Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Sadly, outsiders such as Hank and Aron (Hey! That sounds like a good name for a baseball player!) have no standing with committed Armstrongites regardless of their knowledge and stature amongst their peers. In other words, although this is a carefully measured response and with a non-hostile tone, it is unlikely to faze any of Dave Pack's followers, or to persuade them to modify their beliefs and behavior. Having said that, I'm glad this is out there as part of the general assault. If it makes just one person think more deeply than his or her programming, it shall have been worthwhile.
Pack is a moron. However, Hanegraff lacks credibility too, and is all over the map theologically too.
From Wikipedia: On Palm Sunday, 9 April 2017, Hanegraaff, together with his wife Kathy and two of their sons, was received by chrismation into the Eastern Orthodox Church at St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Church in Charlotte, NC (a parish within the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America).[12] Consequently, as many as 150 Protestant radio stations ceased broadcasting his syndicated radio program.[13]
The armstrongites will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
The armstrongites will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. January 15, 2020 at 10:49 AM
The Painful Truth That was my experience in the church. Firm rebuke for sins and crimes against others was rare. It was usually only applied to those considered outsiders. A high percentage of my congregation aided and abetted the ministers in lording it over others. It's a Pharisaic church.
He claims that people will be tormented for all of eternity. What sort of God is that? Both the questionnaire and the host need to go solo and decide for themselves, rather than blindly believing what others tell them like some trained monkeys.
Anon January 15, 2020 at 4:20 PM wrote: Just like you.
_______________________
Hardly. I am a widely read. I do so that I may be educated on matters of importance to me.
The person who picks and chooses their own narrative without a education is practicing confirmation bias. You choose Herb, I will choose what is provable fact.
It is my understanding that the Trinity doctrine was primarily in response to the Arian doctrine that Christ was not God. God could have made the personality of the Holy Spirit more clear, but we must not deny the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't think you need the Trinity doctrine to recognize the power of the Holy Spirit and It's work in our lives. I want the Holy Spirit living in my life. If you know the Son, you know the Father. And we are reconciled to the Father if we believe the Son. We pray to the Father through the Son. I think I will just do that and thank the Lord for His Holy Spirit.
PT said: The armstrongites will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. What is considered as sound doctrine? There are Biblical doctrines that support the Christian faith which are questionable by those who question Christianity..
Hank is a heretic. The Trinity is not able to be understood because it isn't taught in the Bible. The Holy Spirit is only referred to as "he" because "he" was referring to the description of Comforter, which was in the male tense in Greek. If the Holy Spirit was a "person" then the Holy Spirit is Jesus's father, as Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
And Hank believes in "loving God" who plans torture the major of mankind forever. And yet when you bring this point up to Christians, they say God's loving but also "just". What self deception!
He claims that people will be tormented for all of eternity. What sort of God is that?
The same sort of God who will condemn people for wearing cotton-polyester shirts. Do you think you are qualified to judge God? If so, he's not much of a god. About half of the population of earth today believes that unrepentant sinners will be tormented for all of eternity. People in the ACOGs believe that Satan is currently choosing torment rather than repentance, so how hard is it to believe that many sinful human beings will make the same choice?
Hank Hanegraaff on David Pack? I think I will cover my ears for that one.
The dynamic of people still being reached by the HWA message is undeniable as evidenced by this caller. The RCG has been growing in a low percentile rate for the last few years and predominately internationally.
With a business model of extracting all held assets and a hefty take of ongoing accumulated assets, Dave Pack is able to advertise more profoundly over a broader expanse. With headliners such as the Awesome Potential of Man or Why you were born, intrigue is bound to happen.
This poor caller to Hank's program never did get his question answered. That brought back memories of when this 17 year old kid was forced by a relative who knew or thought she knew something I never knew and that was that I was apparently (I don't know) baptized Catholic as an infant. She demanded that I go meet a Catholic priest and talk to him. I brought 14 biblical WCG orientated questions to him and he never got close to answering one of them.
Unanswered life questions were/are the main driver of new converts with no WCG background coming into the RCG. Truth and error is everywhere in this world. Being in the service industry for many years and able and willing to truthfully detail how and why and what needs done to fix the problems in the most reasonable fashion garnered myself quite a following - a religion so to speak because it seemed all the other service providers had one answer to all problems and that was a $20,000 dollar bill.
So until Hank and his fellows can detail a better fix to some of life's big questions, the intrigue of the Awesome Potential of Man will continue to grab the attention of a mind looking for answers.
Sorry, Dave and Hank are both full of shit. You have a book written by humans who are incapable writing without slanting the topic in their favor or the way “ they think God is directing them.” Trinity no Trinity, who cares? Saturday or Sunday, who cares? Clean or unclean meat, who cares? When you get right down to it one argument looks as stupid as the other, but somehow, one is so more right?? Now having known Pack, and he is a real dick, anyone trying to tell you there is one acceptable way is just as bad.
Thinking back... I believe it was Hank Hanegraaff on the Bible Answer Man, a radio program, who scoffed at a man with a very good point, replying to him, "Frankly you don't know what you're talking about." The only problem was, the guy knew what he was talking about. Hank was cornered. So Pack or Hanegraff, take your pick, but for me I will pass on both.
The king James translators used he for the holy spirit, but were unsure whether it was a he or a it. If it was a person, the holy spirit would have been mentioned more often in Christ's long prayer in the book of John, shortly before His arrest.
Lexicon :: Strong's G1565 - ekeinos Strong's Red Letter ἐκεῖνος Transliteration ekeinos Pronunciation e-kā'-nos (Key)LISTEN Part of Speech pronoun Root Word (Etymology) From ἐκεῖ (G1563) Greek Inflections of ἐκεῖνος Dictionary Aids Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
Strong's Info Strong’s Definitions ἐκεῖνος ekeînos, ek-i'-nos; from G1563; that one (or (neuter) thing); often intensified by the article prefixed:—he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), × their, × them, they, this, those. See also G3778.
Did you catch that? "that one (or (neuter) thing".
The bible clearly says that the Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest. Yet we're mocked by the likes of Hanegraaff when we say the Holy Spirit is the power of God.
Luk 1:35 - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Some questions or thoughts on the web about the non-unitarian beliefs …
Mt 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” Q: If the Father and Jesus were of the same substance, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will, out of necessity, would have been that of the Father.
Mk 10:18-20 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. … And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.” Q: If Jesus was God, why did Jesus rebuke the man for addressing him as 'Good Teacher'? Jesus believed that the title 'good' was appropriate for God alone, who he considered the only standard of goodness. Interestingly, after the man was corrected, he addressed Jesus only as 'Teacher'.
Mk 13:32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Q: If Jesus was coequal with the Father, how could the Father have information that Jesus lacked? Moreover, if the son was limited by his human nature, why didn't the Holy Spirit know?
Jn 10:30-34 I and My Father are one. … Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, I said, “You are gods” ’? Q: Jesus was quoting Ps 82:6 where the bible refers to judges who teach God's divine law as gods (see also Ps 82:1-2; Ex 21:6, 22:8). This title was bestowed upon Jewish judges because they were agents of the Almighty's divine law, not because they were actually God in any way.
Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. Q: Jesus insists that the Father is 'the only true God'. The Greek word used here for 'only' is 'monos' (G3441), which is meant to exclude all others. Clearly, the Father cannot be 'the only true God' if there are two others who are God to the same degree as he is.
1 Cor 8:4-6 … and that there is no other God but one. … yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. Q: Paul insisted that only the Father is declared to be the one and only God. In Eph 1:17 Paul was still unaware of the trinity, or binitarianism, when he says, 'That the God of our lord Jesus …'
1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,… Q: This concept is restated many times throughout the NT: the Father is Jesus' God - never the other way around (see also Mt 4:7, 27:46; Rom 15:6; 2 Cor 1:3; Rev 1:6, 3:12)
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Q: If the earliest Christians believed in the trinity, or binitarianism, why didn't the NT ever refer to the Father or the Holy Spirit as the 'firstborn of all creation'? Understandably, the NT would never refer to the Father as 'firstborn' because the early Church considered the Father alone eternal.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, Q: Paul clearly distinguished between God and Jesus places considerable strain on non-unitarian beliefs.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Q: Temptation without the possibility of falling to sin is meaningless. If Jesus is God, it was impossible for him to sin, and it makes no sense to say he was tempted.
4:28 Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Q: Temptation without the possibility of falling to sin is meaningless. If Jesus is God, it was impossible for him to sin, and it makes no sense to say he was tempted.
But, Jesus is God. It’s impossible for God to sin. And His resistance to and overcoming of sin doesn’t mean His temptation was any less intense than ours because He was successful when we’re not. On the contrary I feel that’s proof of His divinity.
25 comments:
Sadly, outsiders such as Hank and Aron (Hey! That sounds like a good name for a baseball player!) have no standing with committed Armstrongites regardless of their knowledge and stature amongst their peers. In other words, although this is a carefully measured response and with a non-hostile tone, it is unlikely to faze any of Dave Pack's followers, or to persuade them to modify their beliefs and behavior. Having said that, I'm glad this is out there as part of the general assault. If it makes just one person think more deeply than his or her programming, it shall have been worthwhile.
BB
Pack is a moron. However, Hanegraff lacks credibility too, and is all over the map theologically too.
From Wikipedia: On Palm Sunday, 9 April 2017, Hanegraaff, together with his wife Kathy and two of their sons, was received by chrismation into the Eastern Orthodox Church at St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Church in Charlotte, NC (a parish within the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America).[12] Consequently, as many as 150 Protestant radio stations ceased broadcasting his syndicated radio program.[13]
The armstrongites will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
The Painful Truth said...
The armstrongites will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
January 15, 2020 at 10:49 AM
Just like you.
Let's play a game,shall we....!!!!!
Let's see what Gary lets through or not, depending on how he is trying to protect his little pets.
He has censored many of my posts when I am critical of DD or the other pets here on Banned. Gary needs to be "Banned" himself. Hypocrite.
You let them post their nonsense on your site but block objectionable comments. You've done it many times....admit it.
and there ya go, again... too funny
The Painful Truth
That was my experience in the church. Firm rebuke for sins and crimes against others was rare. It was usually only applied to those considered outsiders. A high percentage of my congregation aided and abetted the ministers in lording it over others.
It's a Pharisaic church.
He claims that people will be tormented for all of eternity. What sort of God is that? Both the questionnaire and the host need to go solo and decide for themselves, rather than blindly believing what others tell them like some trained monkeys.
Anon January 15, 2020 at 4:20 PM wrote: Just like you.
_______________________
Hardly. I am a widely read. I do so that I may be educated on matters of importance to me.
The person who picks and chooses their own narrative without a education is practicing confirmation bias. You choose Herb, I will choose what is provable fact.
It is my understanding that the Trinity doctrine was primarily in response to the Arian doctrine that Christ was not God. God could have made the personality of the Holy Spirit more clear, but we must not deny the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't think you need the Trinity doctrine to recognize the power of the Holy Spirit and It's work in our lives. I want the Holy Spirit living in my life. If you know the Son, you know the Father. And we are reconciled to the Father if we believe the Son. We pray to the Father through the Son. I think I will just do that and thank the Lord for His Holy Spirit.
PT said: The armstrongites will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
What is considered as sound doctrine? There are Biblical doctrines that support the Christian faith which are questionable by those who question Christianity..
Hank is a heretic. The Trinity is not able to be understood because it isn't taught in the Bible. The Holy Spirit is only referred to as "he" because "he" was referring to the description of Comforter, which was in the male tense in Greek. If the Holy Spirit was a "person" then the Holy Spirit is Jesus's father, as Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
And Hank believes in "loving God" who plans torture the major of mankind forever. And yet when you bring this point up to Christians, they say God's loving but also "just". What self deception!
He claims that people will be tormented for all of eternity. What sort of God is that?
The same sort of God who will condemn people for wearing cotton-polyester shirts. Do you think you are qualified to judge God? If so, he's not much of a god. About half of the population of earth today believes that unrepentant sinners will be tormented for all of eternity. People in the ACOGs believe that Satan is currently choosing torment rather than repentance, so how hard is it to believe that many sinful human beings will make the same choice?
Hank Hanegraaff on David Pack? I think I will cover my ears for that one.
The dynamic of people still being reached by the HWA message is undeniable as evidenced by this caller. The RCG has been growing in a low percentile rate for the last few years and predominately internationally.
With a business model of extracting all held assets and a hefty take of ongoing accumulated assets, Dave Pack is able to advertise more profoundly over a broader expanse. With headliners such as the Awesome Potential of Man or Why you were born, intrigue is bound to happen.
This poor caller to Hank's program never did get his question answered. That brought back memories of when this 17 year old kid was forced by a relative who knew or thought she knew something I never knew and that was that I was apparently (I don't know) baptized Catholic as an infant. She demanded that I go meet a Catholic priest and talk to him. I brought 14 biblical WCG orientated questions to him and he never got close to answering one of them.
Unanswered life questions were/are the main driver of new converts with no WCG background coming into the RCG. Truth and error is everywhere in this world. Being in the service industry for many years and able and willing to truthfully detail how and why and what needs done to fix the problems in the most reasonable fashion garnered myself quite a following - a religion so to speak because it seemed all the other service providers had one answer to all problems and that was a $20,000 dollar bill.
So until Hank and his fellows can detail a better fix to some of life's big questions, the intrigue of the Awesome Potential of Man will continue to grab the attention of a mind looking for answers.
Sorry, Dave and Hank are both full of shit. You have a book written by humans who are incapable writing without slanting the topic in their favor or the way “ they think God is directing them.” Trinity no Trinity, who cares? Saturday or Sunday, who cares? Clean or unclean meat, who cares? When you get right down to it one argument looks as stupid as the other, but somehow, one is so more right?? Now having known Pack, and he is a real dick, anyone trying to tell you there is one acceptable way is just as bad.
Thinking back... I believe it was Hank Hanegraaff on the Bible Answer Man, a radio program, who scoffed at a man with a very good point, replying to him, "Frankly you don't know what you're talking about." The only problem was, the guy knew what he was talking about. Hank was cornered. So Pack or Hanegraff, take your pick, but for me I will pass on both.
Dave is the Bernie Madoff of the splinters.
The king James translators used he for the holy spirit, but were unsure whether it was a he or a it. If it was a person, the holy spirit would have been mentioned more often in Christ's long prayer in the book of John, shortly before His arrest.
12:42,
Could you point out the word "Comforter" in John 16:13-14?
The word for "Spirit" is neuter in Greek yet John used the masculine pronoun repeatedly in this passage.
2:12 And casa, house in Spanish, is feminine, does that mean a house in Mexico is a person?
The word "he" in John 16:13~
Lexicon :: Strong's G1565 - ekeinos
Strong's
Red Letter
ἐκεῖνος
Transliteration ekeinos
Pronunciation e-kā'-nos (Key)LISTEN
Part of Speech pronoun
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἐκεῖ (G1563)
Greek Inflections of ἐκεῖνος
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
Strong's Info
Strong’s Definitions
ἐκεῖνος ekeînos, ek-i'-nos; from G1563; that one (or (neuter) thing); often intensified by the article prefixed:—he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), × their, × them, they, this, those. See also G3778.
Did you catch that? "that one (or (neuter) thing".
The bible clearly says that the Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest. Yet we're mocked by the likes of Hanegraaff when we say the Holy Spirit is the power of God.
Luk 1:35 - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
What are we proving here? That John was not German but probably Mexican?
The gospel according to Juan or San Jago?
As a Saxon I object to the translation to holy "spiritus" I go with "ghasta".
Nck
oh man, I'd forgotten just how messed up ole Hank is....
Some questions or thoughts on the web about the non-unitarian beliefs …
Mt 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
Q: If the Father and Jesus were of the same substance, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will, out of necessity, would have been that of the Father.
Mk 10:18-20 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. …
And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
Q: If Jesus was God, why did Jesus rebuke the man for addressing him as 'Good Teacher'? Jesus believed that the title 'good' was appropriate for God alone, who he considered the only standard of goodness. Interestingly, after the man was corrected, he addressed Jesus only as 'Teacher'.
Mk 13:32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Q: If Jesus was coequal with the Father, how could the Father have information that Jesus lacked? Moreover, if the son was limited by his human nature, why didn't the Holy Spirit know?
Jn 10:30-34 I and My Father are one. … Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, I said, “You are gods” ’?
Q: Jesus was quoting Ps 82:6 where the bible refers to judges who teach God's divine law as gods (see also Ps 82:1-2; Ex 21:6, 22:8). This title was bestowed upon Jewish judges because they were agents of the Almighty's divine law, not because they were actually God in any way.
Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Q: Jesus insists that the Father is 'the only true God'. The Greek word used here for 'only' is 'monos' (G3441), which is meant to exclude all others. Clearly, the Father cannot be 'the only true God' if there are two others who are God to the same degree as he is.
1 Cor 8:4-6 … and that there is no other God but one. … yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Q: Paul insisted that only the Father is declared to be the one and only God. In Eph 1:17 Paul was still unaware of the trinity, or binitarianism, when he says, 'That the God of our lord Jesus …'
1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,…
Q: This concept is restated many times throughout the NT: the Father is Jesus' God - never the other way around (see also Mt 4:7, 27:46; Rom 15:6; 2 Cor 1:3; Rev 1:6, 3:12)
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Q: If the earliest Christians believed in the trinity, or binitarianism, why didn't the NT ever refer to the Father or the Holy Spirit as the 'firstborn of all creation'? Understandably, the NT would never refer to the Father as 'firstborn' because the early Church considered the Father alone eternal.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
Q: Paul clearly distinguished between God and Jesus places considerable strain on non-unitarian beliefs.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Q: Temptation without the possibility of falling to sin is meaningless. If Jesus is God, it was impossible for him to sin, and it makes no sense to say he was tempted.
4:28
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Q: Temptation without the possibility of falling to sin is meaningless. If Jesus is God, it was impossible for him to sin, and it makes no sense to say he was tempted.
But, Jesus is God. It’s impossible for God to sin. And His resistance to and overcoming of sin doesn’t mean His temptation was any less intense than ours because He was successful when we’re not. On the contrary I feel that’s proof of His divinity.
Anon 4:12am,
Unitarians are Christians who do not believe Jesus was/is God. I'm not a Unitarian so I can't speak more about their beliefs.
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