The Church of God International's Messaging Problem
Over the years since leaving CGI, I have watched the evolution of that organization with fascination. For those who are unfamiliar with this history, CGI began as a reaction to the autocratic and intellectually stagnant atmosphere within the now-defunct Worldwide Church of God. Unfortunately, one of the "founding fathers" of the organization was the morally flawed son (Garner Ted Armstrong) of the autocrat (Herbert W Armstrong) who ruled over the parent organization. Eventually, the moral failings of GTA became so egregious that some folks abandoned CGI (like Ron Dart) while others (like my own father) forced GTA out of the organization and attempted to institute a more spiritual and democratic direction for their organization. It is as they say, however, good intentions so often go astray.
Like many of the other organizations which descended from Herbert's Worldwide Church, CGI began as a mix of true believers who sought to perpetuate the "core" doctrines of Armstrongism and those who recognized that there were real problems with some of the teachings of the parent organization. Over the years that followed those major disruptions within the organization caused by GTA's indiscretions, these two groups grew further and further apart. Unfortunately, the conservative forces within the church (those loyal to Armstrongism) came to be led by Pastor Bill Watson of Ohio. The reformers, on the other hand, were represented by men like Charles Groce, Vance Stinson, and (more recently) Jeff Reed. The illusion of unanimity between the two groups has been preserved by the desire of the men in both camps not to further dilute the already diminished resources and reach of the organization. Both sides recognized that a rupture between them would effectively destroy the ability of the church to promulgate its message to a wider audience.
More recently, this uneasy truce between the two camps has been sorely tested by the radicalization and extreme polarization of American society at large. In short, the larger tensions between liberals and conservatives within the United States have exacerbated tensions between the two camps within CGI. Indeed, the same denigration of the motives, morals, and intellectual capacity of the other side which has characterized the larger society has excited those same kinds of recriminations within the church. The reform camp sees the other side as stubborn reactionaries that are preventing the church from reaching a wider audience. Likewise, the Bill Watson camp sees the other side as being caught up in the same deception and wickedness that is afflicting the larger culture and views them as an obstacle to getting out their message of warning.
Of course, for CGI, this tension is further underscored and exacerbated by the fundamental differences in the way the two camps react to those "core doctrines" of Armstrongism. Watson (and most of his supporters) still embraces Anglo-Israelism and its attendant notion that the church's primary mission is to proclaim a warning to the "nations of Israel" (chiefly the English-speaking peoples of the earth). Hence, for these folks, the message of the church should be one of warning against the evils of socialism, homosexuality, globalism, gender identity, abortion, immigration, etc. In other words, the culture war on steroids! Most of the reformers, however, reject the teaching of Anglo-Israelism and believe that the church's messaging should be focused on the commission to preach the gospel which God gave to his disciples. For the Watson camp, the thirty-third chapter of Ezekiel is paramount. For the Groce/Stinson/Reed camp, the twenty-eighth chapter of Matthew is supreme. Sure, both camps claim that their objective is to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to the world. Nevertheless, we can see that their respective understandings of what that encompasses are fundamentally different.
How have both sides handled this dilemma? Heretofore, the reformers have told themselves that the conservatives are simply stuck in the past and haven't seen the light yet. They pride themselves on being inclusive and not censoring the messaging of the conservatives with which they disagree. The conservatives, on the other hand, feel like they are being stifled and censored! They feel like the impact of their messaging has been thwarted and diluted by the reformers. Of course, for those of us on the outside, it just appears that this organization is speaking out of both sides of its mouth. The messaging is mixed, and both sides have only succeeded in engendering a great deal of cognitive dissonance in their audience!
Addendum:
More particularly, he addressed just how divisive the issue of mRNA Covid-19 vaccinations has been within the church. In fact, Mr. Stinson pointed out the specific post by Jeff Reed (which referred to the widespread misinformation about the vaccines within America and called them a blessing) that this blogger had previously called attention to as causing so much discord within the church (and within my own family). According to Mr. Stinson, the issue has proven to be so divisive that the Executive Council of the Church has made the decision to not allow ANY further posts regarding Covid-19 mRNA vaccination (anti or pro) on their organization's website.
As I suggested in the above post, Mr. Stinson claims that this step has been taken to avoid dissension and promote unity within their church culture. However, while he insisted that this did not amount to censorship because it would apply equally to both sides, he repeatedly stressed that nothing further would be allowed to be posted on the subject.
Mr. Stinson went on to suggest that there was a strong biblical principle upon which the Executive Council's decision was based: That the shepherds of the flock have a responsibility to forgo their rights to express their own opinions on subjects for the sake of the flock. According to him, the primary responsibility of the shepherds is to promote unity and harmony within the church. In adopting this position, he comes very close to the point which I was originally trying to make with regard to these kinds of issues - that ministers of Jesus Christ had absolutely NO business wading into controversial political and cultural issues.
However, Mr. Stinson failed to address a minister's responsibility to protect his flock from harm and to tell the truth. Moreover, it hardly seems even-handed and fair to this observer to allow all of the many ridiculous statements about social distancing, masking, and vaccinations that had provoked Mr. Reed's post in the first place to stand (remain posted as part of the sermon archive). In other words, in this instance, it appears that those who have made the most noise have prevailed (irrespective of the merits of their objections or the truthfulness of their messaging). And, I'm betting that the Executive Council's decision will NOT satisfy folks in either camp. As John likes to say, time will tell.
Lonnie Hendrix
59 comments:
Matthew 12:45 " and he goes and takes with him seven spirits more wicked than himself.."
So it seems that the tension between "conservatives" and "reformers" even exists in the demonic realm.
If people truly followed Christ, such schisms would not exist.
The COG has always played the painted whore to certain political parties even while belching they don’t get involved in politics. They have become nothing but shills for those political parties.
9:57 said "If people truly followed Christ, such schisms would not exist."
You're kidding yourself. Truly following Christ means different things to different folk and thus division is built into Christianity. Just the word "Truly" is divisive.
This is what happens when you follow a man rather than The Eternal! My family will stay with the COG7!
GTA was an evangelical 'Rock-Star' scoring massive 'trim' on campus, but later he'd lost his 'mojo', like when the Masseuse "pressed the Down-button" on his Elevated-shoes.
With all due respect, Anonymous 9:57:00 AM PST, concerning your comment "if people truly followed Christ, such schisms would not exist," perhaps one should consider what Paul wrote of a fellow minister more senior (at least in time and service) in Galatians 2:11,13 (NLT).
"But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong...As a result, other Jewish believers followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy."
Quarrels, disagreements, course corrections & even division et al appear within the 1st century Ecclesia, together with calls for unity, humility, and peace. Paul even openly goes after the "super-apostles" in 2 Corinthians 11:5.
A thought from Abraham Lincoln regarding division (second inaugural address) regarding differences between North and South: "Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"
Great post Lonnie.
‘The illusion of unanimity between the two groups has been preserved by the desire of the men in both camps not to further dilute the already diminished resources and reach of the organisation. Both sides recognised that a rupture between them would effectively destroy the ability of the church to promulgate its message……’
It other words, destroy the organisation = NO MEMBERS = NO MONEY = NO SALARIES.
That’s it in a nutshell.
These men are acutely aware of the bottom line. Their pockets.
The examples of the apostles and Gospel of Jesus Christ stand in direct opposition to what we find today within Armstrongism.
The ‘work’ of Armstrongism is so small it is invisible to the majority of humanity and yet the message of salvation has indeed gone out and is being preached and many are coming to faith in Jesus, the astonishing conversion of untold numbers within the Muslim world is witness to this phenomenon.
The cog movement is simply less than a speck in ecclesiastical history.
An individual seeking to discern and separate and reject error, doctrine not supported by the Word of God, from truth, God's Word, may over time become more "isolated", even lonely.
Lonnie:
This problem is not likely to be resolved. There is no heritage within Armstrongism of review, compromise and revision. HWA used to always say that one of the things that distinguishes the WCG from other churches was its willingness to change. I think historical events demonstrate that this statement is an exaggeration. HWA actually styled himself as the "Defender of the Faith" and sought to keep everything just as he originally set it up. And I would guess that this Defender attitude pervades Splinterdom.
The Jews regard the Bible as a problem to be solved scholars have noted. And Christians regard it as a message to be proclaimed - and this applies to Armstrongists even more so. So, the Jews have a lengthy heritage or midrash - a willingness to wrestle with the scripture, to do the diligent research and to arrive at a compromise view or to recognize that multiple views are possible without ceasing to be Jews. Armstrongists do not have that capacity. It's my way or the highway. Hence, schism is always waiting at the doorstep.
An Armstrongist denomination that is divided between conservatives and reformers is in a state of stalemate. There is no internal mechanism to resolve this. There is only a mechanism to make it more divisive. And the only thing that can happen, even though it impedes the message, is another banal and boresome schism.
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If this the first church that GTA founded upon leaving WCG or the second one where is son Mark is carrying on the work?
CGi cannot be any bigger than 1500 people or so in the USA.
Like all COG demographics, it is a much older tilted attendee, with a "half life" of perhaps 12 years or so. All the reformers have to do is bide their time, and be a little bit patient, and the "old school" issues will die a natural death.
GTA was remarkably impatient, and found himself kicked out the the WCG when his father was EIGHT SIX YEARS OLD in 1978. All he had to do was bide his time, suck up a little bit, and try to be a little bit more discrete in his screwing around. In spite of his issues, the WCG would have crowned him successor to the (in 2020 dollars) $400 million dollar WCG empire.
But alas, sociopaths like Ted, are not known for their patience, discretion, or careful long term politics. Ted, who imagined that he could recreate the success that he had in the 1960s , (an era that did not have talk radio , such as Limbaugh etc, due to the fairness act) , found that his news talk/sociological/ religious/political daily radio no longer had a unique selling proposition from the 1980s forward.
Alas, our friend John is right! Time will tell!
We live, unfortunately, in times when both political parties are actively destroying our country, and attempting to destroy each other. I'm not here to debate that fact, and if you disbelieve it, my advice is to open your eyes!
One would expect a Christian church to be a sanctuaryfor its members from that destruction, but unfortunately the battle is forcing a malignant dichotomy within Christianity, meaning that Christians are unwittingly participating in the destruction of the USA.
Sucks to be us right now. Switzerland is too cold. Costa Rica anyone?
NEO,
I'm afraid you may be right. Just what the world needs, one more "new" Armstrong Church of God!
1.20 PM
Decades ago, I read an article to that effect. A women attended a religious school where she was taught to strive for excellence. As a consequence, later in life she had few friends, and even one of these was slandering her being her back.
But it's such people who will shine and be leaders in the kingdom.
10.29 AM
What you are describing is people playing games with God.
If a person sincerely wants the truth, in the long run they will see through the lies and brain washing.
Discerning and embracing the truth is achievable.
Tonto said:
GTA was remarkably impatient, and found himself kicked out the the WCG when his father was EIGHT SIX YEARS OLD in 1978. All he had to do was bide his time, suck up a little bit, and try to be a little bit more discrete in his screwing around.
C'mon Tonto, you know better than that. While it's true that GTA couldn't keep his pants on in 1972, HWA swept that under the rug and completely forgave GTA, exonerated GTA, and restored him to his #2 position. GTA, being only 48, was indeed smart, and did keep his pants on, only to be WRONGLY disfellowshipped in 1978 by a politically ambitious Stan Rader. There is not a shred of a hint that adultery was a factor in his 1978 disfellowshipment, only other false accusations. There are plenty of in-depth studies that confirm this. And Tonto, shame on you, you know better.
One of the lessons we all should have learned from our experiences within the old Worldwide Church is that unity and harmony cannot be imposed on folks. Also, as long as the emphasis is on doctrines and individual rights, there will NEVER be harmony within the church. Harmony is only possible in an environment that sticks to the fundamentals - cultivating the fruits of the Holy Spirit and an attitude of service to others. Finally, the messaging has to be centered on salvation through Jesus Christ - it cannot focus on pop culture, politics and/or prophecy and maintain its universal appeal and cohesion. When it wanders into those areas, controversy, confusion, and division are sure to follow!
10.14 PM
When HWA threw GTA out of the church, Ted had a gay boyfriend. HWA tried to persuade him to stick with the opposite sex, but to no avail. Stan Rader and others probably told HWA that an openly bisexual church leader would be impossible.
It's Ted's poor character and 'can't keep it in his pants' behavior that ruined him
CGI is following the path of the old WCG. They are a mix of liberals and conservatives, iron and clay. It won't hold together.
The person sitting next to you in one of their congregations doesn't necessarily believe the same as you. CGI will coddle everyone to keep them from leaving. Instead of standing firm on the basics, they promote themselves as "tolerant", which is a disaster waiting to happen. Mixing and mingling with other organizations doesn't help either. They want "good", but they are going about it the wrong way.
They need to realize that Church is not a democracy.
It's a shame. There are many nice, dedicated folks in CGI. They keep their heads down so the liberal wing won't harass them.
There were many issues surrounding Ted in 1978. Rader politics certainly being one of them, but things like the STP, Teds drinking, gambling and other morality issues, but also Ted's discovery of HWAs own gross immorality within their own family in the 1930s/40s.
Again, both men had tremendous narcissistic egos, and Ted , if he were just patient enough, discrete enough, and just "sucked it up" and let the old man have the limelight and his own way for a few more years, would have easily ascended to the throne. Rader was never popular with the WCG masses.
Miller wrote, "Also, as long as the emphasis is on doctrines and individual rights, there will NEVER be harmony within the church."
I think this is exactly right. A church will find unity in the love of Christ not in doctrinal rectitude. If you rely on doctrine, you have to recognize that you can't really get everyone to believe the same thing. And some can, without malice, depart from the trajectory of the Gospel. Even Creeds will be understood in different ways by different people. But mutual concern and care is always recognizable.
On the other hand, there is such a thing as heresy. There is some threshold at which doctrine becomes sufficiently erroneous that it acquires spiritual lethality. And love doesn't fix it. The Armstrongist brothers need to humbly recognize that.
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In the NT, the titles "apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastors" were not, as I understand it, ranks. They were simply different roles. Churches were led by local elders, plural. Without ranks, as in the military, where higher ranking people have more power, money, larger offices, nicer cars, larger expense accounts, etc. the top positions wouldn't attract the wrong type of people. HWA condemned the way of the world, yet his organization fostered it. What if the evangelists and HWA had offices in the basement, rather than the fourth floor? What if the office space was open, rather than private? What if the PT wasn't used to create and maintain a cult of personality? I always thought that the high-ranking leaders were sometimes the least mature Christians. If all the power wasn't in the hands of one man, his excesses would have been minimized. I think that was Loma's role. The organization structure with one man ruling with a "rod of iron", where HWA surrounded himself with yes men, you get what you deserve.
CGI's Jeff Reed sent the following email message to my private account and gave me permission to share it:
Hi Lonnie,
The context of Vance’s sermon was in response to complaints about removing three recent sermons. One from Bill Watson, and two from Adrian Davis.
They were removed because they discussed vaccine efficacy and provided negative information about the safety of vaccines.
As I realized from my two blog posts there is quite a division in the church about vaccines.
The position that the church advocates is for the individual to seek out the best information from a doctor to make a personal decision.
Jeff
9:57 said "If people truly followed Christ, such schisms would not exist."
We're all works in progress, with shortcomings in understanding and maturity. There's a good reason "forgiveness" and "longsuffering" are Christian virtues.
In my experience, one of the tests of Christian maturity is, how we treat someone when we think they are wrong (either doctrinally or morally).
However, the COGs have a legacy of Mr Armstrong's branding "the plain truth" which led to a mentality that we're uniquely the true Christians, who uniquely have true doctrines. That leads logically to the idea that if someone disagrees with me, then they are not true Christians (otherwise of course they would agree with me, as true Christians are led to unity in the truth). Thus COGs fragment over relatively small/technical doctrinal issues. (Or even over plain old human conflict such as UCG/COGWA split.)
If Paul's public criticism of Peter and Barnabas in Galatians had happened in the modern COGs setting, it would have certainly produced two new competing COG organisations.
I think the remedy must be to abandon the idea that God's "true people" are reliably identified by a comprehensive corpus of doctrinal perfection, and impeccable moral behaviour. That will be true when God completes His work in the resurrection, but until then, it's more messy and complicated.
7.14 AM
According to you. Ted should have been discrete, sucked it up, exercised patience etc.
So man-child GTA should have behaved like a mature adult. How much sense does that make?
No Tonto, moral ten year olds cannot act like adults.
Adrian Davis gives some excellent messages. So we have no access to the two pulled that he gave?
Anonymous 1/25 @ 6:24,
You didn't miss anything. I heard one of the deleted messages by Adrian Davis, and it was a long-winded (one hour and nine minutes) diatribe against the decision of CGI to delete his and Bill's sermons against Covid-19 vaccination from their website. He opens by suggesting that this act is the equivalent of the Nazi book burnings of the 1930's.
He believes that he is inspired by the Holy Spirit to preach against the efficacy of Covid mRNA vaccines. He sees nothing wrong with giving his opinion on these things from the pulpit and insists that no one is going to silence him.
He repeats the thoroughly discredited misinformation that all of these vaccines are derived from aborted fetal tissue. He claims that Omicron is a gift of nature, which provides natural immunity to Covid-19 (he says nothing about the fact that over 2,000 folks continue to die each day in the United States during this Omicron surge). He suggests that a national fast would be more appropriate than any of the public health decisions that have been made during the pandemic (he says nothing about the fact that folks who resist and/or ignore these public health measures have contributed to the severity of the pandemic).
He believes that his anti-vaccination message is part of a spiritual battle against evil, and he declares that he isn't going to change his message for anybody! In other words, Mr. Davis makes very clear that he is part of the camp within CGI that believes that this kind of current events messaging is what the church should be all about. He believes that "we cannot conform our way out of this."
Davis goes on to underscore the importance of making close/binding friendships within the church. He sees this as a strategy for keeping folks within the community of believers and strengthening their ability to be nonconformists. In other words, stay in the bubble - don't allow those mainstream notions to pollute your minds and pull you away from what I'm telling you! He insists that those in the "liberal" reformer camp must not be fooled into trying to accommodate/appease the public health officials.
If you're into that kind of messaging, you probably would have enjoyed his sermon. For me, it was painfully hard to listen to Davis' angry discourse (even more so because it was delivered in his usual soft and reasonable style of presenting things).
As for the comments about Garner Ted, THANK GOD, he didn't keep it in his pants! If he had succeeded his father, the Worldwide Church might still be pumping out most of Herbie's message. How many of the folks here think that that would be preferable to the splintered, divided, ineffective, and dying movement that is currently the case?
it's peculiar to read about the right wing activist pastors in some of the splinter groups, and to contrast their investments in such with true enlightenment which begins with a death of ego experience and an emerging understanding of one's soul and its relationship to everything and everyone else in the universe. ACOG members are depriving themselves of transformation because they accept programming and the enforcement of it as doled out by their leaders.
With the popularity of social media, and fact checking, and the removal or disclaimers involving dangerous disinformation, the authoritarians who spread the disinformation have been crying about their "freedom of speech" being suppressed. They want their evil lies to be protected by the first amendment. Classic Armstrongism never taught or practiced freedom of speech, or for that matter, democracy. We were told that as a matter of faith we were to take every word spoken by the ministers as if it had come directly from Jesus Christ. And, if you hung around long enough, you'd hear many easily disprovable statements made by those braying jackasses.
"They were removed because they discussed vaccine efficacy and provided negative information about the safety of vaccines. "
OK then! Thou shalt not speak ill of the vaccine!
https://conservativeplaylist.com/2022/01/25/dr-joseph-mercola-the-spectacular-failure-of-covid-shots/
I think the Vaccine Controversy took everyone by suprise. But I think if the message is to go out and have effect it has to go out to a large audience. Christians who will keep everyone open to keep the Sabbath and are not SDA are in a minority and not going to be found in big numbers locally.
All of the splinters have fewer numbers internationally than do the large local churches which can fund big ministries on Christian TV. The ACOGs have been unsuccessful in getting on the Christian TV cable networks due to the obvious doctrinal differences with most of the broadcasters, so they are shut out of what would be today's most powerful outlet for getting out their message.
There have always been liberals and conservatives within the Armstrong movement, although those terms are limited on the normal spectrum, because even the liberals would be thought of as being very comservative in most church groups.
To get a powerful message out, you have to reach out and relate to your audience on a soul to soul level, making the process a two way street. You cannot treat most of your listeners as if they are Satan's people and place all manner of restrictions and hurdles into the path to membership. Armstrongist evangelists shoot themselves in the foot in so many ways as they attempt to get out their half a gospel, and they demonstrate an abysmal lack of understanding of human nature and basic motivation. They blame the lack of reception on Satan instead of looking more deeply within. Religion is not an easy sell for anyone these days, but there are outstanding examples of growth amongst those who have fine tuned their methods. Armstrongism is called Armstrongism because its teachers and followers continue to copy the antiquated methods of HWA as if that were some sort of eternal template.
To all:
Im not a GTA advocate in the least, however, I personally see Ted's impulsive behavior as amazingly non self interested , impatient, and bizarre. Just a little patience, and restraint, and Ted would have reaped a tremendous benefit.
Agreed with Lonnie that it is indeed a blessing that GTA DID NOT TAKEOVER. Even as a Sabbath Keeper to this day, I recognize that the destruction of the Hierarchy form of church government was an intervention from God for liberation from this non Biblical oppressive system that was employed by the WCG. Most of the splinter groups are trying to keep this system alive in some form or another, and are not being blessed as a result.
7.14 AM
Btw, my comparing GTA to a ten year old is based on people in my former workplaces. A little patience or restraint to get what they want is foreign to them. It sounds like Tonto has never met such people..
GTA is such an easy target. I've often speculated that he was just as much a victim of his father as were the rest of us. When we raise the idea that just a little more patience and perseverance might have given him the keys to the empire, we fail to take into account that at the time of his failure and expulsion, he was probably sick of everything around him and completely worn down in spite of his formidable strengths and talents. In the end, everything that he was was tied to his father, and everything that he endured, his mental turmoil, was also tied to his father. It was a two headed snake, and after he walked away, he was never able to duplicate the level of success and visibility which he had when completely under his father's thumb. His self-destructive tendencies remained with him. By all accounts, in the end, somehow his wife and children remained with him, loving him.
It's a complex situation for which there are no simple explanations.
9.53 PM
No doubt you can write a similar post about "victim" Satan. He too was "under his Father's thumb." His fellow demons also "remained with him, loving him."
Gosh, I'm crying in my beer over GTA and Satan.
re: covid vaccine
Doesn't the Church have an obligation to warn it's members of danger, wherever it may be?
Not if it is partisan danger, 6:16. Danger of the Covid vaccine is an invention of the MAGA crowd, and has been totally debunked by the real scientific community. As with any pharmaceutical, there are a limited number of side effects for specific types of individuals, but it is far more dangerous not to get vaccinated even if you do suffer a breakout case.
The danger was invented by the MAGA crowd? Really? Did you not read the article listed above? After doing a search on the subject I found an untold amount of information from what appears to be highly credible sources, some from the CDC itself. It appears that the vaccine is as dangerous, if not more so, than the illness. Look at all of the young athletes that have dropped dead after receiving the vaccine, along with those disabled by it. The CDC and Dr. Fauci say that it will not prevent the illness, nor the spreading of the illness. I don't think they are part of the MAGA crowd.
I just read this morning that actor Vachik Mangassarian from NCIS Los Angeles died from COVID, and he was vaccinated. The more I look, the more danger I see. The military medical reporting system shows a 3 fold increase in cancer in the last year since the vaccination of personnel. I'm thinking the stage is set for the Pale Horse. This country has turned it's back on God and is about to collapse. The Churches are not doing their job if they don't warn the membership.
Were the Armstrong’s bipolar snd if so could this explain some of the philandering and heavy drinking that went on? HWA says in his autobiography that he had high days and low days. People saw him drunk on campus. There are philandering stories for both. Since I am annonimus I can say it takes one to know one. I’m not saying there’s no guilt but perhaps it helps explain and we can better understand. Judge not we are told. GTA was one of the most successful radio evangelicalism ever. He made radio outreach posssble. Today when Churches of God try to do outreach it can cost a million dollars per convert!
6.07 AM
Not only that, but many doctors and nurses are quitting their jobs rather than submitting to mandatory COVID vaccination. Being medical people, they would know better than most about the risks involved.
Anonymous 1/28 @ 8:35,
Your comments are typical of the way that anti-vaxxers try to spin this topic. First, the overwhelming majority of doctors and nurses have been vaccinated. Second, doctors and nurses are not immune to the same kind of misinformation, partisanship, and conspiratorial thinking that has afflicted society at large.
Anonymous @ 8:35
I don't view you as having conspiratorial thinking, and I don't see you spinning anything. It's a known fact that there are medical people leaving the field of medicine, not wanting to be vaccinated. People need to turn off CNN and get facts. There are protests on curbsides here, outside of hospitals,by hospital employees not wanting vaxxed.
Well Lonnie, anecdotal evidence is rarely, if ever, enough to form an opinion about anything. When taken with the other evidence offered, such as that by 1/28@6:07AM and 1/26@3:31AM it reinforces said evidence.
If you want to believe in the vaccine, by all means go ahead. I have done a tremendous amount of research on it and am ever so glad that I never allowed myself to be vaccinated.
Israel, the most vaccinated nation on the planet, also has the highest infection rate per capita.
UK has withdrawn all mandates, as have a number of other countries. Canadians, Australians, and Americans are rising up against the vaccine tyranny and the corporate media is loosing control of the narrative. The truth is beginning to come out.
This is looking to be a very dangerous year in America, especially as the November elections approach. Don't think for a minute that those in power will just sit back and allow themselves to be voted out. They will use every trick in their book to maintain their control, like Satan, knowing his time is short.
People should go to to Mercola's website and look at the videos of the numerous people who have SEVERE, SEVERE reactions to the shot.
And access the many HIGHLY educated professionals who are anti-vaccine. Some of whom were involved with the development of the vaccines.
Many of the reactions to the shot are neurological, and of course heart problems, blood clots, Bell's palsy, etc. Destruction of the immune system, which is now resulting in side effects like hepatitus. Miscarriages, and other fertility problems. We are destroying the next generation. It is a crime to give the shot to children!
Many of the people in the videos make Parkinson's look like a Sunday School picnic (or, if you prefer -- a Sabbath School picnic).
And I have seen Parkinson's up close: mother and grandfather.
But everyone is entrenched: "A man persuaded against his will, is of the same opinion still."
Lonnie: how many members does CGI have?
I'm kinda fascinated that CGI has survived all these years.
CGI and the other splinters will not fair as well over the next 30 years due to the aging membership and inability to attract new members.
Yes, Dr. Mercola, Dr. McCullough, America's Frontline Doctors, and many others have websites with excellent material. These are top doctors, well respected in their fields, not internet kooks.
The shots are destroying the immune systems of those receiving them. Once you take the shots you are at their mercy. If you don't toe the line they will withhold medical treatment from you and you'll die a horrible death.
It's disappointing that CGI is not protecting the flock like a good shepherd, but removing any material that puts the vaccines in a bad light. Do they fear Caesar?
Go to
https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-whistleblowers-share-dod-medical-data-that-blows-vaccine-safety-debate-wide-open
Both Pfizer and Moderna vaccines now have FULL Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval. This was based on the same kind of rigorous review which all drugs and treatments are subjected to (with literally hundreds of millions of doses having already been administered. The Blaze as a source? Please!
Evidently 6:26 AM hasn't noticed the guest lineups on the Blaze and the expertise from those interviewed. Perhaps 6:26 AM isn't aware that for some reason liability for "vaccine" injury was erased for these shots and incorrect reporting has been the norm from those in charge of VAERS. Believe what you will. You're free to do so and won't affect any of those on the other side of the issue.
10:39,
Because they are immune to scientific fact, reason, and logic; and they are devoid of the care and concern for their fellows that Jesus Christ demanded from his followers.
11:34 AM
These experts in this YouTube link know nothing, is this how you see it? Your last sentence made little sense in regards to the conversation at hand.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR1iFnTP5tijBT99nHgQfSenu5sWGpshk6THwBIm7lC2lh2ijORbjAHFXUA&v=ciuRLFLoLL0&feature=youtu.be
Hey Lonnie,
I'm sure you've seen those tv commercials that start out "did you take such and such drug? you may be entitled to substantial compensation..."
Well, those were all FDA approved drugs.
Oh and by the way, the FDA approved Pfizer shot is still not available in the USA. Don't you find that interesting?
The World Health Organization has posted a great deal of scientific data on Covid-19. For those who may be interested, please check out:
https://covid19.who.int/
The United States has concentrated its public health energies, research, resources and expertise into some very good agencies which have been tasked with dealing with this pandemic. For those who are interested in their perspective on Covid-19, please check out:
https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/counterterrorism-and-emerging-threats/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nCoV/index.html
Likewise, the organization which represents medical professionals in the United States, the American Medical Association (AMA) has given their perspective on Covid-19 issues:
https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/covid-19-2019-novel-coronavirus-resource-center-physicians
If you don't like any of these resources, I suggest you consult your own trusted physician. Any of these is to be preferred over getting your Covid-19 information from THE BLAZE!
Lonnie, you forgot one:
https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/news/
Lonnie, you forgot another one:
https://deeprootsathome.com/nicole-siroteks-testimony/
I did come across the messages by Adrian Davis that had been taken down by CGI. I did like them. He had good points in them.
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