Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Uh, yeah. Good luck with that. If you believe that your minister is less cruel than the Germans, maybe the whole Petra thing still seems plausible. Unfortunately, people who filter everything through the Old Covenant will probably have no problem reinstituting stoning. Difficult choice: hung on a meathook, or stoned to death. Better off on your own.
There's a very nice hotel in modern Petra, on a hill not far from the Siq (the main entrance to the ancient city). Flurry, Weston, Kilough, Kubik, and the big guys will have comfortable air-conditioned rooms, while Thiel, Malm, Link and the other small-timers will be in caves along with the tithe-slaves.
After christs return, there will be a sitcom called something like "The boys from Petra." There will be actors portraying Kubic, Weston, Flurry, etc. And not forgetting, there will be Bob with his "I am too, I am too a prophet."
The Plain Truth about Loma Armstrong's sacred Petra doctrine in the Radio/Worldwide Church of God and the daughter harlot splinters is being exposed as a fraud at this very moment.
The Place of Safety (drum roll, please)….is in your own home/apartment as the government mandated home confinement is showing all of us. No need for ACOG ministers to lord over us threatening us with the Great Tribulation judging our zeal to determine if we are Philadelphian or Laodicean (Note: zeal is often measured by tithes and offerings). No need for clown felon tax cheat Ron Weinland. No need for cartoon Bob Thiel and his comedy animations. No need to give communist Dave Packatolla your life's savings.
If he were alive today, Gerald Waterhouse would be shocked to learn that the Place of Safety - the place of final preparation and education - is in our own homes! God can protect and provide a place of safety to anyone, anywhere and at anytime!
The "Place of Safety" is six feet under! The Philadelphians are dead, we've been Laodicean for well over a hundred years. Yes, Thiel, Flurry and Weston are all Laodicean too!
***
To Tessa, you might want to study the Passover a little more. The night that Jesus was betrayed was not the Passover. Jesus died at the correct timing, ben har arbayim. The night that we call the NTBMO is the night that Israel put the blood on their doorposts, ate the lamb, and waited for death to pass. Armstrong was wrong again, as he was 99% of the time.
Jesus said that he wouldn't eat the passover again until it was fulfilled in the Kingdom, he didn't eat it that night because the correct time to kill it was the exact time that he died.
It's not difficult to understand once one loosens the preconceived ideas.
Wasn't Flurry kicked out Jordan several years ago? Maybe he will take his bogus prayer rock and fly in his jet to Russia & Putin will put the False Prophet in a gulag.
The Place of Safety … is in your own home/apartment
Post-1972, some ministers admitted as 1972 approached they began to think the POS would be our own homes. As we know from the pastoral rant on the POS, they will have control - who goes, gets in, gets what, etc. In your own home, it's over to - although I'm sure there would be lots of rules to be obeyed!
Here's a prophecy from me. Once this COVID-19 stuff dies down larger retailers like Walmart and Costco will start to refuse cash. Credit cards only, cash is dirty. After all, one has to turn the water temperature up slowly or the frog will jump out.
Yeah, I believe all this is most likely government contrived but that's no reason to pooh pooh it.
"Time will tell" if I'm a false prophet or not. š
Once this COVID-19 stuff dies down larger retailers like Walmart and Costco will start to refuse cash.
Any refusal of cash will be driven by the banks, not by retailers. Home Depot, for instance, would collapse without cash business. If Walmart and Costco abandon cash, watch for Home Depot to expand its inventory to match that of a 7-11, and watch its profits soar.
8:21am Maybe you should read what I wrote again and as I said get rid of the preconceived ideas that you have. I never once said the Passover was on the 15th. The Passover is the killing of the lamb, not the eating of it.
Read your bible, it says that on the 14th day of the month, ben har arbayim or between the evenings the lamb is to be slain. It says nothing about when it's to be eaten other than the night after it is slain.
I find it hilarious how many still hold to the notion that HWA was right and the whole Jewish nation is wrong.
The Passover lamb was killed on the afternoon of the 14th and eaten on the evening of the 15th.
If Jesus didn't die at the exact time that God commanded the lamb to be killed then he isn't our Passover. He did! Around three o'clock on the afternoon of the 14th.
You have preconceived ideas that you refuse to consider to be wrong.
They killed the lamb late on the 14th, then ate the lamb in the beginning of the 15th. Spoiled the Egyptians the next day and left Rameses. They didn't physically leave Egypt until a week later. Symbolically they left Egypt on the evening of the 15th when the Lord smote Egypt. Physically they didn't leave until they crossed the Red Sea.
It's sad how many people remain confused by the WCG and HWA!
I seriously doubt that I'll convince you but you're wrong and the Jews are right on this one.
8:21am Have you ever considered that you might be wrong and the Jews right? They keep the Passover as best they can at the beginning of the 15th. They also were killing lambs in the temple at the exact same time Jesus was on the cross. Amazing how they can all be so wrong and Herbie so right. Not!
One thing that I can't figure out is why debit cards are preferred over credit cards. Credit cards are far safer in that it's easier to refute a charge with credit cards.
I'm sure it has to be the fact that many people aren't too bright. Pay the credit card off every month and you'll accrue no interest and if it's a cash back card you'll receive a small percentage back of the increased prices that retailers raise in order to cover credit card costs. Everyone pays that cost not just credit card users.
I seriously doubt that going "no cash" would collapse any business.
While I'm 55 I agree with the millennials that credit cards are so much easier. I put just about everything on credit cards, even if it's only a dollar. Then I pay it off every month. Which is why the last time I checked my credit score it was 830.
12:51pm Are you serious? Where did I get that idea? What a hoot!
Tell me, why did Jesus die on the 14th day of the first month? On Passover? If he could have died at any time, since you don't think the commanded time of ben har arbayim matters, why didn't he die on Atonement? Why Passover?
If Passover is significant, and I think it is, then why did Jesus die at the same time that the Jews were killing their lambs, which according to you and Herbie, and Coulter I might add, was the wrong time?
It is hilarious how many people insist that they are right and refuse to even consider an alternate view.
Twenty five years ago I was adamant too that the Passover was killed at the beginning of the 14th, but I learned to think for myself and not rely on others to do my thinking for me.
Of course the main thing is that Jesus died for our sins and the timing disagreements are irrelevant, but for discussions sake I believe you, Herbie, and Freddy are quite wrong.
Jhn 1:29 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Co 5:7 - Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
"God commanded the lamb be killed between sunset and dark on the 14th,"
Please show me the exact scripture that says between sunset and dark. There is none. It says (transliterated) between the two evenings. Ben har arbayim. It does not say between sunset and dark.
Perhaps you understand Hebrew better than the Jews do. They say Ben har arbayim means between noon and sunset.
If they were so wrong on the timing I wonder why God allowed Jesus to die at that time? Reinforcing the Jews understanding.
Was it really more important for Jesus to eat the Passover at the correct time rather than die at the correct time?
Could it be that your preconceived ideas about the last supper is wrong?
I agree with the timing of the blood on door post at beginning of the 15th and the eating of the lamb at the beginning of the 15th. The lamb was killed on the afternoon of the 14th. However, I think your timing of the spoiling of the Egyptians is wrong. Note Exodus 11:1-3. The Israelites spoiled the Egyptians before the last plague.
Anonymous said... "The night that we call the NTBMO is the night that Israel put the blood on their doorposts, ate the lamb, and waited for death to pass."
umm, no...the NTBMO (the 15th) is the night Israel left Egypt...the beginning of the 15th.
they spent the daylight hours of the 14th spoiling the Egyptians (after killing and eating the lamb during the early hours (dark) of the 14th.
so, read it again...passover is on the 14th....NTBMO is on the 15th. March 23, 2020 at 8:21 AM **********
Uh actually the NTBMO is just another title for the Passover--which night it was is moot to me since some keep the early 14th, some late 14th, some early 15th Passover--But if you look at the context of Exodus 12 it's the Passover from beginning to end and thus verse 42 is referring to the Passover. There's only one night in the whole year that God ordained as a solemn and sacred night to be much observed, which is confirmed by Christ's last supper and Paul's reference to it as the Lord's Supper--and that is the Passover night. Not the eve of the FOUB or the eve of the last day of FOUB or the eve of Pentecost or the eve of Tishri 1 or the eve of Yom Kippur or the eve of Sukkoth or the eve of the 8th day. It's the night of the Passover that He calls the Israelites to remember in perpetuity as that was the night He freed them by Egyptian bondage by His killing of the firstborn of Egypt. And now as Christians we commemorate Christ's sacrifice on that same night as He delivered us from sin and Satan and the ultimate penalty of sin, which is eternal death.
Please show me one scripture that definitively states that the last supper was the Passover.
Prior to that evening the disciples ask Christ where to prepare for the Passover, but nothing states whether the Passover was that night or the next.
Jesus states that he had desired to eat the Passover but he wouldn't until it's fulfilled in the Kingdom. There's nothing here definitively proving that he was talking about the meal they had just eaten being that Passover or the next evening being the Passover and he'd miss out on it because he'd be dead.
As I said, everyones understanding depends upon their preconceived ideas. How they were mentally conditioned to look upon the events.
I maintain that the last supper was just that, a last supper, not the Passover. Jesus was the Passover lamb. Killed at the correct time.
I know many who claim that killing the lamb any time on the 14th is between the two evenings or two sunsets but that makes no sense. Why didn't God just say kill it on the 14th? He didn't, he said kill it "ben har arbayim" between the two evenings. That had to be a specific time within the 24 hours of the 14th otherwise he'd have just said kill it on the 14th. Just as he said that Unleavened bread started on the 15th. Trumpets was on the 1st and tabernacles started on the 15th.
Notice he never said that Trumpets was the 1st, ben har arbayim.
Study the daily sacrifices, there was one in the morning and one ben har arbayim. If ben har arbayim started the day then the bible would say the daily sacrifices were at:
1. Ben har arbayim 2. In the morning
But that's not the order that God gives. He says the daily sacrifices are at:
"And now as Christians we commemorate Christ's sacrifice on that same night as He delivered us from sin and Satan and the ultimate penalty of sin, which is eternal death."
Do we?
My family for 25 years at least has taken the bread and wine as close to 3 o'clock in the afternoon on the 14th as we can and then going into the first day of unleavened bread at sunset.
If leavening at this time pictures sin, it makes no sense symbolically to partake of Christ at the beginning of the 14th, picturing the removal of sin. Then live 20 hours or so eating leavening, then go into the days of unleavened bread.
The symbolism of an early 14th Passover doesn't work and the Holy Days are pointless without the symbolism!
Taking the bread and wine at the end of the 14th, which pictures the remission of sin as Jesus said, and then going almost immediately into the seven days of refraining from sin, leavened bread, is the only thing that makes sense symbolically. Symbolically we were freed at Jesus' death, not the night before. The last supper was not the NTBMO, nor the Passover.
Twenty years and you haven't learned a thing. That 300 page book that you have from Coulter would be better used as a doorstop.
You probably agree with Coulter that the coming of the quail prove a beginning of the 14th Passover. That theory is so full of assumptions it's hilarious.
Coulter assumes that the first time that God sent manna that he sent it for six consecutive days. He thinks that proves the day that God instructed them was the sabbath and the quail came after the sabbath, since it says the quail came ben har arbayim. He believes that proves a between sunset and dark Passover. That's a total assumption.
The facts are that God names the days by their number, the sixth day is always the day before the sabbath. Just how does Coulter know that the day that God gave them the instructions and sent the quail that it wasn't the third day of the week? God said to gather every day and to gather double on the sixth day. That doesn't necessarily mean that they gathered six consecutive days. So what if they were instructed on the third day and the quail came at the end of that third day before sunset at ben har arbayim and then they gathered manna in the morning on the fourth day, the fifth day and then double on the sixth day? Technically they would have only gathered three days that week and it was a double portion on the sixth day of the week. A full six days of gathering is not necessary to fit the context therefore Coulter's argument is pure assumption.
There is absolutely nothing in the text that tells us which day it was that God gave them the instructions on how to gather or which day the quail came.
The bible does however clearly tell us when the daily offerings were to be given and just as my 5:03am post says, the ben har arbayim sacrifice came at the end of the day.
Thankfully, a New Covenant Christian is not bound by this legalistic mumbo jumbo. Salvation has been assured, darkness conquered and Armstrongism has been vanquished. The shadows have been illuminated and hidden by the Light of Christ.
Might as well throw Phillipians out too since "Salvation has been assured".
Phl 2:12 - Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
km said: "There is absolutely nothing in the text that tells us which day it was that God gave them the instructions on how to gather or which day the quail came."
To bolster km's argument, the instruction in v26 "Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none." was given by Moses AFTER entire Friday-Sabbath-first manna incident. There was no indication of 6 days of manna-gathering after the quail.
Ntbo and Passover are the same night the 14th. Christ kept the Passover - he fulfilled all righteousness - on the evening of the 14th. There is no reason to assume that Christ had to die at the same time as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered he was killed in the daytime portion of the 14th.
Exactly LCG, thanks for your contribution to the subject.
The quail is Fred Coulter's number one "proof" (supposed proof that is) of his beginning of the 14th Passover, and as I said it's full of holes. Full of assumptions. Just as it's a total assumption that the meal which Jesus ate on the night of his betrayal was the Passover. So many people practically worship their preconceived ideas, unwilling to consider a different explanation.
As I said, over 25 years ago I was getting Coulter's material. I agreed with him on the subject until I started really thinking about it for myself. Since then we've kept an end of the 14th Passover. Not a 15th as many early 14th people like to mockingly call it.
I know many pooh-pooh the very idea of a seven thousand year plan but symbolically it fits so perfectly.
The lamb was to be selected on the 10th, Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He was selected before the seven day/thousand year plan began.
Consider the week that Jesus died. I know there's disagreement on whether he died on Wednesday or Friday, I'm not going there. Let's just assume the cog Wednesday crucifixion is correct.
The tenth day of the month would have been on the sabbath that year when the lamb was selected. Four days later, on the 14th, Wednesday, Jesus died.
Why did God wait four thousand years to send Jesus? If he did, I'm not arguing one way or the other so I don't want to get into a debate on this I'm just presenting a scenario.
Symbolically the tenth day would picture eternity past when Jesus was selected to be the lamb. Four thousand years later, towards the end of that fourth millenia Jesus came to earth and was killed. Just as he was killed at the end of the fourth day of the week. Then two thousand years elapse and then comes the millennial sabbath.
Three days after he dies he was resurrected, which pictures eternity future, after the final millennial sabbath when God's plan is finished.
If God is removing sin from us, the Passover and days of unleavened bread perfectly picture that. A couple hours before unleavened bread begins Jesus dies freeing us from our sinful past, picturing the lamb slain before the seven thousand year plan even began. Then God gives mankind seven thousand years to refrain from sin. This is the seven days of unleavened bread. An end of the 14th Passover fits this perfectly. A beginning of the 14th Passover does not.
With a beginning of the 14th one takes the bread and wine picturing the remission of sin, as Jesus said, then waits twenty or so hours before going into the days which picture us refraining from sin.
An end of the 14th Passover has us going into the seven days of refraining from sin immediately after eating the bread and wine for the remission of sins.
The COG has always deleted a vital part of Passover… the bitter herbs. They shall eat the flesh that same night; they shall eat it roasted over the fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs.
Wild lettuce was probably one of the original bitter herbs used by the Hebrews in the Passover meal. Native to the Mediterranean region. The dreamy effects are a little bit similar to opium, but milder . I noted decades ago the Hebrews really knew how to exude radiant joy on the Holy Days. Whereas COG members refused even a lemon branch at Tabernacles. Yet they bragged incessantly of their superior spirituality. They should have sucked a lemon.
As of yet no one has given a scripture that definitely says that Christ kept the Passover on the night that he was betrayed.
They use the scriptures where the disciples ask where he wants to keep/prepare for the Passover, but that's not definitive.
They use the scripture where Christ says that he had desired to eat the Passover but again that is not definitive.
Where is the scripture that says that Jesus kept the Passover that night?
Paul doesn't even say it was the Passover. He says it was the night that Christ was betrayed.
1Co 11:23 - For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
Why doesn't Paul just say, "On the night that our Lord ate the Passover"? He doesn't. Why? Probably because it wasn't! It was the night that he was betrayed, that's it.
HWA is the one who placed the preconceived idea into the minds of people that this night was the Passover. Nowhere does the bible say this.
If you haven't really sat down and studied it then all you're doing is still following a man.
Mar 14:14 - And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Where it seems like Jesus says that he definitely will eat the Passover, consider this.
The Greek word for the phrase "I shall eat" is in the subjunctive mood.
Here's what the Blueletterbible says when parsing this word 'phago'. Here's what it says about the subjunctive mood.
Subjunctive
Is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."
If Jesus was saying that he was going to definitely eat the Passover then that word would have been in the Indicative mood.
This confirms His statement that he had desired to eat the Passover, but he knew that he might not be able to.
I understand that all this seems confusing, I've been studying this for over 25 years. I know it's easier just to do what we've always done in the past, but once the information is given wouldn't it be advisable to at least study it?
As I said, there is absolutely no scripture in the bible that definitively states that Jesus ate the Passover that night.
shall -- (CW)This helping verb "shall" does not indicate the future tense, but that the following verb describes a possibility, the subjunctive voice. A "might" or "should" in English is more appropriate, but is assumed in an "if" or "when" clause. Helping verbs are not needed in Greek since the main verb carries this information in its form.
For anyone thinking that it doesn't make sense for Jesus to not know for sure whether he was going to eat the Passover or not consider this. After the last supper Jesus went out to pray:
Mat 26:39 - And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Jesus was hoping that God would find another way. If God did then he would have been able to eat the Passover at the correct time, after it was slain at the end of the 14th.
Since he was symbolically the Passover he knew that if God didn't find another way then there'd be no way for him to eat the Passover.
That's why the word eat in Mark 14:14 is in the subjunctive mood and not the indicative.
I've been trying for the last 25 years to convince friends in the acogs about the self righteousness of vacuuming crumbs. At first they balk at the notion, then some slowly get it. Now it seems that others are even a little slower, but at least they're finally getting it.
48 comments:
Uh, yeah. Good luck with that. If you believe that your minister is less cruel than the Germans, maybe the whole Petra thing still seems plausible. Unfortunately, people who filter everything through the Old Covenant will probably have no problem reinstituting stoning. Difficult choice: hung on a meathook, or stoned to death. Better off on your own.
BB
Don't be silly. Haven't you ever been to Petra?
There's a very nice hotel in modern Petra, on a hill not far from the Siq (the main entrance to the ancient city). Flurry, Weston, Kilough, Kubik, and the big guys will have comfortable air-conditioned rooms, while Thiel, Malm, Link and the other small-timers will be in caves along with the tithe-slaves.
You forgot Weston Gary, the LCG still teaches the foolish place of safety.
km
If I was in one of the scary COG cults like Flurry, Pack, Weinland, Malm, Thiel, etc. I would be PETRIFIED of going to PETRA!
After christs return, there will be a sitcom called something like "The boys from Petra." There will be actors portraying Kubic, Weston, Flurry, etc. And not forgetting, there will be Bob with his "I am too, I am too a prophet."
The Plain Truth about Loma Armstrong's sacred Petra doctrine in the Radio/Worldwide Church of God and the daughter harlot splinters is being exposed as a fraud at this very moment.
The Place of Safety (drum roll, please)….is in your own home/apartment as the government mandated home confinement is showing all of us. No need for ACOG ministers to lord over us threatening us with the Great Tribulation judging our zeal to determine if we are Philadelphian or Laodicean (Note: zeal is often measured by tithes and offerings). No need for clown felon tax cheat Ron Weinland. No need for cartoon Bob Thiel and his comedy animations. No need to give communist Dave Packatolla your life's savings.
If he were alive today, Gerald Waterhouse would be shocked to learn that the Place of Safety - the place of final preparation and education - is in our own homes! God can protect and provide a place of safety to anyone, anywhere and at anytime!
Richard
Five-star hotels for the self-appointed big shots while they are away from their cult compounds. Private jets and limousines for transportation.
Caves for the lucky little sheeple. Culverts, ditches, and park benches for the unlucky ones. Good leg exercise for transportation.
Richard
Gerald Waterhouse would make his Place of Safety a gay bar.
The "Place of Safety" is six feet under! The Philadelphians are dead, we've been Laodicean for well over a hundred years. Yes, Thiel, Flurry and Weston are all Laodicean too!
***
To Tessa, you might want to study the Passover a little more. The night that Jesus was betrayed was not the Passover. Jesus died at the correct timing, ben har arbayim. The night that we call the NTBMO is the night that Israel put the blood on their doorposts, ate the lamb, and waited for death to pass. Armstrong was wrong again, as he was 99% of the time.
Jesus said that he wouldn't eat the passover again until it was fulfilled in the Kingdom, he didn't eat it that night because the correct time to kill it was the exact time that he died.
It's not difficult to understand once one loosens the preconceived ideas.
km
Wasn't Flurry kicked out Jordan several years ago? Maybe he will take his bogus prayer rock and fly in his jet to Russia & Putin will put the False Prophet in a gulag.
The Place of Safety … is in your own home/apartment
Post-1972, some ministers admitted as 1972 approached they began to think the POS would be our own homes.
As we know from the pastoral rant on the POS, they will have control - who goes, gets in, gets what, etc. In your own home, it's over to - although I'm sure there would be lots of rules to be obeyed!
Here's a prophecy from me. Once this COVID-19 stuff dies down larger retailers like Walmart and Costco will start to refuse cash. Credit cards only, cash is dirty. After all, one has to turn the water temperature up slowly or the frog will jump out.
Yeah, I believe all this is most likely government contrived but that's no reason to pooh pooh it.
"Time will tell" if I'm a false prophet or not. š
km
"The night that we call the NTBMO is the night that Israel put the blood on their doorposts, ate the lamb, and waited for death to pass."
umm, no...the NTBMO (the 15th) is the night Israel left Egypt...the beginning of the 15th.
they spent the daylight hours of the 14th spoiling the Egyptians (after killing and eating the lamb during the early hours (dark) of the 14th.
so, read it again...passover is on the 14th....NTBMO is on the 15th.
Once this COVID-19 stuff dies down larger retailers like Walmart and Costco will start to refuse cash.
Any refusal of cash will be driven by the banks, not by retailers. Home Depot, for instance, would collapse without cash business. If Walmart and Costco abandon cash, watch for Home Depot to expand its inventory to match that of a 7-11, and watch its profits soar.
8:21am Maybe you should read what I wrote again and as I said get rid of the preconceived ideas that you have. I never once said the Passover was on the 15th. The Passover is the killing of the lamb, not the eating of it.
Read your bible, it says that on the 14th day of the month, ben har arbayim or between the evenings the lamb is to be slain. It says nothing about when it's to be eaten other than the night after it is slain.
I find it hilarious how many still hold to the notion that HWA was right and the whole Jewish nation is wrong.
The Passover lamb was killed on the afternoon of the 14th and eaten on the evening of the 15th.
If Jesus didn't die at the exact time that God commanded the lamb to be killed then he isn't our Passover. He did! Around three o'clock on the afternoon of the 14th.
You have preconceived ideas that you refuse to consider to be wrong.
They killed the lamb late on the 14th, then ate the lamb in the beginning of the 15th. Spoiled the Egyptians the next day and left Rameses. They didn't physically leave Egypt until a week later. Symbolically they left Egypt on the evening of the 15th when the Lord smote Egypt. Physically they didn't leave until they crossed the Red Sea.
It's sad how many people remain confused by the WCG and HWA!
I seriously doubt that I'll convince you but you're wrong and the Jews are right on this one.
km
8:21am Have you ever considered that you might be wrong and the Jews right? They keep the Passover as best they can at the beginning of the 15th. They also were killing lambs in the temple at the exact same time Jesus was on the cross. Amazing how they can all be so wrong and Herbie so right. Not!
8:44am Why would any business collapse without cash? Most people pay with credit cards nowadays anyway. Your logic is illogical.
Only 14% of consumers use cash.
https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/payment-method-statistics-1276.php
One thing that I can't figure out is why debit cards are preferred over credit cards. Credit cards are far safer in that it's easier to refute a charge with credit cards.
I'm sure it has to be the fact that many people aren't too bright. Pay the credit card off every month and you'll accrue no interest and if it's a cash back card you'll receive a small percentage back of the increased prices that retailers raise in order to cover credit card costs. Everyone pays that cost not just credit card users.
I seriously doubt that going "no cash" would collapse any business.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/15/more-americans-say-they-dont-carry-cash.html
While I'm 55 I agree with the millennials that credit cards are so much easier. I put just about everything on credit cards, even if it's only a dollar. Then I pay it off every month. Which is why the last time I checked my credit score it was 830.
km
"The Passover lamb was killed on the afternoon of the 14th and eaten on the evening of the 15th."
that was the practice of the jews of the day, but that doesn't mean it's correct.
Christ kept the passover on the evening of the 14th...the same time the Israelites did...(as they were instructed by Him)
the 15th is when they left Egypt....there could be no eating of the lamb then.
"If Jesus didn't die at the exact time that God commanded the lamb to be killed then he isn't our Passover."
where did you get that idea?
God commanded the lamb be killed between sunset and dark on the 14th, cooked and eaten that night... what's so complicated about it?
12:51pm Are you serious? Where did I get that idea? What a hoot!
Tell me, why did Jesus die on the 14th day of the first month? On Passover? If he could have died at any time, since you don't think the commanded time of ben har arbayim matters, why didn't he die on Atonement? Why Passover?
If Passover is significant, and I think it is, then why did Jesus die at the same time that the Jews were killing their lambs, which according to you and Herbie, and Coulter I might add, was the wrong time?
It is hilarious how many people insist that they are right and refuse to even consider an alternate view.
Twenty five years ago I was adamant too that the Passover was killed at the beginning of the 14th, but I learned to think for myself and not rely on others to do my thinking for me.
Of course the main thing is that Jesus died for our sins and the timing disagreements are irrelevant, but for discussions sake I believe you, Herbie, and Freddy are quite wrong.
km
Where did I get that idea?
Jhn 1:29 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Co 5:7 - Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Wow!!
km
"God commanded the lamb be killed between sunset and dark on the 14th,"
Please show me the exact scripture that says between sunset and dark. There is none. It says (transliterated) between the two evenings. Ben har arbayim. It does not say between sunset and dark.
Perhaps you understand Hebrew better than the Jews do. They say Ben har arbayim means between noon and sunset.
If they were so wrong on the timing I wonder why God allowed Jesus to die at that time? Reinforcing the Jews understanding.
Was it really more important for Jesus to eat the Passover at the correct time rather than die at the correct time?
Could it be that your preconceived ideas about the last supper is wrong?
Are you even willing to contemplate being wrong?
I agree with the timing of the blood on door post at beginning of the 15th and the eating of the lamb at the beginning of the 15th. The lamb was killed on the afternoon of the 14th. However, I think your timing of the spoiling of the Egyptians is wrong. Note Exodus 11:1-3. The Israelites spoiled the Egyptians before the last plague.
Anonymous said...
"The night that we call the NTBMO is the night that Israel put the blood on their doorposts, ate the lamb, and waited for death to pass."
umm, no...the NTBMO (the 15th) is the night Israel left Egypt...the beginning of the 15th.
they spent the daylight hours of the 14th spoiling the Egyptians (after killing and eating the lamb during the early hours (dark) of the 14th.
so, read it again...passover is on the 14th....NTBMO is on the 15th.
March 23, 2020 at 8:21 AM
**********
Uh actually the NTBMO is just another title for the Passover--which night it was is moot to me since some keep the early 14th, some late 14th, some early 15th Passover--But if you look at the context of Exodus 12 it's the Passover from beginning to end and thus verse 42 is referring to the Passover. There's only one night in the whole year that God ordained as a solemn and sacred night to be much observed, which is confirmed by Christ's last supper and Paul's reference to it as the Lord's Supper--and that is the Passover night. Not the eve of the FOUB or the eve of the last day of FOUB or the eve of Pentecost or the eve of Tishri 1 or the eve of Yom Kippur or the eve of Sukkoth or the eve of the 8th day. It's the night of the Passover that He calls the Israelites to remember in perpetuity as that was the night He freed them by Egyptian bondage by His killing of the firstborn of Egypt. And now as Christians we commemorate Christ's sacrifice on that same night as He delivered us from sin and Satan and the ultimate penalty of sin, which is eternal death.
Please show me one scripture that definitively states that the last supper was the Passover.
Prior to that evening the disciples ask Christ where to prepare for the Passover, but nothing states whether the Passover was that night or the next.
Jesus states that he had desired to eat the Passover but he wouldn't until it's fulfilled in the Kingdom. There's nothing here definitively proving that he was talking about the meal they had just eaten being that Passover or the next evening being the Passover and he'd miss out on it because he'd be dead.
As I said, everyones understanding depends upon their preconceived ideas. How they were mentally conditioned to look upon the events.
I maintain that the last supper was just that, a last supper, not the Passover. Jesus was the Passover lamb. Killed at the correct time.
I know many who claim that killing the lamb any time on the 14th is between the two evenings or two sunsets but that makes no sense. Why didn't God just say kill it on the 14th? He didn't, he said kill it "ben har arbayim" between the two evenings. That had to be a specific time within the 24 hours of the 14th otherwise he'd have just said kill it on the 14th. Just as he said that Unleavened bread started on the 15th. Trumpets was on the 1st and tabernacles started on the 15th.
Notice he never said that Trumpets was the 1st, ben har arbayim.
Study the daily sacrifices, there was one in the morning and one ben har arbayim. If ben har arbayim started the day then the bible would say the daily sacrifices were at:
1. Ben har arbayim
2. In the morning
But that's not the order that God gives. He says the daily sacrifices are at:
1. Morning
2. Ben har arbayim
Your preconceived ideas cause you to err.
km
"And now as Christians we commemorate Christ's sacrifice on that same night as He delivered us from sin and Satan and the ultimate penalty of sin, which is eternal death."
Do we?
My family for 25 years at least has taken the bread and wine as close to 3 o'clock in the afternoon on the 14th as we can and then going into the first day of unleavened bread at sunset.
If leavening at this time pictures sin, it makes no sense symbolically to partake of Christ at the beginning of the 14th, picturing the removal of sin. Then live 20 hours or so eating leavening, then go into the days of unleavened bread.
The symbolism of an early 14th Passover doesn't work and the Holy Days are pointless without the symbolism!
Taking the bread and wine at the end of the 14th, which pictures the remission of sin as Jesus said, and then going almost immediately into the seven days of refraining from sin, leavened bread, is the only thing that makes sense symbolically. Symbolically we were freed at Jesus' death, not the night before. The last supper was not the NTBMO, nor the Passover.
To each his own though.
km
reminds me of a discussion I had some 20+ years ago with a Dankinbring follower....
Twenty years and you haven't learned a thing. That 300 page book that you have from Coulter would be better used as a doorstop.
You probably agree with Coulter that the coming of the quail prove a beginning of the 14th Passover. That theory is so full of assumptions it's hilarious.
Coulter assumes that the first time that God sent manna that he sent it for six consecutive days. He thinks that proves the day that God instructed them was the sabbath and the quail came after the sabbath, since it says the quail came ben har arbayim. He believes that proves a between sunset and dark Passover. That's a total assumption.
The facts are that God names the days by their number, the sixth day is always the day before the sabbath. Just how does Coulter know that the day that God gave them the instructions and sent the quail that it wasn't the third day of the week? God said to gather every day and to gather double on the sixth day. That doesn't necessarily mean that they gathered six consecutive days. So what if they were instructed on the third day and the quail came at the end of that third day before sunset at ben har arbayim and then they gathered manna in the morning on the fourth day, the fifth day and then double on the sixth day? Technically they would have only gathered three days that week and it was a double portion on the sixth day of the week. A full six days of gathering is not necessary to fit the context therefore Coulter's argument is pure assumption.
There is absolutely nothing in the text that tells us which day it was that God gave them the instructions on how to gather or which day the quail came.
The bible does however clearly tell us when the daily offerings were to be given and just as my 5:03am post says, the ben har arbayim sacrifice came at the end of the day.
km
Thankfully, a New Covenant Christian is not bound by this legalistic mumbo jumbo. Salvation has been assured, darkness conquered and Armstrongism has been vanquished. The shadows have been illuminated and hidden by the Light of Christ.
11:06am One of these days we'll find out if you are correct or not. Don't assume.
Heb 4:11 - Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:1 - Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 3:13 - But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
km
I know, I know, let's just throw the book of Hebrews out along with James.
If they don't match our theology they must be wrong and not our theology!
Might as well throw Phillipians out too since "Salvation has been assured".
Phl 2:12 - Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Tit 1:16 - They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Works=Greek-ergon
Same exact word that is used in Eph. 2:9
Eph 2:9 - Not of works, lest any man should boast.
and throughout Romans, Galatians and Ephesians.
Works are important, but not for earning salvation.
Eph 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
km said: "There is absolutely nothing in the text that tells us which day it was that God gave them the instructions on how to gather or which day the quail came."
To bolster km's argument, the instruction in v26 "Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none." was given by Moses AFTER entire Friday-Sabbath-first manna incident. There was no indication of 6 days of manna-gathering after the quail.
Ntbo and Passover are the same night the 14th. Christ kept the Passover - he fulfilled all righteousness - on the evening of the 14th.
There is no reason to assume that Christ had to die at the same time as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered he was killed in the daytime portion of the 14th.
Exactly LCG, thanks for your contribution to the subject.
The quail is Fred Coulter's number one "proof" (supposed proof that is) of his beginning of the 14th Passover, and as I said it's full of holes. Full of assumptions. Just as it's a total assumption that the meal which Jesus ate on the night of his betrayal was the Passover. So many people practically worship their preconceived ideas, unwilling to consider a different explanation.
As I said, over 25 years ago I was getting Coulter's material. I agreed with him on the subject until I started really thinking about it for myself. Since then we've kept an end of the 14th Passover. Not a 15th as many early 14th people like to mockingly call it.
I know many pooh-pooh the very idea of a seven thousand year plan but symbolically it fits so perfectly.
The lamb was to be selected on the 10th, Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He was selected before the seven day/thousand year plan began.
Consider the week that Jesus died. I know there's disagreement on whether he died on Wednesday or Friday, I'm not going there. Let's just assume the cog Wednesday crucifixion is correct.
The tenth day of the month would have been on the sabbath that year when the lamb was selected. Four days later, on the 14th, Wednesday, Jesus died.
Why did God wait four thousand years to send Jesus? If he did, I'm not arguing one way or the other so I don't want to get into a debate on this I'm just presenting a scenario.
Symbolically the tenth day would picture eternity past when Jesus was selected to be the lamb. Four thousand years later, towards the end of that fourth millenia Jesus came to earth and was killed. Just as he was killed at the end of the fourth day of the week. Then two thousand years elapse and then comes the millennial sabbath.
Three days after he dies he was resurrected, which pictures eternity future, after the final millennial sabbath when God's plan is finished.
If God is removing sin from us, the Passover and days of unleavened bread perfectly picture that. A couple hours before unleavened bread begins Jesus dies freeing us from our sinful past, picturing the lamb slain before the seven thousand year plan even began. Then God gives mankind seven thousand years to refrain from sin. This is the seven days of unleavened bread. An end of the 14th Passover fits this perfectly. A beginning of the 14th Passover does not.
With a beginning of the 14th one takes the bread and wine picturing the remission of sin, as Jesus said, then waits twenty or so hours before going into the days which picture us refraining from sin.
An end of the 14th Passover has us going into the seven days of refraining from sin immediately after eating the bread and wine for the remission of sins.
I think it makes perfect sense.
km
The COG has always deleted a vital part of Passover… the bitter herbs.
They shall eat the flesh that same night; they shall eat it roasted over the fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs.
Wild lettuce was probably one of the original bitter herbs used by the Hebrews in the Passover meal. Native to the Mediterranean region. The dreamy effects are a little bit similar to opium, but milder
.
I noted decades ago the Hebrews really knew how to exude radiant joy on the Holy Days. Whereas COG members refused even a lemon branch at Tabernacles. Yet they bragged incessantly of their superior spirituality. They should have sucked a lemon.
Tessa. I guess it didn't matter when the Exodus Passover lamb was killed then.
I completely disagree with you. God gave a specific time that the lamb had to be killed. Ben har arbayim.
km
As of yet no one has given a scripture that definitely says that Christ kept the Passover on the night that he was betrayed.
They use the scriptures where the disciples ask where he wants to keep/prepare for the Passover, but that's not definitive.
They use the scripture where Christ says that he had desired to eat the Passover but again that is not definitive.
Where is the scripture that says that Jesus kept the Passover that night?
Paul doesn't even say it was the Passover. He says it was the night that Christ was betrayed.
1Co 11:23 - For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
Why doesn't Paul just say, "On the night that our Lord ate the Passover"? He doesn't. Why? Probably because it wasn't! It was the night that he was betrayed, that's it.
HWA is the one who placed the preconceived idea into the minds of people that this night was the Passover. Nowhere does the bible say this.
If you haven't really sat down and studied it then all you're doing is still following a man.
km
Also, before someone mentions scriptures such as:
Mar 14:14 - And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Where it seems like Jesus says that he definitely will eat the Passover, consider this.
The Greek word for the phrase "I shall eat" is in the subjunctive mood.
Here's what the Blueletterbible says when parsing this word 'phago'. Here's what it says about the subjunctive mood.
Subjunctive
Is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."
If Jesus was saying that he was going to definitely eat the Passover then that word would have been in the Indicative mood.
This confirms His statement that he had desired to eat the Passover, but he knew that he might not be able to.
I understand that all this seems confusing, I've been studying this for over 25 years. I know it's easier just to do what we've always done in the past, but once the information is given wouldn't it be advisable to at least study it?
As I said, there is absolutely no scripture in the bible that definitively states that Jesus ate the Passover that night.
km
At least the NIV and other scriptures get Mark14:14 a little more accurate than the KJV.
Mark 14:14 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?'
They use the word "may" rather than "I shall". This is because, as I said earlier, the word is in the subjunctive mood.
Consider what this web site has to say about the word shall in the KJV of Mark 14:14:
https://www.christswords.com/content/mark-1414-and-wheresoever-he-shall-go-say-ye-goodman-house
shall -- (CW)This helping verb "shall" does not indicate the future tense, but that the following verb describes a possibility, the subjunctive voice. A "might" or "should" in English is more appropriate, but is assumed in an "if" or "when" clause. Helping verbs are not needed in Greek since the main verb carries this information in its form.
km
For anyone thinking that it doesn't make sense for Jesus to not know for sure whether he was going to eat the Passover or not consider this. After the last supper Jesus went out to pray:
Mat 26:39 - And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Jesus was hoping that God would find another way. If God did then he would have been able to eat the Passover at the correct time, after it was slain at the end of the 14th.
Since he was symbolically the Passover he knew that if God didn't find another way then there'd be no way for him to eat the Passover.
That's why the word eat in Mark 14:14 is in the subjunctive mood and not the indicative.
A little lesson on the subjunctive mood in Koine Greek. fwiw
http://wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Koine_Greek:_Verbs_-_Subjunctive
km
I'm just wondering how many that still keep the days of unleavened bread feel it necessary to vacuum out every little crumb that they can?
Another tradition of man!
km
Others are becoming aware that every crumb doesn't need vacuumed up. And no one will be licking up crumbs between seat cushions.
I've been trying for the last 25 years to convince friends in the acogs about the self righteousness of vacuuming crumbs. At first they balk at the notion, then some slowly get it. Now it seems that others are even a little slower, but at least they're finally getting it.
km
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