Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Several have been asking about the homes of Rod Meredith and others. An LCG member sent these.
Richard Ames
Lil'Jimmy's home. Bigger than daddy's!
Once Gerald Weston gets settled in we will have more.
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Anonymous
said...
I don't begrudge church leaders front certain Christian denominations being financially comfortable and living in McMansions. In my view, they earned their salary by enriching their members lives by teaching good morals. Generally speaking, they don't abuse their members. I've seen their members interviewed on TV, and they are happy being in their church. But I don't believe this is the case with Armstrong splinters. The body of evidence is of gross mistreatment and being constantly treated as child idiots. This is financial fraud.
All these large homes are a excellent example of Rods "other resources they very rarely touched.' The ministers can rent out these very rarely touched rooms, and give the money to the work. Lead by example, after you Rod.
To be very honest, I really don't believe that most of us would begrudge a loving pastor for having a nice home.
In defining a loving pastor, however, I mean one who would not ask one of his church members to do things that he would be unwilling to do himself. I mean a pastor who would extend the same patience and understanding to church members that he does to his own children, or close friends. I mean a minister who does not put on an attitude of entitlement, and who does not threaten and shame his members into giving until they are impoverished, and then turn his back when they have no funds to carry them through one of life's emergencies. I also mean a minister who will occasionally accept constructive criticism, and be transparent and accountable in all ways. One who rejoices when members get to enjoy God's blessings, rather than commanding them to turn over these blessings to the church.
The problem? None of the above fit the mold of the typical Armstrongite minister. As a group, they have no sense of empathy, are greedy, and teach blatant falsehood. The best thing that could possibly happen to them would be for these ministers and their wives to be required to live the median income level of their membership. Then, and only then, would the disconnects between entitlement and reality begin to be resolved. These ministers might actually become real spiritual guides, with compassion rooted in living the lifestyles which they force upon their members. Unless and until there are deep changes of the heart, the LCG and other ACOGs will continue to bear more resemblance to the Stanford prison experiments than a vibrant, loving, Christlike, and supportive church community.
Methinks Lil' Jimmy is being a very sinful lil' boy! How dare Lil' Jimmy “sit on hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars worth of money, property and other resources they very rarely touch [that could be used] to help do the Work of the living God at the very end of this age” ???
Perhaps Lil' Jimmy can make amends: Sell his house and donate the proceeds to "The End-Time Work" to avoid...a... Spanking. Ha! Lil' Jimmy can move into the Spankatorium basement and help with the household chores- like changing Spanky's diapers. I can just imagine it- Roderick C. Meredith's "Holy Spirit farts" spewing blobs of fecal matter as Lil' Jimmy tries to hold down Rod's flailing legs with one hand while reaching for a fresh nappie with the other.
On another post someone commented, "Was anyone else taught (or at least given the impression) that doing charitable works was something only "pagan" churches did?"
Just this morning I was talking with my wife, and this subject came up. Yesterday, she'd read Leah Remini's memoir Troublemaker, in which Leah wrote of wanting to know if her donations to Scientology's "charitable" causes were really being used as advertised. My wife related that - from the pulpit at WCG services on different occasions - members were specifically instructed NOT to give to any non-WCG charities.
As we all know by now, when we earmarked an offering to the (fill in the blank) Fund, to the WCG, we might as well have been earmarking it to the "We'll do with it as we well please and you just shut up and give" fund.
I agree that one should not begrudge these type of houses. And I have been in houses of other COG leaders too. Especially not after a lifetime of working. One is entitled to personal property.
The plea however to people "sitting" on dollars, while having underused assets themselves to me sounds like people will respond to that as proven by responses on this board.
What I completely disagree on with some and especialle BB is that all offering came to naught. Even WCG 100.000 dollar gifts to the private goodwill funds of US dictator lackeys like Sadat or Mubarak eventually helped people receiving from those funds. Or people benefitting from the current dictator in power that was supported by WCG funds.
Other WCG 100.000 dollar gifts to World Wildlife Fund may to the cynics have benefitted European royalty using Wilddparks as their private hunting area or whatever......on the other hand some wildlife is indeed recued by these organisations.
Other substantial donations were made to research for incurable diseases in Britain.
100.000 dollar gifts to the arts (Royal Opera House London.....many are benefitting from the 100.000 dollar gift to the Shakespeare Globe Theatre in London to this day......
These are just a few examples of the many causes people all over the world are to this day benefitting from the gifts of WCG money.
Yes I know it could have been better spend, differently, HWA seldom mentioned or honored the tithe payers while giving the gifts.
But anyone challenging the fact that millions to this day are benefitting in some way from the work (the Foundation wcg did) I will serve them with many more examples.....
Look at the work of the 9th circuit court. Other mediation services in the California area. All these organisations (like the World Court) were sponsored in some manner by WCG not so much by huge amounts of money (only 100.000 dollars in cases) but moreso in a critical phase of their inception or even conception.
wcg was there during critical phases of their start. Drawing diplomatic cloud (by the 20.000 dollar dinners, by flying judges to Japan and India, by sponsoring United Nations activities.
And yes I know I will not be able to convince BB or others on the political benefits people are still enjoying by these organisations. Some of you are focussing on the millions these organisation reap and drawing cloud by the likes of Angelina Jolie or other celebrities, not remembring that the birth of many important organisations like Unicef, the 9th circuit court etc was a difficult process without its friends in early phases of their development.
Nck
You are all making the mistake that WCG was a church. Therefore all the fuss on all these boards. I don't understand why there is all the bickering and disagreement and bible verses slinging on these sites while 90% of you have proven that wcg was nog a religious organisation. Than you start fighing or not posting my posts while I only give you the facts provable from many resources.
Living on the backs of the people. I stopped tithing a few years ago. I have little left and when I see these hirelings living the good life on my dime I want to sit down and cry. A fool and his money are soon parted.
These are large homes? Where do you all live, in outhouses? I dropped the Armstrong thing long ago, but seriously, house envy is a tad unbecoming. People live where they live, what do I care? This isn't a Joel Osteen/Kenneth Copeland/Benny Hinn thing.
Rod McNair and Gerald Weston both got nice inheritances when their fathers died. Maybe they can bail RCM out. McNair has land and farm animals. Perhaps he could sell and buy 1500 sq feet in town and turn the excess cash over to his puppet master.
Jim came to Charlotte to "take care of his dad". Maybe he could actually do that by selling his home and moving into Daddy's 5 bedroom house to consolidate finances enabling them to give a huge amount of money back to LCG. I won't hold my breath.
Those houses don't look too shabby, especially Lil' Jimmy's.
By the way, why does everyone always criticize Lil' Jimmy? Dose he not humbly, obediently go to Hawaii repeatedly, and stay in 5-star hotels without complaining? Around 1979, Rod Meredith got sent to Hawaii once by Herbert Armstrong, and Rod has never stopped complaining about it! It seems like the big shots get punished differently than the little people, and have to endure things that are unheard of by the little people.
The critics of Rod Meredith who call him a liar need to look again at the pictures of those nice houses and admit that Rod was actually right and telling the truth. They really are sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars, or even millions of dollars, of wealth. I'm just not sure why Rod let that slip out, unless his mind is continuing to go in his old age.
Since Herbert W. Armstrong died 30 years ago on January 16, 1986, it has been all downhill.
Since the Tkaches' complete and open apostasy in January 1995, it has gotten really bad.
Since this is now the Laodicean era of the church, nothing good is happening.
None of the splinter groups has gotten anywhere over the past 20 years or so. They all started with some people they got from the WCG, and have been spending all the time and money trying to mess up their minds with so-called new revelation (PCG), doctrinal upgrades (LCG), smooth intellectual deceits (UCG), and wild new prophetic guesses (RCG). They are all continuing to grow worse. Supporting them is worse than futile, since any money given to them would be used to continue to oppose, change, delete, and replace what HWA had taught.
12 30 Am says "why there is all the bickering and disagreement and bible verses slinging on these sites.." This is a typical complain of tyrants. Everyone should blindly believe the superfabulous bestest-best leader. As the late Dr Walter Martin once said: "Controversy for the sake of truth is a divine command."
NCK, I feel that you are missing some critical points.
1). WCG was sold to us as being a church. Moreover, it was imposed on us as being God's one and only true church. Because of this, we followed their instructions, and single sourced our spiritual input, and entire lifestyle to them..
2). We sacrificed, dug deep, and gave til it hurt for gun laps, and gospel emergencies. Apparently, from what you say, HWA indulged in even more fiduciary misconduct than the activities of which we were aware, probably in mostly self-serving ways. If I responded to his financial request (made in the name of Jesus Christ) for moneys to get the World Tomorrow on to some powerful new stations, and he then donated it to a court system, an opera house, or an organization that works with endangered species, that would be a huge betrayal. I can assure you that I would never contribute to an opera! I might be interested in assisting some of the Chicago Blues artists from the '50s and '60s who have to clean toilets because they were ripped off by their record companies, but certainly not to a bunch of elitist snobs!
Do you really believe the stuff you are posting? It seems as if you are just yanking our chains.
I completely agree that Joel Osteen/Kenneth Copeland/Benny Hinn also have large houses that these scumbags have not earned, by any stretch of the imagination.
But, so what? It's a shame that the US government gives these evil people a tax-free status.
Thankfully, our government has learned lessons from past experiences, so they're not currently punching out the nutty militia dudes who have taken over a bird sanctuary.
NCK, I feel that you are missing some critical points.
BB, Thanks again for your thoughtfull response, even if we don't seem to agree on all. I don't know why we don't because from my viewpoint you are far more balanced, kind or forgiving to cog leaders than I would ever be. Our disagreement probably stems from my anecdotical approach and me having no compassion for a religious viewpoint concerning wcg.
1). WCG was sold to us as being a church. Moreover, it was imposed on us as being God's one and only true church. Because of this, we followed their instructions, and single sourced our spiritual input, and entire lifestyle to them..
This I find something to contemplate on. Reading this I feel I must develop more empathy to those who bought into what was sold to them. In my wcg days I really really believed what Hwa was saying. "Don't believe me but believe your bibles." Personally I was rigourous in this approach. Hwa had a personal physician, I visited physicians when needed. Yes I also believed that God was more powerful than the physician in the end. I could give many more examples but I believe you get the jist.
I do realise now that as a seventies follower I did have more options in this regard than as a fifties or sixties follower.
2). We sacrificed, dug deep, and gave til it hurt for gun laps, and gospel emergencies. Apparently, from what you say, HWA indulged in even more fiduciary misconduct than the activities of which we were aware, probably in mostly self-serving ways. If I responded to
his financial request (made in the name of Jesus Christ) for moneys to get the World Tomorrow on to some powerful new stations, and he then donated it to a court system, an opera house, or an organization that works with endangered species, that would be a huge betrayal. I can assure you that I would never contribute to an opera! I might be interested in assisting some of the Chicago Blues artists from the '50s and '60s who have to clean toilets because they were ripped off by their record companies, but certainly not to a bunch of elitist snobs!
BB. I am not janking any chains. I donot BELIEVE. All that I mentioned is from the official wcg publications and personal experience. It was publicised, it was in the open, it was known by all.. Spending years on sites like these I realize fully that although it was all in the open.... like the sponsoring of disease research, sponsoring of the first chinese (peoples republic) scientists at Oxford University, the Admission of famous diplomats that wcg helped them at critical moments, like the emperor on okinawa... so what I was saying although it was all in the open, not many seem to have known to what it al pertained...
It is my guess that that is one of the reasons HWA called some dumb sheep.... So you call it a huge betrayal. I say it was all in the open. What you call yanking a chain, I call enlightening people that part of our tithes are still at work in many organisations around the world. Yes, like the 9thc circuit court, the world court (on you tube video's dr Singh talks on the early years that were very difficult and there was wcg flying him around to Israel, Japan, etc to draw diplomatic cloud for this world court in embryo.
Do you really believe the stuff you are posting? It seems as if you are just yanking our chains.
I know for sure that I love HWA less than you do. (since you are a christian) My purpose is to enlighten on some history that is relevant for today. (that's why I don't comment on any of the other cog threads on this website) Since they are all obsolete and irrelevant after hwa died and "all clearance" was revoked from wcg......
You know it was Ronald Reagan who ordered F de Klerck of South Africa to abandon Apartheid right after the ending of the Cold War. This was not because WASP america was against Apartheid and had not supported South Africa during the Cold War. It was just because the Soviet Union had collapsed. There is nothing moral in US foreign policy. Except for some of its emissaries who were sent as unofficial , beyond suspicion of political agenda. It was one of those that was sold to us as a religious man.
Anonymous said... 12 30 Am says "why there is all the bickering and disagreement and bible verses slinging on these sites.." This is a typical complain of tyrants. Everyone should blindly believe the superfabulous bestest-best leader. As the late Dr Walter Martin once said: "Controversy for the sake of truth is a divine command."
I like the quote and what you are saying, Though it has nothing to do with what I said.
I said that I don't understand people slinging bible verses at each other while openly declaring they are not believers. When I pose a rational non religious raison d etre for wcg they immediately put on their religious glasses while in the same sentence trying to disprove wcg as a religious organisation. It is called cognitive dissonance....my friend.
12:55 PM Cognitive dissonance and/or concept stealing. Sometimes, I think it's simply the challenge of the bible dual. There are 'independent Christians' (non church attending) here as well.
12:30 A.M, You are combining Armstrong donations with Tkach donations. The Armstrong era would never have donated money to the Globe Theatre. Have you read Gerald Flurrys condemnation of this donation? The same WCG name, but two different churches.
Perhaps the actvities you are describing were published and transparent. I was fairly well-connected up until I left in 1975, and not only did none of my contacts know any of the information you have presented, but the rank and file brethren most certainly knew nothing of it. My personal experience with the movement virtually stops in 1975. At that point, I ceased all communication with both members and ex members, and maintained that practice until about 2001. Also, I was a staunch atheist/agnostic up until about 2008. And, I was always more of a fan of GTA than HWA, although you would be correct in stating that I have lightened up my burden by forgiving both. Forgiving their activities, however, does not mean that I no longer consider them to be flaming assholes.
I'd have to see authentic documentation in order to believe that the Armstrongs had anywhere near the level of influence you are proposing. And even if they did, it was totally outside of their stated and primary field.
Oh how the mighty have fallen; these houses really are not too extravagant or too pricey in the Charlotte market. However these thieves have stolen what they have by stating they were uttering their false prophesies under the authority of God. They duped the poor into giving sacrificially. I hope the people now put the pressure on for the lords of LCG to sacrifice their assets for the church. Do any LCG readers want to start a petition to try hold their leaders accountable?
Below is the link to the modest ranch Lil’ Jimmy will be buying after he sacrifices his current house for the sake of the work. It is all one floor; no steps makes it easier for RCM, who will be coming to live with Jimmy, so that Jimmy can honor his pops with all the loving care RCM inspires from him. Since the house has four bedrooms, both Jimmy and RCM will have home offices, which will be convenient because they are also returning their churchmobiles.
Even though the new ranchhouse is unassuming and affordable at $110,000, it is still way beyond what the average LCG member can afford, so the Merediths will be systematically inviting all church families to join them for Sabbath dinners in the home they’ll dedicate to sharing with the church, HWA-style.
Oh what wonderful servant leaders we are blessed with in the LCG!
good Scripture, Matt. 19:21-22; good Christian Scripture and very relavent...
i think meredith and company, and his family each have room enough in their respective homes to accomodate two families each; they should be living communally if they are serious about focusing most all the money into the work...
nothing wrong with communal living, especially if one is serious about having treasure, comfort and reward in the Kingdom of Heaven rather than the budget busting pleasures of this present life...
but it is Written also: by their fruits you shall know them, and their excesses obviously are rotten fruit...
their excesses burn the candle what is the cogs on both ends in that that money could be better spent elsewhere, but also in that members become offended and refrain from tithing: money is being wasted, and no money coming in...it is a recipe for bankruptcy...
and regarding communal living: it would be an excellent excersize in humility and brotherly love if they what claim to be of Christ be living together in such close quarters, testing each other's patience and tolerance...
January 19, 2016 at 5:15 PM I don't agree with your interpretation. Christ was addressing a particular person rather than a giving a general instruction. The young man would probably have lost all his wealth when the persecution started, so Christ wasn't asking something special from him. It also implies that Christ might have made Him a apostle. The implication is there.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
BB since this thread has developed on topic I feel obliged to be brief. I admit yanking your chain a bit since I know you severed ties during the period I described. At the moment I feel duped a little too. I was sure the Royal Opera house got 100.000 dollar but by looking at the disclosed diplomatic correspondence I see hwa raised the amount to 185.000 dollars since 100.000 dollars was the entry fee for a plaque in the Lobby.
Now where do I fit in... If you were to look up the diplomatic correspondence to Margareth Thatcher office you would see that the diplomats go to great lenghts not to associate the royal family or the british government with wcg. (on instigation of the Tuits and Robinsons) They failed with the Royal family since Hwa met Charles and Diana at the Rothschildts founders of Israel. They succeeded with Margareth Thatcher.
However, my point in all this is that the Institute of the Royal Opera house goes to great lengths to introduce HWA to Thatcher because this great institution is of MAJOR importance to British culture and face of Britain. (I know you can appreciate that, I m a Jazz lover too.)
That is my only point. Not to prove that HWA was great or important in any sense. But to say that it is not true that tithings came to naught. As I was saying in a critical phase of this Institution wcg was part in saving the day. In investment terms this is called LEVERAGE.
Something the Rader family is very familiar with.
One more example if you would be interested in International Law . You can look up dr singh interview with Harold Hudson Channer on you tube. In this one hour interview he speaks on the difficulties of raising awareness on the Word Court in its inception phase. Again this is exactly what wcg helped him with during this phase. Now many international disputes are solved there public and in secret. Again now one knows HWA or WCG. But my point is those tithes did not completely come to naught.
I believe it is in the Feast video (behind the work) 1982 or so that HWA hands Mubarak a 100.000 dollar check for all the members to see.
I remember at the time not being shocked by the cheque but by HWA mentioning Allah. I thought at the time Allah is a completely different figure than The God family. Now I now better after studying the origings of Islam and its connection to the early Christians.
To the person who said I mix pre and post hwa grants. flurries commentary was not so much directed against the gift to the globe but tkach reasoning to get moa out of print claiming to be short on cash while at the same time giving to the red cross earth quake san franciso victims and the globe theater. Shakespeare is a big thing in pcg nowadays. You must make the connection with moa being out of print at the time.
BB you say you are forgiving them their activities. I assume you are pointing to their religious activities. Whereas my point would be that probably the only lasting thing hwa did right were his wordly activities. A matter of perspective like I posted in my 12:10 PM posting.
From a personal psychological perspective I take issue with the fact that HWA did not credit us enough while granting the donations. But I am satisified with seeing that many of those dollars are still at work in many countries around the world. But first you must understand the investment principle of leverage. Than you come to see who the real leaders of wcg were in the seventies. Than you understand why it collapsed at the same time the Soviet Union collapsed.
1) To expound a little more on the principle of (political) leverage. (since you were more of gta person) (Not proving any influence but just a tip of a bigger world.)
Senator Bob Dole ordered the preservation of all copies of The World Tomorrow broadcast episodes from 1972 through 1986 in the Film and Television archives of the United States Library of Congress. Dole was in attendance at the Anwar Sadat White House state dinner with Garner Ted Armstrong on April 4, 1977. The dinner was hosted by then President Jimmy Carter.[10][not in citation given] The World Tomorrow hosted by Herbert W. Armstrong along with the Garner Ted Armstrong 1970's television broadcasts, are the only television programs of a religious and biblical nature that are preserved in the national archives.[citation needed]
Garner Ted Armstrong became a personal friend to Anwar and Jehan Sadat after doing a series of interviews with the former Egyptian president for The World Tomorrow broadcast. GTA had also done a series of programs entitled Agriculture and the American Farmer, and Senator Dole was serving on the Senate committee for agriculture, at the time
2) In the worldwide news nov 10 1980 Stanley Rader makes a big point to the poor interviewer of not wanting to resign THE ministry, but contemplating to resign HIS ministry. I guess one can overlook his point easily if one is not schooled in legal matters.
Perhaps I am shooting myself in the foot again with this last posting. I will try and substantiate my points more next time. But looking up all this old stuff albeit very interesting is also damaging to me. So I work from memory most of the time and ... yes extrapolate bit .....
I m really sorry that I make so many mistakes when asked to provide proof. This makes me interrupt being off topic and feeling guilty in the process I make mistakes.
1) hwa did get the introduction to thatcher. I was mistaken by reading only part of the disclosed diplomatic correspondence
2) I cannot find the 100.000 gift to Sadat's personal foundation for goodwill. However I mixed that with the other 100.000 grant for the peace building in the sinai. This was however only the first of 10 installments amounting to a million dollars. I know the first installment was given but mubarak after sadat was shot but am not sure on the rest of the amount since the project never surfaced.. The Egyptians and Israelis lived for 30 more years in peace under Mubaraks rule as major US allies so I consider those grants well spend aswell. These grants are certainly leveraged grants since as you probably know Egypt is and has been for 40 years the largest recipient of US foreign "aid."
Some time ago I was asked to state my purpose to be here by an anoyed visitor.
a) Sheer fun. I'm laughing my pants of reading how you my family describe C packs efforts to revive an obsolete and outdated agricultura program. The manner in which you do this is unique and extremely gifted and funny.
b) To share. While wetting my pants in laugther about all the comedy/tragedy here I feel the urge to balance the frustration about "disappeared dollars" with the fact that millions benefitted from our gifts in an indirect way.
For example balancing the c-pack - agriculture fun.
Traveling with the unofficial ambassador was senior member of the Japanese Diet, Tokuo Yamashita
The June 11, 1979 Pastor General’s Report recounted that the trio “discussed at length a proposed project of triangular cooperation between the government and people of Tunisia, the United States and Japan in the domain of nutrition. The meeting was also attended by the minister of planning as well as the chief of staff of the cabinet of the prime minister.
Just as the painters of the Middle Ages who did not sign their religous paintings out of modest piety. We must suffer the fact that we (the church) will and weren't ever credited for the good that was done. (that is (doing small part in) helping create the world tomorrow = that is the globalised world that we live in today)
Just as bb is able to forgive some trespasses. I am able to suffer not getting credit by seeing most of us as the painter from the Middle Ages not getting credit.
If you don't like the interconnected, global, worldwide world we live in I urge you to compare percentages and statistics 1970's - 2016 in children getting an education, living beyond certain age, health, disease statistics etc. In percentages it is stunning.
We named tckach (the weaver) but as a matter of fact it was gii and giii that did its small part as truly one of the needles weaving a (faxless, e-mail, wifi less) world together at a certain time in a certain age once upon a time in a galaxy not far away.
NCK, This discussion has just taken a dive into the realm of ridiculousness if you would presume that I would need to have you explain "leverage" to me. Good grief!
The groups or individuals who exert the most leverage are the ones whose large and long term contributions make a critical difference to a cause or organization. Those are the ones whose effectiveness is most lasting. In the worlds of international charity, politics, and lobbying, $100,000 contributions are the equivalent of normal working mans' gifts of $25 or $50 to United Way, or the Red Cross. It gets you into the game, but the reality is that compared to, let's say, the multi-million dollar gifts of a Ted Turner, or a George Soros, $100,000 is just a drop in the bucket. The influence HWA and his handlers were looking for, and obtained, were the meetings and photo-ops he had with the powerful ones whose attention he craved. None of the groups to whom he gave our tithe money would have collapsed without his contributions. HWA always used multiple levels of leverage, personally, spiritually, and professionally, to get what he wanted.
I agree BB. I'm not going to let through any more of this conspiracy crap. I worked too long at HQ and was around too many of the people, to know that most of this is ridiculous nonsense. I have already stopped some of his nonsense, but some others slipped because it did not show up in the preview pane for approval. He can scream censorship all he wants...which he has already done.
It even sounds as if "new conspiracy kook" is in pain over his theories. I dumped all of the ACOG related theories when the biggest ones failed in 1975. Conspiracy theories rarely lend themselves to a happy, positive outlook. They tend to make one paranoid and very exploitable, especially if someone has convinced one that they are reality, secret gnosticism, or some such other nonsense.
Funny, some of these ideas are amusing, but I really think there is no basis for the general idea that HWA was a bigger wheel than we imagined. He did like to meet world leaders and be photographed with them, in fact anyone famous was good enough. What about Bobby Fisher who wrote quite a credible account of his associations with HWA? I believe I read it somewhere on the Painful Truth, or was it also on this site.
Isn't it a common obsession among those striving for success, to hang out with the rich and famous. I have been told there is an aura or charisma evident around them. Personally I haven't experienced too much in this area. I remember when I went to the dig in Israel around 1970 as a naive young student, I did get to have dinner with the rest of the diggers and HWA and a number of Israeli politicians. I remember being impressed with the casual dress of the important Israeli leaders - shorts etc., and their lack of pretense and pomp. Of course it was really hot. Admittedly HWA paid plenty to receive the indulgence of Israel, but also I felt there was genuine friendship between our leader and some of the leaders he courted. After all they are people like the rest of us.
The whole episode of love between WCG/HWA and Israel was somewhat tainted when some crazy guy tried to blow up the Al Aqsa mosque to make way for the new Jewish temple, and it was revealed that he was influenced by WCG literature.
Of course it was quickly denied that he was ever a member of our group, but people did become aware of some of our strange beliefs.
I agree with Nick or whoever he is that HWA was often very open about expenditures etc. It all leaves me wondering if HWA was really smart or just some kind of idiot like Chancy the Gardener in Being There.
indeed, anon 5:58pm, that was my point regarding communal living: in my experience with the cogs, they claim they have the Power of the Holy Spirit: so i propose to them that such power is an advantage in communal living, and that they should have no problem selling off their private selfish domiciles for the sake of "the work" (as was suggested by another poster) and living together in selfless communal housing where sharing and caring, coexistence, deferment, tolerance, etc., are the order of the day...
if they are what they say they are, let them prove it, or let them be seen as hypocrites...
who by his own admittance missed out on at least 25% of the experience.......
1933 - 1985 minus 1975 = at least 25%
self professed know it all concerning wcg whilst in reality being less than pseodo on the issues (even if it doesn't matter at all of course but just for the sake being clear)
I didn't miss out on 25% of the experience, I only directly participated in 25% of it, and believe me, if you are involved in something bogus, you don't even require twenty years to realize that something is clearly wrong. It's why I had no problem leaving after the "big one" (1975). The rest of my accumulated ACOG experience is vicarious, based on reading the mountain of anecdotal evidence shared on the internet.
Pseodo? (sic) It might be seem insensitive to say this, but even if you were to do something about your dyslexia or whatever else might be affecting your written communication, the logic behind your ideas and theories would probably still not gain any traction with most readers.
Chancy the Gardener. I think you nailed the personality type. Some people are extremely good in being succesful without any worldy credentials.
You mentioned Al Asqa briefly. I won't go into the details but I'm sure you are aware that this very event was a 9/11 event for every single arab. Every man, woman and child to this present day knows about this event and fears the Jews want to blow up Al Asqa.
This is old news of course and I wouldn't have reacted to it but I found that the biggest danger is coming from fundamentalist christians. (like the guy from 1968)
The fundamentalist jews cannot enter the place since they need a perfect red heiffer to cleanse themselves after the event. A fundamentalist farmer in Alabama nearly succeeded in breeding such red heiffer and donate it to the third templistst. Luckily for all of us the heiffer developed hairs in other colours so the waiting is for another succesful attempt.
50 comments:
I don't begrudge church leaders front certain Christian denominations being financially comfortable and living in McMansions. In my view, they earned their salary by enriching their members lives by teaching good morals. Generally speaking, they don't abuse their members. I've seen their members interviewed on TV, and they are happy being in their church. But I don't believe this is the case with Armstrong splinters. The body of evidence is of gross mistreatment and being constantly treated as child idiots. This is financial fraud.
All these large homes are a excellent example of Rods "other resources they very rarely touched.' The ministers can rent out these very rarely touched rooms, and give the money to the work. Lead by example, after you Rod.
I wonder what Flurry's home looks like and some of the top men in the UCG.
It pays to prey...
Yeah, Give it up Golden Gloves; emulate your role models Jesus & Paul who were Penniless Peripatetic Preachers
To be very honest, I really don't believe that most of us would begrudge a loving pastor for having a nice home.
In defining a loving pastor, however, I mean one who would not ask one of his church members to do things that he would be unwilling to do himself. I mean a pastor who would extend the same patience and understanding to church members that he does to his own children, or close friends. I mean a minister who does not put on an attitude of entitlement, and who does not threaten and shame his members into giving until they are impoverished, and then turn his back when they have no funds to carry them through one of life's emergencies. I also mean a minister who will occasionally accept constructive criticism, and be transparent and accountable in all ways. One who rejoices when members get to enjoy God's blessings, rather than commanding them to turn over these blessings to the church.
The problem? None of the above fit the mold of the typical Armstrongite minister. As a group, they have no sense of empathy, are greedy, and teach blatant falsehood. The best thing that could possibly happen to them would be for these ministers and their wives to be required to live the median income level of their membership. Then, and only then, would the disconnects between entitlement and reality begin to be resolved. These ministers might actually become real spiritual guides, with compassion rooted in living the lifestyles which they force upon their members. Unless and until there are deep changes of the heart, the LCG and other ACOGs will continue to bear more resemblance to the Stanford prison experiments than a vibrant, loving, Christlike, and supportive church community.
BB
Methinks Lil' Jimmy is being a very sinful lil' boy!
How dare Lil' Jimmy “sit on hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars worth of money, property and other resources they very rarely touch [that could be used] to help do the Work of the living God at the very end of this age” ???
Perhaps Lil' Jimmy can make amends: Sell his house and donate the proceeds to "The End-Time Work" to avoid...a... Spanking.
Ha! Lil' Jimmy can move into the Spankatorium basement and help with the household chores- like changing Spanky's diapers.
I can just imagine it- Roderick C. Meredith's "Holy Spirit farts" spewing blobs of fecal matter as Lil' Jimmy tries to hold down Rod's flailing legs with one hand while reaching for a fresh nappie with the other.
LOL!
On another post someone commented, "Was anyone else taught (or at least given the impression) that doing charitable works was something only "pagan" churches did?"
Just this morning I was talking with my wife, and this subject came up.
Yesterday, she'd read Leah Remini's memoir Troublemaker, in which Leah wrote of wanting to know if her donations to Scientology's "charitable" causes were really being used as advertised.
My wife related that - from the pulpit at WCG services on different occasions - members were specifically instructed NOT to give to any non-WCG charities.
As we all know by now, when we earmarked an offering to the (fill in the blank) Fund, to the WCG, we might as well have been earmarking it to the "We'll do with it as we well please and you just shut up and give" fund.
$panky can't take his $20 million* with him where he's going,
it's too hot for paper money & Gold there!
*estimated
I agree that one should not begrudge these type of houses.
And I have been in houses of other COG leaders too.
Especially not after a lifetime of working. One is entitled to personal property.
The plea however to people "sitting" on dollars, while having underused assets themselves to me sounds like people will respond to that as proven by responses on this board.
What I completely disagree on with some and especialle BB is that all offering came to naught.
Even WCG 100.000 dollar gifts to the private goodwill funds of US dictator lackeys like Sadat or Mubarak eventually helped people receiving from those funds. Or people benefitting from the current dictator in power that was supported by WCG funds.
Other WCG 100.000 dollar gifts to World Wildlife Fund may to the cynics have benefitted European royalty using Wilddparks as their private hunting area or whatever......on the other hand some wildlife is indeed recued by these organisations.
Other substantial donations were made to research for incurable diseases in Britain.
100.000 dollar gifts to the arts (Royal Opera House London.....many are benefitting from the 100.000 dollar gift to the Shakespeare Globe Theatre in London to this day......
These are just a few examples of the many causes people all over the world are to this day benefitting from the gifts of WCG money.
Yes I know it could have been better spend, differently, HWA seldom mentioned or honored the tithe payers while giving the gifts.
But anyone challenging the fact that millions to this day are benefitting in some way from the work (the Foundation wcg did) I will serve them with many more examples.....
Look at the work of the 9th circuit court. Other mediation services in the California area.
All these organisations (like the World Court) were sponsored in some manner by WCG not so much by huge amounts of money (only 100.000 dollars in cases) but moreso in a critical phase of their inception or even conception.
wcg was there during critical phases of their start. Drawing diplomatic cloud (by the 20.000 dollar dinners, by flying judges to Japan and India, by sponsoring United Nations activities.
And yes I know I will not be able to convince BB or others on the political benefits people are still enjoying by these organisations. Some of you are focussing on the millions these organisation reap and drawing cloud by the likes of Angelina Jolie or other celebrities, not remembring that the birth of many important organisations like Unicef, the 9th circuit court etc was a difficult process without its friends in early phases of their development.
Nck
You are all making the mistake that WCG was a church. Therefore all the fuss on all these boards. I don't understand why there is all the bickering and disagreement and bible verses slinging on these sites while 90% of you have proven that wcg was nog a religious organisation. Than you start fighing or not posting my posts while I only give you the facts provable from many resources.
After searching around on Zillow.com a real estate valuation site, I would put the value of these homes in the $400 to $600k range for Charlotte NC.
Living on the backs of the people.
I stopped tithing a few years ago.
I have little left and when I see these hirelings living the good life on my dime I want to sit down and cry.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
These are large homes? Where do you all live, in outhouses? I dropped the Armstrong thing long ago, but seriously, house envy is a tad unbecoming. People live where they live, what do I care? This isn't a Joel Osteen/Kenneth Copeland/Benny Hinn thing.
Bob that was a perfect descriptive of Rod Meredith. I have known him personally for many years and you are spot on.
Rod McNair and Gerald Weston both got nice inheritances when their fathers died. Maybe they can bail RCM out. McNair has land and farm animals. Perhaps he could sell and buy 1500 sq feet in town and turn the excess cash over to his puppet master.
Jim came to Charlotte to "take care of his dad". Maybe he could actually do that by selling his home and moving into Daddy's 5 bedroom house to consolidate finances enabling them to give a huge amount of money back to LCG. I won't hold my breath.
Those houses don't look too shabby, especially Lil' Jimmy's.
By the way, why does everyone always criticize Lil' Jimmy? Dose he not humbly, obediently go to Hawaii repeatedly, and stay in 5-star hotels without complaining? Around 1979, Rod Meredith got sent to Hawaii once by Herbert Armstrong, and Rod has never stopped complaining about it! It seems like the big shots get punished differently than the little people, and have to endure things that are unheard of by the little people.
The critics of Rod Meredith who call him a liar need to look again at the pictures of those nice houses and admit that Rod was actually right and telling the truth. They really are sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars, or even millions of dollars, of wealth. I'm just not sure why Rod let that slip out, unless his mind is continuing to go in his old age.
Nck says...
"Than[sic} you start fighing or not posting my posts while I only give you the facts.
Nick's "facts" are so retro and comical that we should pray for his brain to someday 'get' relevant points.
Since Herbert W. Armstrong died 30 years ago on January 16, 1986, it has been all downhill.
Since the Tkaches' complete and open apostasy in January 1995, it has gotten really bad.
Since this is now the Laodicean era of the church, nothing good is happening.
None of the splinter groups has gotten anywhere over the past 20 years or so. They all started with some people they got from the WCG, and have been spending all the time and money trying to mess up their minds with so-called new revelation (PCG), doctrinal upgrades (LCG), smooth intellectual deceits (UCG), and wild new prophetic guesses (RCG). They are all continuing to grow worse. Supporting them is worse than futile, since any money given to them would be used to continue to oppose, change, delete, and replace what HWA had taught.
12 30 Am says "why there is all the bickering and disagreement and bible verses slinging on these sites.." This is a typical complain of tyrants. Everyone should blindly believe the superfabulous bestest-best leader.
As the late Dr Walter Martin once said:
"Controversy for the sake of truth is a divine command."
NCK, I feel that you are missing some critical points.
1). WCG was sold to us as being a church. Moreover, it was imposed on us as being God's one and only true church. Because of this, we followed their instructions, and single sourced our spiritual input, and entire lifestyle to them..
2). We sacrificed, dug deep, and gave til it hurt for gun laps, and gospel emergencies. Apparently, from what you say, HWA indulged in even more fiduciary misconduct than the activities of which we were aware, probably in mostly self-serving ways. If I responded to his financial request (made in the name of Jesus Christ) for moneys to get the World Tomorrow on to some powerful new stations, and he then donated it to a court system, an opera house, or an organization that works with endangered species, that would be a huge betrayal. I can assure you that I would never contribute to an opera! I might be interested in assisting some of the Chicago Blues artists from the '50s and '60s who have to clean toilets because they were ripped off by their record companies, but certainly not to a bunch of elitist snobs!
Do you really believe the stuff you are posting? It seems as if you are just yanking our chains.
BB
I completely agree that Joel Osteen/Kenneth Copeland/Benny Hinn also have large houses that these scumbags have not earned, by any stretch of the imagination.
But, so what? It's a shame that the US government gives these evil people a tax-free status.
Thankfully, our government has learned lessons from past experiences, so they're not currently punching out the nutty militia dudes who have taken over a bird sanctuary.
Those people are total morons.
NCK, I feel that you are missing some critical points.
BB, Thanks again for your thoughtfull response, even if we don't seem to agree on all.
I don't know why we don't because from my viewpoint you are far more balanced, kind or forgiving to cog leaders than I would ever be. Our disagreement probably stems from my anecdotical approach and me having no compassion for a religious viewpoint concerning wcg.
1). WCG was sold to us as being a church. Moreover, it was imposed on us as being God's one and only true church. Because of this, we followed their instructions, and single sourced our spiritual input, and entire lifestyle to them..
This I find something to contemplate on.
Reading this I feel I must develop more empathy to those who bought into what was sold to them.
In my wcg days I really really believed what Hwa was saying. "Don't believe me but believe your bibles." Personally I was rigourous in this approach. Hwa had a personal physician, I visited physicians when needed. Yes I also believed that God was more powerful than the physician in the end. I could give many more examples but I believe you get the jist.
I do realise now that as a seventies follower I did have more options in this regard than as a fifties or sixties follower.
2). We sacrificed, dug deep, and gave til it hurt for gun laps, and gospel emergencies. Apparently, from what you say, HWA indulged in even more fiduciary misconduct than the activities of which we were aware, probably in mostly self-serving ways. If I responded to
his financial request (made in the name of Jesus Christ) for moneys to get the World Tomorrow on to some powerful new stations, and he then donated it to a court system, an opera house, or an organization that works with endangered species, that would be a huge betrayal. I can assure you that I would never contribute to an opera! I might be interested in assisting some of the Chicago Blues artists from the '50s and '60s who have to clean toilets because they were ripped off by their record companies, but certainly not to a bunch of elitist snobs!
BB. I am not janking any chains. I donot BELIEVE. All that I mentioned is from the official wcg publications and personal experience. It was publicised, it was in the open, it was known by all.. Spending years on sites like these I realize fully that although it was all in the open.... like the sponsoring of disease research, sponsoring of the first chinese (peoples republic) scientists at Oxford University, the Admission of famous diplomats that wcg helped them at critical moments, like the emperor on okinawa... so what I was saying although it was all in the open, not many seem to have known to what it al pertained...
It is my guess that that is one of the reasons HWA called some dumb sheep....
So you call it a huge betrayal. I say it was all in the open. What you call yanking a chain, I call enlightening people that part of our tithes are still at work in many organisations around the world. Yes, like the 9thc circuit court, the world court (on you tube video's dr Singh talks on the early years that were very difficult and there was wcg flying him around to Israel, Japan, etc to draw diplomatic cloud for this world court in embryo.
Do you really believe the stuff you are posting? It seems as if you are just yanking our chains.
I know for sure that I love HWA less than you do. (since you are a christian) My purpose is to enlighten on some history that is relevant for today. (that's why I don't comment on any of the other cog threads on this website) Since they are all obsolete and irrelevant after hwa died and "all clearance" was revoked from wcg......
You know it was Ronald Reagan who ordered F de Klerck of South Africa to abandon Apartheid right after the ending of the Cold War. This was not because WASP america was against Apartheid and had not supported South Africa during the Cold War. It was just because the Soviet Union had collapsed. There is nothing moral in US foreign policy. Except for some of its emissaries who were sent as unofficial , beyond suspicion of political agenda. It was one of those that was sold to us as a religious man.
NCK
BB
I saw a picture on "the astonishing school of gifted nerds" about people looking at the same thing and coming to different conclusions.
The foreign painter paints
psyco
the
rapist
while the mad doctor berates him for not having spelled his title of psychotherapist right......
nck
Anonymous said...
12 30 Am says "why there is all the bickering and disagreement and bible verses slinging on these sites.." This is a typical complain of tyrants. Everyone should blindly believe the superfabulous bestest-best leader.
As the late Dr Walter Martin once said:
"Controversy for the sake of truth is a divine command."
I like the quote and what you are saying,
Though it has nothing to do with what I said.
I said that I don't understand people slinging bible verses at each other while openly declaring they are not believers. When I pose a rational non religious raison d etre for wcg they immediately put on their religious glasses while in the same sentence trying to disprove wcg as a religious organisation. It is called cognitive dissonance....my friend.
NCK
12:55 PM Cognitive dissonance and/or concept stealing. Sometimes, I think it's simply the challenge of the bible dual. There are 'independent Christians' (non church attending) here as well.
12:30 A.M, You are combining Armstrong donations with Tkach donations. The Armstrong era would never have donated money to the Globe Theatre. Have you read Gerald Flurrys condemnation of this donation? The same WCG name, but two different churches.
NCK,
Perhaps the actvities you are describing were published and transparent. I was fairly well-connected up until I left in 1975, and not only did none of my contacts know any of the information you have presented, but the rank and file brethren most certainly knew nothing of it. My personal experience with the movement virtually stops in 1975. At that point, I ceased all communication with both members and ex members, and maintained that practice until about 2001. Also, I was a staunch atheist/agnostic up until about 2008. And, I was always more of a fan of GTA than HWA, although you would be correct in stating that I have lightened up my burden by forgiving both. Forgiving their activities, however, does not mean that I no longer consider them to be flaming assholes.
I'd have to see authentic documentation in order to believe that the Armstrongs had anywhere near the level of influence you are proposing. And even if they did, it was totally outside of their stated and primary field.
BB
Oh how the mighty have fallen; these houses really are not too extravagant or too pricey in the Charlotte market. However these thieves have stolen what they have by stating they were uttering their false prophesies under the authority of God. They duped the poor into giving sacrificially.
I hope the people now put the pressure on for the lords of LCG to sacrifice their assets for the church. Do any LCG readers want to start a petition to try hold their leaders accountable?
Matthew 19:21-22
Below is the link to the modest ranch Lil’ Jimmy will be buying after he sacrifices his current house for the sake of the work. It is all one floor; no steps makes it easier for RCM, who will be coming to live with Jimmy, so that Jimmy can honor his pops with all the loving care RCM inspires from him. Since the house has four bedrooms, both Jimmy and RCM will have home offices, which will be convenient because they are also returning their churchmobiles.
yhttp://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Charlotte-NC/pmf,pf_pt/house_type/6202236_zpid/24043_rid/35.509871,-80.161057,34.909584,-81.501389_rect/9_zm/?3col=true
Even though the new ranchhouse is unassuming and affordable at $110,000, it is still way beyond what the average LCG member can afford, so the Merediths will be systematically inviting all church families to join them for Sabbath dinners in the home they’ll dedicate to sharing with the church, HWA-style.
Oh what wonderful servant leaders we are blessed with in the LCG!
Well what does a very poor member live in short of a tent?
http://tinyurl.com/j7mjxg2
There's a better buy for Lil’ Jimmy at $55,000 at the following:
http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Charlotte-NC/pmf,pf_pt/house_type/6248023_zpid/24043_rid/50000-75000_price/182-273_mp/35.391289,-80.173417,34.979377,-81.272049_rect/9_zm/
This way, there's more money still to donate to the work. There's two rooms so Rod can visit or move with with him.
good Scripture, Matt. 19:21-22; good Christian Scripture and very relavent...
i think meredith and company, and his family each have room enough in their respective homes to accomodate two families each; they should be living communally if they are serious about focusing most all the money into the work...
nothing wrong with communal living, especially if one is serious about having treasure, comfort and reward in the Kingdom of Heaven rather than the budget busting pleasures of this present life...
but it is Written also: by their fruits you shall know them, and their excesses obviously are rotten fruit...
their excesses burn the candle what is the cogs on both ends in that that money could be better spent elsewhere, but also in that members become offended and refrain from tithing: money is being wasted, and no money coming in...it is a recipe for bankruptcy...
and regarding communal living: it would be an excellent excersize in humility and brotherly love if they what claim to be of Christ be living together in such close quarters, testing each other's patience and tolerance...
January 19, 2016 at 5:15 PM
I don't agree with your interpretation. Christ was addressing a particular person rather than a giving a general instruction. The young man would probably have lost all his wealth when the persecution started, so Christ wasn't asking something special from him. It also implies that Christ might have made Him a apostle. The implication is there.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
5:15 PM, If you, or anyone else wants to test your 'patience and tolerance,' let me introduce you to my sister and brother in law.
BB
since this thread has developed on topic I feel obliged to be brief.
I admit yanking your chain a bit since I know you severed ties during the period I described.
At the moment I feel duped a little too. I was sure the Royal Opera house got 100.000 dollar but by looking at the disclosed diplomatic correspondence I see hwa raised the amount to 185.000 dollars since 100.000 dollars was the entry fee for a plaque in the Lobby.
Now where do I fit in...
If you were to look up the diplomatic correspondence to Margareth Thatcher office you would see that the diplomats go to great lenghts not to associate the royal family or the british government with wcg. (on instigation of the Tuits and Robinsons) They failed with the Royal family since Hwa met Charles and Diana at the Rothschildts founders of Israel. They succeeded with Margareth Thatcher.
However, my point in all this is that the Institute of the Royal Opera house goes to great lengths to introduce HWA to Thatcher because this great institution is of MAJOR importance to British culture and face of Britain. (I know you can appreciate that, I m a Jazz lover too.)
That is my only point. Not to prove that HWA was great or important in any sense. But to say that it is not true that tithings came to naught. As I was saying in a critical phase of this Institution wcg was part in saving the day. In investment terms this is called LEVERAGE.
Something the Rader family is very familiar with.
One more example if you would be interested in International Law . You can look up dr singh interview with Harold Hudson Channer on you tube. In this one hour interview he speaks on the difficulties of raising awareness on the Word Court in its inception phase. Again this is exactly what wcg helped him with during this phase. Now many international disputes are solved there public and in secret.
Again now one knows HWA or WCG. But my point is those tithes did not completely come to naught.
I believe it is in the Feast video (behind the work) 1982 or so that HWA hands Mubarak a 100.000 dollar check for all the members to see.
I remember at the time not being shocked by the cheque but by HWA mentioning Allah. I thought at the time Allah is a completely different figure than The God family. Now I now better after studying the origings of Islam and its connection to the early Christians.
To the person who said I mix pre and post hwa grants. flurries commentary was not so much directed against the gift to the globe but tkach reasoning to get moa out of print claiming to be short on cash while at the same time giving to the red cross earth quake san franciso victims and the globe theater. Shakespeare is a big thing in pcg nowadays. You must make the connection with moa being out of print at the time.
BB you say you are forgiving them their activities. I assume you are pointing to their religious activities. Whereas my point would be that probably the only lasting thing hwa did right were his wordly activities. A matter of perspective like I posted in my 12:10 PM posting.
From a personal psychological perspective I take issue with the fact that HWA did not credit us enough while granting the donations. But I am satisified with seeing that many of those dollars are still at work in many countries around the world.
But first you must understand the investment principle of leverage. Than you come to see who the real leaders of wcg were in the seventies. Than you understand why it collapsed at the same time the Soviet Union collapsed.
Perhaps later I will look up other "proof" BB.
2 more things
1) To expound a little more on the principle of (political) leverage. (since you were more of gta person) (Not proving any influence but just a tip of a bigger world.)
Senator Bob Dole ordered the preservation of all copies of The World Tomorrow broadcast episodes from 1972 through 1986 in the Film and Television archives of the United States Library of Congress. Dole was in attendance at the Anwar Sadat White House state dinner with Garner Ted Armstrong on April 4, 1977. The dinner was hosted by then President Jimmy Carter.[10][not in citation given] The World Tomorrow hosted by Herbert W. Armstrong along with the Garner Ted Armstrong 1970's television broadcasts, are the only television programs of a religious and biblical nature that are preserved in the national archives.[citation needed]
Garner Ted Armstrong became a personal friend to Anwar and Jehan Sadat after doing a series of interviews with the former Egyptian president for The World Tomorrow broadcast. GTA had also done a series of programs entitled Agriculture and the American Farmer, and Senator Dole was serving on the Senate committee for agriculture, at the time
2) In the worldwide news nov 10 1980 Stanley Rader makes a big point to the poor interviewer of not wanting to resign THE ministry, but contemplating to resign HIS ministry. I guess one can overlook his point easily if one is not schooled in legal matters.
Perhaps I am shooting myself in the foot again with this last posting. I will try and substantiate my points more next time. But looking up all this old stuff albeit very interesting is also damaging to me. So I work from memory most of the time and ... yes extrapolate bit .....
NCK
BB,
I m really sorry that I make so many mistakes when asked to provide proof.
This makes me interrupt being off topic and feeling guilty in the process I make mistakes.
1) hwa did get the introduction to thatcher. I was mistaken by reading only part of the disclosed diplomatic correspondence
2) I cannot find the 100.000 gift to Sadat's personal foundation for goodwill.
However I mixed that with the other 100.000 grant for the peace building in the sinai.
This was however only the first of 10 installments amounting to a million dollars.
I know the first installment was given but mubarak after sadat was shot but am not sure on the rest of the amount since the project never surfaced.. The Egyptians and Israelis lived for 30 more years in peace under Mubaraks rule as major US allies so I consider those grants well spend aswell. These grants are certainly leveraged grants since as you probably know Egypt is and has been for 40 years the largest recipient of US foreign "aid."
NCK
Some time ago I was asked to state my purpose to be here by an anoyed visitor.
a) Sheer fun. I'm laughing my pants of reading how you my family describe C packs efforts to revive an obsolete and outdated agricultura program. The manner in which you do this is unique and extremely gifted and funny.
b) To share. While wetting my pants in laugther about all the comedy/tragedy here I feel the urge to balance the frustration about "disappeared dollars" with the fact that millions benefitted from our gifts in an indirect way.
For example balancing the c-pack - agriculture fun.
Traveling with the unofficial ambassador was senior member of the Japanese Diet, Tokuo Yamashita
The June 11, 1979 Pastor General’s Report recounted that the trio “discussed at length a proposed project of triangular cooperation between the government and people of Tunisia, the United States and Japan in the domain of nutrition. The meeting was also attended by the minister of planning as well as the chief of staff of the cabinet of the prime minister.
Just as the painters of the Middle Ages who did not sign their religous paintings out of modest piety. We must suffer the fact that we (the church) will and weren't ever credited for the good that was done. (that is (doing small part in) helping create the world tomorrow = that is the globalised world that we live in today)
Just as bb is able to forgive some trespasses. I am able to suffer not getting credit by seeing most of us as the painter from the Middle Ages not getting credit.
If you don't like the interconnected, global, worldwide world we live in I urge you to compare percentages and statistics 1970's - 2016 in children getting an education, living beyond certain age, health, disease statistics etc. In percentages it is stunning.
We named tckach (the weaver) but as a matter of fact it was gii and giii that did its small part as truly one of the needles weaving a (faxless, e-mail, wifi less) world together at a certain time in a certain age once upon a time in a galaxy not far away.
nck
NCK, This discussion has just taken a dive into the realm of ridiculousness if you would presume that I would need to have you explain "leverage" to me. Good grief!
The groups or individuals who exert the most leverage are the ones whose large and long term contributions make a critical difference to a cause or organization. Those are the ones whose effectiveness is most lasting. In the worlds of international charity, politics, and lobbying, $100,000 contributions are the equivalent of normal working mans' gifts of $25 or $50 to United Way, or the Red Cross. It gets you into the game, but the reality is that compared to, let's say, the multi-million dollar gifts of a Ted Turner, or a George Soros, $100,000 is just a drop in the bucket. The influence HWA and his handlers were looking for, and obtained, were the meetings and photo-ops he had with the powerful ones whose attention he craved. None of the groups to whom he gave our tithe money would have collapsed without his contributions. HWA always used multiple levels of leverage, personally, spiritually, and professionally, to get what he wanted.
BB
I agree BB. I'm not going to let through any more of this conspiracy crap. I worked too long at HQ and was around too many of the people, to know that most of this is ridiculous nonsense. I have already stopped some of his nonsense, but some others slipped because it did not show up in the preview pane for approval. He can scream censorship all he wants...which he has already done.
It even sounds as if "new conspiracy kook" is in pain over his theories. I dumped all of the ACOG related theories when the biggest ones failed in 1975. Conspiracy theories rarely lend themselves to a happy, positive outlook. They tend to make one paranoid and very exploitable, especially if someone has convinced one that they are reality, secret gnosticism, or some such other nonsense.
BB
Funny, some of these ideas are amusing, but I really think there is no basis for the general idea that HWA was a bigger wheel than we imagined. He did like to meet world leaders and be photographed with them, in fact anyone famous was good enough. What about Bobby Fisher who wrote quite a credible account of his associations with HWA? I believe I read it somewhere on the Painful Truth, or was it also on this site.
Isn't it a common obsession among those striving for success, to hang out with the rich and famous. I have been told there is an aura or charisma evident around them. Personally I haven't experienced too much in this area. I remember when I went to the dig in Israel around 1970 as a naive young student, I did get to have dinner with the rest of the diggers and HWA and a number of Israeli politicians. I remember being impressed with the casual dress of the important Israeli leaders - shorts etc., and their lack of pretense and pomp. Of course it was really hot. Admittedly HWA paid plenty to receive the indulgence of Israel, but also I felt there was genuine friendship between our leader and some of the leaders he courted. After all they are people like the rest of us.
The whole episode of love between WCG/HWA and Israel was somewhat tainted when some crazy guy tried to blow up the Al Aqsa mosque to make way for the new Jewish temple, and it was revealed that he was influenced by WCG literature.
Of course it was quickly denied that he was ever a member of our group, but people did become aware of some of our strange beliefs.
I agree with Nick or whoever he is that HWA was often very open about expenditures etc. It all leaves me wondering if HWA was really smart or just some kind of idiot like Chancy the Gardener in Being There.
indeed, anon 5:58pm, that was my point regarding communal living: in my experience with the cogs, they claim they have the Power of the Holy Spirit: so i propose to them that such power is an advantage in communal living, and that they should have no problem selling off their private selfish domiciles for the sake of "the work" (as was suggested by another poster) and living together in selfless communal housing where sharing and caring, coexistence, deferment, tolerance, etc., are the order of the day...
if they are what they say they are, let them prove it, or let them be seen as hypocrites...
its seems nck has thrown the establishment here a knuckle ball...
Not so, 8:48. He is pseudo. Just likes to baffle folks with bull fertilizer.
BB
says bb
who by his own admittance missed out on at least 25% of the experience.......
1933 - 1985 minus 1975 = at least 25%
self professed know it all concerning wcg whilst in reality being less than pseodo on the issues (even if it doesn't matter at all of course but just for the sake being clear)
I didn't miss out on 25% of the experience, I only directly participated in 25% of it, and believe me, if you are involved in something bogus, you don't even require twenty years to realize that something is clearly wrong. It's why I had no problem leaving after the "big one" (1975). The rest of my accumulated ACOG experience is vicarious, based on reading the mountain of anecdotal evidence shared on the internet.
Pseodo? (sic) It might be seem insensitive to say this, but even if you were to do something about your dyslexia or whatever else might be affecting your written communication, the logic behind your ideas and theories would probably still not gain any traction with most readers.
BB
2:46
Chancy the Gardener. I think you nailed the personality type. Some people are extremely good in being succesful without any worldy credentials.
You mentioned Al Asqa briefly. I won't go into the details but I'm sure you are aware that this very event was a 9/11 event for every single arab. Every man, woman and child to this present day knows about this event and fears the Jews want to blow up Al Asqa.
This is old news of course and I wouldn't have reacted to it but I found that the biggest danger is coming from fundamentalist christians. (like the guy from 1968)
The fundamentalist jews cannot enter the place since they need a perfect red heiffer to cleanse themselves after the event. A fundamentalist farmer in Alabama nearly succeeded in breeding such red heiffer and donate it to the third templistst. Luckily for all of us the heiffer developed hairs in other colours so the waiting is for another succesful attempt.
nck
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