UPDATE AT END...
A love letter from a reader:
WARNING: The continuation of verbal attack and condemnation of the Church of God or any group for that matter, is biblically unsound, sinful and destructive. I advise everyone who reads this site to check up on the information that is provided and research before concluding on any matter presented. The people who run this site are dead set on ruining the image of the Church of God. They are very bitter and hostile. It is very sad and I pray that they will have eyes that see someday. If you believe that God exists and hold to the Bible, if you believe God is a necessity for a meaningful and moral life, please heed me. Do not believe everything you read on this site. Take everything you read with a grain of salt. Their track record is not good. They are biased, very opinionated and not always honest. This site and other bashing sites will long be forgotten in the millennial Kingdom of God. Before then we must endure brethren. Persecution will continue to grow and increase from those outside the church. May Jesus Christ and God the Father be with you and may we love our enemies.
"What a joke to compare Ambassador Report to this fake pretence of a blog. Ambassador Report was put together by students.This blog is neither run by church students or church members but by two faced rebels from within the ministry. Who love the benefits of being part of the elite whilst running this blog.This blog claims honesty whilst being dishonest."
"This blog is neither run by church students or church members but by two faced rebels from within the ministry. Who love the benefits of being part of the elite whilst running this blog."
I just have to laugh every time you get your self-righteous pants in a knot claiming this. No ministers started this blog, though both of us were ordained in some capacity within the church. Both left the church over 2 decades or more ago. There have been ordained contributors here from other groups, but they do not maintain this blog. They deserve their anonymity just like you, even more so.
It is typical for people to lash out like this when their cherished traditions are under fire. If we are wrong, then prove us wrong. The problem is you seldom can.
If you were firmly rooted in your beliefs as the church taught you then you would have nothing to worry about from us. The problem is, you are not grounded and are grappling with endless questions and therefore get easily offended instead of taking stock of those beliefs and making good decisions. It was ingrained in us that our beliefs were God-given, sacrosanct, and immutable. Three decades of endless church splinters and idiot self-appointed prophets have debased the church far more than anything ever written on this blog.
There would be nothing to write about on this blog if COG leaders kept their stupid mouths shut and stopped making outlandish predictions. If they are dumb enough to say it then we are dumb enough to post it.
People take this blog FAAAAAAAAR to seriously. How can ANYONE be serious about the COG movement when there are such incredibly STUPID things being said and done in 2022?
Who would have ever dreamed we would have people like Bob Thiel, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland, and Gerald Weston leading COG's? No one could have ever imagined this in the years after HWA's death and yet here we are with these guys saying some of the most STUPID things ever imaginable.
None of them speak for God nor represent him in any way. Absolutely NONE of them are receiving revelations from God. NOT ONE SINGLE ONE OF THEM!
None of us have anything to fear when we reject their lies and call them out. They are powerless, weak, and impotent leaders at their core. They are theological empty, devoid of God's Spirit working with them
Like I said before, if they would SHUT UP, we would have nothing to do here and you would have nothing to complain about.
49 comments:
Lol
"I advise everyone who reads this site to check up on the information that is provided and research before concluding on any matter presented."
Good advice, and should apply to any website or any "teacher". If only more people checked up on what HWA said...
"The people who run this site are dead set on ruining the image of the Church of God."
Unfortunately, the people who run the COG's have done a good enough job at this, they dont need too much help.
"Take everything you read with a grain of salt. Their track record is not good. They are biased, very opinionated and not always honest"
Wait I'm confused, are they talking about the COG leaders again? Or HWA's prophetic record?
"......from those outside the church."
********
Hmmmmmm. "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock....." Rev 3:20
How's the Kool Aid?
Let's see, we have "The continuation of verbal attack and condemnation of the Church of God or any group for that matter, is biblically unsound, sinful and destructive."
Now THAT is funny coming from a COGlodyte. The best I can guess is that his pastor hasn't started up the "Christians falsely so-called" sermons for Halloween yet. And "persecution"? Really? Calm down, snowflake.
The continuing abuse, and the devastation it was brought to so many, so well documented by this blog and sadly ongoing to this day, within the cog movement, is biblically unsound, sinful and destructive.
I agree with the post.
The Armstrong Churches of God claim that they have a responsibility to cry aloud, spare not, and to lift up their voices like a trumpet and point out sins and transgressions, but you let anyone point out their misdeeds and they scream like banshees! Bonhoeffer said that "Silence in the face of evil is itself evil." I think he was right. As for persecution, they wouldn't recognize real persecution if it reached up and bit them in the posterior! Real persecution against Christians is currently happening all over this planet (e.g., Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc.) They can plug their ears and turn away like spoiled children, but they are only hurting themselves by doing so!
""Silence in the face of evil is itself evil." "
Silence equals consent
What about all the COG churches that teach women they have to stay in abusive marriage? And women are considered property? Armstrong ministers are very guilty of that. In God's word God provided for that but men won't follow what Gods says. In Church of God the Eternal women have no right to the money or children or home. If she wants to flee and abusive husband she is left with nothing. And what get me, it was the husband that was the guilty party. The COG churches won't follow Gods word.
Haha Pack just can't help himself, can he? Obviously he needs to now communicate directly with this blog.
Are you sure about the title NO2HWA ? Bog ???
I agree with the contents of the letter you've received. I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking that. But no one should fear this blog is merely going around in circles. Stuck forever in the past.
Jon Brisby has dirty hands when it comes to that divorce he pushed and the family he wrecked. Its all about the money for Jon, he admitted he "counseled" the man to divorce his wife over money. Jon sided with the man who comes from a bigger tithe paying, affluent family. The woman comes from a noninfluential family. Follow the money.
Well, they're not wrong.
What about all the COG churches that teach women they have to stay in abusive marriage?
Sounds like rubbish. Never heard of any. It's usually the men who suffer abuse. Slaving away for pampered women who rob them of everything.
Some article written here must have really touched a nerve. I have also been wondering recently, if the other COGs are beginning to lose sleep over the current meltdown of Dave Pack at RCG. This could greatly affect them as well (I fervently pray). The deceitful doctrines, hypocrisy and greed are very similar in all these groups and, if Flurry, Weinland, Thiel et al are not losing sleep over this yet, they should be.
Sunlight, media and the Word of God are deadly to these cults. God forbid they ever let their members think for themselves. If one of these groups goes down publically, the rest will soon fall like dominos. Look out below!
"They are biased, very opinionated and not always honest."
If the "not always honest" was changed to "frequently very dishonest," this would perfectly describe the ACOGs. They have a doctorate in the above
True, most if not all, have ever faced persecution on a violent scale. That will change very soon.
Why do you agree with the post?
I agree to a certain extent. The blog has certainly pointed out abuse and corruption which has occurred in the Church of God. Which is fantastic. However, this blog has spread a lot of false information as well.
Are you referring to Laodicean brethren as being a persecutor of some type? If so, I would agree.
Do you disagree?
In a sense, Banned By HWA, and in the past the Ambassador Report, are a form of "Black Market".
The term "Black Market" is actually negative sounding, when reality a black market is just an "alternative zone of supply". If there is demand , there will ALWAYS be a supplier, and that is just how the world works.
The COGS currently and historically, have created this "alternative zone of supply" by NOT allowing free intelligent discourse, rights of its citizens, accountability to the served, or any kind of empowerment. It historically has been involved with gaslighting, and the suppression of information and discussion.
So, if the COGS want to stop something like BANNED, they need to employ some methods of GLASNOST and stop being the centrally controlled , communist politburo systems that they are.
Hilarious.
To the agreeer: Why how spirituelle!
The reader's love letter stated: "...WARNING: The continuation of verbal attack and condemnation of the Church of God or any group for that matter, is biblically unsound, sinful and destructive...Do not believe everything you read on this site. Take everything you read with a grain of salt...This site and other bashing sites will long be forgotten in the millennial Kingdom of God..."
******
Who is doing the condemnation of anything on this blogsite?
You advised us: "...Do not believe everything you read on this site. Take everything you read with a grain of salt..."
Well, you also wrote on this site the following: "...This site and other bashing sites will long be forgotten in the millennial Kingdom of God..."
I guess, we better not believe what you wrote, then?
Millennial Kingdom of God? Where did you get that? What is so millennial about some Kingdom of God after 1,000 years when Satan exits the pit and again causes worldwide war and deceives all inhabitants on earth? Will that God be sleeping? Why was that all allowed to happen...even destroying portions of Jerusalem and causing great pain for its peoples?
Wouldn't it make more sense to establish the Kingdom of God on earth after all God's enemies are subdued?
What do you think about Jesus' verbal attacks where He used such language as: hypocrites, blind guides, like whited sepulchers, serpents, vipers, etc.?
Was Jesus Christ being: "...biblically unsound, sinful and destructive?" Should we use the words of Jesus Christ, who did set us an example?
There is no condemnation from me/others when we say things like God's Plan is to save all mankind, and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels, forever after the second resurrection occurs and God's Kingdom is established on earth with everlasting peace, etc....and yes, wars, tribulation, pain etc. will cease forever then!
But to think all of that is going to happen so much earlier like during some Mickey Mouse Millennium (of Thiel, Winnail, Pack, Flurry, Franks, Kubik, Shabi, etc.) with "another Jesus" reigning 1,000 years on earth? Another gospel? Another spirit? There is no condemnation; however, I am not believing everything you wrote, but have taken some of what you said with a grain of salt, because...
Time will tell...
John
Does DW stand for Douglas Winnail lol
Why is it that those who refuse to accept the truth for what it is, must find ways and excuses for discounting the truth or making it sound irrelevant. Sundown tries to make the person revealing the truth to be somehow guilty of some imagined or perceived injustice based on his faulty perception.
Sundown does not like the fact people here ridicule his father and those that believe his garbage. He thinks it is perfectly fine to let his father's followers be spiritually and financially abused.
His father does not run a Christian organization and it is apparently wrong to point out that his followers are believing a lie.
It is ok for this father to spend millions of dollars on properties in the neighborhood with members' money while telling them that Christ is supposedly returning the day after tomorrow.
Of anyone on this blog, Sundown knows deep down how wrong his father is, especially after how he and his siblings have been treated over the years.
It's ok that his father's followers believe him deeply that they have lost everything, homes, businesses, financial savings, retirements, family relationships, and friends.
Hate speech is what Sundown's father says every single day he sits on that stage and makes another fucking prophecy that will fail.
Biased, very opinionated and not always honest? Sounds like the teachings of some of the group's out there. Romans 2:1.
"They are biased, very opinionated and not always honest."
Not ALWAYS honest -- just sometimes, I suppose he is saying.
The tone of the warning seems to be coming from an LCG or UCG elder (if anyone has the courage in that church to say that). Also, the concern with the "image of the church" makes it possible that it's coming from Charlotte, since they seem be the ones more obsessed with appearances than UCG, and putting Christ's name at the end ahead of the Father's name shows their lack of understanding of the "government of God", which is their calling card. Being too authoritarian and merciless and not elevating Christ's name in the church are descriptive of them
But the fact remains that the image of the church across the COGs is a bad one, reflecting the image of the beast more, in some cases, than the image of Christ.
For this blog to survive, it needs to effect a repentance across church lines. For the COGs to escape the shame of being persecuted, they need to confess their sins instead of blaming everyone else but themselves for their troubles, as if they only are doing good so why should they be persecuted? If they want to keep quiet about ministerial abuses and adulteries, the persecutions will continue in various forms, just as it did for David (earthly head of the government of God, something for LCG to note since their government can do no wrong in their eyes) AFTER he piled up the sins to deserve it in the first place.
There isnt anything I said there that I havent repeated to Marc or Dennis or anyone else in the hours Ive spent communicating with them. If anybody questions my intent they can start with that understanding
Unless you have a high profile dad in the organizations, and have left Armstrongism behind, it is impossible to know the mental complexities a PK goes through on a public forum or blog which discusses and critiques the cult and your parents' past or present role in it. My dad was neither as high profile or notorious as Sundown Kid's father, but whenever his name or work came up, although I had a lot of misgivings about the ways in which we were raised, and the impossibility of ever having an honest and healthy relationship with my parents without faking and kow towing, I never trashed them by name or defended them. I opted for not taking ownership of them. I simply allowed them to function in their community without any influences from me, and did not want readers to even think of me in the light of them or as extensions of them.
Some fellow PKs do not have that option. Things are said that are grossly untrue, and it is difficult to sit back and not to set the record straight. Some of it is your basic strawman stuff, painting with a broad brush with general things that don't even begin to apply. I've watched the PK thing unfold in numerous ways, and it isn't always pretty, although none of the psycho-drama anyone experiences in the aftermath of Armstrongism is. Interestingly, I had never heard of Dennis Diehl. However, one of his sons had made an appearance on the old Painful Truth Forum, had let us all know who he was, and his confrontational manner aggravated most of the people on the forum. Then, when an unsuspecting Dennis, some months later, joined the forum, he got dogpiled and nobody wanted to give him any sort of understanding or chance, or allow him to work out the many issues he had experienced at the hands of the church. I mean, this was one of the good guys, one who had seen the light and left, yet participants wanted to hold him responsible for the whole damned mess as if he were one of the worst of the tyrants in the ministry.
There was one PK on another forum who had been raised in the church from infancy, but had left and became somewhat of a rock star in his local area, and although everyone knew who his dad was, since the dad was well liked, parental and ministerial issues never became a federal. The cool factor of Rock and roll has a way of endearing people to others. Lonnie, in his abundant sharings here, has been very forthright and circumspect in the treatment of his father, although it is plain that there has been the same past pain for him which Armstrongism always causes in family situations. As for Sundown, considering who he was raised by, he strikes me as being amazingly level headed.
A large percentage of people come to these discussion groups as part of their effort to recover. Discussion can be therapeutic. PKs did not get a vote on whether they wanted to be PKs. Some SEP friends of mine from the old days actually sent one of the guys whose father was ordained at the feast one year a sympathy card. They could already see the bag of manure opening up, and the blades of the fan picking up the first little morsels and blowing them towards our friend. Oddly enough, the dude became a second generation elder, which to me was indicative of the power of the indoctrination and brainwashing experienced in Armstrongism. You see, Armstrongism is a powerful modifier, one that has made all of our lives vastly more difficult and painful which ever side you fall on. The PK phenomenon is just one small part of it.
All of us equally deserve our recovery from it if that is the path we choose. It would be cruel for any of us to be so judgmental as to think that that we personally get to recover, but that others who have suffered equal agony somehow don't deserve theirs.
@9:22, thanks for your comment. I too was a PK for a short time, but rubbed elbows with many in the 40+ years I was in from childhood. If you didn't live it, please don't judge, it was a unique form of indoctrination 24/7. It's not something you can just brush off your pants and walk away from.
Madman!
What a joke to compare Ambassador Report to this fake pretence of a blog. Ambassador Report was put together by students.
This blog is neither run by church students or church members but by two faced rebels from within the ministry. Who love the benefits of being part of the elite whilst running this blog.
This blog claims honesty whilst being dishonest.
"This blog is neither run by church students or church members but by two faced rebels from within the ministry. Who love the benefits of being part of the elite whilst running this blog."
I just have to laugh every time you get your self-righteous pants in a knot claiming this. No ministers started this blog, though both of us were ordained in some capacity within the church. Both left the church over 2 decades or more ago. There have been ordained contributors here from other groups, but they do not maintain this blog. They deserve their anonymity just like you, even more so.
It is typical for people to lash out like this when their cherished traditions are under fire. If we are wrong, then prove us wrong. The problem is you seldom can.
If you were firmly rooted in your beliefs as the church taught you then you would have nothing to worry about from us. The problem is, you are not grounded and are grappling with endless questions and therefore get easily offended instead of taking stock of those beliefs and making good decisions. It was ingrained in us that our beliefs were God-given, sacrosanct, and immutable. Three decades of endless church splinters and idiot self-appointed prophets have debased the church far more than anything ever written on this blog.
There would be nothing to write about on this blog if COG leaders kept their stupid mouths shut and stopped making outlandish predictions. If they are dumb enough to say it then we are dumb enough to post it.
People take this blog FAAAAAAAAR to seriously. How can ANYONE be serious about the COG movement when there are such incredibly STUPID things being said and done in 2022.
Who would have ever dreamed we would have people like Bob Thiel, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland, and Gerald Weston leading COG's? No one could have ever imagined this in the years after HWA's death and yet here we are with these guys saying some of the most STUPID things ever imaginable.
None of them speak for God nor represent him in any way. Absolutely NONE of them are receiving revelations from God. NOT ONE SINGLE ONE OF THEM!
None of us have anything to fear when we reject their lies and call them out. They are powerless, weak, and impotent leaders at their core. They are theological empty, devoid of God's Spirit working with them
Like I said before, if they would SHUT UP, we would have nothing to do here and you would have nothing to complain about.
You assume much and refuse to recognise how advanced technology is.
You are also a liar and lie to yourself. You take this blog extremely seriously by it's continual non stop posts. None take it more seriously than you.
If you had walked away from the Church of God movement entirely this blog would not be so intense nor exist. The blog post's would be completely different.
Ambassador Report was famously done by WCG students whilst still there. You fool no-one.
Bless your heart! You are delusional.
I never understood why so many in the church are filled with conspiracy theories and are so tied to them that they get so angry like 11:20 is. He is obviously a newbie here and doesn't realize you are in direct communication with those from the Ambassador Report. As the years go by come Armstrongites get crazier and crazier.
The COGS do damage to one’s brain, particularly with regard to criticism or the questioning of cog dogma. We were taught that it was satan and/or rebellion that explains anyone ever doubting the cogma (cog dogma).
So, given that, cog members believe with such big forces at play there must be a conspiracy. It is where the cog brain automatically goes.
They can’t imagine that it is simply a concern for loved ones harmed by the cogs. It’s been doing it for over 9 decades now. Most contributing here know how it harms by separation: separation from others and a separation from a true relationship with Christ.
It would be wonderful to never again think about the cogs, but they are still hurting people.
I was right there when Ambassador Reports was being conceived and produced. It was done by some friends of mine who had actually graduated and left the org. One of them had spent several of his AC years at Bricket Wood. Since you use the term "whilst", I assume that you would find that of interest.
Maybe you ought to be fact-checking your own accusations before making them, 11:20!
Anon 11:20:00 AM PDT
What this blog is doing is exactly what other blogs etc are doing, ran by those who have left other well known abusive religious organisations such as the JWs for example.
The abuse of these organisations needs to be exposed and documented as a warning for others.
Where their theology directly contradicts scripture that must be confronted.
Blogs such as this and the others do indeed provide a ‘public service’ and for that we should be grateful.
Nothing done here is done secretly but openly as the posts and it’s comment section witness.
That’s a far cry from some of the strangely secretive cog sects, who by their very own practice and behaviour have much to hide.
So different from the gospel of Jesus Christ who preached openly to all and with compassion and in love.
If the cog movement followed His example this blog would not need to exist.
"Since you use the term "whilst", I assume that you would find that of interest.
Maybe you ought to be fact-checking your own accusations before making them, 11:20!"
I thought the same thing when reading "whilst". He no more was around the Ambassador Report people in Pasadena than I was.
"... it's continual non stop posts."
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! It's non-stop posts because idiot ministers and church leaders make asses of themselves every single day when they cannot keep their mouths shut!
Who's angry ? Same old strawman argument.
He never said he was 4:35.
Some anonymous dude wrote:
"You assume much and refuse to recognise how advanced technology is.
You are also a liar and lie to yourself. You take this blog extremely seriously by it's continual non stop posts. None take it more seriously than you.
If you had walked away from the Church of God movement entirely this blog would not be so intense nor exist. The blog post's would be completely different.
Ambassador Report was famously done by WCG students whilst still there. You fool no-one."
Dude, you sure got your ass handed to you by everyone here! Now that you are a Major Dude, you need to join this site to become more of a manly Dude! https://thedudesociety.com
Typing in many different aliases? Who's fooling who? Sad quite sad.
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