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I recall hearing someone chastising another for getting a tattoo, reminding them that they should not do that because their body was the temple of the Holy Spirit etc.
The tattoed noted: "Did you ever read the description of Solomon's Temple or see the inside of an Episcopal Church? :)
Not to mention descriptions of God's Throne in Rev 4 and 15.
The Churches of God are decoration deprived. The principle of "As above so below" , given to Moses as to how the earthly temple MUST look...
Hebrews 8:5
"They serve a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle, "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."
..escapes them as Pagan, demonic and not to be toyed with. Besides, if they looked like every other church, people would go to every other church instead.
I would say that decorating Solomon's Temple as it is in heaven is completely different than a tattoo where you're changing the "decoration" as made by God. So the analogy doesn't seem to work. I see nothing wrong with tattoos though because they aren't for religious purposes as I think the markings condemned in the bible were.
My only problem would be a young woman getting a Gecko and a Butterfly, when she gets older it'll look like Godzilla fighting Mothra.
I love the smell of pine and conifers. I love the look of oak and maples and the green vibrant colors they provide in the summer and fall. Truly beautiful creations of the Sovereign Creator!
When digging at Megiddo in Israel, we took a side trip to Sepphoris which is the unspoken of city in the OT or NT, just four miles from Nazareth. The floor, uncovered in 1993, the year before my month digging there, had a huge circular Zodiac chronicling the Sun's journey through the constellations of the yearly cycle. A wonder, no doubt, to them of the day and worthy of art and awe.
Yes, planted and in soil. Alive with life. Giving life to all kinds of insects and birds. Not cut down dead and shoved in the corner of a room shedding pine needles into bare feet.
334 I was just referring to the analogy of someone condemning the tattoo because the body is the Temple of the HS when the Temple was pretty darned adorned.
Tattoo ... Isa 44:5 (NRSV) This one will say, “I am YHVH’s,” another will be called by the name of Jacob, yet another will write on the hand, “YHVH’s,” and adopt the name of Israel.
The only prohibition is making one for the dead ... Lev 19:28 (NKJV) You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am YHVH.
For all of our beliefs of what we strongly feel that we know or don't know, undoubtedly all of our concepts will be subject to change when there are no longer limitations. I'm constantly reminded of a remark that my grandmother made upon my grandfather's passing. She told me, "Bobby, he knows. We don't yet." And, that's just it. Nobody walking planet Earth today knows everything, or has 100% truth, no matter what they tell you. Scientists frequently have a better idea of what's going on than do religious teachers. We've known this from the days of Galileo forward. If God is the sum total of the entire universe, and present in every element of the universe, then the scientists who analyze and quantify the universe are even more familiar with the mind of God than spiritual folk.
A guy who was trained to be a minister in Sunday-keeping churches reasoned that there was not necessarily anything wrong with dressing up in costumes like biblical characters. (His older brother, who was a youth pastor, had a fake skin head with a hatchet stuck in it. He must have been dressing up like a martyr.) The guy reasoned further that there was not necessarily anything wrong with knocking on doors and asking for candy. Thus did he reason that it was okay to observe Halloween.
Many ignorant and wicked women who love to observe Halloween say that they do it “for the children.”
Ellen G. White, the false prophetess of the Seventh Day Adventist church, said that there was not necessarily anything wrong with having a fragrant evergreen tree at the front of the church with gifts to God on it. Thus did she stick the SDAs with X-mass trees and X-mass.
The COGWA splinter group can reason that it is not necessarily wrong to have a church get together at any time of the year, and especially at X-mass time when people are off work and off school, and call it a Winter Family Weekend. Who can say anything against a family custom? Thus begins COGWA's slide back into the world.
If there was “not necessarily anything wrong” with what the world was doing, then why did the WCG and its splinter groups make such a fuss about it over the years?
"If there was "not necessarily anything wrong" with what the world was doing, then why did the WCG and its splinter groups make such a fuss about it over the years?"
Uh, because they were deceived by a charlatan in most cases, but I'm sure that a certain small percentage were just naturally perverse a$$holes who were attracted to the movement because it allowed them to be their real selves.
Anonymous at 10:27 AM said...“The only prohibition is making one for the dead ... Lev 19:28 (NKJV) You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am YHVH.”
So is it okay to get a tattoo for any other reason under the sun except for the dead?
Is it okay to get a tattoo that could be passed off as for something else but that could also be for the dead too?
11:32 Thus begins COGWA's slide back into the world
I didn’t know they were ever out of it!
If there was “not necessarily anything wrong” with what the world was doing, then why did the WCG and its splinter groups make such a fuss about it over the years?
Coz they were following the opinion of one man—HWA!
So is it okay to get a tattoo for any other reason under the sun except for the dead?YES
Is it okay to get a tattoo that could be passed off as for something else but that could also be for the dead too? I'm sorry it is only you that can answer this. It has to do with your intention, and something between you and God.
Lev 19:28 describes two acts of mourning which are prohibited. I'm not aware of any other verse in Tanakh that prohibits tattoo.
Deu 4:1-2 (cf Deu 12:32; 13:1-5) “Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which YHVH God of your fathers is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of YHVH your God which I command you."
Tattoos actually aren’t very healthy for you imo as studies have detected the ink seeps into your organs over time. Only heaven knows what health impacts they have longterm too.
One verse before the tattoo quote is the infamous "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." I don't see COGlodytes upholding that either. But how did we get on this from evergreen trees? Must be Nimrod's Testicles at work again.
Imagine if you got a tattoo of the name of a loved one, and that person died. I'm pretty sure most of the ACOG leaders would go ex post facto on your butt and invoke Lev. 19:28.
If you have a tat pertaining to the Grateful Dead, does that count as having a tattoo for the dead?
I think the thing that bugs me about most people who have tattoos is that they have no artistic flair. Seems obvious that they had no master plan, and just ended up with an unsightly hodge podge. Makes you feel sorry for them as you would for a burn victim.
What if out of sheer gratitude you had gotten a tattoo that said "Jesus Saves!" I can hear it all now! Some COGmeister would lecture you that the gospel was not about the person of Jesus, but about the end of the age and the return of Jesus Christ. You'd probably be thrown out of sabbath services if you had a tattoo of a cross.
Anon 9:59pm Your scenario about the loved one is NOT a violation. You had the tattoo when the person was still alive. What 'for the dead' means is the act of mourning. That's the context.
RSK, I avoided v27 so as to limit my response to tattoo ...
Lev 19:27-28 is about what NOT to do when mourning the dead - 1] shave around the sides of your head (cf Deu 14:1-2, Amos 8:10); 2] disfigure the edges of your beard (cf Lev 21:1-5); 3] cut your flesh; 4] tattoo
Amos 8:10 I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; I will bring sackcloth on every waist, and baldness on every head; I will make it like mourning for an only son, and its end like a bitter day.
Pilgrims mourning the destruction of the temple Jer 41:5 that certain men came from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, eighty men with their beards shaved and their clothes torn, having cut themselves, with offerings and incense in their hand, to bring them to the house of the Lord.
No, trimming your beard and the hair around your ears is not the same as shaving "bald" for the dead. Those are two different actions. Bring on the Saudi vice squads to check the beard lengths.
What proof do you have that Lev 19:27 is not part of Lev 19:28? Compare Lev 19:27-28 with Lev 21:5. What did other translations use instead of 'trimming'?
Lev 19:27-28 "You shall not shave around the sides (Heb peah) of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges (Heb peah) of your beard. You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am YHVH."
Lev 21:1-4 And YHVH said to Moses, “Speak to the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say to them: None shall defile himself for the dead among his people, ... Lev 21:5 "They shall not make ANY bald place on their heads, nor shall they shave the edges (Heb peah) of their beards nor make any cuttings in their flesh."
Where did you get 'around your ears'? What translation are you using? It says 'around the sides of your head' or 'rounding the sides of head', not ears! The 'head' is from the Hebrew 'rosh' as in 'rosh hashanah', which appears only in Eze 40:1, translated beginning of the year but literally means head of the year. The Hebrew 'peah' means side or corner. It is also used in Ex 25:26; 26:18, 20 and other places.
Another forbidden mourning ritual connected with head is Deu 14:1 “You are the children of YHVH God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave the front of your head for the dead."
The phrase 'front of your head' is from the Hebrew 'ben enekem' which literally means 'between your eyes' (see KJV, New Heart, JPS 1917, ASV, Brenton, Darby, YLT, etc). Do you have hair between the eyes? Hair in front of your head is the understood meaning.
Is 'not shaving the front of your head' (Deu 14:1) different from 'not make any bald place on their head' (Lev 21:5)? Is it different from 'not shaving around the sides of your head' (Lev 19:27)? Are you thinking there are only two sides of the head, left and right, and not considering the front (side) and back (side)?
Shaving completely the head and beard (Jer 41:5) are also part of the forbidden mourning practices. In Deu 21:12-14, we are told to allow a female captive to shave her head to mourn her father and mother. Although it is forbidden, it is allowed as a sign of mercy (Deu 20:13-14).
As for the beard, notice in Lev 19:27 and Lev 21:5, the 'edges' in both are from the same Hebrew peah. The word 'disfigure' in NKJV is deface, mar, harm, mutilate, destroy, trim or clip in other translations.
2 Sam 10:1-5 It happened after this that the king of the people of Ammon died, and Hanun his son reigned in his place. Then David said, “I will show kindness to Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father showed kindness to me.” So David sent by the hand of his servants to comfort him concerning his father. And David’s servants came into the land of the people of Ammon. And the princes of the people of Ammon said to Hanun their lord, “Do you think that David really honors your father because he has sent comforters to you? Has David not rather sent his servants to you to search the city, to spy it out, and to overthrow it?” Therefore Hanun took David’s servants, shaved off half of their beards, cut off their garments in the middle, at their buttocks, and sent them away. When they told David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed. And the king said, “Wait at Jericho until your beards have grown, and then return.”
The people of Ammon thought the men of David came to spy because their beards were not 'disfigured' (mourning practice condemmed in Torah) and their clothes were not torn.
If you are still not satisfied, please explain your reasoning in more detail.
What is the entire chapter should be about? What is v26? v29? Do they have to be related to v27 and v28? Chapter and verse breaks are man-made (Stephen Langton, at least for the chapters).
The prohibition is when you do it 'for the dead' or in act of mourning.
I just want to remind you that you were the one who brought up v27. I hope that you will refrain from making fun of others who do not share your own beliefs. I don't want to turn this into a long thread of back-and-forths. Shalom
One verse before the tattoo quote is the infamous "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." I don't see COGlodytes upholding that either. But how did we get on this from evergreen trees? Must be Nimrod's Testicles at work again. December 24, 2019 at 9:15 PM
No, trimming your beard and the hair around your ears is not the same as shaving "bald" for the dead. Those are two different actions. Bring on the Saudi vice squads to check the beard lengths. December 25, 2019 at 5:53 AM
Anonymous 12/24/19 10:27 AM said... Tattoo ... Isa 44:5 (NRSV) This one will say, “I am YHVH’s,” another will be called by the name of Jacob, yet another will write on the hand, “YHVH’s,” and adopt the name of Israel.
The only prohibition is making one for the dead ... Lev 19:28 (NKJV) You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am YHVH. ----- Knowing that "hand" in the Bible can be a Hebrew euphemism for male penis (eg Is 57:8; 58:10) it was painful to read this verse and think what if it meant guys were to get their manhood inked with God's name on 'em?! Ow! Then again guys do get circumcised still so I wonder what'd be worse getting cut or getting inked or both "down there?!" :-P
Your exegesis is interesting and reading Beards, Sidelocks, and Tattoos complements what you wrote. I'd personally interpret the context of vv 27-28 to be mourning rituals for the dead as well. Leviticus 21:1-5 outlines similar prohibitions re the Levitical priesthood (cf. Ezekiel 44:20).
Yes, Nehemia Gordon is my source for the info. He also has a YT channel under his name. I've stopped giving links to Jewish sites. For many here, anything Jewish is not 'kosher'. We do ourselves disservice if we have this mentality.
I've learned a lot from him especially when I left ACOG. Being a Karaite Jew, he doesn't consider oral law as part of scriptures. His focus is what the original texts mean in light of context, culture and history. He is often invited by other christian and messianic groups because he is 'friendly' to christian doctrines. He even has discussions about the Hebrew Matthew and show how Mt 23:2-3 can be interpreted which helps Christians better understand this passage. Most of what he shares are free, you don't need to donate or buy his books.
A group of ex-WCG, iirc 5 men, even joined him in aviv barley search many years ago. Some of them, if not all, formed his own splinter groups. At least one of those 'further developed' his understanding and had a big disagreement with him a few years ago which was reported in 7th-day COG News. Nehemia stopped updating the biblical calendar on his other site and distanced himself publicly from the search. There seems to be something in WCG culture that similar behavior is seen among splinter groups.
Less than a year after I left ACOG, I left christianity, not because of the things I learned from Nehemia. I was also watching/listening to Bart Ehrman, Richard Carrier and counter-missionaries. I was so confused with all the information that I decided to just concentrate on checking the NT quotes against actual Tanakh verses. I learned very basic Hebrew and used biblehub's interlinear. I now consider myself a 'foreigner' (Isa 56:6-7).
Here’s another article that discusses the importance of men wearing beards in the Israelite/Judahite culture.
However, he also points out briefly that in the post-Babylonian culture of Judea men shaved their heads and beards besides wear sackcloth (black) when mourning (Ezra 9:3; Job 1:20, Isa 22:12, Micah 1:16, etc.). So does that mean they were in violation of the divine law or was it approved?
Someone asked Nehemia a similar question in that article (comment by Ezra Maxberry on June 25, 2018 at 2:44am). Unfortunately, there's no reply from Nehemia. The article, I think, was written in 2014 based on the earliest comment. Although the article's posted timestamp is June 30, 2019; he recycles/reposts his old articles on his home page.
Instead of commenting on the article itself, I suggest it would be better to use the 'Contact Us' page. I did this last year and got a reply from Bev who is managing the site for Nehemia. Though the question was not technical but a personal one. He also has an FB account under his name where he posts latest news including speaking engagements (the one on his website is not updated). You can try asking him on FB but I'm not sure he can reply to every question.
Here's my take on some of the verses: 1. Job 1:20 - Job predates the Torah. 2. Isa 22:12 - the chapter is prophecy about the impending destruction of Jerusalem (v1-v7). In v8a, God has removed His protection. In v8b-11, the people prepared the city. In v12, God asked the people to 'mourn' or repent. Instead of fasting and atoning for their sins, the people gorged themselves (v13). In v14, God said that because of their sin, there would no longer be atonement until they die. Isa 22:12 is not mourning for the dead, but for the city of Jerusalem. God was admonishing them to repent. 3. Mic 1:16 - the NKJV has the title 'Mourning for Israel and Judah' for v8-16. This is clear in v16b, 'For they shall go from you into captivity' speaking of the 'precious children'. Obviously, this is not mourning for the dead. 4. Ezra 9:3 - The NKJV title for chapter 9 is 'Intermarriage with Pagans'. Eze 9:3-4 'Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel assembled to me, because of the transgression of those who had been carried away captive, and I sat astonished until the evening sacrifice. At the evening sacrifice I arose from my fasting; and having torn my garment and my robe, I fell on my knees and spread out my hands to the Lord my God.' He was not mourning for the dead but fasting (read also v5-6).
Thanks 11:28AM for the time and information you've put into your response! I truly appreciate it! I've just sent Nehemia a message so hopefully he or someone associated with him will be able to clarify it further for me! I'm beginning to think, if Maxberry's correct, that everyone (excluding priests) could have any hairstyle or beard style including shaved heads or be clean shaven anytime be it during mourning or not, but specific hairstyles or beard styles were forbidden during mourning of dead people. I'll see what Nehemia says hopefully in the near future.
33 comments:
oops...
I recall hearing someone chastising another for getting a tattoo, reminding them that they should not do that because their body was the temple of the Holy Spirit etc.
The tattoed noted: "Did you ever read the description of Solomon's Temple or see the inside of an Episcopal Church? :)
Not to mention descriptions of God's Throne in Rev 4 and 15.
The Churches of God are decoration deprived. The principle of "As above so below" , given to Moses as to how the earthly temple MUST look...
Hebrews 8:5
"They serve a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle, "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."
..escapes them as Pagan, demonic and not to be toyed with. Besides, if they looked like every other church, people would go to every other church instead.
I would say that decorating Solomon's Temple as it is in heaven is completely different than a tattoo where you're changing the "decoration" as made by God. So the analogy doesn't seem to work. I see nothing wrong with tattoos though because they aren't for religious purposes as I think the markings condemned in the bible were.
My only problem would be a young woman getting a Gecko and a Butterfly, when she gets older it'll look like Godzilla fighting Mothra.
I love the smell of pine and conifers. I love the look of oak and maples and the green vibrant colors they provide in the summer and fall. Truly beautiful creations of the Sovereign Creator!
When digging at Megiddo in Israel, we took a side trip to Sepphoris which is the unspoken of city in the OT or NT, just four miles from Nazareth. The floor, uncovered in 1993, the year before my month digging there, had a huge circular Zodiac chronicling the Sun's journey through the constellations of the yearly cycle. A wonder, no doubt, to them of the day and worthy of art and awe.
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/story-jews/explore-the-diaspora/mosaic/
Yes, planted and in soil. Alive with life. Giving life to all kinds of insects and birds. Not cut down dead and shoved in the corner of a room shedding pine needles into bare feet.
334 I was just referring to the analogy of someone condemning the tattoo because the body is the Temple of the HS when the Temple was pretty darned adorned.
Dennis, you are absolutely right !
A "tramp stamp" right above a butt crack that reads "JUICY" is a good , holy , and worthwhile expression of righteousness and of the temple.
Tattoo ...
Isa 44:5 (NRSV)
This one will say, “I am YHVH’s,” another will be called by the name of Jacob, yet another will write on the hand, “YHVH’s,” and adopt the name of Israel.
The only prohibition is making one for the dead ...
Lev 19:28 (NKJV)
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am YHVH.
For all of our beliefs of what we strongly feel that we know or don't know, undoubtedly all of our concepts will be subject to change when there are no longer limitations. I'm constantly reminded of a remark that my grandmother made upon my grandfather's passing. She told me, "Bobby, he knows. We don't yet." And, that's just it. Nobody walking planet Earth today knows everything, or has 100% truth, no matter what they tell you. Scientists frequently have a better idea of what's going on than do religious teachers. We've known this from the days of Galileo forward. If God is the sum total of the entire universe, and present in every element of the universe, then the scientists who analyze and quantify the universe are even more familiar with the mind of God than spiritual folk.
BB
A guy who was trained to be a minister in Sunday-keeping churches reasoned that there was not necessarily anything wrong with dressing up in costumes like biblical characters. (His older brother, who was a youth pastor, had a fake skin head with a hatchet stuck in it. He must have been dressing up like a martyr.) The guy reasoned further that there was not necessarily anything wrong with knocking on doors and asking for candy. Thus did he reason that it was okay to observe Halloween.
Many ignorant and wicked women who love to observe Halloween say that they do it “for the children.”
Ellen G. White, the false prophetess of the Seventh Day Adventist church, said that there was not necessarily anything wrong with having a fragrant evergreen tree at the front of the church with gifts to God on it. Thus did she stick the SDAs with X-mass trees and X-mass.
The COGWA splinter group can reason that it is not necessarily wrong to have a church get together at any time of the year, and especially at X-mass time when people are off work and off school, and call it a Winter Family Weekend. Who can say anything against a family custom? Thus begins COGWA's slide back into the world.
If there was “not necessarily anything wrong” with what the world was doing, then why did the WCG and its splinter groups make such a fuss about it over the years?
It's a good thing that 11:32am knows exactly what's right and wrong, and he's not afraid to tell everyone.
"If there was "not necessarily anything wrong" with what the world was doing, then why did the WCG and its splinter groups make such a fuss about it over the years?"
Uh, because they were deceived by a charlatan in most cases, but I'm sure that a certain small percentage were just naturally perverse a$$holes who were attracted to the movement because it allowed them to be their real selves.
Anonymous at 10:27 AM said...“The only prohibition is making one for the dead ... Lev 19:28 (NKJV) You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am YHVH.”
So is it okay to get a tattoo for any other reason under the sun except for the dead?
Is it okay to get a tattoo that could be passed off as for something else but that could also be for the dead too?
I have yet to see a tramp stamp that reads "JUICY", but I'll have to take Tonto (I mean, msblueyez)'s word for it there.
11:32 Thus begins COGWA's slide back into the world
I didn’t know they were ever out of it!
If there was “not necessarily anything wrong” with what the world was doing, then why did the WCG and its splinter groups make such a fuss about it over the years?
Coz they were following the opinion of one man—HWA!
Anon 2:41pm
So is it okay to get a tattoo for any other reason under the sun except for the dead? YES
Is it okay to get a tattoo that could be passed off as for something else but that could also be for the dead too? I'm sorry it is only you that can answer this. It has to do with your intention, and something between you and God.
Lev 19:28 describes two acts of mourning which are prohibited. I'm not aware of any other verse in Tanakh that prohibits tattoo.
Deu 4:1-2 (cf Deu 12:32; 13:1-5) “Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which YHVH God of your fathers is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of YHVH your God which I command you."
Tattoos actually aren’t very healthy for you imo as studies have detected the ink seeps into your organs over time. Only heaven knows what health impacts they have longterm too.
One verse before the tattoo quote is the infamous "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." I don't see COGlodytes upholding that either. But how did we get on this from evergreen trees? Must be Nimrod's Testicles at work again.
Imagine if you got a tattoo of the name of a loved one, and that person died. I'm pretty sure most of the ACOG leaders would go ex post facto on your butt and invoke Lev. 19:28.
If you have a tat pertaining to the Grateful Dead, does that count as having a tattoo for the dead?
I think the thing that bugs me about most people who have tattoos is that they have no artistic flair. Seems obvious that they had no master plan, and just ended up with an unsightly hodge podge. Makes you feel sorry for them as you would for a burn victim.
What if out of sheer gratitude you had gotten a tattoo that said "Jesus Saves!" I can hear it all now! Some COGmeister would lecture you that the gospel was not about the person of Jesus, but about the end of the age and the return of Jesus Christ. You'd probably be thrown out of sabbath services if you had a tattoo of a cross.
Anon 9:59pm
Your scenario about the loved one is NOT a violation. You had the tattoo when the person was still alive. What 'for the dead' means is the act of mourning. That's the context.
RSK,
I avoided v27 so as to limit my response to tattoo ...
Lev 19:27-28 is about what NOT to do when mourning the dead - 1] shave around the sides of your head (cf Deu 14:1-2, Amos 8:10); 2] disfigure the edges of your beard (cf Lev 21:1-5); 3] cut your flesh; 4] tattoo
Amos 8:10 I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; I will bring sackcloth on every waist, and baldness on every head; I will make it like mourning for an only son, and its end like a bitter day.
Pilgrims mourning the destruction of the temple
Jer 41:5 that certain men came from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, eighty men with their beards shaved and their clothes torn, having cut themselves, with offerings and incense in their hand, to bring them to the house of the Lord.
No, trimming your beard and the hair around your ears is not the same as shaving "bald" for the dead. Those are two different actions. Bring on the Saudi vice squads to check the beard lengths.
RSK,
What proof do you have that Lev 19:27 is not part of Lev 19:28? Compare Lev 19:27-28 with Lev 21:5. What did other translations use instead of 'trimming'?
Lev 19:27-28 "You shall not shave around the sides (Heb peah) of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges (Heb peah) of your beard. You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am YHVH."
Lev 21:1-4 And YHVH said to Moses, “Speak to the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say to them: None shall defile himself for the dead among his people, ...
Lev 21:5 "They shall not make ANY bald place on their heads, nor shall they shave the edges (Heb peah) of their beards nor make any cuttings in their flesh."
Where did you get 'around your ears'? What translation are you using? It says 'around the sides of your head' or 'rounding the sides of head', not ears! The 'head' is from the Hebrew 'rosh' as in 'rosh hashanah', which appears only in Eze 40:1, translated beginning of the year but literally means head of the year. The Hebrew 'peah' means side or corner. It is also used in Ex 25:26; 26:18, 20 and other places.
Another forbidden mourning ritual connected with head is Deu 14:1 “You are the children of YHVH God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave the front of your head for the dead."
The phrase 'front of your head' is from the Hebrew 'ben enekem' which literally means 'between your eyes' (see KJV, New Heart, JPS 1917, ASV, Brenton, Darby, YLT, etc). Do you have hair between the eyes? Hair in front of your head is the understood meaning.
Is 'not shaving the front of your head' (Deu 14:1) different from 'not make any bald place on their head' (Lev 21:5)? Is it different from 'not shaving around the sides of your head' (Lev 19:27)? Are you thinking there are only two sides of the head, left and right, and not considering the front (side) and back (side)?
Shaving completely the head and beard (Jer 41:5) are also part of the forbidden mourning practices. In Deu 21:12-14, we are told to allow a female captive to shave her head to mourn her father and mother. Although it is forbidden, it is allowed as a sign of mercy (Deu 20:13-14).
As for the beard, notice in Lev 19:27 and Lev 21:5, the 'edges' in both are from the same Hebrew peah. The word 'disfigure' in NKJV is deface, mar, harm, mutilate, destroy, trim or clip in other translations.
2 Sam 10:1-5 It happened after this that the king of the people of Ammon died, and Hanun his son reigned in his place. Then David said, “I will show kindness to Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father showed kindness to me.” So David sent by the hand of his servants to comfort him concerning his father. And David’s servants came into the land of the people of Ammon. And the princes of the people of Ammon said to Hanun their lord, “Do you think that David really honors your father because he has sent comforters to you? Has David not rather sent his servants to you to search the city, to spy it out, and to overthrow it?” Therefore Hanun took David’s servants, shaved off half of their beards, cut off their garments in the middle, at their buttocks, and sent them away. When they told David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed. And the king said, “Wait at Jericho until your beards have grown, and then return.”
The people of Ammon thought the men of David came to spy because their beards were not 'disfigured' (mourning practice condemmed in Torah) and their clothes were not torn.
If you are still not satisfied, please explain your reasoning in more detail.
@12:23 Thank you, Mr.Malm! It's always so enlightening when you or one of your disciples arrives to perpetuate the legalism of the Old Covenant.
BB
Why would it be? Is v29 about mourning the dead too? or v26? Obviously the entire chapter is not about funerary practices.
(Ironically, in this day and age, people tend to get haircuts to attend funerals. Now isn't that just ungodly...)
What is the entire chapter should be about? What is v26? v29? Do they have to be related to v27 and v28? Chapter and verse breaks are man-made (Stephen Langton, at least for the chapters).
The prohibition is when you do it 'for the dead' or in act of mourning.
I just want to remind you that you were the one who brought up v27. I hope that you will refrain from making fun of others who do not share your own beliefs. I don't want to turn this into a long thread of back-and-forths. Shalom
One verse before the tattoo quote is the infamous "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." I don't see COGlodytes upholding that either. But how did we get on this from evergreen trees? Must be Nimrod's Testicles at work again.
December 24, 2019 at 9:15 PM
No, trimming your beard and the hair around your ears is not the same as shaving "bald" for the dead. Those are two different actions. Bring on the Saudi vice squads to check the beard lengths.
December 25, 2019 at 5:53 AM
Anonymous 12/24/19 10:27 AM said...
Tattoo ...
Isa 44:5 (NRSV)
This one will say, “I am YHVH’s,” another will be called by the name of Jacob, yet another will write on the hand, “YHVH’s,” and adopt the name of Israel.
The only prohibition is making one for the dead ...
Lev 19:28 (NKJV)
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am YHVH.
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Knowing that "hand" in the Bible can be a Hebrew euphemism for male penis (eg Is 57:8; 58:10) it was painful to read this verse and think what if it meant guys were to get their manhood inked with God's name on 'em?! Ow! Then again guys do get circumcised still so I wonder what'd be worse getting cut or getting inked or both "down there?!" :-P
10:27 5:58 11:24 12:23
Your exegesis is interesting and reading Beards, Sidelocks, and Tattoos complements what you wrote. I'd personally interpret the context of vv 27-28 to be mourning rituals for the dead as well. Leviticus 21:1-5 outlines similar prohibitions re the Levitical priesthood (cf. Ezekiel 44:20).
Yes, Nehemia Gordon is my source for the info. He also has a YT channel under his name. I've stopped giving links to Jewish sites. For many here, anything Jewish is not 'kosher'. We do ourselves disservice if we have this mentality.
I've learned a lot from him especially when I left ACOG. Being a Karaite Jew, he doesn't consider oral law as part of scriptures. His focus is what the original texts mean in light of context, culture and history. He is often invited by other christian and messianic groups because he is 'friendly' to christian doctrines. He even has discussions about the Hebrew Matthew and show how Mt 23:2-3 can be interpreted which helps Christians better understand this passage. Most of what he shares are free, you don't need to donate or buy his books.
A group of ex-WCG, iirc 5 men, even joined him in aviv barley search many years ago. Some of them, if not all, formed his own splinter groups. At least one of those 'further developed' his understanding and had a big disagreement with him a few years ago which was reported in 7th-day COG News. Nehemia stopped updating the biblical calendar on his other site and distanced himself publicly from the search. There seems to be something in WCG culture that similar behavior is seen among splinter groups.
Less than a year after I left ACOG, I left christianity, not because of the things I learned from Nehemia. I was also watching/listening to Bart Ehrman, Richard Carrier and counter-missionaries. I was so confused with all the information that I decided to just concentrate on checking the NT quotes against actual Tanakh verses. I learned very basic Hebrew and used biblehub's interlinear. I now consider myself a 'foreigner' (Isa 56:6-7).
Shalom.
12:19 PM Cheers for the info! I’ll check him out on YT. I’ve already bookmarked his website to browse further when able.
Re your reference to Isa 56:6-7–it’s actually one of my favorites! Funnily enough I consider myself both a eunuch and a foreigner!
Shabbat Shalom!
http://truthwatchers.com/710-2/
Here’s another article that discusses the importance of men wearing beards in the Israelite/Judahite culture.
However, he also points out briefly that in the post-Babylonian culture of Judea men shaved their heads and beards besides wear sackcloth (black) when mourning (Ezra 9:3; Job 1:20, Isa 22:12, Micah 1:16, etc.). So does that mean they were in violation of the divine law or was it approved?
Anon 3:34am
Someone asked Nehemia a similar question in that article (comment by Ezra Maxberry on June 25, 2018 at 2:44am). Unfortunately, there's no reply from Nehemia. The article, I think, was written in 2014 based on the earliest comment. Although the article's posted timestamp is June 30, 2019; he recycles/reposts his old articles on his home page.
Instead of commenting on the article itself, I suggest it would be better to use the 'Contact Us' page. I did this last year and got a reply from Bev who is managing the site for Nehemia. Though the question was not technical but a personal one. He also has an FB account under his name where he posts latest news including speaking engagements (the one on his website is not updated). You can try asking him on FB but I'm not sure he can reply to every question.
Here's my take on some of the verses:
1. Job 1:20 - Job predates the Torah.
2. Isa 22:12 - the chapter is prophecy about the impending destruction of Jerusalem (v1-v7). In v8a, God has removed His protection. In v8b-11, the people prepared the city. In v12, God asked the people to 'mourn' or repent. Instead of fasting and atoning for their sins, the people gorged themselves (v13). In v14, God said that because of their sin, there would no longer be atonement until they die. Isa 22:12 is not mourning for the dead, but for the city of Jerusalem. God was admonishing them to repent.
3. Mic 1:16 - the NKJV has the title 'Mourning for Israel and Judah' for v8-16. This is clear in v16b, 'For they shall go from you into captivity' speaking of the 'precious children'. Obviously, this is not mourning for the dead.
4. Ezra 9:3 - The NKJV title for chapter 9 is 'Intermarriage with Pagans'. Eze 9:3-4 'Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel assembled to me, because of the transgression of those who had been carried away captive, and I sat astonished until the evening sacrifice. At the evening sacrifice I arose from my fasting; and having torn my garment and my robe, I fell on my knees and spread out my hands to the Lord my God.' He was not mourning for the dead but fasting (read also v5-6).
Thanks 11:28AM for the time and information you've put into your response! I truly appreciate it! I've just sent Nehemia a message so hopefully he or someone associated with him will be able to clarify it further for me! I'm beginning to think, if Maxberry's correct, that everyone (excluding priests) could have any hairstyle or beard style including shaved heads or be clean shaven anytime be it during mourning or not, but specific hairstyles or beard styles were forbidden during mourning of dead people. I'll see what Nehemia says hopefully in the near future.
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