Saturday, February 13, 2021

The Complete Hypocrisy Behind the UCG and COGWA Split



Dear Banned:

In my boredom, I was looking around the internet tonight looking for COG-related stuff and stumbled upon this. This was written by Mike Caputo, a United Church of God minister in Canada. He supposedly wrote this around the time that COGWA was ripping the UCG apart and taking hundreds of ministers and thousands of members with them. The complete utter hypocrisy of this man is appalling.
1. I absolutely refuse to break my Father’s heart, one more time.
We are God’s family. Our loving Father detests seeing divisions in His family. God demands that problems within His family be solved, whatever it takes and whatever amount of time it might take. His heart has been broken many times since Lucifer created havoc in God's family and has continued to be broken unto our days.
The Bible tells us that God hates divorce. Why? Because of the turmoil that ensues. Because of the damage that ensues, especially to the children. How much more so within God's own family; how much more so with God’s children.
Going along with people who cause divisions without sufficient and justifiable reasons means causing turmoil and anguish for the many. It means tormenting and damaging the minds of God’s children, and, consequently. it means adding pain to our Father's mind. I will have no part of that.
I will not break my Father’s heart, one more time.
I will not leave United!
Apparently, it was ok because he and all the ministry in UCG and COGWA decided to create more wounds as they fractured the church once more.
2. I WILL NOT BE GUILTY OF ADDING MORE WOUNDS AND MORE TEARS TO CHRIST’S BODY. 
There is a reason why the Church is called, "The Body of Christ." It is something that is precious and dear to Him. It is His spiritual body. 
Too many people through the ages have carelessly dared to tear at and wound that precious body. Too many people have cut it asunder and have done so with, at times, the most absurd and deplorable excuses. 
I will not be guilty of such a terrible mistake.
Before Christ died, He made it clear in His prayer found in John 17 that unity in His body was of the utmost importance to Him. Please pay careful attention to His intense and heartfelt words which He prayed with great intensity before He was killed.
In 1 Samuel 15 Saul is told by Samuel to “attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them.”
9 But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were unwilling to utterly destroy them. 
 
10 Now the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying, 11 “I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the LORD all night. 13 Then Samuel went to Saul, and Saul said to him, “Blessed are you of the LORD! I have performed the commandment of the LORD.”

14 But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?” 

15 And Saul said, “They have brought them from the Amalekites; for the people spared the best of the sheep and the oxen, to sacrifice to the LORD your God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.”

16 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Be quiet! And I will tell you what the LORD said to me last night.” 
 
And he said to him, “Speak on.”

17 So Samuel said, “When you were little in your own eyes, were you not head of the tribes of Israel? And did not the LORD anoint you king over Israel? 18 Now the LORD sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’ 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the LORD? Why did you swoop down on the spoil, and do evil in the sight of the LORD?”
 
20 And Saul said to Samuel, “But I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and gone on the mission on which the LORD sent me, and brought back Agag king of Amalek; I have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 But the people took of the plunder, sheep and oxen, the best of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice to the LORD your God in Gilgal.”

“Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
He also has rejected you from being king.”

1 Corinthians 1:10" Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

This is what Paul says, unequivocally, about the kind of attitude we are to have toward authorities:

Romans 13: 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

This is how much Jesus Christ longed, and still longs, for unity in His body. 
 
I will value and honor Christ’s wish and prayer and will I not be guilty of adding another tear and another wound to my Savior’s Body. 
 
I will not leave United! 

Apparently, it was ok to break his Father's heart the first time around when he apostatized along with the rest of the men who planned the UCG split off from the Worldwide Church of God. Also, preaching incorrect doctrine, to begin with, was apparently also ok too.

Where was the concern of Kubik, Webber, and others when they schemed while on WCG payroll to form United?

3. I WILL NOT LEAVE UNITED BECAUSE I WANT TO FOLLOW THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL’S EXAMPLE, NOT LUCIFER’S.

From the start, Michael proved to be totally faithful and committed to God. No matter what logical-sounding and righteous-sounding reasons Lucifer presented, Michael understood the critical dimension of respect for Divine authority and humbly submitted to it.

We know that Lucifer deceived 1/3 of the angels and that they finally even dared to rebel against the Almighty. Michael stood firm and fought for God. The book of Jude gives us a hint of the kind of extraordinary character this Archangel had all along.

Jude 1: 8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

This scripture is of such profound implication that it bears a close analysis.

Michael, superior to Satan, dared not bring against him a railing accusation.

Why? Because Satan, in spite of his evil character, has been allowed by God to retain a position of authority as King of this world and as ruler over the rebellious angels and, though Satan according to Scriptures is evil, and a deceiver, and a false accuser, and a sower of discord, and a sower of turmoil and according to Christ, a liar and a murderer, Michael submitted to God’s wishes and left the judgment to God. “The Lord rebuke you!” He said. May God judge you, Satan, not I.

I refuse to stand in judgment of God’s appointed leaders. It is God’s duty to judge them, not I.

The people Jude condemns, though infinitely less important than Michael, did dare, instead, to “reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries”.

I dare not reject authority and speak evil of authority figures or follow people who do.

I will follow Michael's example, not Lucifer's.

I will stay in United!

He rejected the authority of the Worldwide Church of God, but. that was ok. There is always an excuse for COG ministers. 



4. I REFUSE TO LEAVE UNITED BECAUSE I REFUSE TO FOLLOW KORAH’S EXAMPLE.

You know the story; Korah and a few others within the congregation of Israel rebelled against Moses, God’s chosen leader.

Korah did not want any authority over himself. Korah led a rebellion against God’s anointed. He criticized the authority appointed by God. His words sounded noble and sanctimonious: More power to the people; honor and respect for all; equality in the congregation.

“You take too much upon yourselves, for all the congregation is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them. Why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?” (Numbers 16:3)

If you read the story carefully you will find that in the end Korah had succeeded in causing so much anger, so much resentment and so much turmoil within the congregation that all of Israel finally stood up against Moses. This is the power of a Satan-inspired rebel. God, though, saw; God judged and intervened dramatically to purge Israel of the rebels. God will do the same with other rebels who dare do the same, if their motives are the same as Korah's.

JUDE 1: 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Korah, his close assistants, and many others were destroyed.

This was the end result of Korah’s rebellion against God’s anointed and his "disregard" for peace and unity. Rebelling against God's appointed authorities can lead not only to temporary destruction but to eternal destruction, if not repented of.

I will follow Moses’ example and I refuse to follow Korah's example!

I am staying in United!

5. I WILL NOT LEAVE UNITED BECAUSE I WANT TO FOLLOW DAVID’S EXAMPLE, NOT KING SAUL’S EXAMPLE.

Initially, King Saul’s example was one of humility, but his attitude took a serious turn for the worse and he became rebellious and justified his attitude with absurd rationalizations.

What did he do, instead?
 
What was God’s response?

I Samuel 15

Noble and sanctimonious-sounding, indeed. but what did God think?

22 So Samuel said: 
 
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
    as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
    and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
 
For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
    and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, 
he has rejected you as king.” 

And now one of the most important scriptures in the Bible…

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,

Would the merciful God have forgiven Saul, if he had deeply repented? Without any doubt.

What did he do instead? He rationalized his actions with "sanctimonious" excuses.

This is the spirit I believe I see in some of the main culprits of the present division. I see a disregard for God’s authority accompanied by rationalizations (Logical sounding but empty excuses).

A man who held a very high position within the foreign work of UCG was told not long ago to appear before the COE to clarify some issues and not go on a planned trip to visit congregations in foreign lands. He refused to do so because, and I quote his words, “It would have been a waste of money.” (How noble sounding…). When consequenced for his defiant attitude he did not acknowledge his serious error and, rather than repent, this is what he said:

"Since Roy stated that it was a Council 'request' that I cancel the trip and appear before them the next week I decided that I would continue with my plans. The Council did not order me to appear before them—they only requested it.” (Emphasis Mine).

Sound familiar? This is Saul’s attitude all the way.

Let me now quote the concluding remarks of this man’s email to our President:

“Denny, I hope that a way can be found to move back from this confrontation. I am willing to work with you on this. I believe that the starting point is for you to reinstate me as Regional Director. The Spanish ministry want this—in fact they insist on it. I do not see how we can prevent the inevitable (which no one wants!) unless I am reinstated.” (Emphasis mine).

Translation: You COE either submit to our will or we will leave.

Not only a rebellious spirit of Saul coupled with rationalizations, but demands and veiled threats.

Thank God our leadership stood its ground. Woe unto any ruling body of any organization that caves in to a spirit of rebellion on the part of its subordinates.

On the other hand, there is David. He submitted to one of the most evil, cruel, unjust, unfair, calloused and demonic men that ever lived.

According to UCG, Joe Tkach was the most evil, cruel, unjust, unfair, calloused, and demonic man they had ever seen. So it was ok for them to cause divisions and start a new group. 

The present disaffected group talks about abuse of authority and the right to cause a traumatic division because of it. What did David do, under "undeniable" abuse of authority?

UCG claimed Tkach abused authority and their right to break away.

David had been ordained by God to be the next King. He could have had lots of reasons to say, “This man is unjust with God’s people; he abuses God’s people; he is evil; he has left God; he is demon possessed; he deserves to die and it is my duty to God’s people to get rid him.”

He, instead, refused to dishonor God by rebelling against His anointed.

He waited on God to deal with Saul, as He saw fit.

Unlike Saul, He passed the great test.

Now let me read to you the words of Fred Kellers, a UCG minister who clearly has David’s heart. This is what he had to say:

“I've not always agreed with the council but I have always agreed that we have chosen to ask Jesus to guide us as a group, either through the General Conference of Elders for some items and through the Council of Elders for other things. If I don't agree with the council, I have ethical ways to show my disagreement. I can also fast and trust Jesus Christ to be the head of his body. What I don't have the option of doing is causing division and upset. My job is to help lead His sheep beside the still waters.”

This is David’s heart. This is the heart I want to emulate. I want to emulate the one who dares not rebel against God’s appointed authority, not the one who openly rebelled and then dared to rationalize his actions with absurd rationalizations. 

That has to be the ultimate hypocrisy of UCG leadership! 

This is one more reason why I will not leave United!

6. I WILL NOT LEAVE UNITED BECAUSE THE WORDS OF THE APOSTLE PAUL ARE MORE IMPORTANT TO ME THAN THE WORDS OF OTHER SELF-APPOINTED SAVIORS OF THE CHURCH.


Paul reflected the wishes of Christ. Paul demanded that Christians and Christian leaders reflect the wishes of Christ.

Why?

1 Corinthians 12:12 "For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ."

Strive to be perfectly joined together, because we are the body of Christ.

What is the real cause of most divisions, according to Paul? Is it noble- sounding reasons? Is it a “seeming” love of justice and righteousness?

1 Corinthians 3:3 "For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?"

Carnality, is the major reason for strife and divisions, not spirituality.

So was the carnal nature evident in Kubik, Webber, and others ok when they caused a division against WCG? 

What should be our response to people that cause divisions within Christ's Body?

Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

I know who is presently causing divisions in the Body and I, in obeying Paul's injunction, have chosen to avoid them. I want to heed Paul's words and I refuse to follow anyone who causes strife, offenses and divisions. 

But it was ok to follow Kubik when he caused division and left WCG? You foolish hypocrite! 

I will not leave United!

7. I REFUSE TO LEAVE UNITED BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN THE SACREDNESS OF THE PRINCIPLE THAT CHRISTIANS OUGHT TO SUBMIT TO AUTHORITY, ESPECIALLY IN THE CHURCH, FOR AS LONG AS THE LEADERS DO NOT TAMPER WITH GOD’S LAWS.

If this is true of secular authorities, how much more so of authorities within the Church. How much more so of people who have been entrusted by God to be His representatives, to love and serve and protect His people and to bring His message to the world.

Yes, it's true; if the leadership blatantly rejects God's laws and refuses to repent then we have the right to stand up for what is holy and right. Unfortunately, some people are now using this rallying cry to say that the church is trying to abolish the Sabbath, and thus they are free to depart and create another group.

That is a total absurdity.

The laws of God at times need to be applied with a spirit of mercy. The Sabbath has gray areas. The Church will at times be called upon to render judgments with a spirit of mercy. Other decisions will also be rendered by the Church which might perturb extreme conservatives or extreme liberals. Sometimes we will move somewhat to the right or somewhat to the left. Christ in time has and will bring about adjustments to bring us closer to a balance.

At times I will agree with the decisions rendered by the COE, at times I might not agree. When I agree, other ministers might disagree. When I disagree, other ministers might agree. No matter where I stand, I will respect the decisions of our church authorities, when it come to the applications of some principles.

Why? Because, as we have seen, that is of utmost importance to God. Submitting to authorities is critical, because God told us to do so, and because it tells God where we stand toward "Him."

Submitting to imperfect authorities, tells God that we honor His wishes and are willing to submit to His authority.

Submitting to WCG leadership was wrong though?  

If United were to abolish any one of God's commandments, we will again stay firm and faithful to God. We would not rebel by doing so. The Church would rebel. It would leave God, we would not.

This is the same flimsy excuse they have used for 2 decades to justify their rebellion. They never left the church, it left them. Fools!

But there is no such reality going on right now, because such a move requires a 3/4 majority approval on the part of all the ministry and this is not even remotely close to happening.

As the COE tries to apply biblical principles in a merciful way, I will remain respectful of their decisions. I don’t have to agree, but I do have to remain respectful.

That’s what Michael understood; that’s what the great men of the Bible understood and they are the ones I want to emulate.

This is one more reason why I will not leave United.

8. I REFUSE TO LEAVE UNITED BECAUSE I DO NOT TRUST THE MOTIVES OF THOSE WHO CAUSE DIVISIONS.

This is too funny! You trusted the motives of Kubik and others when they caused division and stole thousands of members, income, and property from WCG. That was ok though. 

When you listen to those who cause divisions, they invariably sound especially righteous and just. Yet, when I see the spirit of division, I always question their ultimate motives. Why? Because the Bible tells me to.

This is what Paul told the elders in Ephesus, before his departure from that city.

Acts 20:28-30 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

I respect people who have disagreements with the church and leave in peace. They cause no turmoil; they do not try to convince others of their ways. They leave and do not cause divisions, understanding the seriousness of the matter.

Unfortunately, in way too many cases, leaders who have left took a following with them. This fact should make all ponder why they are really leaving. Paul gives us one central reason: “...to draw away the disciples after themselves.”

HEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Paul then gives us one more critical detail in his critique of the Judaizers who continually caused turmoil and divisions in the church when Christianity started.

They appeared to have very noble motives. They wanted strict obedience to the Law. They wanted uncompromising righteousness. But that was the sanctimonious surface. What was under the surface that a lot of members could not see? But was the real motive?

Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. (Their tithes).

There is more, of course. Sometimes the major cause is anger because of offenses that may have happened and were not forgiven; sometimes it's envy; envy for positions they don’t have or that they had and "no longer have."

I do not trust the leaders of the present disaffected group. Of course, some may be less guilty than others. Yet, when I see people who create divisions, I look beneath the veneer of sanctimonious excuses to find what Paul told me to look for: lust for power and control, taking people's tithes, resentment and envy.

I do not trust the motives of the leaders of the disaffected group.

I will not leave United!

9. I WILL NOT LEAVE UNITED BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT CHRIST IS IN CHARGE OF UNITED.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Jesus Christ is the mind that runs His body. He is fully aware of every member and organ in that body. He knows which is strong, which is weak; which is sickly and which is vibrant. He is strong enough to deal with each and every one of the members of His body. I will trust that He will do that, if necessary, in due time, in United.

Are there weak members in the COE? If so, He knows it. Is there injustice at the very top? If so, He knows it. If so, can Christ deal with them as He deals with me to bring them into a state of sobriety and repentance? Absolutely!

Jesus Christ does not need me to set the leadership of the church straight, "if" they go astray. I will trust in Him and will wait on Him. I will not trust people who tell me to trust "their" judgment and "their" perspective on facts and follow them.

I will not follow such people.

I will remain in United!

10. I WILL NOT LEAVE UNITED BECAUSE I DO NOT FOLLOW PEOPLE WHO EXHIBIT THE WORKS OF THE FLESH.

How, you may say? Five of the works of the flesh listed in Galatians 5 deal with attitudes and behaviors that cause divisions: Variance, Emulation, Strife, Seditions, Heresies are all manifestations of the same spirit which leads to the same painful and destructive results: confusion, strive and schisms. Furthermore, divisions may also find its roots in two other “insidious” works of the flesh, described before, that are hard to see and that often are often also at work, “envy” and “hatred” (or its milder manifestation, “resentment”).

No matter how they slice it, no matter how noble their reasons might appear, the results of their actions have been turmoil and divisions.

That is enough for me. "You shall know them by their fruits," said Jesus Christ. I have looked at the fruits and the fruits of turmoil and division are not from God.

I will not follow people who exhibit attitudes and actions that bring about turmoil and division in Christ’s body.

I am staying in United!

11. I will not leave United because I do not follow people that do not exhibit the fruits of the spirit.

This entire thread just gets weirder and weirder! 

Nice sermons will not suffice; pleasant personalities will not do; a warm smile and a firm hand shake is not enough. I looked for the fruits of Agape love and, instead, I found accusations, exaggerations and demands.

I especially, and most of all, looked for Agape love for God’s people and instead I found the willingness to traumatize again a traumatized people; the willingness to wound again a wounded people; to cause anguish again for people who have already tasted more than enough anguish.

I did not see in them the Agape love that longs to give peace to them who are in dire need of peace.

They say to us, “Where is the love in the leadership of United?”, for dealing with rebellious attitudes with firmness. They sound as though they have the corner on love, when in reality they show lack of love towards God’s people by being willing to traumatize God's precious flock, once again, with one more unnecessary split.

I ask of them, “Where is your love?”. Have you considered the casualties that you will leave behind? Have you considered how many Christians will say, "Enough is enough; I want nothing to do with Christianity ever again!" Have you considered the ones who will fall into such confusion and depression again that their daily lives will be severely affected? Have you considered the ones who will be so hurt, so disappointed and upset that they will leave God altogether and who might even become unbelievers?

I would also ask them, “Have you considered the number of families that will fall part because of your decision? The number of friendships that will end? The number of couples that will divorce? The number of parents and children and brothers and sisters that will end up in conflict?”, as we have seen already in the past.

You seem to glow with warmth and kindness, but where is your love?

The turmoil and confusion you have created is not love and I want nothing to do with you!

I am staying in United!

12. I WILL NOT LEAVE UNITED BECAUSE OUR SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND BALANCES WORKS, WITH PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL.

What????


Is there a probability that the COE can weaken spiritually? Yes. That was the assumption on which our system of government was built. There is a possibility that the leaders could deviate and weaken spiritually.

The solution? Close scrutiny on the part of the GCE and re-election of the members of the COE every three years.

Every year “three” COE members are up for re-election. Every twenty four months we can theoretically have a new majority on the Board (9 out of 12).

This is the peaceful, decent, orderly, civilized, godly way of dealing with a COE that may go astray.

There is no need for revolutions.

There is no need for new groups.

There is no need for turmoil and divisions.

There is no need for people to quit the COE.

There is no need for ministers to resign.

There is no need for members to move to another group.

But there is a need for people of good will, who are patient, who are filled with trust in Christ the Head of the Church, and who are willing to let the system "self-correct," as it was meant to do from the start.

Some of the ministers who have left helped create the system, but failed to wait to let it work.

Why? Did they forget how the system works? Why the impatience?

I will not follow people who are impatient and who do not trust in Christ and who don’t have the nobility to allow a system that works, to work.

I will stay in United!

CONCLUSION

Let me now conclude by repeating what I have already stated, lest there be any doubt as to where I stand.

I will not leave United to follow the leaders of the splinter group because,

1. I refuse to break my Father’s heart one more time.

2. I dare not put another cut or tear into my Savior's body.

3. I will strive to follow Michael’s example, not Lucifer’s.

4. I will strive to follow Moses’ example, not Korah’s.

5. I will strive to follow David’s example not Saul’s.

6. I will strive to follow Paul’s words, not the words of self-appointed saviors of the Church.

7. I will submit to Church authority, though imperfect, because God wants me to.

8. I do not trust the motives of anyone who causes divisions.

9. I believe that Christ loves United, that He is in charge of United and that He rules among United and that He will set things straight, if and when the necessity arises.

10. I will not follow people who exhibit the works of the flesh, especially as pertaining divisions.

11. I will not follow people who are more concerned about implementing their own agenda than loving and protecting God’s people.

12. I will not leave United because I believe that our system of checks and balances works, when people of good will wait for it to work and when they are willing to help it to work. In my view, the people who have left have not shown sufficient willingness to do either.

These are my major reasons for staying in United. I hope and pray that you share most, or all, of these reasons and that, in fact, you may actually have many more than mine.

It is an honor to be a minister in the United Church of God; it is an honor to serve with special ministers who with me will stay solid and faithful; it is an honor to serve the members who have chosen to remain faithful in our Church and, most of all, it is an honor to submit to God and Jesus Christ and their will that I do not contribute to turmoil and division but, rather, to peace and to unity.

Mike Caputo (Non-salaried, Canadian UCG Elder)

30 comments:

Anonymous said...

This is typical UCG twaddle. I don't think there is a church filled with more hypocrites than UCG.

Anonymous said...

There's an easy fix for this that both sides would benefit from:
- Relax, sit down, and listen to The Lockner Tapes

Anonymous said...

It’s about time that all the members in all the COG’s say “I WILL LEAVE YOUR ORGANIZATION BECAUSE I HAD ENOUGH OF ALL THE ABUSE, DECEIT AND HYPOCRISY IN THIS CULT!”

GrittyMan said...

And, of course, all those who "faithfully" and "loyally" stayed with WCG during the splits of the 1990s and 2000s were staying with a group whose Korah-like founder had rebelled against the COG 7th Day and caused his own division within the "body of Christ."

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:37
Correct comments. Truth. Amen.

Anonymous said...

Knowing what I do about the people in charge of these splits, this is disgusting!

Anonymous said...

No side came out of the UCG COGWA war-split well. Both sides wallow in self righteousness and hypocrisy. Both sides are blind to the fact they destroyed the last foundations of trust in the ministry for many of the membership. Brothers in Christ don't stab each other in the back.
The fact that brethren from both sides totally ignore the war zones and fellowship and intermingle across both churches is testimony to that.

Anonymous said...

Is there a link to The Lockner Tapes?

Anonymous said...

That is the unfortunate reality...

Anonymous said...

Reading through this long post, the thought occurred to me, what if God left the various Churches of God (as he took his glory away from the OT temple) What if He turned his back. Had enough. None care, it's all vain men's thoughts and writings.

Anonymous said...

Caputo's self-righteous list is disgusting. I know the guy and he is no pillar of virtue in the church. Is there any one with integrity still left in UCG or COGWA?

Anonymous said...

There is so much wrong with the post.
David did not submit to a evil Saul. Rather he protected his life by fleeing. Which is the equivalent of starting a new group.
The 'God will straighten things out, so do nothing' is not the way the world works. God has given humans a God plain mind, self responsibility. and expects people to use them. Burying ones pounds in the ground is condemned.
The author is careful to put no limits on the power of the ministers in a church culture that treats its members like children.
The post exalts unity above it's proper value in the hierarchy of moral values. Also "unity" is a communist theme, and a code word for blind conformity. Forget about 'obey God than man.' So called "unity" is always used as a club in ACOG land to rob members of their natural rights.
The post endlessly attacks negative emotions. This again is ACOG culture. So forget "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," since not causing negative emotions in others trumps everything. As the saying goes, "my rights don't end where others emotions begin." After all, they tried to throw Christ off a cliff.

The railing against emotions is a war against cause and effect. The criminally minded fantasize a world where all their lawless behavior has no negative consequences for them. And it's others pesty emotions that gets in the way of this Nivara for crooks. Darn those emotions.

Unknown said...

Terrific point. I've seen this since the splits.
Can someone give the percentages? In the 1990s what percentage left WCG?

Anonymous said...

They say anyone who listens to The Lochner Tapes ups and leaves the church, but very hard to get a copy!

Anonymous said...

^^ 4:25PM ^^ Comments are pure gold. These genius comments have unravelled the core of what goes on in UCG.

Anonymous said...

9.43 PM
About 50% left the WCG. Dave Pack in his original unembellished auto biography wrote that used to do a survey when he was assigned to a new church. He found that about half the members did none, or next to no prayer and bible study. He wrote that the church split along these lines. This is one case where I believe he got something right.

Anonymous said...


The disUnited Church of Godlessness, an International Abomination (UCG, aIA)

Some people end up out of the UCG because they have no choice. The UCG brings in all sorts of godless perverts and stalkers and kicks out their victims. Then the UCG tells the victims that “the UCG meets in peace.”

The UCG is trying to build an income stream for the big shots. The UCG leaders think that building the UCG on godlessness is the humanly “wise” thing to do, but it does not seem to be working very well.

The UCG is endless nice-sounding talk accompanied by endless godlessness.

Unknown said...

Anonymous 9.43 PM - thanks. Please confirm which half left or stayed.
In past decades when ministers taught about the great falling away in the end, the percentage 30% leaving was quoted. I recall that number pertaining to the first wave. The numbers evolve. What is the ratio now of Grace vs breakaways?
Each side will say the other fell away and are Laodiceans.

But I allow that each case is not black and white. Some ministers were fired so what could they do? I look for a fine line.

Anonymous said...

12.15 PM
The anecdotal evidence is that the original Grace has melted away. People have posted here that some Grace congregations went from a respectable number to a handful. All we know is that there are about 35,000 maximum in the breakaways, with Grace being secretive about their original WWCG member numbers.

Anonymous said...

Any ideas on where to start?

Anonymous said...

Why attack the IA part. I think your a fake tbh.

Earl said...

The COGs have always viewed "negative" emotions as a sign of lack of the Holy Spirit, particularly anger. Now, I've seen ministers previous to, during, and subsequent to the UCG/COGWA split downgrade one another in anger, but of course it is justified in their minds, I suppose because they are peers at the same level of their disgusting hierarchy. For a mere member to criticize a minister or ministerial practice is viewed as proof of an unconverted heart...well, until the lines were drawn in the UCG/Cogwa split, then if you said something critical of a minister on the opposing side you were viewed as particularly discerning. It is difficult to use the word "discern" anymore as COGWA used it at every opportunity and then chose to have a magazine titled "Discern". In COGWA the word has a loaded history going back to the ucg/cogwa split, yet it has an ironic history all the way to Armstrong's fledgling church as true discernment would have revealed the falseness of Armstrongism.

Anonymous said...

Weird way of thinking Earl.

Earl said...

What is weird about it? I'm simply stating what I observed among the ministers during the UCG/COGWA split. I see a line above that might indicate that I thought this way too, but it was sarcastic. A clarified post is below:

The COGs have always viewed "negative" emotions as a sign of lack of the Holy Spirit, particularly anger. I've seen ministers previous to, during, and subsequent to the UCG/COGWA split downgrade one another in anger, but of course it is justified in their minds as in their hierarchy criticism horizontally was acceptable at times. However, if a mere member criticized a minister or ministerial practice it was viewed as proof of an unconverted heart...well, until the lines were drawn in the UCG/Cogwa split, then if you said something critical of a minister on the opposing side you were viewed as particularly discerning.
It is difficult to use the word "discern" anymore as COGWA used it at every opportunity and then chose to have a magazine titled "Discern". In COGWA the word has a loaded history going back to the ucg/cogwa split, yet it has an ironic history all the way to Armstrong's fledgling church as true discernment would have revealed the falseness of Armstrongism.

An overstatement on my hesitation to use the word 'discern", but beyond that this account is fully accurate among the ministers I dealt with during the latest split.

Anonymous said...

Readers on here are supposed to believe Earl was able to observe both UCG and COGWA ministry being negative and angry over each other. I do not believe Earl as it doesn't fit right. Reads weird.

Earl said...

What's hard to believe? All the ministers came out of UCG. Most people knew dozens of ministers before the split. The ministers were choosing sides at least 5 years before the split and there was turmoil among two major factions that became more obvious over the Denton property brouhaha. During and after the split most everyone heard aspersions about ministers on each side from ministers on the opposing side, so aspersions before the split shouldn't be hard for you to believe. Maybe you just didn't know or maybe you have a vested interest in calling into question something many in UCG and now COGWA experienced.

Anonymous said...

During and after the split most everyone heard aspersions about ministers on each side from ministers on the opposing side...

Really? So you knew ministers from both sides putting out aspersions about each other. Only ministry know that "Earl".

Earl said...

Don’t forget how ministers were writing letters before the official split. Each side of ministers justifying why they were choosing the side they did and giving reasons for why the other side was in the wrong. Many members didn’t know which side to take and those on the fence were often privy to the ministers of both sides giving their two cents for why they should choose their side. You say “only the ministry know that.” If you know that to be true then it must be that we are both of the ministry and I say Howdy old friend. .....But, i know that is not true.

Anonymous said...

err no "Earl" that's resignation letters. But thanks for admitting in writing, what many suspected to be true, that the ministry began picking sides five years before the actual split.
Aren't the comment here always gossip earl. Have you never stopped to think.

Anonymous said...

Are the Lochner tapes real?