This was posted by Kieren Underwood on theTrumpet.com website. He was subsequently fired and marked by the church for standing up to their injustices.
Hello all,
I have been writing for theTrumpet.com for nearly three years, and have been a student at Herbert W. Armstrong College for nearly four. Many of you have spoken with me at services, invited me to your homes, and been my friends.
But let me tell you a little bit about what I’ve learned.
If you don’t believe any of the following, check DTSearch to see for yourself. Or better yet, go to the library in the Hall of Administration and check the physical Plain Truth archives.
No man knows “the day or the hour” of Christ’s return, right? Well, Mr. Armstrong thought he did.
• In 1934, Mr. Armstrong said the “Day of the Lord” would begin in 1936. (see attachment for his diagram)
• "...the year 1936 will see the end of the Times of the Gentiles.... we may expect the present worldwide depression, time of trouble and fear of war to continue until the year 1936!... quickly after that time, we may expect to see the heavenly signs of the sun and moon becoming dark, the stars falling.... which shall be followed by the ‘Day of the Lord.’" (The Plain Truth, June-July 1934, Herbert Armstrong, p. 5)
• In 1940, he said it was 3-4 years away:
• "...Armageddon, we believe, must be at least three or four years away..." ("Democracy Doomed!" The Plain Truth, April-May 1940, Herbert W. Armstrong)
• In 1953, according to Dr. Hoeh’s chronologies, HWA said it would probably come no later than 1982.
• "Now HERE IS SOMETHING STARTLING! Herman Hoeh, in his eye-opening article you will read in the June number of The PLAIN TRUTH on the Times of the Gentiles shows that the Times of the Gentiles—if chronologies are correct—will come to their final end in the year 1982." ...
• "IF THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES END IN 1982, in October, as Mr. Hoeh has it figured, THE INVASION OF AMERICA AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION MUST BEGIN NOT LATER THAT MARCH-APRIL, 1972!" (Herbert W. Armstrong, Co-Worker letter, May 22, 1953)
• In 1969, it was only 25 years off.
• "If that unseen Hand does not exist, humanity will not survive on earth another 25 years, or less! …” (The Ambassador College Correspondence Course, Lesson 5, 1969, p. 15)
Mr. Armstrong made—literally—hundreds of these false predictions. (See: https://hwarmstrong.com/prophet-1.htm or http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/mike_ep/exam/dates.htm) Between 1934 and 1946, he prophesied that: the plagues of Joel would occur in 1935, Mussolini and Hitler were the 7th resurrection of HRE, WWII was the last war—leading to Armageddon, Mussolini (and later, Hitler) would unite the 10 kings of Europe, Hitler would “inflict terrible Tribulation upon God’s saints,” etc.
Mr. Flurry (“raising the ruins”) continues in this manner:
• Remember it was to be “one generation” after the death of HWA that Christ returned? Well, it’s been 32 years.
• It was the “last hour” in 2001. And then it was the “last half of the last hour” in 2008. Let me do some quick math… (The back of the textbook says: 2015)
• In a sermon in 2008, during PYC, Mr. Flurry said he believed the Tribulation would be here in “five years or less.” Go ahead, check your notes.
• Remember the “Hebrews” revelation? Three or four years, right? Start counting down.
• I hear that in the last ministerial conference, Mr. Flurry said it could be as soon as one year! Boy, better pack your bags!
Ask yourself, how many times have I heard, “it’s only a few short years”?
Remember President Obama was the Antiochus? (By the way, I’ll give $1000 to the person who can tell me where the Bible mentions THREE end-time Antiochus-like figures—you know, the church, political, and European ones.) Well, I guess the world didn’t end with Obama, so it’s time for Jeroboam!
Yes, Jeroboam is surely President Trump. Never mind that there were TWO Jeroboams who ruled Israel. Jeroboam I turned Israel away from God (around 920 BC). Jeroboam II was the one who Amos prophesied against (around 780 BC). They are separated by nearly 140 years. Can someone tell me which Jeroboam is Mr. Trump? Also, set your countdown, because when Mr. Trump doesn’t send you to Jerusalem, this church is finished.
But what about Brexit? Remember that 1956 quote on the front cover of the Trumpet: “Britain will not be part of it”? Guess where it came from. A book published in 1956 called “1975 in Prophecy.” Let me give you another quote from that book. Mr. Armstrong was writing of the famines which would hit America: “Indications of prophecy are that this drought ... will strike sooner than 1975— probably between 1965 and 1972!” Go ahead and check the book yourself—it’s on DTSearch. And the internet (http://www.herbert-armstrong.org/Books%20&%20Booklets/1975%20in%20Prophecy%20(1956).pdf).
Modern-day Assyria is Germany, right? How do you know? Really, how do you know? Did you research it? Only a handful of people in this church could even give a semblance of an answer. (Maybe send Mr. Palmer or Mr. Vejil an email.) Perhaps they might mutter something about “they’re both warlike.” Mr. Armstrong spent a whole TWO sentences proving it in “The United States and Britain in Prophecy.” Go ahead, ask the people in your congregation how they know. Better yet, ask it as a Spokesman Club topics question. Or even better still, go ask one of those confused people in the Assyrian Church of the East. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East) They’re so deceived (Rev 12:9) they don’t even know what race they are! (Attached is a critique of theTrumpet.com’s “The Remarkable Identity of the German People.”)
But Mr. Armstrong “restored all things,” right? Have a look at the Christadelphians—founded in 1848. Doctrines include: Bible is inspired word of God; rejection of Trinity; Father and Son are separate; Kingdom of God is to be set up on earth; reject immortality of the soul; death is merely sleeping for saints; full-immersion baptism; Christ will reign on earth 1000 years; must keep commandments; hell is just the grave; mainstream Christianity has been paganized. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christadelphians#Beliefs)
Mr. Armstrong restored all these things—except that they were already established … 40 years before he was born.
But he gave us the “master key” for prophecy, right? The United States and Britain are Manasseh and Ephraim, right? Did you know that theory was created in 1794, and was most popular in the 1870s? It’s called British-Israelism. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism) And just like the Assyria-Germany theory, you probably don’t know much of the details. Did you check the Irish annals yourself? Did you check to see whether Tea-Tephi was a real person, or just made up? (“Tea Tephi” is NEVER mentioned in Irish history. She is a combination of two real people: one called “Tea” and the other “Tephi.”) And did you know that “Tephi” is called a “daughter of Pharoah” in one of the only times she is mentioned in the Irish annals? Did you know that Ollam Fodla (apparently Jeremiah) is mentioned in the Irish legends as a native “Milesian king”? And that he lived around 1000 BC (not 500 BC)? Did you check? Or did you take Mr. Armstrong’s word as gospel? See David Baron for a critique of British-Israelism—written in 1915! (https://archive.org/details/historyoftenlost00barouoft)
Are you afraid to check? Wouldn’t want to check with the “scholars.” Oh yes, vain “scholarship” is a code word, meaning “disagrees with Mr. Armstrong.”
Have you read Mr. Flurry’s “True History of God’s True Church”? Why not compare it with Andrew Dugger’s and Clarence O. Dodd’s “A History of the True Church” (1936). They are virtually the same.
What about Malachi’s Message? Hundreds of you have told me you knew it was “the word of God.” Have you heard of the book “The Letter to Laodicea,” which was published--in stages--from 1986 to 1988? Jules Dervaes, who wrote it, began mailing them to WCG members in 1988—and even sent a copy to Mr. Flurry. (http://thehiddenyears.org/1990/09/26/letter-to-mr-flurry-from-jules-dervaes/)
Try reading the book of Malachi. Maybe—just maybe—could it be that when it talks about “the covenant with Levi,” it actually means Levi? No, no, it must be Herbert W. Armstrong. Could Jacob and Esau really be talking about Jacob and Esau? No, no, it must be talking about Jacobite and Edomite LAODICEANS. Remember everyone, “the word of Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Flurry is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword…” (Hebrews 4:12).
But Elijah must come and restore all things, right? Try reading Matthew 17:12 (without Mr. Flurry whispering commentary in your ear). “But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.” Jesus is screaming at you: “I said he already came! How much clearer could I be?!”
New Throne, New Stone? Hmmm… why is the British throne still around? Oh, right, it’s corrupt and crumbling, according to Mr. Flurry. The evidence? Prince Harry shenanigans, marrying Meghan Markle, and trying to help people’s mental health (how terrible!). How about Henry VIII having 6 wives and killing 2 of them? What about Mary 1 (“Bloody Mary”) trying to establish Catholicism in England and killing Christians? (That’s nothing compared to Meghan Markle!)
What about our book “He Was Right”? Here’s the secret on how we produced that book: (1) find predictions Mr. Armstrong made, (2) ignore every prediction that was wrong, and (3) write about every prediction that may come true in the future.
The whole theTrumpet.com website is an exercise in this type of logic. We scour the news for events that look like fulfilled prophecy (this is called selection bias). We ignore everything that does not fit with our framework (this is called dishonesty). You then read it and believe it (this is called confirmation bias).
Mr. Flurry often says, “We have been warning American and Britain for 80 years!” He should be saying, “We have been wrong for 80 years.”
I will no doubt be “marked” for this email. I might even get a mention in a sermon or two. They will say, “He is inspired by Satan.” They will warn you, “Look at how clever and powerful the devil is.” But they will not address the facts. They will not give a rebuttal—that would be too dangerous.
But will you prove all things? (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
Many of you have been my friends for years. This college has taught me many things. Its teachers have been generous and kind. This church does many wonderful things—I have many good memories.
But one thing it does not do well is tell the truth.
I hereby renounce every article I have ever written for theTrumpet.com.
If you have any questions, please email me at: kierenjunderwood@gmail.com. Or for more information, see: http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/. Please forward this email to anyone who you think needs to read it.
(I have scans of the Plain Truth from 1934-1946, where HWA makes all kinds of prophecies about 1936, World War II, and Mussolini and Hitler as the “last resurrection of the HRE,” if anyone would like to see them.)
Thanks for reading,
KIEREN UNDERWOOD
EDITORIAL
theTrumpet.com | Edstone Hall | Wootton Wawen, B95 6DDTel:
+44 01789 581910 |
kjunderwood@HWACollege.org
FYI Kieren...I will post anything you want to send me! Congratulations on achieving freedom!
76 comments:
Wow! Just wow!
Why is Assad called a "dictator" by the Western media and Western politicians. He is the ELECTED president of Syria!
Flurry is an idiot who relies on the usual liars for "information".
It is fascinating reading and watching the Armstrongite churches dissolve around us day by day. The rot is getting overpowering so much so that people can no longer be part of it.
I don't think the email address at Satan's college is still gonna work.
The fact he posted this on the Trumpet blog was great! I hope a few readers got to see it before PCG deleted it. Those that have left PCG and those that visit the dissident blogs and websites will get to see it, but the average PCG will not unless it is passed around underground - which it is! PCG members are emailing this around as I got it sent to me by a student in Edstone.
Kieren has obviously been studying some of the same materials that the rest of us have been aware of! In a perfect world, this revelation would spell the end of the Armstrong scam, not only for PCG, but across the board including all the splinters. Unfortunately, the twisters and spinners will go to work reassuring and lying to the members and telling them exactly what most of them want to hear. Let’s just be thankful for whatever members end up being free as a result of Kieren Underwood’s honesty.
Who ever expected such awesome news to begin summer of 2018?
BB
Underwood what a surname, any relation to Frank Underwood ? Seriously feathers will be flying behind the scenes in PCG.
Give it another decade or two and the ACOG satanic cults will fall away into nothing!
God bless him! And welcome to the club Kieren! :-)
I know in my own experience it's difficult at first to start questioning everything you've believed to be true. But, as Christ-followers we must be like the Bereans who "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:110 and as Paul exhorted "prove all things" (1 Thess 5:21). Even our Christ said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Jn 8:32).
It's said that ignorance is bliss, but it's not! And when your eyes are open to the truth that a lot of HWA's eclectic theology is scripturally and historically inaccurate you begin on the road to true Freedom, the road to Truth. And that road is Jesus Christ! Believe Him Not any man. Follow your conscience. Not the compulsions of any man.
Those who have followed Armstrong's dogmatic views project a lie that what they teach or preach is what HWA originally taught or preached. But, when you scratch the surface you learn there are a host of divisions and differences about everything he taught and preached (e.g. holy days, calendar, 3 days & 3 nights, tithing, dinosaurs, Melchizedek, British royals being of Davidic origin, divorce & remarriage, Elijah to come, Hislop's "Two Babylons" conspiracy theory, church government, etc.). Sadly many who are attracted to the slick marketing of the ACOGs publications never look beyond what they're formally told in those same publications i.e. The interpretation being passed off as the "truth" and as HWA's original teaching is more than likely a) false or b) 1 of many possible interpretations and c) what HWA taught after he changed his mind on the issue countless times demonstrating his fallibility!
Anyway I suggest readers to check out J. Phillip Arnold's excellent article, "Who taught HWA?" on the origins of HWA's major beliefs in the last issue of The Journal! Very good research and eye-opening that shows the progression of HWA's belief system regarding the family of God and the second resurrection--both of which Arnold argues were derived from Jehovah's Witnesses founder Charles T. Russel! And knowing what I know about HWA taking various beliefs from various people or groups (e.g. British Israelism, Seventh Day Adventism, Catholicism, etc.) or his personal life (e.g. incestuous relationship, masturbation addiction, etc.) the more I learn about him the less I am surprised that he and his teachings are idolized by his followers or these groups are falling apart!
Christ said 'follow me' 23 times in the New Testament. I hope Kieren has only stopped attending a flawed corporate church.
Good for Kieren Underwood!! Really liked his breakdown of the process: author applying selection bias, dishonesty, and the reader applying confirmation bias.
I wanted to think they were deluded, not lying. But the plagiarism is impossible to explain away.
Kieren wrote: "Mr. Flurry’s “True History of God’s True Church”? Why not compare it with Andrew Dugger’s and Clarence O. Dodd’s “A History of the True Church” (1936). They are virtually the same."
This 1936 book was originally plagiarized by HWA, wasn't it? Someone close to me stumbled onto Dugger and Dodd's book in '73, starting a process of awakening for a few of us.
I appreciate this forum and the resources online. Thanks to NO2HWA!
The one thing that HWA will go into the history books as (eventually) is that he ranks as the number one fraud of the 20th century.
He accomplished this task because most people do not research a subject deep enough before accepting it as truth. Mind you, before the internet this activity wasn't available to all, but now there is no excuse. The only thing that holds one back, is laziness or a mind so dull that one could be classified as retarded.
Kieren wrote: "...But one thing it does not do well is tell the truth..."
Excellent job, Kieren, exposing so much "junk food," which many on this site have been aware of for some time...and yet, so many are still looking forward to the soon-coming MMM (Mickey Mouse Millennium) to be established with Jesus Christ reigning on earth.
It is interesting to see how people make up phrases that can't be found in the Bible, such as "the second coming," "the unpardonable sin," "the third resurrection," etc., and spin various theories regarding these phrases, little realizing it was all like building a house on sand. Kieren, like the rest of us, we're learning to hate evil in a world that was made subject to vanity (Romans 8:20), but there is hope!
You cited I Thess 5:21, which says: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
Continue to eliminate the "junk food," and hold fast to the good ("milk" and "strong meat,") unless they too are exposed to also be "junk food" in disguise.
An elder in the Philadelphia group, whose initials are CW, left WCG many years ago and many have been wondering how could that ever happen to such a man? "Junk Food" can be so nice looking, and appear to be full of so much nourishment......until deception is exposed for what it really was/is, the truth is revealed, and the Junk Food is finally abandoned...
Life goes on and time will tell...
John
Thank God! The Philadelphia Church is one of the most odious manifestations of Armstrongism extant today. They excel at scaring, deceiving and separating people from each other. I hope that Kieren's post will be widely viewed by Philadelphians - much more persuasive when it comes from one of your own.
Here is a link that works for 1975 in prophecy:
https://hwarmstrong.com/ambassador.report/armstrong/1975-in-prophecy.html
Now if Mike Germano would do something similar for the benefit of LCG members...
Wouldn't it be great to see a sudden groundswell of newly "woke" ACOG members?
This guy knew it was all bullshit. Then he got fired and decided to spill the beans on the scam.
That is why they are called hirelings.
Many churches establish colleges for the purpose of educating future leaders and spreading the one 'true' gospel. These colleges are heavily subsidised by their church, enabling a inexpensive education for its students. I recall reading a Trumpet article stating that it costs its student only a few thousand dollars to graduate. By contrast, the average liberal arts course in America costs $133,000.
So it's only justice that Kieren repay the PCG this sum of money.
The excuses he gives were common knowledge while he was doing his course, but chose not to leave until he finished his education. As far as I'm concerned, he's doing a Judas Iscariot. I experienced this with a former employer. The company spent hundreds of thousand of dollars per person training its employees, yet these people told me that they would work for another company if offered only a few thousand more dollars. This is treachery.
Notice Kieren didn't say he left to escape abusive mistreatment. Again, he should do the honorable, moral thing and pay the church for his education.
Am I reading it right? The Armstrongs said that the "time of the GENITALS" was going to end in 1982?
This was a wrong prophecy! It appears that the time of GTAs GENITALS continued on at least to 1995!
What a brave young man. Of course his email address has been deleted. If anyone has his address, please send it tome.
danmoffett54 @ gmail com
“You see, many of my ex-PCG friends have turned their backs on God and have become atheists because of what they experienced in 'God's church'--and because of what is continuing to happen in the PCG. Their mentality is that there is no God because of (what they perceive as) God's non-intervention in punishing Gerald Flurry for what he has done to people.”
It cannot be emphasized enough that the PCG is a satanic imposter cult led by a false prophet. The PCG's very purpose is to destroy people by doing Satan's own evil to them in the name of God.
Each lying, slandering, local tyrant in the PCG gets to pass off his own satanic abuse as the government of God.
Actually I left 6 months before completing my "degree" which is worse than useless in the eyes of any company.
I left on my own accord, was not fired, and was in good standing at the time. And I was definitely not a hireling--I believed everything wholeheartedly until the point that I no longer could based on what I had studied.
Would you be able to send me an email letting me know which student emailed it to you? Thanks very much.
- Kieren Underwood
Anonymous on June 18, 2018 at 6:32 AM said...
“I recall reading a Trumpet article stating that it costs its student only a few thousand dollars to graduate. By contrast, the average liberal arts course in America costs $133,000. So it's only justice that Kieren repay the PCG this sum of money.”
“Again, he should do the honorable, moral thing and pay the church for his education.”
A PCG “education” (that is, brainwashing) is worth much less than nothing, so the PCG should do the honorable, moral thing and pay him some compensation.
The PCG should do the honorable, moral thing and repay the money that it defrauded its members out of with all of Gerald Flurry's “new revelation” lies that he “flooded” the PCG with.
FYI Kieren,
Your effort is appreciated by several members of my family, and has helped them put things into a better and more realistic perspective.
Thank you!
Anonymous on June 18, 2018 at 6:32 AM said...“As far as I'm concerned, he's doing a Judas Iscariot. I experienced this with a former employer. The company spent hundreds of thousand of dollars per person training its employees, yet these people told me that they would work for another company if offered only a few thousand more dollars. This is treachery.”
Noticed the needle moving on the BS meter.
Did the company really pay someone $100,000.00 an hour to train each employee for 3 hours?
Connie, Herbert W Armstrong's "time of the GENITALS" occurred for a large portion of his daughter Dorothy's life while he repeatedly raped her.
GTA's "time of the GENITALS" occurred for much of his time while alive.
(Of course there was the video showing GTA prancing naked while pulling on his wiener while he continued as a sexual predator, trying to victimize yet another woman.)
I see James Malm has copied and pasted your entire post to his blog as if he received it. He plagiarizes from this blog a lot, but I also began to notice that many of his articles were plagiarized from other sources and presented as if he wrote them too.
Incredible.
One of the greatest referenced take-downs of Armstrong that I've seen online in recent years - right down to admitting the process used to write "He Was Right". Not only did he state exactly what truth was - he saved screenshots, articles, and gave concrete evidence to the reality of events, posted it as a blog entry on the site itself, like sticking a knife in the lion's mouth, and when it hit the internet, became immortalized forever.
The TRUTH sets a person FREE. What he posted was irrefutable.
Until Thiel gets a hold of this and tries to refute it all...in 3..2..1.... (LOL)
I see James Malm has copied and pasted your entire post to his blog as if he received it. He plagiarizes from this blog a lot, but I also began to notice that many of his articles were plagiarized from other sources and presented as if he wrote them too.
I guess he feels he can because that's what HWA and Company did too. I guess it's the old "If HWA Did it, it must be right".
The Church of Plagiarism.
KyRustic
His email address is listed a couple paragraphs above his signature. It is a gmail address.
Kieren said:
"I left on my own accord, was not fired, and was in good standing at the time. And I was definitely not a hireling--I believed everything wholeheartedly until the point that I no longer could based on what I had studied. "
This is what I figured happened before you even posted this because it was so much like my experience in so many ways. Thank you for standing up for truth.
8.56 AM
The total money spent on training new people divided by the number of these new people gives several hundred thousand dollars. This was over several years. This was in the tele communication industry. A company spending such sums, and then having these people leave to work for another company offering slightly better pay, is legal, but morally stealing.
After this experience, I'd think long and hard about investing in other people, be it job wise or socially. Beware, as The Big Guy said.
This is fabulous.
I wish there were a way to share it with more Armstronites!
A commenter above posted that "most people do not research a subject" and that is so true. I speak from 1st hand experience. When I cam into LCG through the man I was dating at the time, I was encouraged to read all the booklets and Mr. Armstrong's autobiography. I took it for face value. It never occurred to research it any further.
After nearly 15 years of sitting in the headquarters congregation of LCG I was 100% positive that LCG was not God's church. The corruption, lies and abuse of brethren was/is appalling. Once I lost my trust and respect for LCG leadership I started to wonder about other things.
I dove into BI head-first. When I discovered that it was total crap, another brick crumbled.
Next was the government of God.
Subsequently, brick by brick, the entirety of Armstrongism crumbled into oblivion. Then I read Romans and Galations (mic drop).
At the same time I started to read about Armstrong church history. I learned about all the horrible abuses that have happened over the decades in the name of God in WCG and her splinters. I read about all the divisions and all the tyrants. Armstrong churches have left a wake of broken, hurt people in their paths. It's disgusting. And they have the nerve to look down on the Catholic church??? It's not like this is ancient history and it's STILL HAPPENING TODAY IN ALL THE BRANCHES.
I think a lot of people know it's total BS but they have dedicated so much of their lives to it they feel trapped. Others know they will lose every friend and, in many cases, family if they were to decide to open their eyes to reality. Some prefer to stay ignorant because it's just easier than admitting their life's work is wrong and working for change (at least in their minds).
The truth is that rooting this poisonous, doctrinally incorrect, unloving, Christ-denying religion out of your life is LIBERATING!
My relationship with God has grown 10 fold since leaving LCG.
Fear is of the devil. If your church uses fear to gain the submission of it's members, who's church are you really in?
Constance at 9:13 wrote:
"I see James Malm has copied and pasted your entire post to his blog as if he received it. He plagiarizes from this blog a lot, but I also began to notice that many of his articles were plagiarized from other sources and presented as if he wrote them too."
There is a reason I call him a Pharisee. The law is for everyone else but him. Those that demand the law be kept to the letter are usually the most unethical people you could ever meet, at least in the COG.
9:59 -
If a company is going to spend 100,000 dollars on new-hire training, then cannot make up the difference of "slightly better pay" for retention of these trainees, it is not the new hire employee's fault, neither is it "morally stealing". It is called "competition" and in the business world, that's how it works. Companies recruit other workers all the time, sometimes covertly, sometimes outright. You cannot blame the employee for working at another telecom for "slightly better pay". This, again, is business. If you're going to spend hundreds of thousands to train new hires, you better have the retention policies and pay to reduce turnover and keep your employees. Also, if an employee is that quick to leave a company for better pay, then perhaps there are other issues at play here involved in retention.
It is BAD strategy to invest so much in training, and not be able to retain employees based on another company's slightly higher income. And if they can't meet the income, they can retain in other ways. Apparently they could not.
As far as the college goes - it's not a corporation. He chose to go, he chose to leave. He did not attain a diploma. He paid what he paid, and it is his right to leave early. He does not owe the college one cent for anything. And morally, if he DID give the college one more cent, it'd be MORE morally wrong, because he would be knowingly enabling what he knows to be liars and deceivers.
It is not always about the money. But with PCG - it most certainly is. And if I read your postings correctly, it seems that that's your focus, too.
Its good that Kieren is getting out of Flurry's tyranny. No question HWA made ,any wild predictions in an attempt to scare people into joining. Totally unchristian.
However it should be pointed out that while Christadelphians have similar beliefs they also differ in major ways. They don't believe Christ existed before his birth, they believe the Law was done away, and reject the Sabbath and Holy Days.
John @ 3:53 AM brought up the made up phrase, "the third resurrection". Yeah, I always had a problem with that as there is mentioned a 'second death'. How then, could there be a third resurrection? Never did add up and never got an answer to that one.
"Church eras" is another made up phrase that is nowhere found in the bible. I've long thought that phrase was used to enable the "we're better than you" attitude so prominent in the COG's. Was it used to divide and conquer? The way it reads, it sounds like every one of those churches (strengths and problems)was concurrent. Then and now. But what could little peons understand without the high and mighty gurus telling them what the (cough, cough) truth is?
I see dimwit Malm copied the same bad url over. the man has no integrity! Will he have the balls to apologize for lying to his 15 followers or will he remain an impotent Pharisee who breaks the law?
10.25 AM
You don't seem to comprehend the meaning of "there ain't no free lunch." This is unsurprising considering today's freebies political culture, re-enforced by Herbs 'give way' preaching. Companies invest in new people by training them. There is a tacit contract that these trained personal will give the company a return on their investment, rather than fly the coop as soon as they are trained. Slapping the label competition of this breach of contract, does not change the reality.
Kieren was legally free to leave at any time, but not so morally since he did not pay for his education. Rather, it was mostly poor tithing members who paid for his education. The evil in the church does not give him a right to rob these people. Robbing the poor (Robin Hood in reverse) is not a admirable trait.
Here I am - always the nerd. I read the critique of the article “The Remarkable Identity of the German People.” The critique was interesting and focused on the misuse of historical documents by the PCG author. All I can say is that the science of genetics makes everything so much easier. One does not have to wonder about the unverifiable historical veracity of an ancient text.
This may sound complex but it is really very easy. God created the human genome to keep track of everything. Adam's line led to the Jews and in not that many generations. There was not time for any significant mutation in that relatively little span of time. So Adam was, working backward, Haplogroup J like most of the other people in the Middle East.
And, of course, Asshur, also descended from Adam and closely related to the Jews was also Haplogroup J. And, hence, modern day Asshur will be Haplogroup J with whatever admixture they encountered along the paths of history.
The Germans are predominantly Haplogroups R1a and R1b. This makes the Germans not a Middle Eastern people but an Indo-European people. The R1b Haplogroup in western Germany shows a Celtic origin not unlike the British.
I have said enough. All this can be laid out in great detail. A final word is that the PCG author stated that the modern Germans and ancient Assyrians looked like each other. That is patently false. The Ancient Assyrians depicted themselves uniformly with black, very curly hair. (I know, they dyed it and curled it.) Human pigmentation aside, the Assyrian features look like Middle Eastern and not West European features.
How this pseudo-history can be written nowadays is what is "remarkable." That it can be believed is even more "remarkable."
“Many of you have been my friends for years. This college has taught me many things. Its teachers have been generous and kind. This church does many wonderful things—I have many good memories.” -- Kieren Underwood
You can expect some things to change now. You are about to find out about all the nasty things that the PCG does.
The so-called “friends” will want to unfriend you. The so-called “teachers” will want to flunk you. The so-called “church” will want to dismember you.
You cannot tell the truth inside the PCG and get away with it. You cannot even listen to the truth from inside the PCG and get away with it. Anyone who still talks to you will be at risk of getting kicked out.
I hope you warned as many people as you could in the PCG.
NEO is pretty sure: "This may sound complex but it is really very easy. God created the human genome to keep track of everything. Adam's line led to the Jews and in not that many generations. There was not time for any significant mutation in that relatively little span of time. So Adam was, working backward, Haplogroup J like most of the other people in the Middle East."
lol
NEO took pains to write:
"All I can say is that the science of genetics makes everything so much easier. One does not have to wonder about the unverifiable historical veracity of an ancient text. This may sound complex but it is really very easy. God created..."
Easy? lol
Wait, I thought you said we didn't have to wonder about the veracity of ancient texts. So then, we can dispense with the god stuff, right? That's theology, not science.
"...Adam's line led to the Jews and in not that many generations. There was not time for any significant mutation in that relatively little span of time. So Adam was, working backward, Haplogroup J like most of the other people in the Middle East..."
Wait, no Adam stuff either. Also not science. Believers have historically moved the goalposts on gods, to continually claim domains for them beyond the purview of science. So science may not be able disprove gods, but that's not so for the Adam & Eve tale. Genetics research by Durbin & Li conclusively disproves any bottlenecks smaller than 1,200 people at any time in our past. Note that this is not 2 people, nor is it 8 people.
Don't get me wrong, it's great that you don't deny more science than you do...but...if you want to claim the mantle of the nerd scientist, you can't pick and choose your science. If you want to rely on scientific conclusions from genetics, you can't take just one you happen to think you can twist and insert into your theology, but then deny the ones that can't be twisted so easily.
Adam was not haplogroup J, because he wasn't any haplogroup at all. Herakles, incidentally, also wasn't any haplogroup as mythical figures do not have Y chromosomes.
You can't insert mythology and theology into science then try to derive conclusions, and think you're getting anywhere.
Easy.
@ 3:46 ~ Sorry, Buckwheat. We’re talking about an ACOG here, a mass murdering cult (thru their medical doctrines), one that defrauds and enslaves people thru false doctrines and Hitlerian authority. Anything you can do to fuck up an ACOG and free its slaves is your moral duty.
Both Adam and Eve as well as Noah trace back to Halogroyp M for mythological. We pulled down their mutant genes and got nothin'
A HUGE step in the right direction. BTW, The title "He was Right" is laughable. A book called "He was WRONG" would take about three volumes
Anna Lytic:
I see your point. You regard Adam as a mythical character like Hercules so how can he have a Haplogroup at all. First, I cannot prove that Adam was a real character in history. For that matter, I cannot prove that Herbert Hoover was a real character in history. In both cases we must rely on historical records and various authorities. I will admit that Adam might have been allegorical. His name is a play on words. But I doubt it because of the way he is treated in the Biblical genealogies.
So let me say that it is highly plausible that Adam was a real character in history. But I do not believe that he had the role that the King James translators created for him. He was the progenitor of a group of clans (cf. Genesis for wording) in the Middle East and probably lived in the late Neolithic. He was not the progenitor or "father" of all of mankind in the biological sense but rather the "father" in the spiritual/cultural/social sense (Cf. Paul).
Y-chromosomal Adam (Cf. Wikipedia) was a Black man who lived in Africa and was either Haplogroup A or very similar to Haplogroup A. And he was alive on this planet long before the spiritual/cultural/social Adam of Genesis (about 300,000 years ago). Everybody is descended from him genetically as well as in some cases (for peoples outside of Africa) being descended from Neanderthals in a small way.
Whoever, let us say, the Jews are descended from, He was Haplogroup J. This means that Asshur who was in the same genealogy and was also a descendant must also be Haplogroup J. The modern Germans are not Haplogroup J, hence, they are not the modern day descendants of the ancient Assyrians. That was the point.
The theory I posit here is one that accommodates genetics, evolution and the Bible. From my perspective, this is the theory that you have to strike down in order to declare that science stands in opposition to the Bible.
And you cannot assert that Adam, Abraham and the genealogy in Genesis are all mythological at the outset because you cannot prove that this is so.
Neo
Why cant "the assyrians" just be a misnomer, just like "the indians" were a misnomer by a continent or pi ramesses in the biblw which is a later misnomer for the earlier city of avaris. So "the assyrians" so called may not descend from ashur.
Every persom in the world noes the germans and celts came from the black sea.
MEO's genetics are not proving anything UNLESS ancient bone material is analysed of the original peoples. Neo is kinda proving that the original inhsbitants of the usa were greek since he found the bones of telly savallas.
Most Europeans come from the black sea area. The question that remains are, who are the modern jews?
Nck
Any geography student knows where the scyths, protocelts, proto germanics crossed the dardanelles into bulgaria and rumania. The mountainranges and forests would have forced them south and made them follow the danube into the hallstatt and nuremburg area, meeting the stone age inhabitants who in the north had settled along the regressing ice barier some 20.000 year before.
Much later after the collapse of the roman empire northern tribes would move into france, spain and even northern africa. Hence the blue eyes in tunesia or among the non arab peoples of northern africa. They came from central europe originally as visigoths.
Nck
My point neo is that only 2000 years ago, non of the people of france is related to modern french. Probably non of the modern people in turkey related to the roman greeks of the bible in asia minor, non of the modern syrians related to the hittites, non of the modern aystralians connected to the ancient bones in the ground and the YOU of all people force on us the assertion that the namesake ashur is in any way related to the assyrians or the jews in israel should be related to nw europeans while non of them lived in the middle east only 70 years ago?
Those are the facts I m afraid. No historian contents that the germanic and european tribes travelled along the black sea area into europe.
My personal theory based on thorough research is that ALL MYTHOLOGY regarding ancestry deals with THE ELITE leadership not the main body of the tribe. Most peoples are ruled by elites that are not of the same tribe. Hence BB's claim of the british royal family being german, which proves my point. All elites have different genetics from the people they rule over. Miss Markle is not an abberation. She is the historical norm for all royalty in the past 5000 years, as in the roman elites claiming trojan descent and pharaos being greek since alexander the great and the swedish having a french king etc etc etc.
So the elites ruling the germanic tribes seemed to have claimed assyrian descent.
Nck
NCK:
I think what you are saying is that it might be possible that the people who appeared in the pages of the Bible as Assyrians were not actually descendants of Ashur but were only wearing that moniker due to some event in history. Maybe they were an R1b/R1a people who came from around the Black Sea who raised hell in Palestine and later migrated to Germany.
The problem is when God referred to these people who were raising hell with the Jews, he actually thought they were Assyrians - that is, descended from Ashur. He did not refer to them as anything else and they were his chosen instrument for chastising the Jews. That is the moniker and the people go together.
So, in this case, we really don't have to dig up the bones of ancient Assyrians in the environs of Nineveh to determine their Haplogroup so we can be confident that they are Assyrians. The OT has done that work for us in its statements attributed to god.
But you do make a good point. Shouldn't archaeologists try to connect references in Classical History with bones in the ground. That works sometimes. But if you dug up some bones in the environs of Nineveh of the right vintage and they were Haplogroup J - these people could be Jews or Arabs or Syrians or Phoenicians or many others besides Assyrians. They were all Haplogroup J. There may be a polymorphism that belongs specifically to Assyrians but that information has not been discovered at this time.
An archaeologist may not be able to distinguish a Jew from an Assyrian based on genetics but he could easily distinguish between an ancient Assyrian (let us accept that the Table of Nations is accurate as to lineage, that god preserved the lineage and was able in later centuries to identify the Assyrian people and this same lineage so vetted can be used to infer the Assyrian Haplogroup) and a modern day German - they are that far apart.
The official position of the COGlodytes seems to be “Let’s twist and spin everything so that British Israelism gets to stay correct in spite of all the facts.”
What are you saying, nck? Only the elites have the correct dna so that God can recognize and punish?
In the past, posters have even brought up the fact that excessive drinking can alter a person’s dna, as if to suggest that alcoholics can morph amongst haplogroups. I guess they think if you drink enough Guiness, you turn into a manassite?
And this is exactly what happened with conversations... almost to the subject matter..... when I stayed after services hanging by that "one group" too long way back in the day.
ANYONE WANT TO GO OUT FOR BURGERS? MY TREAT! LETS GO BEFORE THEY LOCK US IN THIS DANG GYMNASIUM!!!!!!! LAST ONE OUT'S A ROTTEN EGG!!!!!!!
;)
Some things never change.
Anna Lytic, Helen Wheels, Sarah Tonin, and Clair Voyant are one and the same person.
Why does NCK need to make every post about himself? This is about Kieren, not NCK or his pet beliefs.
There have been multiple people writing under the Helen Wheels, Sarah Tonin, and Clair Voyant names. Anna Lytic is a registered account though, so I suppose that can't trolled in the same way.
I did not start the deviation from original topic. Look for yourself.
Nck
No 2;52.
I'm saying that when one adresses a topic one needs to understand it. German Assyrism speaks about the leadership.
19th century bi adresses the jewish and american heiresses marrying into the leading families of the british empire and 16th century israelism the break off if the german protestant princes from the habsburg pharao.
It is a political doctrine aimed at the elites to justify their power.
15th century assurism established genealogies for the austrian rulers of the known world and explaining the huge jewish communities around vienna. Or those in southern france with the septimania myths.
My questions for neo however were not political. Just historical.
I am annoyed with modern day archeologists who do all kind of interesting finds but non conducts genetic research on the bones.
This looks like a political agenda.
But hey back to kieren. I am still looking for confirmation if the story is true at all. I say nothing without double confirmation.
Nck
What, no anons complaining about "crown stealing"?
Yeah, what’s up with that? Also nothing about “qualifying”, or “evilution”.
BB
I've contacted Kieren since this article. He knows my children. My son living with me knows him. I believe him. I think we are going to hear more from him.
To whoever is trying to say Kieren should repay PCG:
- As Kieren stated, didn't finish their scam of a degree program
- That educaton (sic) from PCG is worth nothing more than the sweatshirts they sold in 2001 in which they couldn't even spell "education" properly. No refunds were given to people who had bought those crappy sweatshirts even after PCG announced that we should not wear them any more because they put the "college in a bad light"
- He wasn't fired hence not bitter for being fired.
- He has written articles for PCG that have been influential in bringing in more gullible people or making the already hooked ones drink even more koolade. These people tithed and gave offerings. Can PCG pay him back a portion of that money? If you know anything about PCG's college, it is just away for them to obtain cheap labor for their "god's work": students and campers put in a lot of labor hours that any decent organization out there would have actually paid people to do. At least the students get some housing and food out of it but anything else is just worthless.
- Are you a PCG member yourself and are pissed off that an insider has spilled the beans and cut off potential money sources for your group?
Nck 6/19/2018 @8:56PM said: "But hey back to kieren. I am still looking for confirmation if the story is true at all. I say nothing without double confirmation."
Uhh . . . but didn't you even notice Kieren actually commented thrice to this blog post under the blogger ID "Kieren" on 6/18 @8:33 and twice at 8:35AM?!
11:33
Yes I did.
My opinions are hardly based on what I find here and never on anonymouses. (except for those who have developed a "persona" over time)
You may have noticed I did only comment after many postings and did not initiate a distracting topic. I'm just treading carefully now that this young man is carving out a new track for himself, but decided to start of with a bit of a dynamite explosion so it seems "to go out with a bang".
nck
Thanks Kieren for stepping up and exposing the truth. I met and spent time with Kieren's family in Ireland and in Fredericton. Lovely people. I left when Flurry bought the plane as it was needed when he would meet world leaders a la HWA. And this talk of Flurry and the true followers being the true royal family and not the debauche worldly British royals which have been that way many many years.
And of course the stone now being HWA stone instead of the stone Jeremiah brought over to Ireland from Judah.
First person testimony has never been considered to be of value within Armstrongism, especially when it runs counter to official versions. It is always doubted, impeached, and spun. Kieren had to have known this. It required a great deal of courage for him to step up to the plate as he did!
BB
Now Malm has removed the letter stating: "After reviewing the Kieren Underwood letter which I had posted as a news item, I have decided to remove that post" (https://godourlight.info/church-of-god-news-blog-2018-1-january/)
I wonder why he did that?
Maybe he read the negative feedback about him reproducing it on his site or perhaps some commented negatively about Armstrongism on his site in response to the post and he chose to censor their comments by way of removing the entire news post? Either way it doesn't show him in a good light what he's done imo.
REPEAT
Anonymous on July 1, 2018 at 11:20 AM said...“Membership in the USA has dropped to somewhere around 3,500, but among these are some wealthy oil company men whose tithes and offerings will keep PCG at least somewhat afloat no matter how small it becomes. These are probably the true powers behind the throne, as if Flurry loses them it would be like losing hundreds, if not thousands, of average members. I imagine that Flurry goes out of his way to keep these men feeling important and listened-to.”
Do you have any way to contact these “wealthy oil company men” with information that might save them from wasting any more of their money supporting That False Prophet?
Congratulations Kieren! Thanks for speaking out.
Kď˝…ep onn writing, great job!
I think that you have brought upon your personal experience with the Spiritual issues you had no idea about what the future holds for the entire world experiencing today. Stick by the Bible Prophecies and do not ever again deviate from the truth. The end time events are just ahead of us all.
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