This just in:
More trouble with the boys in Cincinnati! This has been in the works for a while, so I am surprised it has taken so long. This will send the Chief Pharisee James Malm into a spitting fit that his inside sources did not spill the beans to him first since he has spent the last couple years bad-mouthing one of the people named below.
Two UCG ministers have left and are now with a group that centers in the Northwest, called "Pacific Church of God" .
They are recent UCG council member Mark Mickelson , who was holding controversial views about the nature of the Godhead, and longtime COG/UCG minister Wilbur Berg.Both were supposedly "retired" by UCG last year, but now are listed prominently on the Pacific Church of God website as acting pastors.The UCG has been silent about this development and is likely trying to just let this event just slip from memory.Here is the Pacific Church of God website listing the new above named ministers
Anyone want to take a bet to see how long it takes for James Malm to post this claiming it was from one of his inside sources?
40 comments:
I can see where this is about to get confusing with respect to the acronyms. Now we have two PCGs.
Also, just what is needed to bring vibrancy to a greying demographic! Two retired ministers!
BB
That's funny about Malm. I have noticed him doing that many times in the past. He copies things off of this blog and others and then claims it is from one of his inside sources.
What about Terry Swagerty?
He was listed in http://ucg-spokane.org/html/cyberarchive.html
A Friendly Reminder
By Terry Swagerty
Sermonette on Saturday, February 11, 2017, in Spokane, Washington
Putting God first is paramount. Not doing so will result in eternal death. Even though our physical bodies may be deteriorating as we age, our spiritual condition should be improving and growing stronger continuously.
But now in PCG?
The ACOGs keep splintering like breeding rabbits.
Malm endlessly writes about zealously obeying Gods laws. What exactly is zealously not stealing or zealously not committing adultery or zealously not murdering etc? I find some of his material on religious technical matters educational.
12.23 AM
Ministers preaching "Putting God first is Paramount" is laughable. It's rhetoric to hide the reality. The fact is that ministers put themselves between God and man by lording it over members. Putting God first means following Gods lead, which ministers over ride by dominating their members. It's like food one cannot eat, a car one cannot drive or money one cannot spend etc. They rob members of their right to follow God with the deceitful label of "administering Gods government." This nullifies putting God first, while insisting that their victims pretend that they are doing so.
Another example of deceitful marketing over the reality.
I feel so warm and good inside when I think of the lake of fire.
Apparently Terry Swagerty was retired from the UCG ministry too. At the UCG website his bio says...
Terry Swagerty and his wife, Linda, have one son, three daughters and 18 grandchildren. Mr. Swagerty retired from fulltime ministry in 2014.
It is likely that as more and more ministers reach the required age 72 retirement age for UCG, that they will not just accept their meager retirement stipend, and realize that they can make more by just having 10 tithe payers who follow them, and have much more freedom than being under the UCG retirement system.
Look for more of this in the future, as income for UCG drops, and more are forced into ministerial retirement. They will look around and say ..."hey , why is Johnny still employed and they retired me?, I will take my loyal following for myself". I don't expect the UCG ministry to exhibit much "take one for the team attitude" as resources and money dwindle.
Also listed in the list of leaders for Pacific Church of God, as recorded at the UCG website...
Glen White retired from the full-time employed ministry of the United Church of God in July 2016.
Joe Hasenroehl also hails in the exodus from UCG as well.
Again, the aging and elderly UCG ministry is not likely to be laid off or go peaceably off in the sunset. As long as there are two nickels to be found, they will scamper and fight over every last potential penny.
UCG is pushing 25 years old. I don't understand why these ministers did not plan for a retirement? Even if they had started with NOTHING, back in 1995, and put $5000 a year into an index fund like the SP 500, they would have about $600,000 right now in their account. But alas, those who judged you and extolled "life wisdom" at every level of living imaginable were remarkably unsuccessful in managing their own personal lives.
Tonto, just about every farcical circumstance that we see unfolding in the ACOGs today lies at the feet of the Armstrong false prophecy mold! We sometimes forget that members of the ministry, although the authors of much cruelty under the HWA governance mold, were in a damaging codependent relationship with HWA just as much as were we members. They were just on a different level. Like ourselves, some left, and others persisted. There were consequences for either choice. The Armstrong related experiences did permanent damage to all, but these manifested themselves in different ways up and down the authority scale.
Had a minister ever overtly set up any sort of independent retirement fund, it would have been viewed as disbelief in the very concept of an end times commission (“the work”).
Although those of us in business know much more about investments today, the Armstrong ministry reduced the concept of investing to “playing the stock market”. They also preached that we were going to lose our physical wealth anyway as the trib kicked in. There was very little understanding of the principles behind investment and wealth conservation, but the church was certainly glad to exploit all financially strong individuals once they became members.
The Swagerty brothers, Mike and Terry, were some of the up and comers at AC. We fully expected them and other classmates to take their places with the originals, like Rod Meredith, Herman Hoeh, the McNair brothers, the Cole Brothers, etc., as part of a vibrant last days work. I don’t know that any of the graduates from our era ever reached that stature. Actually, in many ways, even HWA was a victim of his own prophecy mold. After the disappointment with GTA, he had no plans for successors who would take up the reigns and finish “the work”.
Now, it appears that lifelong ministers who still can’t retire at age 72 will be starting up additional splinter groups. Who knows? UCG might have even secretly planned out Pacific, or it could be an unintended consequence of mandatory retirement. It could even be an Obamaesque “you get to keep your minister” thing! There are parallels in the mainstream. Major league baseball and NFL football have their alternatives, and the Hells Angels have affiliations with smaller surrogate clubs that often do their dirty work.
One thing is for sure. This latest event is just another sign of the end...........of Armstrongism!
BB
The boys of Sinsinnati have made a godless mess.
Byker Bob on February 24, 2019 at 10:55 AM said...“Had a minister ever overtly set up any sort of independent retirement fund, it would have been viewed as disbelief in the very concept of an end times commission ('the work').”
When HWA talked, he always sounded pretty sure of himself and his beliefs. He talked about having faith.
So, it was a bit surprising to read a little blurb in the WCG's Worldwide News newspaper that in his old age HWA had signed a contract with the WCG so that if he should happen to become incapacitated, or if it should turn out that we had somehow misconstrued the great commission, that he would be taken care of by the WCG for the rest of his life in the manner to which he had become accustomed.
With all the COG organizations out there why they would go to the PCG is beyond me? I listened to Mr. Railston when he was with another organization. His messages contradicted the leadership, and yet he was allowed to continue to keep speaking. I quit listening to him, and then he finally left. Good riddance!
Apparently his organization is an advocate of Jesus Christ not being the God of the OT. And these so-called ministers who were with the Disunited COG have jumped aboard the PCG train wreck. Most of us who've been around awhile, know heresy when we hear it!
I can't see why they retire the ministers at all! I mean, what do they do these days anyway, a sermon a week maybe? Not like the old days when they really PASTORED their churches by visiting and actually cared for the members. What great work do they do anymore to get them so tired out? Work em until they drop IMO.
Anonymous said..."I listened to Mr. Railston when he was with another organization. His messages contradicted the leadership, and yet he was allowed to continue to keep speaking. I quit listening to him, and then he finally left...Apparently his organization is an advocate of Jesus Christ not being the God of the OT. February 24, 2019 at 3:02 PM
So which organization was Railston with prior to Pacific?
And didn't the WCG go through a similar shakeup decades ago with Ken Westby and his unitarian position? So Mickelson is a unitarian as well then and after being cast out by the UCG Council convinced Railston of his view who has gone on to give him a position to teach the same in PCG?
6.17 PM
"Pastored their churches?" What universe are you from? Rather, they always lorded it over their churches. Now that the ministers have slowed down from old age, members might finally get some peace from their meddling shenanigans.
Unitarianism is the belief that there is only one God, and that Jesus is a non-preexisting created being who became the first begotten son of God. It’s been around for a long time. To learn more, Google “Arian Heresy”
You don’t necessarily need to be a Unitarian to believe that Jesus was not the God of the Old Testament. In fact, most mainstream Christians believe that Father YHWH God is the God of the OT.
Ken Westby left the WCG back in 1974-5 over a completely different set of issues than the “one God” belief. That came along later. I don’t know who introduced it to the church membership, but Sir Anthony Buzzard has been mentioned in that light.
BB
I think many of the comments here are missing the point. Those who retired from the UCG and who are risking their pensions are not doing it to earn more money than their pension provides. Even they know there are not, and will not ever be enough suckers to join the PCG and pay tithes. So why did they do this? What overrides their common sense?
Their level of narcissism drives an “attention addiction.” Since being retired they are not called “Mr.” enough, idolized enough, or asked for their “wisdom” enough. Their need for self-importance has guided their entire lives in the way they treated others, and how they acted as so-called ministers.
"Look at ME everybody... I'm STILL important!"
Mark Mickelson went to Pac-COG (as opposed to Philadelphia) months ago. Yet UCG kept his sermons posted on the local website, with NO NAME on them.
And here's another one for you. One-time UCG Pastor Scott Hoefker, who doesn't seem to be anywhere near retirement age, apparently has moved to the much smaller Living God Ministries. Check the schedule:
http://haggai114.net/?page_id=79
I also believe that the Father was the God in the Old Testament just as he is God in the New.
(Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld his glory...
Ex 40:34b and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
And just as the Word dwelt with the lost sheep of the House of Israel in the NT he also dwelt/ tabernacled with Israel in the OT).
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Jn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jn 20:17b I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
“... the most remarkable thing that happened in the faith of the earliest followers of Jesus is that they came to identify him - Jesus - with Yahweh, in calling him Lord, and in many other ways. So, yes it is certainly true, from a whole-Bible perspective, that the God Yahweh of the Old Testament ‘embodies’ (if that is not too human a word) the Son... But on the whole it is probably more appropriate in most cases that, when we read about Yahweh, we should have God the Father in mind” (Christopher J. H. Wright, Knowing God the Father through the Old Testament, p.17).
For example:
Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Jn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
“The parable of the good shepherd in Jn 10:1-16, which has this oracle [Eze 34:23-31] as its OT background, implies Jesus’ claim to be the Davidic Messiah: the ‘one shepherd’ of Jn 10:16 is a deliberate echo of the same phrase here in v.23 (see also 37:22-24)” (F.F. Bruce, Ezekiel, The Pickering Bible Commentary for Today, p.890).
Eze 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
Jn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jn 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
“See also the close relation between I, the LORD, and my servant David in v.24 is reproduced in the close relation between the Father and the Son in their joint protection of the sheep in Jn 10:27-29” (F.F. Bruce, Ezekiel, The Pickering Bible Commentary for Today, p.890).
“ANTONOMASIA: the use of a proper name to designate a member of a class (as a Solomon for a wise ruler); also: the use of an epithet or title in place of a proper name (as the Bard for Shakespeare)... from Greek, from antonomazein to call by a new name” (Merriam-Webster Online).
“... The father inspires Malachi to write in Mal 4:5 Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. This is a figure of speech called an antonomasia, which Webster defines as the use of the name of some office, instead of the true name of the person. It is common in languages that when you want to show that one person is like another you call him by that name. You might see a kid jumping on a bed and say stop acting like tarzan or a basketball player makes a great shot and you say nice shot Michael. The Messiah is called David in Ezekiel 37:24. The kingdom of Judah is called Sodom and Gomorrah, not literally but it is acting like [them]. God said he would sent Elijah before the great day of the Lord. Not the Elijah who lived and died, but someone with his fiery spirit, like John the Baptist in Christ’s day...” (Mark Lee, post to a Biblical forum).
Thanks BB for the clarification! :-)
I understand that there are other Christians that are Unitarian in belief and deny Jesus Christ's pre-existence or believe He was a created being like the archangel Michael. I'll have to check out Sir Anthony Buzzard as it's a name I'm not familiar with.
And thanks Yes and No to HWA for those enlightening excerpts! :-)
Personally I believe that God the Father is THE God of the Old and New Testaments, but the issue I'm trying to reconcile is what role do we give to Christ in the OT since it's written that no one has seen or heard God the Father who is invisible.
And, I believe, if my understanding is correct, Mickelson teaches it was God the Father who was both seen and heard in the visions of the OT with the patriarchs and prophets; that there are 2 Gods, but 1 Yahweh; and thus passages referring to the LORD (ie Yahweh) that have been interpreted in the past to refer to Christ (eg Zech 14:4) are now interpreted by Mickelson to mean God the Father since there is only 1 Yahweh according to Mickelson's view.
I find this at odds with my understanding that the Yahweh that WAS seen and heard in the OT was the Angel of God who later became the Son of God ie Christ Jesus. Thus, although the Son is subordinate to the Father and the Father is and always will be THE Yahweh and THE God, but Jesus Christ is both God (Yahweh too) and the Son (Yahushua) of THE God (Yahweh the Father). He was always eternal and uncreated like God the Father.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains;... and the LORD [yehovah] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:5 and the Lord [kurios] my God [theos] shall come, and all the saints with him. (Brenton, LXX).
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord [kurios] Jesus Christ with all his saints.
“Just when it seems all hope is gone, “then the LORD himself appears as “divine warrior” and delivers his beleaguered people... But who is the “LORD”? When one compares this scene, including v.4, with Acts 1:9-12 and Revelation 19:11-16, it appears certain that “the LORD” here is ultimately the Messiah. The passage is indirectly messianic (see comments at 2:10)” (Kenneth L. Barker, Zechariah, EBC, Vol.7, p.690).
“The Lord will personally, physically, and actually reappear on this earth, just as He said He would, on the very spot where He left it at the end of His thirty-year pilgrimage. The early believers were told, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven" (Act 1:11). Zechariah's "day of the LORD" is that promised day of return. Here on the Mount of Olives, where Jesus had left Jerusalem, He would return again” (The Preacher’s Commentary).
“Thus the Lord God, in the Person of the long-rejected Messiah, will come... Passages like Matthew 25:31 and II Thessalonians 1:10 indicate that in His coming again to the earth the Lord Jesus Christ will be attended by a retinue made up of both angels and saints” (Charles L. Feinberg, God Remembers - A Study of Zechariah, p.197).
“... the title ho kurios [the Lord] is the special province of 1 Thessalonians...
“The first instance in the corpus where Paul uses language from the Septuagint and applies the kurios = YHWH directly to Christ appears in the eschatological goal of Paul’s prayer for the Thessalonians in 3:11-13... Here our focus is on the final phrase, where, after Paul has prayed that ho kurios (= Christ) will cause their love to increase and abound (in the present time), he offers as the goal of such love that “[the Lord] may strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus, with all his holy ones.” Here Paul’s intertextual appropriations of Zech 14:5 seems certain, since the language is too close to be merely accidental. The two text read:...
1 Thess 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus
with all his holy ones
Zech 14:5 And shall come the Lord my God
and all the holy ones with him
“The christological import of this sentence lies with the fact that the kurios of the Septuagint is “Yahweh my God,” who will himself come to the Mount of Olives and carry out his eschatological victory over the nations. In Paul’s theology, the future coming of the Lord is always seen as the return of the present reigning Lord, Jesus Christ. What Paul has done seems clear enough: the future coming of Yahweh is now to be understood a the future coming of “our Lord Jesus,” who alone is kurios in Paul’s new understanding, resulting from his own encounter with the risen Lord (see 1 Cor 9:1). One can scarcely miss the ease with which Paul now reads the kurios (= YHWH) of Zechariah as referring to Christ, the Lord. So much so that in 2 Thess 1:7-10, the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ has altogether assumed the role of judging God’s enemies as well...
“Once one recognizes Paul’s intertextual appropriation of the language of the Septuagint, whereby kurios = Yahweh is now kurios = Christ, one becomes aware of the many exclusively Yahweh-phrases from the Septuagint that are also applied to Christ...” (Gordon D. Fee, Pauline Christology, pp.43-45).
Thanks again Yes and No to HWA for those quotes! :-)
They really help and support what I feel is our mutual understanding on the matter.
And may I say I do value the time and effort you put into your contributions to the comments on this blog as I for one have found them very helpful and insightful many times! You must have a massive library of books you can refer to! ;-)
So thanks again!
Hi Stewart,
Thanks for the appreciative comment.
While, as a fellow lay-person, I do have a good number of ‘religious’ books, they have been accumulated over more than 30 years.
From reading them I like to share what I have learnt from their authors. Even if a person disagrees at least they may be more informed on the number of considerations to a subject.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth [unclean], neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie:
I would suggest that those who believe that God the Father was the ‘dynamic’ God-being that interacted with human beings in the OT, do not appreciate God’s holiness. It was because of His holiness that Jesus Christ comes into the picture.
I would also suggest, although Christ is God’s “help meet”, that those who believe that Christ was Melchizedek and that He will literally reign on the earth also do not appreciate Christ holiness.
Regards Yes and No
Yes and No to HWA, February 26, 2019 at 12:51 AM, said:
"...(Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld his glory...
Ex 40:34b and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
And just as the Word dwelt with the lost sheep of the House of Israel in the NT he also dwelt/ tabernacled with Israel in the OT)..."
To be specific, you wrote: "the Word dwelt with the lost sheep of the House of Israel in the NT"
How was that possible? If the Word was made flesh, then didn't "the Word" cease existence at that instant of time that the flesh of Jesus came into existence?
If not, then how do you go about proving the continual existence of "the Word" after it was made flesh?
And true, scripture indicates that Jesus Christ later had the title (among many titles) of "the Word of God," but that is a title.
FWIIW, in the OT only one Being, not 2 or 3, claims the following: to "live for ever!"
"For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deut 32:40
Jesus Christ did not "live for ever," and it appears, unless you prove otherwise, the Word does not "live for ever."
Thank you, in advance, for your reply.
John
Hi John,
I would like to know if you are using Deuteronomy 32:40 as a support Scripture for God the Father being the dynamic God-being who interacted with human-beings in the OT?
My thoughts:
Isa 63:7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD [the Father], and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
Isa 63:8 For he [the Father] said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he [the Father] was afflicted, and the angel of his presence [lit., face] [i.e., the Word] saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
God was “saviour” in the ‘absolute’ sense; the Angel of his face was “saviour” in the ‘dynamic’ sense.
Ge 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Ge 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
In v.16 Jacob’s clarifies which God-being he is addressing in his blessing.
Hos 12:3a He took his brother by the heel in the womb,
Hos 12:3b ... he had power with God:
Hos 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel,...
Hos 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts...
The angel of the Lord was Jacob’s God in the ‘dynamic’ sense.
John said..."To be specific, you wrote: 'the Word dwelt with the lost sheep of the House of Israel in the NT' How was that possible? If the Word was made flesh, then didn't 'the Word' cease existence at that instant of time that the flesh of Jesus came into existence? If not, then how do you go about proving the continual existence of 'the Word' after it was made flesh? And true, scripture indicates that Jesus Christ later had the title (among many titles) of 'the Word of God,' but that is a title. FWIIW, in the OT only one Being, not 2 or 3, claims the following: to 'live for ever!' 'For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.' Deut 32:40 Jesus Christ did not 'live for ever,' and it appears, unless you prove otherwise, the Word does not 'live for ever.'
March 1, 2019 at 10:11 AM
I can't speak for anybody else, but I took Yes and No to HWA's reference to Exo 40:34 and connecting it with John 1:14 to infer that just as God's glory filled the physical tabernacle during Israel's wandering in the desert in the OT God's glory filled the physical tabernacle of Jesus Christ in the NT (see eg John 2:21).
Also, I don't believe the Word effectively died at the moment of His divine conception in the womb of Mary. He existed with the Father from "the beginning" (John 1:2). Thus, He existed with the Father before there was anything else (verse 3; Eph 3:9). He was the divine agent or messenger of God the Father throughout the OT in His dealings with the patriarchs and the people of Israel (see eg Gen 18). He then divested Himself of His divinity and immortality (John 10:18; Phil 2:7) to be born a son of Abraham and David as John wrote: "And the Word was made flesh" (John 1:14). John doesn't say the Word died once He became flesh. He only experienced death as a flesh and blood mortal upon His crucifixion. While He was in the flesh He was God (1 Tim 3:16) and He asserted the power to give immortality to His followers (John 10:27-30). Thus, to me He must have had this power of immortality prior to His conception as a mortal just as He does now after His death, resurrection and ascension. Of course, this is just my present understanding of the matter.
Yes and No to HWA, March 1, 2019 at 4:17 PM, said...
Hi John,
I would like to know if you are using Deuteronomy 32:40 as a support Scripture for God the Father being the dynamic God-being who interacted with human-beings in the OT?
Hi,
I've been out of town due to the death of my mother-in-law in York, PA; however, I have returned. I am not on line too often, and only for a short time now, but my answer to your question above is: Yes!
That God is also the one with no beginning and no end. It appears that both the Word, and Jesus Christ, had a beginning.
"For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deut 32:40
The Word cannot say He/It lived forever. God, The God, somehow accomplished "the Word was made flesh."
Jesus Christ was dead for 3 days and 3 nights.
John
Stewart, March 1, 2019 at 5:28 PM, said...
[[...John said..."To be specific, you wrote: 'the Word dwelt with the lost sheep of the House of Israel in the NT' How was that possible? If the Word was made flesh, then didn't 'the Word' cease existence at that instant of time that the flesh of Jesus came into existence? If not, then how do you go about proving the continual existence of 'the Word' after it was made flesh? And true, scripture indicates that Jesus Christ later had the title (among many titles) of 'the Word of God,' but that is a title. FWIIW, in the OT only one Being, not 2 or 3, claims the following: to 'live for ever!' 'For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.' Deut 32:40Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) Jesus Christ did not 'live for ever,' and it appears, unless you prove otherwise, the Word does not 'live for ever.'
March 1, 2019 at 10:11 AM
I can't speak for anybody else......Also, I don't believe the Word effectively died at the moment of His divine conception in the womb of Mary. He existed with the Father from "the beginning" (John 1:2Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). Thus, He existed with the Father before there was anything else (verse 3; Eph 3:9Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). He was the divine agent or messenger of God the Father throughout the OT in His dealings with the patriarchs and the people of Israel (see eg Gen 18). He then divested Himself of His divinity and immortality (John 10:18Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Phil 2:7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) to be born a son of Abraham and David as John wrote: "And the Word was made flesh" (John 1:14Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). John doesn't say the Word died once He became flesh. He only experienced death as a flesh and blood mortal upon His crucifixion. While He was in the flesh He was God (1 Tim 3:16Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) and He asserted the power to give immortality to His followers (John 10:27-30Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). Thus, to me He must have had this power of immortality prior to His conception as a mortal just as He does now after His death, resurrection and ascension. Of course, this is just my present understanding of the matter...]]
Stewart, I didn't say anything about the Word's death. This is like one of those secret things of God, but that Word was somehow made flesh. God does not reveal how He accomplished that to eventually make Jesus His first begotten Son.
Again, that Word had a beginning, and so did Jesus, but God the Father has no beginning. It appears that prior to those "beginnings" that God existed alone!
Many verses say things like as follows:
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Those OT Isaiah verses, with those personal pronouns, do not say any such things as: "Oh, and there are 2 or 3 [[pick a number]] of us!"
John
Hi John,
Sorry to hear about your situation,
But if you have time could you answer my question:
"I would like to know if you are using Deuteronomy 32:40 as a support Scripture for God the Father being the dynamic God-being who interacted with human-beings in the OT?"
Dt 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Jn 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
Just because God is presented as speaking in the OT does not imply that he was the dynamic God-being who interacted with human-beings - God is too holy for that.
“... the most remarkable thing that happened in the faith of the earliest followers of Jesus is that they came to identify him - Jesus - with Yahweh, in calling him Lord, and in many other ways. So, yes it is certainly true, from a whole-Bible perspective, that the God Yahweh of the Old Testament ‘embodies’ (if that is not too human a word) the Son... But on the whole it is probably more appropriate in most cases that, when we read about Yahweh, we should have God the Father in mind” (Christopher J. H. Wright, Knowing God the Father through the Old Testament, p.17).
Jesus Christ, as the Angel of the Lord is also known as:
"the Voice of the Lord," the "Name of the Lord," the Glory of the Lord," and the Presence/Face of the Lord. In regard to the last:
Jn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Jesus Christ was not literally, that is around 72 hours in the grave - three days and three nights is a Hebrew idiom, used interchangeably with on the third day and after three days.
Yes and No to HWA said: "...But if you have time could you answer my question:
"I would like to know if you are using Deuteronomy 32:40Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) as a support Scripture for God the Father being the dynamic God-being who interacted with human-beings in the OT?"
And my answer to your question is: Yes, I am convicted that Deut 32:40 pertains only to God the Father, who has no beginning!
That God, the Father, is also the one with no beginning AND no end. Scripture indicates both the Word, and Jesus Christ, had a beginning.
"For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deut 32:40
The Word cannot say He/It lived forever. God, The God, somehow accomplished "the Word was made flesh."
Jesus Christ was dead for 3 days and 3 nights.
Again, neither the Word, nor Jesus Christ can claim in Deut to have said: "For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever."
The Word was not the Son of God. The Word was not Jesus Christ. If there were no Word, there would be no Jesus Christ. The Word had a beginning:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
That verse should be properly be rendered as: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE God [[ton Theon]], and the Word was God."
Someone had a beginning, and it wasn't The God.
For example, the Word was in the beginning (Strong's 746): "the first person or thing in a series"
But before that beginning there was The God, who had no beginning.
That makes sense to me, but 2 such Beings, or 3 such Beings? My mind goes tilt!
Some have taught that the Bible is a lot like a puzzle, and one can just put here a little and there a little with the pieces and make some sense out of it. But the end result is:
"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." Proverbs 28:13
Not very nice!
Some talk about the importance of border pieces of a puzzle. WCG taught God was consisting of 2 co-equal, eternal, beings and treated it like it was a border piece of a puzzle, but is it really? I don't think so.
God The Father has no beginning; the Word has a beginning; Jesus Christ has a beginning: thanks to what God The Father, The God, did with and after creating the Word at some "beginning," which God the Father does not have.
Deut 32:40, to me, is a border piece of a puzzle. One God, and not 2 Gods...or 3 Gods.
You said: "...Just because God is presented as speaking in the OT does not imply that he was the dynamic God-being who interacted with human-beings - God is too holy for that..."
Who says so? God can do whatever He wants with whoever He wants anytime He wants. Who will stop Him?
Some have thought that God can't be with human beings, but what about the future when the following verse is fulfilled?
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Those people are human beings: not spirit beings! Now, that is way off in the future yet, but it's a done deal!
Time will tell...
John
P.S. Yes and No to HWA also wrote: "...Jesus Christ was not literally, that is around 72 hours in the grave - three days and three nights is a Hebrew idiom, used interchangeably with on the third day and after three days..."
No matter how many hours you use, Jesus Christ, as a 100% human being (flesh), did something that a God does not do, and that is to die! Jesus Christ in Deut 32:40 is not the One who said: "For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." It could only be the One we know of as God the Father: The God!
John
Hi John,
Thanks for the reply.
Just a few questions to clarify:
Ge 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man [who turned out to be God, v.30] with him until the breaking of the day.
Ge 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Did Jacob wrestle with God the Father?
1Sa 4:4 So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from thence the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth between the cherubims:
Did God the Father have a dwelling presence in the holy of holies of Moses’ Tabernacle?
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Cp. also
God: Rev 21:6a And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Strong’s 746] and the end.
Christ: Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Strong’s 746] and the end, the first and the last.
How are God and Christ the firsts and lasts?
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Who is the “he” of 11:15?
You quote Rev 21:3-4; and say that “these people are human beings”. What does “no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain” mean for human beings at this time?
Cp. also in this regard
Rev 7:17b and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev 21:4a And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
God also wipes away the tears of the great multitude - spirit beings? - in the heavenly holy of holies.
Thank you, in advance, for your replies.
Yes and No to HWA,
Before I consider your additional questions in your previous post of March 8, 2019 at 1:44 AM, would you first clarify your thought regarding Deut 32:40 for me?
Twice, you asked me the following question: "I would like to know if you are using Deuteronomy 32:40Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) as a support Scripture for God the Father being the dynamic God-being who interacted with human-beings in the OT?"
And I responded with the following:
And my answer to your question is: Yes, I am convicted that Deut 32:40 pertains only to God the Father, who has no beginning! And then, I provided additional Bible back-up for why my answer was Yes.
Please clarify for me your answer to the following question:
Who, in your opinion, is quoted as speaking in Deut 32:40 as saying "For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever", and what verses do you use to back up your belief?
Then, we can put aside that one question you asked me, and go on to additional questions.
Thanks, in advance, for your clarification regarding the one question about Dt 32:40.
And have a delightful Sabbath!
John
Dt 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
In the ‘absolute’ sense this refers to the Father.
Isa 63:8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them:
In the ‘absolute’ sense God was the Savior of his people, but in the dynamic sense the “angel of his presence” was his people. That is God did not ‘dynamically’ interact with His people; the person we now know as Jesus Christ did so for God.
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore,
While I am happy to limit 32:40 to God, I will also go out on a limb, and say, that even though Christ died it can be applied to Christ - heretical perhaps to modern western thinking.
Dt 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
While God is the Rock in 32:4, Paul can link it to Christ.
Dt 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God;
1Co 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
“... the “Lord” whom Israel was provoking to jealousy is, in the Corinthians’ case, to be understood as the risen Lord Jesus Christ” (Gordon D. Fee, Pauline Christology, p.133).
Israel and the Corinthians provoked Christ; and provoking Christ provokes God.
Isa 43:10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 44:6 and beside me there is no God.
Jn 1:1 and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Dt 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
“[Paul] has kept the “one” intact, but has divided the Shema into two parts, with theos (God) now referring to the Father, and kurios (Lord) referring to Jesus Christ... [Paul] is reasserting for the Corinthians that ... there is indeed only one God... but at the same time, he insists that the identity of the one God also includes the one Lord...” (Gordon D. Fee, Pauline Christology, pp.90-91).
Lk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
“Whatever its ultimate meaning, the question does not constitute a denial that he himself is good” (Walter L. Liefield, Luke, EBC, Vol.8, p.1003).
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
I do not take Scriptures such as Isa 43:10; 44:6 as for all time blanket teachings. It is more contextual - God dealing with His people.
Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us [God and the Word] make man in our image, after our likeness:
Ge 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Typology suggests that God took of himself and created the Word. So that though Christ had a beginning there is a sense He exited forever before this, in the sense of Levi paying tithes in Abraham. And that God is reproducing Himself.
Yes and No to HWA, March 9, 2019 at 4:16 PM, said...Dt 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
In the ‘absolute’ sense this refers to the Father..."
Thanks for your response; we have closure on Dt 32:40!
Now, I will go back and consider your previous post with your additional comments, but not at this moment. Perhaps tomorrow.
John
YES AND NO TO HWA, MARCH 8, 2019 AT 1:44 AM, SAID...HI JOHN,
THANKS FOR THE REPLY.
JUST A FEW QUESTIONS TO CLARIFY:
GE 32:24 AND JACOB WAS LEFT ALONE; AND THERE WRESTLED A MAN [WHO TURNED OUT TO BE GOD, V.30] WITH HIM UNTIL THE BREAKING OF THE DAY.
GE 32:30 AND JACOB CALLED THE NAME OF THE PLACE PENIEL: FOR I HAVE SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE, AND MY LIFE IS PRESERVED.
DID JACOB WRESTLE WITH GOD THE FATHER?..."
I WILL FURTHER REPLY USING [[DOUBLE BRACKETS]].
[[DID JACOB WRESTLE WITH GOD THE FATHER? NO!]]
1SA 4:4 SO THE PEOPLE SENT TO SHILOH, THAT THEY MIGHT BRING FROM THENCE THE ARK OF THE COVENANT OF THE LORD OF HOSTS, WHICH DWELLETH BETWEEN THE CHERUBIMS:
DID GOD THE FATHER HAVE A DWELLING PRESENCE IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES OF MOSES’ TABERNACLE?
[[Yes, that refers to God the Father, The God; however, it is symbolic. It is picturing God's Throne.]]
ISAIAH 44:6 THUS SAITH THE LORD THE KING OF ISRAEL, AND HIS REDEEMER THE LORD OF HOSTS; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.
REV 2:8 AND UNTO THE ANGEL OF THE CHURCH IN SMYRNA WRITE; THESE THINGS SAITH THE FIRST AND THE LAST, WHICH WAS DEAD, AND IS ALIVE;
CP. ALSO
GOD: REV 21:6A AND HE SAID UNTO ME, IT IS DONE. I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING [STRONG’S 746] AND THE END.
CHRIST: REV 22:13 I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING [STRONG’S 746] AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST.
HOW ARE GOD AND CHRIST THE FIRSTS AND LASTS?
[[Among other things, The God (John 1:1), the Father, is greater than Jesus Christ.
The Father is the One: "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." 1 Tim 6:16
The God is the Highest, the Greatest, unique, and there is no other exactly like Him. In that sense, He is the first, the last, and there will be no other.
The Word was created, taught, educated, trained...created...was MADE FLESH: Jesus Christ, who died, was resurrected, visited The God, His/our Father, returned to earth (second coming) as a High Priest.......unique! There will never be another High Priest exactly like Jesus Christ; this High Priest lives now forever. He is first, alpha, last, omega, and there will not be another exactly like Him in the Order of Melchizedek, etc.
Bottom line: The God only needed one such High Priest, but first He had to create the Word.]]
REV 11:15 AND THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; AND THERE WERE GREAT VOICES IN HEAVEN, SAYING, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, AND OF HIS CHRIST; AND HE SHALL REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER.
WHO IS THE “HE” OF 11:15?
[[The God, our Father, reigns for ever and ever. Christ had a beginning, and it was The God who gave Him eternal life, and so Christ now also reigns for ever and ever.]]
YOU QUOTE REV 21:3-4 ; AND SAY THAT “THESE PEOPLE ARE HUMAN BEINGS”. WHAT DOES “NO MORE DEATH, NEITHER SORROW, NOR CRYING, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE ANY MORE PAIN” MEAN FOR HUMAN BEINGS AT THIS TIME?
[[Exactly what it says!]]
CP. ALSO IN THIS REGARD [[Excuse my ignorance, but what does that CP mean?]]
REV 7:17B AND GOD SHALL WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS FROM THEIR EYES.
REV 21:4A AND GOD SHALL WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS FROM THEIR EYES;
GOD ALSO WIPES AWAY THE TEARS OF THE GREAT MULTITUDE - SPIRIT BEINGS? [[No, on earth in the Eighth Day after the second resurrection occurs.]] - IN THE HEAVENLY HOLY OF HOLIES. [[No, on earth, in the Eighth Day after the second resurrection occurs!]]
THANK YOU, IN ADVANCE, FOR YOUR REPLIES
[[John]]
Thanks John for the reply.
Cp. = compare.
Regards Y&N
An interesting analogy. It would seem to me that as a population creates more of itself its ability to reproduce would decline significantly when the food (tithing members) runs low.
You could also say that the splits are increasing but the CoGs are in something called a logarithmic decline.
The CoGs are already completely off our culture's radar; eventually they will be nothing but a squeak lost in the noise of a world going happily along without them.
This site always looks for problems in the churches of God. Do you guys delight in division? What is the point of you actions other than to set your little minds at ease that you don’t want to follow truth and live life by your own rules
anonymous
Mr. Mickelson left Pacific Church of God to promote his own ideas.
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