Today a Lutheran pastor and a conservative has set off a firestorm after he wrote the following concerning the church shooting in Texas this past Sunday:
"For those with little understanding of and less regard for the Christian faith, there may be no greater image of prayer’s futility than Christians being gunned down mid-supplication. But for those familiar with the Bible’s promises concerning prayer and violence, nothing could be further from the truth. When those saints of First Baptist Church were murdered yesterday, God wasn’t ignoring their prayers. He was answering them.
We also pray in the Lord’s Prayer that God’s will be done. Sometimes, his will is done by allowing temporal evil to be the means through which he delivers us from eternal evil. Despite the best (or, more accurately, the worst) intentions of the wicked against his children, God hoists them on their own petard by using their wickedness to give those children his victory, even as the wicked often mock the prayers of their prey."
"We also pray in the Lord’s Prayer that God’s will be done. Sometimes, his will is done by allowing temporal evil to be the means through which he delivers us from eternal evil. Despite the best (or, more accurately, the worst) intentions of the wicked against his children, God hoists them on their own petard by using their wickedness to give those children his victory, even as the wicked often mock the prayers of their prey. "
"So when a madman with a rifle sought to persecute the faithful at First Baptist Church on Sunday morning, he failed. Just like those who put Christ to death, and just like those who have brought violence to believers in every generation, this man only succeeded in being the means through which God delivered his children from this evil world into an eternity of righteousness and peace."
The above quotes from the Lutheran pastor are by no means unique to him. This has always been a common theme in the Church of God. I cannot even begin to count the number of times I have heard ministers and members say that when a person has died from either a horrible accident or in their sleep, that God was saving them from the soon coming tribulation. They had fought the good fight and God was saving them a little early.“We do not need to fear the day of persecution that’s coming to the church, because God said it’s going to come. He warned us over 2,000 years ago the day was coming. And rather than fear it, He said just endure it. Now ‘endure it’ is a hard word. ‘Endure it’ doesn’t mean that they might take your ice cream away today. ‘Endure it’ means it may be a rough day. It may be a rough few years. But the one who endures to the end will be delivered.” See: When The Saints Of First Baptist Church Were Murdered, God Was Answering Their Prayers
Even when small babies or children have died, callous ministers and members have said the same thing. God took their lives so that they might have a better life later. Who in the hell wants to hear that shit when they are grieving?
While the Christian hope certainly is in a better life to come, God certainly is not letting unborn babies or 98-year-old women be murdered in church just to save them for something better. This kind of thinking is just one more piece of rotten fruit lobed into the already putrid basket of legalism.
36 comments:
I'm a believer in the basic "new truth" HWA brought, minus Birthday, Makeup, don't use doctors crap etc.. I was raised Catholic. Totally clueless about the Bible. So despite the great personality flaws of the Armstrongs and their messed up top dogs, I appreciate having an insight that there's hope in the future for the majority mankind based on our limited understanding of God's salvation plan.
Saying that, one thing I have learned is just how limited we really are. We do look through a glass "darkly". Human's who think they have special insight into the mind of our Creator well most of the time sound very foolish or even extremely stupid. Most religious people will just repeat standard lines that drive me nuts like, "The Lord called him" when someone dies, or God planned for someone's demise, when scripture teaches that we are all subject to time and chance, the wrong place at the wrong time.
Most humans, including those on COG, should consider just how much we are still in the dark and be humbled by that.
The mix of "free will", the "Fallen World", potential intervention of God, or the lack of it, and "time and chance" is a profound mystery. Anyone, Christian or not, must admit to a lot of ignorance when it comes to the ideas of fate and destiny.
As soon as I seen it was a Lutheran, I knew it was going to be some dumb ass quote. I work with a Lutheran and he is a complete dumb ass.
I hate to be callous, but here again is another example - this time close to home in the USA - where from an Armstrong perspective "fake Christians" suffering real martyrdom for their Christian beliefs. After 80 years of Armstrongism, and countless sermons on martyrdom, I have yet to hear of anyone in the Armstrong Churches of God movement suffering martyrdom. The LCG members who were shot and killed by Terry Ratzmann at Sabbath Services were not martyred. These "worldly" Baptists non-true Church of God members suffered real martyrdom. Of course, that fact will be lost on any ACOG member with the possible exception of "almost arrested for Sabbath keeping" bitter Bob Thiel. At some point, look for Bob Thiel to disclose he was once "almost martyred".
Richard
Growing up in the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) I would often hear crack pot sermons on the same lines as this.
“Does God Let People Deliberately Die In Order To Save Them from Future Calamities?”
God lets EVERYONE die sooner or later!
Also, the longer you live, the more calamities you will see.
If you really want to see calamities, check out the so-called COGs, especially the ones led by false prophets like Flurry or Pack.
As usual "God" gets off the hook with apologetics from his chosen intermediaries.
I've come to see that there are several dynamics in effect. There is straight probability. Mix up a gumbo of ingredients such as nature, good, bad, accidents, choices, consequences and unintended consequences, and sooner or later, good things are going to happen to people, bad things are going to happen to people, and neutral things are going to happen to people, as the laws of probability play out.
There are factors that can shade probability, such as economic status, where one lives, one's occupation, education, and health.
And then, there is occasional assistance from God, who alone decides how and when to alter probability on our behalf. There even appears to be a certain randomness to that, as well, because while it often gives us a much appreciated boost, it is rarely a sustained constant.
There is also the unexplained: those who defy the karmic laws, yet seem to be incredibly lucky in all of their activities. And, good people who have incredible runs of bad luck.
Personally, I've come to understand that when tragedies or inequities occur, most people recite their beliefs, or what they hope to be true. The bottom line is that in so many cases, there are things that we just don't know, or can't know. Sometimes things happen as a function of confluence, and there really is no one outstanding reason or purpose. Unfortunately, that does not prevent someone from assigning or projecting a reason. And, often, it's overly harsh.
BB
God never gave Job the reason for his trials. Is it not a bit arrogant to think that we know all of these mysteries? I don't recall many WCG pastors/teachers simply say, "I don't know" when asked a question. Rather than trying to figure it out, perhaps we should focus more on what we can do to help the survivors.
Back in the 1970s the local minister announced that a family returning from the FOT died in a plane crash. The minister used the standard "spared from the troubles ahead" line. Spared from the troubles ahead? What about the Place of Safety?
And a minister comforted parents whose child died due to the "no doctors" ruling with "you'll see your child again in the Second Resurrection". So, don't worry, you only have to wait for 1000+ years...
Flurry lied, people died.
"Who in the hell wants to hear that shit when they are grieving?"
People are people. People need hope. According to hyper-liberal Christopher Hedges, (whom I respect for his apparent sincerity, though he is often misguided and mixed up like everyone else) the lying CIA asset Obama-Dink won "Marketer [bull-crap artist] of the year" for his campaign on "The audacity of Hope".
It's all about hope. Hope is not a strategy. Obama-the-chronic-liar got elected on false hope. Let's hope God is about more than hope.
"If you really want to see calamities, check out the so-called COGs, especially the ones led by false prophets like Flurry or Pack."
Apostles and prophets don't lie. Gerald Flurry lies when he alters Herbert Armstrong's writings without telling the reader that they have been altered. Gerald is as sick as they get.
Death awaits everyone sooner or later.
People should stop lying about Kevin MacDonald.
Mr 18:10 says not to look down on children because their angels are always in heaven... In my experience in burying any number of children, that was the problem. They were elsewhere when needed the most.
This Lutheran ministers sermon is just partiality towards evil. God says 'choose life or choose death.' So death (evil) does exist. But not according to wicked people. To them, evil is just a illusion, people are imagining things.
There is no mention of the peoples right to life, to be free from violence and peoples sacred right to self defense.
Pretending that evil doesn't exist amounts to not passing moral judgment, thereby giving criminals a moral blank check.
Again, the greatest sin is to pass moral judgment.
More people should read Jim Dobson's book on Why Bad Things Happen to Good People.
Lying about Kevin MacDonald? More like crank up the reeducation camps for people like him!
BB
I have an atheist that works for me and even though he can be a nice guy at times, he said "those Christians deserved it". Now, even though that was a sick thing to say, he and the Lutheran pastor have a right to their opinion, sometimes people should choose their words more carefully and think before they speak.
Anon 2:32 and Steve D, I couldn't agree more. Trusting in our Lord and knowing we don't/won't understand the whys until we see Him face to face is a great comfort and helps us focus more on what we should be doing.
Matthew
Christians have always died in the whirling vortex of this world's evil. When the U.S Army landed on Omaha beach - Christians died. On the German side of D-Day, Deutsche who wanted to just raise cabbages in Bavaria and attend church also died. Maybe the fact that it occurred in a Baptist Church underscores the issue but that is all it amounts to - just an underscoring for something that has been happening for two millennia.
Stop and think what would happen if God protected Christians and just let non-believers take their chances. Human frustration with and hatred for God would be such a loud, intrusive noise that nobody would be able to give due and calm consideration to the Gospel. Just one point.
There's no "proof" either way, but I find the argument that "God is saving them by letting them be maimed and murdered" a too-convenient and puke-worthy Christian apologetic.
9.04AM
God does protect and/or deliver Christians. But it must be a 'true' Christian rather than a lip service Christian. This is based on 'you reap what you sow' since God is no respecter of persons.
And just who is a “true” Christian in your sight? An Armstrongite folllower who worships the law instead of Jesus or is a follower of David C Pack, Gerald Flurry or Gerald Weston? Don’t make me laugh! Armstrongism only makes so-called Christians.
Anon 9:04AM
Acts v 59 As Stephen was being stoned to death, he called out, “Lord Jesus, please welcome me!”
Stephan made the mistake of telling his people the truth, just like Christ. It can get you killed.
Tyndale risked his life to publish the English Bible and it got him burnt at the stake.
God's protection is possible. But not guaranteed.
Explain to me how God decides?
Why sit around waiting for a calamity later, when you could hurry up and get it all over with today? I mean, except for the death part of dying, it's really the anticipation that's killing me!
Christianity always has been a death cult. People tend to not like it though when that inconvenient truth gets said out loud.
Ernest Becker was right.
When Lazarus died, an angel escorted him to heaven. Angels can, on occasion, protect us. My son died in an automobile accident. There was an angel there. Why was the angel sent on an escort mission rather than a protect mission? I don't know. Perhaps, as when I was in the military, some information is assessable only on a "need to know" basis, regardless of the level of my security clearance. An instructor at Emmaus Bible College once asked us, "Is it all right for God to know something that you don't"? I have learned to be comfortable with not knowing some things. Some say that we will have all the answers in heaven, and by then, perhaps it won't matter.
I think we're being a bit harsh on the Lutheran writer. He might have included imprecisions in a couple of places, but I think he is mainly in the right.
It wasn't God's desirous will for this evil to happen, but of course it (and everything else that happens) was part of his permissive will. We have faith that God can bring about good from evil, that he can right the wrongs after this life. From our limited perspective, we can't presume to know exactly why God allows certain evils to happen, but that doesn't mean there isn't a reason.
I'll say I'd rather die praying in a church than in an act of sin. I don't think God will have a reason to say, "Oops, my bad!" on the other side. Rather, his followers will have every reason in the world to say, "His mercy endures forever!"
Gerald Flurry cannot explain why men have nipples.
I didn't know Lazarus was dead. My condolences to his family and to all his friends on this blog.
...when I was in the military, some information is accessible only on a "need to know" basis
That's what's wrong with the military and why I would never join. They didn't want you to know that Roosevelt started the war by sinking Hitler's ships contrary to the Geneva convention, and that Hitler just made the war official by declaring war so so he could legally fight back without contravening the convention.
That's the kind of thing they don't want you to know. That's one reason they keep secrets and still won't release many documents today, more than 70 years after the war, when all the guilty parties are dead.
As a former WGG member and now an atheist. I think that shit happens to the good and the bad. I have compassion for those killed in Texas and their families. The pain of those murders will always be with the surviving family members and their friends.
I think they met their end only because they were in the way of a depraved lunatic with a history of violence who was bent on killing that day.
I read where the brave man who took on the killer felt he had God's protection during their confrontation. I have a hard time understanding why God would protect that man and let the other innocents die. I'm not ridiculing the man's belief because I'm sure that's what he believes. I also realize that I may be wrong and my belief maybe wrong. Just sharing a different perspective
Helen Wheels claims 'Christianity always has been a death cult.' Biblical Christianity says 'choose life.' Christ said "I have come that you may have life and have it more abundantly.' So biblical morality is not a death cult. But the "traditions of men" Christianity that Christ condemned sadly is.
Todays Christianity as taught and practiced by the churches is essentially communism with biblical window dressing. For instance, when I started attending services in the 1970s, I couldn't help notice how the photos of the old graduate speaking clubs with their dark blue suits, looked very similar to the commie Mao suits of the time.
Notice the following description of communism and how it also well describes the behavior and attitudes of the ministers:
"The big mistake people make about Communism is to think that it’s just about collectivizing property. It’s actually about collectivizing people. Communist countries impose oppressive systems of censorship and interfere deeply with the personal lives of their subjects precisely because they take seriously this idea of the subordination of the individual to the collective good. They apply it to everything, including the very thoughts in your head, which they also treat as public property.
The next big lesson of Communism is that without individual freedom, there is no creativity, just mindless conformity.
More deeply, though, all of that is missing because in principle the needs, desires, and preferences of the individual are not supposed to matter.
That leads us to the deepest lesson of the history of Communism. Self-interest and individualism are just ways of saying that the life and happiness of the individual human being has value. Throw out these principles, and the life of the individual can be sacrificed, in whole or in part, with no limit. If an individual needs to be tortured for the good of the system, or worked to death in the gulags, or shot in the back of the head and tossed into a ditch—well, you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, right?"
Death cult indeed.
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