Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
We can't have a "Rapture" outside of the true church, no can't have that. Any Elijah's? Any out of state college alumni out there who during holidays found out their parents had moved abroad?
Wow! That is quite a step by step procedure to leave the 99 and find the one. The biggest question here for me is what will they do with the one after they find him/her? I have a strong feeling it won't be welcoming the person back with a great party and the killing of the fat calf.
"Contact me or else" what? Or else I'll send fire from heaven to devour you? Or else you will be removed from the member list (whew! That's what I wanted in the first place!) Or, or, I'll... (stamps foot) I'll throw a TEMPER TANTRUM!!! Yeah, THAT'S what I'll do! -FFS
When they talk about the "Member File", has anyone seen what these were like, for instance how detailed? did these files have 'sins' that were confessed - or ratted out by other members? Who also had access to member-Files? deacons?, deacons' wives?
I remember in WCG I sometimes was unable to attend Sabbath service 'cause I would have car trouble or sometimes didn't have money for gas in the car. Of course I wasn't in the clique at church so when I eventually stopped attending I never received a visit or a phone call from anybody from Worldwide.
This does not sound like a loving attempt to preserve someone's spiritual well-being, or to restore an errant one. It comes off as yet another heavy handed exercise of authority, with the likelihood that perhaps a chain of previous such exercises may have caused the missing members to stage a disappearance for the sake of their own mental health, and crafted in a way to avoid an ugly confrontation.
We all know that if or when the missing were located, there would be an inquisition. Disappearing from "God's Church" as they euphemistically call it is not interpreted as an innocent act, or minor oversight. It is an act of rebellion, any you can bet your bottom dollar that the ministry just wants to confirm this, so that the individuals can be slandered and marked from the pulpit.
Nobody tried to trace me, or to disfellowship me when I left. Of course, by that time, I knew that they were in no way who or what they said that they were. So, a chastising minister would have been met with defiance and anger, and told to "get thee behind me, Satan" - and, as they so quaintly put it, "or else".
@ 8:12AM, in LCG a member may have as many as 3 member files.
The local pastor keeps his own records about each member. This doesn't usually include tithing information unless HQ has provided it because of some special situation. It does, however, try to estimate the member's economic status based on things like home and automobile ownership, Feast travel, etc. Mostly it gives an account of the member's participation in the local congregation and any counseling-related data that may apply.
HQ keeps another record about high-profile members, either those who are ordained or those who have been involved in D&R situations or suspension/reinstatement. This record will include at least periodic tithe checks, as LCG does not ordain men who don't have a clean record as withers.
Finally, HQ keeps a centralized database of all contacts. This contains detailed tithing/donation information, membership status, ordination information, plus whatever the local minister and HQ ministry have decided belongs in the "Comments" field. LCG somewhat restricts access to members' financial information, but the "Comments" field lets some very personal information fall into the hands of any minister who accesses the database, as well as any LCG data entry staff.
Thanks for the info 8:12AM, it sounds as bad as I suspected/experienced. The "counseling-related data" sounds intriguing as does the "..the "Comments" field lets some very personal information fall into the hands of any minister [+wives, deacons, deacons' wives, gossip-circle friends..?].." You get the idea.
Dennis! So happy to see a comment from you. Missed you. Hope you are well. Sincerely. An admirer for 10 years now. I’m still waiting for Dave Pack to debate you.
I remember in WCG I sometimes was unable to attend Sabbath service 'cause I would have car trouble or sometimes didn't have money for gas in the car. Of course I wasn't in the clique at church so when I eventually stopped attending I never received a visit or a phone call from anybody from Worldwide.
The exact same thing happened to me in UCG. I attended with them from the split in 1995 until the mid-2000's. I wasn't part of the in-crowd but I wasn't a nobody either. Not one single person every called to check on me after I stopped attending. Not one.
These member files can be way off any truth about the members. The reporting system is highly flawed. It relies upon hearsay, assumption and half truths. It is mainly what deacon and deaconesses report up the chain of authority to the pastor. In my experience what is contained within these files are cartoon impressions of the church members.
10.29 AM The way my last ministers wife looked at me, made it obvious that the minister had discussed me with her. Her strong reaction also made it obvious that he lied to her about me (without going into detail). They do one thing, then tell their wives something different. They are liars extraordinaire.
It is my suspicion that those who they would run through all corners, bushes, walls, and mountains to find if they went "missing" are the ones that were the high paying tithers or pillars in the Church, or those with high potential, or those in the in-crowd, or those who were favored by the Church.
Those who were in the out-crowd, poor, third-tithe recipients, "weird", "Oddballs", (These aren't what I called them - the leadership at AC penned these terms) - you think they'd run after these? No, they'd just "let them go".
Their MAIN, number ONE concern - above all else - was the bottom line and who was "supporting Herbert Armstrong". "Supporting" meaning 1st, 2nd, 3rd Tithe and offerings and building funds and full and complete obedience and compliance to Herbert and Hirelings.
*The Way I envision the Member Files to Look* *Fictional*
MEMBER: JOHN DOE BAPTISM DATE: 3/1/2302 MARITAL STATUS: M STATUS: BAPTIZED MEMBER JOB: BANK PRESIDENT INCOME: ESTIMATED 275,050 HOME: OWNED (2) AUTO: OWNED (2)
CHURCH: SPOKESMAN CLUB, GRADUATE CLUB, PRAYER, GREETER, SONG LEADER, Y.O.U. COACH, SPECIAL MUSIC, TALENT PARTICIPANT
FESTIVAL TRAVEL: HAWAII, JEKYLL ISLAND, PENSACOLA, CRUISE, VAIL, PASADENA, BIG SANDY
COUNSELING: STANDARD YEARLY VISIT.
COMMENTS:PILLAR IN LOCAL CHURCH, HIGH INCOME, STRONG BENEFIT TO LOCAL CHURCH. STRONG CANDIDATE FOR POTENTIAL ORDINATION TO DEACON/LOCAL CHURCH ELDER IF REQUIRED.
***********
MEMBER: JOE PUBLIC BAPTISM DATE: 3/1/2309 MARITAL STATUS: S STATUS: BAPTIZED MEMBER JOB: BAGGER/STOCKER INCOME: ESTIMATED 14,650 HOME: RENT AUTO: OWNED
CHURCH: ATTENDS WEEKLY. TAPE LIBRARIAN.
FESTIVAL TRAVEL: LOCAL FESTIVAL SITE
COUNSELING: EXTENSIVE. NEEDS HIGHER INCOME JOB. DISPLAYS ATTITUDE PROBLEM WITH WORK AND INABILITY TO TAKE COUNSELING OR ADAPT TO CHANGE. UNMARRIED. CANNOT ATTRACT A MATE. ODDBALL IN MANY WAYS. MAY HAVE A SPIRITUAL PROBLEM, MAY NEED DISCIPLINARY ACTION IF SPIRITUAL PROBLEM PERSISTS OR IS UNWILLING TO TAKE MINISTERIAL ADVICE.
COMMENTS: GOOD LUCK TO THE NEXT PASTOR WITH THIS ONE.
But what if Joe Public led a different life to his perceived one ? Dating outside the church, earning more than declared, house owned not rented. Its all in perception. I recall members driving BMWs but they were old, yet the leadership only saw the name brand. It is all rarther pathetic.
Yet on the other end of the spectrum, when my children were small...wait...that was when my then husband was making good money at a steady job (lost it because the job moved), anyway...the kids got sick with chicken-pox I think, one after the other, so I missed six weeks of church. I got a call from mr. minister asking me why I hadn't been to church in six weeks. I had to explain that my kids were sick. At the feast one year, during the same time period, one of the kids got sick so we stayed in the motel with that child, and my ex got called into the office the next day and got bawled out for not being at church. Sheesh!
Sounds like a good husband not to leave you alone. Some extreme splinters have strict policies to not attend with sick children due to their "criminal" non vaccination policy.
Just before I left, attendance numbers at my Feast site fluctuated between 8000 and 12000 per day. At the time I knew/thought the church had turned "laodicean". But in reality I was bored by it all. I guess the others were too.
All I remember on any member file card was Name, address, phone, married or single . There was nothing personal. I realize this was rather long ago for me but I never knew personally of a local church file that was anything but who was a member and how to contact them. The only way to get an update on tithing was to ask HQ and , at that time, they were reluctant to give such info, to me at least, unless there was a good reason to know. This was my experience. Other experiences may vary. I can imagine some over zealous minister types, however, keeping their own kinds of files above and beyond the call of duty.
I recall telling a certain Mr Weston whose church I was being transferred into that I did not want to know all about "the members" at a lunch we had in the transition. I liked fresh and clean starts and wanted to tell the church in my first sermon that no such conversations ever took place and this was a good time for a fresh start if one thought they needed it. So sure was one woman that such conversations took place that when she met me the first sabbath, she said "Hi Mr. Diehl. I'm the woman who committed adultery." I took her aside, asked her to never say that again, that was not her identity nor who she was and what was her name? She looked at me and teared up. We had a nice hug and that was the end of it. Sad she felt that label was her's for life and someone made her feel that way. It was a memorable moment for her and me.
Nck If you don't believe that the COGs are cults, then why are you on this blog??? Talking of Scientology, invalidating dissenting points of view is their main tool of control. This is the very thing you have been doing here for some time. Nck the Invalidator.
If you read up on cults (eg, articles by the late Margaret Singer), you will find that the experience of researchers is that when there is a body of complaints, it's near certain that the accused organisation is a cult.
With your disregard for truth, you yourself are behaving like a cult leader.
Your response to that woman was the most Christian response anyone could have given her - hands down. Right down to the identity, nor who she was. "There is therefore now no condemnation". You handled that perfectly in my view.
Yes, I know you are atheist-agnostic-whatever. I have read all of your posts. I know your views. I understand the hurt and the trauma you went through in the Church. But you absolutely were a GOOD minister. You had it. You understood it. And I guarantee you that lady remembers you to this day for your kindness and forgiveness.
Thank you for being a shining light in such a dark hell-pit of a so-called church. They did not know what they had in you as a minister and Pastor.
Q: If you don't believe that the COGs are cults, then why are you on this blog???
A: I believe all churches are man made cults by definition. So either they all are or non are. But I agree some are dangerous cults to mind and body.
Q: Talking of Scientology, invalidating dissenting points of view is their main tool of control. This is the very thing you have been doing here for some time. Nck the Invalidator.
A: A good point can NEVER be invalidated. Either supporting or dissenting. Readers here know what is true in their experience. If their's resembles your experience they will see the merit in your remarks if it resembles my remarks they may pay attention to my postings.
Q: If you read up on cults (eg, articles by the late Margaret Singer), you will find that the experience of researchers is that when there is a body of complaints, it's near certain that the accused organisation is a cult.
A: I do not know of any organisation that does not garner a body of complaints. It is all a matter of definition. I will not cite the problems of the largest christian denomination since they are all over todays headlines. In the 16th century some Anabaptists in Munster also made even more accusations. They all went crazy and ended up hanging from the tower. Now who is the cult. The dissenters, the main body. Each his own.
Q: With your disregard for truth, you yourself are behaving like a cult leader.
A: I do not disregard the truth. My experience more or less resembles that of Dennis and many out there. I am pretty sure that the vast majority of ex members doees not share a view that they were either deceived or crazy people in their day, even if today they might agree with your assessment that cog shares your definition of a cult.
The vast majority just believed what they thought true at the time and may have changed their opinion today. In my assessment it was not a pre set up for deception. It was just another system that fitted the time and personality of some. And I met some good people.
I find it funny everytime a 'good guy" gets mentioned. Everyone is so certain they were the exception. I thing the loonies like flurry, pack, weinland et all were/ are the exception. Unfortunately they winded up in leadership positions.
"Deceived" or "crazy" are labels which the second generation ACOG members are not afraid to use on themselves. Deceived comes into play because the whole rotten system was foisted upon them by their parents, and crazy is totally appropriate because so many of those raised diligently according to the child rearing booklet were left to fight PTSD over a lifetime.
I do not respect the thinking processes of anyone who came to the conclusion on their own and without the influence of family that joining Armstrongism was a valid and proper solution to life. I can understand people being involved in it because they were forced to do so by their parents, but fortunately, so many of those folks realized what had been done to them, and left.
Scientology is a variant by degree of the cult experience. WCG ministers were intrusive, but at least they didn't regularly hook members up to E-meters and ask them deeply personal questions. Tithing was compulsory according to the tenets of WCG, but at least one was not required to purchase the literature to grow in level and rank in the organization. If any group outside of Armstrongism has deeper layers of legalism and internal gnosticism, it would most certainly be Scientology. Fortunately, the followers of L. Ron Hubbard have shrunken in numbers just as have the followers of Herbert W. Armstrong. You can actually discern without being told that one's approach was informed by his career as a science fiction writer, and the other by what he learned in the advertising field. Both are masters in at least temporarily taking control of the minds, whether to lead readers in escapist fantasy, or to mold thinking towards a tangible or intangible product.
Nck Try reading Steven Hassans 'Combatting cult mind control.' By the definitions given in the book (eg, the dispensation of existence), not all churches are cults as you claim. "A good point can never be invalidated?" Really? Why do you think verbal attacks permeate politics? You come up with personal definitions, which you then use to refute others points. You are truly a city slicker lawyer. I'II hire you if I ever get arrested.
33 comments:
We can't have a "Rapture" outside of the true church, no can't have that. Any Elijah's?
Any out of state college alumni out there who during holidays found out their parents had moved abroad?
nck
Wow! That is quite a step by step procedure to leave the 99 and find the one. The biggest question here for me is what will they do with the one after they find him/her? I have a strong feeling it won't be welcoming the person back with a great party and the killing of the fat calf.
"Contact me or else" what? Or else I'll send fire from heaven to devour you? Or else you will be removed from the member list (whew! That's what I wanted in the first place!) Or, or, I'll... (stamps foot) I'll throw a TEMPER TANTRUM!!! Yeah, THAT'S what I'll do!
-FFS
When they talk about the "Member File", has anyone seen what these were like, for instance how detailed? did these files have 'sins' that were confessed - or ratted out by other members? Who also had access to member-Files? deacons?, deacons' wives?
I remember in WCG I sometimes was unable to attend Sabbath service 'cause I would have car trouble or sometimes didn't have money for gas in the car. Of course I wasn't in the clique at church so when I eventually stopped attending I never received a visit or a phone call from anybody from Worldwide.
This does not sound like a loving attempt to preserve someone's spiritual well-being, or to restore an errant one. It comes off as yet another heavy handed exercise of authority, with the likelihood that perhaps a chain of previous such exercises may have caused the missing members to stage a disappearance for the sake of their own mental health, and crafted in a way to avoid an ugly confrontation.
We all know that if or when the missing were located, there would be an inquisition. Disappearing from "God's Church" as they euphemistically call it is not interpreted as an innocent act, or minor oversight. It is an act of rebellion, any you can bet your bottom dollar that the ministry just wants to confirm this, so that the individuals can be slandered and marked from the pulpit.
Nobody tried to trace me, or to disfellowship me when I left. Of course, by that time, I knew that they were in no way who or what they said that they were. So, a chastising minister would have been met with defiance and anger, and told to "get thee behind me, Satan" - and, as they so quaintly put it, "or else".
Minister: "Contact me or else"
Member: "Catch me if you can"
Hey, maybe they can use these tactics to find fugitive Kevin Owen Dean!
http://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2013/02/kevin-owen-dean-still-fugitive-for.html
@ 8:12AM, in LCG a member may have as many as 3 member files.
The local pastor keeps his own records about each member. This doesn't usually include tithing information unless HQ has provided it because of some special situation. It does, however, try to estimate the member's economic status based on things like home and automobile ownership, Feast travel, etc. Mostly it gives an account of the member's participation in the local congregation and any counseling-related data that may apply.
HQ keeps another record about high-profile members, either those who are ordained or those who have been involved in D&R situations or suspension/reinstatement. This record will include at least periodic tithe checks, as LCG does not ordain men who don't have a clean record as withers.
Finally, HQ keeps a centralized database of all contacts. This contains detailed tithing/donation information, membership status, ordination information, plus whatever the local minister and HQ ministry have decided belongs in the "Comments" field. LCG somewhat restricts access to members' financial information, but the "Comments" field lets some very personal information fall into the hands of any minister who accesses the database, as well as any LCG data entry staff.
Thanks for the info 8:12AM, it sounds as bad as I suspected/experienced. The "counseling-related data" sounds intriguing as does the "..the "Comments" field lets some very personal information fall into the hands of any minister [+wives, deacons, deacons' wives, gossip-circle friends..?].." You get the idea.
Dennis! So happy to see a comment from you. Missed you. Hope you are well. Sincerely. An admirer for 10 years now. I’m still waiting for Dave Pack to debate you.
I remember in WCG I sometimes was unable to attend Sabbath service 'cause I would have car trouble or sometimes didn't have money for gas in the car. Of course I wasn't in the clique at church so when I eventually stopped attending I never received a visit or a phone call from anybody from Worldwide.
The exact same thing happened to me in UCG. I attended with them from the split in 1995 until the mid-2000's. I wasn't part of the in-crowd but I wasn't a nobody either. Not one single person every called to check on me after I stopped attending. Not one.
These member files can be way off any truth about the members.
The reporting system is highly flawed. It relies upon hearsay, assumption and half truths. It is mainly what deacon and deaconesses report up the chain of authority to the pastor.
In my experience what is contained within these files are cartoon impressions of the church members.
10.29 AM
The way my last ministers wife looked at me, made it obvious that the minister had discussed me with her. Her strong reaction also made it obvious that he lied to her about me (without going into detail). They do one thing, then tell their wives something different. They are liars extraordinaire.
If you love something, set it free. If it doesn't come back, track it down and kill it! (original saying by COG-7 apostate Herbert Armstrong)
After almost 50 years in the church, I left and never even got a phone call why. They knew, they knew.
"They are liars extraordinaire."
They should make good ex-members, when their time comes.
10.40 AM
We at Banned have broken Dennis's spirit.
He's an ordinary poster now.
It is my suspicion that those who they would run through all corners, bushes, walls, and mountains to find if they went "missing" are the ones that were the high paying tithers or pillars in the Church, or those with high potential, or those in the in-crowd, or those who were favored by the Church.
Those who were in the out-crowd, poor, third-tithe recipients, "weird", "Oddballs", (These aren't what I called them - the leadership at AC penned these terms) - you think they'd run after these? No, they'd just "let them go".
Their MAIN, number ONE concern - above all else - was the bottom line and who was "supporting Herbert Armstrong". "Supporting" meaning 1st, 2nd, 3rd Tithe and offerings and building funds and full and complete obedience and compliance to Herbert and Hirelings.
*The Way I envision the Member Files to Look* *Fictional*
MEMBER: JOHN DOE
BAPTISM DATE: 3/1/2302
MARITAL STATUS: M
STATUS: BAPTIZED MEMBER
JOB: BANK PRESIDENT
INCOME: ESTIMATED 275,050
HOME: OWNED (2)
AUTO: OWNED (2)
CHURCH: SPOKESMAN CLUB, GRADUATE CLUB, PRAYER, GREETER, SONG LEADER, Y.O.U. COACH, SPECIAL MUSIC, TALENT PARTICIPANT
FESTIVAL TRAVEL: HAWAII, JEKYLL ISLAND, PENSACOLA, CRUISE, VAIL, PASADENA, BIG SANDY
COUNSELING: STANDARD YEARLY VISIT.
COMMENTS:PILLAR IN LOCAL CHURCH, HIGH INCOME, STRONG BENEFIT TO LOCAL CHURCH. STRONG CANDIDATE FOR POTENTIAL ORDINATION TO DEACON/LOCAL CHURCH ELDER IF REQUIRED.
***********
MEMBER: JOE PUBLIC
BAPTISM DATE: 3/1/2309
MARITAL STATUS: S
STATUS: BAPTIZED MEMBER
JOB: BAGGER/STOCKER
INCOME: ESTIMATED 14,650
HOME: RENT
AUTO: OWNED
CHURCH: ATTENDS WEEKLY. TAPE LIBRARIAN.
FESTIVAL TRAVEL: LOCAL FESTIVAL SITE
COUNSELING: EXTENSIVE. NEEDS HIGHER INCOME JOB. DISPLAYS ATTITUDE PROBLEM WITH WORK AND INABILITY TO TAKE COUNSELING OR ADAPT TO CHANGE. UNMARRIED. CANNOT ATTRACT A MATE. ODDBALL IN MANY WAYS. MAY HAVE A SPIRITUAL PROBLEM, MAY NEED DISCIPLINARY ACTION IF SPIRITUAL PROBLEM PERSISTS OR IS UNWILLING TO TAKE MINISTERIAL ADVICE.
COMMENTS: GOOD LUCK TO THE NEXT PASTOR WITH THIS ONE.
*******************
But what if Joe Public led a different life to his perceived one ? Dating outside the church, earning more than declared, house owned not rented.
Its all in perception. I recall members driving BMWs but they were old, yet the leadership only saw the name brand. It is all rarther pathetic.
9:53AM
I'm not disagreeing with you but how do you know these things?
Are you headquarters?
Sorry, I meant are you at headquarters?
Some of the more ridiculous posters have likened cog to cults and the most stupid ones to scientology.
The real and probably most disappointing truth to dissenters is that not even the ministers dog would call on you if you walked out after 50 years.
And perhaps 2 friends who would stop calling if you asked them.
Funny that is a complaint.
No?
Nck
Yet on the other end of the spectrum, when my children were small...wait...that was when my then husband was making good money at a steady job (lost it because the job moved), anyway...the kids got sick with chicken-pox I think, one after the other, so I missed six weeks of church. I got a call from mr. minister asking me why I hadn't been to church in six weeks. I had to explain that my kids were sick.
At the feast one year, during the same time period, one of the kids got sick so we stayed in the motel with that child, and my ex got called into the office the next day and got bawled out for not being at church. Sheesh!
FFS
Sounds like a good husband not to leave you alone. Some extreme splinters have strict policies to not attend with sick children due to their "criminal" non vaccination policy.
Just before I left, attendance numbers at my Feast site fluctuated between 8000 and 12000 per day. At the time I knew/thought the church had turned "laodicean". But in reality I was bored by it all. I guess the others were too.
Nck
All I remember on any member file card was Name, address, phone, married or single . There was nothing personal. I realize this was rather long ago for me but I never knew personally of a local church file that was anything but who was a member and how to contact them. The only way to get an update on tithing was to ask HQ and , at that time, they were reluctant to give such info, to me at least, unless there was a good reason to know. This was my experience. Other experiences may vary. I can imagine some over zealous minister types, however, keeping their own kinds of files above and beyond the call of duty.
I recall telling a certain Mr Weston whose church I was being transferred into that I did not want to know all about "the members" at a lunch we had in the transition. I liked fresh and clean starts and wanted to tell the church in my first sermon that no such conversations ever took place and this was a good time for a fresh start if one thought they needed it. So sure was one woman that such conversations took place that when she met me the first sabbath, she said "Hi Mr. Diehl. I'm the woman who committed adultery." I took her aside, asked her to never say that again, that was not her identity nor who she was and what was her name? She looked at me and teared up. We had a nice hug and that was the end of it. Sad she felt that label was her's for life and someone made her feel that way. It was a memorable moment for her and me.
Nck
If you don't believe that the COGs are cults, then why are you on this blog???
Talking of Scientology, invalidating dissenting points of view is their main tool of control. This is the very thing you have been doing here for some time.
Nck the Invalidator.
If you read up on cults (eg, articles by the late Margaret Singer), you will find that the experience of researchers is that when there is a body of complaints, it's near certain that the accused organisation is a cult.
With your disregard for truth, you yourself are behaving like a cult leader.
Dennis,
Your response to that woman was the most Christian response anyone could have given her - hands down. Right down to the identity, nor who she was. "There is therefore now no condemnation". You handled that perfectly in my view.
Yes, I know you are atheist-agnostic-whatever. I have read all of your posts. I know your views. I understand the hurt and the trauma you went through in the Church. But you absolutely were a GOOD minister. You had it. You understood it. And I guarantee you that lady remembers you to this day for your kindness and forgiveness.
Thank you for being a shining light in such a dark hell-pit of a so-called church. They did not know what they had in you as a minister and Pastor.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Nck
Q:
If you don't believe that the COGs are cults, then why are you on this blog???
A:
I believe all churches are man made cults by definition. So either they all are or non are.
But I agree some are dangerous cults to mind and body.
Q:
Talking of Scientology, invalidating dissenting points of view is their main tool of control. This is the very thing you have been doing here for some time.
Nck the Invalidator.
A:
A good point can NEVER be invalidated. Either supporting or dissenting. Readers here know what is true in their experience. If their's resembles your experience they will see the merit in your remarks if it resembles my remarks they may pay attention to my postings.
Q:
If you read up on cults (eg, articles by the late Margaret Singer), you will find that the experience of researchers is that when there is a body of complaints, it's near certain that the accused organisation is a cult.
A:
I do not know of any organisation that does not garner a body of complaints. It is all a matter of definition. I will not cite the problems of the largest christian denomination since they are all over todays headlines. In the 16th century some Anabaptists in Munster also made even more accusations. They all went crazy and ended up hanging from the tower. Now who is the cult. The dissenters, the main body. Each his own.
Q:
With your disregard for truth, you yourself are behaving like a cult leader.
A:
I do not disregard the truth. My experience more or less resembles that of Dennis and many out there. I am pretty sure that the vast majority of ex members doees not share a view that they were either deceived or crazy people in their day, even if today they might agree with your assessment that cog shares your definition of a cult.
The vast majority just believed what they thought true at the time and may have changed their opinion today. In my assessment it was not a pre set up for deception. It was just another system that fitted the time and personality of some. And I met some good people.
I find it funny everytime a 'good guy" gets mentioned. Everyone is so certain they were the exception. I thing the loonies like flurry, pack, weinland et all were/ are the exception. Unfortunately they winded up in leadership positions.
nck
October 21, 2018 at 9:53 PM
"Deceived" or "crazy" are labels which the second generation ACOG members are not afraid to use on themselves. Deceived comes into play because the whole rotten system was foisted upon them by their parents, and crazy is totally appropriate because so many of those raised diligently according to the child rearing booklet were left to fight PTSD over a lifetime.
I do not respect the thinking processes of anyone who came to the conclusion on their own and without the influence of family that joining Armstrongism was a valid and proper solution to life. I can understand people being involved in it because they were forced to do so by their parents, but fortunately, so many of those folks realized what had been done to them, and left.
Scientology is a variant by degree of the cult experience. WCG ministers were intrusive, but at least they didn't regularly hook members up to E-meters and ask them deeply personal questions. Tithing was compulsory according to the tenets of WCG, but at least one was not required to purchase the literature to grow in level and rank in the organization. If any group outside of Armstrongism has deeper layers of legalism and internal gnosticism, it would most certainly be Scientology. Fortunately, the followers of L. Ron Hubbard have shrunken in numbers just as have the followers of Herbert W. Armstrong. You can actually discern without being told that one's approach was informed by his career as a science fiction writer, and the other by what he learned in the advertising field. Both are masters in at least temporarily taking control of the minds, whether to lead readers in escapist fantasy, or to mold thinking towards a tangible or intangible product.
Regarding SHT's comments,
Thumbs up to Dennis
Nck
Try reading Steven Hassans 'Combatting cult mind control.' By the definitions given in the book (eg, the dispensation of existence), not all churches are cults as you claim.
"A good point can never be invalidated?" Really? Why do you think verbal attacks permeate politics? You come up with personal definitions, which you then use to refute others points.
You are truly a city slicker lawyer. I'II hire you if I ever get arrested.
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