The Fundamentalist craving for "The End" to come, a hallmark of the Churches of God, poisons the life one actually has and replaces it with a wasted life that lives for just around the corner, soon, 3-5 years, 10 at the most and 25 at the most.
It has proven to be an insane and wasteful emotional way to live one's life under the mistaken views of Herbert Armstrong and is continued to this day by his shadow people who imagine themselves in high places and not infrequently spoken of in the scriptures, which is delusional to the harm of all who follow blindly and uncritically.
This is theological and moral insanity
Cocky question. Truthful answer
26 comments:
This also leaves spouses feeling alone and uncertain, never knowing when the "church member" will suddenly up and leave because the guru said to. It destroys the trust and confidence that is supposed to be the foundation of a marriage and long lasting relationship. You see the body but you know no one is home.
Hitchens and Dawkins bring their own problems to the discussion. They demonstrate that the Abrahamic religions do not stand up to scientific or even historical scrutiny, then jump to the false conclusion, "I have disproved the existence of God." These men are blind or racist enough that they don't consider the very different theological arguments of Chinese religion, nor even of Buddhism and Hinduism. Each of these men is an expert in a field other than religion, but is arrogant and presumptuous enough to consider himself an expert on religion. It's the Dunning-Kruger Effect in action.
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. note
For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
Hebrews 11:13-16
c f ben yochanan
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. note
For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
Hebrews 11:13-16
c f ben yochanan
Jesus Christ, who knew about the future prepared for the ultimate salvation of mankind (Matthew 25:34) and destruction of the destroyers (Satan and his angels: Matthew 25:41, 46), never suggested anyone abandon the present moment; however, He did give us the following advice:
"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matthew 6:34
John
This reminds me of a quote from the movie, Tomorrow is Forever, with Orson Welles. Towards the end of the movie he is speaking to a woman who would like to turn the clock back, back to the way life was two decades ago. Welles said, "If you want to stop living in the present you can reach into the past but you'll never get back what you lost. You only lose what you have.”
Hitchens' comments are undeniable. Christian fundamentalists preach that the Rapture is the next predicted event followed by the Tribulation and Armageddon and finally, the climactic return of Jesus with the perfect government of the Kingdom of God. Every knee shall bow.
Eagerly looking forward to the fulfillment of these morbid prophesies steals our ability to make the most of today. It is part of the fear instilled in us as kids and prevents maximizing our potential. This is another aspect of bible teaching that is detrimental.
Being subjected to these beliefs as children is as bad or worse than polio. Our outlook becomes crippled for life.
Though the christians who indoctrinated me probably didn't realize it, they were instrumental in ending my faith. Along with their indoctrination they planted a ticking time bomb by telling me lies about the bible. A lot of them.
While there were probably as many reasons why they told me so many lies as there were lies themselves, probably one stands out as preeminent among them: the people who told me these lies about the bible had no other source of information about christianity. Without the bible, their religion would cease to exist. Without the bible as the inspired word of a god their religion would cease to exist. Neither they, nor anyone they've ever known, has any memory of 1st century christianity. No christian alive today would have any information about the christian god were it not for the bible. They would never even guess such a god had ever been thought to exist. Without the bible, we've all got nothing. So it was necessary, at all costs, to preserve the illusion that the bible was all the things they needed it to be, even if the true facts meant it couldn't possibly be any of those things.
One of the most important pants-on-fire-whoppers they told me was that the bible's chain of custody was secure. They told me the Hebrew texts were secure because of the Masorites (not true), and that the Greek texts were all written by 95AD, had all been conveniently collected right from the source by John, at which point the Disciple/Apostle John wrote Revelation in exile on the Isle of Patmos, at which point he "canonized" it, wrapped it up with a nice, neat bow, said his "amens," handed it off to the mucky-muck whoevers, kicked up his feet, and breathed his last (yeah, right). No, seriously. No tampering, no redactions, no added endings, no squabbles between apostles, no anonymous authors, no pseudepigrapha, and most of all, no uncertainty. And being good fundamentalist protestants, we didn't accept the catholic's authority for anything. So the fact the canon we have is identical to the one hashed out by the catholics in the 4th century, who according to their own account were busy trying to fish the "authentic" texts out of a sea of pseudepigrapha, well, it must be like the dinosaurs—just another one of the devil's many clever conspiracies sent to test our faith. It's clearly a book written by the hand of man, and not even by the hands of the men we needed it to have been written by. And it's clearly a book canonized, not right away by an apostle, but circa 250 years later by catholics on a fishing expedition ordered by a pagan Roman emperor.
Why would they tell me wall-to-wall lies about a book that they also took every conceivable opportunity to remind me condemned lying?
They were obviously insecure about the actual facts. And they weren't comfortable relating those facts. It was easier to lie. To themselves just as much as to me. If they couldn't handle the truth, how could they expect me, a mere child, to handle it? But I wasn't fragile like that, because I've never really cared what the truth was, I just wanted to know it, that's all. Did they think I wouldn't find out what it was eventually? And what did they think would happen when I did? How did they think I would handle it then? Well, I handled it just fine, thanks, and no thanks!
Once it became clear to me what a load of bunkum I was told about my only real link to christianity, it's impossible that my days as a christian could have been anything but numbered.
Continued...
…continued
And it was at that point that I began to read my bible with a more critical eye. Suddenly mysteries about the bible I had never understood before began to run clear. The god who leads the Israelites out of Egypt is not the creator of mankind, but an imposter. The creator of the human mind would understand what inputs would be necessary to elicit the desired outputs, but to the god of Israel, the human psyche is a black box, and he is continually surprised and flummoxed by the Israelites responses, so much so that by the time we get halfway through Numbers, he's throwing temper tantrums. Not a good look even for a god who isn't all-knowing.
Why was the book of Job so unnecessarily long with these largely repetitious opaque diatribes? I realized what I was reading was not a biography, but what appears to be a classical Greek comedy recast as Jewish wisdom literature. It was opaque because I was expecting the book to be about Jewish values, but the virtues the book is centered around, are Hellenistic virtues, not Hebrew ones. Similar classical influences have been noted in the textual criticism of the other wisdom literature, Ecclesiasties and Proverbs. And if you've ever read through Proverbs and wondered why you didn't feel any wiser afterward, don't worry, there's not much in it that comes across as all that wise to a modern bulb of only average brilliance. Waxing poetic about the dangers of visiting prostitutes? If you want to have friends, be friendly? Geez Lou-weez, I never would have thought of any of that on my own!
As a christian, it's easy to read the synoptic gospels with a preconceived idea of Jesus, as David put it in the OP, as "the Great Moral Teacher." But if you set aside everything you think you know and read the gospels for what they actually say—for the words they actually put into Jesus' mouth—he is a radical apocalypticist who is about as extreme as it's possible to get, and he says that literally every physical thing and earthly desire should be subordinated to the concerns of the next age, since the present one is set to pass into oblivion momentarily, and any provision made for the here-and-now necessarily comes at the expense of the hereafter. Even if any of that had been true, there's still few who could realistically have lived that way for any length of time even back then. Try to live that way today and you'll be judged clinically insane, and they might be right. Setting aside the inconvenience of Jesus' failed prophecy to return within the lifetimes of those around him, even so, if christianity were as true as christians insist, doesn't that mean that the christian god intended everyone, everywhere, to live like there was no tomorrow for the last 2,000 years? Think of the suffering! Or if everyone had lived the Life Apocalyptic, would he have somehow been empowered to return a lot sooner? So christians would be stuck arguing that our sins were so powerful that they kept god away like a force field for nearly 2000 years? And what kind of a god is this that sets up a cruel zero-sum game which mandates present suffering as the only way to ward off future suffering?
Once you start pulling on these threads, you just go from absurdity to absurdity. The rabbit holes lead nowhere beneficial to christianity, which is why you're not supposed to start asking questions or thinking for yourself in the first place. And if christians have to lie to you to keep you from doing any of that, well then, that's just the lesser of two evils, isn't it? What's a little hypocrisy between friends, right? But of course, if you ever do start, the whole thing just blows up.
Anonymous 9:58 and 10:02, well stated. You have obviously done some reading, and reached logical insights. It is sad to think about all the people duped by false documents making up the Christian Bible. No one is coming to save us. Isn't that obvious by now?
Congratulations on your transition to a more real world view. Beware of the preacher around the corner whose mission it is to fill your head with crap.
10.02 AM
God understands your doubts and questions. Which is why He answers the prayers of those who put out effort, acting on the limited understanding that they have. This proves His existence, and His approval of the bible. This is the what Christian apostates hide, banking on the readers ignorance.
I don't believe that you are wiser than God in your complaints of the bibles contents.
Interesting exposition. If Satan is the author of confusion, it stands to reason that God should be the author of order, yet the study of divinity is nothing but confusion.
A thought for the day: What if, instead of being a non sequitur, an oxymoron was someone who had been brainwashed with an especially strong detergent?
BB
Anon3:51PM wrote:
"I don't believe that..."
You obviously don't care what I don't believe, so why should I care what you don't believe?
And of course Bob Thiel adds to the mix...
Anonymous said...
10.02 AM
"God understands your doubts and questions."
Answer: As well it should since it provokes them.
"Which is why He answers the prayers of those who put out effort, acting on the limited understanding that they have."
Answer: Which is why this makes absolutely no sense as a conclusion the idea that "God understands your doubts and questions" This also not true in practice or reality
"This proves His existence, and His approval of the bible."
Answer: No, this proves a great leap from one disconnected concept the next.
"This is the what Christian apostates hide, banking on the readers ignorance."
Answer: As well they should as I don't know of any Christian Apostates that reason like this. None I know "bank on the reader's ignorance" They tend to bank, if they bank at all, on a readers ability to think critically and consider other options of belief and evidence they might not have been aware of.
"I don't believe that you are wiser than God in your complaints of the bibles contents."
Answer: If you mean Bible God and the one that Bronze Age priests and scribes claim to speak for, yes I am. You could be too if you did some homework in the 21st Century. The average High School student could make a Bronze Age Priest and Iron Age Apostle's head spin.
Oxy clean BB.
Dennis
I found your 3.27 AM breakdown of my comment interesting but lacking substance. Reality trumps moral/political theology, including your intellectualizing. God often intervenes in the lives of those striving to go down the narrow gate, making His existence self evident to that person. This can't be proved to others, but it's not meant to.
My point is that there is a course of action whereby people can prove Gods existence to themselves. God holds those exposed to this viewpoint accountable come judgement day.
The excuse 'but Lord, Dennis the spiritual menace convinced me that you don't exist' will not be accepted.
That's fine 729. I just felt your statements were leaps of faith more than "reality". You're "since A is true there so is K" left some pretty big gaps between in my view. "This can't be proved to others" is correct. I question your view that God often intervenes in the lives of those striving to go down the narrow gate" etc. I have not personally found this to be so on a scale that cannot be about equal to time and chance or luck of the draw. That's just my experience.
It seems you are saying that God has an underground, special or have to be in the club way to prove his existence to the individual who looks for that outcome. If the outcome is a foregone conclusion before one starts, that is not proof of anything, again, to me.
I have no need or desire to convince you or anyone else of anything, just as I assume you don't either. I don't mind sharing my perspectives however. However, I don't call you Lord 739 the spiritual Mystic of Anonominity now do I? That belies a certain feeling of being threatened in your perspectives and name calling just feels better to you.
I can't help that I as billions of others, am evidence based. You know, the "prove me now herewith" kind of guy. The one who agrees with "it is to the glory of the King to search out a matter" , though now, one does not have to be the King to take advantage of information discovered. Now even the little people can search things out in the quest to prove all things. You are faith based. That's great. Just doesn't work for me in finding out what is actual the reality you feel you have already discovered somewhat mystically and by faith.
I'm glad you at least found my view interesting even though it lacked substance. That's how I found your's too, so we match! :)
Dennis
'I can't help that I, as billions of others, am evidence based...You are faith based.'
No really. That seems to be the case since you, like billions of others, are rigging the rules. The human 5 senses cannot directly discern the laws of physics and chemistry. All that is discernable is the effect of these laws. Yet when it comes to God, only dancing angels in front of them is considered adequate proof. So it's evidence plus reasoning when it comes to science, but only direct evident when it comes to matters of God.
One standard for me, another for thee.
God in the bible states many times that His universe and everything on this planet is proof enough of His existence.
PS, your 'science' approach doesn't ask, or ignores where the laws of physics and chemistry come from, or why the 35 fundamental constants are just right for the existence of suns, and life on this planet.
Dennis
I don't believe that calling you Dennis the spiritual menace is name calling. Rather it's calling a spade a spade. In fact, I consider calling you that name kind, since it doesn't inherently imply evil intent. I believe that there is a mountain of evidence to justify the label, and accurate 'name calling' is a trait of God.
When I was growing up in Herbie's cult, they used to tell us from the pulpit that Catholics and Protestants just retained the religion that had been handed to them by their families, without having put any thought into it, or having made a conscious choice. This implied that only we, the followers of HWA, put any serious thought into our faith. It was an appeal to our vanity, and made members feel special. And then, of course, I actually met Catholics and Protestants who did take their faith seriously enough to put much study into it. We weren't so special after all, just kind of deliberately weird.
Over the past several years, I've come to the conclusion that many of those left in the ACOGs now have the attitudes that we once ascribed to those Sunday-keeping Christians who retained their parents' faith. Comfortable with the British Israelism. "Kind of" keeping the sabbath. None of the structure or sense of urgency that was imposed during the reign of King Heriberto. Jaded, instead, and doing things in a perfunctory manner. I don't particularly enjoy arguing with them, but applaud the fact that they have withdrawn emotionally from the church and its tethers. It's no longer the intense thing that it used to be, and that is actually kind of a slow victory over Armstrongism. Victory through attrition is right in keeping with Gamaliel's Razor.
BB
"without having put any thought into it, or having made a conscious choice"
Wasn't that the entire basis of the 1960's youth revolution, die umwertung aller werte!!!
Every "Monty Python" sketch breathed that thought.
The sense of urgency of todays youngsters now lies with the climate, altering the destructive ways of the boomer generation and gretha thunberg.......
They seem to walk the walk instead of talk the talk (re environmenal pictures in the old plain truths directed to the boomer generation.)
nck
"They seem to walk the walk instead of talk the talk (re environmenal pictures in the old plain truths directed to the boomer generation.)"
And why wouldn't they? It's so easy today to do little and become famous via youtube and today's opining Journalists. I use the title Journalist very loosely because what is taught in Journalism schools today is far from true Journalism!
Anon, December 17, 2019 at 7:39 AM, you told Dennis the following:
"...My point is that there is a course of action whereby people can prove Gods existence to themselves. God holds those exposed to this viewpoint accountable come judgement day.
The excuse 'but Lord, Dennis the spiritual menace convinced me that you don't exist' will not be accepted..."
Why/how is God going to hold those individuals "accountable come judgment day?" Accountable for what? It sounds like a threat.
Dennis elsewhere, in a later post, Dennis told you that you were "believe based."
Faith is a fruit of God's Spirit; one either has it or one doesn't.
Both of you have your own beliefs about things. Perhaps it would be better to say that you are "believe based," as Dennis does not know whether you really have that fruit (faith) of God that comes from God's Spirit, or not.
But we could ask where does "believe" come from? Using the Bible:
"And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power," Ephesians 1:19
Well, that comes from God's Spirit also: the power of God's Spirit.
Well, anyway, it was an interesting read on the discussion between the two of you.
John
But how does one have belief?
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