For many decades we heard in the Church of God why Herbert Armstrong needed his fancy jets in order to fly around the world. Millions of dollars in tithe money were used to buy these jets and fly entourages around the world while staying in first class hotels, all at tithe payers expense, and for what? Thankfully Joseph Tkach Sr. out a stop to that silliness.
Today, countess other religious hucksters brag about their own jets and tell their followers to send in money to help them finance new jets. This recently has caused a backlash and criticism that has stung some these hucksters. They are now on the defensive and you won't beleive their excuses.
49 comments:
These jets are extremely expensive to purchase, to fuel, and to maintain. I also shudder to think of what the exhaust emissions are doing to the environment, too, released directly into the upper atmosphere. Tesla should should get into the aerospace industry, developing some electric airplane engines. I hate to wait in line at the airport, too, but these evangelists are wasting a phenomenal amount of money largely for their own convenience.
BB
Anyone who views a video like this and still sends money in to these guys is, I hate to say it, probably beyond hope...
"...but these evangelists are wasting a phenomenal amount of money largely for their own convenience."
a rather communistic way of thinking, huh?
it's their money to spend as they please...perhaps you should say "in my opinion it's a waste of money".
in my opinion it's terribly foolish to give any money to those hucksters, but hey, people are free to give whatever to whomever they please...
and I wouldn't worry about the environment...man doesn't have the ability to change the climate....it's just a different type of religious huckster that's trying to convince everyone that we can, so they can transfer wealth from those who earned it to those whom they deem "deserving".
As we foreign aliens might say, such a video could only emanate from the USA! Such a strange, but wonderful, country.
cheers
ralph.f
The jets were leased from Stanley Rader and JWT even got himself a bigger plane 737.
nck
Just saw this earlier today:
This is Why Pastor Creflo Dollar Needed a $65 Million Plane
It was back in March when Pastor Creflo Dollar asked his parishioners to donate $65 million so he could buy a new plane. (For Jesus, of course.) He later cancelled the fundraiser after a hell of a lot of negative media attention, but blamed it on Satan trying to “discredit” his voice.
What got lost in this discussion is why he needed this new plane in the first place. Because he already had one a year earlier.
But this is what happened to it...
A couple of the comments below it read:
"So, let's get a little perspective here: Pastor buys aircraft with money donated by congregation. A congregation that probably consists of many donors who can barely afford to make ends meet. Pastor neglects to insure said aircraft and when it gets smashed beyond repair, returns to congregation for a new set of wings. Either Pastor was too tight with other people's money to pay for insurance OR the insurance pays out and Pastor lies to congregation in a scam to "raise more money for a new aircraft." Either way, it smells strange."
"Yes. God wants his prophets to fly in $65 million dollar planes rather than $65 million dollars going to charities for, oh I don't know...say...starving children?
That God! Picking favorites and all."
So, actually, it's not really their money to just simply spend as they please. It's money that's been donated to them in trust, with the idea that it's supposed to be going towards worthy causes, not blown on vanity bling.
Watching these two loonies justifying having the expensive planes to talk to their god is so insane. How can anybody send them money. They should be locked up in mental institution. Nobody needs to pay anyone to understand the bible, google and better explanations are there for free. Just shaking my head.
Unbelievable anyone can see this video and still be duped and still follow the likes of these guys. Then I thought how I was duped by Armstrong for so many years, it is possible. Even when I saw and heard the truth I still didn't want to believe it, I thought, no way, these things are just lies and gossip, but after much searching for facts of what was true and what was not I could hardly believe what I found out to be facts. This blog has helped me quite a lot to search these truths out and I know if a person doesn't do some serious study about what they hear they will continue to be duped and believe lies. Most so called churches of God are run by self appointed control freaks and only want your money and use the lie of tithes to get it, if you don't believe that then please study it out, there was a time I didn't believe it either.
This guy copeland I can't stand to listen to, a super self righteous phony and all he wants is money money and more money and will say anything to get it, to me he's on the same level as Peter Popoff and that's pretty bad. Hard to believe there are people like this and could care for nobody but themselves no matter how bad others are hurt by their evil ways.
For the good of our planet, it may actually be cost effective to send these- and many other lying Christian megachurch pastor/con men- into outer space.
My friend at NASA says that simply sending someone into space is WAY cheaper than trying to bring them back again. (It's not like comparing the cost of a one-way train ticket to the cost of a round-trip train ticket.)
But, heck, why not use one of those "faulty" rockets that blow up shortly after launching? That may be a more frugal alternative.
Many Rock stars obtain, rent, or lease planes so they won't get mobbed, so they can party on the plane, or feed their nicotine habit. Some just like the privacy. Others take their wives and kids along on the tours. They are also freed from airline schedules, cancelled flights, etc. Most of the ones who have died in crashes were not flying commercial at the time.
Expenses grow exponentially when one owns a private plane. Imagine the cost per person per trip when the expenses of a plane and flight are not spread over a hundred or more passengers. But, people in the ministry should really be concerned about what their personal carbon footprint is doing to the environment, and the future habitability of the planet. Carbon and greenhouse gases are actually measurable, and time lapse photography demonstrates beyond doubt that the North Pole area is melting, as well as permafrost, glaciers in Glacier National Park, Greenland, and other areas. Yes, Antarctica may be growing in ice mass, but not faster than the Arctic masses are shrinking. This is not surprising, since 80 % of the world's population lives on the Northern Hemisphere. The "junk science" ostriches amongst us are going to find it more and more difficult to deny climate change as the consequences continue to ramp up, as they have just in the past year. NASA now has a website monitoring this phenomenon. Rush Limbaugh will be long gone when this is affecting our kids and grand kids.
BB
10.47PM, No it's not their money to spend as they please. These churches are a charity. Money is given to them with the understanding that the donations will be used in a specific manner. Legal court cases over this point are common. You are the one having difficulty understanding ownership. If the ministers want to spend money as they please, let them get a real job in the real world, selling goods and services to willing customers. My, how they ruthlessly exploit their localised 'monopoly.'
Jan 4 12:44 Not to defend JWT but he did not buy a 737. He bought a BAC 111 a used airliner abought 20 years old. A fraction of what the G-3 cost. He made plenty of mistakes and told many lies but he never spent anything like HWA did
Let's send "rock stars" (like assholes Charlie Daniels, Creflo Dollar and Ted Nugent) into outer space. Please, Jesus, please!
Ummm... which one of the ACoG Cult leaders has a private jet today?
Evidently, once they've squandered a fortune on their jets, these types do have to economise just a little: how else to explain one having just the toupée, but no face-lift — while the other had the Botox-&-butt-fat injections but no wig, resorting to furious back-combing and industrial-strength Uktra-Clutch instead?
Floyd,
Thxs for the correction.
The 727 was leased for one trip only I see. The 7's and the fact that the bac is a bigger plane in size was what got stuck in my mind after 30 years.
As for the GII
"Actually I am a one-third owner of the aircraft which had been leased to the college, and the college is paying a very fair price for them." (Stan Rader, ministerial meeting, Pasadena, March 7, 1974.)
I believe it is no coincidence that the Foundation folded the very month the last lease payment on the auditorium was paid. It is called "exit" or "stop loss" by investor types like Rader.
Rader was in my opinion the one to choose tkach as director behind the scenes.
nck
10.47
I guess you should read up on what "the court case" was all about.
The state cannot infringe upon religious activities executed by private airplane.
This was upheld by the supreme court.
nck
Speaking of religious activity.
I keep telling that story here how HWA got to fly through the Jordan valley with Israeli airplane on one wing and syrian mig escort on another without tower clearance, and in some european countries police escort was provided by approach of the GIII, whereas idiot tkach got hassled by european customs had it not been for members working in the travel industry.
So far for "clearance". The GIII was awesome. The most expensive and best airplane of all the televangelists. 13-20 million 1982 dollars. (except if you lease of course)
nck
Thankfully, HWA and the WCG were not able to manufacture, buy or obtain, nuclear weapons.
Here is what a slightly used Gulfstream G650 jet costs now.
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/category/3/jet-aircraft/manufacturer/gulfstream/model/g650er
But if God is their pilot, why could not they just levitate and fly threw the air by themselves???
12.39, There have been many court cases of contributors suing secular charities for deviating from their stated goals. Likewise, it's immoral for a religion that accepts contributions from the public, to do likewise. Historically, charities are notoriously inefficient. Flashy expensive grounds and very high paid executives are common. Unlike a private business, they don't fear making a loss and going out of bussiness, or try to maximize profits. The incentive isn't there to be a efficient and a wise steward.
Anon Jan 4 12:37 You are right about JWT using a 727 for one trip and that trip was not cheap. I heard it cost about 5,000 an hour. To the person who said JWT got hassled by customs. I talked to a person who was on the trip where they rented the 727. It was on that trip he got in trouble with customs. It was because he and his secretary didn't claim items they bought on that trip. Then they lied about. I was told they were taken off the plane by customs. Later they were released. To my knowledge nothing was said if they had to pay a fine. Oh well another day in the saga of the leaders
Do we really need ministers? Don't we have minds? Why do we need someone who thinks that he is needed by us to guide us because he has a pipeline to God and we are spiritually inferior so we need to be guided like dumb sheep? Do we really need to give men pay checks, nice homes, expensive cars, and yes even their own private jets to tell us how to live our lives when we can do this by ourselves by using our own minds? No!!
The Plane Truth is RCG/PCG/LCG and LNMOP are all fly by night
Private jet? Ha ha ha...
Nothing can touch Reverend Ernest Angley's Star Triple Seven 747 that rivals Air
Force One.
And yes, I've seen Rev Angley in person and I'm still stupefied in the glory of his televangelistness!
http://www.pbase.com/image/73615023
Ronco
-7:18 Ronco That is just fantastic. (I believe that one has bathtubs inside and gold leaf)
-floyd 5:38 That "pause" by the "Roman"authorities must have been the closest resemblance to Paul in his career :-)
-12:39 I guess you're right morally. The case was about if the state could intervene if planes were used to spread a "religious message."
-Even in the day I would have diversified my tithes if I was confronted with pleas like in the posted video. Those guys are so funny if it wasn't real.
Connie Connie Connie. One of my new year resolutions is to not spout conspiracy theories on here as much as I did. BB set me straight on that.
But I don't know.... perhaps it is that picture that makes me break the rules. :-)
If you please you can study the history of the proliferation of nuclear weapons and nuclear technology to South Africa.
The intricate links between Israel and the Apartheid regime the Cold War, African nuclear technology. Than if I could get my fingers on the GII travel log. Burbank, South Africa, Israel, Japan, Kuwait etc etc And of course the diplomatic attendance of all the dinners in Israel etc (some to be found in old WorldWide news) and compliment that with historic knowledge on how the USA kept the peace for its allies during the Cold War and the UN as its instrument.
I mentioned how (at least one former top ranking wcg person) later made his living as "high technology consultant" for Israel to Japan. (that is deleted from his wikipedia)
Oops I did it again.
Sorry BB I will and was trying to avoid conspiracy but Miss MoneyConnie made me do it.
Back to topic I found the GIII so elegant. But would never have paid for the weirdos in the video.
nck
In order to immediately appease BB. (it's only 5th day in the year and breaking my resolution slightly)
I'm not saying GII and III were on covert mission.
I'm just saying that 100% of the people/diplomats hwa met and dined with were on covert mission during the British Israel post wwII Cold War order. Art, archeology and education are a perfect starter for any conversation.
I do not provide links just clues since I am not in the business of endorsing books like "The unspoken alliance". I just feel it is appropriate to comment about this on a thread dedicated to "our" plane.
nck
on January 4, 2016 at 7:18 PM
Ronco said....
"Nothing can touch Reverend Ernest Angley's Star Triple Seven 747 that rivals Air
Force One."
For one man!!! Just astounding!
cheers
ralph.f
I envy Copelands shirt collection. He might have thousands by now. He must have a specialist firm making these for him.
Ed, everyone has a pipeline to God. It's called prayer. I have never, ever heard a sermon or read a church article going back decades, that teaches that God leads every Christian directly. There is in fact no need for a middle man minister. That the churches hide this smells of Moses pushing God to one side and figuratively not qualifying for eternal life by God refusing him entry into the promised land.
In all fairness to Copeland, I heard one of his guest speakers give a five day, one week presentations on following Gods lead. He pointed out that God leads every Christian directly, and that it is every Christians responsibility to follow that lead. The Holy Spirit put a thought into my mind confirming the truth of this. Notice how by contrast, Armstrong and friends never, ever taught this, and still don't. This is a monstrous sin of omission. Like Satan, they lust to have Gods power, so they hide this truth. God refusing Moses entry into the promised land is a strong warning to these deceitful, power hungry ministers. Isn't it interesting how God appeared heartless and harsh to Moses plea to let him enter into the promised land. Yet that example hasn't deterred today's ministers. Another example of the wisdom of God.
"So, actually, it's not really their money to just simply spend as they please. It's money that's been donated to them in trust, with the idea that it's supposed to be going towards worthy causes, not blown on vanity bling."
and the minister is the one who determines how best to carry out those "worthy causes"....so yes, it is his to spend as he pleases.
No, no 6.31 AM. A minister cannot for instance spend tithe money on a call girl. In that sense, he cannot spend it as he pleases. The money must be spent as 'advertised' to the donors. Have you heard of the 'unjust steward?' You keep evading the moral issue. Are you a minister?
Does "nck" actually mean "new conspiracy kook"? Just kidding.
Although anything is possible, I've come to believe that HWA was simply a bullshit artist, who over-exagerated his own importance. The man was simply inca
Does "nck" actually mean "new conspiracy kook"? LOL! (Just kidding!).
Over the years I have come to realize that HWA was simply a bullshit artist who overly exagerated his own importance. The man was incapable of modesty and would have been a liability to the CIA because he was an alcoholic, and because he put himself into the high profile category with all of the pictures which he published of himself with dignitaries around the world. Also, by sometime in the mid-1970s, his eyes and his memory had deteriorated significantly. This is not the sort of man one would use for covert operations.
Because his prophecies failed 100%, it is tempting to try to find significance for the years we wasted with him, but aside from the lessons we learned about letting charlatans take over our lives, those years were a total loss. We didn't even get to keep most of the friends we thought we had made during those years, and most of the buildings we funded don't even exist any more. We had to make it in life in some cases in a damaged or less than optimal condition.
HWA was nobody, and nothing. I had heard of the disappointment of 1844 while growing up, but never knew William Miller's name until about 15 years ago when I entered some of the WCG discussion groups. So it will also be, in a few more decades, regarding HWA. His name will even fade from the small footnote category. And, that's a good thing.
BB
LOL, Anon at 6:20 AM!
Speaking of asshole professional bullshitter Kenneth Copeland's words, you say, "The Holy Spirit put a thought into my mind confirming the truth of this".
That's akin to the many stupid, simplistic and idiotic "thoughts" Kenneth Copeland claims the Holy Spirit put into his mind.
Not much different than drilling holes in your skull and forcing turds into them.
"and the minister is the one who determines how best to carry out those "worthy causes"....so yes, it is his to spend as he pleases."
Heh, well, are you talking about effectively, in practice? Or ideally in theory? Because I thought you were talking about ideally in theory. If this is your theoretical ideal, then I certainly hope you're not in the non-profit sector. Do you know the meaning of the word "fiduciary"?
Anon 6:20 AM
You wrote: "...God refusing Moses entry into the promised land is a strong warning to these deceitful, power hungry ministers. Isn't it interesting how God appeared heartless and harsh to Moses plea to let him enter into the promised land..."
FWIIW, Moses did enter the promised land; however, God did not allow Moses to cross the Jordan River to the western portion of the promised good land.
For example, Deut 3:27 says:
"Get thee up into the top of Pisgah, and lift up thine eyes westward, and northward, and southward, and eastward, and behold it with thine eyes: for thou shalt NOT GO OVER this Jordan." Numbers 3:27
Moses had to be within the promised land in order to look North, South, East and West and view it. He just could not cross the Jordan. The promised land existed on both sides of the Jordan River. Moses was on the east side of the Jordan River and in the promised land.
Additionally, if you'd like, go get a map of the promised land and look up the location of Pisgah and you will see that it was located in the promised land referred to as Reuben. Joshua would take the Israelites across the Jordan River (Deut 3:28) to the western portion of the promised land.
Also, where was Moses just before he died? For more information see Deut 34:1, 4:
Deut 34:1 "And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,"
Notice that mention is again made of the "top of Pisgah!" Look at your map. Moses saw portions of the promised land, but he was not going to cross that Jordan River:
:4 "And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to SEE IT WITH THINE EYES, but thou shalt NOT GO OVER thither."
He didn't go yonder, over thither, over the Jordan River (Deut 3:27), but Moses was in the promised land.
John
January 5, 2016 at 9:48 AM,
God is no respecter of persons. Live by His laws, pray, study the bible, and God will like wise communicate with you. It is a common experience with Christians. The communication dialogues Copeland and friends claim to have with God are too lengthy. It's typically a brief sentence from God, not some rambling back and forth dialogue as they claim.
Someone fantasized: "
"God is no respecter of persons. Live by His laws, pray, study the bible, and God will like wise communicate with you. It is a common experience with Christians. The communication dialogues Copeland and friends claim to have with God are too lengthy. It's typically a brief sentence from God, not some rambling back and forth dialogue as they claim."
Oh my....well this is good to know. Well except for the entire book of Job all the major and minor prophets and all of Leviticus and Deuteronomy God got real rambly wordy then.
You should watch RCG's behind the work film 2013. Dave Pack is trying so hard to do his HWA impression in his very small rented plane. It takes him all of two steps to get down. It looks like he has to move his body sideways to get out. It's hilarious when you've grown up in this crap and you know what it's about. If you don't know what it's about, it's just looks like some big dork getting out of a small plane. He was talking about buying a plane awhile back too. It's just soooo inconvenient to go to the airport. He may want to rethink the idea again since he is now claiming to be " that prophet". Wasn't he just dogging Gerald Flurring about taking that title?
January 5, 2016 at 2:26 PM
If Moses was in the promised land as you claim, why did God have him seeing it from Mountain tops? Your answer smells of the Pharisees reply of 'yes, but who is my brother.' Even the secular Google has the topic "Why was Moses not allowed to enter the Promised Land?" Legalistic nit picking of the definition of the 'promised land 'will not allow people to cheat Gods judgment:
I prefer God assessment rather than yours:
Numbers 20:12 “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them”
Whilst I'm here the ministers push God to one side, just like Moses did in that one instance by:
1. Lording it over church members. More specifically, they steal the talents that God gives to every person in the parable of the talents. They call this in Big Brother double speak, 'church government' or 'obedience.' Exercising these talents is life itself. It is how people build the mind of God. Stealing these talents is robbing people of their human and eternal lives. Worshiping God is not a end in itself, The purpose of worshiping God is to enable people to use their talents in a pro life manner. Robbing people of their rights, makes a mockery of worshiping God. What value is money that cannot be sent, or a car that can't be driven, or cloths that cannot be worn. Robbing church members of their rights makes worshiping God meaningless.
2. They hide that God leads every Christian directly. Never in over 5 decades have I read one article or heard one sermon on God leading people from Armstrongs church. By contrast Copeland, Joyce Myer and others do. Let the Armstrong fanboys explain this.
3. Using guile, the ministers behave as if they are God, or as the bible puts it, they 'show themselves as God.' God says 'call no man your master,' but the ministers disagree. Often, church tares mention ministers names in tones of reverential awe. Strong implication, the ministers are God.
An eye for a eye and a tooth for a tooth applies to eternal matters. Mafia 'ministers' that rob church members of their eternal lives, will like wise not qualify for eternal life. Nit picking about the definition of the promised land, changes nothing.
9.48AM, your brilliant line of reasoning has won me over. Thanks for clarifying the issue.
on January 5, 2016 at 4:09 PM
Anonymous said...
"The communication dialogues Copeland and friends claim to have with God are too lengthy. It's typically a brief sentence from God, not some rambling back and forth dialogue as they claim."
Perhaps a little reminiscent of: " Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."
cheers
talph.f
Jesse Duplantis was once in a regionally successful rock band around Texas and Louisiana. He is one of the people on Christian TV that I quickly found not to be credible. First, he gave a series of sermons on his personal "experience" or "vision" in being caught up into heaven, and what he saw and did while there. Secondly, he and Ken Copeland dressed up as bikers to put on an evangelistic campaign geared as an outreach to some of the outlaw clubs in the South. I think they may have even ridden bikes in the TV promotional for this. You just don't reach people in the hardcore biker lifestyle through blatant posing.
Knowing this background, one would think they would look forwards to opportunities to mix it up with the greater unwashed on commercial airline flights. They have the planes because they want to. They should have the courage to just state that, and leave it.
BB
6.50AM Are you suggesting I am a Pharisees? why, because l describe my experience.
God would not communicate to me if that was the case. When God puts thoughts into your mind, it's always rapid fire, not in the slow manner suggested by Copeland and friends. How would I know this if I'm a Pharisee? Having a accurate self assessment is commanded by God, as in 'examine yourself.' The Pharisee quote you gave shows that the Pharisaic self assessment was way off. They were in reality unjust, extortionists etc. They exalted themselves by claiming unearned honour and respect. Bully types do this all the time. You remind me of the fact that self love is a despised trait in the Armstrong churches. Any trait that enables church members to be more independent, is hated in these churches. Examples are self esteem, hence no birthday parties, self confidence, self respect, a good self image, poise etc etc. Any pro life trait is like putting a red cape in front of a bull. It's pathologically attacked.
on January 6, 2016 at 9:26 AM
Anonymous said...
"6.50AM Are you suggesting I am a Pharisees?"
If that was the impression you gained I humbly apologize.It was not my intent. My comment was directed towards those you describe, who fly in their own multi-million dollar aircraft and have lengthy conversations (prayers) with their "god".
Can you imagine the apostle Paul traveling in such a manner? His method was either 'shanks pony' or a donkey. No gold plated chariots for him.
cheers
ralph.f
ps. I fully agree with the rest of your comment.
Anon 2:26 PM
You wrote: "... If Moses was in the promised land as you claim, why did God have him seeing it from Mountain tops? Your answer smells of the Pharisees reply of 'yes, but who is my brother.' Even the secular Google has the topic "Why was Moses not allowed to enter the Promised Land?" Legalistic nit picking of the definition of the 'promised land 'will not allow people to cheat Gods judgment:
I prefer God assessment rather than yours:
Numbers 20:12 “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them”
Whilst I'm here the ministers push God to one side, just like Moses did in that one instance by ..."
Part of God's assessment is found in Numbers 20:12 where AKJV says:
"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them."
And if I would turn a blind eye to the Deuteronomy verses I cited in my previous post above, I might agree somewhat with you, but the verses you turned a blind eye to clearly show more of God's assessment that Moses not take the Israelites across the Jordan River into that western portion of the promised land.
Deuteronomy was written later than the book of Numbers and is giving more specific details. Deuteronomy was written in the last year of Moses' life on earth near the end of the Israelite's forty years of wandering experience.
Moses, nor any human being, is strong enough to "push God to one side;" however, Moses was stealing the glory that did belong to God and not to Moses.
If God didn't allow Moses into the promised land for smacking a rock instead of speaking to it, doesn't it make one wonder what is God going to do about the rest of humanity, who can't seem to cease from sinning in their lives? Well, that is with the one exception of Jesus Christ, of course!
John
on January 7, 2016 at 6:37 PM
Anonymous made this interesting comment:
"If God didn't allow Moses into the promised land for smacking a rock instead of speaking to it,...."
Interesting, when one considers the following scripture:
"1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
cheers
ralph.f
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