Richard Ames writes:
GROWTH IN THE NEW COVENANT: Have you allowed God to write His spiritual law on your heart and mind? Have you energetically sought to internalize the Ten Commandments as away of life? Many mainstream churches wrongly say that the Ten Commandments are "done away," but the truth is that we in God’s Church are pioneers of the New Covenant, allowing God to write His law on our hearts. So, examine yourself to determine how thoroughly you have internalized God’s law of love.
Here is a short chart of the things Richard Ames apparently refuses to acknowledge:
LAW COVENANT--MADE OLD | NEW COVENANT--DIFFERENT, FRESH |
|---|---|
| 1. Old covenant--2 Cor. 3:14 | New Covenant--2 Cor. 3:6 |
| 2. First covenant--Heb. 8:7; 9:1 | Second covenant--Heb. 8:7; 10:1-9 |
| 3. Came by Moses--John 1:17 | Came by Christ--Heb. 8:6; 9:15 |
| 4. Law of Moses--Acts 13:38,39 | Law of Christ--Gal. 6:2 |
| 5. Law of sin--Rom. 7:23; 8:2 | Law of righteousness--Rom. 9:30,31 |
| 6. Law of the flesh--Rom. 7:5,6 | Law of the spirit--Rom. 8:2 |
| 7. Not of faith--Gal. 3:12 | Law of faith--Rom. 3:27 |
| 8. Yoke of bondage--Gal. 5:1 | Law of liberty--James 1:25 |
| 9. Ended by Christ--Rom. 10:4 | Estab. by Christ--Heb. 8:6; 10:9 |
| 10. Law of death--2 Co.3:7; Ro.8:2 | Law of life--Gal. 3:11;6:8 |
| 11. Entangles--Gal. 5:1 | Makes free--John 8:32,36 |
| 12. A shadow--Col. 2:14-17 | The reality--Heb. 10:1-18 |
| 13. Fulfilled--Mat. 5:17,18 | Now in force--Heb. 8:6; 10:9 |
| 14. People left imperfect--Hb.7:19 | Makes perfect--Heb. 7:19 |
| 15. Glorious--2 Cor. 3:7 | More glorious--2 Cor. 3:8-10 |
| 16. Powerless to save--Hb.9:9;10:4 | Saves to uttermost--Heb. 7:25 |
| 17. Many sacrifices--Heb. 9:12,13 | One sacrifice for sins--Heb. 10:12 |
| 18. Temporary priest--Heb. 7:23 | Eternal priest--Heb. 7:17 |
| 19. Remembers sins--Heb. 10:3 | Forgets sins--Heb. 8:12; 10:17 |
| 20. Yearly atonement--Heb. 10:3 | Eternal atonement--Heb. 10:14 |
| 21. Priests have sin--Heb. 5:1-4 | Sinless priest--Heb. 7:26 |
| 22. Aaronic priesthood--Heb. 7:11 | Melchisedec--Heb. 5:5-10; 7:21 |
| 23. Out of Levi--Heb. 7:11 | Out of Judah--Heb. 7:14 |
| 24. Animal sacrifices--Heb. 9:12 | Human sacrifice--Heb. 9:14-28 |
| 25. Earthly tabernacle--Heb. 9:2 | Heavenly tabernacle--Heb. 8:2 |
| 26. Imperfect mediator--Gal. 3:19 | Sinless mediator--1 Tim. 2:5 |
| 27. No inheritance--Rom. 4:13 | Eternal inheritance--Heb. 9:15 |
| 28. Instituted upon animal blood -- Heb. 9:16-22 | Instituted upon blood of Christ -- Mat. 26:28 |
| 29. Law of works--Rom. 3:27 | Law of grace and faith--John 1:17 |
| 30. Works wrath--Rom. 4:15 | Saves from wrath--Rom. 5:9 |
| 31. Non-redeeming--Heb. 10:4 | Redeems--Gal. 3:13; Heb. 9:12-15 |
| 32. Non-pleasing--Psa. 40:6 | Pleasing to God--Heb. 10:5-18 |
| 33. Abolishment predicted--Is.51:6 | Establishment predicted--Heb. 8:7 |
| 34. Circumcision--Exod. 12:48 | No circumcision--Rom. 4:9-12 |
| 35. Changeable--Heb.7:12; Gal.3:25 | Made eternal--Heb. 13:20 |
| 36. Faulty--Heb. 8:7 | Perfect--James 1:25 |
| 37. Weak--Heb. 7:18 | Strong--Heb. 7:25 |
| 38. Unprofitable--Heb. 7:18 | Profitable--Heb. 7:19,25 |
| 39. Natural program--Heb. 9:10-14 | Spiritual program--2 Cor. 3:6,18 |
| 40. Daily program--Heb. 7:27 | Finished program--Heb.10:10-18 |
| 41. Infirm priests--Heb. 5:2, 7:28 | Perfect high priest--Heb.7:26 |
| 42. Priests by law--Heb. 7:12,28 | Made priests by oath--Heb.7:21,28 |
| 43. No salvation--Heb. 10:2-4 | Eternal salvation--Heb.5:9; 10:10 |
| 44. Perfected nothing--Heb. 7:19 | Perfects faithful--Hb.7:19; 10:14 |
| 45. Earthly priests--Heb. 5:1-4 | Heavenly priest--Heb. 9:24; 10:12 |
| 46. Repeated inability--Heb. 10:11 | Glorious success--Heb. 10:10-18 |
| 47. Many offerings--Heb. 9:7 | One offering--Heb. 10:10-14 |
| 48. Good promises--Deut. 28:1-14 | Better promises--Heb. 8:6 |
| 49. A good covenant--Rom. 7:12 | A better covenant--Heb. 7:22; 8:6 |
| 50. Many high priests--Heb. 7:23 | One high priest--Heb. 7:24-28 |
| 51. Typical tabernacle--Heb. 9 | True tabernacle--Heb. 8:2; 9:11 |
| 52. No mercy--Heb. 10:28 | Complete mercy--Heb. 8:12 |
| 53. Handmade things--Heb. 9:1-5,24 | Not handmade--Heb. 9:23,24 |
| 54. An old way--Heb. 8:13 | New and living way--Heb. 10:19,20 |
| 55. Unavailing ministers--Heb.7:18 | Able ministers--2 Cor. 3:6 |
| 56. Carnal ministry--Heb. 9:9,10 | Spiritual ministry--2 Cor. 3:6 |
| 57. Ministration of condemnation-- 2 Cor. 3:9 | Ministration of righteousness-- 2 Cor. 3:9 |
| 58. Glory covered--2 Cor. 3:13 | Glory uncovered--2 Cor. 3:18 |
| 59. Brings bondage--Gal. 4:24,25 | Brings liberty--2 Cor. 3:17 |
| 60. Cannot justify--Gal. 2:16 | Does justify--Acts 13:38,39 |
| 61. Brings a curse--Gal. 3:10 | Redeems from the curse--Gal. 3:13 |
| 62. Live by works--Gal. 3:10 | Live by faith--Gal. 3:11 |
| 63. Cannot give life--Gal. 3:21 | Does give life--John 6:63-68 |
| 64. Exposes sin--Gal. 3:19 | Covers sin--Rom. 4:1-8 |
| 65. Under law--Rom. 6:14,15 | Under grace--Gal. 3:22-25 |
| 66. Done away--2 Cor. 3:7-14 | Not done away--2 Cor. 3:11 |
| 67. Abolished--2 Cor. 3:13 | Continues glorious--2 Cor. 3:11 |
| 68. Ministry of death--2 Cor. 3:7 | Reconciliation ministry--2 Co.5:18 |
| 69. Only for Israel--Dt.4:7,8; 5:3 | For all men--Lk. 22:20; Mk. 14:2 |
Chart link here: Auburn.edu
167 comments:
Reminds me of the opening lyrics of an old Ray Stevens song. “There is none so blind as one who will not see”.
There are so much better and more thorough exegetics available on this topic than were ever taught or understood by Armstrongism.
BB
The ACOG cults still can't figure out the difference between old covenant & new covenant.
Jesus/Yeshua is regarded by his followers as the Christ or the Messiah. The first letter to the Corinthians states that Christ died for the sins of mankind according to the Scriptures (1 Cor 15:3). The only scriptures extant at that time was the Hebrew bible, now called Tanakh by the Jews and Old Testament (OT) by the Christians. The idea that the Messiah would die for the sins of mankind is not found anywhere in Tanakh. The Blue Letter Bible website (click here) lists 3 places in the OT that supposedly connect to 1 Cor 15:3. These are Isaiah 53:8-9, Psalm 22, and Psalm 40. All three are marked with asterisks, meaning these are mere allusions, and either misquoted or used as proof texts. The next paragraph highlights the danger of proof texting (taken from Wikipedia with reference to Elizabeth Tokar's book "Humorous Anecdotes Collected From a Methodist Minister"):
"A man dissatisfied with his life decided to consult the Bible for guidance. Closing his eyes, he flipped the book open and pointed to a spot on the page. Opening his eyes, he read the verse under his finger. It read, 'Then Judas went away and hanged himself' (Matthew 27:5b). Finding these words unhelpful, the man randomly selected another verse. This one read, 'Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."' (Luke 10:37b). In desperation, he tried one more time. The text he found was: 'What you are about to do, do quickly.'" (John 13:27)
Isaiah 53:8-9 is part of the Fourth Servant Song (Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12). The Servant is identified throughout the book of Isaiah as the nation of Israel (Isaiah 41:8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3). In Isaiah 43:10, the Servant is referred to as God's witnesses (plural). Surrounding chapters 52 and 54 describe the Jewish people as an afflicted individual who is finally vindicated by God. The one speaking in Isaiah 53:1-8 is not God or the prophet, but the gentile kings and nations of Isaiah 52:15. Initially, they will be startled and cover their mouths in unbelief as they witness the redemption of Israel, whom they have insulted, despised, rejected and persecuted (Ezekiel 36:6-9, 15; Jeremiah 30:8-13; Psalm 44:12-22). Isaiah 53:8 now reads "For the transgressions of my people (gentile nations) they (Israel) were stricken". The 'they' is from the Hebrew lamo which is plural and correctly translated in Isaiah 48:21 (caused the waters to flow for them). Since lamo is in poetic form, it can be translated as a collective noun but should be understood as more than one as in the KJV of Genesis 9:26 when speaking of Shem's descendants.
Isaiah 53 describes the Servant as despised, rejected, non-violent, truthful, and who was silent when led to the slaughter. Was Jesus despised and rejected? Read Mark 3:7-9 and Luke 4:14-15. Was he silent when led to the slaughter? Read John 18:36, Matthew 26:39 and 27:46. Was he non-violent? Read Matthew 10:34-35, Luke 22:36, John 2:14-15 and 18:36. Was he truthful? Read John 18:20 and Mark 4:10-12.
Notice Isaiah 53:10's If-Then in the NASB, JPS 1917 and 1985 versions. The NASB reads "... If he (Servant Israel) would render himself as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring ...". The guilt offering (Heb asham) involves admission or confession of sins. The offspring (Heb zera) is physical descendants, not spiritual (check all occurrences of zera).
What we find in Psalm 22 are verses that the New Testament (NT) erroneously considered as prophecies foretelling Jesus' sufferings. The author and speaker is David. The first few verses describe his anguish and feeling of being alone as he was hunted by his enemies and betrayed by his friends. In Psalm 22:16, almost all versions translate the Hebrew ka'ari as pierced. The correct translation is 'like a lion' (see JPS version). Lion is also found in surrounding verses (12-13, 20-21). The same Hebrew word is in Isaiah 38:13 and all versions translate it 'like a lion'.
Christians, to support their Christology, erroneously claim that the root word for ka'ari is krh, meaning 'to dig' or 'to excavate'. This is incorrect because the function of aleph in ka'ari could not be explained if it was the case. The Hebrew krh or karu is often used to mean digging the soil, not piercing the flesh (Genesis 26:25; Exodus 21:33; Numbers 21:18; Jeremiah 18:20, 22; Psalm 7:15, 57:6). This word is also in Psalm 40:6, literally "ears you have dug for me". By digging or excavating his ear, the Psalmist is able to hear and perceive what God desires. The Hebrew words that have the meaning of 'to pierce' are ratza and daqar. Some claim that ka'ari is actually ka'aru, a non-existent word that they gave the meaning 'to pierce'. To prove their point, they even read the Nahal Hever 5/6HevPs manuscript fragment as such. This manuscript is younger than the Dead Sea Scrolls and found 30 km south of Qumran. It's interesting that in this manuscript the ending of the word in question cannot be discerned correctly whether it is an elongated yod or a shortened vav. You can tell how sloppy the scribe was because the next word was misspelled.
Psalm 40:6-8 is misquoted or twisted in Heb 10:5-7. The author of Hebrews changes Psalm 40:6's 'but you have given me an open ear' to 'but a body you have prepared for me' in Heb 10:5. The author deliberately tampers Scripture to advance his Christology of Jesus' supposed sacrificial death.
God condemns human sacrifice (Leviticus 18:21, 20:2-5). Although He asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, His last minute intervention tells us that it was meant to test Abraham and His desire is not human sacrifice but animal sacrifice. Jesus' death was not a sacrifice. It was not shed upon the altar (Genesis 22:9, Leviticus 17:11). It did not atone for anyone's sins (Jeremiah 31:29-30, Ezekiel 18). According to Romans 4:5, Jesus justifies the ungodly. According to Proverbs 17:15, he who justifies the wicked is an abomination to Yehovah.
And here all this time I thought that it was Dave Pack , Rod Meredith , Gerald Flurry et.al, who wrote the "law on our hearts" and not Jesus through the agency of the Holy Spirit.
Now you've gone and lit the match in a dry forest Gary! Record number of comments about to hit!
"Record number of comments about to hit!" Highly unlikely.
Is there a way to print the list off? Those are great scripture references!!!
The New Covenant does not entail the writing of the codification of the law known as the Ten Commandments on the heart and mind. This is not what Paul wrote. One must sort out what law is being referenced in the relevant passages of scripture.
The literature on this topic is deep and broad and it is difficult to understand how Armstrongists seem to be able to so effectively avoid it. This topic is old and overworked and what is more interesting is what makes Armstrongists impervious to orthodox understanding of the New Covenant.
(Many Arstrongists believe the orthodox understanding is that the 10 Commandments have been abolished and this is equivalent to saying that lawlessness has now entered into the picture. Nothing could be more grossly misrepresented.)
I would conjecture that Armstrongists see the New Covenant as a kind of conspiracy to undermine the Old Covenant. Unless the New Covenant is carefully formulated by Armstrongist rescuers to incorporate significant parts of the Old Covenant. And the belief in the conspiracy is so great, that one need not really examine the issues. One can just mouth platitudes like the "Ten Commandments are written on our hearts."
Food for thought:
Which one of these lists is more like the old WCG and most current COGs?
Which one of these lists is more like the "World Tomorrow" we were always told about?
How is the real "World Tomorrow" different from the COG's "World Tomorrow"?
What conclusion does that cause one to come to?
Where was the error then?
I really got a chuckle out the title of this one! Somehow, it never occurred to me that participants in a scam would see themselves as being “pioneers”.
BB
"(Many Arstrongists believe the orthodox understanding is that the 10 Commandments have been abolished and this is equivalent to saying that lawlessness has now entered into the picture. Nothing could be more grossly misrepresented.)"
EXACTLY.
It's like saying that the first ten rules of learning to walk are:
1. Don't Go too fast
2. Don't fall
3. Don't stub your toe
4. Don't trip on your feet
5. Don't bump your head
6. Don't fall backwards
7. Don't lose your balance
8. Don't fall on your butt
9. Don't be afraid
10. Don't bang up your knees
And then saying that the better skill of actually walking to come means you forget about the first ten basics. You don't forget about the first ten basic dont's. The thing is, they are ingrained in your head, written in your brain, and you don't even have to think about those things when you get up in the morning to your first walk to the bathroom.
The basic laws of how to walk were fulfilled when the better skills of walking, jumping, hopping, and skipping were brought into reality. But these laws are not gone. They have been fulfilled and are permanently etched in your brain.
In the same way, the ten commandments for Christians are written in your heart through the revealing of the law of the spirit - righteousness, peace, joy, the fruits of the Spirit and righteousness through Christ in us. Those that knock a baby down who is first walking and forcing it to only think of the ten "dont's" are putting the baby in bondage and unnecessary restraint and burden. The baby deserves freedom now that walking has come. Those in Christ have freedom now that the New Covenant has come. Those laws are written on the hearts of God's people. It really is very simple.
Perhaps this is not the best analogy. But you don't have to be a biblical scholar breaking down every jot and tittle to understand the concept is not at all what Armstrong theology said it was. Many may disagree with this breakdown, and that's okay. This is my opinion and the best way I can share a little how I came to see things differently.
10:26
Not bad that analogy.
I once saw a documentary on one of western cultures iconic musicians trying to teach Chinese musicians classical music. Initially Beethoven sounded very chinese.
Prompting the teacher to say something akin to: "music is not the exact placing of the notes, music is what happens between those notes of the composer."
nck
Ariel Ben Noach said...
Jesus/Yeshua is regarded by his followers as the Christ or the Messiah. The first letter to the Corinthians states that Christ died for the sins of mankind according to the Scriptures (1 Cor 15:3 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ). The only scriptures extant at that time was the Hebrew bible, now called Tanakh by the Jews and Old Testament (OT) by the Christians. The idea that the Messiah would die for the sins of mankind is not found anywhere in Tanakh.
Except for the very beginning of scripture,Genesis 3:15...guess you overlooked that one right, Ariel-head...???
TK
You can use your cursor and highlight the chart and hit copy and then paste into Word or any other program you might be using.
You can also access it here. I put the link under the cart. For some reason, it did not paste over when I posted it.
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/fbf/compare.html
Sadly, I have a feeling most of the people who are on opposing viewpoints and subscribe to COG theology will completely ignore the chart and the scriptures contained and focus on the picture of the "long-haired Jesus" as the proof that the whole thing is false. Yes, that's how shallow some of them think.
On the one hand Richard Ames claims that God writs his laws in peoples hearts, while also claiming that members should put out effort to internalize these laws. This is a contradiction.
As a former member, I found many members, including ministers, who rejected the ten commandments in good measure. How does Richard explain this? Why did God fail to write His laws in their hearts?
If God writes His laws in peoples hearts, where is free moral agency? This doesn't make sense.
Ouch! There is going to be some major butthurt in Charlotte with this one! Thiel will need to share his tube of butthurt cream.
Anonymous 10:26 you wrote:
"In the same way, the ten commandments for Christians are written in your heart through the revealing of the law of the spirit - righteousness, peace, joy, the fruits of the Spirit and righteousness through Christ in us."
I understand what you mean and I believe you are right. But I think your terminology needs to be revisited. The terminology you use creates much trouble for people who are deceived by Armstrongism. This set of propositions will illustrate what I mean:
1. The Old Covenant was abolished including the passage that has come to be known as the 10 Commandments.
2. Each of the principles contained in the Old Covenant Ten were reiterated in the Sermon on the Mount and other places in the NT. Except the fourth concerning the Sabbath which underwent reimplementation in Christ. So we have the Mt. of Olives replacing Mt. Sinai.
3. So it is not theologically correct to say that the 10 commandments are written on your heart unless you mean the "ten commandments" as redefined in the NT and not the precise Old Covenant expression of those principles.
This seems like nothing but a mere semantic difference but it is not. It is rather a great source of error for the followers of Herbert Armstrong. They do not recognize the NT reimplementation of these principles. Instead they believe the literal 10 Commandments were "carried forward" along with a big bunch of other Old Covenant laws that have also been abolished. In particular, they have no recognition that the Sabbath has been re-implemented. And what you have is the classical conflation of the Old and New Covenants that to this day diverts the Armstrongists into heresy because they believe that the "carried forward" parts of the Old Covenant are required for salvation.
I think it was Herman Hoeh who decided what parts of the Old Covenant were still in force under the New Covenant. It wasn't Jesus or Paul or Peter or John.
I wasn't going to get off on this. Sorry.
"On the one hand Richard Ames claims that God writs (sic) his laws in peoples hearts, while also claiming that members should put out effort to internalize these laws",
Ames said God has written his laws on their hearts, and challenged the members to see "how thoroughly they have internalized God's law of love". First, this, again, is placing the Law, which scripture says hangs on the Great Law of Love, in reverse - making the Great Law of Love hang on the Law and the Prophets. It's a complete reversal of the way things are supposed to work. No, that's not how it works.
As I have read the articles by HWA and company over the years, I have found that such doublespeak to attempt to legitimize what cannot be legitimized is very common. You'll find them saying one thing one paragraph and then saying something totally opposite the next paragraph that somehow is supposed to tie in with the first paragraph, and then if you don't understand it, you just don't get it because you're not open to it.
It's something like "No, I never said that! Never! What I meant was THIS, I never said THAT! BUT! You have to remember THIS to understand THAT! And if you don't agree with THIS and THAT you were NEVER CONVERTED IN THE FIRST PLACE! and you have to understand THIS and THAT to GET THERE! WE ALL NEED TO SPEAK THE SAME THING! So keep supporting me, as I am the ONLY one who can tell THEM THIS AND THAT and YOU CAN ONLY GET THERE THROUGH ME!!! SO SEND ME MONEY AND SUPPORT THIS GREAT INCREDIBLE WORK OF THIS AND THAT!!!"
And then we'd get out our Bibles to understand how this relates to that and highlight texts and write in margins to understand how and why this and that relates to them and to us and if anyone told us that this and that isn't the this and that that THEY told us they were we would accuse them of not understanding how we understood.
Reference the "Difficult Scriptures" manual for some classic this or that dissonance.
So what was our next line of thinking? "Well, we may not always understand it but this is God's Church and it'll all work out. Just keep the Sabbath and the Holy Days and it's all good....."
Near Earth Object said:
"I understand what you mean and I believe you are right. But I think your terminology needs to be revisited"
Near Earth Object also stated:
"2. Each of the principles contained in the Old Covenant Ten were reiterated in the Sermon on the Mount and other places in the NT. Except the fourth concerning the Sabbath which underwent reimplementation in Christ. So we have the Mt. of Olives replacing Mt. Sinai.
3. So it is not theologically correct to say that the 10 commandments are written on your heart unless you mean the "ten commandments" as redefined in the NT and not the precise Old Covenant expression of those principles. "
My reply:
Yes, thank you for the important clarification. Of course this may spawn the whole Sabbath argument once again, but the entire principles of the New Covenant and New Testament teachings cannot possibly be understood without that missing piece of the puzzle that you have kindly provided. I wish many could also understand that the Sabbath -as given to Israel - was just a shadow of what is now found in the rest that Christ in us gives through the ministry and fruits of the Spirit. Of course, Armstrongism (and other seventh-day denominations) strongly detest that interpretation.
True Bread,
Gen 3:15, 13:16, 15:5, 16:10, 17:19, 22:17 seed = Israel
"Feed my sheepS"?
Was Paul really a "Pharisee of Pharisees"? He was not a Hebrew scholar, he was a Hellenist.
Below came from https://biblethingsinbibleways.wordpress.com/tag/epimenides/
Gal 5:23b
Paul says, Against such there is no law.
Roman 2:14b
Paul says, Are a law unto themselves.
Paul’s words are eerily familiar to Aristotle‘s saying of men eminent for wisdom and virtue, “Against such there is no law, for they themselves are a law,”
Murder was against the law. If ALL the law is really done away, then murder is now OK.
True Bread refutes Ariel Ben Noach's "idea that the Messiah would die for the sins of mankind is not found anywhere in Tanakh" with the gratuitously snarky rejoinder: "Except for the very beginning of scripture, Genesis 3:15...guess you overlooked that one right, Ariel-head...???"
Was True Bread just citing a verse more or less at random, counting on us to trust that it mentioned the coming of a messiah, followed by his sacrifice to obliterate the guilt that Adam and Eve had just incurred on behalf of all humanity? All it says is, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
This is obviously a "just-so" story from Middle East folklore to explain why venomous snakes exist, and why human beings detest them so much. The poster derisively called "Ariel-head" was completely justified in overlooking it, because it does not apply to the topic of a messiah at all. A fine example of what Dennis calls "Making scripture mean what it never meant."
Herbert Armstrong, Gerald Weston, David Pack, Gerald Flurry are the liars and are NOT Bible Scholars.
Anon 2:28 said:
"Murder was against the law. If ALL the law is really done away, then murder is now OK. "
I think the issue here is the confusion that has arisen regarding "done away" and "fulfilled". There really is no one to blame for this then the so-called "experts" at COG who were very cunning in their deceitful doctrines regarding law and grace.
In the days of the OT, the Nation of Israel, steeped in wickedness, had to be literally told the very basic command - don't kill. This wasn't expounded on in detail about issues of the heart, or how thoughts of this sort of evil even counted.
In the NT, Jesus expounds on this that even the thoughts of hatred and evil or of killing counted as the actual act itself. Therefore, it wasn't just the stopping of the physical act anymore - now it involves matters of the heart and attitude.
Enter the fruits of the spirit, where the Spirit changes a person from the inside out. Now, with Christ working from the inside out, there no longer needs to be a written list of do's or dont's. With Christ in you working in a living relationship with a person, a person is a new creation, whose heart wouldn't even think of such an act, not just refrain from carrying it out because of the jots and tittles on parchment. This is the difference between the OT laws written on stone and the law of love written on the heart.
This is the very fulfillment brought by the indwelling of the Spirit that causes good fruits. This is how the law was fulfilled, by Christ in us. This changes everything on how the law is applied, because it is now permanent, indwelling, and eternal, affecting how you think, feel, live, and love, all the time. It changes who you are, not just what you do. It changes how you exist all the time, not just what you do on certain times and dates and seasons. When Christ is in you, everything about you becomes who you are. You become different not based on how well you keep things, but because your mind is at one with Christ.
To say there is no law when "done away" is mentioned implies that Christ is not in you, which is the exact opposite of what scripture says, and really that statement makes little sense if thought of in this light. The fulfillment is done by Christ now having a personal indwelling relationship with His people, where before, their only hope for pleasing God was a simplistic code of law minus the relationship element that was impossible at the time.
Mr True Bread has a tendency towards putting people down for their ideas before he corrects them with worse ideas
@2:33 ~ there goes our troll again.
Actually, in trying to finally dial everything in, bring it all together, so to speak, I went through about a ten year period restudying the whole danged mess. Just about wore out my TNIV study Bible, and my New American. Read some Bart Ehrman, the entire works of Josephus, anything I could find in English by the Ante Nicene Fathers, the works of Eusebius, and also the writings of some of the more respected contemporary theologians and scholars.
The problem is, most of us want to know what God says, not what man says. Because it’s what God brings to the party that can differentiate and transform. The most common pitfall is making an attempt to get as close to God as possible by learning from fellow humans whom we believe to know more than we do, or who are closer to God than we are. Most of these folks are “collectors”. None of them has 100% pure unadulterated truth, they all make leaps, and at least in our case in the past, the collectors demanded that you signed up for their entire package, or they didn’t want you at all. The whole package, or no Kingdom for you!
There are many pivotal Bible topics, not the least of which is the meaning of the New Covenant, which can be debated successfully from several different perspectives. Most people just do a little due dilligence (like reading “proof texts”, pick one interpretation, and go with that for life, unless something shakes them up and they are forced to reexamine.
For me, the bottom line is that there are some very good higher principles in the Bible, some being timeless in nature. They break bad cycles. However, there isn’t enough clarity upon which one could seriously base a one size fits all system of legalism. Attempting that was man-made religion. Matt. 25:40 assures us that the avenue through which you demonstrate your love for God is through the love you show for fellow man. Did you abstain from sex on the sabbath, and then turn your head and refuse to help a poor family who was out of gas and money on Sunday? How did that put any good back into the system’s figurative bank? What would you hope would be the outcome if you and your family were in a similar situation. The Golden Rule is an equal opportunities paradigm that works amongst the entire spectum of humanity. There are even times when we must Golden Rule someone who starts out being hostile to us.
Royal Law of Love, Golden Rule, Beatitudes, and the Sermon on the Mount pretty much summarize the New Covenant. Some prefer to co-mingle the covenants soas to oppress, control, co-opt and enslave. These oppressors have failed to realize that there are some things that one simply cannot do on command. And if your heart can’t be in it, does it even count in the first place? (Amos 5:21, Isaiah 1:14)
This is a heavy subject. In the past, these types of topics have resulted in some launching into programmed Armstrong eisogenic rebuttals. I hope we’re past that. That cuts about as much ice with most of us as JWs spouting the rebuttals they study at Kingdom Hall. Kind of annoying. Best to keep an open mind, and question those standard rebuttals. They’re part of reselling a belief system.
BB
I have a question for Richard Ames. If LCG is as great as all that, how should I understand Gerald Weston's recent letter in which he brags about sending out just 246,000 booklets in 2017? Am I not supposed to look at my old LCG letters and magazines and remember that, ten years ago, LCG was doing a much more powerful Work and distributing much more literature than today? LCG is spiritually dead, and displays little or nothing of the fruits of the Spirit.
This is obviously a "just-so" story from Middle East folklore to explain why venomous snakes exist, and why human beings detest them so much.
Well, obviously. So obvious, we all knew that all along.
On the other hand, it's hard to believe that one of the first and most important lessons in the bible was written just to explain why we don't like snakes. Where is the chapter that explains why we don't like spiders?
This is a heavy subject.
It only feels heavy...to a light-weight bible "scholar".
Sounds like the law is fulfilled by Christ in us, which means that if we don't keep the law, we don't have Christ in us. So if we don't keep the law, we are toast.
And why does Christ in us bother to keep the law if He knows it is done away?
LCG is spiritually dead, and displays little or nothing of the fruits of the Spirit.
How much literature did you send out?
We atheists have it so easy now. No worry about any covenants with fictitious gods. I'll never get the years back that I wasted on all that drivel, but I'm at least finally free of it. I can settle down to just being a decent, caring human being with solid moral principles and humanist ethics.
We atheists have it so easy now ... I can settle down to just being a decent, caring human being ...
The atheists keep telling us God had to be invented to keep us good. Then they say they don't need God to be good. I wish they would make up their minds.
Ah! Another driveby courtesy of “the poopie”! (5:37)
No, heavyweight devout Bible scholars have been debating this issue for millennia, and the more you delve into all of that, the more questions are raised, in fact more questions than answers. That is the way great minds work! Acclaimed teachers have been going with their educated guesses and teaching them as truths, founding huge organizations and gaining myriad followers. These are obviously able to establish common denominator with and to reach a broad cross section of humanity. There will also always be those whom when you agree with them, will think of you as having a wonderful mind and being a great scholar.
Jesus appeared to be spiritually breeding empaths. So many of the “best guessers” have ruined the beauty of that whole thing and either used it to exploit, control, and oppress, or to cause the martyr syndrome in their followers, to foment elitism and condescension towards those who believe differently, as well as self-righteousness, and obsessive-compulsive behavior. There is certainly a setting adequately described by the words “narcissistic Christianity”, and Armstrongism is that setting!
From non-believers, we’ve heard the term “God-haunted”. To me that doesn’t just describe the state of being a believer. It means being so arrogant that you hold God accountable for all of the bad things and the good things that happen to you. You’re alternately pissed off at Him, and extremely happy with him, and it’s all your imagination you are fighting because most of the things that impact us are random, and it’s how we handle them that counts. We often learn more from our failures than from our successes.
As I’ve said in the past, HWA did teach us to rehydrate regularly, drinking plenty of water, and that is the only thing I’ve found to be practical or salvageable from Armstrongism!
BB
So it’s Stalin now? What happened to your Trotsky of a couple months back?
I’ve got many reasons of my own for participating in this site, but it’s not my entire life. I actually do work about 40-60 hours per week. This site is part of my relaxation activity, and I derive very little of my self worth from this site or what happens on it. Do you know that Nikkola Tesla usually only got two hours of sleep per night and yet lived to the ripe old age of 86?
BB
Anonymous said...
Mr True Bread has a tendency towards putting people down for their ideas before he corrects them with worse ideas
Look you little basement dweller...I was using sarcasm to make my point, which has seemed to do the trick. I'm guessing by your put-down that you object to scripture, and that you think that is a "worse idea" to quote it....we've all read your comment now, and we are all stupider for doing so...and may God have mercy on your soul...
Anonymous Retired Prof said...
True Bread refutes Ariel Ben Noach's "idea that the Messiah would die for the sins of mankind is not found anywhere in Tanakh" with the gratuitously snarky rejoinder: "Except for the very beginning of scripture, Genesis 3:15...guess you overlooked that one right, Ariel-head...???"
It's so easy to pluck the nerves of you "Prof" and people like "the dude", who so sanctimoniously post here blaspheming the Messiah...Airhead tried to make the case that there were no OT scriptures pointing to a Messiah, and I bitch-slapped him so hard he started pouting about it, kinda like you...I proved him, and now you, wrong so what's the point in considering anything else you have to say...??
And just exactly what did you retire from prof...Transgendered LGBTxyz studies...???
I've been a professional educator for over thirty years, and your lack of intellect makes me question your credentials...
Blogger Ariel Ben Noach said...
True Bread,
Gen 3:15, 13:16, 15:5, 16:10, 17:19, 22:17 seed = Israel
Give me a break airhead....are you claiming that A&E were Israelites...??? I'm beginning why you even bother posting here if you don't have a basic understanding of scripture. And you changed the subject...you claimed that there were no OT scriptures speaking of a future Messiah, and I proved you wrong....why should anyone bother to listen to your atheistic nonsense any longer...?? Why do you even keep posting on Banned..?? Did you spend a very large portion of your life in the WCG/GCG/LCG/ICG/TriumphCG, or go to AC....??? If not then get lost...
TK
What atheist says that or ever said that, 7:29? The invention of gods made men evil. Millions have been killed and tortured by religion. Religion always ends up producing evil, and Washington, D.C. is swimming in evil right now brought on us by that damn ignorant Bible belt.
Allen
You seem to ignore that communism and left wing-ism are also religions. The commies are responsible for the deaths of at least 100 million people during the twentieth century. How many people have bible belters murdered?
12:52
True. Man is inherently "tuned to religion", as a matter of fact it IS what makes us human, since the power to imagine things is the same mechanism as the power of self reflection. This trait extends far and above the religions defined by "textbooks". It is the spark that produces, music, arts, religion and everything creative under the sun.
And yes, could be misguided to kill a hundred million or more under any disguise. Just like the nice family fathers in england, rioting a their football club in the weekend, while being on time for work on mondays. Just like the family men commanding the concentration camps, playing some piano music with the kids after "a days hard work".
It is the human condition. I love religious people. And thank God for the atheists keeping the balance. People should stop quarelling for dominance and work together (as the communist theory was so perfectly clear about while they send the plowshare statue (hedge) to the United Nations HQ in New York as a symbol, the same one that was in the Ambassador Gardens.
nck
Todd Kallenback of True Bread notes:
Look you little basement dweller...I was using sarcasm to make my point, which has seemed to do the trick.
and I bitch-slapped him so hard he started pouting about it, kinda like you...I proved him, and now you, wrong so what's the point in considering anything else you have to say...??
Give me a break airhead.."
Todd, your manner of communicating here with others you disagree with , have never met and don't know their own experience with the Church of God does not help your cause as the giver of "True Bread"
Your sarcasm , all SARCASM, is merely ANGER TURNED SIDEWAYS and it shows. Why don't you tone down the childish responses to good folk of differing views and experiences for yours and everyone's sake. You'll notice few if any others respond to others they way you do with labels and name calling.
Your comments and personal attacks on the views and integrity of others here lower the standards I'm sure all of us would like to maintain here on Banned as we wend our way through the Church of God experiences and the antics of the self appointed Prophets, Priests, Apostles and Presiding Types which leads people even further away from understanding the easy yokes and light burdens this blog posting is highlighting.
We're all just people here Todd processing a "I must have had shit for brains" experience and hoping, perhaps, to contribute to others, on many topics and perspectives, not doing the same or dragging out the process of letting it go to their harm.
ACOG troll at 5:42 PM asked:
How much literature did you send out?
I sent out exactly as much as my ACOG minister believed was appropriate: 0. It was my tithes and offerings that supported LCG's sending out literature ten years ago and that supported LCG's sending out literature last year. The point isn't that LCG sends out more literature than I send. The point is that LCG has a much larger income today than ten years ago, but is doing less to preach the gospel than they were doing ten years ago. LCG has turned inward like most of the other ACOG groups. If you don't see this, you're either on their payroll, or blinded, or both.
Actually, Richard Ames likes to promote the old Tkach idea of "personal evangelism." No, I don't write my own booklets, but I do share Christ's message when asked. Using Gerald Weston's numbers of donor households and booklets sent, each donor household on average funded 22 booklets being sent. While I haven't counted, I'm sure that in 2017 I had more than 22 religion-related conversations with neighbors, officemates, and friends. Maybe I really have "sent out" more of the gospel per person than LCG! Thank you, 5:42 PM, for helping me recognize this fact!
"Chains of Love" (1988) (new-wave synthpop) Erasure.
A tune to take your mind off Tkach-wealth-enslavement-legalism-cult in the 1980's.
I am just now coming out of Armstrongism and this chart is extremely helpful.
When you are in LCG or any other ACOG they reference the same scriptures over and over again, completely ignoring pretty much everything on this list... anything that shows how wrong they are.
Most members, myself included, study what they tell us to study and read the letters, magazines and booklets put out by them. Of course that's exactly what they want because to actually study the ENTIRE Bible causes one's eyes to be opened to what a sham Armstrongism is.
It's mind blowing that the average legalist can either completely ignore or rationalize alternative meanings out of such easily understood scriptures.
I was so sad when I was disfellowshipped from LCG but now I can see what an awesome and total act of love it was from my Father in heaven to purge me from that false religion and out from under the tyranny of men and faux friends who demonstrate the exact opposite of they type of character Christians should be demonstrating.
I will never be able to express my profound gratitude for LCGs rejection.
Praise to the Most High!
If you are reading this and you are in LCG, please look up these scriptures. Pray for God to open your eyes to His Word. Consider the possibility that you have bought a pack of lies by men like HWA and RCM. Let the Word of God draw you nearer to Him which will simultaneously draw you further and further away from Armstrongism.
Thank you for posting Banned :)
"What atheist says that or ever said that, 7:29?"
You've never heard the saying, "If God did not exist he would have to be invented"? That's the atheist way of saying God was just invented.
Anon 6:21 AM, your own example refutes your contention that it's an atheist opinion. The very first phrase, "if God did not exist," assumes that God does exist, so it is just silly to attribute the quotation to an atheist.
You will never be able to argue effectively till you learn how to read.
"Murder was against the law. If ALL the law is really done away, then murder is now
OK." (After all Donald Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and his base - including almost all evangelicals - would not abandon him.)
This is the typical reaction of people who do not understand the boundaries of the debate. Saying that the Ten Commandments (a specific expression of principles contained in the Old Testament)are abolished is greeted with great alarm. But the New Covenant reinstates all the principles contained in the Old Testament version except the 4th commandment which is implemented in another way. Murder is forbidden under the New Covenant. You have to have never read the New Covenant to make the statement quoted above.
Another point. Doing away with something does not mean that it can no longer be observed. What it means is that it is no longer a requirement for salvation. I can keep the Sabbath for my cultural enrichment - I just cannot tell people that it is a requirement for salvation - that is heresy. At the Jerusalem Conference in Acts, Gentiles were only required to do certain things. But the Jewish community no doubt continued to do much more that was defined in the OT. But these things retained now as traditions by the Jewish Christian community are not required for salvation.
Note carefully. The Armstrongist churches are not like the Jerusalem Church at all - though some, including Hoeh, have asserted this. The Armstrongist churches require parts of the Old Covenant for salvation, unlike the Jerusalem church. The Armstrongist practice is blatant heresy and is founded on the writing of Armstrong and Hoeh and not the Bible.
All across the Southern tier of states in the United States, Southern Baptist ministers have made being a member of the Republican Party a requirement for salvation. My wife's aunt's congregation in the South was told from the pulpit that if they were Democrats and voted Democratic, they would go to hell.
I think we can all see the ludicrous nature of this. But, in principle, this is what the Armstrongists have done by overloading salvation with non-requirements.
"The Armstrongist churches are not like the Jerusalem Church at all"
Whoa! I wonder now if the Jerusalem church was actually christian OR jewish.
The armstrongist installment that a man ought not to have long hair is a clear indication that the armstrongists lean to the "roman faction" within the jerusalem quarters. Especially with their eyes set on "government" and "pax" as the ultimate goal.
nck
the old covenant was physical blessings for physical obedience...
the new takes it to a higher plane, spiritual blessing (eternal life) for spiritual obedience....the sermon on the mount makes it very clear, for those with ears to hear...the carnal mind is unable to submit to God's law.
for example, not only must one refrain from physically murdering another, one must not be angry at another without cause (real cause, not some self justified feeling)...
it all goes back to God's calling....no one else can understand these things, as the list of "proofs" shows. (whoever put that list together probably thinks they've done a wonderful thing)
Let's be honest.
The reason most here don't want to go by the "Armstrong" version of the New Covenant is that you simply don't want to be told what to do, i.e. keep the 7th day Sabbath, the NT Holy Days, tithing, eat certain meats, among others - even though the Bible is clear as day about the veracity of "Armstrong's" (or Ames') teachings.
Even though you will readily dismiss this, you've simply allowed yourselves to be fooled and bamboozled into believing that the God Armstrong supposedly made-up is the/a false god.
And being that Armstrong's god is a false God, then it "has" to be dismissed. And being that "my God", you say to yourself, "doesn't require anything of me except "believing" (whatever that means, because, after all, there is no real standard to go by), "then I have the freedom" (whatever that is, because again, there is no standard to go by) "to follow what I believe to be the real truth of the matter."
We all have the freedom to do what we want to do. Even God's word the Bible teaches that, but every one of us also has the God-given freedom to suffer the natural consequences of our choices.
Armstrongism has never known or taught anything about Noahide or Noachide Law, the seven laws given unto Noah. HWA erroneously taught that the ten commndments, sabbath, and holy days, clean meats, and other elements of the law were all first given to Adam and Eve in the garden, and that mankind lost or perverted this over time, so Moses had to reiterate it for the Israelites at Sinai. This is why Armstrongism failed to understand the edict of the first Jerusalem Council, as read by James, and its implications.
Proper understanding of James’s statement would have elliminated much of the extra hardship and legalistic dos and don’ts which Armstrongism has always imposed on its followers.
Obviously, our troll is going to want to get into the act on this one, so in anticipating and pre-empting his comment on scholarship, I’d advise anyone to make a few mouse clicks, take a few moments, and read up on the “The Seven Laws of Noah”. You are going to learn about the Book of Jubilees, and will also gain some exposure to Nachmanides, and Maimonides.
Also make a study of the implications of circumcision. To not be circumcised meant that one was not permitted to enter certain areas of the temple, or to participate in major temple rituals. When the Jerusalem Council did not make circumcision a requirement for gentile Christians, it had further implications than just sparing them the pain of having their penises customized.
Knowledge is power. This topic could be a game-changer for entrenched Armstrongites. Check it out!
BB
Christians claim that Gen 3:15 speaks of the Messiah. No logical person would assume that Christians are claiming that Abraham or Esau was the Messiah.
I never made a comment that there was no OT scripture speaking of a future Messiah. The OT speaks of the coming of the Messiah to bring about the Messianic Age (Hosea 3:4-5). This age ushers in the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-37), a time when God's laws will be written on our hearts (v33) and everyone will know Yehovah (v34). Both are components of the New Covenant.
9:00, do you have anything deeper for us than just the same old cliches and shibboleths? To many of us, your statements are indicative of a real lack of depth and understanding, not only of the Bible, but of human nature as well. Maybe a little more research would help?
Anonymous 9:00 AM
"Even though you will readily dismiss this, you've simply allowed yourselves to be fooled and bamboozled into believing that the God Armstrong supposedly made-up is the/a false god."
Interesting that you brought this up. First, as a Christian who follows the New Covenant, I have been told what to do and it is not to follow the heretical notions of Herbert Armstrong who has added many OT requirements to the mechanism of salvation.
And, HWA did not worship the Christian God. I have not wanted to make this bald statement but it is true. The God that HWA worshipped is nothing like the God of Christianity or even God as other religions know him, or God as philosphers know him.
HWA worshipped what is called a Demiurge. This is a "god", small 'g', that fabricated and organized the universe. But also a god that does not rise to the level of The God. There is much here so I will simplify it to one example. HWA's Demiurge did not create the universe Ex Nihilo. Anyone would agree, Christian, atheist, philospher, that this is one of the criteria of the Un-caused First Cause that we think of as The God.
HWA's Demiurge did not start with nothing. The Demiurge started with spacetime and lots of operating principles of physics, etc. And within spacetime, it created matter and energy, etc. Nowhere in HWA's writings or the writings of his minions is there a Doctrine of God that asserts that HWA's god created Ex Nihilo. (BTW, Hawkings, Hitchens, Dennett and Dawkins all focus on a Demiurge and not God.)
In fact, the Demiurge lives inside of spacetime just like we do. And then we load into this package all of the anthropomorphic language of the OT, that HWA erroneously attributed to his god, and we have pretty much the classical Demiurge known from many non-Christian religions. The Demiurge lives inside spacetime, has a body, eats food, must speak with a voice, must see with eyes, creates things with his hands.
HWA claimed that his church had the true name "church of God." But one cannot assign that name legitimately unless one knows something about the attributes of God. HWA knew only a Demiurge.
Kyriacos Starvinides presented the attributes of the true God to Armstrongists in Pasadena back in about 1992 at a series of Bible studies and it occasioned much anger and disenchantment (as did the later "God is" booklet). This is because Armstrongists only know Herbert's concocted Demiurge.
Armstrongism left the track at the outset with a heretical and inadequate Doctrine of God - something that is in every Systematic Theology of other Christian denominations.
To use HWA's language, in theology The Doctrine of God is the "trunk of the tree." This trunk is poorly defined in Armstrongism and what we do know if it is in error.
The New Covenant is...confusing say the least. Go to any church anywhere, and they'll give you a different explanation of it. Even you COG haters know this to be true. Or maybe not. Seeing some of the comments here, not too many of you have any critical thinking skills to know that even mainstream Christianity doesn't have one version of the NC. You're just too wrapped up in your hate and confusion to see it.
9:00 AM is a fearful ACOG minister afraid of losing his control and his paycheck, which would force him to get a real job and do real work. He is deathly afraid of the rent veil that gave every Christian direct access to their High Priest.
Sorry, 9:00 AM, we don't want you to tell us what to do. We are busy enough trying to use the Holy Spirit to live up to Jesus Christ's magnifications of your Old Covenant commandments. "Freedom"? It was Rod Meredith who used to say that if HWA could so something, so could he. That's not the freedom of the New Covenant. When you are bound by the Old Covenant, "freedom" may seem like "freedom to sin" but that isn't what it's like for a true Christian. Freedom in Christ isn't the "freedom" to tell a father that his mixed-race child is a "blob." Freedom in Christ is freedom from fear, not freedom to sin.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Let's be honest.
The reason most here don't want to go by the "Armstrong" version of the New Covenant is that you simply don't want to be told what to do, i.e. keep the 7th day Sabbath, the NT Holy Days, tithing, eat certain meats, among others - even though the Bible is clear as day about the veracity of "Armstrong's" (or Ames') teachings.
This is very typical COG response that it all has to do with either authority or rebellion. So let me be honest. In my view, you do not know what you are talking about. The Bible may seem clear as day to you. However, that is only with a lack of understanding, knowledge, and context as it comes to Biblical matters. To me, it is clear as day that those teachings were valid for a certain people, a certain time, and a certain place, for a certain reason. A little bit of study will lead you to another conclusion then either Armstrong's or Ame's teachings. Simply said - they have never been intended for those whom COG's attempt to enforce them on. That's what's clear as day. And I am sure you will readily dismiss this.
Even though you will readily dismiss this, you've simply allowed yourselves to be fooled and bamboozled into believing that the God Armstrong supposedly made-up is the/a false god.
I am neither fooled, nor bamboozled, even though I am well aware you do not believe this, nor will anything I say here or anyone has said on this thread convince you otherwise. I reject Armstrongism based on multiple reasons which have been detailed here. Since you have obviously read them, and obviously dismiss them, it serves me no purpose to highlight them again. Your mind is made up, my mind is made up, and I believe the best course is simply to agree to disagree. I do not hold you any ill will for your beliefs, nor judgement. We shall all answer to God for our decisions in due time.
And being that Armstrong's god is a false God, then it "has" to be dismissed. And being that "my God", you say to yourself, "doesn't require anything of me except "believing" (whatever that means, because, after all, there is no real standard to go by), "then I have the freedom" (whatever that is, because again, there is no standard to go by) "to follow what I believe to be the real truth of the matter."
Saying there is no standard to go by is absolutely untrue. The standard is fulfilled in two great commands: Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. That's the most real standard you can ever get. The Bible says that where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. I would suggest you study a little further into Acts 13:39, Romans 6, and Romans 8:2.
We all have the freedom to do what we want to do. Even God's word the Bible teaches that, but every one of us also has the God-given freedom to suffer the natural consequences of our choices
On this, you and I are in agreement, except I have a different perspective then your perspective. Yours is based on "obedience to Law", I would suspect. My perspective is based on those subject to the Law, for the Bible specifically addresses that point in Galatians 3:10.
Throughout this thread, one thing is made abundantly clear. COG's and those who have different belief systems are never going to be able to convince each other of "their own versions of truth". Everyone from atheists to agnostics to COG's to mainstream Christians have contributed in this thread, and, with a couple of notable exceptions, we've all been fairly civil. The only way we are able to get along is to do what we have never been able to do if we were together in the same building or bingo hall that we can do online: Talk about it. At least we've accomplished that in this thread.
On Mar. 20, @ 4:38 I alluded to these same varying interpretations, 12:18. It’s why I’m a lone ranger Christian, unchurched.
So far as picking a church goes, I once heard a radio preacher counsel that you should study carefully and prayerfully, and then choose a Bible-based church which conforms to what you’ve learned, and abide by its authority structure. (He was not part of Armstrongism) That immediately struck me as being a dead-end to all further growth and education. Truth is something you spend your lifetime discovering, not a destination. There’s the old addage: What do you do before enlightenment? Find food, chop wood, find water. What do you do after enlightenment? Find food, chop wood, find water.
You are also correct that over the years, there have been some posters who need to put each of us in a box, before actually taking the time to get to know us as individuals, so that their comments towards us would have some validity. These are binary thinkers, their minds limited to little i-o switches processing all incoming information. I’ve had to laugh at some of the labels people have hung on me over the years. Mentioning the Antenicene Fathers gets you pinned as a Jesuit type. Mention that you are Christian, and some dredge up the worst stereotype of an Evangelical and throw them in your face, meaning that you’ve got to go into lengthy explanations over, and over and over before bringing things back to the real discussion.
But, stick around. There’s a heck of a lot more good around here than there is bad.
BB
"Seeing some of the comments here, not too many of you have any critical thinking skills to know that even mainstream Christianity doesn't have one version of the NC."
Sorry, this is not true. The bulk of Christianity is in agreement on the main points of Christianity. As an example, we can take the following two principles:
1. Salvation is by grace through faith.
2. Salvation is by grace through faith plus works such as the Sabbath, the Holydays, tithing, deleavening your home, being obedient to the ministry, ad nauseum.
Christian denominations will align with point 1 above. Jesus Plus cults, like Armstrongism, will align with some form of point 2 above. The works will vary.
It is an old and false Millerite platitude that the denominations do not know what the Bible says and they do not even know what they believe. It is rather the Armstrongist branch of the Millerites that do not know what the Bible says and what they even believe. The empirical evidence is the breathtaking number of competing fragment churches that have arisen out of the original WCG - all believing that they have the inside track on the truth about something - usually some arcane prophecy or issue of church government.
The misconceptions and debates over what constitutes the New Covenant and who has to do or not do what to be a part of it gets lost in the belief that Peter, James, John and Paul all taught the same thing about it and all agreed with each other on the issues of law and grace. They did not as I have noted many times before and will spare us.
The Jewish Christian perspective was found in Peter, James and John who took Christianity as an update on Judaism with Jesus at the center. Paul went further than they did which is why the Acts 15 "Conference" put gentiles who wanted become Christians under the same rules for Gentiles to become Jewish, namely, the Noahide Rules. None of them contained the Holydays or Sabbath and the only food rules were not to eat that which was offered to idols. Paul went on to make fun of those who worried even about this in I Corinthians and negated it calling it a weak position to adopt etc.
You simply can't have Peter, James and John AND Paul as if they all spoke the same thing. The politics of the day were just as they are still today and Paul was universally hated by the Jewish Christian Church to the point of probably being one of those who said they were apostles "and were not" or were found wanting in the letter to the Ephesians in Revelation and rejected by the church and the church praised for it by Revelation Jesus.
Long boring story for most. But it is a key to understanding the confusion over law and grace and was Paul for it or against it and in what way. James was written to refute Paul's Roman's in this view.
There is the Sunday School/Sabbath School version of the New Covenant and there is the reality and politics of the times with men positioning themselves then as today for the final say.
God may not be the author of confusion but the rift between the early apostles and Paul sure is.
12.18 PM
While it is true that mainstream Christianity doesn't have just one version of the New Covenant, the differences aren't significant. If one watches the Tele evangelists, their message and map of reality is very similar. If one considers what they repeat and what they keep ignoring (eg the parable of the sower and the parable of the talents), it becomes obvious that Mainstream Christianity has become homogenized.
In fact, if one scratches the surface, one finds that their moral theology is the same as that in the political realm. Christianity has been hijacked by politics. Just as there are infinite minor variations within a political ideology, there is likewise the same in any religion. These aren't significant, though their adherents claim otherwise.
My wife's aunt's congregation in the South was told from the pulpit that if they were Democrats and voted Democratic, they would go to hell.
Are you suggesting that this is a crazy idea? Is it any crazier than a million other things people believe? It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that voting for any pro-abortion party is accessory to murder, so I can see his point. Not sure if Republican's are still anti-abortion though. Then there are the pro-war parties, but America has two of those, and so voting for either one could send you to hell I suppose. Helps to explain why Armstrongists don't vote at all.
Anon 6:21 AM, your own example refutes your contention that it's an atheist opinion. The very first phrase, "if God did not exist," assumes that God does exist, so it is just silly to attribute the quotation to an atheist.
Regardless of your interpretation, the statement is in fact made by atheists who use sarcasm to ridicule God's existence. It does not have to be "logical". Who said all atheists are logical?
"If God did not exist, he would have to be invented"
According to the link below, this was originally said by Voltaire. The interpretation varies. Note one of the comments made on the site, reads as follows, emphasis mine.
"This statement was made as part of his larger argument that the existence of God and/or belief in God are beneficial and necessary for civilized society to function. The larger context of the debate in which he was engaged at the time indicates that he did not intend this statement to be an ironic quip essentially claiming that God is fictional, as it is commonly used today."
https://www.quora.com/What-did-Voltaire-mean-when-he-said-that-if-God-did-not-exist-it-would-be-necessary-to-invent-him
I have always heard the expression used sarcastically, to imply that God was invented.
God does not change, so if Christ fulfilled the law, then Christ in us is fulfilling the law today. So if we don't keep the law, there is no evidence that Christ is in us. But Satan might be.
The reason most here don't want to go by the "Armstrong" version of the New Covenant is that you simply don't want to be told what to do...
They don't want to be told what to do by Armstrong or God or Luther or the Pope or any denomination or ANYONE! Well, except their wives. That's how godless weenie men end up...with no authority to run the family. These cucks become ATM's and get raped by the family courts while another guy bangs the ex.
"The armstrongist installment that a man ought not to have long hair is a clear indication that the armstrongists lean to the "roman faction" within the jerusalem quarters. Especially with their eyes set on "government" and "pax" as the ultimate goal."
It's a clear indication that they read the bible. Nothing more than that. Don't make it into a thesis about trying to take over Rome, or whatever the heck you're trying to make it into.
DennisCDiehl said...
Todd Kallenback of True Bread notes:
Look you little basement dweller...I was using sarcasm to make my point, which has seemed to do the trick.
and I bitch-slapped him so hard he started pouting about it, kinda like you...I proved him, and now you, wrong so what's the point in considering anything else you have to say...??
Give me a break airhead.."
Dennis,
Look dude, if you're gonna try to out me by mentioning my full name at least try to spell it correctly...it's KALLENBACH.
And you have got to be kidding me...you are the world's greatest hypocrite. You come on here daily bashing the Messiah and everything He stood for, and when someone like me comes along and defends Him, you get you panties in a wad...I'm certain you'd be applauding me if I'd taken your blasphemous position.
Also, I love it when you bust out your "Minister Dennis" side, when trying to educate me about public behavior....kinda like you can take Dennis out of the WCG, but you can't take the WCG out of Dennis routine....man you are one mixed up box of hot mess. And who are you to deny me my first amendment rights, you hypocrite...?? You and others have viciously attacked me here on this blog but I get it that that's part of the process. I stopped posting here just because of your nauseating atheism posts, where you mercilessly attack the Messiah, with your insulting "gospel Jesus" or "Revelation Jesus" comments...so in your world that's ok, but if I try to stand up for and defend the Saviour, then I have a problem....then I crossed your imaginary line of civility...well go screw yourself. Your attitude is completely reminiscent of the attitudes I had to deal with in the WCG etc and frankly I'm sick of it.
So in conclusion dude, I don't need your sanctimonious attitude concerning my posts and your attempts to curtail my freedom of speech...and I'm sick of your snide little innuendos attacking the Messiah. If my defense of Him offends you, well then so be it....the Lake of Fire is very broad and deep...I suggest you take a few steps back away from its edge...
TK
DennisCDiehl said...
Now you've gone and lit the match in a dry forest Gary! Record number of comments about to hit!
March 20, 2018 at 6:15 AM
Anonymous said...
"Record number of comments about to hit!" Highly unlikely.
March 20, 2018 at 6:56 AM
Told ya . Talking about the New Covenant in the context of the COG experience, splits, splinters and slivers is a hottie. Paul and Gentile Christianity won the day in the end with Paul defining the NC. Try as the COGs might, Paul was not pro-Sabbath/Holyday/food laws.Jewish Christianity sank in to the mists of history. It is Paul's theology and views that we have today in Mainstream Christianity which is why the Jewish Christian thinking COGs can't get it straight. You can't have both.
I personally believe that Paul's "Pharisee of the Pharisees" credentials are grievously exaggerated. He was a very complicated and conflicted man from all scriptural descriptions . Pharisees don't brag about Roman citizenship nor do they hunt down Christians . Temple thugs working for the Sadducees might do that , but not Pharisees.
A good read of Paul the Mythmaker by Hyam Jaccoby is always in order for the serious student of Paul and the early Jewish/Gentile church.
Blogger DennisCDiehl said...
The misconceptions and debates over what constitutes the New Covenant and who has to do or not do what to be a part of it gets lost in the belief that Peter, James, John and Paul all taught the same thing about it and all agreed with each other on the issues of law and grace. They did not as I have noted many times before and will spare us.
Isn't it rich when an atheist comes onto a religious blog and tries to explain theology to others...??? I can't even think of a term to describe how demented that is... I mean I teach aviation to professional students as my career...I don't try to convince them that planes run on compressed air or that the earth is flat.
Dennis, an atheist, couldn't explain the covenants like my dog can't explain gravity.
The "Old Covenant" was quid pro quo...you do this, I'll give you the promised land.
The "New Covenant" is quid pro quo....you do this and I'll give you the universe.
Any questions...???
TK
I think the record number of comments is well over a hundred. We are not there yet.
Todd, I see you were able to post the email you sent me so you are good to go here and not blocked as you had thought.
Again, asking for more discussion and less bluster and name calling is not out of line here on the blog. I am not the enemy. Any views I have on the Bible are not my own but the measured views of theologians, archaeologists and the higher criticism types along with Biblical history experts both Jewish and otherwise. I don't make it up based on some deviant stuckness in my past ministry with WCG. I will always enjoy and be fascinated by the study of the Bible and have been this way since a kid. It is what took me to WCG and AC thinking they had it figured out better than my Presbyterian affiliation. They did not. The Presbyterians had it all along it seems to me at least on NT studies and perspectives.
We know much much more in this day an age about Biblical origins and difficulties than we did 40 years ago and that information is easily available for study .
I also know how difficult it is to unbelieve something we have sincerely believed but then are faced with new information and perspectives that challenge us in those beliefs. Individuals can change their views much easier than organization as we have seen for decades.
I am quite qualified for many reasons to comment on Biblical topics even if they don't bring me to the same conclusions you have. That's the nature of the Bible which is not exactly written simply and without contradictions that are apparent to those who will admit to them.
Any way, You still need to work on your tone towards others if you expect to be at least heard or taken seriously. Name calling and labeling others who disagree with you and imagining them to be some way they are actually not with motives they actually don't have does not help much.
Isn't it rich when an atheist comes onto a religious blog and tries to explain theology to others...???
What's wrong with that? Isn't Bart Ehrman an atheist and a respected professor of history at a bible college? He studies how we got the bible, and writes books on that.
What an honor....!!!
Dis-fellowshipped by David "Prick" Pack and by Banned....
Do I get a gold medal...????
TK
Dilemma:
1. Paul, claiming contact with the spirit/ghost of Jesus, says Law is done away.
2. HWA, claiming contact with the spirit/ghost of Jesus, says Law not done away.
3. Gospel-Jesus says Law not done away.
So HWA ahead on points, as long ignores Paul, which he does.
But:
All three claimants, Paul, HWA, Gospel biographers, cannot verify their claims,
So the 2000-year-old melee will drag on...
True Bread
Dennis has a point. The 1989 movie 'Driving Miss Daisy' is a excellent example for Christians to follow. The driver (played by Morgan Freeman) was always kind and diplomatic to the crabby natured elderly woman that he chauffeured.
Easy to say but not easy to apply, I know. It's a gaol.
N_E_O attempts to pigeon hole Armstrongism as a mere element of 'heretical' Millerism, but, as Dennis points out, the Pauline/Jerusalem-pillars dichotomy goes clear back to the first century: Therefore, denigrating Armstrongism (vs orthodoxy) amounts to an Ad Populum fallacy.
Hey, whoever commented under my handle on March 21, 2018 at 6:56 PM, please don't do that.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
True Bread
Dennis has a point. The 1989 movie 'Driving Miss Daisy' is a excellent example for Christians to follow.
Who said I was a "christian"....????
TK
Cut the crap, Todd! You wasn’t banned, though many feel you should be for being an ass towards people.
too late Gary...I got the screen shot...it will make a good video....
TK
"or whatever the heck you're trying to make it into"
5:11 PM
It was a little joke inserted as to not disturb the discussion.
However, my jokes have serious undertones.
First of all the allignment of members with messianic jewish cults or name calling like, ariel ben stochastics or whatever only occured after wcg was blown to pieces. Until that time there was a definite allignment with "the modern romans". Not unlike the "conversos" of spain. Jews who alligned themselves with christianity under pressure of persecution.
Not unlike stan rader, who from persecuted jews in ukraine eventually ended up as an evangelist in a christian cult. Placing heavy emphasis in allignment with the laws and customs of the new homeland.
Wcg people wore suits like american businessmen, not unlike the alexandria portraits of romans.
In this discussion a lot of emphasis is put on the bible and biblical exegis.
From a pseudo psychological viewpoint the whole experience looks more like the american desire of forging a "new identity" or even "finding ones identity".
The "jewish" aspect of wcg was like the finding of "oh we were israelites after all".
Perhaps a bit like NEO who after 50 years discovers he has native american roots. Suddenly he acquires nice artifacts or perhaps a new habit that alligns with that discovery. Much to the surprise of his wife and children who find pleasure in dads new hobby, while having lived the american lifestyle for his entire life.
So yes. Perhaps the root of all this lies in discussions between Peter and James. Perhaps it is about americans "re"discovering a (israelite) identity and trying best they can to acquire some of it.
The most ridiculous expression of this phenomenon is the Flurry Irish heritage who obviously take pleasure in reliving that culture through dance. The ridiculousness lies in the fact that they now believe that by extension the irish were israel, they irish danced, so the isrealites irish danced.
That type of behavior in short is my thesis in reverse.
I don't think you will find the answer on wcg culture in discussions between Paul, Peter, or James. Better to watch tv programs like "who do you think you are usa" and see the transformation after people seem to have discovered things about their "ancestors" in the umptieth line of succession.
nck
I don’t care if you got a screen shot or not. I was responding with my iPad that said “were” when I meant to type “weren’t” banned. You were not banned, but I certainly will now if this silliness continues.
True Bread
Driving Miss Daisy wasn't made by Christians or for Christians. Good manners and civil behavior is universal. No one likes a barbarian.
Jeez, I was beginning to wonder if there were such a thing as “air rage”. My “well duh” moment was when I realized that yes, it probably comes up from time to time in combat situations.
BB
Driving Miss Daisy wasn't made by Christians or for Christians. Good manners and civil behavior is universal. No one likes a barbarian.
So why do I hear and see the F-word everywhere I go? Even on book titles, and places that used to be civilized. They are ALL barbarians, which is why the world might be better off with an aristocracy. Before we had classy people setting the trend. Now we have liars and vulgar hollywood celebrities; the new gutter aristocracy.
All three claimants, Paul, HWA, Gospel biographers, cannot verify their claims,
So the 2000-year-old melee will drag on...
A lot of things come down to faith. What one choses to believe in a world of conflicting narratives, many of them intentionally faked by someone at some time or other. They come down to OPINION, not necessarily fact. That's why arguments will never end. Add Buddhists and Sunnis and Shiites and Sikhs and you are done. That is why diversity will never work. Diversity is disorder by design...divide and conquer. The intentional construction of chaos. The intentional destruction of any unified resistance to "Big Brother" (for lack of a better name).
It seems to me that to accept Paul's version of Christianity you need to reject the more or less uniform witness of 12 men who actually lived with the real Jesus for 3.5 years and accept the unverifiable claim of a lone wolf who SAYS he saw Jesus in vision. Why would anyone do that?
If it were a trial, Paul would be laughed out of court and the 12 actual WITNESSES would prevail.
9.00AM
"You simply don't want to be told what to do." This is church code for ministers behaving like drill sergeants. God by contrast, complains of people not following His laws ie, people aren't puppets.
Aren't ministers the ones who 'don't want to be told what to do' by lording it over members????
4.08 AM
So why has the good example of 'Driving Miss Daisy' been ignored by so many? The reason is called free moral agency. It's acknowledged in the parable of the sower. Only one of the categories (implying a minority) bore fruit.
The same holds true for the good example of school teachers. Not all students are won over.
But the minority makes it worth while. God highly esteems the few who choose His way.
Because the aristocracy quickly becomes the most decadent class of all, if they weren't already.
My anonymous post on March 20 at 6:56 AM about Dennis' comment on a "Record number of comments about to hit!" and I said "is highly unlikely"...well...95 and counting. I'm not a unclean-bird eating kind of guy, but I am eating crow. Interesting discussion nonetheless.
4:32, there has never been anything BUT diversity. E pluribus unim. Even if all of the non-white people suddenly disappeared, you still have a tremendous amount of diversity amongst whites. Various cultures, languages, customs, and heritages, diverse religious influences, liberal and conservative, just to name a few categories that most readers will instantly recognize. The fact is, that is in accordance with the laws of the universe, because no matter what orderly system you start with, it always progresses to entropy with time. Big Brother alternately exploits or attempts to control the chaos, but really has very little to do with its presence.
The idea that you can get rid of diversity is a false premise, the pipe dream or campaign slogan of demagogues. You could only make serious progress towards this through ethnic cleansing, which highly principled humans have all found to be barbaric.
BB
Scanning through, I made some observations:
1. The New Covenant proper is not neatly bounded and is not all of the books that we refer to as the New Testament. The New Covenant is mostly contained in the Sermon on the Mount with some elaboration by Paul and others in later epistles. A lot of the New Testament epistles deal with Christian practice. Practice may legitimately vary.
2. Multiple writers will introduce concepts differently. The question is do they differ significantly? James may not be canonical. I give James little weight.
3. For those NT writers who write on the New Covenant, what they contribute can be synthesized into the integrated picture.
4. Someone anonymous wrote:
"N_E_O attempts to pigeon hole Armstrongism as a mere element of 'heretical' Millerism, but, as Dennis points out, the Pauline/Jerusalem-pillars dichotomy goes clear back to the first century: Therefore, denigrating Armstrongism (vs orthodoxy) amounts to an Ad Populum fallacy."
First, this word "dichotomy" is far too strong for what is an instantiation of the same message within two different cultural contexts.
And regarding Armstrongism, a culturally Jewish version of the covenant and a culturally Gentile version of the covenant does not introduce enough slack that somehow the widely divergent heresy of Armstrongism can smoothly become a part of the mix. Armstrongism is a heretical and distant outlier.
Another way of putting it: There is the New Covenant, the Old Covenant and Armstrongism which is an odd melange of the first two cooked up by a guy name Herman Hoeh. Armstrongists have never understood that you can take a holy Old Covenant and a holy New Covenant and conflate them, as Hoeh did without any Biblical direction, and come up with something that is unholy. I can cite chapter and verse.
724..The Crow is my totem😇
TK I believe you have already won the 2018 Insane and Inane Comments Award. If you love Messiah Jesus you are obligated to forgive Dennis of his perceived offenses
Ius gentium was treated as an aspect of ius naturalis by the contemporary lawyers of the apostles.
One needs to study the stoics and gaius on interpretation.
The entire dimension of ius civilis is missing in this discussion on "covenants."
We won't have a book disseminated that is not in compliance with Roman Law, do we now??
"Some people should know when they are conquered Maximus!"
Nck (pilatus) doctor utriusque iuris
Nemo plus transferer potest quam ipse haberet.
For those who do not understand my wit.
The Romansl legal system was extremely sophisticated in adressing by which covenants or laws a roman was bound or strangers or citizizens of another kingdom so to say.
Some were practical like ius civilis other moral rules by which all humans are bound.
The romans knew pretty well that no man is born a slave. Yet there was legal title to hold scores
I do not believe for the NT to contradict Roman Law. Many questions in the NT like "in the spirit of adoption by which we call him abba father" being adopted into the God family cannot be grasped without knowledge of the roman legal system.
To understand who or what is bound by any covenant must comply with the roman standard of moral law and practical application.
Paul was very clear in his application of ronan law and greek philosophy as he brought the god we do not yet know.
Ahah another reason to not hand this person to the local magistrate and have his fallacies end woth his life. This peeson is speaking legalese and therefore worthy to listen too.
Nck
"Because the aristocracy quickly becomes the most decadent class of all, if they weren't already."
Well, if you refer some of the Roman emperors, certain Talmudic Rabbis, the Weinsteins and Clintons, drug-taking rock stars, Miley Cirus, rappers, and such, you do have a point. But in general, the aristocracy was a few cuts above the common (vulgar) people, which is where the term vulgar came from.
Diversity leads to Balkanization which is what led to ethnic cleansing in the Bulkans. There would be no ethnic cleaning if not for the efforts to cram widely diverse peoples down each others throats.
When multiculturalism was brought in, polls showed that 80% to 90% of the people were opposed to it. But Big Brother crammed it down our throats nonetheless, and now the cracks in society are starting to show and widen.
If there were no Jews in Germany there never would have been a so-called "Holocaust".
If slaves were never brought to America there would not be a million (?) people in US jails.
Studies show that multiculturalism leads to violence, crime, alienation and people dropping out of community involvement.
The second law of thermodynamics is a law of physics, not one of human societies. Societies can evolve and become more ordered. Evolution, both biological and cultural, have bucked the trend to disorder. It is not true that everything tends to disorder; that's only true under certain circumstances. You understand neither science nor society.
11:04, you should look up the definition of "decadent" before commenting on it
Anonymous said...
TK I believe you have already won the 2018 Insane and Inane Comments Award. If you love Messiah Jesus you are obligated to forgive Dennis of his perceived offenses
March 22, 2018 at 9:51 AM
9:51...
thanks for your input, but I don't take spiritual advice from anonymous weirdos on a cult-oreinted blog....anyways,I appreciate you for playing along...plus Dennis and I get along fine...I enjoy his give and take.
TK
True Bread said:
".plus Dennis and I get along fine...I enjoy his give and take."
We do? You do?
But but... You say ....
"Isn't it rich when an atheist comes onto a religious blog and tries to explain theology to others...??? I can't even think of a term to describe demented that is.
Dennis, an atheist, couldn't explain the covenants like my dog can't explain gravity."
"And you have got to be kidding me...you are the WORLD"S GREATEST hypocrite. You come on here daily bashing the Messiah and everything He stood for, and when someone like me comes along and defends Him, you get you panties in a wad...I'm certain you'd be applauding me if I'd taken your blasphemous position. "
".kinda like you can take Dennis out of the WCG, but you can't take the WCG out of Dennis routine....man you are one mixed up box of hot mess. And who are you to deny me my first amendment rights, you hypocrite...?? You and others have viciously attacked me here on this blog but I get it that that's part of the process. I stopped posting here just because of your nauseating atheism posts, where you mercilessly attack the Messiah, with your insulting "gospel Jesus" or "Revelation Jesus" comments...so in your world that's ok, but if I try to stand up for and defend the Saviour, then I have a problem....then I crossed your imaginary line of civility...well go screw yourself."
So in conclusion dude, I don't need your sanctimonious attitude concerning my posts and your attempts to curtail my freedom of speech...and I'm sick of your snide little innuendos attacking the Messiah. If my defense of Him offends you, well then so be it....the Lake of Fire is very broad and deep...I suggest you take a few steps back away from its edge..."
Did I miss something? You "enjoy" the give and take? I don't. You've been calling me names for months. lol
"The Eye that sees can't see itself"
Buddah
Ah, a little defensive, are we, 11:17? Is that why you felt it necessary to
level the accusation about not understanding?
The laws of science cover the entirety of the universe. Humans and their daily lives are not an exception by any means to these laws, nor is society at large. It is still “Orderliness to randomness”, unless conditions to restrict the drive towards randomness are put into place, and enforced at the pain of death.
The USA in the past had been a very bad boy! To maintain the whiteness, there was a shameless extermination and internment program executed against the original sovereign inhabitants of the continent. If you don’t actually break down and cry like a baby when you read about the suffering that went on along the Trail of Tears, you have no humanity left in your soul whatever. Also, the slave population which was brought in from Africa was suppressed for hundreds of years, and never started to be seriously valued by and assimilated by American society until the late 1960s. Loyal Japanese Americans who would gladly have served in our American military services (as DID Native Americans and African -Americans during World War II!) were instead rounded up like cattle, stripped of the fruits of their labors, and placed in internment camps for the balance of World War II. And of course there are the Chinese laborers who largely built our railroad system, including dangerous work on mountain passes done for a pittance, only to be sent back to China upon completion of their work. Compounding all of this, the Emergency Immigration Act of 1921, through a draconian quota system, restricted immigration to the US largely to the Northern European countries which bore cultural similarities to the United States. Professionals and those from Latin countries were largely unrestricted.
Beginning in the 1960s, with the ease and convenience of international travel, moneyed people locked out by the 1921 act began to seek respite from those restrictions, and in 1965, a new wave of immigration laws came into play. The quotas were revised to create an equal playing field, providing additional opportunities for those who did not share the dominant “American” or Northern European cultures. This is precisely the drop-off point where our “Christian patriot” militia buddies would pinpoint the USA as having “lost it”. Because shortly thereafter, the demographics of the USA changed forever! Honestly, the Brits had already undergone a similar transition as citizens of “the Empire” began exercising their right to move to England for better opportunities. There was, as an example, profound East Indian influence on ‘60s British rock n roll starting with the Beatles.
While it is true that medieval, and feudalistic societies evolved into our modern ones which are based on the rule of law, once it became easy and inexpensive to travel, it was inevitable that those nations would begin to become more cosmopolitan and world class. Diversity grew and flourished. It was no longer possible to identify and maintain a “master race”. Also, the natural drive towards randomness was no longer possible to restrict or enforce.
I’m secure in my understanding of the sciences and societies which immediately affect my existence, and my natural inquisitiveness will allow me to evaluate and troubleshoot or correct based on any new information coming in. But, the bigger the spectrum, the fuller the palette, the better we get to create something of beauty rather than something stark and ugly. Diversity is good. If nothing else, it cleanses the gene pool.
BB
When John said:
"We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life."
In light of the claims made by some here that Paul and the Jerusalem Church were at odds, I wonder if this scripture was a slap at Paul who never actually met Jesus. If so, Paul was proclaiming a different gospel and preaching a different Jesus!
I John 1:1.
Blogger DennisCDiehl said...
True Bread said:
".plus Dennis and I get along fine...I enjoy his give and take."
We do? You do?
But but... You say ....
"Isn't it rich when an atheist comes onto a religious blog and tries to explain theology to others...??? I can't even think of a term to describe demented that is.
Dennis, an atheist, couldn't explain the covenants like my dog can't explain gravity."
"And you have got to be kidding me...you are the WORLD"S GREATEST hypocrite. You come on here daily bashing the Messiah and everything He stood for, and when someone like me comes along and defends Him, you get you panties in a wad...I'm certain you'd be applauding me if I'd taken your blasphemous position. "
".kinda like you can take Dennis out of the WCG, but you can't take the WCG out of Dennis routine....man you are one mixed up box of hot mess. And who are you to deny me my first amendment rights, you hypocrite...?? You and others have viciously attacked me here on this blog but I get it that that's part of the process. I stopped posting here just because of your nauseating atheism posts, where you mercilessly attack the Messiah, with your insulting "gospel Jesus" or "Revelation Jesus" comments...so in your world that's ok, but if I try to stand up for and defend the Saviour, then I have a problem....then I crossed your imaginary line of civility...well go screw yourself."
So in conclusion dude, I don't need your sanctimonious attitude concerning my posts and your attempts to curtail my freedom of speech...and I'm sick of your snide little innuendos attacking the Messiah. If my defense of Him offends you, well then so be it....the Lake of Fire is very broad and deep...I suggest you take a few steps back away from its edge..."
Did I miss something? You "enjoy" the give and take? I don't. You've been calling me names for months. lol
"The Eye that sees can't see itself"
Buddah
March 22, 2018 at 7:18 PM
Thamks Dennis....that's exactly how I feel about you. I won't post your emails. You can't imagine the irony I feel when I am communicating with an ex-WCG minister, after all of the pain your like caused me and my family...to this very day.
Quoting Buddah just makes my case....sorry for taking up space in your mind rent-free...I'm moving on.
TK
"Diversity is good. If nothing else, it cleanses the gene pool."
Well that about sums it up. You have to admit that diversity kills. By that standard, evil is good.
I don’t know who you are, or what your socio-economic or academic status might be, 11:11. All I can tell you for sure is that in my world, whenever such remarks as you just made are made, it’s some of the most ignorant low-lifes on the face of the earth who have made them. Seriously, you wouldn’t want to even walk across the street with them.
BB
BB
True Bread is frustrated. As he sees it, his God is angry too, so his passion is justified. My God, on the other hand, does not get all worked up about sinners. He remains calm. He can handle that evil exists. He does not let these things get to him.
The comment about "give and take" reminds me of the BBC fake journalist who rudely interrogated and interrupted her guest, tried to put words in his mouth, etc, for the whole interview, then, at the end, changed her hostile tone and sweetly said, "thanks for talking with us today, nice to have a civilized discussion." What a joke. The guest was civilized, she wasn't. It was a ploy to obscure that fact that she was a rude b---- the whole way through. Fake news. Fake civility. Fake, fake, fake.
"But, the bigger the spectrum, the fuller the palette, the better we get to create something of beauty rather than something stark and ugly."
To preserver bio-diversity etc all peoples must remain separate. Moving people around actually kills diversity because it can lead to a stark and ugly reality of drastically dumbing down the human race, and lowering the culture to a vulgar global mono-culture of the lowest common denominator. The no moron left behind thing.
BB
You are mistaken. Loyal Japanese did fight in Americas armed fires in WW2. There's a excellent documentary of it. Most perished in battle.
Todd. I'm sorry I am a symbol of your pain. However, you don't know me and if I had been your pastor you would not remotely liken me to those who you feel hurt you so badly. Not even close...You are projecting through a process called transference . As I have told you three times this week. I am not your enemy. Nor you mine. I understand the process and anger you have. I make every effort not to take it personally. I have done nothing to you save listen and take the abuse you heap because my journey is not yours nor yours mine.
Anonymous said...
True Bread is frustrated. As he sees it, his God is angry too, so his passion is justified. My God, on the other hand, does not get all worked up about sinners. He remains calm. He can handle that evil exists. He does not let these things get to him.
March 22, 2018 at 7:59 PM
Anon 7:59
Why are you implying that Dennis is a sinner...?? I never implied that....btw, maybe you should change hands...it may feel like someone else...
TK
Blogger DennisCDiehl said...
Todd. I'm sorry I am a symbol of your pain. However, you don't know me and if I had been your pastor you would not remotely liken me to those who you feel hurt you so badly. Not even close...You are projecting through a process called transference . As I have told you three times this week. I am not your enemy. Nor you mine. I understand the process and anger you have. I make every effort not to take it personally. I have done nothing to you save listen and take the abuse you heap because my journey is not yours nor yours mine.
March 22, 2018 at 8:27 PM
Dennis, thanks for the kind words...trust me, I have no "pain" from HWA or you or anyone else... I had pain for a long time after 9-11...I didn't realize that I had PTSD, but I did....once i figured out it was all lies an an inside job I began to heal...I was working that day as an airline pilot...so I really don't need your sanctimonious implication that you ever caused me any pain. I just referred to you as representing the totality of my experience with any WCG "minister" and that is probably unfair to you.
Basically, the greatest thing in my life occurred when I rejected everything HWA, and started to study existence in a different light, which led me to start True Bread. Frankly, I don't give a damn about how you feel about that, or me. Just because you have thrown the baby out with the bathwater has nothing to do with what I believe...good luck with your meteorites and Buddha...
TK
Ah, a little defensive, are we, 11:17? Is that why you felt it necessary to
level the accusation about not understanding?
Defensive, are you nuts? You are beyond the pale. I guess you have no idea how stupid you sound to anyone who knows anything about thermodynamics. You are clued out and full of yourself. Sheesh. Of course, this could be just more of your pretense.
decadent:
characterized by or reflecting a state of moral or cultural decline.
synonyms: dissolute, dissipated, degenerate, corrupt, depraved, sinful, unprincipled, immoral ...
The definition fits.
In your opinion only 9:01. I have a feeling you’re just going to continue in life picking up and quoting whatever you need to support your sickness. That’s the way a pathological condition often plays out its life cycle.
“Defensiveness” struck a chord with you. It bothered you enough that you took the time to cut, paste, and respond.
So I was right. Had I not been, you would have let it pass without comment. Now you’re probably thinking of covering your tracks and deleting that comment. It’s OK. I’d estimate from your comments that you probably have an IQ in the range of maybe 115 or a bit less.
BB
By the way, I arbitrarily decide not to waste my time on some people. There was a guy last week who insisted that to date dig sites, scientists look for nearby carbon so they can know how old the items in the area are. I did mentioned isotopes three times, and he kept telling me that I was the one who did not understand radio carbon dating. It was immediately plain to me that he did not know that Carbon 14 is a radioactive isotope of carbon that all living things on planet earth take into their cells on a daily basis. The day the life form dies, it ceases taking in this isotope, which then begins its halflife, during which it is losing its radioactivity at a known rate, as does uranium in its ultimate degeneration into lead. Scientists measure the level of the radioactivity, lets say of the C-14 in a dinosaur bone, and can know fairly accurately the time of its death within the past 26,000 years in most cases, and up to 50,000 years in special cases.
As for your grasp of the second law of thermodynamics, it does apply to the order to randomness process amongst ALL energy forms and exchanges in our world in which matter, energy, space and time are the fundamental component parts . So, the races transitioning from orderly and separate to random combinations is totally within the descriptive scope of that law, which actually does quite a nice job of explaining what we have witnessed with humanity around us just in our lifetimes. Our physics teacher actually illustrated this law using a hypothetical situation in which a box of ping pong balls setting in the back of an old Chevy station wagon during a road trip opened up, allowing the balls to move about, and to be in random positions all over the luggage area of the car at the end of the trip. Unless something is restrained in a forced state of equilibrium, an order to entropy process is in play. Many of these processes are so slow, that it just requires years to perceive them.
BB
The Pauline soteriological model is counterintuitive: Thus EGW/HWA would have none of it - nor could the vestigial pre-Paul messianic-Christ-cult of Peter, James.. By around year 80, Gospel Matthew, building on the (fictional) framework of Gospel Mark, endeavors to revive the early Jewish movement. Then, to add more friction, along comes Marcion, using his personal wealth to propagandize the radical Pauline thesis, heavily editing the lukan gospel and dumping the other gospels.
What a lot of people don't know is that the native Americans were killing each other off faster than the Europeans killed them off when Europeans got to America. The Europeans didn't do anything to the natives that the natives weren't already doing to themselves.
The same goes for blacks and slavery. Because of the high rate of slavery in that existed in Africa, there are more blacks in America today that are descended from slave owners than whites.
But only white people get the blame. All the propaganda on these matters is really an attack on white people to make them feel guilty and extract concessions out them, and whip up anti-white sentiment. The puppets of the manipulators are used to spread the anti-white hate. The whole mainstream view of history is based on picking out certain facts selectively.
"Why are you implying that Dennis is a sinner...?? I never implied that...."
Ho ho ho ho ho..... That's a good one. Liar.
"btw, maybe you should change hands...it may feel like someone else..."
I can see that you are just trying to pick a fight, and intimidate people. Keep it up and you're just going to get more of the same from others. I see now that you really are a lying jerk.
4:46
200.000 sestertii? That is like Onassis supporting WCG.
What is it with these businessmen (marcion, waldo, hobby lobby ......) and the promotion of their pet theories? For historical purpose, Marcion of Sinope sure sounds better than Dave of Wadsworth - for Whateveritsworth
nck
Then, to add more friction to the fiction, along comes Marcion...
446
Thank you. A refreshing view of NT realities
5:41 AM-
Is that you, Richard Spencer?
5:41 AM, are you a KKK sympathizer?
My husband is an Armstrong-ite. He doesn’t acknowledge these scriptures. It’s impossible to read Romans, Galatians and Hebrews and hold on to legalism so they just ignore it. I’ve often attended church with him and I’m not sure that I’ve ever been asked to turn to a scripture in one of these books.
The typical Armstrong COG member also still believes In British Israelism and thinks it’s a key to prophecy.
They are absolutely convicted that they can earn a higher place for themselves by law keeping.
They think that we who don’t agree with legalism are “blinded” but it is fact they that are blind!
Anonymous said...
"Why are you implying that Dennis is a sinner...?? I never implied that...."
Ho ho ho ho ho.....
Lighten up santa no need to get your panties in a knot...I didn't start anything here. Plus when did I ever say Dennis was a sinner..?? That's a pretty obnoxious and stupid thing to say, considering that we are all sinners...well maybe except for you.
TK
5:41 AM, are you a KKK sympathizer?
How is that relevant to the facts? Or is that just a guilt-by-association tactic to draw attention from the facts? That would be an ad hominem.
True Bread = total hypocrite.
Hey BB, I know people who have written programs in thermodynamics for university research departments and they say you are clued out on your understanding of and misapplication of thermodynamics. Further, even the traditional view of it is now being called into question. You are not a scientist, just a know-nothing-know-it-all pundit, miles behind the curve. Grow up.
When did you say Dennis was a sinner? Well, if you look at what you wrote about him he could almost pass for Satan. But I guess, maybe Satan is not a sinner in your version of the bible. So, of course, you really did say it, but pretend you didn't.
Then the real Messiah comes the first one to in the lake of fire won't be Dennis but the false Messiah called "True Bread" who, like "That Prophet" Gerald Flurry, has appropriated one of the titles of God.
The thing is, 10:10, this slug’s crap is potentially a big deal, and has to be exposed and dealt with. There is a movement afoot right now to reassert and reimpose a white cultural heritage on Northern Europe and the US. Leaders like that dick, Spencer, are calling for “humane” ethnic cleansing. This is the first time and set of trends in my lifetime that it appears could actually turn Europe towards an ideology capable of triggering the Armstrong apocalypse, and of course all the Armstrong false prophets are missing it, except for Mark Armstrong who is cheering it on as if it were his own idea.
Supposedly, Spencer is banned in Europe, but about a month ago, Steve Bannon had a trip planned to Europe to meet with leaders and push the agenda.
I really don’t believe there is enough of a groundswell of support for these people to affect more than just enough to get some occasional news coverage. Historically, radical white people have generated too much of a negative image to interest the mainstream population and media. These are not MENSA members or Rhodes Scholars. But, just as we’ve called upon peaceful US Muslims to speak out against terrorism and radical Islam, we’re going to need to speak out against and confront the ignorant radicals of our own skin pigmentation.
BB
Anonymous said...
Then the real Messiah comes the first one to in the lake of fire won't be Dennis but the false Messiah called "True Bread" who, like "That Prophet" Gerald Flurry, has appropriated one of the titles of God.
March 23, 2018 at 3:47 PM
Pretty sure you're insane in the membrane there anon....and you certainly are a low-information poster, hiding behind your mask. I know nothing of Flurry except what I read here...I know he has a shiny new Gulfstream jet...I don't take money from people like he does, so I don't have a Gulfstream, but I can fly one...
And seriously, learn how to proof-read your posts...that way you will at least come across as not completely stupid.
TK
Of course you do, 3:30! They probably graduated with Bob Thiel!
Seriously, who do you know that we can Google in the field of simulis thermodynamics?
BB
3:23 ~ You’re kidding, right??? It’s relevant to the facts in that it gives us a clue as to where you get your facts, and how reliable they are.
Any chance you’re going to be at the Big Sandy MG Shooters event this weekend?
BB
Anonymous March 21, 2018 at 4:52 PM said...
"God does not change, so if Christ fulfilled the law, then Christ in us is fulfilling the law today. So if we don't keep the law, there is no evidence that Christ is in us. But Satan might be."
Why Satan? Are you thinking that Satan is a reprobate?
2 Corinthians 13:5 states:
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
Romans 1:20-28 speak about some that have a reprobate mind. Just considering a few verses:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Verse 20 does not apply to human beings, and Satan and his angels were made. They existed and saw the creation of the world. They comprehend God's eternal power and Godhead. Perhaps human beings are with excuse, but Satan and his angels aren't!
:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Satan and his angels knew God. Jesus Christ said humans didn't know God, His Father (John 17:25 "O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee..."). Is there really only one God who is The God? Two Gods? Three Gods? We live in a world of confusion!
:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
I believe we're not supposed to call human beings "fools," but Satan and his angels? Fools!
:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Is it possible that Satan and his angels do not like to retain God in their knowledge? It appears so, and God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
To be continued…
John
Continuing…
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Satan might be in those who do not keep God's law, but another spirit of some sort may be dwelling in there. James knew about another spirit:
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5
And yes, Satan, can't be ruled out, as Paul told us:
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" Eph 2:2
What spirit is that? Satan? One of his angels (Matthew 25:41)?
There is no need to be "too down" on human beings who don't keep God's law. The Apostle Paul had some problems with law-keeping, too:
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Now, there is a law Paul kept, but he didn't like it (Gal 5:17). It appears you and I also keep that law!?! Do we not?
So far, it appears that only Jesus Christ perfectly fulfilled God's law, and the rest of us, try as hard as we may, just can't make that "free moral agency" choice (assuming you think you have that) to desire to not sin again, and choose to make such a decision be successful. We know there is still sin in our lives, too!
Fortunately, for you and me, and the rest of humanity, perfectly keeping God's law, “trying very hard,” doing all sorts of "good works/deeds", etc. are not qualifiers to being one day in God's Kingdom.
Or, as Paul said it:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them..." 2 Cor 5:19
If God does not accomplish that, then who will be reconciled?
Your comment about evidence has some merit, but let's face it. Who among us today is perfectly keeping God's law? Well, I mean others in addition to the likes of Bob Thiel, G Weston, D Winnail, G Flurry, J Franks, J Malm, etc. Well, I jest there!
And time will tell…
John
A thought for the day:
"The modern evolutionary synthesis ascribes the observed diversity of life to random genetic mutations followed by natural selection. The latter retains some random mutations in the gene pool due to the systematically improved chance for survival and reproduction that those mutated genes confer on individuals who possess them."
****************************************************************
"Gee, Mr. Science, that's just awesome!"
"Always remember, Bobby, if you persist, and research deeply enough, in most cases you will eventually find the evidence you need to disarm those who preach ignorance!"
BB
False Bread says he enjoys the "give and take". I take that to mean he really enjoys being an ass ... gets a perverse sense of pleasure being a thorn in the side.
Anonymous said...
Anonymous March 21, 2018 at 4:52 PM said...
"God does not change, so if Christ fulfilled the law, then Christ in us is fulfilling the law today. So if we don't keep the law, there is no evidence that Christ is in us. But Satan might be."
Why Satan? Are you thinking that Satan is a reprobate?
2 Corinthians 13:5 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] states:
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
Romans 1:20-28 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] speak about some that have a reprobate mind. Just considering a few verses:
Romans 1:20 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Verse 20 does not apply to human beings, and Satan and his angels were made. They existed and saw the creation of the world. They comprehend God's eternal power and Godhead. Perhaps human beings are with excuse, but Satan and his angels aren't!
:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Satan and his angels knew God. Jesus Christ said humans didn't know God, His Father (John 17:25 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] "O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee..."). Is there really only one God who is The God? Two Gods? Three Gods? We live in a world of confusion!
:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
I believe we're not supposed to call human beings "fools," but Satan and his angels? Fools!
:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Is it possible that Satan and his angels do not like to retain God in their knowledge? It appears so, and God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
To be continued…
John
March 23, 2018 at 6:36 PM
John....wow you sure do post lengthy comments...!!! Why do you come here to preach to all of us through your long-winded sermons...??? This really isn't the place for that...this place is for those of us who have been damaged by HWA and all of his dogma...you seem to want to try to teach all of us lowlifes how to really believe. My recommendation to you is to start your own blog and preach to your heart's content, or start your own website and youtube channel. Or you could go on public access tv, or local radio for free or cheap...just stop coming here to lecture us on your opinions of scripture...seriously dude, go back and read your own posts....sounds like sermonettes I heard in WCG.
Looks like ad hominem is a new phrase to you, KKK dude. And BB didn't lose this argument, you did. He buried you in front of God and everyone but you're just too stupid to realize it. Don't you have a racial hatred blog you have to go to? You're probably an intellectual according to their standards. I think your Mutter is calling you.
True Bread,
John is lengthy indeed but not particularly antagonistic and has not drawn much flack despite the sharing of his winding contributions.
What's happening man. You are also for several reasons an interesting contributor, like John.
Are you under stress of some kind.
Under different circumstance I would recommend a massage!
I have a friend in Portland just opposite the HWA library who could help out. But it seems he has been rubbing you the wrong way.
Take a breath (I know you don't like yoga after the Buddha comment.) Perhaps an extra sip of passover wine.
BTW: I was somewhat in awe of your automatic rifle. Only saw the combination with automatic weapons, bible menorah and Temple in Jerusalem before. You oughta visit it one time. It will broaden your perspective even more even if you have that birds eye view on a regular basis.
In acre I saw 18 year old girls carrying your weapon enjoying an ice cream.
Acre amazing hospital of the knight commanders of the Hospitallers. They knew about healing too.
nck
BB
There are several scientific assumptions in carbon dating, such as the suns activity being constant. Which is why carbon dating can only be regarded accurate to historically verifiable dates. These go back about 5000 years. Your bigger dates is scientifically dubious.
True Bread wrote: "...this place is for those of us who have been damaged by HWA and all of his dogma...you seem to want to try to teach all of us lowlifes how to really believe..."
Unlike you, I don't consider people associated with this blog site to be damaged or lowlifes, but teach? Aren't the remaining 3 fingers on your hand revealing that you are guilty of what you accuse me of? Your website is so flawed: who wants to go there for anything?
You also wrote: "...go back and read your own posts....sounds like sermonettes I heard in WCG..."
I am about to call you, True Bread, a liar, but I will bite my tongue on that one. Maybe you just can't help yourself. Within the comments I made above I used Romans 1 and applied some verses to Satan and his angels. Who has ever done that?
I spent over a quarter of a century in WCG, and several years with the United Ass., and whenever Romans 1 was cited, such as the verses mentioned above, the speakers, without fail, always applied them verses to human beings, especially to scientists, people knowledgeable in the fields of nature, inventions, technology, studying the Universe. So, I don't agree with you saying "...sounds like sermonettes I heard in WCG..." In my opinion, that is not "true bread!"
This entire thread was unusually long, and I avoided it for some time, and just recently skimmed comments and decided to say something. I again looked at the comments and noticed one comment that I thought was interesting and informative, which I had overlooked when skimming, and that was the one by Anon March 20, 2018 at 3:21 PM.
I'll strive to be short on that one. Love is a fulfilling of the law. God's law is a way of life. Anon explained how God's Spirit produces fruits, e.g. love, in one's life, so God gets all credit for those good changes. It was mentioned that OT Israel was "steeped in wickedness," but why was not explained. I'm not criticizing; the writer was making some good points and probably was striving to have a short comment.
I will just add that individuals may have God in Christ, and Christ in you, and God's Spirit producing good fruits, but because of other factors, Christians will have some sin and evil in their lives.....no matter how much love they have:
Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
If sin and evil were problems for the Apostle Paul, and Paul believed the Father was in Christ, and Christ was in him, and spiritual fruits were growing in Paul's life, then wouldn't the rest of us also have similar problems?
Oh, regarding what Richard Ames wrote, did he ever explain how human beings allow God to do anything? How human beings energetically seek to internalize God's Commandments? etc.
Self can't do it. Isn't that part of why the OT examples have been preserved: to show us that "something is missing" and human beings just can't magically do what RAmes is preaching about?
John
Scientists have known this for years, and correction algorithms have been developed to compensate for these changes.
Go to https://C14.arch.ox.ac.uk=calibration
Or, read the Wikipedia article on calibration of radiocarbon dates.
BB
What is not generally realized is the extent to which parallel sciences can be used to either correct or corroborate one another, all courtesy of the computer.
If you wish to attack conclusions which differ from what your ACOG (or young earth evangelical) minister tells you, these days you cannot simply raise questions assailing radio carbon dating to get the job done, because that science has now also been informed and refined by dendrochronology (tree rings, 12,500-13,900 year range), ice core records with a known range of 100,000 years and some possibly into millions of years, and fossil coral reefs which range into the millions of years.
The data from these various sciences can be put into timelines, and the timelines run against one another on the computer to refine and to yield a vastly more accurate picture of the science and history of planet Earth. To say that one or more branches of this dating science are only accurate back to 5,000 years may have passed unchecked during the late 1960s, but today a few quick mouseclicks will reveal such a statement as being terribly ignorant.
BB
nck
BTW: I was somewhat in awe of your automatic rifle. Only saw the combination with automatic weapons, bible menorah and Temple in Jerusalem before. You oughta visit it one time. It will broaden your perspective even more even if you have that birds eye view on a regular basis.
Thanks for chiming in...it is one of my life's goals to visit Jerusalem one day. I have studied the Temple for many years and find it a fascinating topic. Hope to get there before the antichrist Trump destroys the planet.
About my "automatic weapon"....it's not. It's an Armalite AR-15 .223 semi-automatic rifle that can be used for hunting, target practice and home defense. Mine is for target practice and home defense. I've had to pull my handgun on someone trying to get into my house late one night, so I take being armed fairly seriously. It is not fully automatic, but I have shot machine guns...not a big fan. I put that on video during a study to discuss the school shooting in Florida, showing that an AR can be used for mass murder, or to protect yourself. That's by far not the most powerful weapon I own. But I'm a pacifist, so they are for home protection, but mostly just used for target practice.
Nice to know you are watching some of my videos....
TK
Under different circumstance I would recommend a massage!
I have a friend in Portland just opposite the HWA library who could help out. But it seems he has been rubbing you the wrong way.
Thanks nck...
just have never liked men touching me that way....like in Middle School the coaches wanted me to wrestle on the team....didn't like the thought of it...
TK
TK
Yeah, I make it a habbit to know who I am talking to.
Analogy alert.
This particular blog may for the "nam" veteran feel at times like an antogonistic peace rally. A closer look may reveal that some of the activists are actually carrying distinctions on worn uniforms.
While I roamed the mazar-ac digs, I learned that Dennis excavated with Finkelstein (who are academic opponents on certain topics).
In the end I regard all of us as "band of brothers" forged through common experience. And of course we have our little sister bringing us tea or singing soothing songs after we finish bruised for the umptieth time.
Regarding Jerusalem.
I happened to be there at the exact moment many christians gathered for christmas (bethlehem pilgrimage), the jews gathered at the wailing wall for sabbath after festival of lights celebrations, the muazzin of the muslem faith called for silence and prayer and many more, A moment of complete frenzy and peace as I observed stepping back to witness the spectacle.
I noticed you seem to enjoy the martin-sielaff theory. If you have travelled abroad you are aware that it brings both disappointment, (buildings are smaller or broken, perceived friends roll your pockets and perceived enemies show hospitality,) all in all it brings greater insight in the human condition.
I do get the massage - touch thing.
I did have little asian ladies WALK up my spine, over in the south pacific. I would never have someone crack my neck.
Too many movies.
Good to hear you are a pacifist at heart.
Nck out
Observer of the pacifiers.
There are certain processes in nature and in society that tend to disorder, and certain ones that tend to order. Therefore, order can be achieved and has been achieved. Nothing spoken about entropy by a fool ranting straw-man arguments can change that.
Looks like ad hominem is a new phrase to you, KKK dude. And BB didn't lose this argument, you did. He buried you in front of God and everyone but you're just too stupid to realize it. Don't you have a racial hatred blog you have to go to? You're probably an intellectual according to their standards. I think your Mutter is calling you.
Not it is not a new phrase to me. I am not a member of the KKK, and never was. And I don't go to racial hatred blogs. And BB is pissing besides the pot, and so are you.
More ad hominems.
7:56
I don't know anything about order or disorder on the atomic level. But I read about that fibonacci thing and another article on how the west forgot the cyclical nature of things.
Oh yeah and how beautiful people have symmetric faces and the enormous amount of space within atoms and protons circling one another.
I have seen orderly societies collapse in disorder. Wanna see my pictures of the Alleppo Soukh? And I have seen Stunde Null evolve in the Wirtschaftswunder. I think I need to learn more on the topic.
At the NY UN headquarters is an interesting painting in the hall where a world is depicted like a rubik cube or those old pictures of the building of skyscrapers in nyc. Order from disorder, thats more my field of competence. A lot has been accomplished since "we" sponsored officials to build order through evolving principles through time and accepted practice.
Nck
Actually, it is our duty to ourselves and to civilization to inflict ad hominems on racists and supremacists, to openly question their personal sanity, and to make frequent note of the fact that racism has historically appealed to those of low mentality. (As we’ve seen demonstrated right here).
BB
I’m sure Dick Ames is happy that the comments on this thread no longer have anything to do with the post.
Maybe you guys should exchange emails for your personal cock fights.
I come to Banned to read about ACOGs and their insanity.
This other minutia is mind-numbing and it’s annoying and difficult to scroll through all of it to find on-topic comments.
Does anyone else agree?
1) Bob, you mislead people when you call me a supremacist. I do not believe that any race has the right to rule over others. I never have. Your straw-man arguments are lame and grossly unfair. You are not an ethical debater.
2) Misrepesentation and name calling are the resort of debaters who defend weak argument.
3) The most racist state in the world is Israel, where your beloved Jews live in droves. In Israel it is illegal for a person of Jewish blood to marry a person of non-Jewish blood. Israel is the most racist country in the world.
4) Judaism is the only religion I know of where you have to be a member of a particular race. That is racist.
6) The Jews whom you seem to emphatically defend claim they are divinely destined to rule the gentiles. That is supremicism. If you don't like supremacists, go rail on them, not me.
7) HWA got his much milder form of racism, which I believe you condemn, from the Jewish bible ... he thought America was Israel, the chosen people.
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