it now! That's wrong. God made us, and He knows best what's good for us to have and do. But we don't. He never denies us anything that's good for us to have and do, but only those things that will harm and hurt us. He tells us in the Bible that we should pray according to God's will, what He has promised to give us. Read the Book titled the Holy Bible to learn what God has promised to do for us, and to give us, if we obey God by keeping His commandments.
Glad you were friendly & helpful Dennis to that ex RCG person, as they feel life again!
For a man to claim such a thing; is both the height of arrogance, and the height of foolishness.
BB ''In the mid '50s, HWA selected a date that was in the distant future. This created a space in which he could build a cadre of long term members. When the date failed, he blamed his victims, the members, for not being ready, and he no longer set dates>>
Armstrong set a date for late 83/early 84 for the war in heaven and fleeing to Petra - and as worldwide church theology requires Jesus’s Second Coming at the end of the three and a half year great tribulation. This means Armstrong was setting a date for Jesus's return to be in the same decade Armstrong wrote the article I refer to. See the January 1984 issue of the Good News magazine in which Armstrong wrote an article titled: ‘’What lies Ahead Now’’ .
BB said ''So many of the aspiring and pretentious heirs to HWA understand that a perpetual state of mental urgency must be created, (the "hook") and they go into overdose mode, machine-gunning their false prophecies indiscriminately.''
I agree with what you had to say BB `. We know Armstrong had his false prophecies from the beginning ie 1930's indeed the very first year of operation but he worked up a propaganda to explain away these many false prophecies. He was a smart propagandist and manipulator and he successfully extracted money and basically achieved his objectives for the better part of 50 years. Then I have started to wonder the fact that he was so successful just what other factors/forces might explain his successes?
Thanks for listening. I feel better......>> good to state ones feelings, and as the RCG numbers decline it becomes more incumbent to be able to extract money from the remaining believers because of the simple reason the system will fold. Hence, they have to hone their extraction skills using God's name in the process!
Does that apply in modern days to the date setting of 2030 for Jesus second coming "Byker Bob"???
Interestingly "byker" is in urban slang an insult.
Is that Dennis?
Yes Dennis. The scheme is to extort as much as they can to the point of bankruptcy if you are not careful. If you are brainwashed and have substance, be prepared to lose it all for fear of "losing salvation" if you dont sell all.
HWA appears to have never really reconciled between himself and his own children. I know Ted said somewhat off the cuff that Dorothy had struggled most of her life and went thru other religions seeking peace and had spoke to him about it not long before her passing. Even Ted & I don't condon a lot of his behaviors, probably had issues most of his life from having such am out of control parent as HWA. I know HWA's grand son said that he really never knew of HWA being truly close to anyone & did not know if he every really loved anyone other than himself.
.
Anonymous said...
Is that Dennis?
=================
Absolutely. Two hours of listening to the most egregious con that Dave and the fools that follow and work his evil for them. Sometimes, or perhaps often, we find ourselves talking about Dave's miserable excuse for ministry, which it is far from, when we need to see it simply come to end. While the man may have anything from genuine mental illness to the classic malignant narcissism that so often rises to the top of religious fuckery, i.e. a snake in a suit, he's far from merely entertaining.
I have offered to "debate" Dave three times on his turf and the fool wouldn't dare. I'd turn his fine mind to crap and his fake work of god to dust in front of his brain-dead groupies.
I've read that the prophets of Israel used to mock the gods not theirs as "shit gods". Thus the term seems Biblically appropriate for Dave. He is a shit human and shit Apostle. He is not mere entertainment. He's a dangerous fool, Apostle over nothing and not much but dangerous to anyone who is foolish enough to get close to him or his Rotten Church of God.
I believe I don't like the man for what I know him as and what he has done and continues to do to good people drawn to something he sells as beautiful and hope filled but is nothing but thorns of heartache and misery where one gives up their personal authenticity and yields to Dave's bullshit "authority". Anyone who sees himself spoken of in the scriptures is simply mad and on the cusp of mental illness in a clown suit.
As well, I do blame "The Book" for giving him and those like him, the permission and practices, as well as the less than real promises, that can be used to perpetuate Dave's kind of religious fraud on sincere people seeking hope and living on a screwed-up planet full of religious grifters like Dave.
Actually I'm not sure if I do feel better...
PS Debate includes Confront. Shame on his fake minister enablers for not having the character or guts to do so. They have to know we're right about Dave. They have to.....
Tonto, Thursday, May 23, 2024 at 1:10:00 PM PDT, said:
"...Who gets to be LAST to be resurrected??"
******
Nice question, Tonto. People talk about the "Last Great Day," and we may wonder: "What is the First Great Day?"
Hence, I refer to the 8th day, God's seventh annual Festival, as the Great Last Day. Jesus did speak of a Great day, and He also spoke of a Last day (John 7:37).
Now, Dave Pack-of lies, writes: "...Mr. Armstrong literally will have the honor of being the first human being, at the end of the age, to be resurrected from the dead. Now, there have been other people resurrected in different ages, but I’m talking about resurrected from the dead to go on within Christ’s government to a position of enormous authority..."
******
It is obvious that Dave has only the first resurrection (Rev 5:6) in mind there.
I Thess 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
If HWA, now dead, is resurrected he would be resurrected at the same time as part of a group of former sealed firstfruits who had also died. HWA will not be #1. Wasn't it Satan who wanted to be #1? Who thinks like that (James 4:5)?
The there is an impact upon another group of sealed firstfruits, the, still alive. Then what? Those live ones, and the ones, formerly dead, rise together and go to clouds.
:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
And then what? Bring Jesus down to earth? Jesus returns to Heaven? Well, Doug Winnail's Mickey Mouse millennium begins if Jesus returns to earth, but thankfully, we have enough of Mickey Mouse's kingdom on earth today, but boy! Is it expensive to visit?
Good news?
:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
Yes, we have comfort with the words of the Apostle Paul, but not so with the words of Dave Pack, who preaches all about SELF, himSELF!
But Tonto asked: "...Who gets to be LAST to be resurrected??"
There are only 2 resurrections. There are not 3 resurrections, as a Frank Nelte, continues to teach, and many still believe. There are only two, and the second one is the LAST resurrection:
Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished..."
Will billions of dead human beings at the time of the second resurrection, be resurrected to live again as part of the LAST to be resurrected?? And that is good news, too!
And if HWA is not part of the 144,000 firstfruits existing at the time of that first resurrection, then he will be part of these billions as LAST to be resurrected, and...
Time will tell...
John
Friday, May 24, 2024 at 5:31:00 AM
There are only 2 resurrections. There are not 3 resurrections, as a Frank Nelte, continues to teach, and many still believe. There are only two, and the second one is the LAST resurrection
>>>
''Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell’’ - or in YLT
‘’And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in Gehenna’’ (Matthew 10 verse 28).
Important in this verse is the teaching of judgment where “body and soul are destroyed” - it therefore appears to presuppose a resurrection of the wicked as well as of the righteous?
That is to say, it suggests a certain resurrection of the flesh - because if not raised in the flesh it would not be possible for that ‘body’ to be killed in ‘Gehenna’. Different of course to the first resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 wherein corruptible bodies are raised to become incorruptible/spiritual bodies - which occurs at another time called the ‘last trump’ in this same chapter.
But I've wondered of in the second resurrection which appears to be in the flesh - those who are found worthy would not stay that way? So is there yet a resurrection in the spirit for them.
It is kind of confusing so all i can do is wonder.
????
Hello Herbert. Depart from me for I never knew you.
Well, 10:57, you should always suspect the motives of anyone who is so poorly spiritually developed that they would attempt to defy Jesus, and dare to book a personal appearance for him on a given date.
As for the urban slang insults, I follow a different urban example. I call those slang things to myself, like Cracker, Casper, Honky, Surfer, etc. Can't really get into "Peckerwood", but that's just a matter of personal taste! Got any other suggestions, numbnuts?
BB
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection......Rev 20:6.
Israel was holiness unto the Lord, and the firstfruits of his increase......Jer 2:3
It may be those "that hath part" are resurrected to spirit life to reign with Christ, but the other part (?) of the first resurrection may be those remaining of the 12 tribes of Israel resurrected back to physical life. In the same first resurrection some are to spirit life but most back to physical life, and the resurrection is of all the "firstfruits" including Christ's followers (of any ethnicity).
The second resurrection after the 1000 years is of everyone else to physical life.
"Resurrected..to a position of enormous authority."
Dave is here pushing the ACOG position. America's declaration of independence states that the role of government is to protect its citizens rights. In ACOG-land, this is inverted. So there's constant war between the ministers and its members since the ministers are trying to usurp their members rights. It's amounts to church leaders believing in bully morality rather than the narrow gate. Err, and don't get me started on the ministers corresponding member "dirt files."
Those in the first resurrection will have enormous responsibility rather than enormous authority.
John @ 5:31:00 AM PDT
There are three resurrections. The first when Christ returns The beneficiaries are those called now and in the past who keep God's commandments. The second is for all the uncalled since Adam. The third is for those called and reject God's way of life who will perish in the Lake of Fire (eternal sleep, not suffering in hell for all eternity).
If there is no third resurrection, then the called and unrepentant ones would never know the truth of God regarding their choice and the meaning of the second death. For example, if someone called now but reject God's truth/way and die. He will be resurrected in the third resurrection to know of his choice. The saved and unsaved will know of God's mercy and justice.
Does this make God cruel and unfair? Which is better? Suffering in hell forever or sleep forever as if one has never existed.
I thought that the Two Witnesses will be the first to be resurrected. So how does Dave Pack come to completely ignore that part of Revelation?
Not to mention that the resurrections will most likely be in date order, according to when a firstfruit believer died, not according to the idolatry of Dave Pack.
I would not be surprised if Dave Pack himself is not even in the first resurrection.
Anon, Friday, May 24, 2024 at 6:20:00 AM PDT, said:
"...Friday, May 24, 2024 at 5:31:00 AM
There are only 2 resurrections. There are not 3 resurrections, as a Frank Nelte, continues to teach, and many still believe. There are only two, and the second one is the LAST resurrection
>>>
...Important in this verse (Matthew 10 verse 28) is the teaching of judgment where “body and soul are destroyed” - it therefore appears to presuppose a resurrection of the wicked as well as of the righteous?
That is to say, it suggests a certain resurrection of the flesh - because if not raised in the flesh it would not be possible for that ‘body’ to be killed in ‘Gehenna’...
...But I've wondered of in the second resurrection which appears to be in the flesh - those who are found worthy would not stay that way? So is there yet a resurrection in the spirit for them.
It is kind of confusing so all i can do is wonder.
******
Yes, it may all be kind of confusing, but I will share the following thoughts:
Someone/things are going to experience the second death; however, for human beings: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Heb 9:27
That second resurrection, part of that Heb 9:27 judgment, will include former human beings from Adam and Eve onwards (excluding those who came up in the first resurrection in the form of spirit as that "Bride" to follow the Lamb wherever He goes), as well as Satan and his angels.
Both groups are part of the second resurrection:
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2
Something that may help you some, or not, is the following, regarding that Dan 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some [“sheep” of Matthew 25:31-34; Titus 1:2; Psalm 22:26, etc.] to everlasting life, and some [“goats” of Matthew 25:41, 46; 2 Peter 2:12; Isaiah 14:19-20; Isaiah 27:1; Ezekiel 28:19, etc.] to shame [and] everlasting contempt."
Guess who will experience that shame and everlasting contempt?
That will occur some time after that second resurrection with something called the “second death,” and there is no coming back from the second death, which will be everlasting, but you may research many other scriptures related to this subject,
but/and time will tell...
John
Anon, Saturday, May 25, 2024 at 12:43:00 AM PDT, said:
"...There are three resurrections...The third is for those called and reject God's way of life who will perish in the Lake of Fire (eternal sleep, not suffering in hell for all eternity).
...For example, if someone called now but reject God's truth/way and die. He will be resurrected in the third resurrection to know of his choice. The saved and unsaved will know of God's mercy and justice.
Does this make God cruel and unfair? Which is better? Suffering in hell forever or sleep forever as if one has never existed.
******
But, there is no need for any 3rd resurrection. Think about it.
So far, every human being, except Jesus Christ, sins. What are the wages for the sins in our lives?
"For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
What are the wages? Death! Hence, wages paid in full!
What's the big deal? Who are you going to bring up in that made-up 3rd resurrection? The wages were paid, or is somebody lying here?
Are you into double jeopardy? Would you like to come up in a 3rd resurrection after your wages were paid? It's ridiculous.
God promised eternal life: "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" Titus 1:2
What else has been prepared for from the foundation of the world?
Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
Again, why a 3rd resurrection? Are you striving to earn your salvation? Wasn't it enough to have mercy and grace, because of Christ our Passover sacrificed for us? The wages were paid, or don't you believe that?
And b/c you believe in some made-up 3rd resurrection you go on to say: "...Which is better? Suffering in hell forever or sleep forever as if one has never existed..."
Nobody is going to be suffering forever. God is love.
Here is the answer, which shows us God's mercy to vile, evil, principalities: Satan and his angels. Yes, the following will have been prepared for Satan and his angels.
"All they that know thee [[speaking of Satan!!!!]] among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more." Ezekiel 28:19
God had provided a sacrifice for human beings; God gave His Son; His Son gave His life, but there was/is no sacrifice for Satan and his angels, and there is no 3rd resurrection, but...
Time will tell...
John
What if Ms. Manon Chaisson is resurrected even before HWA or DCP?
If I'm resurrected, and see Dave Pack or (insert your ACOG guru here) and HWA walking, talking, and laughing with Jesus, my prayer is going to be, "Father, may I please be excused to go to the Lake of Fire?"
12:43,
If you are resurrected and see Messrs Dave Pack or any ACOG guru and HWA walking, talking and laughing with Jesus, you would be joining them too. Why? Surely, you must remember the lesson of the Prodigal Son? Fret not. Those resurrected to life everlasting are God beings - perfect, sinless, full of mercy and love. From whence come such ungodly attitude to want to go to the Lake of Fire?
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