As a WCG pastor, sad I know, there were a few topics I never gave a sermon on, ever. British Israelism, Divine Healing only and The Place of Safety.
The first made no difference to me, even if proven and it is debunked, because it does not reflect the teachings or message of the New Testament which always seemed the focal point of Christianity. (That was meant to be somewhat sarcastic :)
The second, Divine Healing Only was just ignorant and dangerous to one's health. I also strongly felt and reminded fold that adult parents really had no right to exhibit "faith" for a sick child. That's both unfair and dangerous. If the adult wanted to trust for divine healing only without medical help, fine. But you cannot make that decision for your children. Be responsible.
And the third, The Place of Safety seemed concocted and the cause of more fear and questions in the congregations I cared to address, but should have, and downright stupid. "Hide me in the grave until thy wrath be passed" seemed more desirable to me and I was not about to tell any congregation that HWA or whoever said, "It's time to flee!"
Dr Bob," I'll Tell You When to Flee", is a big fan of the dangerous and insane concept of the Church around the world, all 200 of them, fleeing to the Place of Safety, whether to Petra or the back room of Bob's office.
Here Bob repeats Dr. Hermann Hoeh's long ago views, which I am sure, were he alive, he would disavow.
Of course, typical of the WCG schtick on such topics, it was "never before understood" until now, or then. It actually should read, "Never Before as Misunderstood Until Now". I would remind Bob that when he was in WCG, Gerald Waterhouse, or "Watermelon" as my kids called him, was the Church spokesman for the who, what, where when and why of the insanity of the Place of Safety. I would remind us that nothing of what he wasted the time of tens of thousands over came to pass or could come to pass. He is now hidden in the grave.
Sorry, too many people in the first crowd fleeing picture. These are probably more accurate
"Let’s open our Bibles to see why Petra has puzzled scholars and Bible students for centuries.
The true Church of God is pictured in Revelation 12. It is symbolized by a woman-the bride of Christ. But it is a persecuted woman-a Church hated by the world. According to verse 6 the Church fled the first time from her persecutors for 1260 years – during the Middle Ages. But verse 14 unveils another flight of the Church-in the very last days. This time the duration is only 3 1/2 years! “And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle”-supernatural deliverance-“that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time”–3 1/2 years.
This prophecy has never been understood by the world because the world cannot understand to whom this prophecy refers."
Notice that the power behind the “secret society” is expected to be hidden in a cave:
Anne Catherine Emmerich (October 1820): I saw the secret society undermining the great church and near them a horrible beast … concealing itself in a cave (Emmerich AC. The Life and Revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich, Volume 2, p.290).
I also believe that somehow demons influenced a mystic Catholic saint and prophetess named Hildegard to warn that those in a place with caves worked for the devil and were an advanced group that support the Antichrist. "
And fly from those who linger in caves and are cloistered supporters of the Devil. Woe to them, woe to them who remain thus! They are the Devil’s very viscera, and the advance guard of the son of perdition.
Therefore, O you My beloved children, avoid them with all devotion and with all the strength of your souls and bodies. For the ancient serpent feeds and clothes, them by his arts, and they worship him as God and trust in his false deceptions…Because they are afraid of My people, they do not openly resist these institutions of Mine, but in their hearts and their deeds they hold them as nothing. By devilish illusion, they pretend to have sanctity; but they are deceived by the Devil, for if he were to show himself to them openly, they would understand him and flee him. By his arts he shows them things he pretends are good and holy, and thus deludes them. O woe to those who persevere in this death!
But because the Devil knows he has only a short time for his error, he is not hastening to perfect infidelity in his members; you, you evil deceivers, who labor to subvert the Catholic faith. (Hildegard of Bingen. Scivias. Paulist Press, Mahwah (NJ), pp. 301-302).
Since I believe that the mystic was demonically influenced, she is actually warning against supporting the true Christians who will be protected who she is claiming are the “supporters of the Devil” (probably because they will oppose the Catholic Church). Since she calls them the advanced guard “of the son of perdition,” she seems to be referring to a group of people who will be protected in caves just before Christ returns (I stated that because certain Catholic prophecies seem to refer to the returning Christ as the “antichrist”, who is also sometimes referred to as “the son of perdition.
32 comments:
Keep up, Dennis! In the crazier ACOG splinters, Petra is out of vogue. Has been for a while. The real Place of Safety will be on the cult compound in Edmond or Wadsworth, depending on who's your cult daddy.
Imagine what the splinters would be talking about today if Loma had become intrigued by a National Geographic article about Hawaii or Cyprus instead of Petra.
I said "or the backroom of Bob's office" to cover that concept
It is interesting to note that HWA saw two instances of the Place of Safety in Rev 12: an early fulfillment and a latter-day fulfillment. There is no accompanying exegesis and I believe he pulled this out of the blue sky. It is all one event and it happened around 70 AD.
There was a place of safety for the church. It shielded the church during the time of the Tribulation or the 70 AD events. The Tribulation has already occurred. The place of safety came and went almost 2,000 years ago. There is no exegetical basis for believing that there was and former and latter fulfillment - type and antitype.
Beware of apocalyptic Millerites bearing news of the place of safety. Millerite brother David Koresh proclaimed the Waco Compound to be the place of safety. Have you seen photos of its ruins recently? History has already spoken to Splinterdom.
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We all know today that HWA plagiarized J.H. Allen for his British Israel doctrine. I've believed for decades now that HWA threw Loma a plagiarism bone allowing her to take credit for Petra as a place of safety. American Christian Evangelist and Zionist William E. Blackstone had been preaching Petra as a place of safety for the Jews during Armageddon for decades. Blackstone (1841-1935) was well known in Christian and Jewish circles for his backing of the Balfour Declaration, and was known to US Presidents. He literally stocked the caves with Bibles so the Jews could discover the savior they had rejected as they hid in Petra during Armageddon
Revelation appears to be primarily about the spirit world, and of course spiritual conditions here on earth as in churches - Rev 1:10. The two witnesses are spirit. The "place of safety" is a spiritual concept, IMHO.
It's very timely to revisit the place of safety doctrine right now, because there's probably an increased level of interest due to the medical, political, and meteorological turmoil we seem to be going through. As if this were not bad enough, the citizenry has been badly polarized, meaning that rather than getting together and combatting these obstacles, we seem to want to fight about them.
If Russia indeed was not a participant in the 2016 elections, their fondest fantasies regarding the USA have most certainly been fulfilled. If Covid 19 was not a weapon developed by China, it certainly has acted in their favor.
In the end, we can only do so much in living our own good, planned, and sensible lives. Regardless of how intelligently planned that is, badness which prevails in the greater ecological system in which we live will ultimately affect us.
It may be difficult for some to realize this, but the unstable and egomaniacal ways in which ACOGs practice church government are not going to go away simply with a shift in geography. Once the ACOG leaders are no longer limited by a Constitution and Bill of Rights, their places of safety will be anything but. They love their Old Testament. Stonings have been spoken of fondly by ministers in the past. Caveat Emptor.
Strange timing.
I never accepted that "place of safety" teaching. When I was attending WCG I used to listen to a Christian music band by the name of PETRA.
Can you imagine what a shitshow it will be when Thiel, Pack, Flurry, Weinland, and the other wanna-be important leaders of COG's all show up at the same time at the Al Siq Canyon and start fighting over who gets to go in first! Then once inside who gets the best caves? Who will be the one true leader? It will be one of the biggest pissing contests ever.
Obviously, Dennis was never on board. He was a fake minister all along, an infiltrator. That requires a lot of skill at evasion and deception.
GTA said many years ago Petra would only be a place of safety for about a day, because of the lack of food and water. So the ACOG's better start sending tons of MRE's and thousands of gallons of jerry-canned water to Rock City to insure survival for 3 &1/2 years, unless they believe their fearless leaders can get water out of arock and can bring down quails and manna from heaven!
Complete weirdo.
How did Dennis keep his job in such a high-demand, conformance-demanding cult if he did not conform to so many of the essential teachings and practices? He truly is an amazing standout for what is right and good!
.. for? How?
"I'll tell you when..." and how?
In my WCG days, there were many speculations on the means of transport, logistics and other intricacies of such a migration. Bob will say when - in a video, article, Letter to the Brethren, phone call? If the "transport" is miraculous - like in the "rapture" stories - then I guess the elect will know: "Believe it or not, I'm walking on air...".
Or will Bob's message be, get a visa to Jordan, book a ticket, wait at the airport when you land..." Okay - what if visas are denied? Must show proof of vaccination? Must show immigration an itinerary, accommodation bookings, money, return ticket? How will the 5000 African members afford this, or will they need to walk Exodus style?
I'm sure Bob will have this all worked out in time...
Anonymous said...
Obviously, Dennis was never on board. He was a fake minister all along, an infiltrator. That requires a lot of skill at evasion and deception.
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Obviously Bullshit. I was totally on board but as the years wore on, being on board a sinking ship was not the place to be mentally, emotionally or physically. There is a part of me that grieves the loss as it simply seemed right to me. I started into WCG at 14 years old. But then, I outgrew it by expanding my view of the origins of the Bible and the reality of evolution and the mythic nature of all of Genesis 1-11. The constant scandals didn't help my mental health either.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
How did Dennis keep his job in such a high-demand, conformance-demanding cult if he did not conform to so many of the essential teachings and practices? He truly is an amazing standout for what is right and good!
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In my early years, I worked for Regional director types in larger cities, but only for a short time. The vast majority of my ministry was in rural churches pastored by just myself.
What you called "essential" I felt were secondary and mostly speculation. I was not about EVER to tell someone to just trust in anointing for healing with no medical help nor would I EVER tell a couple they had to separate in a Divorce and Remarriage claim. I am not wired that way and nothing ever came from the fact that EVER couple I had to write up their marriage stuff on was bound to each other. It was a miracle! :) In 26 years no one ever bothered me or seemed to notice.
On Refresher Programs, these topics, British Israelism, Place of Safety, D and R, Healing were always being discussed and it didn't take long to realize they were troublesome topics and I was not going to invest dogmatically in any of it because of the obvious damage it can cause real people. Long story I guess.
I did the best I could. I also found my friendships among the members of my congregations and not among the ministry.
When I was given my 25 year watch, with a dead battery by a visiting administration type, however, in his sermon he did tell my congregation not to listen to me so there's that but by then, the end was near.
PS
Anonymous said...
Obviously, Dennis was never on board. He was a fake minister all along, an infiltrator. That requires a lot of skill at evasion and deception.
LOL, Sure, I wanted to waste my life infiltrating , skillfully with evasiveness and deception a church, for what reason again? If I was going to infiltrate anything, it would have Cornell University in paleontology.
11:31, you had good taste in music.
Wow, Dennis truly is wonderful! He did not push any of those very offensive doctrines and he took his kids swimming on the Sabbath and didn't deny them birthdays! Certainly, Dennis could hardly be called a WCG minister ... wait, except for the salary, car, housing allowance and job title that said he represented ALL of HWA's doctrines used to control and milk the members.
It's interesting how Armstrongites, past and present, try to re-write the history of Armstrongism and their role in it. They may be able to delude themselves but the historical record is forever carved into the suffering psyches of individuals and in intra-generational trauma.
2:12, haven't you ever become acquainted with anyone who was not a black and white thinker? Obviously, there were not too many of them amongst the COGlodytes and ministry, but according to the laws of probability, even in a controlled thinking environment like Armstrongism, there would have to be at least a few nonbinary thinkers. Apparently Dennis's pre-Armstrong church experiences and sensibilities immunized him against i-o thinking. Normally, that should be easy to understand, but apparently binary thinkers are not able to grasp such higher concepts.
Anonymous said...
It's interesting how Armstrongites, past and present, try to re-write the history of Armstrongism and their role in it. They may be able to delude themselves but the historical record is forever carved into the suffering psyches of individuals and in intra-generational trauma.
Anonymous said...
Wow, Dennis truly is wonderful! He did not push any of those very offensive doctrines and he took his kids swimming on the Sabbath and didn't deny them birthdays! Certainly, Dennis could hardly be called a WCG minister ... wait, except for the salary, car, housing allowance and job title that said he represented ALL of HWA's doctrines used to control and milk the members.
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For years, I am still the only former WCG pastor who has shared my views, topics of interest, concerns and experiences as I lived them here on Banned openly. You want to know something, just ask. If one is going to have an experience they may as well share it though I suspect I often share too much at times.
I have never hidden behind "anonymous" and post a genuine picture of myself to go with it all. I do know who some of the often posters here are in real life but have been told that because of who they are now, can't afford to have their colleagues etc know their past. Many anonymous types, which are the vast majority have one kind of fear or another either over family or being found out by their church friends or current ministers, as commenting on Banned, or even reading it.
While it does give me pause at times, I do understand the snark, sarcasm and labels, such as "Ministurd" etc that have creatively been contrived here to represent the hindsight experiences of many. I can't say it makes me feel good but I also have learned the benefit of not taking things personally as WCG snark is more a reflection of the person snarking than the reality of the specific target of the snark.
I have my own hindsight experiences and lessons learned. Sharing them from the perspective of my experiences in WCG I, at least, has been somewhat enlightening and helpful to some.
I, like many, have experienced WCG like you. Even in dealing with ministers I'd not want to spend five minutes with and didn't if I didn't have to. Same for members.
I have done the best I could and can looking back. I had to be there and believed it with all my heart or I'd not have been there. It was over years as one damn thing after the next unfolded and my own questions lead to a more and critically thinking self of today.
I would agree that my actual upbringing "immunized" me from that which I am sure any church organization's views with which I disagreed would protect me and I would not inflict on others in my "care".
And too, I'm pleased at least someone remembers that I took my children to the YMCA to swim and, don't forget, Dunkin Donuts after on Friday nights in the dead of a NY winter. Some of my fondest memories. Especially when my youngest called out having locked himself in locker and I had to keep him talking until I found the right one to free him. All twenty minutes ago it seems and certainly no regrets there.
And too... Perhaps more of the anon 's could write and contribute to Banned on relevant topics of interest or personal views and experiences? For years Gary has graciously let me write here and process my own experience from my own WCG perspective. For that I will always be grateful.
It has helped in the process that does take too long it has seemed and truth here.. "the historical record is forever carved into the suffering psyches of individuals and in intra-generational trauma." That is one of the "blessings" of memory.
Quote of a Lifetime: "If you want to make the gods laugh, just tell them your plans"
Wow , you learn something new every day !
All this time , I thought the saying was ..."TIME TO FLEA" !
and not "flee"
To the Place of Safety believers: Why do ALL speakers who teach that the Church of God will be taken to the place of safety NEVER explain how it was possible for the church to give birth to the man-child. Many times the speakers don't even read Rev 12:13. Or, they gloss right over it by saying that the woman is the church, "of course". But they DO NOT explain how it was the church that gave birth to the man-child. They don't explain this because they can't. The truth is that the text plainly and explicitly clarifies -- the v13 people gave birth to the man-child; the v17 people keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. If you can't see who these two groups of people are, then you believe your leaders more than you believe your Bible.
When you guys are done making this about Dennis instead of the rather interesting topic, would anyone like to venture as to just how this notion of the Church birthing Christ came about?
Dennis wrote: "Perhaps more of the anon 's could write and contribute to Banned on relevant topics of interest or personal views and experiences?"
Well, we often do, and when we write about our experiences with you, and here goes another try at that. I do give credit where credit is due. You did not react with quite the same level of WCG ministurd tantrum this time. Yet, disturbing triggers of the past remain your present reaction.
For example, speaking on anonymous posters, you wrote: "I do know who some of the often posters here are in real life"
Bully for you that you know who we are; that's not a genius discovery, given current technology. Considering the ease of discovering who we are, one is instantly inclined to wonder if calling attention to the fact that you know who we are is a typical ministurd bully tactic - threatening to expose us to the world.
Furthermore, you wrote: "... WCG snark is more a reflection of the person snarking than the reality of the specific target of the snark."
That's typical ministurd lingo for stating that the abused (snarkers) do not have a right to their feelings. Their (snarkers') abuse is a reflection of their weakness and ultimate responsibility for being abused, not a reflection of the abusers' (target of the snark) actions.
Kudos for a less ugly packaging but the content remains sick and sickening.
Thiel has an article up about it with excerpts from Hoeh... and it dodges the entire question too.
If you believe that the Rev 12:13 people that are taken to the place of safety are "Philadelphian" Christians (as opposed to the "Laodiceans" of Rev 12:17), then you are confronted with trying to explain how the Philadelphia era gave birth to Jesus Christ.
The "Laodiceans" they want to see in the story are "the rest of her offspring", who actually keep the commandments - not the picture of "Laodicea" we're given by the splinters today.
When I was a kid, my mom heard a sermon or some other kind of message on tape that made her believe the Tribulation would start later that afternoon.
So she packed up a bunch of stuff really quick, came and got us from school, and drove like a bat out of hell for Big Sandy.
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