Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Just being alive is a blessing and if a person is properly cared for after they have been born they should have a happy childhood. Their life should continue to be enjoyed in the family if the family is filled with love and gentleness. Of course the parents will need to be filling all the needs that are necessary. When the children get to an age where they can manage their own lives they will have been shown what a good life really is. The problem is that the world in which they live may have a different view of what a good life is. The simplicity of life has been destroyed by the world in which we live. There is an ongoing rat race that gives the impression that a good life is measured by a cluttered up life promoted by the marketing of things that have nothing to do with a good life. ASB
Is all technology safe? Of course not. Is some technology dangerous? Absolutely. Are there good reasons to be skeptical of the alleged benefits of 5G wireless technology, and to think it has more to do with marketing and with making it easier to take consumers' money (and privacy)? Yes.
However, let's be realistic. Are some wireless companies a couple of years behind the others in rolling out 5G wireless technology? Yes! Do these companies benefit by encouraging consumers to delay in adopting 5G? OF COURSE!
Scott WInnail has a Ph.D, in public health. He of all people should understand the dangers of irrational scare-mongering. Yet, here he is, surrounded by two ministers with ABSOLUTELY NO training in physics or biology, making it sound as though "radiation" given off by 5G technology may cause all sorts of new illnesses.
Well, guess what ELSE produces radiation that affects human beings? THE SUN! LCG morons hear "radiation" and all they can think of is "It's like a nuclear bomb!" They genuinely don't understand the difference between non-ionizing radiation and ionizing radiation.
There is at least one very beneficial consequence of a presentation like this. NOBODY with serious science training will join a wacky religious group that feels qualified to make such ignorant pronouncements. If they can be so wrong about something so simple, why would anyone assume that they could be trusted to teach Jesus Christ's message accurately? In fact, HOW IS THIS FALSE NONSENSE even related to the message of Jesus Christ? If COGWA wants to see a first-rate example of what NOT to do to gain members, this stupid video could be Exhibit #1.
When Daniel 11:29-30 is fulfilled within the next year or so, then many of you will understand that it is about the Word of God, not the barking of vain men...
yochanan...you and the rest of the Armstrongites have been shouting this message of death and damnation for decades. Its always 2 more years. Give it a rest and admit you were conned by a con man and a lair. Nothing the church taught was ever true.
Does this now mean that every month "it couldn't get any worse" is a lie? What should I now do with the pre-addressed envelope that I receive every month with the "it couldn't get any worse" letter?
Most of these men most likely have always quoted 1 Thess. 5 to counter act any thinking by the membership that they are indeed living in peaceful and prosperous times. A savvy COG leader can stimulate a great deal of fear in the membership by elaborating that the day of judgement like a thief and sudden destruction not expected is an any moment happening.
Many of us have spent many years believing that the only way the world could get any better is by putting money in an envelope and sending it to one man. It is no wonder why many men decided that they should be that one man that gets all the envelopes!
When Daniel 11:29-30 is fulfilled within the next year or so, then many of you will understand that it is about the Word of God, not the barking of vain men...
TLA The holy spirit has confirmed to me that America will be militarily vanquished, and its surviving population taken into slavery. I've been informed that I'II live to see it, and I'm in my sixties. So it can't be 200 years in the future. And no, I can't prove this to others. Just presenting my opinion for others to consider.
I wondered why that was posted here. I didn't realize that it was to prove that the bible is wrong about things that are bad in the world and the preachers who focus on that are doing damage to people. I agree that using the bad things going on in the world today is not what God desires, but to say everything is great and the world is solving all its problems so we don't need God is not going to encourage people who are suffering on the down side of life in the world today. ASB
8:40 ~ You are just as deluded as HWA, David “bent” Ariel, Bob Thiel, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland, David Koresh, Jim Jones, James Malm, Harold Camping, Jack van Impe, etc. etc. etc. It is not the Holy Spirit you are listening to. You should check yourself into the nearest psych ward.
If you want to do something real, you should be working on reducing your carbon footprint.
It is good to have people speak out about societal ills, or critique harmful customs, but over the past 3-4 decades, I’ve watched people with all manner of agendas sink down and take the low road, take the easy shot, using fear motivation to turbo-charge their message.
That generally does not bring about change. It causes an unintended consequence, heightening peoples’ anxiety. Heart attacks, tumors, gunmen going postal, depression, alcohol and drug abuse, and paranoia are all exacerbated by the use of fear motivation. Trouble is, the dosage must be constantly raised to continue to be effective as people build a tolerance. It is altogether fitting that there should be exposes on this, and social scientists speaking out in it. Rhetoric needs to be ratcheted down for ideas to be absorbed.
Fear motivation was always responsible for much of the crappy lifestyle of Armstrongism. Notice how the regulars who are still totally or partially infected are the ones taking umbrage with this blog entry. Recovery, people. Balance, not hysteria.
cf ben yochanan cited Daniel 11:29-30 and declared that the prophecy would come to pass within a year or two. He defended his idea with the declaration "i believe the prophets. . ."
Let's check what Daniel said: (29) At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. (30) For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Okay, then, in context. Persia (modern name Iran) is due for an invasion by an unnamed king of the north. I get that part. Sorry, but I missed the part where it is supposed to happen during 2019-20.
Another thing: I'm pretty sure Chittim has no navy right now, since it no longer exists. It would take way too long for a country as nonexistent as Chittim is to collect enough taxes from its hypothetical citizens to fund a crash program by its nonexistent shipbuilding industry to build an armada for invading Iran on such short notice.
So here is my prophecy to compete with the one by c f b y. I make no commitment whether Iran will get invaded by somebody in a couple of years or not. Maybe so, maybe not. But I proclaim with confidence that, if it is, it will not be the Chittish navy that attacks it.
Unfortunately Dan 11:29-30 was fulfilled over 2100 years ago”
Da 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. Da 11:30 For the ships of Chittim [see Gauis Popillius below] shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
“In 168 BC, a Roman Consul named Gaius Popillius Laenas drew a circular line in the sand around King Antiochus IV of the Seleucid Empire, then said, "Before you cross this circle I want you to give me a reply for the Roman Senate" – implying that Rome would declare war if the King stepped out of the circle without committing to leave Egypt immediately. Weighing his options, Antiochus wisely decided to withdraw. Only then did Popillius agree to shake hands with him” (Wikipedia).
“The more exact chronology of Antiochus’s later act of desecration is set forth in these verses. The “outcome” (v.29) was different this time because he was compelled by Popilius Laenas to withdraw from Egypt altogether. From the preceding discussion, it is evident that it was the followers of Menelius, who made no protest as Antiochus removed the holy vessels from the Holy Place of the Temple, who are referred to here as “those who forsake the holy covenant” (Gkeason L. Archer Jr., EBC, Vol. 7, p.139).
Da 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
It appears, because of his humiliation by the Romans he was "Disposed to hate the Jews, he sent the Mysarch Apollonius with an army of twenty-two thousand, under orders to butcher all men who were of age and to sell the women as slaves. On his arrival at Jerusalem, Apollonius pretended to have peaceful intentions. He waited until the sacred Sabbath day. Sure that the Jews were resting, he ordered his troops to fall into armed formation and had them stab all who had gone out to see the spectacle. Then, dashing into the city with his soldiers, he laid a considerable multitude low" (2 Maccabees 5:23b-26).
"The stress of the message is on Antiochus Epiphanes (vv. 21-35) and the Antichrist (vv. 36-45), the former typifying the latter. Again an implied time gap exists between the two. Neither is identified by name, but only by description of character and actions, something found true also in the previous contexts considered..." (Leon J. Wood, A Commentary on Daniel, p.280).
Da 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
"Up to this point, the prophecy dealing with the Persian and Grecian Empires has been fulfilled minutely and with amazing precision. Beginning with verse 36, however, an entirely different situation obtains...
"Because of the completely unsatisfactory explanation of an historical fulfillment of verse 36-45 in contrast with the precise fulfillment of the earlier portion, conservative expositor's relate this passage to the climax of history culminating in the second advent of Christ. This, of course, is in keeping with the total tenor of Daniel's prophecies which characteristically have their climax at the end of this interadvent age and the triumph of the kingdom of heaven which the Son of man will accomplish when he returns. This passage, therefore, is to be considered as contemporaneous with the climax of chapter 2, the destruction of the image, and the destruction of the little horn of Daniel 7, a period described in the book of Revelation, chapter 6-19" (John F. Walvoord, Daniel - The Key to Prophetic Revelation, pp.270-71).
BB When the holy spirit communicates to a person, it has a unique emotional feel. This is very different to what people in psych awards might experience. As I said, the emotion is unique. That you haven't experienced this is a confession on your part of your spiritual state.
Carbon footprint? The whole purpose of supposed climate change is to justify imposing the draconian control that members of HWAs abusive cult experienced. So you have left one cult, only to join another. As well as justifying the wolf devouring you. Have you considered going solo rather than always being in some type of cult?
ur being contrary for contrarian sake; when Daniel 11:29-30 is indeed fulfilled, u still wont believe, but instead you will look for more clever arguments to justify the invisible force what motivates u...
Re Dan. 11:29-30 I think you’re about 2000 years too late. I’m under the impression those verses had already been fulfilled in ancient times see https://www.ukapologetics.net/2danieltrue.html
Retired Prof, Chittim (or Kittim) was the term for the area of Cyprus, but was also used in Hebrew literature as a wider term for "The West". The west does still exist and does have a navy so this does not make the scriptures in Daniel unable to be brought to realization. The biblical names may be archaic (pertaining to the time the scriptures were written and not when these events would happen) but all we have to do is see which area those names covered in Biblical times in order to see which countries are meant in the modern world. By that means, we can work out where exactly Ammon, Edom, Put, Lydia, Persia, Gog, etc. are on a modern map and match those areas with their corresponding prophecies. (Your assessment of cfby is however completely correct - we may be able to work out the lands/countries involved in endtime prophecies, but we have no way of knowing the timescale or exact dates which will only be evident when these things happen or slightly before).
@1:32 ~ Rave on, Rasputin. You forget, I have experienced that Holy Spirit buzz while praying. He does not verify the HWAcaca, though there are plainly dozens of people who feel that they have been called to revise and repeat HWA's false prophecies as if they had only been delayed. When God fails to validate them by keeping the date, they all make excuses, and eventually do die, victims of unrequited prophecy. You too will experience that, and it will be the great mystery of your life, if indeed you are sincere, and not just another shit stirrer.
Anon 5:29 AM, thanks for your post. I wondered why "Chittim" had a plural suffix and knew it was unlikely to refer to a nation, but was having so much fun being a smartass that I didn't take time to look up why. Now with your comment and the one by Yes and No to HWA I know a whole lot more than I did last night. Satisfying.
8:32 ~ Idea-producing events happen throughout the day, in between posts. During the time gap between the posts you mentioned, I was reading up on the plight of the Himalayan glaciers. These feed ten of the world's great rivers, rivers which support millions of people and hundreds of civilizations. The glaciers are a buffer, storing and releasing fresh water somewhat on the same scale as the polar ice caps. These glaciers are suffering an accelerated retreat, not as fast as in original flawed computer models, but still at a rate that if the acceleration is not reversed, it will have international geopolitical ramifications starting mid century. It's science, it's measurable, and it is happening. As a balanced person might do in preparing for a hurricane, there are preparations and changes which people can make today. We don't have to be lemmings listening to our pied piper and storming towards our destruction. At the zenith of HWA's false prophecies, I was asking "What if it doesn't happen?" Unlike some of our brethren, I attempted to take into account both scenarios, and to be prepared for either, hoping of course for the best outcome, but prepared for the worst. Many of our ostrich-like brethren buried their heads in the sand and filtered out real time information and data which would have been very useful in their lives. I see a parallel in today's partisan attitudes towards climate change. Had we taken the same attitudes towards chlorofluorocarbons a few decades ago, the ozone layer would have been destroyed by this point in time, rather than on its way to recovery. We actually have people today who are indoctrinated to believe that plastics in the oceans are harmless, that it's perfectly fine to dispose of nuclear wastes in the ocean, and that fishing beyond the capacity of the different species of fish to maintain population is harmless.
In the ACOGs, the prevailing attitude has always been the end is coming, nothing we can do, so lets just maintain our lifestyle as long as we can. What if that is wrong?
i never mentioned iran...but clearly the signs of the times puts iran in mind, dont it...
and given all the other things being currently fulfilled in Daniel 11:20-45 in general, its not unreasonable to make the connection between the scripture and current events...
c f ben yochanan, Your full of shit. Try studying how your bible came to be. Mans word about the god(s) he created in the image of man with all of mans aptitudes.
The problem comes into play when you equate the two, 9:28. When he teaches a prophecy, a false teacher includes his own spin, which changes peoples’ perception of the prophecy pretty much for life. So when ACOG people think about a prophecy, they remember what they were taught about it including the spin, when the Bible was either non-specific about some of the details or said something completely different. We see it every day! Someone says, “the Bible states...”, and then repeats exactly what HWA had said instead.
Remember, HWA whored up every single prophecy he ever preached about with his British Israel theories, with his German Assyrian theories, and he created false national identities by which people are still mislead today and don’t even know that they are mislead! The US and BC were melting pots even back in the 1600s. There was not any type of tribal purity about them even then. The very idea is preposterous!
unable to argue ur point of view, you devolve to base insults; the human equivalent of a barking dog or a grunting hog...perhaps in ur bizarro world that kind of vile language is legitimate public discourse, but my experience has showm me that people in the wrong generally use such behavior as a crutch...
as was memtioned by another regular poster: that kind of behavior and language does not help ur cause...
someone on this blog once asked why i chose to remain anon? clearly to minimize my exposure to boorish insults and name calling by they what are clearly irrational...you have not distinguished urself from the typical mean spirited trolls that currently plague our society, and frankly that is a good thing cuz it puts you squarely in the camp of they who are always in the wrong...
Well done, Sept 20, 12:11, your understanding of Dan 11 is pretty good. As for Dan 11:29-30, you're right to say that it was fulfilled in 168 BC and shortly thereafter when Antiochus colluded with the one who "forsook the holy covenant" -- no less than the high priest Menelaus himself. Ben Yoch seems to think that there is another fulfillment coming. If so, it might not be until the very last days when the beast (a type of Antiochus) goes down to attack Egypt, meets resistance from his own army, then retreats to the temple to stop the sacrifices in exchange for personal glorification, teaming up with those who "forsake the holy covenant". V29 does indicate 3 fulfillments: an earlier, later and current period.
As for Dan 11:36-45, contrary to what the author says, there is a "satisfactory explanation for the historical fulfillment" of v36-39 if you know your basic ancient history books. Re v40-45, that fulfillment is just a few years away.
oh, and regarding ur observation that chittim no longer exists: i am a descendant of scottish, cherokee and african peoples, but today i am merely african american...
the descendants of chittim wouldnt necessarily be called the chittish...surely you understand the phenomena of evolution of language and cultures...
Retired Prof, you are very welcome. I was born into the WWCG and only left one of the splinters a few years ago after nearly 40 years. It was only then, that I discovered this whole new layer of prophetic disclosure simply by finding out who each of the countries mentioned would be in the modern world, and also dropping the whole "It's all about us(the COG's and where WE live" theology and starting to look at prophetic end-times through the actual literal words in the bible which very much puts Israel right in the middle of events to come. The worst thing to happen to the COGs was the internet. It's becoming increasingly difficult to convince people that the church knows all about prophecy and they are the only ones who will address it as, from the internet, we can now see that it is simply not true - there are many churches interested in prophecy, who tackle the Book of Revelation often, and have a far deeper understanding of what is going on and what still has to happen. It is also amazing that a church who doesn't seem to have any interest in finding out which modern-day area of the world relates to which archaic biblical country reference (although we all know that this is strategic rather than naivety as then their predictions would be proved false), can only do it once and be so dogmatic and spectacularly wrong about it - that Assyria is Germany!
Descendants disappear through assimilation. That is one of the lessons of history. The group that assimilates them generally has the dominant characteristics which override the characteristics of those who were assimilated (the characteristics of the assimilated then being reduced to a minor influence). Even the non-intellectuals who fear-monger about the disappearance of the white races understand this. The only people who do not, seem to be adherents to British Israelism, who believe that two largely pure tribes called Manasseh and Ephraim were supernaturally separated from one another sometime in the 1600s to become the US and BC.
“As for Dan 11:36-45, contrary to what the author says, there is a "satisfactory explanation for the historical fulfillment" of v36-39 if you know your basic ancient history books. Re v40-45, that fulfillment is just a few years away.”
I am aware of the differences of opinions on vv.36-39 or 36-45.
I prefer to see 36-45 as the antitype (horizontal typology) which refers to the end time; allowing for typical fulfillment; and that 36-39 while referring to the endtime is not chronologically before 40-45 - an extended hysteron-proteron.
I would be surprised if the start of vv 40-45 begins within the next ten years.
Da 9:26b and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
2 Macc 5:5a ... a false rumor arose that Antiochus was dead (NRSV).
While I see a type-antitype with 9:26, with 9:26 describing the time of the Antichrist - I do not see the Antichrist meeting resistance from his own army - though around this time the Antichrist gets assassinated and resurrected.
The ACOGs, as “good stewards” should be endorsing and funding Greta Thunberg. But, that’s not in their dna. They actually relish anything that hastens the fulfillment to their prophecies, as opposed to becoming involved in solutions for problems that have totally rational and practical solutions.
If you paid attention to previous postings when other people made the same baseless accusation you would know that Google does not always let through hyperlinks and extremely long postings. If you are so easily butthurt when you links don't come through, then don't post them.
Hey, it’s just like it used to be when writing letters to the editor of a newspaper or magazine. Not everything makes the cut. Back in the dinosaur days of the LA Times and Pasadena Star News, Hot Rod, and Rolling Stone magazines, some of my stuff used to headline the letters to editor section. But there were plenty of other instances where my hard work went directly into some editor’s circular file.
Most professional writers spend years getting rejection notices, or endure the indignity of someone else getting the byline for their work. Rejection eventually makes writers stronger! It’s not as if it’s your “right” to be published.
Good point, Ben, but in the world of Armstrongism, we have a unique phenomenon in that there are those who have been caught off guard by Jesus’ nonreturn. Ever since 1975, they’ve dutifully readjusted their timelines every three to five years, and have thus wasted their entire lives enslaved by a false system.
10:08pm You do realize that there's a difference between belief in the actual "Word of God" and your interpretation of what the "Word of God" says don't you? Disagreeing with you isn't disbelief in the Word of God!
51 comments:
Ecc. 9:4 (NIV) Anyone who is among the living has hope --even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
Just being alive is a blessing and if a person is properly cared for after they have been born they should have a happy childhood. Their life should continue to be enjoyed in the family if the family is filled with love and gentleness. Of course the parents will need to be filling all the needs that are necessary. When the children get to an age where they can manage their own lives they will have been shown what a good life really is. The problem is that the world in which they live may have a different view of what a good life is. The simplicity of life has been destroyed by the world in which we live. There is an ongoing rat race that gives the impression that a good life is measured by a cluttered up life promoted by the marketing of things that have nothing to do with a good life. ASB
Life is good, indeed. You would never know this if all you ever listened to was ACOG nonsense, like this:
5G Technology: A Blessing or a Curse?
Is all technology safe? Of course not. Is some technology dangerous? Absolutely. Are there good reasons to be skeptical of the alleged benefits of 5G wireless technology, and to think it has more to do with marketing and with making it easier to take consumers' money (and privacy)? Yes.
However, let's be realistic. Are some wireless companies a couple of years behind the others in rolling out 5G wireless technology? Yes! Do these companies benefit by encouraging consumers to delay in adopting 5G? OF COURSE!
Scott WInnail has a Ph.D, in public health. He of all people should understand the dangers of irrational scare-mongering. Yet, here he is, surrounded by two ministers with ABSOLUTELY NO training in physics or biology, making it sound as though "radiation" given off by 5G technology may cause all sorts of new illnesses.
Well, guess what ELSE produces radiation that affects human beings? THE SUN! LCG morons hear "radiation" and all they can think of is "It's like a nuclear bomb!" They genuinely don't understand the difference between non-ionizing radiation and ionizing radiation.
There is at least one very beneficial consequence of a presentation like this. NOBODY with serious science training will join a wacky religious group that feels qualified to make such ignorant pronouncements. If they can be so wrong about something so simple, why would anyone assume that they could be trusted to teach Jesus Christ's message accurately? In fact, HOW IS THIS FALSE NONSENSE even related to the message of Jesus Christ? If COGWA wants to see a first-rate example of what NOT to do to gain members, this stupid video could be Exhibit #1.
When Daniel 11:29-30 is fulfilled within the next year or so, then many of you will understand that it is about the Word of God, not the barking of vain men...
c f ben yochanan
please stop censoring me...
yochanan...you and the rest of the Armstrongites have been shouting this message of death and damnation for decades. Its always 2 more years. Give it a rest and admit you were conned by a con man and a lair. Nothing the church taught was ever true.
Does this now mean that every month "it couldn't get any worse" is a lie? What should I now do with the pre-addressed envelope that I receive every month with the "it couldn't get any worse" letter?
Most of these men most likely have always quoted 1 Thess. 5 to counter act any thinking by the membership that they are indeed living in peaceful and prosperous times. A savvy COG leader can stimulate a great deal of fear in the membership by elaborating that the day of judgement like a thief and sudden destruction not expected is an any moment happening.
Many of us have spent many years believing that the only way the world could get any better is by putting money in an envelope and sending it to one man. It is no wonder why many men decided that they should be that one man that gets all the envelopes!
i quoted the prophet Daniel, not any cog doctrine...i believe the prophets...
c f ben yochanan
i also believe Yeshua when He Commanded us to observe the signs of the times...
c f ben yochanan
????????
When Daniel 11:29-30 is fulfilled within the next year or so, then many of you will understand that it is about the Word of God, not the barking of vain men...
c f ben yochanan
Sure - what is the "or so"? 2 to 200 years?
TLA
The holy spirit has confirmed to me that America will be militarily vanquished, and its surviving population taken into slavery. I've been informed that I'II live to see it, and I'm in my sixties. So it can't be 200 years in the future.
And no, I can't prove this to others. Just presenting my opinion for others to consider.
I wondered why that was posted here. I didn't realize that it was to prove that the bible is wrong about things that are bad in the world and the preachers who focus on that are doing damage to people.
I agree that using the bad things going on in the world today is not what God desires, but to say everything is great and the world is solving all its problems so we don't need God is not going to encourage people who are suffering on the down side of life in the world today. ASB
8:40 ~ You are just as deluded as HWA, David “bent” Ariel, Bob Thiel, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland, David Koresh, Jim Jones, James Malm, Harold Camping, Jack van Impe, etc. etc. etc. It is not the Holy Spirit you are listening to. You should check yourself into the nearest psych ward.
If you want to do something real, you should be working on reducing your carbon footprint.
BB
It is good to have people speak out about societal ills, or critique harmful customs, but over the past 3-4 decades, I’ve watched people with all manner of agendas sink down and take the low road, take the easy shot, using fear motivation to turbo-charge their message.
That generally does not bring about change. It causes an unintended consequence, heightening peoples’ anxiety. Heart attacks, tumors, gunmen going postal, depression, alcohol and drug abuse, and paranoia are all exacerbated by the use of fear motivation. Trouble is, the dosage must be constantly raised to continue to be effective as people build a tolerance. It is altogether fitting that there should be exposes on this, and social scientists speaking out in it. Rhetoric needs to be ratcheted down for ideas to be absorbed.
Fear motivation was always responsible for much of the crappy lifestyle of Armstrongism. Notice how the regulars who are still totally or partially infected are the ones taking umbrage with this blog entry. Recovery, people. Balance, not hysteria.
BB
cf ben yochanan cited Daniel 11:29-30 and declared that the prophecy would come to pass within a year or two. He defended his idea with the declaration "i believe the prophets. . ."
Let's check what Daniel said:
(29) At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
(30) For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Okay, then, in context. Persia (modern name Iran) is due for an invasion by an unnamed king of the north. I get that part. Sorry, but I missed the part where it is supposed to happen during 2019-20.
Another thing: I'm pretty sure Chittim has no navy right now, since it no longer exists. It would take way too long for a country as nonexistent as Chittim is to collect enough taxes from its hypothetical citizens to fund a crash program by its nonexistent shipbuilding industry to build an armada for invading Iran on such short notice.
So here is my prophecy to compete with the one by c f b y. I make no commitment whether Iran will get invaded by somebody in a couple of years or not. Maybe so, maybe not. But I proclaim with confidence that, if it is, it will not be the Chittish navy that attacks it.
Unfortunately Dan 11:29-30 was fulfilled over 2100 years ago”
Da 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
Da 11:30 For the ships of Chittim [see Gauis Popillius below] shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
“In 168 BC, a Roman Consul named Gaius Popillius Laenas drew a circular line in the sand around King Antiochus IV of the Seleucid Empire, then said, "Before you cross this circle I want you to give me a reply for the Roman Senate" – implying that Rome would declare war if the King stepped out of the circle without committing to leave Egypt immediately. Weighing his options, Antiochus wisely decided to withdraw. Only then did Popillius agree to shake hands with him” (Wikipedia).
“The more exact chronology of Antiochus’s later act of desecration is set forth in these verses. The “outcome” (v.29) was different this time because he was compelled by Popilius Laenas to withdraw from Egypt altogether. From the preceding discussion, it is evident that it was the followers of Menelius, who made no protest as Antiochus removed the holy vessels from the Holy Place of the Temple, who are referred to here as “those who forsake the holy covenant” (Gkeason L. Archer Jr., EBC, Vol. 7, p.139).
Da 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
It appears, because of his humiliation by the Romans he was "Disposed to hate the Jews, he sent the Mysarch Apollonius with an army of twenty-two thousand, under orders to butcher all men who were of age and to sell the women as slaves. On his arrival at Jerusalem, Apollonius pretended to have peaceful intentions. He waited until the sacred Sabbath day. Sure that the Jews were resting, he ordered his troops to fall into armed formation and had them stab all who had gone out to see the spectacle. Then, dashing into the city with his soldiers, he laid a considerable multitude low" (2 Maccabees 5:23b-26).
"The stress of the message is on Antiochus Epiphanes (vv. 21-35) and the Antichrist (vv. 36-45), the former typifying the latter. Again an implied time gap exists between the two. Neither is identified by name, but only by description of character and actions, something found true also in the previous contexts considered..." (Leon J. Wood, A Commentary on Daniel, p.280).
Da 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
"Up to this point, the prophecy dealing with the Persian and Grecian Empires has been fulfilled minutely and with amazing precision. Beginning with verse 36, however, an entirely different situation obtains...
"Because of the completely unsatisfactory explanation of an historical fulfillment of verse 36-45 in contrast with the precise fulfillment of the earlier portion, conservative expositor's relate this passage to the climax of history culminating in the second advent of Christ. This, of course, is in keeping with the total tenor of Daniel's prophecies which characteristically have their climax at the end of this interadvent age and the triumph of the kingdom of heaven which the Son of man will accomplish when he returns. This passage, therefore, is to be considered as contemporaneous with the climax of chapter 2, the destruction of the image, and the destruction of the little horn of Daniel 7, a period described in the book of Revelation, chapter 6-19" (John F. Walvoord, Daniel - The Key to Prophetic Revelation, pp.270-71).
BB
When the holy spirit communicates to a person, it has a unique emotional feel. This is very different to what people in psych awards might experience. As I said, the emotion is unique. That you haven't experienced this is a confession on your part of your spiritual state.
Carbon footprint? The whole purpose of supposed climate change is to justify imposing the draconian control that members of HWAs abusive cult experienced. So you have left one cult, only to join another. As well as justifying the wolf devouring you.
Have you considered going solo rather than always being in some type of cult?
ur being contrary for contrarian sake; when Daniel 11:29-30 is indeed fulfilled, u still wont believe, but instead you will look for more clever arguments to justify the invisible force what motivates u...
c f ben yochanan
Re Dan. 11:29-30 I think you’re about 2000 years too late. I’m under the impression those verses had already been fulfilled in ancient times see https://www.ukapologetics.net/2danieltrue.html
Talk about people who run off at the mouth:
Where is all the pagan xmas activities that you keep raving on about?
Like diarrhea of the mouth!
Retired Prof, Chittim (or Kittim) was the term for the area of Cyprus, but was also used in Hebrew literature as a wider term for "The West". The west does still exist and does have a navy so this does not make the scriptures in Daniel unable to be brought to realization.
The biblical names may be archaic (pertaining to the time the scriptures were written and not when these events would happen) but all we have to do is see which area those names covered in Biblical times in order to see which countries are meant in the modern world. By that means, we can work out where exactly Ammon, Edom, Put, Lydia, Persia, Gog, etc. are on a modern map and match those areas with their corresponding prophecies.
(Your assessment of cfby is however completely correct - we may be able to work out the lands/countries involved in endtime prophecies, but we have no way of knowing the timescale or exact dates which will only be evident when these things happen or slightly before).
@1:32 ~ Rave on, Rasputin. You forget, I have experienced that Holy Spirit buzz while praying. He does not verify the HWAcaca, though there are plainly dozens of people who feel that they have been called to revise and repeat HWA's false prophecies as if they had only been delayed. When God fails to validate them by keeping the date, they all make excuses, and eventually do die, victims of unrequited prophecy.
You too will experience that, and it will be the great mystery of your life, if indeed you are sincere, and not just another shit stirrer.
BB
BB's 9:59pm post was so good, makes me wonder if it was the same person who wrote the 9:39pm post. Balance not hysteria vs. carbon footprint. lol
Daniel 11:20-45 in general is being fulfilled before our very eyes; its not as if its just Daniel 11:29-30...
11:29:30 is just a piece of the whole scenario being played out in our generation...
and as the apostle Saul said in 2 Thessalonians: the revelation of the man of sin is the prelude to the Return of Christ...
c f ben yochanan
Anon 5:29 AM, thanks for your post. I wondered why "Chittim" had a plural suffix and knew it was unlikely to refer to a nation, but was having so much fun being a smartass that I didn't take time to look up why. Now with your comment and the one by Yes and No to HWA I know a whole lot more than I did last night. Satisfying.
BB
False predictions by preachers does not invalidate the bible or its prophecies.
8:32 ~ Idea-producing events happen throughout the day, in between posts. During the time gap between the posts you mentioned, I was reading up on the plight of the Himalayan glaciers. These feed ten of the world's great rivers, rivers which support millions of people and hundreds of civilizations. The glaciers are a buffer, storing and releasing fresh water somewhat on the same scale as the polar ice caps. These glaciers are suffering an accelerated retreat, not as fast as in original flawed computer models, but still at a rate that if the acceleration is not reversed, it will have international geopolitical ramifications starting mid century. It's science, it's measurable, and it is happening. As a balanced person might do in preparing for a hurricane, there are preparations and changes which people can make today. We don't have to be lemmings listening to our pied piper and storming towards our destruction. At the zenith of HWA's false prophecies, I was asking "What if it doesn't happen?" Unlike some of our brethren, I attempted to take into account both scenarios, and to be prepared for either, hoping of course for the best outcome, but prepared for the worst. Many of our ostrich-like brethren buried their heads in the sand and filtered out real time information and data which would have been very useful in their lives. I see a parallel in today's partisan attitudes towards climate change. Had we taken the same attitudes towards chlorofluorocarbons a few decades ago, the ozone layer would have been destroyed by this point in time, rather than on its way to recovery. We actually have people today who are indoctrinated to believe that plastics in the oceans are harmless, that it's perfectly fine to dispose of nuclear wastes in the ocean, and that fishing beyond the capacity of the different species of fish to maintain population is harmless.
In the ACOGs, the prevailing attitude has always been the end is coming, nothing we can do, so lets just maintain our lifestyle as long as we can. What if that is wrong?
BB
i never mentioned iran...but clearly the signs of the times puts iran in mind, dont it...
and given all the other things being currently fulfilled in Daniel 11:20-45 in general, its not unreasonable to make the connection between the scripture and current events...
c f ben yochanan
c f ben yochanan,
Your full of shit. Try studying how your bible came to be. Mans word about the god(s) he created in the image of man with all of mans aptitudes.
The problem comes into play when you equate the two, 9:28. When he teaches a prophecy, a false teacher includes his own spin, which changes peoples’ perception of the prophecy pretty much for life. So when ACOG people think about a prophecy, they remember what they were taught about it including the spin, when the Bible was either non-specific about some of the details or said something completely different. We see it every day! Someone says, “the Bible states...”, and then repeats exactly what HWA had said instead.
Remember, HWA whored up every single prophecy he ever preached about with his British Israel theories, with his German Assyrian theories, and he created false national identities by which people are still mislead today and don’t even know that they are mislead! The US and BC were melting pots even back in the 1600s. There was not any type of tribal purity about them even then. The very idea is preposterous!
BB
unable to argue ur point of view, you devolve to base insults; the human equivalent of a barking dog or a grunting hog...perhaps in ur bizarro world that kind of vile language is legitimate public discourse, but my experience has showm me that people in the wrong generally use such behavior as a crutch...
as was memtioned by another regular poster: that kind of behavior and language does not help ur cause...
someone on this blog once asked why i chose to remain anon? clearly to minimize my exposure to boorish insults and name calling by they what are clearly irrational...you have not distinguished urself from the typical mean spirited trolls that currently plague our society, and frankly that is a good thing cuz it puts you squarely in the camp of they who are always in the wrong...
c f ben yochanan
Well done, Sept 20, 12:11, your understanding of Dan 11 is pretty good. As for Dan 11:29-30, you're right to say that it was fulfilled in 168 BC and shortly thereafter when Antiochus colluded with the one who "forsook the holy covenant" -- no less than the high priest Menelaus himself. Ben Yoch seems to think that there is another fulfillment coming. If so, it might not be until the very last days when the beast (a type of Antiochus) goes down to attack Egypt, meets resistance from his own army, then retreats to the temple to stop the sacrifices in exchange for personal glorification, teaming up with those who "forsake the holy covenant". V29 does indicate 3 fulfillments: an earlier, later and current period.
As for Dan 11:36-45, contrary to what the author says, there is a "satisfactory explanation for the historical fulfillment" of v36-39 if you know your basic ancient history books. Re v40-45, that fulfillment is just a few years away.
oh, and regarding ur observation that chittim no longer exists: i am a descendant of scottish, cherokee and african peoples, but today i am merely african american...
the descendants of chittim wouldnt necessarily be called the chittish...surely you understand the phenomena of evolution of language and cultures...
c f ben yochanan
Retired Prof, you are very welcome.
I was born into the WWCG and only left one of the splinters a few years ago after nearly 40 years. It was only then, that I discovered this whole new layer of prophetic disclosure simply by finding out who each of the countries mentioned would be in the modern world, and also dropping the whole "It's all about us(the COG's and where WE live" theology and starting to look at prophetic end-times through the actual literal words in the bible which very much puts Israel right in the middle of events to come.
The worst thing to happen to the COGs was the internet. It's becoming increasingly difficult to convince people that the church knows all about prophecy and they are the only ones who will address it as, from the internet, we can now see that it is simply not true - there are many churches interested in prophecy, who tackle the Book of Revelation often, and have a far deeper understanding of what is going on and what still has to happen.
It is also amazing that a church who doesn't seem to have any interest in finding out which modern-day area of the world relates to which archaic biblical country reference (although we all know that this is strategic rather than naivety as then their predictions would be proved false), can only do it once and be so dogmatic and spectacularly wrong about it - that Assyria is Germany!
Descendants disappear through assimilation. That is one of the lessons of history. The group that assimilates them generally has the dominant characteristics which override the characteristics of those who were assimilated (the characteristics of the assimilated then being reduced to a minor influence). Even the non-intellectuals who fear-monger about the disappearance of the white races understand this. The only people who do not, seem to be adherents to British Israelism, who believe that two largely pure tribes called Manasseh and Ephraim were supernaturally separated from one another sometime in the 1600s to become the US and BC.
BB
"At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter." Daniel 11:29
these things are not happening as isolated incidents, are part of a distinct mirroring of Daniel 11:20-45...
c f ben yochanan
Hi 1:52.
Thanks for the comment.
You write:
“As for Dan 11:36-45, contrary to what the author says, there is a "satisfactory explanation for the historical fulfillment" of v36-39 if you know your basic ancient history books. Re v40-45, that fulfillment is just a few years away.”
I am aware of the differences of opinions on vv.36-39 or 36-45.
I prefer to see 36-45 as the antitype (horizontal typology) which refers to the end time; allowing for typical fulfillment; and that 36-39 while referring to the endtime is not chronologically before 40-45 - an extended hysteron-proteron.
I would be surprised if the start of vv 40-45 begins within the next ten years.
Da 9:26b and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
2 Macc 5:5a ... a false rumor arose that Antiochus was dead (NRSV).
While I see a type-antitype with 9:26, with 9:26 describing the time of the Antichrist - I do not see the Antichrist meeting resistance from his own army - though around this time the Antichrist gets assassinated and resurrected.
Googling Chittim, the label cash also apply to northern China.
The ACOGs, as “good stewards” should be endorsing and funding Greta Thunberg. But, that’s not in their dna. They actually relish anything that hastens the fulfillment to their prophecies, as opposed to becoming involved in solutions for problems that have totally rational and practical solutions.
BB
i have posted links to current news events that i think correlate to Daniel 11:29-30 but the admins of this blog keep blocking such posts...
c f ben yochanan
indeed, a sino/russian military collaboration against the "west" is not without historical precedence...
its actually par for the course; spiritual course, that is...
c f ben yochanan
Yochanan...
If you paid attention to previous postings when other people made the same baseless accusation you would know that Google does not always let through hyperlinks and extremely long postings. If you are so easily butthurt when you links don't come through, then don't post them.
Hey, it’s just like it used to be when writing letters to the editor of a newspaper or magazine. Not everything makes the cut. Back in the dinosaur days of the LA Times and Pasadena Star News, Hot Rod, and Rolling Stone magazines, some of my stuff used to headline the letters to editor section. But there were plenty of other instances where my hard work went directly into some editor’s circular file.
Most professional writers spend years getting rejection notices, or endure the indignity of someone else getting the byline for their work. Rejection eventually makes writers stronger! It’s not as if it’s your “right” to be published.
BB
i get th concept: its like how none of you will be entering into His Rest...
c f ben yochanan
Thankfully, you won’t be our judge there, either, Ben. That burden is off your shoulders.
BB
You'd think ben would fear making such a statement given that my bible says that with what judgement you judge others, you too will be judged.
Kevin
ur own behavior and nonbelief is ur judge, not me; the Word of God is ur judge, not i...
Jesus made clear in the Gospels that there would be they who at one time believed, but ceased to, and were totally caught off guard by His Return...
c f ben yochanan
Good point, Ben, but in the world of Armstrongism, we have a unique phenomenon in that there are those who have been caught off guard by Jesus’ nonreturn. Ever since 1975, they’ve dutifully readjusted their timelines every three to five years, and have thus wasted their entire lives enslaved by a false system.
BB
"Jesus made clear in the Gospels that there would be they who at one time believed, but ceased to, and were totally caught off guard by His Return..."
Yep, he sure did, you'd better be careful there ben. You might just be one of those that he was referring to.
blaming cog shortcomings will not be an excuse for disbelief of the Word of God...
theres a reason why God says "he that endures till the end"...
c f ben yochanan
10:08pm You do realize that there's a difference between belief in the actual "Word of God" and your interpretation of what the "Word of God" says don't you? Disagreeing with you isn't disbelief in the Word of God!
Post a Comment