It is hard to believe that it has been 38 years since Herbert Armstrong died. I remember that morning vividly. I always had to drive by his house to park in the underground parking structure on the campus. When I drove by that morning there were a couple cars in his driveway, no real biggie.
Then, when I got close to the Hall of Ad I saw the flag at half mast and a flurry people going into the building. Later that morning I got a call to come to his house and was given a suitcase that was filled with his medicine. It contained a huge number of medicine vials, prescriptions, etc. I was instructed to take them to the amphitheater down by the gym and burn them all in the fire pit there.
The day quickly devolved into endless speculations what his death meant for the church. Many saw it as a sure sign that the end times had arrived and we would be fleeing soon. The craziness was off the charts.
Various HQ evangelists and high ranking ministers thought they deserved to be his replacement and got the shock of their lives when it was discovered Joe Tkach Sr. was the new Pastor General. Rod Meredith and Ellis LaRavia was sure they were going to be the chosen one. Thank God they weren't!
And here we are 38 years later and the church is like a basket of rotting peaches. A putrid rotten mess of moldy decay covered with flies. Who could ever imagined we would have men like Bob Thiel, Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack and Ron Weinland saying the most idiotic and blasphemous things imaginable.
Almost every single Church of God out there was born in an act of rebellion and refusal to follow church government they had all so earnestly demanded of members just a few weeks earlier to their apostasy. None of these men were men of virtue and ethical standards. As each splinter group split off the shenanigans by their new leaders was shocking and disgusting.
Is it any wonder 38 years down the road we continue to watch these groups shrink and become nothing worthwhile? Hundreds and hundreds of members continue to leave the church every year. The churches offer nothing worthwhile to the youth to keep them interested. Their appeal to the public is minuscule since they all try and operate on 1986 Worldwide Church of God models.
For most of its lifetime the church was a closed environment with leadership controlling what members read and heard. Questions led to disfellowshipment and public humiliation which kept the membership in line.
Then the internet and cell phones with internet access happened and the church lost control of its information stream at an astounding rate. Members who had long distrusted official statements from the official sources quickly discovered they had been systematically lied for for decades. Money was embezzled and used for private means of enrichment by many top church officials. Members who had struggled to fund this quagmire of corruption quickly stop supporting the church. Tens of thousands left the church entirely.
Today the flashy veneer that some COG's use to cover up their stinking underbelly is barely sustainable. Grumbling factions are at work in many COG's today ready to break things up yet again.
11 years from now will anyone even know what the Armstrongist Church of God movement was? Will anyone even care?
85 comments:
HWA's death and Tkach succession initiated a time of unprecedented growth for the Church in all areas.....these were the highdays of teleevangelism. The World Tomorow broadcast rose to 2nd in overall ratio's in the religious sector. Too rigid 19th century American culturalisms were loosened and WCG seemed on a path to modernisation and a more enlightened version.
Talks with other COG's like COG7 and Sabbatarians around the world like in Ukraine seemed to merge the best of COGism with WCG moving toward "more Christian interpretations" and the rest of the Hundreds of Thousands of COG Sabbatarians profiting from WCG's unprecedented Media experience in reaching the masses.
THEN changes came. Two tongued sermons. Pastors who would refer longtime members to just graduated AC students for "explanation" of .....what seemed a return to the religion old timers had left in the fifties and sixties for the dynamic end time preaching of WCG religion.
It became unbearable.....not so much the "christian" doctrines but the boredom of being reintroduced to everything people had left behind........The madness, the dictatorship, the blatant theft.
So I left 1991.....
Nick
Not that the concept was ever proven valid, but it's worth noting that two nineteen year time cycles have now passed. If this hot mess of ACOGs is the Laodicean era (church eras have been theorized but never proven), then they've had their two nineteen year cycles, and the Tribulation should either be starting, or has already passed completely unnoticed (unless people want to make stuff up)!
My own reason for commemorating the death of HWA is to celebrate the fact that I held HWA accountable in 1975, and got to live a long life his false prophecies would have denied me of living. Even if the timing actually was off, and his false prophecies became true tomorrow, I've already won, and nobody and nothing can take that away from me.
anon703,
Glad 1975 had that effect on you and you saw the falseness. God bless.
Nck,
Glad you were able to leave in 1991.
NO2HWA, it's a pity you couldn't have taken a picture of the contents of that briefcase. It would've been a really nice bit of historical documentation of HWA's/WCG hypocrisy of using doctors and medicine!
38 years. Teens who believed they would not get married before Christ returned are now grandparents. Some of those teens/now grandparents wonder if their grandkids will remain in the COGs and whether their grandkids will be married before Christ returns.
Most of the larger COGs don't give fixed prophetic years of Christ's return as Armstrong did, but they often opine that these are the last days and it can't be much longer. It's not good for the kids (or anyone) to live this way. I suspect that most of the kids/grandkids will not in the 2050-60s, as grandparents, hope their grandkids remain in the COGs.
NO2HWA, who called you and gave you the briefcase and instructed you to burn it?
Is 2024 the end of 6000 years?
[Bible has 1656 yrs+427+400+480+429] to 585 BC, 2608 yrs to 2024 AD = 6000
And today is the 38th anniversary of the 2300th day - Daniel 8:14? (If you think I'm totally nuts......go ahead, think)
Metaphorically after 38 years - Deut 2:14 - is it about time to emerge from the Armstrong sludge and enter the promised land?
Incidentally scholars have apparently long debated the date of the end of Zedekiah's reign (Zedekiah, last king of Judah-Wikipedia) as 587 or 586 BC, due in part to whether to count by non-accession or accession years. My pick of 585 BC to count 6000 years ......uh, has merit.
"NO2HWA, who called you and gave you the briefcase and instructed you to burn it?"
Ed Haupt
As the years and decades have gone on, the internet became more powerful revealing more and more truth (about them) or information for the average individual to research and come up with conclusions or shall we say the “big picture.” I don’t really think that they wanted the lay members to “prove all things!”
GREAT DISAPPOINTMENTS
It was disappointing that the apostate Tkaches with their Great Apostasy of January 1995 threw out virtually everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught.
It was disappointing to see how badly many Worldwide Church of God members actually behaved around that time.
It was disappointing to learn that many Worldwide Church of God “ministers”/hirelings did not really know or believe anything, but stayed around anyway to get their paychecks.
It was disappointing that the GCG/LCG was willing even to pervert the gospel and other major teachings with so-called “doctrinal upgrades” to compete against Herbert W. Armstrong and pretend to be smarter and better than him.
It was really disappointing that lying, thieving, false prophets like Gerald Flurry and David Pack rose up to edit, change, warp, mangle and totally pervert virtually everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught after falsely claiming to be holding fast faithfully to all of it.
It is still disappointing that the UCG/COGWA want to promote their X-mass Weekend custom and make it the best time of the year instead of the Feast of Tabernacles.
That IDIOT Gerald Flurry seems to think the date of Herboid's death on the PAGAN calendar of Satan's church is important. As if God would use a pagan calendar devised by the popes to keep time Satan's way.
Why would God do that, when God already has a pagan calendar dictated to him by the Holy Chosen People (who were sloppy astronomers) who tell God what to do and how to keep time!
Why doesn't God make up his mind which human pagans to take orders from?
The anniversary of Herbert Armstrong's death evokes a lot of memories and a complex mix of emotions. It makes me think of my own spiritual journey, and the proverbial mountains and valleys I've had to cross to get to where I am now.
There was a time when I believed that Herbert Armstrong was God's Apostle for the End-Times - that he had restored TRUTH and recovered the original version of Christianity. I viewed Mr. Armstrong as a modern representation of one of the holy men of old, and that he had devoted his life to helping others to see God's truth and to becoming a part of God's Kingdom.
By the time of his death in 1986, I had already left the Worldwide Church of God, and my perspective on Mr. Armstrong had begun to change. Over the years that followed, I came to understand that the organization which he had founded was NOT synonymous with the Ekklesia which Jesus Christ had founded. I also came to see and understand that many of Mr. Armstrong's teachings were deeply flawed or just plain wrong. Finally, after a great deal of soul searching, I came to understand that Herbert Armstrong was a deeply flawed man who had quite deliberately manipulated people, history, and Scripture.
Still, in looking back, I cannot escape responsibility for my own role in this narrative. I allowed myself to be manipulated and deceived. I did NOT do my due diligence, and I should have known better. Since that time, I have done the heavy lifting and research that I should have done on the front end.
Even so, I feel like I'm in a better place now, and I know that I wouldn't be here if I hadn't taken that fork in the road once upon a time. It has taught me to question, to dig deeper, and to be more responsible with the resources which God has entrusted to me. Finally, I now have a personal relationship with my Savior, and my faith is on a much firmer footing than it ever was when I was part of Herbie's cult. I have learned how to love and be loved, and I am glad that I ended up taking a road less traveled by others.
Hard to believe?! 38 years.... that sentence told readers a thousand things.
But he returned.
But you never really left.
I recall HWA's death making news around the country. I first heard it on an afternoon radio newscast in Atlanta. Then Peter Jennings mentioned it on ABC "World News Tonight" in the second section.
Yet WCG/Atlanta went ahead that weekend with a Spokesman-Graduate Club dinner-dance. Someone asked at that event why it wasn't called off in HWA's memory.
What is disappointing to me is the reactions of AC students and WCG members. There were many sermons given that explained what was going to happen to the church. And it began before HWA died, and is continuing now in a mini uproar. Didn’t anyone listen to those sermons? Evidently not, or there wouldn’t be so much nonsense going on today about such uproar over a very insignificant group size, compared with all today’s Christian problems Just less than 200,000 total compared to maybe two billion.
I listened to, and remember those sermons. And, thankfully my wife and family didn’t need To go through the anguish expressed here.
In fact, we have received many blessings.
There is always a better way. Just honestly look for it and it will appear.
@ 12:29 PM, thanks to 19 year cycles, this year is one in which January 16, 2024 is on the same Hebrew calendar date as January 16, 1986. So Flurry can safely scour the news for January 16 news. Watch for him to crow about Trump's Iowa win, which happened after sunset last night. The record low viewership of the Emmys would indicate an America wising up about crass celebrity, so that won't interest GRF. Maybe he'll take the playoff loss of Philadelphia as evidence of Satan's persecution, though.
Regarding Meredith and La Ravia thinking they would replace HWA, No2Hwa said, "thank God, they didn't."
My first thought was that it wouldn't have made a big difference; it still took me almost 25 years to see the falseness of Armstrongism, ah but I was young. But, without Tkach, 1995 would not have happened in 1995. So, for many tens of thousands, Tkach being pastor general probably saved them from another decade or two under Armstrongism.
Armstrong's daughter Beverly would be 105, Dorothy 103, Richard 95, and Garner Ted 93.
Second wife Ramona would be 84.
38 years is a long time.
38 years = TWO PROPHETIC 19 YEAR TIME CYCLES , BRETHREN!
(Just doing some "ghost writing headlines" for Pack, Flurry, Weinland, Thiel to use!) LOL!
I am distantly related to both Hebert and Loma Armstrong. We are all descendants of a Quaker family named Wright. I have many Quaker leanings and find Herbert’s shift to Millerism to be most unfortunate. Yet, let me say something not so much in defense of Herbert but something that is needed to complete the picture of his involvement with the small denomination he built.
Herbert was who the people wanted. He is characterized as the oppressor of the people in his denomination but he was the person these people wanted. They wanted him to be the Elijah. They wanted him to be one of the two witnesses. They wanted him to be a strong and uncompromising leader. They wanted him to be God’s end-time Apostle. Herbert’s much vaunted and glorified role passed down to his followers. Herbert’s specialness was their specialness.
Some were in the Worldwide church against their will or without their consent. This is a sad thing. But many were there because they liked what they found. Just as in current affairs, Donald Trump is who the MAGA people want. They are not going to choose an East Indian woman over Donald Trump. When Donald Trump’s cup of importance runneth over, it washes over his followers. It was the same with Herbert and his followers.
4.14 pm, True, they wanted HWA to be Elijah, one of the two witnesses, an Apostle etc, but they were brainwashed into wanting this. Umpteen times from the pulpit, Herb was referred to as "THE CHOSEN APOSTLE." Without the brainwashing, members desires are different today.
All members who stop attending services experience a big mind change.
I can't imagine anyone ever setting Rod Meredith up as some sort of authority/example, or leader in their organization. The Ellis LaRavia whom I knew was an exemplary individual. Granted, I have no idea how he might have changed with the years, or what he might have been like, post-1975, but I had a lot of respect for him and found him to be both personable and genuine. We worked together for a couple of years.
38 years is two time cycles.
The square root of 38 is 6.16 which is 616 which is the number 666 minus 50. Isaiah was sawed in half at age 50.
The perimeter of a symmetric hexadecloid is 38 + 7. Both are holy numbers.
The star of David has six points. The number of man.
38 is 40 - 2. 40 is the time of trial and testing. 40 is also 4 times 10. Man has 10 fingers and four limbs. That makes 40. It's profound.
See where this is going? He who has an ear to hear, let him hear!
I think the issue with LaRavia had more to do with his wife Gwen. She went into a screaming fit when he did not receive the position she thought he deserved. She suffered from mental health problems for years and it became visible to Pasadena employees with her actions at the Gloria Swanson Sugar Blues events in the Auditorium and Student Center.
But is there a way to presently keep 1st century Christianity more humbly now & without the boisteous, ego filled, exuberant, over-regulated, micro-managed, burdensome exaggeration than the way HWA did? What if he had a good idea but then got whalloped with ego? And of course he excessed in campus opulence same as Edmond, OK auditorium & Wadsworth overindulgence & LCG puffed but stale approach all are doing. Neither is it helpful the way B. Thiel's exhaustive dreams & writings leave us with God resorting to a "hide-the-mantle-somewhere-&-go-seek" puzzle 🧩of a mantle goose-chase (& if you don't find which guy had/has/might-have-had-it, then you lose your crown).
Bob T. wants us to believe that when HWA passed, the "mantle" spun like a Rubik cube & may or may not have went full or part-time to, or with : Aaron Dean, or Dibar Apartian, or R. Meredith the bully, wheww thanks Bob for teaching us God has a mantle-hide-&-go-seek shell game we must unravel or else we lose our crown. Church governance/church governance/hierarchy/hierarchy me-me-me, my dreams/my dreams/Fesi's dream/1000 + languages/hide the mantle & go seek.
Messianic Jewish congregations are less opulent than Edmond & Wadsworth but do go into excess concerning sukkot shanty booth demands & kippas or yarmulke & tallit traditions & 613 this n' that.
But sliding the yucky ego stuff aside, what's wrong with keeping 1st century Christianity?
I never spoke, saw or listened to anyone from that life after 1991 besides the blogs since 2003. I never experienced any of the control extremes. I always been autonomous. My WCG mother let me decide at 5 if I wanted to go to "Christmas dinner at kindergarten or not"... I knew we didn't celebrate any of it, but I liked my friends and a good stew.... and that's it, an upbringing based on the Genesis verse "I set before you..... Now choose..." Quite unique.... I realize...
Maybe he'll take the playoff loss of Philadelphia as evidence of Satan's persecution, though.
No, silly, it is the loss of the Cowboys to the Packers which truly demonstrates evidence of Satan's persecution! LOL
I think the issue with LaRavia had more to do with his wife Gwen. She went into a screaming fit when he did not receive the position she thought he deserved. She suffered from mental health problems for years and it became visible to Pasadena employees with her actions at the Gloria Swanson Sugar Blues events in the Auditorium and Student Center.
I would like to know more about this. What did Gwen say or do at the Auditorium? And what on earth was the "Gloria Swanson Sugar Blues" event? I never heard of such a thing....
Second wife Ramona would be 84.
Does anyone know if she is still alive? What became of her after she and Herbie split?
A little off-topic:
A problem with the 19 year cycle
"Jewish scholars have known since before 1948, that the "minor discrepancy" in the 19-year cycle has accumulated to make the holy days a month late in some years, however the Jewish calculations still use 19 years" (Facts About the Jewish Calendar, geocities.ws/changes1611/calfacts3.html).
"It isn't actually known when and from where the Jewish calendar fixed on a 19 year cycle period which very much resembled the 235 lunar month period attributed to the Greek astronomer Meton. Most serious studies on the Hebrew calendar note that this 19 year cycle does lead into average year lengths that are slower than the mean tropical solar years by an average of about one day in every 216 years"
(lists.h-net.org/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-judaic&month=9607&week=b&msg=iIgCsZ%2B4UbNFvAcnpAOgWA&user=&pw=).
"The Jewish Calendar and Holidays (incl. Sabbath): How accurate is the Jewish calendar?
"The Jewish calendar is based on a figure for the length of the solar year that is 6 or 7 minutes too long. As a result, over the past 1500 years (since the time of Hillel II) the calendar has drifted by about 7 days, and in some leap years the first day of Passover occurs as late as April 25, which is more than a month after the vernal equinox. This discrepancy is not mentioned in most places that discuss the Jewish calendar, but it is treated on pp.207-8 of W.M.Feldman's book Rabbinical Mathematics and Astronomy...
The Jews readily admit that the current calculated calendar in use is indeed in error and needs reform.
"...the present [calendar] system was expected to be replaced again by a system based on true values more akin to the earlier Jewish calendar in which New Moon (days of the phasis) and intercalations were proclaimed on the basis of both observation and calculation" (Cecil Roth, editor, Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol. 5, p.47, article: Calendar)....
"The rebirth of the state of Israel rekindles in us the hope that a new Sanhedrin, recognized by the whole people of Israel, will be established again in our time. It will be the task of the Sanhedrin to make a decision as to when and how the sanctified calendar of Hillel II is to be modified in accordance with the requirements of astronomy and the Torah" (Arthur Spier, The Comprehensive Hebrew Calendar, p.227).
"The current Jewish calculated calendar, because of several built-in features and inherent errors often schedules the feasts later than they should be" (Facts About the Jewish Calendar, geocities.ws/changes1611/calfacts3.html).
Blaming the sheeple runs in the genes ? I suppose WW2 was all the German citizens fault.
William Dufty wrote a book he dedicated it to Gloria Swanson for basically saving his life. She went on the road with him, tirelessly promoting it, going up on what she called one of her mini soapboxes to plead with the public to stop eating processed foods and so much sugar.
As a funny aside.
Also Gloria lived at Crescent Drive where Stanley Raders son lives and can't remember by heart the Beverly Hill's adress where Stanley himself lived.
nck
Though Mrs. Tkach had major mental/emotional issues; but, I don’t think this would include anything unseemly. I remember seeing her just quietly walking on campus.
It would be VERY interesting to know what Ramona's life was like after she was HWA's 2nd wife. WCG & successive COGs gave so much grief to so many singles of all age groups, at times preventing many good dating friends from pursuing their happiness together in a marriage, but whoop-tee, no problemo if HWA wants to.
Stodgy ministers & counselling staff led many singles to remain unmarried. On one hand the COG makes fun of Catholic priest & nun celibacy but on the other hand, they harped on our singles that "Paul says it's better if you remain single".
But old Herbie got to snuggle up with a young cutie Ramona. Hope we see someone update us of where Ramona went. Don't tell us it's "not a salvation issue" either...we freely study in depth the life stories of Biden & Trump out of human interest, & the interest in Ramona's later life is human interest too.
Here is a clear photo of HWA with new bride Ramona very much younger than him, sonny GTA in pic too. Doesn't it look like sonny GTA & step-ma Ramona are SIMILAR age? What if Ramona was younger than GTA? HWA & Ramona's age difference might be similar to G. Flurry & young 2nd wife Vicki. Is Vicki Flurry same age as step-son Stephen?
HWA & Ramona pic :
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yumpu.com%2Fen%2Fimage%2Ffacebook%2F22248361.jpg&tbnid=nBDafiIuSY8szM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yumpu.com%2Fen%2Fdocument%2Fview%2F22248361%2Fapril-25-1977-worldwide-news-herbert-w-armstrong-library-and-&docid=FYs5PHY55N2_UM&w=400&h=557&hl=en&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim%2Fm4%2F2#imgrc=nBDafiIuSY8szM
"What's wrong with keeping 1st Century Christianity?"
Theoretically, nothing at all. The problem is church leaders who attempt to redefine it by backwriting themselves and their beliefs into that time in history, and then presenting that package as reality. HWA idolized Alexander Hislop. Hislop's premise was that if you were able to walk into a pagan, Babylonian mystery religion church service, it would be exactly like walking into a Catholic mass today. HWA gleefully usurped this ploy of Hislop's, and used it to imply that if you walked into sabbath services presided over by the original apostles, it would be just like walking into WCG sabbath services today. Same doctrines, same basic culture, totally familiar as if someone from the WCG Chicago congregation were to visit a New York City WCG service. We know from the Bible and history that that's just the old advertising executive coming out in HWA's ministry, part of his hype, his claim to having something exclusively available through himself.
The splinters continuing to use this is even more ludicrous today.
It's so nice to know Yahweh's festivals and sabbaths are FIXED, from day 1, on a fixed calendar: moed, moedim, Strong's 4150, from Strong's 3259, yaad, to FIX. The Jews have the calendar: Rom 3:1-4. Even today, after thousands of years, the new moon is at or near the conjunction and the full moon is at or near the middle of the month. But "near" is not good enough for some.
Soupy Sales,
Garner Ted was 9 years OLDER than Ramona. Ramona 37 and Garner Ted 46 when she married HWA.
When she heard about Herbert's incest/rape of his daughter Dorothy over a 10 year span, the divorce from Herbert was inevitable.
Seen on a recent screenshot: "If you want to spend 10% of your income to be lied to, go to a strip club."
Ramona? She died around 2017. She did remarry after divorcing Herbert.
In response to 11:03 PST and continuing off topic...
Interestingly, using calculators for day of the week and moon phases in the past, the Passover sacrifice was likely on the afternoon of the fourth day of the week based on when the moon was new (not a crescent as sited in Israel , but new as in modern day hidden) with the first day of the seven day feast beginning at sundown on April 25 on the Gregorian calendar in 31 CE.
The day when the sacrifice occurred in 30 CE was likely on April 5 which was the sixth day of the week.
The moon phase information was on a US naval web site in years past with day of the week calculators on other web sites, but I am unable to find the page on the naval site now. However, the information can be found using other sites.
I remember post Ramona divorce hearing that HWA had a relationship with a VERY young Filipino female. It seemed as if whatever rules or mores that the membership was expected to live by, HWA or big shot ministers were exempt from and got to do whatever they desired.
Hi, 4:49
My preferred understanding is this:
* Mishnah Pesachim 5:3
"If one slaughtered the Paschal lamb before midday it is disqualified, as it is stated: "And the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon" (Exodus 12:6)."
Ex 12:6b And all the assembly of the congregation shall kill it between [bein, preposition] the evenings [‘arbayim, noun dual].
Jer 6:4b Prepare ye war against her; arise, and let us go up at noon. Woe unto us! for the day goeth away, for the shadows of the evening are stretched out.
"Hebrew bein ha-‘arbayim literally means "between the two settings." According to Radak [Sefer ha-Shorashim, i.e. "The Book of Roots, 13th-century] the first "setting" occurs when the sun passes its zenith just after noon and the shadows begin to lengthen, and the second "setting" is the actual sunset" (Nahum M. Sarna, Exodus, The JPS Torah Commentary (5751/1991), pp.55, 245).
Christ, as a Passover sacrifice, was killed between the evenings according to the ordinances of the Passover — He was killed on a Friday afternoon.
(If Christ wasn’t killed between the evenings He was not a Passover sacrifice).
The Passover that Christ ate on the night he was betrayed was killed between the evenings, according to the ordinances of the Passover — The passover was killed (cp. 2Chr 30:15; 35:1, 11; Ezra 6:20; Mk 14:12) on Thursday afternoon and eaten that night.
Christ was killed on Friday April 7, AD30, halfway through his prophetic week. This implies that Christ's prophetic began in seventh month of AD 26. The 69 weeks was therefore completed at the end of the sixth month of AD 26.
Christ's prophetic week is telescopic — there is a time-gap between the two halves of His week. The second half of Christ's prophetic week begins at the end of the Antichrist's prophetic week. The Antichrists' prophetic week is ‘continuous' — there is non time gap between the two halves.
Da 9:27 And he [the Antichrist] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Da 9:26b and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Making a strong covenant with the Jews begins the Antichrist’s first half week; breaking it starts his second half week, three and a half years of great tribulation.
When I first started attending in the early 80's I was puzzled why there were so many sermons on the sins of David, Moses, etc. Years later when I learned more about HWA, I understood it was to reduce the shock of wcg members if they learned of Herbert Armstrong's disgusting sins.
Thanks Mike. A wiki site says GTA's oldest sister Beverly was b. 1920. WOWWWW WHY would the old fella HWA think it so prudent to remarry with a lady Ramona born around 1940 who was 20 yrs. YOUNGER than the man's 1st DAUGHTER? And 9 años younger than GTA too?
Beverly was 20 yrs. old when her Dad's future 2nd wife was born. HWA married a girl young enough to be his GRANDDAUGHTER. I feel like vomiting and also feel some anger.
I still keep membership in a very small COG which has such sparse & scattered membership, that other than FOT, this COG is basically an online church.
When I was in WCG years ago & even now in this one, if I critically bring up the topic of any HWA flaws including what Ramona wanted to know about with Dorothy, it will instantly get me labelled as a pharisee by my "brethren". (or they hint at me being "an accuser" too). My own wife passed away, & if any of my current brethren including the pastor notice I have natural hetero interest in dating again (dating which is open to possibility of marriage), they all hint as if I am wrongly focused & they pretty much treat me as if I have sex on my mind or something. (are they the pharisees, not me?)
My COG pastor just printed a magazine where he addresses youths asking why they should be patient if they are wrongly blamed as guilty by their siblings for things the siblings accuse the non-guilty one for. The pastor accuses the victim. He tends to not take the innocent one's yes for a yes or their no for a no. He pops back in the article and gaslights the innocent one into accepting guilt while innocent, because it will build "character" & "patience" & "love". I hope this goon of a pastor I have never has a lady in his church raped because he will likely assume she brought it onto herself. (so I continue to not identify myself literally yet up in here) He's very ego-based. But I enjoy 1st century Christianity there.
This pastor reminds me of supporting Cinderella's mean stepsisters, in order that poor Cinderella can "accept" being blamed wrongly so that she "endures persecution". Next time he watches Cinderella, I hope he roots for the step-sisters 👺
I can't believe this COG I'm in treats me as if I have marriage on my mind too heavily. We hear of most teens in our church go off & marry OUTSIDE of COG. Then they sort of come back in again with their new mate as co-workers or visitors or what have you. They are never treated as if they had "marriage on their mind too heavily" but somehow I am, simply because I had interest in dating.
I'd like to think that ONE of the many reasons I remain in this COG, is that indeed I am trying to patiently endure when we are wrongly accused. But by our own brethren? Very wearisome. And then the pastor won't take the word of certain youths sick of being accused by siblings.
HWA married a lady born in WW II, but his daughter was born in WW I aaaauggh.
When I was 20, I would be SICK to know if a baby girl born that year would end up being married someday to my wrinkly old Pop.
But thanks Mike, it seems helpful to know about "Mrs. Armstrong" (Ramona).
Soupy Sales,
I'm sorry for your hurt in all of that. I wouldn't remain with that group, but we each have to make those decisions for ourselves. Not that it matters much, but Beverly was born in 1918 and Dorothy in 1920. 1933 was apparently the beginning of HWA's perverted actions with Dorothy.
A loooot of Old Geezers here.......to call a 37 year old lady ..........waaaaayyyyyy beyond her prime......a girl...........
nck
hey nck, you skimmed the reading way too fast man, I for one said she was a baby only during the year she was born.
No one on this entire thread said she was a girl when she was 37
and one comment was referring to how a hypothetical girl would grow up to marry someone years later in her life AFTER she was an adult but still younger than HWA even younger than GTA her "brother-in-law"
if you read road signs as poorly as you read here, your tires will lose tread quicker than normal
ok younger than GTA her son-in-law
Nck, I said she was a fetus, but I suppose that in Latin that means baby. Sorry, meant to be funny. It's late.
It is late. I was trying to figure out some serious problems regarding suffering in emails from P.E.T.A. when I responded to nck about Ramona & stepson GTA, sorry. And, for days it's been shocking to see that HWA who I thought of as a sort of "bible hero", made such a shameful blunder with his 2nd marriage. I became somewhat sick to my stomach all day & I kept making grammar & pronoun typos, then I finally relaxed to turn in for the night.😖🤢
And good riddance to him. When I think about that old buzzard and how long he's been dead, I start going back in time into my memories and I get anxiety.
I remember when I was just a lad, with happiness. God, I remember happiness like it was yesterday. I was just an innocent kid growing up on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I can almost see it now. Me running through the grass on a sunny day, trying to avoid the honey bees, smiling as I went. I liked cats and cartoons and other things not exclusively starting with the letter C. But then this dark cloud blots out the sun, and it's him. Herbert the W doesn't stand for anything Armstrong.
My dad was a true believer. Guaranteed spot in the 144,000. Read his Bible and his Plain Truth every evening. My mom was Catholic. She never believed for a minute. My dad would talk to me about church, so he won the toss up. Made for great family time. I remember thinking HWA was some great thing. A real-life prophet and apostle. That wobbly, fleshy old man on the TV might as well be Saint Paul. I remember learning about clean and unclean, then not being able to eat Hostess anymore, with their dreamy pillows of sweet, sweet lard. I remember learning about the Sabbath, then wondering if God was angry when I played outside on Saturday. I remember wondering if my prayers were valid if I didn't pray in King James English. And I remember learning about prophecy, and being traumatized by fears of the soon coming invasion of the European combine. I would have nightmares of being whisked away to Petra on a jet while my family was left behind. I could almost see the airport from my house, so the visuals were vivid. They would watch the jet as it ascended out of sight, and I would look down out the window, never to see them again. I went to a Catholic school. I remember arguing with the teacher, a nun, over Easter, and getting sent to the school psychiatrist for it. One day, I refused to go to mass. The psychiatrist chased me around the class room for 15 minutes until he caught me. I was allowed to stand in the entry doorway of the church until mass was over. I gave up career options for that system. I isolated myself from family and friends for that system. It caused me to marry a VERY wrong person, because I thought the world was going to end in 3-4 years anyway, so it wouldn't really matter long-term ...because there was no long-term. I was married by none other than Ron Weinland himself.
See how this story is spiraling downward?
Only to find out later on, halfway through my 30's, that he LIED about it all. He was a fraud! And everyone around him was a fraud. And I wasn't some secret saint that everyone would see in the Millennium and recognize, I was only an epic fool. This is the legacy of that man. He ruined lives by the tens of thousands. People who leave spend the rest of their days trying to cope with what it did to them.
So, yeah, anxiety.
I don't like to judge. I prefer to think of sin as a private affair, and my job is to help people not judge them. "You have sins, too? Welcome aboard!" I don't like to speculate on who is damned. That sort of thing is far above my paygrade. But I have one exception. And I bet you can't guess who it is.
38 years he's been burning in Hell, and only an eternity left to go.
38 yrs. push'n up daisies in a dirt nap...well HWA certainly did preside over a pyramid scheme of local hack ministers who once in a great while would "counsel" & allow stamp of "COG approval" onto a rare occasional "compatible" dating couple to find "COG approved" marriage.
But overall, the history of HWA's ministry under him were mini-me copies/clones of crusty Gerald Flurry-style Stalin/Ceaucescu iron fist marriage counselling sessions duty bound to separate most dating partners from pursuing marriage.
"You 2 aren't meant for each other...you 2 don't share income goals...the 2 of you don't agree on what method to screw your toothpaste tube caps back on...we the ministry know what's best for you, we will not marry you. And if you go get married oustide WCG then you both will miss the plane to Moab/Jordan". (& you lose your crown)
Although HWA can go ga-ga for his secretary Ramona young enough to be his GRANDDAUGHTER. What kind of hero is that?
10:59, you say your dad was a true believer and expect him to be among the 144,000? Well, guess who published the magazine by which he came to saving faith in Christ? After this you say that he (HWA) lied about it all?
Your testimony has no credibility.
10:46, your knowledge of prophecy is way off. Yet you are right about the fact that the Passover lambs were slain on the afternoon of Nisan 14, as per the Mishnah and several other sources (which some members and ministers refuse to accept), but the Lord wasn't slain on a Friday afternoon, since you cannot fit 3 days and nights between Friday and Sunday. Therefore He didn't eat the Passover meal on a Thursday. What He did do was eat the NT Passover supper on a Wednesday before His death the next day. And it was the Jews who ate the OT Passover supper on the Thursday after crucifying Him. This is what that "so-called apostate" (as some describe him) JWT corrected us on over 30 years ago now. The fact that there was a Sabbath following the crucifixion tells you that the crucifixion had to occur either on a Wednesday or Friday at first glance. But the 3-days-and-nights-in-the-grave blows the latter out of the water. Besides, you need a Thursday am crucifixion and Friday 1UB to achieve a Sunday resurrection. Only a Wed pm crucifixion can suffice and that puts the resurrection on Sabbath day's end (which is when it occurred according to Report of Pilate to Tiberius).
You are also in error over the subject of the 70th week, where it begins and ends, just as you are in error about the beginning and end of Antichrist's reign.
Your logic sounds intelligent but it's not. It probably confuses many of your listeners too, which is no different in the church where many are in disagreement, not knowing who or what to believe, which is befitting this Laodicean church era.
The part about HWA going ga-ga for his own daughter Dorothy for a ten year period is infinitely times more concerning to me than Ramona.
I have the most horrible time believing that HWA really did molest his daughter Dorothy, although I do READILY believe Steven Allwine did kill his wife Amy. The evidence seems clear on Amy's death, but I wish for a way, to see as clear (or close to it), of evidence if HWA abused Dorothy.
I kind of wish Loma had struck the man with a 1930's solid wood regulation baseball bat, if she knew of it. ⚾⚾⚾
Is there a way to show us some possibly solid evidence on HWA molesting Dorothy?
I don't recall any bible figure men in scripture molesting their own daughter unless I missed it. "If" Herbie did, then how many WCG people knew he (¿was?) the 1st (¿apostle?) to DO-SUCH-A-THING??
I have a sinking feeling that someone WILL be able to show us convincing evidence that it did happen. I am literally bracing myself for the potential of having it proved. I do not want to be like an Egyptian fisherman...in d'Nile one way or the other
does God really let it slide if an apostle molests his own daughter?
Pat,
I believe your last question begs the answer: "No. Furthermore, Armstrong was never an apostle and was not being used by God during this period of particular corruption which coincided with the time he supposedly was developing/plagiarizing his doctrine.
This site and "exitsupportnetwork.com" have articles on this very topic that lay out an overwhelming case. I also believe the COGs will jump to HWA's defense once some of the people with inside knowledge of it pass away.
Hi 1:00
You write: “But the 3-days-and-nights-in-the-grave blows the latter out of the water”
Know it doesn’t. You are reading the Bible too literally and not allowing for Hebrew idioms.
I will keep it short.
Mt 17:23a And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again.
Mt 12:40b so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mt 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
Mk 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
From Matthew Christ was to be raised “the third day” and “after three days”.
If you interpret “after three days” literally as ‘the fourth day’ on what day did Christ rise from the dead, the third day or the fourth day?
Lk 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
The theme that Christ would be killed and the third day rise again is noted seven times in the Gospels.
'the third day' is a Hebrew idiom:
"third day. In the Hebrew idiom, this means the day after tomorrow..." (S. Goldman, revised by Ephraim Oratz, Samuel, Soncino Books of the Bible, p.122).
The "third day" idiom is employed in both the Old Testament and New Testament:
Lk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
This idiom is incorporated in Jesus’ saying in 13:32.
Old Testament examples:
Ex 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes,
Ex 19:11a And be ready against the third day:
Lev 7:16 But if the sacrifice of his offering be a vow, or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:
Lev 7:17 But the remainder of the flesh of the sacrifice on the third day shall be burnt with fire.
Lev 19:6 It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if aught remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire.
Using the Hebrew idiom, the day of Christ’s death was day 1/today, which was a Friday; the tomorrow was the Sabbath, day 2; and the day after the tomorrow was Sunday, the third day.
No where in the Bible are non-atonement holy days referred to as Sabbaths; they are Sabbatons - the latter are less holy times as food preparation is allowed on those days.
In the year Christ died, according to the calendar employed by John, the first day of unleavened bread fell on a Sabbath - a Sabbaton occurring on a Sabbath.
"It has been taught: R. Eleazar b. Azariah says, ‘A day and a night constitute a span [onah], and part of a span [onah] is equivalent to the whole of it'..." (Jerusalem Talmud, Sabbath tractate chapter 9 part 3).
R. Eleazar b. Azariah was basically the next generation after Matthew and from the above it can be seen that a day and a night can have an idiomatic sense; see also the idiomatic sense of counting in regards to Cornelius - “four days ago” - Acts 10:30 - inclusive reckoning.
"The entire scheme is based upon the twisted interpretation of a single Bible text. The "three days and three nights" phrase is forced into artificial conformity with current English forms of speech, instead of the common usage of the people living at that time" (Joe Crews, Three Days and Three Nights, amazingfacts.org).
You also write:
“You are also in error over the subject of the 70th week”
Saying that I am in error doesn’t make it so - an argument is needed to prove the error.
See my graphic on the Seventy Weeks Telescopic Prophecy:
members.optusnet.com.au/futurewatch
The biggest thing was a couple years ago when someone from PCG called Vern and asked him. His answer was that sadly it was true. Now if anyone had a vested interest in it not being true it would be the Herbolators at PCG! I suspect they made the call to put an end to the rumors, and were taken by surprise.
Hi Pat. All is HEARSAY and repetition of one source...and quotation of malignant press. Also frustrated and nutcase family members. Yet. In the legal divorce deal that was made with Ramona one might be able to deduce IF between the stipulations one might deduce something like a gag order. Unfortunately No One has ever taken on the impossible task to retrieve the proceedings. Nick
The only way to get something other than hearsay was for Herbie himself or the victim Dorothy to publicly declare it. But, victims seldom did at that time particularly when it was over an extended period and the poor girl would blame herself and have much embarrassment. But, she did admit it to individuals such as David Antion which several state as a source.
However, there are individuals who have quoted Herbert saying "it is true" which is allowed in a court of law as Herbert having said it.
None of his children came to his defense regarding this and Herbert never denied it. There is also circumstantial evidence like why did Herbert bring Dorothy with him for months away from the family and Loma, and then why did Loma send their very young son Richard to stay with them in L.A. only for Herbert to send the 8 or 9 year old child by bus to an amusement park 2 hours away on a regular basis? Did Loma suspect it?
Why was the incest in the divorce hearings with Ramona? Couldn't it have been readily cleared up by Dorothy at the time? Why wasn't it? Why is it never said that Herbert denied it even to Ramona? Why is it never reported that HWA denied it happened even in private? But, in all instances he admitted it, sometimes blaming it on Loma.
You people keep asking why didn't he deny, why didn't he deny?
Why? To save himself?
Why didn't Christ deny all the accusations laid against him when on trial?
He who loses his life shall gain it and he who saves his life shall lose it.
I've only read a little about this incident and nothing is concrete, incontrovertible proof. He may have kept silent because it was going through the courts and he knew that if he denied it it would create an even greater controversy. Also, I question his daughter's mental state. Was she a rebellious sensitive sort? Christ said He would set 2 against 3 and 3 against 2 in households. (Luke 12:52) Even Absalom wanted to murder his father.
Besides, if he committed the sin in the 20's or 30's when he was being called by God into the ministry (which is very hard to believe that one would do that), you people don't know if he privately repented, since believing in Christ means that forgiveness is extended for all sins. So you want to retain someone's sin when he has been forgiven by God? Beware of this because you stand to lose your own salvation if you believe that.
There has to be a reason why God did not validate HWA's prophecy and time table in 1972-75, and the incest sin is a very plausible explanation as to why! Anyone who ever tells you that HWA did not set dates is a damnable liar! His lackeys actually taught us three math equations in Ambassador College Bible Class as positive proof of 1972-75, and then lied and backpedaled when it did not come to pass. In other words, they did a real good job of setting the example for what Dave Pack is doing today! WCG members were just as stupid back then as RCG members are today! They let him get away with it all and are still lying for him today!
This is YOUR church, brethren! See what they do???? Smell of that!!! It ain't no rose!!! Roll up the window and hold your nose! You got your dead skunk in the middle of the road, stinkin' to high heaven! C'mon, stink! (Fiddle solo) (Apologies to Loudon Wainright III)
Christ did not deny anything because it was foretold that he would be falsely accused and killed. This is in no way similar to Herbert Armstrong.
Herbert did deny financial malfeasance during the receivership. He denied and fought against the financial demands of Ramona during their divorce. He defended himself over people criticizing his failed prophecies and hierarchical authority.
But, he did not deny the incest.
And, it was not in the 1920's as Anon11:34 thought. It was from 1933-1943 which is the time in which he held himself as a special man of God and when he was developing his key teachings.
It's an ugly topic, but the case against HWA needs to be thoroughly investigated by those that view him as an apostle.
He was no apostle.
Backpedal...that's what B. Thiel did with the elaborate spinning mantle hide-and-go-seek hopscotch game.
"So you want to retain someone's sin when he has been forgiven by God? Beware of this because you stand to lose your own salvation if you believe that."
Bullshit. People still suffer consequences of their actions, including a tarnished reputation.
You don't know much do you...
Not even Richard's age. Nick
Nick,
You obviously are emotionally invested in the HWA Incest issue. I get it. But, it appears you have not looked into it as you know it would take an emotional toll on you. It is not simply one source as you said; there are many sources.
If he was forgiven, shouldn't he have spent the rest of his life to include with his many other ministry lessons, of detailed warning against anyone else molesting their offspring?
He told often about his smoking habit he conquered when younger. And of his conquering false beliefs about sabbath. Why didn't he also tell of conquering this damn molesting history? He sure wanted other organized churches to explain & fix their blunders.
and, no, not to save himself...but to save the next kid about to be abused by a stately, pious church official
3:26, the case needs to be thoroughly investigated? So you want to raise a dead man from the grave and put him on trial?
He who is dead has paid for his sins and awaits judgment from Christ.
So what do you want 5:40? To put HWA in the lake of fire? Only the Lord will decide what his end and your end will be.
People still suffer and reputations are tarnished? Welcome to the human existence under Satan's control but it is the gospel that frees you from that and teaches that all suffering and sin will be taken away. Like many, you are embittered with an intense envy for injustices done in this life, wanting to get revenge (like the woke culture), but you don't know why God made an allowance for sin and why Christ suffered in our stead. What? You never sinned against anyone? Or your sins are small? As much as you want HWA's blood to be spilled (which he did at death), your blood also will be required for the sins you committed if you think you are on the side of righteousness and justice.
Wait a few more years and see if HWA will not be in the first resurrection. (Because if you see him there you will know that the Lord has forgiven him of all his sins)
8:44, The COGs still treat HWA as an apostle and much of their doctrine is based on Armstrong claiming special revelation directly through God and then shared to his followers.
He developed his doctrine largely during the ten year period when he was abusing his daughter Dorothy: 1933-1943.
Do you believe God would be giving divine revelation to a man that was doing this to his daughter and lying and covering up? I'm sorry if you do.
This is not a matter of who is or is not forgiven; it goes directly to the validity of Armstrongism. I do not believe God works primarily through a man that is living such corruption. Thus, his claimed revelation through God is not valid and those many doctrines that are based on those revelations are fully questionable.
3:26 is hardly wanting HWA resurrected for human re-trial. Rather, the HWA critics such as 5:40 are expressing opinions in hope of making sure current COG-followers never let similar supposed crimes happen in church, crimes that hurt church folk or anyone.
LCG H.Q. allowing a bulletin board of shame & gossip is one example of hurt in particular. The LCG mailroom staff's attitude surely has roots from seeing HWA's ability to slide out of things he deemed "not a salvation issue".
12:30, don't be deceived. Three days and three nights is three days and three nights, as per Mt 12:40. Mt 27:63, noting the preposition "after", says that it has to be after three days or daylight periods. Under the Fri-Sun tale, you only have one full day plus a couple of hours. You make reference to the "third day" scriptures and argue from that that we don't understand the Heb idiom, which is nonsense. You are arguing over what is irrelevant since we have the evidence from Scripture that it had to be after three full days and three nights. Also, you have no proof that 1UB was on a regular Sabbath or even the year of the crucifixion. The translators used the "third day" phrase because they believed in the falsehood of the Fri-Sun doctrine (yet they didn't tamper with other convicting evidence) so they had to translate it with that bent in mind to fit a Sunday resurrection. You may disagree with me but bias always enters the picture, whether it's in the world, among Catholics or the COGs.
As I've said before, the English Catholics translated the scriptures in 1611 and even though it was done well it wasn't perfect, such as the translation of "Pascha" into Easter. Just as you have to be careful with translations, you need to be careful with the scholars that you depend on for truth.
No where are non-Atonement holydays referred to as Sabbaths? Wrong again. In John 19:31 he calls 1UB, a Thursday, a high day Sabbath, which tells you that Christ could not have been crucified on a Friday for the reasons stated above. In Lev 23 all the major fall holydays are called sabbaths.
You are spending too much time trying to contradict the truth from bad sources in order to fit your own schemas, when you should be doing the opposite.
As for the prophecy question, I could give you more proofs but if you can't handle the above, how can you handle something more mysterious?
Three hemeras (days) whole or part: Nisan 14, 15, 16
Three nux(s) (nights) whole or part: darkness Friday afternoon, Fri/Sat nights
I wouldn't fiddle with the sign of Jonah. A big ol' 3 is a 3, plain. 🧮
I suppose tHe real issue is whether one recognizes Jesus as the Christ. If some accept the argument that 72 hours in the grave isthe intent and they believe Jesus did that then I suppose the required fulfillment test was satisfied for them.
The same goes for those that believe it was less than a 72 hr period, the big thing is that they believe Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirement.
Problems would arise if some believed that Jesus being resurrected after only 40 hours of death indicated He was not the Savior.
Since both groups believe scripture was fulfilled and that Jesus is the Christ, then that is a good thing.
Please, I have looked into each and every source and researced the lives of everyone who clained so.............including cousins...........
Hi 12:59,
I am only wrong according to your interpretation not mine.
So we will have to agree to disagree.
Just one more thing:
You write:
“In Lev 23 all the major fall holydays are called sabbaths.”
In most translations two different Hebrew words are translated by one English word.
But it you look at the Hebrew, the fall holidays are called "sabbatons".
Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath [shabbaton], and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath [shabbaton].
Lev 23:39 on the first day there shall be a rest [anapausis], and on the eighth day a rest [anapausis] (LXX, Brenton).
Compare:
Leviticus 23:3a but the seventh day is the sabbath [shabbat] of rest [shabbaton], an holy convocation; (AV).
Leviticus 23:3a on the seventh day is the sabbath [sabbata*] a rest [anapausis], a holy convocation (Brenton, LXX).
* sabbata is accusative, plural, neuter (Acts 17:2 And according to Paul's custom, he went to them and for three Sabbaths (sabbata] [acc pl neut]) he reasoned with them from the Scriptures).
(The construct chain “Shabat shabbaton” is only used of the Sabbath and Atonement; not for the other holy days).
"... the terminological distinction between ‘Shabbat' and ‘Shabbaton' is preserved in the LXX and the annual feast days are not called Sabbaths. The Greek ‘Sabbaton' is used as the equivalent of the Hebrew ‘Shabbat' and the Greek ‘Anapausis' as the equivalent of the Hebrew ‘Shabbaton' " (Geert ter Horst, The Messianic Confusion About the Omer, Part V: The Appeal to the Septuagint, messianic613.wordpress.com, April 28, 2010).
Ex 16:23 He told them, “This is what the LORD commanded: Tomorrow will be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath day set apart for the LORD. So bake or boil as much as you want today, and set aside what is left for tomorrow.” (NLT).
Ex 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
Food has to be prepared/cooked the day before a Sabbath; but this does not apply to Sabbatons.
“The first and last days of the festival possess special sanctity but not quite the same as the Sabbath and Day of Atonement. The preparation of food on those particular days is exempted from the prohibition on performing labor...” (Nahum M. Sarna, Exodus, The JPS Torah Commentary, p.59).
Something went wrong, on last post, between copying from wordprocessor to blog resulting in a shortened url; the url for the graphic should have been: members.optusnet.com.au/futurewatch/373ecc60.png
Why is the calendar and days being discussed on this posting? It's about Herbert Armstrong and his false prophesies/teachings.
4:14 yep I agree. HWA like DT are false messiahs. If they were honest and told the truth that they weren’t/aren’t anyone special then it would’ve saved a lot of pain and suffering for the blind and gullible.
Re the 3 days/3 nights and HWA doctrine of Wed. death & Sat. resurrection I believe it was a Fri death & Sun resurrection as Bible counts inclusively not exclusively so Nisan 14 was day 1, Nisan 15 was day 2 and Nisan 16 was day 3.
Also John calls the Sabbath following the crucifixion as a high day. If it was a week day that was a high day then he would have said so, but he said it was a Sabbath and high day. The reason it was a high day was it was a double Sabbath ie weekly and annual Sabbath on the same day.
Interesting perspective. Its the ‘We have secret knowledge others don’t have.’ It makes everyone feel special and people like that.
5:36, did Jesus really say that He would be in the grave "in whole or part of three days"?Nonsensical casuistry.
1:13, interesting, you say the Greek Sabbaton is used as the equivalent of the Hebrew Shabbat? Then why do you call the feasts sabbatons in your 3rd to last paragraph if your objective is to declare the opposite? And why won't some members keep the Sabbath when Heb 4:9 (Sabbatismos, sabbath-keeping) advocates it?
The fall holydays may not be called "Sabbaths" (because they are technically feast days as opposed to regular Sabbaths) but nevertheless sabbatizing or sabbath-resting is done on them. Hence the word sabbathon (Heb) is used (Sabbatismos in Greek, Heb 4:9). Nothing new here really. Even Paul distinguishes holydays from Sabbaths in Col 2.
To argue that since UB feast days are not technically "Sabbaths", therefore 1UB could not have been on any other day but a Sabbath that year is specious reasoning in order to support the Fri-Sun resurrection theory.
This blog finds Nisan 14, 31 AD to be on a Wednesday:
https://blogs.bible.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Hebrew-Calendar-31-AD-reduced.pdf
Sabbathon is done not just on Shabbat but also on the feast days since the feasts are holy too.
Not only the three days in three nights testimony of the Lord witnesses against you but can you explain Mt 28:1, Mk 16:1-2, Lk 24:1 and John 20:1 adequately, verses that were poorly translated by the Catholics, who had something to hide? Mt 28:1 is worth a try because the first part can be safely translated, "at the close of the Sabbaths...", meaning what we always taught in WCG, that after the crucifixion occurred on a Wednesday two sabbaths had passed (1UB and regular) before the Lord was resurrected. This fits well with the 3 days and 3 nights and allows 1UB to be called a (high-day) sabbath.
5:03, are you agreeing with a woman who didn't like HWA's move from Quakerism to Millerism, and who says we "wanted" him to be everything that we imagined? Foolish people. WCG went from a handful of people to over 100,000 because Christ built it on truth. If you disagree, take heed what foundation YOU are building on. (1 Cor 3:10)
And Trump is what the people want? Certainly the Democrats don't want him. Maybe she is a Democrat? I see the MAGA motto isn't good enough for her even though that is what God intends for America. Maybe she approves of Biden's work in office, who is allowing criminals to cross the border to attack your neighbours?
Post a Comment