There are two terms I have heard over the years that always cut to my heart and left me with my own personal recognition that I made a very bad choice in my youth to go to Ambassador College and affiliate with the Worldwide Church of God. You could not have talked me out of it at the time. But too late old and all that...
The terms were:
"Ministurd"
and
"Embarrassing College"
The first, while giving me pause for thought, I can dismiss personally for my own reasons and understanding of my own motives and care of the churches and love for the people.
The second is simply true. I was not trained in any professional way in ministry and it was and is embarrassing. My own education in ministry became the origin of my term "Mere Bible Reader" because that is how a minister was trained back in the day. That is how I was trained in ministry. The teachers were mere Bible readers themselves as was HWA and GTA who took ministry off in directions they ought not to have gone in the first place.
The ministry of the Worldwide Church of God and her daughters have never been qualified to teach the scriptures, pastor churches or be anywhere near a "helper of their joy" to its laity. While sincerely wanting to be in ministry in my early life and probably believing I was being trained At Ambassador, which in my ignorance and not having grown up in it all, I honestly thought was a seminary that was spot on, in hindsight, I was poorly and badly trained in ministry.
No one taught the basics, or probably even knew what these basics were, of:
Simile- Rev.1:14
"His eyes were like flames of fire." A figure of speech expressing comparison or likeness, terms such as like, as ,so.
____________________
Add to this and in the realm of Higher Criticism, the actual origins of scripture, the problems of errancy in the texts, the concept of forgery nicely labeled pseudepigrapha, Midrash, Authorship issues, textural contradictions, apologetics, historical difficulties and what to do with good science done well along with many other real and important perspectives that need be addressed.
There was nothing on mental health issues or how to actually and lovingly deal with them in the congregation. They were mostly a function of demon problems evidently. (I grew up going to see my brother in a state hospital every week of my young life so was very familiar with mental health issues as well as physical handicaps, which he had)
There was nothing on proper counseling methods and approaches to problems unless disfellowshipping and marking people counts or appealing to scripture on whose the boss in the family and who definitely is not.
But is was not so. The bottom line reason was that the church was based on Herbert W. Armstrong's views of scripture and his only. HWA took unkindly to criticism or even a difficult question. He's not know the theological issue much less the answer or views to begin with.
There was never a "come let us reason together " concept that didn't end in HWA coming out on top and the reasoner being marginalized. Today PCG is based solely on Flurry's view of scripture and Pack's the same. Both are miserably mistaken and untrained in the scriptures.
The reality is that both men were never trained in ministry and are qualified only, as was myself, as a mere Bible reader. The term is not meant to be an insult but rather simply to reflect the fact that reading something does not qualify as a deep understanding of all the above concepts, problems and issues contained in it so one can rightly minister to others if that is one's desire and conviction as to where the truths of life reside.
My training in ministry and that of all WCG ministers was this with some I simply can't recall:
Year One
Harmony of the Gospels-Roderick C Meredith
He read them to us and used the time to give sermons. He knew nothing about the origins, problems with, politic and history of their formation nor taught it. It never would occur to him they were not as harmonious as he thought them to be. No discussion. (Well once I did ask a question but lived to regret it)
Speech 1
Glorified Spokesman's Club with grades
Old Testament Survey-David John Hill
Old Testament read to us like story time before bed. We had to read the boring parts on our own and verify that we did. No discussion
English Lit Class
I have no idea what that class was about or what was being taught.
We did have a Japanese instructor once there who invited a guest speaker and ask us, and this is the real way it came out, "Preese, no crapping in crass" We complied and did not crap in the crass. That came later during scandalous and drama filled times to come in ministry.
Music Appreciation-Lucy Martin
Required by HWA for our refinement I suppose. I had no clue or cared. Beyond boring
Principles of Living/ Missing Dimension in Sex
Don't get me started
Year Two
Second Year Bible
The Genesis Flood by Whitcomb and Morris
(This is the class Dave Pack refers to when he claims that he studied evolution in detail 50 years ago)
We had to outline the entire book. No discussion, no questions and the teacher had no clue about the terrible science and geological insanity it presented and was already debunked in the real world of such topics.
World History-Roy Schultz
A terribly inaccurate review of world history as presented from Genesis 1 to Genesis 11
Speech Class
Glorified Spokesman's Club with grades
Chemistry-Doug Winnail
"Isn't creation amazing" No chemistry learned, no homework thank God and it was kindergarten compared to my Hight School Advanced Placement Chemistry
Other stuff I can't recall
Year Three
Third Year Bible-Someone
More Bible reading
Science Something-Ken Hermann
World History-Dr. Hermann Hoeh
"Huh?"
Dr. Hoeh would simply start talking about the Bronze Age or something with no context, no background, no point and no reason I could perceive. I don't recall a final exam but if there was one I returned the favor I'm sure.
Year Four
Fourth Year Bible-George Kemnitz
Epistles of Paul
Church Letters
Maybe Revelation
No discussion, no questions, just more Bible reading with commentary
(George later became the Regional Director in Chicago and brought me from Minneapolis to Chicago along with Dave Pack . I was his man Friday and yes I mowed lawns, babysat kids and was chided for leaving the sauna or going through a door before him. Miserable year and I got fired the first time in the "Great East Coast Rebellion" by association. Should have stayed fired.
4th Year Speech
Only for those going into ministry "maybe" This was decided by men of power later in the year and announced to the couple out of the blue in a public forum.
Glorified Spokesman's Club with more grades.
Some other unmemorable classes
That's it! Add to this weekly sermons and Bible studies by the untrained as well and I was good to go evidently. I moaned inside when HWA showed up because we all know what the topic would be again. I moaned more when Gerald Waterhouse showed up.
"Refresher Programs for Ministry"
Weeks long sessions being flown into Pasadena to hear the men of power speak to us all over again.
It had potential to mature the ministry but fell far short due to really being brought out to check on the loyalty of the ministry and keep them all speaking the same wrong things on behalf of HQ.
Leroy Neff spent four hours in one session on "Marriage" by reading and commenting on EVERY scripture on Marriage from Nave's Topical Bible. I felt he did not prepare properly! lol
We also started to talk about oral sex and the Christian but Burk McNair started by accidently saying that personally he found the topic distasteful and that was the end of it as we could not all stop laughing. No edict was issued when the RD of the French Churches noted that if they did the entire French Church would fall away.
HWA brought up the topic of the Two Trees most times
Robyn Webber gave a talk on how we could keep our sermon topics on 3x5 cards in a file box. That was interesting...…….and well worth the 3000 mile flight to California all by itself
Bernie Schnippert preached at us in a somewhat arrogant tone and I noticed an ad in the LA Times on the floor by my feet of a Rock and Mineral Show in Long Beach that day. I feigned potty break and left for Long Beach. Great Show!
Refresher Programs were exhausting and just as shallow and compliant as Embarassing College was.
So many memories, so much time, so little training in ministry
Without common sense I'd have had no sense at all.
(Thanks Mom and Dad)
Personal regrets? Yes, of course. But that is the result of years of more drama and scandal in WCG than this boy could take. My own mental health suffered quietly through it and the conflict of my still believing it was The True Church run by fools was a difficult one to maneuver through in ministry.
My coping mechanisms were not always the best of choices. I learned the art of "Ask and you shall not have. Do not ask and all things are possible" when it came to how to pastor in real life. There were many a "snowflake from heaven" as we called HQ memos I ignored simply because they were simply stupid and many a "Must Be Played in the Churches" tapes that I did not play and hoped it would not come up. I never felt people should drive as far as they did to hear a taped sermon no matter who gave it and the "must" part of "to be played" often puzzled me as to why it was so vital I do so. Tapes mostly were meant to keep the local church in contact with the leadership in Pasadena. They worried about that connection with the locals I am sure.
All this to say that from my experience and perspective, having been there, the ministry of the Churches of God are not qualified in the actual practice of ministry and Biblical Studies much less the more practical aspects of proper counseling and care in the lives of real people with real lives.
Yes, I am an atheist and no, I did not just have a bad experience with "that Church". I did indeed attend Embarassing College and I was not trained in ministry as I know I would have had I gone to Roberts Wesleyan Seminary, which I also had been accepted to, instead of affiliating with WCG.
The ministry of the splinters is personality based and the personalities are diverse and perverse.
I believe down deep most ministers under others understand this and simply have no alternatives left to them in life. Others adopt the ridicuous and various callings they personally perceive , such as a Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry or Bob Thiel and they are simply and badly mistaken.
Some few have gone in through the years and gotten a better education in theological studies and ministry. Often they don't survive well in their Church of God choice and most aren't used to replace those that do not better inform themselves but have "Rank". That's just how it works.
Personally I am grateful that I did not continue in any splinter but choose a new path , no not the one I would have chosen as a younger man, but one that served me better and kept me away from the stress and strain of being an undertrained and over indoctrinated "ministurd" and graduate of Embarrassing College, Pasadena, California.
Thanks for listening.
Too long I know
57 comments:
AM-BASTARD COLLEGE!
Dennis,
For those of us who attended Embarassing College your post wasn’t too long. I am not as eloquent as you, but you gave a very accurate description of how things were at god’s West Point. When I was a freshman we ate in Mayfair in the basement. We were not allowed to sit down at our table until an upperclassman was at the head, then we were allowed to sit. Rod Meredith had this idea the college should be a mini West Point. One thing I remember a little different was it was Raymond McNair that made the comment about oral sex. I give Burk more credit to think but maybe I am wrong.
The only thing good for me going to AC was I met my wife there. She has supported me through thick and thin. It is painful to realize how much of my life was wasted listening to men who only knew how to parrot what that had been told. Yes, mere bible reading and then a sermon on what they thought it meant. However, Herbert didn’t stop with mere bible reading. He inserted his own meaning to what he read. Example, “you shall tithe on the increase of your fields” he changed it to everyone tithe on everything. Plus he made it 3 tithes.
Oh well Dennis you posted an entertaining commentary. As a minister I enjoyed working with the people. Most were sincere hard working people trying to do what they thought was required of them. I could have done without ever knowing most of the leading men at headquarters. Wish I had been smart enough to go to a mineral show in Long Beach.
Jim-AZ
Thanks Jim,
It could be a hoot for sure. I had to remove my feet from my own desk because only three things were allowed on the desk at any one time for some dumbshit reason. I had exceeded the limit. I think that was my first "f you" in my mind of course. Still a "sin" but undetectable at the time. lol
Ultimately I realize that I could not be here if I had not been there. Butterfly effect and all that. South Carolina is turning out to be a lovely place to settle in once again with _Ms._________. Miss the Pacific Northwest, but being there alone was not in my best interest. Nice to be back with the kids except the part where this week a mass shooter was caught and expelled from my Grandkids school
https://www.thestate.com/news/local/environment/article233526187.html
AC also kept me out of Vietnam, where I would have tried to make peace and been blown away the first week. My draft number was lower then my age at the time.
Appreciate the article, glad to have listened.
I wonder how many still have the "accepted propaganda" of Ambassador College still in their memories instead of the way it "really was". I remember growing up I was in awe of the immaculate gardens, and the utopian-like image the "YA" films presented. It seemed to be such a paradise - Lawrence Welk moves and smiles and all.
Smoke and mirrors.
many a "Must Be Played in the Churches" tapes that I did not play
I wonder about this point. How many people stayed in WCG who might have left if you exposed them to what HQ was really saying? Especially for members who came in because of the media rather than because of family, they likely did feel an imagined connection to HQ. Some would have been happier members if you had allowed them to deepen that connection via Must Play sermons, and others would have been horrified and left much sooner than if you hadn't sheltered them. Thanks for the detailed introspection and recollection!
Back when I was a student, one of the more brilliant and gifted members of our class, the late Andy Voth, had participated in some sort of seminar involving other Southern California university students. Andy was in our second year speech class, and one of his speeches was based upon that experience.
Our classes at AC didn’t seem all that different from my high school classes at a public school. They didn’t raise any big red flags. Up until Andy’s speech, I had thought of them as containing accurate and in depth information, well researched by such individuals of the caliber of Dr. Hoeh, Gene Hogberg, Bob Gentet, and other unknown staff members who assisted GTA with the information to prepare him for the broadcast. I could not have told you what eisegesis or proof-texting even was at that point in time. Basically, we were taught to find materials which supported our beliefs. That is what Ambassador College “research” was. I partially blame Alexander Hislop for this! I believe he unwittingly wrote the blueprint for many of HWA’s thought patterns, theories, and teachings.
Andy, in his speech, related how when he attempted to contribute at the seminar (using the pearls we learned at AC), he was continually shot down by some of the other students, who would make remarks such as “That is ridiculous! Didn’t you take (such and such) course? If you had, you would know that .....” This was an unusual experience for Andy. He could usually hold his own amongst just about anyone. The message of his speech was to be cautious about what you share, because there are those with “the world’s” knowledge who can appear to make you look like a fool. And, of course that would have been the typical AC perspective of the day on those with a greater fund of knowledge.
The speech was troubling for me personally, because up until then, I had thought of the fund of knowledge we were accumulating at AC as being unimpeachable, but just as yet unknown to the greater academic community. We were going to be teaching these things to the academics in the Millennium and during the 100 year period.
Andy’s speech provided the first crack in our “armor”. Many more cracks appeared over the next ten years, more or less preparing me for the great disappointment of 1975.
BB
You summed things up mighty well. We were constantly reassured that we were the elect and accepted HWA's assurance of a special calling. I never really did fit in but I tried really hard. It still took a long time to wise up and see through the whole thing.
Thanks for sharing that BB. Andy was a quiet thinker from my recollection of him but did not have him in a teaching situation. I look back and feel I was brain dead to most things outside of the church. On the other hand, I had my own views of what was important and what wasn't. Nothing Gerald Waterhouse said was important or connected to the NT Gospel as I understood it growing up in mainstream actually understood the point Christianity. I took HWA at times with a grain of salt, never thought much of the need to understand British Israelism as if it mattered again to the Gospel and of course the insanity of the "Place of Safety." Ted was just charismatic of himself but got stuck in his own views of the 70's and never seemed to learn anything new. While he personally didn't seem to like me very much, I found him a fascinating personality and had hoped he'd survive to take the Church into a more realistic practice and perspectives. Prophecy buffs always annoyed me as if they knew and they didn't.
Anyway, great tales on the path of waking up!
Thanks for sharing BB. I knew Andy as a student but not teacher. He was a quiet thinker and very intelligent. I did not know he had passed away. Where do we go???? :) From stardust thou has come and to stardust shalt thou return seems about right.
I was the compliant believer at AC because it was all new and interesting, including the personalities. Over a short time I took some of what HWA said with a grain of salt depending and never thought his way of "A strong hand from somewhere" was anything less than being ashamed of the Gospel. Of course the crowd he thought he was going before would have thought him nuts if he was just another old preacher so I get that, but he said nothing of value except I am sure he enjoyed the ride.
GTA gave me hope of a generational change of which I could be a part in bringing the church out of majoring in the minors and prophetic nonsense, but that was not to be. Aside from GTA not liking me very much for whatever reasons, he was interesting and ran on charisma. He did get stuck in the 70's as the years went by and the man who I thought must know everything seemed to know very little about all that we had learned in the past 30 years.
At any rate, thanks or sharing the waking up story
Dennis, sad stuff, for sure.
In one video, reviewed by The State over the weekend, the teenager describes himself as a “hater of all black men” and twice uses the N-word. He pretends an object on the ground is an African American and shoots it repeatedly with two guns.
He then looks at the camera and says: “Thank you for watching my PSA. Fuck all niggers.”
A key question among some parents is why they were not told about the shooting threat to the school.
Read more here: https://www.thestate.com/news/local/environment/article233526187.html#storylink=cpy
Of course Ted never seemed to learn anything new. How could he, he spent all his free time womanizing. The same with Gerald Waterhouse, he spent long hours in gay bars.
I too learned from the wisdom of the AC Bible classes - think I always got an A - what a genius! But then we did not do any real study as Dennis pointed out.
If they made us learn Hebrew and Greek, it would not have been nearly so easy.
Plus the different oldest versions - what some old documents left out - then why was new information added.
Plus some basics - how you could have managed an Exodus of 2 to 3 million people plus livestock - did you give the animals paddles to dispose of their manure?
How the world could have handles a universal flood - I have only read the article that explained quite clearly it was impossible, I have never seen one that explained clearly and scientifically how it could be possible.
Many more questions like this - but impossible for a fundamentalist to answer convincingly. (They do try to answer them - plenty of examples on YouTube.)
Oh well, ignorance is bliss....
Dennis Diehl is the Forrest Gump of WCG.
Nck
Then I"ll.be leuitenant Dan, cheated out of his destinny by Forrest, but actually his best friend (after BuBba).
Nck
I wanted to go to AC after graduating high school, but I wasn’t accepted. I’m so glad in retrospect, but I wonder what my life would have been like had I gone. As it was, I spent the next 35 years deeply entrenched in the wcg, I’m free to use my own brain now, for the last 20 years. Thank God.
No seminary teaches the truth or trains people properly. Ya gotta define your own path by reading a variety of books on all sides. Otherwise you remain narrow. You end up believing in all sorts of lies. Nobody tells you all the Christian stories in the life of Jesus are allegories taken from the Mystery religions. None of it was meant to be literal since the Mystery religions did not take it literally.
Turing water into wine--taken from the Mysteries.
Eating bread and wine represents becoming one with the god--pantheism.
Born of a mortal virgin -- pagan
Father was god--pagan.
Born in a cowshed--pagan.
The three shephards or wise men--pagan.
Born again by ritual death and burial (baptism) -- pagan.
Died for our sins--pagan.
Called to suffer--pagan.
Preached in hell for three days--pagan.
Born on Dec 25 -- pagan.
Ressurrected at Easter--pagan.
The list goes on and on and on. None of this is based on the book by Hislop. I got it all from other sources.
Anon 301 That's correct. One only gets the denominational spin unless one attends a very liberal beholding to no one Ivy League Divinity School. The old old story is indeed very old.
Dennis: Google Andrew Voth, California, Obituary, and the information you asked about will come up, including a gallery of pictures from various times in his life. Andy and I were not in any way on the same wavelength, but I certainly respected his intelligence, his talent, and his contributions in speech class. Did you ever see his painting of the newspaper clipping of JFK's death? It was so perfect in every detail that it was disqualified by those who were in charge of the contest for which it was prepared. They suspected that he had faked it, but he didn't. He had hand-painted it, and the portrait and the type looked better than they would have if they had been printed on an old Heidelberg Windmill letter press! Yet, the guy didn't know the meaning of the word "vanity". Very humble, but in a sincere way. I think he ended up as the curator of a museum or art gallery up around Santa Barbara.
BB
Yeah we were unqualified for the roles we had let ourselves be deceived into thinking we were qualified to fill. I wish I could go back and retrieve some of those letters I used to write. However, when it comes to religion, no one is qualified to fill that spurious role based on a book that is in itself a lie and a delusion. Fullers Seminary was really no better, and neither were any of the other theological abortions this world has embraced. It's all a big farce based on myths and outright nonsense.
BB, that's right, Andy was a fantastic artist. Forgot that part
We may have had more shining stars in our class, Dennis, but it would seem that Andy Voth and Orlin Grabbe shined the brightest. Orlin had been my dorm mate freshman year.
Andy was deeply into the fine arts, which of course not only included classical artistry, but also classical music. And, Andy not only appreciated those things, he also performed them! I may have been a rock n roller, but I did have an appreciation for art, and after my two years at AC, I took a course in art appreciation at Pasadena City College. Funny, true anecdote coming up next. Back in 1989, I persuaded another biker's girlfriend to come with me. Sounds nasty of me, but he was involved in some illegal activities, and really was not looking after her best interests. On one of our first dates, we rode my bike to the Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, pretty much in full biker garb. People in the museum were not accustomed to seeing people like us appreciating the tapestries, paintings, etc. I must comment that we revelled a bit in the shock value. My previous girlfriend and I had spent hours at the Huntington Museum though, and I kind of thought that showing my cultured side would make a good impression right off the bat with this one. Annnnttt! Wrong answer! This one was bored stiff, and expressed profound gratitude that we were finally leaving after a couple hours! I kept our entertainment strictly blue collar after that, and we had about ten good years together.
In retrospect, AC may be an embarrassment on resumes and such, but we did have some interesting classmates, and there were quite a number of opportunities that came our way. You had to kind of pick and choose, though, because the faculty had a tendency to force-feed us a mess of Victorian things.
BB
The Victorian things got worse after Brickett Wood opened and there was an invasion of the class minded British, BB. I chafed at that influence, but the Armstrongs bathed in it. It went along perfectly with their narcissistic class mindedness.
BB
Orlin was a brilliant hoot. I was in touch with him when he moved to South America and was brilliant in finance.
"Orlin Grabbe was born October 8, 1947, in Hale County, Texas,[2] and grew up on a farm in Briscoe County in the Texas panhandle. He showed great academic prowess in his youth and in response, he was invited to participate in nationwide, specialized education in mathematics.[3] Two of his brothers also achieved doctorates and became professors. His brother Lester was a professor of theology at the University of Hull in England,[4] while his brother Crockett was a professor of physics at the University of Iowa.[5]
In the fall of 1966, Grabbe joined an older brother at the Worldwide Church of God's Ambassador College, based in Pasadena, California. He graduated in 1970 and served on the teaching staff until 1973. During this time, he was the editor of the student newspaper.[1] In his memoir, written later in his life, he described not only his own experiences and thought processes, but also the atmosphere that permeated the college, its students, and the organization as a whole.[6]
After leaving Ambassador, Grabbe enrolled at the University of California, Berkeley, to pursue his interests in research and science, with an emphasis in mathematics. In 1976, he received a Bachelor of Arts degree in economics. He continued his education at Harvard University where he was awarded a Ph.D. in economics in 1981.[1]
Grabbe specialized in the study of financial derivative instruments and published important pricing models for futures, forward contracts and options, especially in the foreign exchange (FX) markets.[7][8][9] " Wikipedia
Hard not to recall that his internet site, even in the most serious of his writings, was peppered with pics of beautiful nude women. He wrote well on the quantum physics as well which I think is how I refound him in the first place. He died in Costa Rica at 60.
Wikepedia only has me listed as "The Forrest Gump of the Worldwide Church of God" :)
I imagine Norton Simon or Norton and Simon rolled in their graves when you showed up at their art museum!
In 1995, Grabbe moved to Reno, Nevada.
3:01
Correlation isn’t proof of causality likewise similarities aren’t proof of connections.
Just as Hislop’s sloppy scholarship can be proven as nonsense based on the above principles so can your false assertions of pagan origins for various Christian and/or Biblical aspects.
Re BB
What a hoot BB walking into the Norton Simon in full Biker Regalia, walking up to the entrance mentioning to the guards, I'm entering the building and I am not paying. Response what you say? I am entering the building and not paying. Guards reaching for their walkie talkies.....grabbing BB and shouting...."and why wouldn't you??
Answer. Because I have a member card and patron star!
Scene 2: Next floor. Byker walking in full regalia including fox tail towards personel.
Excuse me would you please be so kind as to explain where I can find Lucas Cranach the Elder?
(Cut scene only on DVD: Byker walking toward guards. Show me the Nazi Loot.)
Re DD
Haha sorry for that Wiki listing Dennis. I know how you feel. I have this with some Bilderbergers and then .......there is me. I really enjoyed Grabbe's musings on the "Strauss" visit. No BB, not the musician, you culture you.........
Costa Rica... a good place to reside for the animal lover.
Perhaps Grabbe did contribute to the 2008 Financial Armageddon with his contribution toward derivative instruments, bringing about the end of the world as we knew it or in wcg speak, the end of an age.
nck
Is it just me, but Dennis's new pic has him looking noticeably older. All his articles on Banned has taken its toll.
BB and DD:
If anything, life is paradoxical. I was also at Ambassador College. I was a low class employee. I saw AC in action. I witnessed its social dynamics from the inside. I saw the dehumanization. I saw the strutting peacocks. I saw not only its great flaws but also something of its arcane, little pathologies.
Whereas you joined the "elite corps of impudent snobs" at AC, I was carefully and assiduously instructed in the fact that I was persona non grata by the same institution. Then to give this a brutal, ironic twist, I had to pay for some part of your education. But this happened to most of the little people in the WCG who were not on the esteemed side of the ledger like yourselves.
Great to see you reminisce. It would be droll if it had not all been so profoundly destructive.
Anonymous said...
Is it just me, but Dennis's new pic has him looking noticeably older. All his articles on Banned has taken its toll.
No, just livin' the dream :) That was last week in Greenville, I needed to update and did. Hitting year 70 soonish. I need a computer avatar that never ages! Mostly on Banned one has no clue how old or what respondents actually look like. It helps with communication I think mostly for the good
NEO,
I'd like to think that you would have had a nicer experience in Pasadena than you did in Texas. As a student, I had a rather humbling student job as a gardener. We were known to sling manure from time to time, and to smell like it. High powered execs walking across campus would frequently see us on our knees weeding the dichondra. I am also not aware of any mistreatment of conscientious objectors in Pasadena. Not all of us "elite" ones acted entitled. Dick Plache already had his "cream of the crud cliche well in place to keep us mindful of our lowly and tenuous positions.
BB
I don't see any of you ex WCG ministerial high flyers complaining about the wages, free flights and numerous freebies.
You lived life on the hog at the expense of hard working members. The members had to put up with the traumas and worse without the WCG expense account.
If anyone wants to know what 84=year old me looks like, a recent photo adorns my Allen C. Dexter Facebook page. Age takes its toll as the tissues lose their youthful suppleness. Its effects are inexorable.
NEO Also spent three and half of the four years in the gardening dept as well. Almost got my eye poked out pulling up ivy and came near falling off Grove Terrace trying to pull a hose over the railing to water plants on the outside of them around the edge of the roof.
One day an Evangelist type walked by and noted, "Just think, without me you'd not have a job" Hmmmm…...I managed to keep my then compliant mouth shut but the thought of "And without the tithes of my family and others, you'd not have yours" Should have muttered it. It might have ended my career choice early and I could have gone on to study paleontology at the University of Arizona or something. :)
3:01pm I keep hearing that. That Jesus was a myth, he was just another of many virgin born, dying and rising pagan gods. But as of yet no one has shown me the evidence.
I'm not talking about evidence from writings from tge third fourth or fifth centuries ad, which tell what these pagan religions taught.
I'm looking for the actual writings from the first, second, third, etc. centuries bc.
From what I understand we do have names of pagan gods written in stone from long before Jesus, but we don't know what was taught about these supposed gods from that time.
However we do have writings from two, three, four or more hundred years after Jesus telling us what these pagan religions believed, but how do we know that Christianity adopted teachings from them rather than the other way around?
I have asked for proof many times here and on other forums. I have received none. No one has even attempted to show me where I can find such writings from before Jesus. Because they don't exist. All that you said is based upon pure assumption. Just as the bible is based upon pure assumption, aka faith.
Show me something written in 200bc that Mithra was virgin born, died and arose, and then we'll talk. Not something written in 200ad that says that Mithra was virgin born, died and arose.
Where's the proof?
km
BB...dont forget the spreading of fish fertilizer on the dichondra. Talk about a smelly job! A shower could not clean off the stench.
Raymond McNair was the biggest pompous ass when he was in Pasadena. He treated the lower echelon employees like dirt. One time I was acid washing the granite around the egret fountain. Barricades were set up. the acid was foaming and bubbling and making a mighty stink. Along comes Buffy. He stops in front of the barricades, pissed that it was in his way. Steps over it and walks in his $1,000 British shoes through the bubbling mass of acid. Then proceeds to tell me I shouldn't block the walkway. He could not divert around about 30 feet to the other bridge. I took great delight in the fact that his shoes were ruined!
NEO's tribulation lasted 3.5 years? How odd.
Nck
Raymond was the one who proclaimed that by following his principles of happy marriage, he could have married anyone and made it work.
DD:
It is odd that you were on the gardening crew for 3.5 years and went into the ministry. At Big Sandy, male students did not go into the ministry if they were still on the gardening crew as seniors. Building and Grounds was staffed with underclassmen. Male students entered the ministry from some kind of a desk job. My guess is that this occasioned a lot of ambitious jockeying in the student body to land a paper shuffling position so one would appear more ministerial.
HWA announced in a sermon at the Field House that it was a shame for an AC graduate to have to work with his hands. (I was sitting in the audience when he said this. And I doubt that this included female graduates.) Evidently, AC grads were not supposed to do that kind of low class, demeaning work like, for instance, being a carpenter.
NO2HWA wrote:
I took great delight in the fact that his shoes were ruined!
Why would you take delight in that? Buffy simply took another $1,000 from the church's third tithe fund, which because of the ruined shoes now went to a "Levite" instead of a widow. Consequences are for the crud like you and the widow, not for the cream like Raymond.
Raymond was the one who proclaimed that by following his principles of happy marriage, he could have married anyone and made it work.
He and Rod Meredith would have made a wonderful couple.
Too bad it was probably muriatic acid, and not lysergic!
I knew all the Grabbes, including Ina who was a girlfriend for a time when I was a Freshman. They all had brilliant minds and all became disillusioned over time. I've often wondered about the source of their mental capabilities and wish they'd produced more progeny to perhaps carry that on. Ina had several children by Ed Lain, her husband, a blind man with great ability and a very sharp mind of his own. I don't know if Lester had any children or not. It's a tragedy that so many brilliant people often leave no descendants behind.
Near_Earth_Object said...
DD:
It is odd that you were on the gardening crew for 3.5 years and went into the ministry.
I ended up the last six months working in Church Administration doing maps of church areas and such. My last year of gardening was all the indoor plants in all the offices including GTA's and HWA's so I got to know just about everyone in one way or another.
On one round through HWA's office I saw the National Geographic with pictures of the first fossilized dinosaur eggs found in China. That evening HWA went into a fit that dinosaurs were of Satan's world and creation and like Satan could not reproduce. That was a real head scratcher but I suspect the magazine set him off or perhaps he just coincidentally had not read it. HWA was no student of the sciences from what I could tell.
I can see HWA saying that. I also recall him bragging that there had never been a single divorce between AC students.
Questions I should have asked in class (or maybe not):
1) If Jesus performed so many miracles, why did the Pharisees keep asking for a sign?
If someone today was healing the blind, deaf, lame, sick, mentally handicapped - no one would be asking for a sign - these miracles are the signs.
2) If Jesus' disciples would do even greater miracles (and according to Acts, they did), why aren't we doing them today? Does this mean we are not His true disciples?
3) Since Jesus's teaching focused on the way of life, including loving and caring for one another, why do we focus on prophecy?
Still no proof!
km
WTF, KM? Banned is your personal on demand research staff? Looking into these things is each of our own responsibilities. Why don’t you go to Walmart and buy yourself a new set of brains?
9:00 wrote "Looking into these things is each of our own responsibilities."
Have you exercised this responsibility yourself?
If you check into the Mithra cult, you will find that older scholars, knowing that Roman soldiers brought this cult from India back to Rome, assumed that the teachings of Roman Mithraism that resemble Christian teachings (e.g., the death and resurrection of the god) must therefore predate Christianity by possibly hundreds of years.
But when scholars traveled to India to study the original Mithra teachings, they found that Indian Mithraism teachings were entirely different. Apparently the Roman soldiers brought back the name of the god and little else. Roman Mithraism cannot be dated before circa 200 CE, a time when Christianity was well established (if mostly underground) in Rome. With this new knowledge, it becomes obvious which group borrowed from the other.
Please do your own research.
6:56am thank you. As I said, which you substantiate, the only evidence used in these Jesus myth claims are based upon writings from after the common era, but Price and Carrier won't tell you this.
I've done enough research to prove the theory bogus, which is why I demand proof if someone posts a "matter of fact" post like 3:01pm did.
Obviously he/she has no clue, nor does 9:00am!
km
With what 6:56am said I'll repost my original comment:
3:01pm I keep hearing that. That Jesus was a myth, he was just another of many virgin born, dying and rising pagan gods. But as of yet no one has shown me the evidence.
I'm not talking about evidence from writings from tge third fourth or fifth centuries ad, which tell what these pagan religions taught.
I'm looking for the actual writings from the first, second, third, etc. centuries bc.
From what I understand we do have names of pagan gods written in stone from long before Jesus, but we don't know what was taught about these supposed gods from that time.
However we do have writings from two, three, four or more hundred years after Jesus telling us what these pagan religions believed, but how do we know that Christianity adopted teachings from them rather than the other way around?
I have asked for proof many times here and on other forums. I have received none. No one has even attempted to show me where I can find such writings from before Jesus. Because they don't exist. All that you said is based upon pure assumption. Just as the bible is based upon pure assumption, aka faith.
Show me something written in 200bc that Mithra was virgin born, died and arose, and then we'll talk. Not something written in 200ad that says that Mithra was virgin born, died and arose.
Where's the proof?
km
Good posts km
km has alluded to his proofs, but has not as yet quoted or published them. Until he writes an article or provides deeper details instead of bragging that he has them, it’s not even going to register with atheists. They will just continue to repeat what they read on their sites.
Thanks Jim. It's one thing to doubt Jesus' existence, that's impossible to prove. It's another to claim dogmatically that he was a myth from pagan origins, which also is impossible to prove.
The latter is a major pet peeve of mine because my sister and her husband fell for that shit to justify his working on the Sabbath. Going from $35,000 a year to over six figures was too tempting I guess. Good thing God's merciful. (Either merciful for them or merciful for myself if I'm wrong about Sabbath keeping) I'm no ones judge!
km
7:49am my only proof is the lack of writings from Before the Common Era about what the pagan religions specifically taught. None, nada, nil. As I said, they use writings from the second and third century After the Common Era to try to prove their theory.
Apparently you are 3:01pm and 9:00am, you are the one writong dogmatic statements that Jesus was a myth, which you can't prove.
So....
km
I'm willing to bet that 7:49am doesn't even know who Price or Carrier, whom I mentioned in my 4:25pm post, are. He/she will most likely have to Google them. Here I'll help you out:
Jesus myth Price Carrier
km
I believe, iirc, that HWA taught that Nimrod and Semirramis were Satan’s counterfeit for Jesus and Mary. I believe that he also taught that there were other mythical virgin-god-child figures in pagan mythology, but these were taught not as archetypes for Jesus and Mary, but as Satan’s deceptions.
Jesus being based on mythology has only gained traction within the past several decades. There are also theories that He is a composite of several historical characters, such as Appolonius of Tyanna.
BB
Byker, that Satan knew the basics of God's plan from creation and counterfeited it was one of the two explanations that I gave to my sister when her husband started to fall for the Jesus myth crap.
I knew that would be considered a haphazard explanation by most atheists who believe Jesus to be a myth so I also explained to her that there are no clear writings (there are interpretations/extrapolations of Egyptian pagan writings but nothing concrete) from before Jesus explaining what the pagan religions really believed concerning the birth and death of their gods.
Hell, we don't even have original copies of the bible let alone a "systematic theology project" 😈 about pagan religions prior to Jesus.
km
Here's my favorite Jesus myth author. Unfortunately she passed away from cancer in 2015.
She was a whole lot easier to look at than Price or Carrier.
Click here,
km
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