Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Many Church of God Ministers and Members Ask...Critical What?????
Thousands sit and wonder...
(or should)
"That doesn't sound right to me"
Critical Thinking-Does It Matter?
31 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Thank you Dennis for pointing out this video on critical thinking. After watching it, I concluded that God exists, the bible is His inspired word, and that Dennis has fallen away and is trying to take others with him. Great video.
Ponzi schemes? Yep, that is the only way the brown-nosers of HWA know how to start or run a church. Top-down rule. Find people who believe in God, then convince them you speak for one, you can then ride on top till you die or someone else does. Bernie says, "Don't answer their questions, Ask your own questions that you alone can answer!" Dave Pack is such a devious sly bastard!
" ...and that Dennis has fallen away and is trying to take others with him."
The context was meant to encourage any RCG/PCG types to think better about what they are exposed to weekly by their one man leadership and views and perhaps to realize the way the are being exposed to scripture and conclusions drawn might be suspect.
In the view of many, the Bible is not critical thinking friendly.
"The fool has said in his heart there is no God." (Label folk fools for questioning or accepting weak proof)
"The wisdom of man is foolishness to God." (Make fun of learning from experience)
"Know this, in the last days scoffers will come saying.."where is the promise of his coming?" (which seems a reasonable response the failures of "soon", "shortly" and "quickly" noticed by those who were told time was short and not to marry etc.)
"There is a way which that SEEMS right to a man, but the ways thereof end in death." (You aren't able to decide what is correct by examination)
Promises are made that are not possible to keep and don't actually work as advertised but noticing this is dangerous to one's acceptance in the group.
" Prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
This simply is not how it works in reality and manuipulative
"Whatever you ask in my name I will give it you." (That would actually be a disaster and comes with many apologetics and conditions when taken too literally. "You ask amiss..." etc)
" 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.) (Another formula for disappointment and disaster)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"
(In reality this polyanna view of power allows political and religious leaders to abuse you. Paul or an editor probably asked this be put in Romans to support the Romans and kiss up to power)
Faith being the stuff of what we hope is so and the evidence of that for which we have none, is not a formula for progress in reality. Facts eventually trump faith and is an ever shrinking concept as critical thinking and observations are practiced and the rantings of delusional thinking become obviously wrong over time.
Many people in these abusive groups have had their minds imprisoned with certain lies. For instance, if you leave our group, you lose your eternal life. This is untrue since a Christian is one who follows Christ rather than one who warms a seat in a certain church.
Christ on several occasions criticised his disciples for not thinking, and showed the greatest respect for reason. The bible does say to 'prove all things,' and that wisdom is more precious than jewels. But it's true that these churches have a anti think culture. As I've mentioned before, Herbie copied the protestants churches (with slight changes) rather than using the bible as the reference point. Hence the answer to questions regarding differences between the bible and what's being taught is 'don't think.'
why do we put so much emphasis on brain activity when that organ has proven without ambiguity to rot after we die??? who do we think we are? think critically in our short life time, then we die, we watch those we care about die...
the godless are truly the most hopeless and pathetic; your life is in vain, and you know there is only one end for you, so what is the point of your struggle???
does it make you feel you are fulfilling the notion of survival of the fittest? you will only be living for so long regardless of your vain point of view, so what is your point???
Anon wrote: "the godless are truly the most hopeless and pathetic; your life is in vain, and you know there is only one end for you, so what is the point of your struggle???"
Well, since you ask. Our primate species has managed to reach a level of knowledge that includes the knowledge that we are going to die. (When we didn't possess that knowledge we merely went around our daily business like every other animal, picking berries, capturing prey and only concerned with our immediate situation.)
Now having acknowledged such game-changing knowledge, we all have the need to find something to get our minds off of it. All of us, mind you. Those who don't accept ancient fables may find some higher meaning in rational discussion and thinking critically. Or in the sublimity of music or other art. Or in helping others during our short time here. Or in rooting for technology to save us (in time) from our impending death.
On the other hand, those who do accept ancient fables as being true place their hopes in that as an afterlife, which does not make those hopes true by any means, but it helps them get through this life.
If we both had a terminal illness and I asked Santa for a magical pill on Christmas to save me, and you said Santa was nonsense and attempted to rationally prove it to me, I might use your argument, saying that if you don't believe in Santa then you have no hope, and your life is pathetic, you're screwed, so why bother to try to prove it to me. Would that convince you to believe in Santa, or even stop pointing out that Santa is a myth? Didn't think so...
I was raised without the lies of religion by secular parents.
Up until I was 30 I enjoyed my happy freedom of dancing, dames and dice.
From 30 to 55 I was a goon in the Armstrong ripoff plan. I taught the madness to my fellow fools in captivity. I was good at it. The WCG gave me what I ignorantly wanted and I paid for it.
For the past 22 years I studied cults, religion and atheism (the lack of belief in man's gods). I've had my freedom for these past years. FREEDOM!! I've learned that the non-existent god and the invisible one look just alike.
I quote a line from an old film: "Where I come from, nobody knows, where I am going, everybody goes".
The point is living a free life now with the time left. Armstrongism was just a bad road on a long trip in a strange land.
"I turned to speak to God About the world's dispair; But to make matters worse I found God wasn't there."
Anon said: "the godless are truly the most hopeless and pathetic; your life is in vain, and you know there is only one end for you, so what is the point of your struggle???
does it make you feel you are fulfilling the notion of survival of the fittest? you will only be living for so long regardless of your vain point of view, so what is your point???"
I'm actually a very kind, compassionate, a bit too tender hearted at times, intelligent, introspective and thinking human being. Hopeless and pathetic? Not so much.
My life is just fine thank you and I am grateful to be living at such a time as this where knowledge truly is increased. The scripture makes that always sound like a bad thing as we know and a sign of the end. I take it as a sign of new beginnings and appreciate the increased knowledge intelligent humans seek and find.
I don't mind being stardust and returning to it. I don't mind being the current end product of human evolution and a hairless conscious hominid. I'd like to think I am consciousness trapped for now in a limited five sensed carbon based wetsuit, but we'll have to see.
These are my experiences with the application of scripture, taken at face value, over decades and applying and seeing them applied by sincere people . Much could be noted and many examples given
why do we put so much emphasis on brain activity when that organ has proven without ambiguity to rot after we die???
Well, there it is -- for some people, without ambiguity it is apparent that their brain has rotted while they are still alive.
One of the very BIG mistakes people make is to assume that Armstrongism traps people because they don't have 'critical' or more accurately 'analytical' thinking (reasoning), without realizing that it is the problem: Herbert Armstrong had high analytical reasoning (with a high flow of ideas and virtually no inductive reasoning). What he had as his philosophy was quite the analytical reasoning framework where the doctrines were internally logically consistent. In fact, the logical basis was both tight and sound.
And having said that, and before you logicians protest, you should consider one fact: It was REALLY logical and impervious to critical and analytical deconstruction as long as -- and this is the really IMPORTANT part -- you ignore the initial premises: That the Bible is the foundation of all knowledge (wrong!), that British Israelism is the key to understanding the Bible (wrong!) and that Herbert Armstrong was an apostle sent by God to present this to mankind as God's Gift to us (need we say it? WRONG! WRONG! and WRONG!). Once you buy into the initial premises, you are doomed because from that point on, there is no logical way out of the conundrums of the Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia. If you are honest and accept the initial conditions of the premises, you MUST accept EVERYTHING that Herbert Armstrong says, even though he was quite daft, totally wrong and a kook. You CAN'T accept anything else.
So forget critical thinking. Forget analytical thinking. They won't help you.
What will help you is inductive reasoning and reasoning by analogy (which, if you use it, can either set you on the right path or will help you see if you are wrong, it will be obvious you are wrong), using research to determine if the outside world matches the internal construct that was built (it doesn't).
Johnathan C. Smith in "Pseudoscience and Extaordinary Claims of the Paranormal" pointed out that you can have a totally internally consistent logical construct but somewhere along the line, that's no help because you have to check the real world.
That is why science is such an enemy of Armstrongism: It relies on observation, and not just observation, but consistent reproducible observation. Armstrongism is a major fail on all fronts when you apply observation in the real world.
For example: The Land Sabbath. If farmers keep it, they will be blessed, right? The Bible says so. Here's the problem -- WCG farmers tried it and either had to borrow money, go broke and / or lose the farm. It didn't work in the real world. I asked Rich Odegard, who is both the pastor of the New Life Church of God, Seventh Day (he keeps the Sabbath and the holydays, but is not Armstrongist) and was the Pierce County Jail Chaplain for over 16 years -- having more understanding and knowledge than ANY Armstrongist minister or leader I know -- about this and he replied that for Scripture there were many instances where it is a matter of a limited time and a limited place. If you accept that premise, there would have been a time when the land Sabbath did work for farmers, but only in the land of Israel and during the period of the Old Testament. Or you can believe that the Bible was never true and the result is the same: It doesn't work, and since it doesn't work, it simply isn't true -- and anything else related to it, in the same manner -- well, they aren't true either because they aren't workable. All of you keeping third tithe should reflect on that and have lowered expectations about the physical blessings you are counting on.
"Why do we put so much emphasis on brain activity when that organ has proven without abiguity to rot after we die?"
Well, gee anonymous, I don't know. Could it be that part of the HWAcaca was "the spirit of man" which was posited as differentiating mankind from the animals, the area which preserves our character, personality, and experiences, and supposedly sleeps following death, awaiting the rez? This was Herpes' primitive understanding of the soul or of the akashic records, so must be included in our post-mortem dissection and autopsy of Armstrongism, just like all of the other pseudo doctrines.
Anonymous said... 11.10PM The point is eternal life. That's why the struggle and hardship. The reward is worth it. Life must be hard on those who do not have this hope.
You can waste your entire life living in the past or future denying the only thing you really have and that being the present moments. Life is a "struggle and hardship" to the degree we don't accept things as they are graciously and with a humble appreciation for even being alive in the first place to experience life.
"Some people are so heavenly (Or Kingdom) bound, they are of no earthly good."
"You can waste your entire life living in the past or future..."
One of the saddest things I've witnessed is a person living in an imaginary future, where his bitterness demands that he refuse to speak with his parents. He thinks all will be better, "in the Kingdom"!
As in this example, 'Christian' conclusions can be rather delusional and hurtful. Years ago, I spoke with the parents, who displayed much more Christian love than the "love" displayed by the son who cut them off.
It was surprising the speaker didn't have a copy of the American Heritage Dictionary. The word gullible is on page 781 "easily deceived or duped". Then at the end he mocks the person looking for that word which gained currency in the 19th century.
A sample sentence might be "I was gullible to listen to the World Tomorrow broadcasts in the 1960s". I was also poorly-educated in a Vt mill town.
Thousands of people in the 1840s were gullible enough the act on the BS William Miller was throwing around that the alleged Christ would show up in 1844. Miller was the first con-man of note of this madness in the early 1880s. Ellen G. (Harmon) White was a later prophetess who gave it a new twist and was a co-founder of the Seventh-Day Adventists which has made tons of money from the millions of gullible suckers of earlier times. (The speaker had a number of confusions in his presentation concerning Miller and the Whites).
For the few readers in this forum, get a copy of "The Disappointed; Millerism and Millinarianism in the Nineteenth Century" by Ronald L. Numbers and Jonathan M. Butler. (1993) There are eleven chapters (with end notes) in the book along with 2 appendices.
Years ago I visited the Miller homestead in upstate eastern New York. Miller himself was not a Sabbath-keeper. He died a broken man in 1849.
It was surprising the speaker didn't have a copy of the American Heritage Dictionary. The word gullible is on page 781 "easily deceived or duped". Then at the end he mocks the person looking for that word which gained currency in the 19th century.
A sample sentence might be "I was gullible to listen to the World Tomorrow broadcasts in the 1960s". I was also poorly-educated in a Vt mill town.
Thousands of people in the 1840s were gullible enough the act on the BS William Miller was throwing around that the alleged Christ would show up in 1844. Miller was the first con-man of note of this madness in the early 1880s. Ellen G. (Harmon) White was a later prophetess who gave it a new twist and was a co-founder of the Seventh-Day Adventists which has made tons of money from the millions of gullible suckers of earlier times. (The speaker had a number of confusions in his presentation concerning Miller and the Whites).
For the few readers in this forum, get a copy of "The Disappointed; Millerism and Millinarianism in the Nineteenth Century" by Ronald L. Numbers and Jonathan M. Butler. (1993) There are eleven chapters (with end notes) in the book along with 2 appendices.
Years ago I visited the Miller homestead in upstate eastern New York. Miller himself was not a Sabbath-keeper. He died a broken man in 1849.
This is an extremely helpful, intelligent topic followed up by a number of thoughtful and logical comments.
I don't know if there may be some spiritual aspect of us that lives on after we die, but I am rather dubious. Whatever the case may be, it makes no sense to worry so much about a possible future life that we waste the one we have in the here and now. You already expressed this same idea, and I am agreeing.
Religion and belief in the infallibility of the bible distract us and rob us of our freedom to operate in reality and contribute to our society and the evolution of mankind.
Dennis says " Life is a "struggle and hardship" to the degree we don't accept things as they are graciously and..." Ha, a, ha. You should meet my sister and brother in law. Ha, ha, ha. This is the typical (former)/minister advice. They are treated with kids cloves and treated like semi royalty in their churches. They think this ivory tower is the real world. As all ordinary members know, it is not.
Dennis modestly admits, "I don't mind being stardust and returning to it."
Very biblical attitude, Dennis. Extremely biblical.
The ancient Israelites lacked Dennis's knowledge that earth-dust derives from stardust, but they knew what happens to corpses. It's a familiar line in the creation myth. Their god, in cursing Adam for disobedience, declared, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
Furthermore, what happens to us is just like what happens to other animals, and if humans are different in having a spirit, the knowledge of its fate after death is entirely beyond us. Notice the verses in Ecclesiastes beginning with 3:19: "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts. In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? 22) Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?"
This passage provides me a framework for meaningful living the way the Parable of the Talents defines the life of the Commenter Who Must Not Be Named, whose internet handle can be paraphrased as SwappingDude. With the help of Dennis's reference to our origin in stardust, it also points me to reincarnation--but only in the purely chemical sense. I may have a spirit, but if so who shall bring me to see what shall be after me?
Nobody, as far as I can see.
Fortunately I have been brought to see what shall happen to my molecules after me. Like any living thing, I can be seen as a means of assembling and concentrating a quantity of organic material so that it can nourish other forms of life. I worked on a crew moving cemeteries out of a basin to be flooded by a dam. I saw how the molecules that make up bodily tissues are broken down by molds and bacteria and reassembled. As happened with those people I dug up, my molecules will turn into dust--well, dirt at least--a dark brown layer of compost in the bottom of the grave. If a tree sends its roots down there, those new molecules will get sucked out of the compost, broken down again, and reassembled as wood, bark, and leaves for the tree. If caterpillars eat the leaves and squirrels and birds eat the seeds, those creatures in their turn will get consumed or decomposed. And on and on and on.
At death my mind will dissipate, but right now it can conceive the whole sequence, from stardust through me to a whole teeming multitude of future living things that will one after the other incorporate the stardust I consist of now. The sequence is shorter than eternity, but still it is long enough to strike me with awe and gratitude that I can be a part of it, if only for (on the cosmic scale) the briefest instant.
On the whole, much more satisfactory than an eternity devoted to singing praises out of the Purple Hymnal.
It's much more than just that. Fundamentalists try to monopolize "life after death" for everybody, and only grant those that obey them as the ones deemed worthy to have it. Jihads, holy wars, and utopian dictators are experts in creating hell on earth. Now why would anybody entrust them with heaven and eternal life when all they can do down here is the opposite?(just a rhetorical ?).
Michael said: "..I asked Santa for a magical pill on Christmas to save me,.."
...around the 30sec mark, you can almost see the irony momentarily dawn on his face.
we speak as if we will live for ever; yet ultimately we can either obey God and live forever, or think for ourselves, as if we were born knowing everything; having lived for nothing, and dying as if you never lived...
such a life is personally vain: you can be as smart as you wanna be, but you cannot prevent yours or anyone elses inevitable death, and you scarcely have the power to extend your own lives past 75 or 80 years,
yet you think so highly of yourselves and your points of view, not admitting that your critical thinking is limited by ignorance, and by the use of an organ that ultimately turns to dust...
"...you can be as smart as you wanna be, but you cannot prevent yours or anyone elses inevitable death, and you scarcely have the power to extend your own lives past 75 or 80 years,.."
But it seems we are getting closer to the above. Maybe the learning process is a eternal one.
Retired Prof said: "The sequence is shorter than eternity, but still it is long enough to strike me with awe and gratitude that I can be a part of it, if only for (on the cosmic scale) the briefest instant."
8.36 PM. Yours is the typical 'Christian' viewpoint. You create a false dichotomy between obeying God and 'thinking for ourselves'/'critical thinking.' These are not at odds with one another, but rather complement each other. 'Obeying God rather than man' requires thinking for ourselves and critical thinking. This false dichotomy is a lie so that the power crazed ministers and their bootlickers can rob members of all their God given rights. This is of Satan, not of God.
DBP wrote: "Michael said: "..I asked Santa for a magical pill on Christmas to save me,.." ...around the 30sec mark, you can almost see the irony momentarily dawn on his face."
Yes;) the irony is apparent, although dunno if Hovind himself actually caught it. "And Santa doesn't answer cuz he's not... really... there" :-)
Y'know for those who pray [to any god], I would think it would be an imperative exercise to do the following for about a month: Write a list in two columns, about things you specifically prayed about, in one column, those that occur as prayed, and in another column, those that don't come true as requested.
At the end of the month, do a tally and ask if the way the "answers" or "non-answers" to your prayers turned out are in any way distinguishable from pure chance.
One of the rules being, that you must not use any rationalizations such as "well He answered in a different way, or the answer was no, or I shouldn't have been asking for it anyway, or He gave me something better". Nothing like that, just a straight honest assessment. Did my prayers get answered as I asked, or not? Or did things turn out about the same as if there were no God, and I was just talking to the wall?
A person who prays regularly but hasn't done something like this doesn't have any grounds for saying "God answers prayers".
Just as no one ever thinks they don't belong to the "true church" , everyone thinks they think critically or they'd not believe what they believe. Our emotional , fear, guilt and shame issues get entangled in the mix taking us off in many different directions and wherever we end up we probably all believe we got there thinking things through logically and critically. We also go into looking for the truth of this or that with a lot of pre-existant confirmation biases.
I suspect we all are doing the best we can for the perspectives and issues we have in life.
However, I don't buy the idea that we have to give our minds over to the unseen and unknowable because our receiver will turn to dust someday. If there is really nothing Biblically promised after death , as I suspect , none of us will get to say "I told you so" anyway. lol
"We probably all believe we got there thinking things through logically and critically."
I suspect that is true. Yet each of us has probably experienced great wonderment at the conclusions of others, and how those conclusions were reached. In fact, on some occasions, those conclusions are even made into straw men, with the consequence that any persuasion or education away from them loses relevance and misses the mark. But, that's what can happen in blog debates. It becomes like the election season TV ads for candidates and initiatives. As in "Wow! Where did that even come from?"
There is another completely different dynamic that often comes into play in a court of law. And that is, how much did a person understand? Did he or she make a fully informed decision? Many of us who take a counter position to Armstrongism, as an example, believe that Armstrong acolytes were spoon fed partial, illegitimate, and manipulative information leading to their beliefs and opinions, and that fear is part of that equation as well. We don't believe, in other words, that these acolytes made fully informed decisions. Their teachers sole source, and do not allow independent research or second opinions. But, these acolytes have been made to believe that they were not only led by logical and critical thinking, but that their minds were opened to "truths" that make them part of an elite group that "the world" cannot comprehend. Some, even years after they have left, want to continue believing that they are part of a special group, or have somehow been enlightened in ways that others have not.
The best caveat is caveat emptor. Never stop testing. Never assume that you have all the answers. Realize that every answer is not the final destination. Every answer spawns a new set of questions. Life is a process, a journey. These principles or paradigms do not become suspended just because a person has become immersed in a particular philosophy or way of life. Don't become hostage to, or codependent with a guru or the prefab package he presents. Remember personal responsibility and informed consent. Hold yourself and others accountable.
well, you all cite your dead men, and i will cite mines; the words i have cited have endured for thousands of years...who will be citing your sources 100 years from now???
Anon 6:06 AM, January 12, 2017, quoted the thoughts of others writing the following:
****** I quote a line from an old film: "Where I come from, nobody knows, where I am going, everybody goes".
AND
"I turned to speak to God About the world's dispair; But to make matters worse I found God wasn't there."
--Robert Frost
Jim ******
Those 2 quotes brought to my mind the words of two other ancient individuals, which are for Jim, Robert Frost and whoever gave out that film quote...for all of us:
Isaiah 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. :5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. :6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. :7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. :8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. :9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we ARE ALL THY PEOPLE.
And when are we all to become "thy people?" Quoting that other individual:
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is WITH MEN, and he will dwell with THEM, and THEY SHALL BE HIS PEOPLE, and God himself shall be with THEM, and be THEIR God.
:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from THEIR eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
But there appear to be a couple of catches before people will exist in that time and express those thoughts. There is going to have to be a resurrection. Will that resurrection happen and people actually come to think about and express those thoughts?
I am confident that Great Day will occur and all of those words will be fulfilled, but it will be beyond my physical lifetime, and Jim and Robert Frost will both be pleasantly surprised when it does, but
31 comments:
Thank you Dennis for pointing out this video on critical thinking. After watching it, I concluded that God exists, the bible is His inspired word, and that Dennis has fallen away and is trying to take others with him.
Great video.
Ponzi schemes? Yep, that is the only way the brown-nosers of HWA know how to start or run a church. Top-down rule. Find people who believe in God, then convince them you speak for one, you can then ride on top till you die or someone else does. Bernie says, "Don't answer their questions, Ask your own questions that you alone can answer!" Dave Pack is such a devious sly bastard!
DBP
" ...and that Dennis has fallen away and is trying to take others with him."
The context was meant to encourage any RCG/PCG types to think better about what they are exposed to weekly by their one man leadership and views and perhaps to realize the way the are being exposed to scripture and conclusions drawn might be suspect.
In the view of many, the Bible is not critical thinking friendly.
"The fool has said in his heart there is no God." (Label folk fools for questioning or accepting weak proof)
"The wisdom of man is foolishness to God." (Make fun of learning from experience)
"Know this, in the last days scoffers will come saying.."where is the promise of his coming?"
(which seems a reasonable response the failures of "soon", "shortly" and "quickly" noticed by those who were told time was short and not to marry etc.)
"There is a way which that SEEMS right to a man, but the ways thereof end in death."
(You aren't able to decide what is correct by examination)
Promises are made that are not possible to keep and don't actually work as advertised but noticing this is dangerous to one's acceptance in the group.
" Prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
This simply is not how it works in reality and manuipulative
"Whatever you ask in my name I will give it you."
(That would actually be a disaster and comes with many apologetics and conditions when taken too literally. "You ask amiss..." etc)
" 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.)
(Another formula for disappointment and disaster)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"
(In reality this polyanna view of power allows political and religious leaders to abuse you. Paul or an editor probably asked this be put in Romans to support the Romans and kiss up to power)
Faith being the stuff of what we hope is so and the evidence of that for which we have none, is not a formula for progress in reality. Facts eventually trump faith and is an ever shrinking concept as critical thinking and observations are practiced and the rantings of delusional thinking become obviously wrong over time.
.
Many people in these abusive groups have had their minds imprisoned with certain lies. For instance, if you leave our group, you lose your eternal life. This is untrue since a Christian is one who follows Christ rather than one who warms a seat in a certain church.
Christ on several occasions criticised his disciples for not thinking, and showed the greatest respect for reason. The bible does say to 'prove all things,' and that wisdom is more precious than jewels.
But it's true that these churches have a anti think culture.
As I've mentioned before, Herbie copied the protestants churches (with slight changes) rather than using the bible as the reference point.
Hence the answer to questions regarding differences between the bible and what's being taught is 'don't think.'
why do we put so much emphasis on brain activity when that organ has proven without ambiguity to rot after we die??? who do we think we are? think critically in our short life time, then we die, we watch those we care about die...
the godless are truly the most hopeless and pathetic; your life is in vain, and you know there is only one end for you, so what is the point of your struggle???
does it make you feel you are fulfilling the notion of survival of the fittest? you will only be living for so long regardless of your vain point of view, so what is your point???
11.10PM
The point is eternal life. That's why the struggle and hardship. The reward is worth it. Life must be hard on those who do not have this hope.
Anon wrote:
"the godless are truly the most hopeless and pathetic; your life is in vain, and you know there is only one end for you, so what is the point of your struggle???"
Well, since you ask. Our primate species has managed to reach a level of knowledge that includes the knowledge that we are going to die. (When we didn't possess that knowledge we merely went around our daily business like every other animal, picking berries, capturing prey and only concerned with our immediate situation.)
Now having acknowledged such game-changing knowledge, we all have the need to find something to get our minds off of it. All of us, mind you. Those who don't accept ancient fables may find some higher meaning in rational discussion and thinking critically. Or in the sublimity of music or other art. Or in helping others during our short time here. Or in rooting for technology to save us (in time) from our impending death.
On the other hand, those who do accept ancient fables as being true place their hopes in that as an afterlife, which does not make those hopes true by any means, but it helps them get through this life.
If we both had a terminal illness and I asked Santa for a magical pill on Christmas to save me, and you said Santa was nonsense and attempted to rationally prove it to me, I might use your argument, saying that if you don't believe in Santa then you have no hope, and your life is pathetic, you're screwed, so why bother to try to prove it to me. Would that convince you to believe in Santa, or even stop pointing out that Santa is a myth? Didn't think so...
One of the fearful asked...
"... what is your point???"
I was raised without the lies of religion by secular parents.
Up until I was 30 I enjoyed my happy freedom of dancing, dames and dice.
From 30 to 55 I was a goon in the Armstrong ripoff plan. I taught the madness to my fellow fools in captivity. I was good at it. The WCG gave me what I ignorantly wanted and I paid for it.
For the past 22 years I studied cults, religion and atheism (the lack of belief in man's gods). I've had my freedom for these past years. FREEDOM!! I've learned that the non-existent god and the invisible one look just alike.
I quote a line from an old film:
"Where I come from, nobody knows,
where I am going, everybody goes".
The point is living a free life now with the time left. Armstrongism was just a bad road on a long trip in a strange land.
"I turned to speak to God
About the world's dispair;
But to make matters worse
I found God wasn't there."
--Robert Frost
Jim
Anon said:
"the godless are truly the most hopeless and pathetic; your life is in vain, and you know there is only one end for you, so what is the point of your struggle???
does it make you feel you are fulfilling the notion of survival of the fittest? you will only be living for so long regardless of your vain point of view, so what is your point???"
I'm actually a very kind, compassionate, a bit too tender hearted at times, intelligent, introspective and thinking human being. Hopeless and pathetic? Not so much.
My life is just fine thank you and I am grateful to be living at such a time as this where knowledge truly is increased. The scripture makes that always sound like a bad thing as we know and a sign of the end. I take it as a sign of new beginnings and appreciate the increased knowledge intelligent humans seek and find.
I don't mind being stardust and returning to it. I don't mind being the current end product of human evolution and a hairless conscious hominid. I'd like to think I am consciousness trapped for now in a limited five sensed carbon based wetsuit, but we'll have to see.
These are my experiences with the application of scripture, taken at face value, over decades and applying and seeing them applied by sincere people . Much could be noted and many examples given
why do we put so much emphasis on brain activity when that organ has proven without ambiguity to rot after we die???
Well, there it is -- for some people, without ambiguity it is apparent that their brain has rotted while they are still alive.
One of the very BIG mistakes people make is to assume that Armstrongism traps people because they don't have 'critical' or more accurately 'analytical' thinking (reasoning), without realizing that it is the problem: Herbert Armstrong had high analytical reasoning (with a high flow of ideas and virtually no inductive reasoning). What he had as his philosophy was quite the analytical reasoning framework where the doctrines were internally logically consistent. In fact, the logical basis was both tight and sound.
And having said that, and before you logicians protest, you should consider one fact: It was REALLY logical and impervious to critical and analytical deconstruction as long as -- and this is the really IMPORTANT part -- you ignore the initial premises: That the Bible is the foundation of all knowledge (wrong!), that British Israelism is the key to understanding the Bible (wrong!) and that Herbert Armstrong was an apostle sent by God to present this to mankind as God's Gift to us (need we say it? WRONG! WRONG! and WRONG!). Once you buy into the initial premises, you are doomed because from that point on, there is no logical way out of the conundrums of the Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia. If you are honest and accept the initial conditions of the premises, you MUST accept EVERYTHING that Herbert Armstrong says, even though he was quite daft, totally wrong and a kook. You CAN'T accept anything else.
So forget critical thinking. Forget analytical thinking. They won't help you.
What will help you is inductive reasoning and reasoning by analogy (which, if you use it, can either set you on the right path or will help you see if you are wrong, it will be obvious you are wrong), using research to determine if the outside world matches the internal construct that was built (it doesn't).
Johnathan C. Smith in "Pseudoscience and Extaordinary Claims of the Paranormal" pointed out that you can have a totally internally consistent logical construct but somewhere along the line, that's no help because you have to check the real world.
That is why science is such an enemy of Armstrongism: It relies on observation, and not just observation, but consistent reproducible observation. Armstrongism is a major fail on all fronts when you apply observation in the real world.
For example: The Land Sabbath. If farmers keep it, they will be blessed, right? The Bible says so. Here's the problem -- WCG farmers tried it and either had to borrow money, go broke and / or lose the farm. It didn't work in the real world. I asked Rich Odegard, who is both the pastor of the New Life Church of God, Seventh Day (he keeps the Sabbath and the holydays, but is not Armstrongist) and was the Pierce County Jail Chaplain for over 16 years -- having more understanding and knowledge than ANY Armstrongist minister or leader I know -- about this and he replied that for Scripture there were many instances where it is a matter of a limited time and a limited place. If you accept that premise, there would have been a time when the land Sabbath did work for farmers, but only in the land of Israel and during the period of the Old Testament. Or you can believe that the Bible was never true and the result is the same: It doesn't work, and since it doesn't work, it simply isn't true -- and anything else related to it, in the same manner -- well, they aren't true either because they aren't workable. All of you keeping third tithe should reflect on that and have lowered expectations about the physical blessings you are counting on.
Go ahead. Ignore this at your own peril.
"Why do we put so much emphasis on brain activity when that organ has proven without abiguity to rot after we die?"
Well, gee anonymous, I don't know. Could it be that part of the HWAcaca was "the spirit of man" which was posited as differentiating mankind from the animals, the area which preserves our character, personality, and experiences, and supposedly sleeps following death, awaiting the rez? This was Herpes' primitive understanding of the soul or of the akashic records, so must be included in our post-mortem dissection and autopsy of Armstrongism, just like all of the other pseudo doctrines.
BB
Anonymous said...
11.10PM
The point is eternal life. That's why the struggle and hardship. The reward is worth it. Life must be hard on those who do not have this hope.
You can waste your entire life living in the past or future denying the only thing you really have and that being the present moments. Life is a "struggle and hardship" to the degree we don't accept things as they are graciously and with a humble appreciation for even being alive in the first place to experience life.
"Some people are so heavenly (Or Kingdom) bound, they are of no earthly good."
"You can waste your entire life living in the past or future..."
One of the saddest things I've witnessed is a person living in an imaginary future, where his bitterness demands that he refuse to speak with his parents.
He thinks all will be better, "in the Kingdom"!
As in this example, 'Christian' conclusions can be rather delusional and hurtful.
Years ago, I spoke with the parents, who displayed much more Christian love than the "love" displayed by the son who cut them off.
It was surprising the speaker didn't have a copy of the American Heritage Dictionary. The word gullible is on page 781 "easily deceived or duped". Then at the end he mocks the person looking for that word which gained currency in the 19th century.
A sample sentence might be "I was gullible to listen to the World Tomorrow broadcasts in the 1960s". I was also poorly-educated in a Vt mill town.
Thousands of people in the 1840s were gullible enough the act on the BS William Miller was throwing around that the alleged Christ would show up in 1844. Miller was the first con-man
of note of this madness in the early 1880s. Ellen G. (Harmon) White was a later prophetess who gave it a new twist and was a co-founder of the Seventh-Day Adventists which has made tons of money from the millions of gullible suckers of earlier times. (The speaker had a number of confusions in his presentation concerning Miller and the Whites).
For the few readers in this forum, get a copy of "The Disappointed; Millerism and Millinarianism in the Nineteenth Century" by Ronald L. Numbers and Jonathan M. Butler. (1993) There are eleven chapters (with end notes) in the book along with 2 appendices.
Years ago I visited the Miller homestead in upstate eastern New York. Miller himself was not a Sabbath-keeper. He died a broken man in 1849.
Jim
Jim
It was surprising the speaker didn't have a copy of the American Heritage Dictionary. The word gullible is on page 781 "easily deceived or duped". Then at the end he mocks the person looking for that word which gained currency in the 19th century.
A sample sentence might be "I was gullible to listen to the World Tomorrow broadcasts in the 1960s". I was also poorly-educated in a Vt mill town.
Thousands of people in the 1840s were gullible enough the act on the BS William Miller was throwing around that the alleged Christ would show up in 1844. Miller was the first con-man
of note of this madness in the early 1880s. Ellen G. (Harmon) White was a later prophetess who gave it a new twist and was a co-founder of the Seventh-Day Adventists which has made tons of money from the millions of gullible suckers of earlier times. (The speaker had a number of confusions in his presentation concerning Miller and the Whites).
For the few readers in this forum, get a copy of "The Disappointed; Millerism and Millinarianism in the Nineteenth Century" by Ronald L. Numbers and Jonathan M. Butler. (1993) There are eleven chapters (with end notes) in the book along with 2 appendices.
Years ago I visited the Miller homestead in upstate eastern New York. Miller himself was not a Sabbath-keeper. He died a broken man in 1849.
Jim
Jim
Thanks Dennis,
This is an extremely helpful, intelligent topic followed up by a number of thoughtful and logical comments.
I don't know if there may be some spiritual aspect of us that lives on after we die, but I am rather dubious. Whatever the case may be, it makes no sense to worry so much about a possible future life that we waste the one we have in the here and now. You already expressed this same idea, and I am agreeing.
Religion and belief in the infallibility of the bible distract us and rob us of our freedom to operate in reality and contribute to our society and the evolution of mankind.
Dennis says " Life is a "struggle and hardship" to the degree we
don't accept things as they are graciously and..."
Ha, a, ha. You should meet my sister and brother in law. Ha, ha, ha.
This is the typical (former)/minister advice. They are treated with kids cloves and treated like semi royalty in their churches. They think this ivory tower is the real world. As all ordinary members know, it is not.
Critical thinking is exactly what got me kicked out of LCG.
I was told that questioning God's ministry was akin to questioning Christ Himself (which I would also feel okay doing BTW).
LCG wants ignorant, mind-numb morons who obey like good little slaves.
Those that dare to think are eventually weeded out by the overbearing, egotistical ministry.
I would rather have a brain capable of critical thinking than membership in a group of mindless sheeple.
Dennis modestly admits, "I don't mind being stardust and returning to it."
Very biblical attitude, Dennis. Extremely biblical.
The ancient Israelites lacked Dennis's knowledge that earth-dust derives from stardust, but they knew what happens to corpses. It's a familiar line in the creation myth. Their god, in cursing Adam for disobedience, declared, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
Furthermore, what happens to us is just like what happens to other animals, and if humans are different in having a spirit, the knowledge of its fate after death is entirely beyond us. Notice the verses in Ecclesiastes beginning with 3:19: "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts. In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? 22) Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?"
This passage provides me a framework for meaningful living the way the Parable of the Talents defines the life of the Commenter Who Must Not Be Named, whose internet handle can be paraphrased as SwappingDude. With the help of Dennis's reference to our origin in stardust, it also points me to reincarnation--but only in the purely chemical sense. I may have a spirit, but if so who shall bring me to see what shall be after me?
Nobody, as far as I can see.
Fortunately I have been brought to see what shall happen to my molecules after me. Like any living thing, I can be seen as a means of assembling and concentrating a quantity of organic material so that it can nourish other forms of life. I worked on a crew moving cemeteries out of a basin to be flooded by a dam. I saw how the molecules that make up bodily tissues are broken down by molds and bacteria and reassembled. As happened with those people I dug up, my molecules will turn into dust--well, dirt at least--a dark brown layer of compost in the bottom of the grave. If a tree sends its roots down there, those new molecules will get sucked out of the compost, broken down again, and reassembled as wood, bark, and leaves for the tree. If caterpillars eat the leaves and squirrels and birds eat the seeds, those creatures in their turn will get consumed or decomposed. And on and on and on.
At death my mind will dissipate, but right now it can conceive the whole sequence, from stardust through me to a whole teeming multitude of future living things that will one after the other incorporate the stardust I consist of now. The sequence is shorter than eternity, but still it is long enough to strike me with awe and gratitude that I can be a part of it, if only for (on the cosmic scale) the briefest instant.
On the whole, much more satisfactory than an eternity devoted to singing praises out of the Purple Hymnal.
"The point is eternal life."
It's much more than just that. Fundamentalists try to monopolize "life after death" for everybody, and only grant those that obey them as the ones deemed worthy to have it. Jihads, holy wars, and utopian dictators are experts in creating hell on earth. Now why would anybody entrust them with heaven and eternal life when all they can do down here is the opposite?(just a rhetorical ?).
Michael said: "..I asked Santa for a magical pill on Christmas to save me,.."
...around the 30sec mark, you can almost see the irony momentarily dawn on his face.
DBP
we speak as if we will live for ever; yet ultimately we can either obey God and live forever, or think for ourselves, as if we were born knowing everything; having lived for nothing, and dying as if you never lived...
such a life is personally vain: you can be as smart as you wanna be, but you cannot prevent yours or anyone elses inevitable death, and you scarcely have the power to extend your own lives past 75 or 80 years,
yet you think so highly of yourselves and your points of view, not admitting that your critical thinking is limited by ignorance, and by the use of an organ that ultimately turns to dust...
"...you can be as smart as you wanna be, but you cannot prevent yours or anyone elses inevitable death, and you scarcely have the power to extend your own lives past 75 or 80 years,.."
But it seems we are getting closer to the above. Maybe the learning process is a eternal one.
Retired Prof said: "The sequence is shorter than eternity, but still it is long enough to strike me with awe and gratitude that I can be a part of it, if only for (on the cosmic scale) the briefest instant."
Humbling and very inspiring, Retired Prof!
DBP
ps: Armstongists need to realize that "...all your money won't another minute buy..."
8.36 PM. Yours is the typical 'Christian' viewpoint. You create a false dichotomy between obeying God and 'thinking for ourselves'/'critical thinking.' These are not at odds with one another, but rather complement each other. 'Obeying God rather than man' requires thinking for ourselves and critical thinking.
This false dichotomy is a lie so that the power crazed ministers and their bootlickers can rob members of all their God given rights. This is of Satan, not of God.
DBP wrote:
"Michael said: "..I asked Santa for a magical pill on Christmas to save me,.."
...around the 30sec mark, you can almost see the irony momentarily dawn on his face."
Yes;) the irony is apparent, although dunno if Hovind himself actually caught it.
"And Santa doesn't answer cuz he's not... really... there" :-)
Y'know for those who pray [to any god], I would think it would be an imperative exercise to do the following for about a month:
Write a list in two columns, about things you specifically prayed about, in one column, those that occur as prayed, and in another column, those that don't come true as requested.
At the end of the month, do a tally and ask if the way the "answers" or "non-answers" to your prayers turned out are in any way distinguishable from pure chance.
One of the rules being, that you must not use any rationalizations such as "well He answered in a different way, or the answer was no, or I shouldn't have been asking for it anyway, or He gave me something better". Nothing like that, just a straight honest assessment. Did my prayers get answered as I asked, or not? Or did things turn out about the same as if there were no God, and I was just talking to the wall?
A person who prays regularly but hasn't done something like this doesn't have any grounds for saying "God answers prayers".
Just as no one ever thinks they don't belong to the "true church" , everyone thinks they think critically or they'd not believe what they believe. Our emotional , fear, guilt and shame issues get entangled in the mix taking us off in many different directions and wherever we end up we probably all believe we got there thinking things through logically and critically. We also go into looking for the truth of this or that with a lot of pre-existant confirmation biases.
I suspect we all are doing the best we can for the perspectives and issues we have in life.
However, I don't buy the idea that we have to give our minds over to the unseen and unknowable because our receiver will turn to dust someday. If there is really nothing Biblically promised after death , as I suspect , none of us will get to say "I told you so" anyway. lol
Thank you for posting. A very good talk
"We probably all believe we got there thinking things through logically and critically."
I suspect that is true. Yet each of us has probably experienced great wonderment at the conclusions of others, and how those conclusions were reached. In fact, on some occasions, those conclusions are even made into straw men, with the consequence that any persuasion or education away from them loses relevance and misses the mark. But, that's what can happen in blog debates. It becomes like the election season TV ads for candidates and initiatives. As in "Wow! Where did that even come from?"
There is another completely different dynamic that often comes into play in a court of law. And that is, how much did a person understand? Did he or she make a fully informed decision? Many of us who take a counter position to Armstrongism, as an example, believe that Armstrong acolytes were spoon fed partial, illegitimate, and manipulative information leading to their beliefs and opinions, and that fear is part of that equation as well. We don't believe, in other words, that these acolytes made fully informed decisions. Their teachers sole source, and do not allow independent research or second opinions. But, these acolytes have been made to believe that they were not only led by logical and critical thinking, but that their minds were opened to "truths" that make them part of an elite group that "the world" cannot comprehend. Some, even years after they have left, want to continue believing that they are part of a special group, or have somehow been enlightened in ways that others have not.
The best caveat is caveat emptor. Never stop testing. Never assume that you have all the answers. Realize that every answer is not the final destination. Every answer spawns a new set of questions. Life is a process, a journey. These principles or paradigms do not become suspended just because a person has become immersed in a particular philosophy or way of life. Don't become hostage to, or codependent with a guru or the prefab package he presents. Remember personal responsibility and informed consent. Hold yourself and others accountable.
BB
"The one good thing about facts, is that there will always be more." Feynman
DBP
well, you all cite your dead men, and i will cite mines; the words i have cited have endured for thousands of years...who will be citing your sources 100 years from now???
Anon 6:06 AM, January 12, 2017, quoted the thoughts of others writing the following:
******
I quote a line from an old film:
"Where I come from, nobody knows,
where I am going, everybody goes".
AND
"I turned to speak to God
About the world's dispair;
But to make matters worse
I found God wasn't there."
--Robert Frost
Jim
******
Those 2 quotes brought to my mind the words of two other ancient individuals, which are for Jim, Robert Frost and whoever gave out that film quote...for all of us:
Isaiah 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
:9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we ARE ALL THY PEOPLE.
And when are we all to become "thy people?" Quoting that other individual:
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is WITH MEN, and he will dwell with THEM, and THEY SHALL BE HIS PEOPLE, and God himself shall be with THEM, and be THEIR God.
:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from THEIR eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
But there appear to be a couple of catches before people will exist in that time and express those thoughts. There is going to have to be a resurrection. Will that resurrection happen and people actually come to think about and express those thoughts?
I am confident that Great Day will occur and all of those words will be fulfilled, but it will be beyond my physical lifetime, and Jim and Robert Frost will both be pleasantly surprised when it does, but
Time will tell...
John
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