Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
I realize some here think it is just not time for prophecy to come alive and that it has not yet come to pass but will. Others might see it as failed and was for times past. Some will dismiss the reality of there really being no prophets or future seeing to begin with as a human skill or calling. And of course, some will dismiss anything if the presenter doesn't look the way they think they should and thus will find themselves going deaf.
The Churches of God have lived, do live and will always live off the mistaken notion of Prophecy. It brings in the fearful and keeps the faithful on their seats, sometimes gyrating with events that will shortly come to pass and are just around the corner. We can kid about Jesus coming in 3-5, 10 at the most, perhaps 15 and 20 tops all one wishes to, but it ruins lives that one can actually live with anticipation for events that will not happen as advertised.
Only in hindsight will one realize what a waste of their life time, talents and resources the fixation with Bible Prophecy has been for them personally.
As I write this, my mother, age 92 and a member of the WCG/GCI from 1958 is going into hospice with probably a very short time to live. She thought that in HER lifetime she'd see Christ return. That by remaining faithful by paying out thousands of dollars in tithes and performing countless holy day rituals and attending services sometimes twice a day for 59 freaking years she'd cheat death and achieve eternal life. So pissed that we were sold an empty sack of dreams.
Dennis Your 1.37 PM comment proves that yours was "a waste of life time of talents, and resources" by not growing as a Christian and qualifying for the kingdom. You are the one with the problem rather than those fixated with bible prophesy.
I still think the scruffy looking guy needs a haircut. There are limits. What's next? Some kink-head in baggy jeans with his pants half down smoking a joint? There better people to listen to, so I not going deaf.
What i came to realise is how much time i wasted. The world is gonna end soon and we will go to a place of safety so nothing mattered. I did not invest money. I did not buy a house. As the church would emphasize material things were not important only getting God's message out there was. And yet the ministers did not deprive themselves with beautiful homes, cars, travel all over. They live fairly well while the rest of us pay every earned dollar for 1, 2, and 3rd tithes for years. Buying clothes from used clothing or getting the hand me downs at the fall feasts. They buy planes and such while they extolled us to not covet and try to live like the Joneses that the work needs to be completed and sacrifices made.
To believe in prophesy, you have to believe there's someone in control and pulling the strings to make everything go a certain way with a guaranteed outcome. History proves that's a vain illusion. Once in awhile, someone makes an accurate prediction based on observable facts, but that is simply observation and reason. No "strong hand from somewhere" has a damn thing to do with it.
6.45 PM Unfortunately what you say is true. Herb kept saying over and over that nothing matters except the work. As a trained advertiser, he was a master of discrediting and belittling alternate points of view. So while he smeared the physical, he lived in a mansion, flew in his private jet sipping champagne (I read there was normally a bottle on board), stayed in five star hotels, and treated like a god in his personal church. He practised the opposite of what he preached.
As CEO of his church, he changed the gospel from that of salvation (what could be more important) to that of some future world ruling government. This is a self serving lie. This put government before peoples right to life. This is like the Pharisees condemning Christ for healing on the Sabbath. They too, put something before life itself. The supreme value is life rather than some moral code or government.
Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
And yet, these prophecies, obviously, did not come to pass. Thus, Jesus was a false prophet, therefore:
Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Allen C. Dexter wrote: "To believe in prophesy, you have to believe there's someone in control and pulling the strings to make everything go a certain way with a guaranteed outcome."
I often wonder how those who believe in prophecy (which used to include myself), are able to square that with their belief in (God-given) free will. You simply can't have both.
If humans really have free will, then that by force introduces a wild card into the mix, so that noone, not even God, can reliably predict what's going to happen.
For example, certain key humans could "repent" let's say, or choose to be somewhat less evil than predicted, and all "end-time prophecy" would be way off the mark.
The oft-heard rescue device that, "human nature is known by God, so he he knows how they're going to act", may rescue the ability to prophesy but at the expense of free will.
Prophecy and free will. They're simply two incompatible ideas.
i believe God is looking for a way out of the doom and gloom prophesied, and the Church has neglected this aspect...
if the Church hierarchy only understood and believed three key Scriptures, confusion about "the Lord delayeth His Coming" would be diminished:
1 Corinthians 13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." (implies that love can change prophesy)...
Malachi 4:6 "...lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (implies an alternate option)...
Amos 5:1 "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light." (addresses the fact that there will be some who are fixated on a doomsday scenario, neglecting the possibility of an out...
I got hooked in part into WCG with prophecy and specifically recall one of the proofs of God was fulfilled prophecy etc. The booklet used the references to Tyre
Ez. 26:14 I will make you a bare rock. You shall be a place for the spreading of nets. You shall never be rebuilt, for I am the Lord; I have spoken, declares the Lord God.
Ezek.26:7-14, 26:2 and 27:36 God says that Tyre will be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar.....Bigly! . Mark 7:24, Matt.15:21, Acts 21 :3, and Mark 3:8 show that Tyre existed throughout New Testament times.
Tyre has never been totally destroyed, it has been constantly inhabited since 2750 BCE. Nebuchadnezzar attacked Tyre but even after 13 years he could still not take it, he never did. reality . It was there for Alexander the Great to also attack. It's a normal city today on the coast and neither abandoned, save for the archaeological parts, nor in the sea.
Evidently "never" is like "forever" and "soon" in prophecy. Hyperbole...
Isaiah 17:1 “An oracle concerning Damascus: See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.”
FAIL: Damascus is still inhabited today with well over a million people and there was never a time where it ceased to be a city. It is widely known as being the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.
Isaiah 19:4-5 “I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them, declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty. The waters of the river will dry up, and the riverbed will be parched and dry.”
FAIL: The river mentioned here is the Nile which never dried up and is still one of Egypt’s greatest natural resource.
Isaiah 52:1 “Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.”
FAIL: There are still uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.
Ezekiel 30:10-11 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army – the most ruthless of nations – will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain.”
FAIL: Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon will conquer Egypt utterly destroying it, slaying and scattering its people. In 568 BCE Nebuchadnezzar tried to conquer Egypt and Egypt survived with no apparent damage. Aahmes ruled for another generation over a prosperous Egypt and lived to see Nebuchadnezzar die. The Egyptians were not scattered or dispersed.
Ezekiel 29:10-11 “therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.”
FAIL: Never in its long history has Egypt been uninhabited for forty years.
Matthew 16:28 “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” 23:36 “I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.” 24:34 “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”
Apologetics aside, this was spoken about them at that time and is not "for the people who are 'this generation' it occurs for" at some time in the future.
FAIL: Jesus states in Matthew that all the signs marking the end of the world would be fulfilled before his generation ended, before the people that were standing in front of him “taste death.” Those people have been dead for over 2000 years and the world did not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled.
Kink-head, eh? Well, I dont wear baggy jeans or smoke weed, but if you prefer flabby old white guys with combed-back hair, there are plenty of HWA imitators out there for you.
Well you try to look like a christian who opposses falsehood in the church, with posts like these you expose who you really are, just one of the enemies minions.
You use the church to earn money, its not about helping people to you.
Dennis wrote: one of the proofs of God was fulfilled prophecy
In one of the many renditions of the story of his intensive study in the Portland Public Library, HWA wrote that he had intended to analyze all religions. And since he was studying the "Sabbath issue" he'd start with Christianity. But since he got all the "proof" he needed from OT prophecies, there was no reason to study any other religion.
When I read "HWA Disproves the Bible", I thought, now he has to resume his intensive study...
4.49 AM Hoss Qualify means both 'making it' and getting to rule as many cities as possible. God will not allow any more Satans into His kingdom. Fixation on prophesy not healthy? Hmmm. A common complaint, but it ignores that Christians are front line troops fighting for their very eternal existence. Complaining that front line troops in ditches lack poise and mental equilibrium is imbecilic and cruel. Enjoy your cup of coffee and cake, far and safe from the front line. One lump of sugar or two? Another slice of cake?
24 comments:
Well even science and skeptics agree with the fact that the world (and universe itself) will end eventually.
Problem is in telling when "eventual" is going to precisely be!
I realize some here think it is just not time for prophecy to come alive and that it has not yet come to pass but will. Others might see it as failed and was for times past. Some will dismiss the reality of there really being no prophets or future seeing to begin with as a human skill or calling. And of course, some will dismiss anything if the presenter doesn't look the way they think they should and thus will find themselves going deaf.
The Churches of God have lived, do live and will always live off the mistaken notion of Prophecy. It brings in the fearful and keeps the faithful on their seats, sometimes gyrating with events that will shortly come to pass and are just around the corner. We can kid about Jesus coming in 3-5, 10 at the most, perhaps 15 and 20 tops all one wishes to, but it ruins lives that one can actually live with anticipation for events that will not happen as advertised.
Only in hindsight will one realize what a waste of their life time, talents and resources the fixation with Bible Prophecy has been for them personally.
As I write this, my mother, age 92 and a member of the WCG/GCI from 1958 is going into hospice with probably a very short time to live. She thought that in HER lifetime she'd see Christ return. That by remaining faithful by paying out thousands of dollars in tithes and performing countless holy day rituals and attending services sometimes twice a day for 59 freaking years she'd cheat death and achieve eternal life. So pissed that we were sold an empty sack of dreams.
No, Dennis, I think you're just going to be reading a bunch of comments wringing their hands about the guy's hair.
Dennis
Your 1.37 PM comment proves that yours was "a waste of life time of talents, and resources" by not growing as a Christian and qualifying for the kingdom. You are the one with the problem rather than those fixated with bible prophesy.
I still think the scruffy looking guy needs a haircut. There are limits. What's next? Some kink-head in baggy jeans with his pants half down smoking a joint? There better people to listen to, so I not going deaf.
What i came to realise is how much time i wasted. The world is gonna end soon and we will go to a place of safety so nothing mattered. I did not invest money. I did not buy a house. As the church would emphasize material things were not important only getting God's message out there was. And yet the ministers did not deprive themselves with beautiful homes, cars, travel all over. They live fairly well while the rest of us pay every earned dollar for 1, 2, and 3rd tithes for years. Buying clothes from used clothing or getting the hand me downs at the fall feasts. They buy planes and such while they extolled us to not covet and try to live like the Joneses that the work needs to be completed and sacrifices made.
To believe in prophesy, you have to believe there's someone in control and pulling the strings to make everything go a certain way with a guaranteed outcome. History proves that's a vain illusion. Once in awhile, someone makes an accurate prediction based on observable facts, but that is simply observation and reason. No "strong hand from somewhere" has a damn thing to do with it.
Allen C. Dexter
6.45 PM
Unfortunately what you say is true. Herb kept saying over and over that nothing matters except the work. As a trained advertiser, he was a master of discrediting and belittling alternate points of view. So while he smeared the physical, he lived in a mansion, flew in his private jet sipping champagne (I read there was normally a bottle on board), stayed in five star hotels, and treated like a god in his personal church. He practised the opposite of what he preached.
As CEO of his church, he changed the gospel from that of salvation (what could be more important) to that of some future world ruling government. This is a self serving lie. This put government before peoples right to life. This is like the Pharisees condemning Christ for healing on the Sabbath. They too, put something before life itself. The supreme value is life rather than some moral code or government.
Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
And yet, these prophecies, obviously, did not come to pass. Thus, Jesus was a false prophet, therefore:
Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Read it an' weep.
Allen C. Dexter wrote:
"To believe in prophesy, you have to believe there's someone in control and pulling the strings to make everything go a certain way with a guaranteed outcome."
I often wonder how those who believe in prophecy (which used to include myself), are able to square that with their belief in (God-given) free will.
You simply can't have both.
If humans really have free will, then that by force introduces a wild card into the mix, so that noone, not even God, can reliably predict what's going to happen.
For example, certain key humans could "repent" let's say, or choose to be somewhat less evil than predicted, and all "end-time prophecy" would be way off the mark.
The oft-heard rescue device that, "human nature is known by God, so he he knows how they're going to act", may rescue the ability to prophesy but at the expense of free will.
Prophecy and free will. They're simply two incompatible ideas.
(Toward the end of the video Aron noted the discrepancy between prophecy and free will of course.)
i believe God is looking for a way out of the doom and gloom prophesied, and the Church has neglected this aspect...
if the Church hierarchy only understood and believed three key Scriptures, confusion about "the Lord delayeth His Coming" would be diminished:
1 Corinthians 13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." (implies that love can change prophesy)...
Malachi 4:6 "...lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (implies an alternate option)...
Amos 5:1 "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light." (addresses the fact that there will be some who are fixated on a doomsday scenario, neglecting the possibility of an out...
Anon 505 wrote: qualifying for the kingdom
I was wondering if by "qualifying" you meant "make it" in COG lingo, or "getting more cities" as interpreted from the parable.
and those fixated with bible prophesy
Such obsession isn't a healthy sign. Careful with spelling: prophesy (verb) prophecy (noun)
Atheists.....pure nonsense.
I got hooked in part into WCG with prophecy and specifically recall one of the proofs of God was fulfilled prophecy etc. The booklet used the references to Tyre
Ez. 26:14 I will make you a bare rock. You shall be a place for the spreading of nets. You shall never be rebuilt, for I am the Lord; I have spoken, declares the Lord God.
Ezek.26:7-14, 26:2 and 27:36 God says that Tyre will be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar.....Bigly!
.
Mark 7:24, Matt.15:21, Acts 21 :3, and Mark 3:8 show that Tyre existed throughout New Testament times.
Tyre has never been totally destroyed, it has been constantly inhabited since 2750 BCE. Nebuchadnezzar attacked Tyre but even after 13 years he could still not take it, he never did. reality . It was there for Alexander the Great to also attack. It's a normal city today on the coast and neither abandoned, save for the archaeological parts, nor in the sea.
Evidently "never" is like "forever" and "soon" in prophecy. Hyperbole...
"discrepancy between prophecy and free will of course"
All marketeers will disagree with this statement!
And policymakers have several scenario's ready for building programs in your city aswell.
I am regularly in sessions prophesying what you will eat, wear, do in the next few months.
And if not you than the millions "like you".
nck
Prophetic failures:
Isaiah 17:1 “An oracle concerning Damascus: See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.”
FAIL: Damascus is still inhabited today with well over a million people and there was never a time where it ceased to be a city. It is widely known as being the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.
Isaiah 19:4-5 “I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them, declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty. The waters of the river will dry up, and the riverbed will be parched and dry.”
FAIL: The river mentioned here is the Nile which never dried up and is still one of Egypt’s greatest natural resource.
Isaiah 52:1 “Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.”
FAIL: There are still uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.
Ezekiel 30:10-11 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army – the most ruthless of nations – will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain.”
FAIL: Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon will conquer Egypt utterly destroying it, slaying and scattering its people. In 568 BCE Nebuchadnezzar tried to conquer Egypt and Egypt survived with no apparent damage. Aahmes ruled for another generation over a prosperous Egypt and lived to see Nebuchadnezzar die. The Egyptians were not scattered or dispersed.
Ezekiel 29:10-11 “therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.”
FAIL: Never in its long history has Egypt been uninhabited for forty years.
Matthew 16:28 “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” 23:36 “I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.” 24:34 “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”
Apologetics aside, this was spoken about them at that time and is not "for the people who are 'this generation' it occurs for" at some time in the future.
FAIL: Jesus states in Matthew that all the signs marking the end of the world would be fulfilled before his generation ended, before the people that were standing in front of him “taste death.” Those people have been dead for over 2000 years and the world did not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled.
We have fake news.
Why can't we have fake prophecies?
Kink-head, eh? Well, I dont wear baggy jeans or smoke weed, but if you prefer flabby old white guys with combed-back hair, there are plenty of HWA imitators out there for you.
Well you try to look like a christian who opposses falsehood in the church, with posts like these you expose who you really are, just one of the enemies minions.
You use the church to earn money, its not about helping people to you.
Dennis wrote: one of the proofs of God was fulfilled prophecy
In one of the many renditions of the story of his intensive study in the Portland Public Library, HWA wrote that he had intended to analyze all religions. And since he was studying the "Sabbath issue" he'd start with Christianity. But since he got all the "proof" he needed from OT prophecies, there was no reason to study any other religion.
When I read "HWA Disproves the Bible", I thought, now he has to resume his intensive study...
4.49 AM
Hoss
Qualify means both 'making it' and getting to rule as many cities as possible. God will not allow any more Satans into His kingdom.
Fixation on prophesy not healthy? Hmmm. A common complaint, but it ignores that Christians are front line troops fighting for their very eternal existence. Complaining that front line troops in ditches lack poise and mental equilibrium is imbecilic and cruel.
Enjoy your cup of coffee and cake, far and safe from the front line. One lump of sugar or two? Another slice of cake?
Anon 849
I think we have differing views on priorities. No sugar, thanks, but cake would be nice.
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