From a loyal reader here:
I don't know why you do this blog, you obviously believe in God. Don't you fear that you may well be fighting against Him. The Devil believe in God, and tremble. I don't mean to be rude, but are you too simple minded to tremble? Have they deceived you to believe that you are going to be ok. I do hope you are deceived,for your sake because God is very forgiving and merciful. He forgave Ahab and what he did eclipses this blog. If you once knew God and have turned away, then you may feel comfortable with no concern about how God views this. (Even in that He is merciful}. Still I feel sad for you, and I hope that repentance is still available to you. I won't defend anyone you have disrespected here, God takes care of His own, but also we rejoice when persecuted by others. It strengthens us. We will be ok. I will mention you in my prayers though and pray that you have not sinned a sin that leads to death. Take care.
30 comments:
You ask "Don't you fear that you may well be fighting against Him (ie God)." The answer is no, we do not. We are fighting exploitative, oppressive, gangster ministers. I remind you that the ministers hide trade, as in the parable of the talents. And hide that God leads every church member directly, with no minister middleman present. There has never been one Armstrongite article teaching this. It's pathetic that people have to go to a 'dissident site' to express certain outlawed truths. It is the minsters that are fighting God with their lies, distortions and sins of omission.
Please explain the following:
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
Matthew 20:26 Not so shall it be among you: but whosoever would become great among you shall be your minister;
Notice, no lording it over others, and no government power. Only the power to teach, advise, rebuke, together with the limited inherent power involved in serving others. Why do the ministers not fear fighting these instructions?
Cheers TradingGuy
It is nice to see that someone has genuine concern. However, the letter assumes that God might have actually had something to do with Herbert W. Armstrong, and may still be involved with one or more of the splinters.
The thing is, there is so much very real, and verifiable evidence to the contrary. The idea that presenting and exposing that evidence could be working against God is preposterous. God would not want people to close their minds to such evidence. He commands us to do our due diligence, to evaluate those who would be our teachers to determine if their prophecies come to pass, if the fruits they produce are good, whether they are actually working for God or in reality working for their own self-agrandizement, whether they are above reproach, whether they rely on Jesus Christ or on what one man teaches about his own anthropomorphic concept of Jesus Christ, and whether authority is wielded in a loving way in accordance with the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes.
Armstrongism and its teachers fail on all of the above criteria. Instead, they substitute a cheap imitation consisting of cruel, non-negotiable authority, and deeply instilled fear in members' lives. Frankly, it is difficult to imagine their "Assyrians" (Germans) inflicting more falsehood, fear, and pain in anyone's life.
I believe that when Jesus does return, there are going to be enough corrections and surprises to go around for everybody. Though the writer may be well-intentioned, he or she need not fear for those of us with a different understanding. Jesus is not going to initiate Armstrongish anthropomorphism as God's government on earth for all eternity when He returns.
BB
Ya people! Everyone knows it's better to keep the abuse a secret and your feelings about it bottled up. What's wrong with you?! If you share your experiences, it might prevent ministers from abusing others and that is the opposite of helpful. What we need is more control. More spies turning in friends and family who dare share their experiences. God has ordained these men so if they do it, there must be a good reason, you are just too below them to deserve to know why.
If it weren't for leaks to this site, think of how many more evil secrets men like Rod Meredith would be successfully keeping. If the leaders of ACOGs were honest, forthcoming and transparent, there would be far fewer visitors seeking information. But since the Gastapo control the flow of information and seldom feel the members deserve to know fully what's going on, this site is thriving.
Yes this site and it's contributors are evil. Not the perpetrators of the abuses we read about on this blog lol.
Sounds like the email I get. Worried about my soul so to speak. In reality they want you to stop bashing their idol Herbert W. Armstrong. Without their idolatry of everything Herbal, they would not know how to live their own lives. Lives not under the influence of that devil Herbie. That is the fear!
James: This one is mild compared to some and especially the closet case that keeps sending me explicit sexual posts about certain male anatomy parts he is obsessed with. We had heard he was a closet case. He needs to come out and be true to his self, he would be much happier. Its always a hilarious read. He thinks he intimidates me. Poor thing.
"We Rejoice When Persecuted By Others. Take Care..."
That's gotta be a statement from an armstrong minister that thinks a statement like that will draw more sheep to his defense. Who is persecuting whom here? The wolves-in-sheepskin get exposed and they hold up clueless sheep as shields. Sheeple, there has only been one perfect sheperd. Seek and ye shall find, before you are consumed or sacrificed to a hidden agenda!
Heh, check out the drawings in the various Books of Martyrs in there, then get back to us on the persecution thing, eh?
As for Ahab, he pales in comparison to Manasseh, but thats hair-splitting.
Sadly insanity and religious fervor often go together
Back when the original WCG was abandoning what Herbert taught, and things were coming apart, there were letters from people I knew, expressing quite similar -- alleged -- concern for my welfare. Or maybe it was my salvation. Well, anyway --
These notes would usually, then, shift gears to a grievance list: They CHANGED this! They DID AWAY with that! This other thing IS NO LONGER THERE! Underneath it all I heard this question: Isn't it, to you, so very SELF-EVIDENT how WRONG this all is?!?!?
Uh . . . no, I thought that was a GOOD CHANGE. It was GOOD they stopped doing that thing you mention. Wish I could actually have said that to the writers.
All these years, and we've got those poor Herbert-philes still puzzling about WHY CAN'T WE SEE?
Sigh.
Would this person registering protest like to demonstrate just how Armstrong was in any way associated with or supported by God? A better case can be made that he was of Satan, the Devil.
It just isn't evident, given how heinous and wrong-headed the man was, defying the leadership of the one church he himself said was most nearly perfect -- and then proceeded to rebel and ruin everything.
It should be noted that if Herbert Armstrong had been caught in the State of Texas, he would have been executed and that would have ended his religion right there.
-- Less Persecution and more PROSECUTION!
I fully acknowledge the flaws in the Armstrongs and how their poor examples created very poor leadership in the Church. Jesus was put a seat in the back of the bus. That I believe lead to its destruction. However, despite the numerous bad ministers I have dealt with, there were some Christ like men.
The question is, can a sinner still have revealed truth? I was raised Catholic. I knew nothing about the Bible. I ask any of the embittered people on this site to disprove what I learned about the "immortal soul", heaven and hell, the Trinity, the Sabbath (yes we worshipped the Sabbath, another flaw) the Holy Days, the Kingdom of God, without the Law you don't need Grace, hope for most of mankind through the 2nd resurrection, etc.. Paul was a sinner, David was a sinner, Peter denied Christ, all humans are flawed. I expect humans to act badly.
I not making excuses, just pointing out God has always used flawed people. We are all flawed.
Well, I'm not one of the embittered ones, 7:54, but let me just say that restudying the doctrines you mentioned, with an open mind, is something only you can do for yourself if it is to have any kind of meaning. There is a concept floating around out there that people leave Armstrongism because of abuses, corruption, and being tired of "postponed" prophecy, but not because they were able to disprove the doctrines. That is not true. Most of us did dig deeper, and have come to realize that there are extremely well developed and compelling scriptural supports for many of the mainstream Christian doctrines which Armstrongism taught against. Martha, and xHWA, and the rest of the folks over at the asbereansdid blog regularly do a great job of reexamining doctrinal approaches, in a continuing search for truth.
Over the years, I've been amazed at the depths to which some Catholics (I am not Catholic) investigate the scriptures in support of their faith, and discuss these things on the Catholic forums. The Calvary movement (those guys who take over and refurb abandoned shopping centers) are noteworthy for teaching people to study the scriptures in depth. And, then, there is a level of scholarship unimaginable for HWA at many of the Christian institutions of higher learning. What I have found over the years is that most of the people who follow some form of Armstrongism really do not carefully consider the alternatives, or ever reevaluate what they have been taught in the ACOGs. They simply state and restate their Armstrongite beliefs, more or less "shouting down" those of a different understanding. There is often an arrogance there that rivals that of the Jehovah's witnesses.
I'm not a teacher. I do read widely. Sometimes I share my findings, but I've realized that debating scripture with closed minded people is a total waste of time, and it often results in offending people and causing hurt feelings. Therefore, my Bible Study is personal, for my own use only. If people won't even consider genetics when pondering the British Israel prophecy failure issue, what hope is there that they would start from scratch, with an open mind, in matters of doctrinal understanding? The people who gave us 1975 in prophecy, and who have continued to revise and change the projected dates told us that God granted them this understanding because they kept the sabbath and holy days. Obviously, this cannot be true. So, even there, something has not been gotten right.
BB
As far as I'm concerned, Byker Bob is right about the doctrines. I am only about 3 years post-COG and am just amazed at what I find. Like, jaw dropping amazed. There is so much shallow doctrinal understanding in the COGs based on single scriptures out of context. It would be funny if there weren't such a high human cost. Here's just two examples. When I did the "Word Games" study I was just stunned at how badly the scriptures were twisted. Pretty much all the high-dollar doctrinal resources I own were purchased with "second tithe" for the feast and sat on my shelves for years. The COG author I refuted had all these resources and it would appear he examined them for one word's worth of information and couldn't be bothered to flip like 7 pages to check his work. On the New Moons post, I discovered and learned about Rosh Chodesh in a 24 hour period. Somehow the COGWA and UCG authors haven't found these details in 60 years of study on new moons.
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2014/09/word-games.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2014/09/new-moons-what-josephus-says-they-were.html
For just one issue I had to reconsider, please examine this study on Born Again. I used the work of a COG minister who disagrees with HWA for the jumping-off point. Essentially he said that HWA was wrong, Protestants are mostly right, but he disagrees with their conclusion basically "just because."
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2015/02/looking-at-born-again-again_12.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2015/02/born-again-and-kingdom-of-god.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2015/02/gennao.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2015/03/jesus-qualified-to-be-firstborn.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2015/03/blowing-in-wind.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2015/04/loose-ends-on-born-again.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2015/05/just-what-do-they-mean-born-again.html
Granted, I don't believe my evangelical pastor has perfect understanding. There are some issues where he knows I disagree with him. Issues like tithing and the 10 commandments and such. Anymore, I believe the Greek. That's about it. You're right, we're all flawed. You, me, everyone, save One.
And I'm not bitter. I didn't try to get LCG's event at World Vision canceled because of sour grapes. I pushed to get it canceled because I don't want to see anyone else buy into this drivel, especially on false pretenses. And I don't write because I'm bitter. I'm trying to build a doctrinal foundation for my family after reading the Bible through prooftexted booklets for 30+ years, and trying to reach the people I came to know and love over those 30+ years.
In a nutshell, I left Armstrongism because of the false doctrines. It was when I really started studying my Bible that I was convicted that I had to leave.
Gary writes: James: This one is mild compared to some and especially the closet case that keeps sending me explicit sexual posts about certain male anatomy parts he is obsessed with...
Had a guy commenting on a PT video, Incest and the Apostle. He was also obsessive with homosexual sex. As you might know, you can find out from their profile what they watch on Youtube. He liked the young kissing boys. I pointed this out to him and he backed off. I was going to publish his name for a public shaming and for sure disfellowshipment, but I was kind and merciful, unlike his paper god of the bible.
"...all humans are flawed. I expect humans to act badly"
I'm sure our LCG anon is more than willing to afford his/her leaders grace, mercy and forgiveness when they behave badly because they are just flawed human beings and so it should be.
But where's that same grace, mercy and forgiveness from his/her LCG leadership? It's completely lacking.
I'm happy this anon sort of "gets it" in this regard. Sadly, the leaders of LCG simply don't get it.
They will all be judged as they have judged and that is a mighty scary situation for Rod Meredith, Jim Meredith, Rod McNair, Richard Ames, Gerald Weston, Wyatt Ceicelka, Don Davis and many, many others like them.
LCG is full of nepotism, corruption, and lies upon lies. It's a house of cards.
If our anon is reading this, I would like him/her to know that I agree with many of the doctrines mentioned in his/her comment. However, supporting a man who has shown himself to be too arrogant and blind to even realize he needs to try to change (Rod Meredith)is idolatry. How will you answer to God when he asks you why you continued to follow a man like Meredith? You may think your obedience and submission to the "government of God" will earn you a higher place in the Kingdom but I contend that it is doing precisely the opposite. God wants us to stand up for what is right to show our obedience to Him. Trusting in a flawed, human man doesn't earn you jack diddly. Doing nothing in situations of injustice, is doing something.
I left Armstrongism not just because of false doctrines, but because it's all quite insane and I want to spend the few years I may have left without being burdened with associating with kooks in a cult.
To assume that we may be offending God if we criticize Armstrongism is assuming that God is involved in this abusive religion. I believe that all religions where invented by men and that his hand,(if he exists) is not in any of mans religions.
I believe that all religions are fair game for criticism. I also believe that this is healthy else we become slaves to religion which are of men not of God. If God exists he is above religion!
Anon 7:54 It's sad to see that excuses can be made for cog leaders such as they are just humans with flaws yet when members who are also human complain about the abuses they are considered bitter or embittered, many lives were destroyed by these abuses the hurts whether emotional, physical, financial, psychological or spiritual are real some will take years to heal some may never depending on how much they have lost, secondly just because a church has in a few nice people doesn't mean it negates the arrogance the deception and abuse of the organization they are many churches with nice sincere people not just the cogs I'm sure you won't join them because of that alone, thirdly the Sabbath the trinity e.t.c many Churches have doctrinal truths they can use to bolster their position e.g on anti jw sites witnesses may defend their faith by doctrines like Christmas is pagan GOD has a name, the bible is the truth that alone proves nothing and says little about a group as they say actions speak louder than words, walk like a duck sound like a duck maybe it is a duck.
Anon 4:26 You made an assumption that I'm with Living. There is no way I would put up with Rod's un-Christian attitude. Pack, Flurry and Meredith are nut cases.
And to Martha, the arguments on your site are the very old weak Protestant song and dance. The Born Again issue has been readdressed so that one is off the board. My belief in the doctrines I mentioned are despite the often poor leadership involved. The central message from our Creators is Love. That is what was a missing element in most if not all the COG groups. Division, ego, control and competition are Satan's tools to turn us away from Christ.
Anonymous, you're welcome to believe or disbelieve whatever you want. We all answer to God individually.
Still, I don't understand how you can say that "born again" is off the table since really, the only ones who have addressed it are Rick Ritenbaugh and UCG. And both Ritenbaugh and UCG essentially state that HWA's explanation was not biblically founded and the Protestant explanation was largely correct; they then go back to promoting HWA's explanation because it is a good explanation, despite the fact that it is not found in scripture. That is practically a word-for-word quote.
You can see your leaders have made mistakes. I wish you could see that the very mistakes they have made damage their credibility on everything else. But as I've said before, if perfect understanding is a prerequisite for salvation, then we're all screwed.
By the way, please don't take that last comment to mean that I believe you would have perfect understanding if you just agreed with me.
Martha - all of mankind lives on a deceived planet. Tell me why God's plan has 99% of mankind clueless. Obviously each person bares some responsibility. But the way humans were distributed with different cultures and languages, plus at what point in history someone is born, I makes me wonder about fairness and how it's all workout in the end.
You know, I do struggle with that. It's above my pay grade and I am thankful for that.
But as far as what point in history someone is born, I'm not sure that's necessarily a factor. Genesis 15:6 tells us God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness, and then Paul explains what this means for us today in Romans 4. Yet Abraham lived thousands of years before Jesus was born. It seems pretty obvious to me that people like Noah, Moses, Sarah, Rahab, David, Daniel all "made it," for lack of a better term.
If the basis is and always was faith, regardless of when was born along the historical timeline, that helps. But I agree it's still murky.
"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself."
Sir Richard Francis Burton
Anon 7:54, if you reward evil with kindness, with what will you reward kindness?
Anon10:59,"...secondly just because a church has in a few nice people doesn't mean it negates the arrogance the deception and abuse of the organization"
So true, it will also continue to gnaw and eat away at the good, nice, humble-hearted people that stay. Because, armstrongism is all about the authority, privledge, and entitlement and NOT about experiencing and developing good, healthy, and growing relationships. Armstrongist's leaders are judges and not explorers. The "good-ones" will eventually starve to death, because the judges will only allow them to EAT ONLY THE MENU and SERVE THEM! Only the judges are entitled to consume, which is YOU. Damn the wolf-pack.
Exploring it, in my opinion, they are miserable bastards.
DBP
6:28, how are they old, how are they weak, and how are they Protestant?
What many people on the inside of the ACOGs don't realize is that the Armstrong doctrines automatically produce the type of leadership you guys are experiencing. You can practice the doctrines in the safety and privacy of your homes just fine (so long as the wife and kids are willing to tolerate them.) But, the instant that you begin to amass a group, toxic leadeship emerges. If it were primarily grace based, you wouldn't have all of the cruelty. Making it primarily law-based with a faint wink towards grace automatically sets up the ministry, deacons, husbands, etc. as police officers with punishment privileges. It is as if ACOG ministers have no understanding or belief whatsoever in the power of the Holy Spirit. They overrun and co-opt this power. And, that is both sad and potentially spiritually fatal.
BB
1% said "...all of mankind lives on a deceived planet"
Can planets be deceived?
"But the way humans were distributed with different cultures and languages,"
Whose fault is that?
"Division, ego, control and competition are Satan's tools to turn us away from Christ."
tools? the above words define our experiences and how we behave towards to each other.
"Tell me why God's plan has 99% of mankind clueless."
How can we know God's plan? We are clueless because we all to often refuse to listen.
We need to start searching, discovering, and learning the laws that we ABSOLUTELY can't break.
DBP
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