Is it any wonder why the Church of God is such a messed up pile of rotting garbage in 2023? Today's Church of God ministry is the product of this kind of thinking in the church. Since they were treated as wanton sinful "criminals" as children they lash out today as adults to demean their followers by attempting to lower them as chattel beneath them while warning members to keep their emotions stifled and thus compliant to proper church government.
For years, I have insisted HUMAN NATURE IS CRIMINAL. Sometimes, people are shocked to hear me say a baby is BORN "criminal." Sweet, precious, lovely though he may be to his parents — a tiny, struggling, helpless little life. He is nevertheless capable of huge passions — and unacceptable behavior.
Every baby must be TAUGHT self-control. He is not born with any instincts of kindness, patience, goodness, love, understanding, emotional control, honesty, integrity, faithfulness.
He is born, rather, with a pull in his nature toward SELF. His first instincts are totally SELFISH — directed inwardly.
Each individual child, black or white, must be TAUGHT everything from control of his bodily processes to control of his emotions. (quote from here)
27 comments:
Liars, after a while, start to believe their own rhetoric, especially after their followers and believers feed it back to them.
Humans are fundamentally ego-centric and selfish. No denying it. Cannot entirely disagree with GTA.
Because "the church" was ignorant of a lot of good science, they ignored DNA studies into criminal behavior.
“Garner Ted Armstrong: Babies are born 'criminal'”
Well, it does look like GTA was born criminal, stayed criminal, and died criminal. Maybe it takes one to know one, Too bad HWA did not try to beat it out of GTA.
I love em, but CATS are indeed born criminal!
Nature vs nurture is such a deep, multi-faceted topic, that grand, blanket statements do not begin to adequately cover it. GTA is not the only religious figure to believe that babies are born criminal. Early church father Origen is reputed to have taught that humans are actually incarnated fallen angels, whom God is mercifully redeeming through their human lives. Paul had much to say about his own nature. We all know of families in which we've watched some babies who appeared to be predatory from birth, in their very early stages of development, and others from the same mother and father totally altruistic.
Once again, the WCG being the author of black and white thinking, I can see a man with a mixture of big talent and horrible flaws extrapolating his own nature over all of humanity, leading him to make a statement as GTA did. Nature has many polar aspects. But, nature also deals in percentages. I liken human nature to a device not unlike a radio. Some people are born with their knobs or dials turned all the way down, or all the way up, and others are set right in the middle where it's fairly comfortable. Some indeed are like a radio or good quality stereo, with relatively few knobs or dials. Other folks are complex, more like a full on mixing board. Even the speed control board on a good conveyor has potentiometers that must be carefully tuned so that the conveyor motor pulls smoothly and has an appropriate range of speed.
Humans have great potential to be warped or corrupted by traumatic experiences. There are also outstanding examples from the opposite extreme, who can be lifted up by positive influences. I believe that the greatest lesson I have learned from life is that if you want to be successful, you must always feed the areas which are consistently giving you positive feedback.
I remember Jon Brisby over at COGE stated in a couple messages that babies are born with "black hearts". Sounds like these men are looking at the same playbook, and it's not the Bible.
Ironically Brisbies predecessor and supposed "mentor", stated himself in a couple messages that babies are not born this way. So who's right? Garner Ted and Brisby? Or Cole?
From 1969 Plain truth article ? Did Garner Ted even write the article ? Getting desperate ? Bitter much ?
Truth at 9:01,
HWA, Garner Ted, Brisby and Cole all taught that we are born with evil human nature which is attributed to God whose purpose is that we overcome this nature when called with the help of God's Holy Spirit. This rebellious nature is inborn and akin to Satan's evil nature. HWA in the 1970s changed this teaching in that babies are born innocent but subject to Satan's wavelength that influence them to do evil - an about turn in the original teaching.
Old grumpy pants writes: “From 1969 Plain truth article ? Did Garner Ted even write the article ? Getting desperate ? Bitter much ?”
Did the doctor drop you on the head when you were born? The link to the article by GTA from his article about MLK and those Negroes is included.
"So God created man in his own image....... And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day" - Gen 1:27,31.
Little children can manifest Kingdom characteristics (Matt.18) like absolute trust, unconditional love, and humility, while at the same time exhibit extreme selfishness that shows up at a very early age (my ball, my toy, "MINE"!!!). How can this be? Are we born pure in heart, neutral, or with a sinful nature?
This is a complicated subject, and for brevity sake and not being an expert on the subject like GTA, Jimmy Swaggart, or the college of Catholic Cardinals, it appears to me that we are born, not with a sinful nature, but with a self oriented "carnal" nature, that, if left unchecked will eventually become corrupt and fall into sin. Example?
Adam and Eve, created "very good", "fell" while in their state of perfection. But this was only after God hid Himself! As long as they were walking with God and He was there guiding their steps (a type of having the holy spirit), they were fine. But when left to themselves, the nature they were created with, they stumbled. Then after expulsion from Eden, the whole human race was left to their own devices (a "lost" condition as defined by some).
Well how the proverb speaks: Train up a child in the way he should go (Proverbs 22:6). Training in righteousness should begin at a very early age.
Sorry, Cole did not.
"Can your heart go out to members of another race, and can you ASK GOD'S FORGIVENESS FOR RACISM?
If all our whole NATION could do this — all our race problems would be over."
Interesting take from GTA, considering WCGs own practices and those of its successors.
No COGnitive dissonance there, 7:52. The passage you quoted from the Genesis creation narrative is from prior to the fall of man in Genesis 3. I heard HWA describe human nature as being a mixture of good and evil, numerous times, both in sermons, and in class at Embarrassing College. And how could it not be? Polarity is one of the living laws of the universe. The very fact that one "thing" exists means that its polar opposite exists. One of the nuances of the ancient Hebrew language is that superlatives such as "all" or "every" were taken as meaning "for the most part". Its why you could have a passage in which all members of a particular ethnicity were utterly destroyed, and then a few chapters later, some of them are still walking around. That sort of language does not seem to leave room for percentages, or the space between two opposing poles. However, we can still know that God's intentions for all that He created were good, and that all had the potential of being used for good.
So, how do we get from "it was very good", to human nature being a mixture of good and evil, to it being an evil thing with which we are all born? There are numerous possibilities, places to go here, but since this is the Hanukkah season, noteworthy to our Jesus (John 10:22), I submit that the lamp oil for the temple during the time of the Maccabees provides the key. There was other oil available, but it was contaminated, not of temple quality, and could not be used. In so many words, it was treated as evil. This is consistent with the lesson of leavening. Apparently, a little evil goes a long way.
The human race has attempted to describe itself for millennia. Man is dominated by emotions and drives. The strongest drive is that of preserving one's self. In the emotional maelstrom that is self preservation, humans often display animalistic traits. Acts committed would be considered to be extremely evil if perpetrated in a setting in which there was no threat to ones existence. The Talmud goes to great lengths to describe how far one could go in preserving one's existence. The drive for self preservation is considered to be a net good in terms of survival of the species, despite any "necessary" evils committed. In a setting in which the polar opposite of good did not exist, this drive would not be necessary. This certainly raises additional behavioral questions regarding character vs the removal of evil circumstances. Is it really Kingdom quality character if one is placed in a "clean room" where there are no evil stimuli?
Armstrongism presented themselves as having all the answers, but often left some very deep questions remained. The Armstrongs and their lackeys claimed in so many cases to know (with precision!) the unknowable. Are babies born tabula rasa, a blank slate on which everything is gradually written as life progresses? If not, how much encoded or embedded programming does a baby have? Personality? IQ? A unique set of reactions to various prompts? Preferences? Orientations? People wrestle with such questions in the context of their belief systems, or the lack thereof. The Armstrongs provided some very mixed messages on so many of the deep philosophical questions which we all have. And, unfortunately, they enforced their own inadequate dogma on all members, even when dealing with the unknowable.
One would hope that current members of the ACOG splinters would not allow their teachers to be the artificial stopping point in their quest for truth and knowledge. The quest for knowledge is not a bad thing, and there should not be a glass ceiling. Assuming you have all the answers means that you cease to grow. That is a much more dangerous position as compared to seeking answers and holding those who would provide them accountable. The act of proving all things should not be throttled or have a governor.
Wut BP8??? God did not hide Himself; Adam/Eve hid from God. To be picky: the "perfectness" began to crumble when the serpent/Satan began to mouth off!
10:33: "So, how do we get from "it was very good", to human nature......?"
Yes, I'm very simplistic but a one word answer could be?: Satan.
What was the date on that GTA prayer request, RSK? It's so difficult for any of us to find anything good about Armstrongism, but wouldn't it be nice if there was just one example of GTA's receptiveness to further education and coming to his senses towards the end of his life?
If sexual impropriety were still against the law GTA would have been stoned with stones numerous times.
May 1968. The link is just above the baby meme, but its small and easy to miss.
I believe BP8 refers to the post-expulsion period.
It's an interesting read. I feel like GTA is vacillating a bit throughout the article. At the same time, he also seems deeply affected by the current events of the time. I suspect Bull Connor's spectacular backfire prior had probably awakened him as it did for many other white Americans.
Glad you made the "stoned with stones" distinction! Hah! The boomers mighta thought you were talking about medical grade chronic from the dispensary otherwise!
Hey, where is everyone today? Blog seems a little dead! All the COGsters out shopping for presents for "Winter Family Weekend"?
Yeah, I had missed the link, too! I remember that era very well. I followed the link, read the article, and had some problems with it. It is very dated, and reflects the general immaturity which affected many white people as they grappled with the need for a civil rights movement, and the types of changes required to provide equality. Plus, the people whom GTA had characterized as being hypocritical about publically criticizing Dr. King and then professing shock and outrage over his assassination? He left out the part about this including just about all of the WCG ministers! I had heard that for years particularly on Bible Study night when they gave a synopsis and analysis of the news we were always admonished to watch. They really hit "race" riots as being a sign of the end, "the stranger among you rising up" and all that.
My opinion is that this article was mostly for the public, but some months later, as his F/T sermon at all the sites was "What The World Needs Now!", GTA continued and deepened the line of thought which he had started in the article. He was most definitely on the ecology bandwagon during that era. Who knows what direction the church might have gone in if he had only been able to keep his peter in his pants!
I've got one more personal anecdote that might shed some light on GTA and racial attitudes. In 1975, when our department had been sold to a secular company, I was in the process of getting the hell out of the church. The only person who ever thought enough to try to dissuade me from
leaving was one of my black friends with whom I worked. When GTA started his church, my friend and his family went with GTA. I believe he trusted GTA's attitudes regarding race. I had heard later on, that my friend had been ordained as an elder in that church, and I know based on many conversations over 6 yesrs working with him that he would have made a good one!
RSK at 939 writes:
1) Can your heart go out to members of another race and can you ask God's forgiveness for racism?
2) If all our whole nation could do this, all our race problems would be over.
Concerning #1. A Christian should be able to do this, for it is God's will that we love our neighbor and be at peace with all men.
Number 2 is more complicated. As long as our nation allows a chosen few to define racism for us according to their narrative, we have no chance.
I just saw an ad on TV that said Jewish hate was up 366%. Is that true? Or is it that people are speaking against the official narrative and that's being labeled as hate?
If one has an opinion which differs from the official Gaza narrative, is that hate?
Is it racist to quote certain verifiable FACTS that is outside the official narrative, like a certain race commits a certain percentage of crimes, or a certain race controls the largest percent of this world's wealth?
Is it racist to believe homosexuality is a sin or to reject the transgender agenda?
As long as this world system is allowed to set policy and define right from wrong, we as a nation are going nowhere! The fact is, only Christ can rid us from hate. We can't do it ourselves!
1100
You are correct that God didn't hide in the since that Adam and Eve did, but He did withdraw Himself from their presence which allowed the serpent to come in and do his damage.
Here's the thing, BP8. I'm not saying that you are racist. All I know about you is that you had some sort of Armstrong experience, and you know how to type. However, people with a wide variety of opinions are very capable of finding statistics to support their opinions. So, I look at how those opinions are used. Are they used to make the world a better place? To help people in their personal growth and development?
It's an unfortunate fact that the Gaza situation has been used as an excuse for hate crimes against both Jews and Arabs. Unfortunately, when people go after Arabs, they include people in their hatred who aren't even Arab! Pakistanis and Indians also get persecuted because some people are too ignorant to distinguish the difference in race, and think they are Arabs. Along with hatred comes a certain amount of blindness. People kill people.
For, every statistic, there are factors which have caused the statistic, and the factors are not just skin pigmentation. We live in times when people have been so polarized by the politicians that they don't even want studies done on racism as it affects the institutions which are supposed to ensure fairness and stability in our free and democratic society. People who say that multiculturalism does not work are those who don't like it and deliberately sabotage it. It works amazingly well for people who appreciate the fact that the people we used to only be able to study about in Social Studies class in school are living next door to us or up the street and we can now learn from them in person.
The world has become such a melting pot that the old Armstrong/Waterhouse theory about sending all the people back to the nations their ancestors first came from for the millennium is absolutely ridiculous. Drive by any high school and look at all the kids who are multi-ethnic. How are you going to sort them out without actually breaking up families? I don't know about you, but I really don't want to be sent back to England, or Israel, or wherever. I like it here where diversity makes the USA an exciting place to live, especially with all the wonderful dating opportunities the melting pot has brought!
1235
I never thought for a second you were calling me a racist. My rhetorical questions were only meant to show how the powers that be manipulate those who think outside of their box. That's how this world works. That leads me to a couple of statements you made that I would like to address. They are innocent on the surface and probably the way most people think, but for me they are contradictory from my Biblical perspective.
You state, regarding how opinions should be used . .
1) to make this world a better place
2) to help people in their personal growth and development.
Most would probably say these 2 ideas are one and the same, but not so for me.
There is absolutely nothing we can do to make this "world" a better place! This world has been judged, sentenced, and is passing away before our very eyes, see 1 John 5. Christ tells us that "the world cannot hate you, but Me it hates, because I testify of it, the works thereof are evil", John 7:7. These are the same " works" that are supposedly directed to benefit humanity, to improve its condition, and to alleviate its misery. That all sounds very noble, but history and our present reality prove otherwise.
Scripture has many things to say about this world and the spiritual influence guiding it. Satan is called the "god" of this world, and his agents call themselves, ministers of righteousness, 2 Corinthians 11:14. It is obvious that He, the course of this world, and the leaders of this system are irrevocably linked, see Ephesians 2:2. Since this is the case, this world has no chance of becoming a better place. We are witnesses to that fact and the validity of God's word. So where does that leave us?
Your second point says it as well as it can be stated: We are "To help people in their personal growth and development", which is another way of saying, to love they neighbor as thyself. I would like to think I'm doing that, although it may not always appear to be so.
Our loyalty is to our fellow man, not this world system! We need to encourage one another to THINK, and to do what we do for the right reasons, not because an authority figure says so. Isn't that what this blog is about?
I have no problem with the melting pot, diversity, or multiculturalism if it is truly organic and not a social engineering project to destroy cultural norms. There are however consequences for THINKING that rejects the official narrative. One can be kicked out of church, banished from society, and even killed.
The example of Christ says it all!
Post a Comment