Narcissists Ruin Everything: Part 2
"But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come; for men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, curse their parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power." -II Timothy 3:1-5
The following quotes are from Sam Vaknin's book, "Malignant Self Love". All of them come from pages 388-399 where he talks about narcissists in positions of power, and particularly, as religious leaders. As you will see, it reads like a biography on Herbert W. Armstrong and many others of his underling creations over the years. It is interesting to note that the context above in II Timothy is religious leaders. I believe this describes the inevitable fruits of hierarchically structured religions.
I sprinkled in some commentary along the way. There are so many good quotes here that I'm sure they will trigger many thoughts, memories, examples, and experiences of your own. Please share them in the comments. [Narcissists need not apply!]
"Narcissists in Positions of Authority"
"Being in a position of authority secures the uninterrupted flow of Narcissistic Supply. Fed by the awe, fear, subordination, admiration, adoration, and obedience of his underlings, parish, students, or patients, the narcissist thrives in such circumstances. The narcissist aspires to acquire authority by any means available to him."
"As far as the narcissist is concerned, there is no moral dimension to abusing others-only a pragmatic one: will he be punished for doing so? The narcissist is atavistically responsive to fear and lacks any in-depth understanding of what it is to be a human being."
"Narcissistic Leaders"
"Narcissistic Leaders"
"The narcissistic leader fosters and encourages a personality cult with all the hallmarks of an institutional religion: priesthood, rites, rituals, temples, worship, catechism, mythology. The leader is this religion's ascetic saint. He monastically denies himself earthly pleasures (or so he claims) in order to be able to dedicate himself fully to his calling. The narcissistic leader is a monstrously inverted Jesus, sacrificing his life and denying himself so that his people-or humanity at large-should benefit. By surpassing and suppressing his humanity, the narcissistic leader becomes a distorted version of Nietzsche's 'Superman'."
Herb's autobiography is crafted with fabled years on end of suffering (not of his doing, of course) and supposed sacrifice for the "work" Jesus Christ supposedly 'cursed' him with. I'm sure he hoped it would satisfy people's concerns about his glamorous lifestyle; stealing from the poor, fearful and ignorant.
Herb's autobiography is crafted with fabled years on end of suffering (not of his doing, of course) and supposed sacrifice for the "work" Jesus Christ supposedly 'cursed' him with. I'm sure he hoped it would satisfy people's concerns about his glamorous lifestyle; stealing from the poor, fearful and ignorant.
"In short: narcissistic leadership is about theatre, not about life. To enjoy the spectacle (and be subsumed by it) the leader demands the suspension of judgment, depersonalization, and de-realization."
Actors and performers in ancient times were the priests. The religious guru and propagandist was also the entertainer and bedazzler; the hypnotizer.
This resonates well with Wes White's post, "Kayfabe Gospel Preaching".
Actors and performers in ancient times were the priests. The religious guru and propagandist was also the entertainer and bedazzler; the hypnotizer.
This resonates well with Wes White's post, "Kayfabe Gospel Preaching".
"Narcissistic leadership often poses as a rebellion against the 'old ways': against the hegemonic culture, the upper classes, the established religions, the superpowers, the corrupt order."
"The narcissistic leader prefers the sparkle and glamour of well-orchestrated illusions to the tedium and method of real accomplishments. His reign is all smoke and mirrors, devoid of substances, consisting of mere appearances and mass delusions. In the aftermath of his regime-the narcissistic leader having died, been deposed, or voted out of office-it all unravels. The tireless and constant prestidigitation ceases and the entire edifice crumbles. What looked like an economic miracles turns out to have been a fraud-laced bubble."
Robert Coulter points out as much in his history of COG7D, "The Journey". For all of HWA's slander of the church he stole many of his ideas from, that church remains with close to half a million members and absent of websites, established by ex-members, devoted to exposing the abusive nature of cult life. The money train sure chugged along for a season but just as Vaknin said, once the narcissist was dead, it all came crumbling down into a pile of ineffective nothing and left behind, a trail of wasted and broken lives.
"To the narcissist, things and people are either entirely bad (evil) or entirely good. 'You are either with me or against me' is a common refrain."
This mentality is still embedded in the splinter culture.
"The 'small people', the 'rank and file', the 'loyal soldiers' of the narcissist-his flock, his nation, his employees-they pay the price. The disillusionment and disenchantment are agonizing. The process of reconstruction, of rising from the ashes, of overcoming the trauma of having been deceived, exploited and manipulated-is drawn out. It is difficult to trust again, to have faith, to love, to be led, to collaborate. Feelings of shame and guilt engulf the erstwhile followers of the narcissist. This is his sole legacy: a massive Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder."
The internet is a blessing to humanity. It exposes evil and shows how it's not normal to have a ton of negative things about you in the public domain.
But I also find it repugnant how often people will come to blogs where people share their trauma in hopes of dealing with it better and find healing, only to be castigated by the kool-aid drinking sycophants still denying their own mental illness. Many of themselves, narcissists, as is evident by their cruel comments, superior attitude and tiring argumentative spirit.
The ultimate legacy of a religious narcissist like Herb and Dave are conversions to atheism by acts of cruelty and abuse. These conversions give the narcissist messiah his ultimate victory; vanquishing God and taking His place upon the throne of the universe. This isn't a knock on atheism, only an observance of what narcissists do to people of faith. It is one thing for an atheist to influence someone away from their faith by reason. I have no problem with that. Narcissists go as far as to use some tactics none short of Satanic ritual abuse.
"The Cult of the Narcissist"
"The narcissist is the guru at the center of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his flock. He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his followers. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs."
"The-often involuntary-members of the narcissist's mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction. He imposes on them a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, 'enemies', mythical narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted."
This 'twilight zone' HWA masterfully concocted on radio and television was his main hook, rooted simply in fear and nothing else. It truly amazes me that after all these decades, there are still people arguing prophecy with any kind of Herbesque dire consequence. Give it a rest. Just the fact that prophecy is a religious narcissists' favorite tool in his box of tricks should be enough for anyone to steer clear of anyone coming at you dogmatically about future events and dates. Fixations on the future is what enables the narcissist to engulf others in his own twisted reality of urgency existing paradoxically in a cocoon of suspended animation.
"The narcissist is a micro-manager. He exerts control over the minutest details and behaviours. He punishes severely and abuses withholders of information and those who fail to conform to his wishes and goals."
"The narcissist does not respect the boundaries and privacy of his reluctant adherents. He ignores their wishes and treats them as objects or instruments of gratification."
"He strongly disapproves of others' personal autonomy and independence. Even innocuous activities, such as meeting a friend or visiting one's family require his permission."
The last few descriptions are strongly evident in PCG and RCG. I know personally, the demand Dave Pack puts on his slaves and the toll it takes. He is the vilest narcissist I have ever known in my life.
"His thinking is dogmatic, rigid and doctrinaire. He does not countenance free thought, pluralism, or free speech and doesn't brook criticism and disagreement."
Unfortunately, the sycophant managers left holding the bag after Herb didn't take everyone to Petra, still uphold the same dogmatic, rigid, free-thought crushing system. And, of course, they have to...their employment and retirement is at stake.
"He forces the participants in his cult to be hostile to critics, the authorities, institutions, his personal enemies, or the media-if they try to uncover his actions and reveal the truth. He closely monitors and censors information from the outside, exposing his captive audience only to selective data and analyses."
This is another policy that has carried over in the splinters. I have heard several sermons at feasts where ministers got up and brazenly told brethren to stay off the internet. They attempt to ridicule and bully the listeners with threats that they will become flat-earthers and moon-landing deniers if they don't obey. (Some of them do...but so what?) These portfolio managers don't care about brethren getting sucked into dumb ideas. Their only concern is that people start finding out the truth about their 'twilight zone'.
"The narcissist's cult is 'missionary' and 'imperialistic'. He is always on the lookout for new recruits."
"As the leader of his congregation, the narcissist feels entitled to special amenities and benefits not accorded the 'rank and file'. He expects to be waited on hand and foot, to make free use of everyone's money and dispose of their assets liberally, and to be cynically exempt from the rules that he himself established (if such violation is pleasurable or gainful)."
"In extreme cases, the narcissist feels above the law-any kind of law. This grandiose and haughty conviction leads to criminal acts, incestuous or polygamous relationships, and recurrent friction with the authorities. Hence the narcissist's panicky and sometimes violent reaction to 'dropouts' from his cult. There's a lot going on that the narcissist wants kept under wraps."
This explains why out of the hundreds of people that came and went in RCG, hardly a peep from any of them. You can be sure Pack is 'lawyered' up with signatures on the dotted line from every one of them. They don't dare speak out unless they want to end up like Don Tiger.
"The narcissist sees enemies and conspiracies everywhere. He often casts himself as the heroic victim (martyr) of dark and stupendous forces. In every deviation from his tenets, he espies malevolent and ominous subversion. He, therefore, is bent on disempowering his devotees. By any and all means."
The easiest way for a narcissist to keep his devotees disempowered is to lock them into the prison of hierarchy, tithing laws and prophecy obsession.
"The Professions of a Narcissist"
"The narcissist naturally gravitates towards those professions which guarantee the abundant and uninterrupted provision of Narcissistic Supply. He seeks to interact with people from a position of authority, advantage, or superiority. He thus elicits their automatic admiration, adulation, and affirmation-or, failing that, their fear and obedience. Several vocations meet these requirements: teaching, the priesthood, show business, corporate management, the medical professions, politics, and sports. It is safe to predict that narcissists would be over-represented in these occupations. This is a worrisome state of affairs. Narcissists are liars. They misrepresent their credentials, knowledge, talents, skills, and achievements."
Notice the very similar relationship between teacher, priest, actor, sports icon and politician. Narcissists will do whatever it takes to climb the corporate, educational, political or ecclesiastical ladder. Fortunately, some of them aren't very good at masking their narcissism and those around them impede them from reaching positions of power and control. This is what happened to Herb in COG7D. But Herb did do what many other narcissists have done when they fail to scale existing hierarchies...they create their own. Already in his 50's, he started a school for 18-year-olds to build his fiefdom. The perfect toadies. He already commanded respect with over 30 years their senior. He was their teacher, rabbi, and spiritual papa. The man was an idol unto himself who hand-picked his loyal underling priests that would do whatever he said. Period.
"Can Men of God Be Narcissists?"
"God is everything the narcissist ever wants to be: omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, admired, much discussed, and awe-inspiring. God is the narcissist's wet dream, his ultimate grandiose fantasy. But God comes handy in other ways as well."
I wonder if the 'wet dream' and 'handy' was intentional. Maybe this is what Herb's 'flog log' was really about.
"The narcissist alternately idealizes and devalues figures of authority. In the idealization phase, he strives to emulate them, he admires them (often ludicrously) and defends them. They cannot go wrong, or be wrong. The narcissist regards them as bigger than life, infallible, perfect, whole, and brilliant. But as the narcissist's unrealistic and inflated expectations are inevitably frustrated, he begins to devalue his former idols."
This is an apt description of Dave Pack and Bob Thiel.
"Now they are 'human' (to the narcissist, a derogatory term). They are small, fragile, error-prone, pusillanimous, mean, dumb, and mediocre. The narcissist goes through the same cycle in his relationship with God., the quintessential authority figure."
"But often, even when disillusionment and iconoclastic despair set in, the narcissist continues to pretend to love God and follow Him. The narcissist maintains this deception because of his continued proximity to God confers on him authority. Priests, leaders of the congregation, preachers, evangelists, cultists, politicians, intellectuals-all derive authority from their allegedly privileged relationship with God."
This reminds me of Simon Magus. Many claim to be following in the footsteps of Peter when their idol is Simon. This is largely why I am confident HWA was never converted in any way whatsoever at any time in his life. I think it is important to frame his 10 years of incest with what else was going on in his life. The first 5-7 years of incest were also his ordination years in COG7D. What kind of human being neglects his family, studying religion for a few years, only to conclude that God was calling him for a special purpose, forces ordination among peers who didn't like him, and promptly begins raping his own child?
"Religious authority allows the narcissist to indulge his sadistic urges and to exercise his misogynism freely and openly. Such a narcissist is likely to taunt and torment his followers, hector and chastise them, humiliate and berate them, abuse them spiritually, or even sexually. The narcissist whose source of authority is religion is looking for obedient and unquestioning slaves upon whom to exercise his capricious and wicked mastery. The narcissist transforms even the most innocuous and pure religious sentiments into a cultish ritual and a virulent hierarchy. He preys on the gullible. His flock becomes his hostages."
"Religious authority also secures the narcissist's Narcissistic Supply. His coreligionists, members of his congregation, his parish, his constituency, his audience are transformed into loyal and stable Sources of Narcissistic Supply. They obey his commands, heed his admonitions, follow his creed, admire his personality, applaud his personal traits, satisfy his needs (sometimes even his carnal desires), revere and idolize him."
I never saw or heard Herb until I was several years in the churches of God. Literature produced in the 90's drew me in. I don't know how many people would tell me how HWA would rant and rave like a lunatic and was very short-tempered and tell me this with pride as though it was an admirable trait.
"Moreover, being a part of an immanent 'bigger thing' is very gratifying narcissistically. Being a particle of God, being immersed in His grandeur, experiencing His power and blessings first hand, communing with Him are all Sources of unending Narcissistic Supply. The narcissist becomes God by observing His commandments, following His instructions, loving Him, obeying Him, succumbing to Him, merging with Him, communicating and communing with Him, or even by defying Him (the greater the narcissist's adversary-the more grandiosely important the narcissist feels).
I wouldn't be surprised if Dave Pack wasn't one step away from taking on God, himself.
Like everything else in the narcissist's life, he mutates God into a kind of inverted narcissist. God becomes his dominant Source of Supply. He forms a personal relationship with this overwhelming and overpowering entity in order to overwhelm and overpower others. He becomes God vicariously, by the proxy of his relationship with Him. He idealizes God, then devalues Him, then abuses Him. This is the classic narcissistic pattern and even God Himself cannot escape it."
Jesus was well aware of narcissists and psychopaths. He knew there were conniving liars who would play-act their ways into positions of power and control over others. He argued with them regularly, calling them vipers and white-washed tombs. Part 3 will be about His simple formula for protecting the church from narcissistic ghouls.
Robert Coulter points out as much in his history of COG7D, "The Journey". For all of HWA's slander of the church he stole many of his ideas from, that church remains with close to half a million members and absent of websites, established by ex-members, devoted to exposing the abusive nature of cult life. The money train sure chugged along for a season but just as Vaknin said, once the narcissist was dead, it all came crumbling down into a pile of ineffective nothing and left behind, a trail of wasted and broken lives.
"To the narcissist, things and people are either entirely bad (evil) or entirely good. 'You are either with me or against me' is a common refrain."
This mentality is still embedded in the splinter culture.
"The 'small people', the 'rank and file', the 'loyal soldiers' of the narcissist-his flock, his nation, his employees-they pay the price. The disillusionment and disenchantment are agonizing. The process of reconstruction, of rising from the ashes, of overcoming the trauma of having been deceived, exploited and manipulated-is drawn out. It is difficult to trust again, to have faith, to love, to be led, to collaborate. Feelings of shame and guilt engulf the erstwhile followers of the narcissist. This is his sole legacy: a massive Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder."
The internet is a blessing to humanity. It exposes evil and shows how it's not normal to have a ton of negative things about you in the public domain.
But I also find it repugnant how often people will come to blogs where people share their trauma in hopes of dealing with it better and find healing, only to be castigated by the kool-aid drinking sycophants still denying their own mental illness. Many of themselves, narcissists, as is evident by their cruel comments, superior attitude and tiring argumentative spirit.
The ultimate legacy of a religious narcissist like Herb and Dave are conversions to atheism by acts of cruelty and abuse. These conversions give the narcissist messiah his ultimate victory; vanquishing God and taking His place upon the throne of the universe. This isn't a knock on atheism, only an observance of what narcissists do to people of faith. It is one thing for an atheist to influence someone away from their faith by reason. I have no problem with that. Narcissists go as far as to use some tactics none short of Satanic ritual abuse.
"The Cult of the Narcissist"
"The narcissist is the guru at the center of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his flock. He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his followers. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs."
"The-often involuntary-members of the narcissist's mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction. He imposes on them a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, 'enemies', mythical narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted."
This 'twilight zone' HWA masterfully concocted on radio and television was his main hook, rooted simply in fear and nothing else. It truly amazes me that after all these decades, there are still people arguing prophecy with any kind of Herbesque dire consequence. Give it a rest. Just the fact that prophecy is a religious narcissists' favorite tool in his box of tricks should be enough for anyone to steer clear of anyone coming at you dogmatically about future events and dates. Fixations on the future is what enables the narcissist to engulf others in his own twisted reality of urgency existing paradoxically in a cocoon of suspended animation.
"The narcissist is a micro-manager. He exerts control over the minutest details and behaviours. He punishes severely and abuses withholders of information and those who fail to conform to his wishes and goals."
"The narcissist does not respect the boundaries and privacy of his reluctant adherents. He ignores their wishes and treats them as objects or instruments of gratification."
"He strongly disapproves of others' personal autonomy and independence. Even innocuous activities, such as meeting a friend or visiting one's family require his permission."
The last few descriptions are strongly evident in PCG and RCG. I know personally, the demand Dave Pack puts on his slaves and the toll it takes. He is the vilest narcissist I have ever known in my life.
"His thinking is dogmatic, rigid and doctrinaire. He does not countenance free thought, pluralism, or free speech and doesn't brook criticism and disagreement."
Unfortunately, the sycophant managers left holding the bag after Herb didn't take everyone to Petra, still uphold the same dogmatic, rigid, free-thought crushing system. And, of course, they have to...their employment and retirement is at stake.
"He forces the participants in his cult to be hostile to critics, the authorities, institutions, his personal enemies, or the media-if they try to uncover his actions and reveal the truth. He closely monitors and censors information from the outside, exposing his captive audience only to selective data and analyses."
This is another policy that has carried over in the splinters. I have heard several sermons at feasts where ministers got up and brazenly told brethren to stay off the internet. They attempt to ridicule and bully the listeners with threats that they will become flat-earthers and moon-landing deniers if they don't obey. (Some of them do...but so what?) These portfolio managers don't care about brethren getting sucked into dumb ideas. Their only concern is that people start finding out the truth about their 'twilight zone'.
"The narcissist's cult is 'missionary' and 'imperialistic'. He is always on the lookout for new recruits."
"As the leader of his congregation, the narcissist feels entitled to special amenities and benefits not accorded the 'rank and file'. He expects to be waited on hand and foot, to make free use of everyone's money and dispose of their assets liberally, and to be cynically exempt from the rules that he himself established (if such violation is pleasurable or gainful)."
"In extreme cases, the narcissist feels above the law-any kind of law. This grandiose and haughty conviction leads to criminal acts, incestuous or polygamous relationships, and recurrent friction with the authorities. Hence the narcissist's panicky and sometimes violent reaction to 'dropouts' from his cult. There's a lot going on that the narcissist wants kept under wraps."
This explains why out of the hundreds of people that came and went in RCG, hardly a peep from any of them. You can be sure Pack is 'lawyered' up with signatures on the dotted line from every one of them. They don't dare speak out unless they want to end up like Don Tiger.
"The narcissist sees enemies and conspiracies everywhere. He often casts himself as the heroic victim (martyr) of dark and stupendous forces. In every deviation from his tenets, he espies malevolent and ominous subversion. He, therefore, is bent on disempowering his devotees. By any and all means."
The easiest way for a narcissist to keep his devotees disempowered is to lock them into the prison of hierarchy, tithing laws and prophecy obsession.
"The Professions of a Narcissist"
"The narcissist naturally gravitates towards those professions which guarantee the abundant and uninterrupted provision of Narcissistic Supply. He seeks to interact with people from a position of authority, advantage, or superiority. He thus elicits their automatic admiration, adulation, and affirmation-or, failing that, their fear and obedience. Several vocations meet these requirements: teaching, the priesthood, show business, corporate management, the medical professions, politics, and sports. It is safe to predict that narcissists would be over-represented in these occupations. This is a worrisome state of affairs. Narcissists are liars. They misrepresent their credentials, knowledge, talents, skills, and achievements."
Notice the very similar relationship between teacher, priest, actor, sports icon and politician. Narcissists will do whatever it takes to climb the corporate, educational, political or ecclesiastical ladder. Fortunately, some of them aren't very good at masking their narcissism and those around them impede them from reaching positions of power and control. This is what happened to Herb in COG7D. But Herb did do what many other narcissists have done when they fail to scale existing hierarchies...they create their own. Already in his 50's, he started a school for 18-year-olds to build his fiefdom. The perfect toadies. He already commanded respect with over 30 years their senior. He was their teacher, rabbi, and spiritual papa. The man was an idol unto himself who hand-picked his loyal underling priests that would do whatever he said. Period.
"Can Men of God Be Narcissists?"
"God is everything the narcissist ever wants to be: omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, admired, much discussed, and awe-inspiring. God is the narcissist's wet dream, his ultimate grandiose fantasy. But God comes handy in other ways as well."
I wonder if the 'wet dream' and 'handy' was intentional. Maybe this is what Herb's 'flog log' was really about.
"The narcissist alternately idealizes and devalues figures of authority. In the idealization phase, he strives to emulate them, he admires them (often ludicrously) and defends them. They cannot go wrong, or be wrong. The narcissist regards them as bigger than life, infallible, perfect, whole, and brilliant. But as the narcissist's unrealistic and inflated expectations are inevitably frustrated, he begins to devalue his former idols."
This is an apt description of Dave Pack and Bob Thiel.
"Now they are 'human' (to the narcissist, a derogatory term). They are small, fragile, error-prone, pusillanimous, mean, dumb, and mediocre. The narcissist goes through the same cycle in his relationship with God., the quintessential authority figure."
"But often, even when disillusionment and iconoclastic despair set in, the narcissist continues to pretend to love God and follow Him. The narcissist maintains this deception because of his continued proximity to God confers on him authority. Priests, leaders of the congregation, preachers, evangelists, cultists, politicians, intellectuals-all derive authority from their allegedly privileged relationship with God."
This reminds me of Simon Magus. Many claim to be following in the footsteps of Peter when their idol is Simon. This is largely why I am confident HWA was never converted in any way whatsoever at any time in his life. I think it is important to frame his 10 years of incest with what else was going on in his life. The first 5-7 years of incest were also his ordination years in COG7D. What kind of human being neglects his family, studying religion for a few years, only to conclude that God was calling him for a special purpose, forces ordination among peers who didn't like him, and promptly begins raping his own child?
"Religious authority allows the narcissist to indulge his sadistic urges and to exercise his misogynism freely and openly. Such a narcissist is likely to taunt and torment his followers, hector and chastise them, humiliate and berate them, abuse them spiritually, or even sexually. The narcissist whose source of authority is religion is looking for obedient and unquestioning slaves upon whom to exercise his capricious and wicked mastery. The narcissist transforms even the most innocuous and pure religious sentiments into a cultish ritual and a virulent hierarchy. He preys on the gullible. His flock becomes his hostages."
"Religious authority also secures the narcissist's Narcissistic Supply. His coreligionists, members of his congregation, his parish, his constituency, his audience are transformed into loyal and stable Sources of Narcissistic Supply. They obey his commands, heed his admonitions, follow his creed, admire his personality, applaud his personal traits, satisfy his needs (sometimes even his carnal desires), revere and idolize him."
I never saw or heard Herb until I was several years in the churches of God. Literature produced in the 90's drew me in. I don't know how many people would tell me how HWA would rant and rave like a lunatic and was very short-tempered and tell me this with pride as though it was an admirable trait.
"Moreover, being a part of an immanent 'bigger thing' is very gratifying narcissistically. Being a particle of God, being immersed in His grandeur, experiencing His power and blessings first hand, communing with Him are all Sources of unending Narcissistic Supply. The narcissist becomes God by observing His commandments, following His instructions, loving Him, obeying Him, succumbing to Him, merging with Him, communicating and communing with Him, or even by defying Him (the greater the narcissist's adversary-the more grandiosely important the narcissist feels).
I wouldn't be surprised if Dave Pack wasn't one step away from taking on God, himself.
Like everything else in the narcissist's life, he mutates God into a kind of inverted narcissist. God becomes his dominant Source of Supply. He forms a personal relationship with this overwhelming and overpowering entity in order to overwhelm and overpower others. He becomes God vicariously, by the proxy of his relationship with Him. He idealizes God, then devalues Him, then abuses Him. This is the classic narcissistic pattern and even God Himself cannot escape it."
Jesus was well aware of narcissists and psychopaths. He knew there were conniving liars who would play-act their ways into positions of power and control over others. He argued with them regularly, calling them vipers and white-washed tombs. Part 3 will be about His simple formula for protecting the church from narcissistic ghouls.
The Day That Never Comes
Born to push you around
Better just stay down
You pull away
He hits the flesh
You hit the ground
Mouths so full of lies
Tend to block your eyes
Just keep them closed
Keep praying
Just keep waiting
Waiting for the one
The day that never comes
When you stand up and feel the warmth
But the sunshine never comes, no
No, the sunshine never comes
Push you 'cross that line
Just stay down this time
Hide in yourself
Crawl in yourself
You'll have your time
God, I'll make them pay
Take it back one day
I'll end this day
I'll splatter color on this gray
Waiting for the one
The day that never comes
When you stand up and feel the warmth
But the sunshine never comes
Love is a four-letter word
And never spoken here
Love is a four-letter word
Here in this prison
I suffer this no longer
I'll put an end to this, I swear
This, I swear
The sun will shine
This, I swear
This, I swear
This, I swear
--Metallica, 2008
by Stoned Stephen Society
29 comments:
The ultimate threat from a narcissist is that they have power over whether you live or die.
HWA/GTA had an even worse threat than just temporal physical death, they claimed an authority over ones ETERNAL DEATH!
By saying that if you were not in "Gods True Church" , which meant totally submitted to them in all ways, especially financially, that not only would you suffer tragically from the terrors of the tribulation, but that you would be snuffed out FOREVER in gehenna fire.
A spiritual gun placed to your head, along with the whole "disfellowshipped and marked" nonsense which separates you from your family, friends, and perhaps even your employment. It was the sprit of MURDER, eternal murder!
It was a totalitarian hostage situation, mafioso styled, culture. It included those who were the capos and dons, who enforced the edicts in exchange for perks and pleasures of varying degrees from the narcissist at the top.
True enlightenment and conversion would have produced a system that empowered and mentored people to be free of the original teacher, and to become teachers and planters themselves. To then encourage people to break free and carry on , and so forth.
In the WCG, because it was larger than the cults like Flurry and Pack, one could slip through the cracks more and be less noticed. As long as you just showed up and shut your mouth, you were not viewed as any kind of threat to the illusions. You were just part of the rabble masses of the WCG.
I imagine that in the smaller cults of the current time, like Pack and Flurry or Weinland, that you are much more closely examined, and monitored than back at WCG. Im sure the snitch culture and rat culture is even more intense than ever. Monitoring and compliance from above, much higher.
In the old WCG, during its growth hey day in the late 50s to about 1970, ministers were really busy processing new recruits and in growth of the cult, and although a "too heavy" monitoring existed heavily, it had to be much less than in the current cults, as those ministers just dont have much more else to do but "sheriffing" the faithful on behalf of their narcissist for new levels of sacrifice and self flagellation.
Narcissist are in every single human organization of structure. Political, business, social. Sex is often involved, as well as money, as this is perhaps one of ultimate forms of worship, acceptance and power.
One can only imagine how far out and freaky the goings on at Vatican City must be. It must be AC/WCG on steroids!
Jesus came to bring down hierarchy and the resultant Narcissists. Christ hates narcissistic led religion and those who believe they act as his official agents and official franchisors for him. The Eternal God hates those who merchandise the brethren, and who are hirelings.
My prayer for all of those trapped and entangled in such a matrix. Virtually everyone here has been there too at one time. May God have mercy on the innocent, and the naive, the poor sheep who were looking for love, truth and friendship, and who found themselves entrapped in a snare.
Excellent post!
For those of us who were a part of Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, one would have to be completely deluded to not recognize the fact that he was the epitome of a narcissist. He made himself the revelator of truth, the mediator between God and man and the head of God's government in the Church. Herbert could fudge on the Day of Atonement, dispense with his own teachings on divorce and change doctrines on a whim.
I remember Herbert Armstrong taking the Apostle Paul to task once in a sermon and huffing and puffing about how he would confront him in the Kingdom! Now, I'm certainly not one to say that Paul was a perfect apostle or that all of his theological musings were flawless. However, think of the impudence implicit in setting oneself over one of the founders of the Christian religion and an important author of Scripture!
Likewise, I remember Herbie growing emotional over how much he had "sacrificed" on behalf of the Church. There was NO self-awareness of the fact that he had played any role in alienating his children from himself. There was NO acknowledgement of the fact that his own teachings had isolated him from his brethren and was in large part responsible for his separateness and loneliness. He was completely unaware of the fact that his own behavior and teachings had created his critics and enemies.
Finally, in reading through this post and thinking about Herbert, I couldn't help myself in comparing Herb's behavior to that of the current occupant of the Oval Office. Trump loves authority. He cultivates fear. He demands subordination and loyalty. He believes that God has appointed him to the office he holds. He has remade the Republican Party into a cult of personality. His crowds and support are always inflated and made to appear as being more substantial than they actually are. He takes credit for an economic recovery that he inherited from his predecessors. He admires totalitarian leaders around the globe and seeks to emulate them. He thinks that he is preeminent and above the law. He berates his critics as stupid and/or evil and never apologizes for anything. Yeah, I'm beginning to understand why many Armstrongites are such staunch supporters of Trump!
Once again, great article! Stoned Stephen Society knocked this one out of the park - hit the nail on the head, etc. Loved the Metallica quote also - very appropriate.
The biggest problem with narcissim is that narcissists are blinded to their own narcissism, and therefore never repent of it. So, it would be best to test potential ministers for narcissism, as if it were a disease (it is!), and to elliminate narcissists as candidates for the ministry. This would prevent much pain and suffering amongst the membership.
BB
I see the parody fake gang are all out. Plans to take over this blog?
You are the biggest narcist going Fake Stephen. A fake and a fraud. Frauding both the people on here and the people in Church.
Double life living won't be good for your mental health in the long run no matter how many of your cronies are on here cheering you on.
You all seem to be in a frenzy of fake names, is that because the Passover is so near?
Way too old to fool anyone.
ANONYMOUS 3/6 @ 11:17,
It is too rich for someone who posts anonymously to be chiding others for using screen names - talk about ZERO self-awareness! If you have a problem with what Stoned Stephen Society has posted, why not offer evidence which contradicts the points made in the article?
Miller Jones is suffering from a severe case of Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get the man some help! He writes that Trump:
believes that God has appointed him to the office he holds.
That's bull-crap. Mike Pence does believe that God has appointed him (and Trump) to office, but Trump does not even demonstrate a belief in God. When asked about his favorite Bible verse or book of the Bible, he has come up with nonsense at best, no answer at worst. He cynically uses the language of religion to troll his opponents and gain loyalty from his supporters.
Trump is a narcissist. He is a bully. But the only God in Donald Trump's life is Donald Trump. As President, he inherited President Obama's "Get used to the 'new normal' of slow growth and unemployment" and has created significant economic growth while dramatically increasing job creation in a way Pres. Obama said wasn't possible. How can anyone credit Obama with growth that even Obama said wasn't possible? That's just TDS in full force.
On the other hand, Trump has made some really bad decisions that his supporters seem to be willing to tolerate. Just as ridiculous as Miller Jones' Trump Derangement Syndrome is the fawning loyalty of so many Trump supporters who would tolerate almost anything from their President. Trump is no more or less of a narcissist or a cynic than most elected officials at his level. He is just as beholden to the swamp as was Hillary Clinton. The difference is that Trump is the first in a long time to deploy his narcissism and cynicism against rather than in harmony with the major media, and to use social media to break the power of the media who used to be almost in total control of popular opinion of a President.
Free your mind, Miller Jones, and the rest will follow. Right now, based on your post, you're just as big a dupe as any Trump loyalist.
Anonymous 3/7 @ 5:31,
Thanks for acknowledging that "Trump is a narcissist." Your TDS is not complete.
As for what Trump believes about God supporting him, you may want to check out this:
“I really do believe we have God on our side. I believe that. I believe that,” Trump said at King Jesus International Ministry in Kendall, Fla., adding, “or there would have been no way we could have won, right? People say how do you win, you don’t have the media, you have so many things against you, and we win. So, there has to be something.” - https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-tells-evangelicals-that-god-is-on-our-side-234723118.html
As for Trump's performance on the economic front, it is best to look at the numbers (they don't lie - no passion, no emotion)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-45827430
Anyone credit Obama?
Simply because a 2-3 year economic cycle is too short to attribute to a leader.
Every president works with a legacy like an aircraft carrier turning.
Nck
I think all our political leaders are sociopaths and most business leaders.
Unfortunately it seems to be a requirement for success.
My view:
1. Miller did an incisive analysis of HWA and DT.
2. Anonymous (5:31) correctly perceives, I think, that DT does not believe in God. His religious references are just chatter for his base. He is extraordinarily popular among White evangelicals who are apparently not as canny as Anonymous (5:31).
I always thought that DT would be a great hit with Armstrongists, that he would be their Apollo. He is the embodiment of classical Armstrongian leadership.
Strawman argument "Mr Jones". Who would even want to debate the latest emotional argument of SSS. He clearly is obsessed with HWA and cannot let him rest in peace. It's a open wound none of you want to heal. It clearly exposes your age range.
I'd highly recommend the entire gang of you all listen to Don Wards Feb 29th sermon titled 'Malaise'.
Happy Sabbath !
Poor, poor Miller Jones, taking seriously Trump's statement:
“I really do believe we have God on our side. I believe that. I believe that,” Trump said at King Jesus International Ministry in Kendall, Fla., adding, “or there would have been no way we could have won, right?"
Poor Miller Jones can't see that this is Trump playing cynically to his base. In fact, even on its face, it is Trump's authoritarianism we see in that quote, not his religious belief. If we take the quote seriously, and not just as some cynical play to his base, the quote accidentally reveals Trump's belief that God must also have been on the side of Kim Jong Un and Barack Obama, not to mention Adolf Hitler and Joe Stalin. Trump worships Power, not God. That's why Trump works to undermine the power of others, so he can have more for himself.
nck wrote:
Anyone credit Obama?
Simply because a 2-3 year economic cycle is too short to attribute to a leader.
Every president works with a legacy like an aircraft carrier turning.
What I find ridiculous are the people who are quick to credit President Obama for the stock market rise, but as soon as the market drops they say it is President Trump's fault. Partisan hacks.
The truth of the matter is that virtually all politicians above the level of Congressman are narcissists, regardless of political party. You cant get there to that level unless you are absolutely ruthless and cutthroat.
At the House of Representative level, the few non narcissists do not last long, and leave within a term or two because they cant stand it anymore.
Every single major corporation, publicly traded, is ran by a narcissist too.
Religion, sadly appears that any church that claims any type of national footprint in size are virtually 100% ran by narcissist too.
CONCLUSSION -- Its Satan's world, ran by his surrogates, and Satan himself is the ultimate Narcissist!
8:29
Ah. I understand.
The stockmarket is not the economy.
Especially not the market under Trump.
Totally unsung from reality. (also due to central bank policy)
Nck
NCK and NEO,
Astute observations!
Anonymous 3/7 @ 8:18,
One cannot move forward without addressing/facing/dealing with the past. Burying one's head in the sand and pretending that certain things didn't happen is neither positive nor a step toward healing!
Anonymous 3/7 @ 8:18 II,
Yes, I see a cynical appeal to his base, but this is clearly what he professes to believe. I don't know what he actually believes, and neither do you. All we have to go on is what he reveals to us through his public statements (and, yes, he does have a tendency to lie every time he opens his mouth).
TLA and Liam,
While I would say that there is a great deal of arrogance within and without government, the only thing that painting everyone with the same brush accomplishes is to excuse the behavior. The fact is that narcissism is a personality DISORDER, and it causes real damage to people and institutions. Most of us have a fairly high opinion of ourselves, but most of retain the ability to have compassion for and empathize with our fellows.
This perfectly describes life at Dave Pack's HQ. Having experienced it for 10 years, I'm so thankful to be free from it. Truly a twilight zone of Pack's warped mind.
"The narcissist is a micro-manager. He exerts control over the minutest details and behaviours. He punishes severely and abuses withholders of information and those who fail to conform to his wishes and goals."
"The narcissist does not respect the boundaries and privacy of his reluctant adherents. He ignores their wishes and treats them as objects or instruments of gratification."
"He strongly disapproves of others' personal autonomy and independence. Even innocuous activities, such as meeting a friend or visiting one's family require his permission."
"Trump Derangement Syndrome" is very much an invented terminology, used to shame those who disagree with the president's idealogy and policies. I knew we would be seeing more invented terminologies the minute POTUS coined the phrase "fake news". Oh, there is indeed fake news. It is created for the purpose of satire, and is found in publications such as the Onion. The Donald calls anything that counters him in the Washington Post, or New York Times fake news. Oh, or the very legitimate polls conducted by Fox News. A dangerous demagogue has bewitched a large percentage of American voters. Hopefully, correction is on the way.
BB
8:18, do you even know what an activist is?
An activist is one who perceives great harm or evil, either by observation, by personal experience, or by vicarious experience, and then commits to changing that evil so that it does not continue to harm or negatively imact others. Often, this becomes a life long commitment, or one that spans generations, as in the case of holocaust survivors, their families and community. Anyone who has suffered abuse or has been victimized, or has watched others be victimized is likely to take an activist stance to one degree or another.
This prevents those whose "side" caused the harm or injustice from having the luxury of denying, ignoring, or getting away with the harm their side has caused. As an example, it really pisses off current Armstrongites any time that former members of old school WCG or the splinters take up an activist stance, lay the blame rightly at the feet of HWA and his lackeys, and attempt to expose him or hold him accountable.
The massive damage that Herbie caused in the lives of so many who trusted him as if he were literally an apostle must continue to be chronicled in such a manner as to prevent others from being victimized in the future. Former victims of Sun Myung Moon, L. Ron Hubbard, and others have been equally effective getting the word out, and diminishing the growth of the organizations which caused damage to them. The ACOGs are on a similar death spiral to Mooneyism and Scientology largely because the truth of who and what they are is continually being exposed and reexposed.
Isn't that wonderful?
BB
BB - making the choice the lesser of 2 evils is how we got into this mess.
The primary system is broken beyond repair.
The system is currently setup so who can best take advantage of the media - especially social media - wins.
The media owners love Trump - he is money in the bank for them.
If HWA had been born 60 years later, he could have been running for president - for either side - and probably won.
AnonymousMarch 7, 2020 at 8:18 AM
Strawman argument "Mr Jones". Who would even want to debate the latest emotional argument of SSS. He clearly is obsessed with HWA and cannot let him rest in peace. It's a open wound none of you want to heal. It clearly exposes your age range.
I'd highly recommend the entire gang of you all listen to Don Wards Feb 29th sermon titled 'Malaise'.
Happy Sabbath !
Ok when churches call a false prophet the apostle of God they are the ones with a problem. And as far Don Ward goes he will lie to your. It happen to me.
I guess we need some of "Comrade Bernie's" socialism. Hey Byker Bob, how did that work out for Venenzuela & Nicaragua?
Who ever told you that I was a Bernie Sanders fan? When have I ever posted a pro-Bernie opinion? Normally, I would vote Republican, but I refused to reprogram my conservative views to conform to Donald Trump, so sat out the 2016 elections. It appears that Biden is the most conservative Democrat still standing, but I think he's rapidly losing brain cells, so we're most likely going to get screwed for another four years by the hijacker. I really wish Jebbie or Romney had won the 2015 primaries.
So much for your intellect and ability to recall important details about each of the regulars, 4:24! Unless you were just trying to make a straw man, which is what binary thinkers like you are usually limited to. Too bad the archives of the old PT Forum aren't available, or you could go back to election seasons past and see what I had to say about Kerry and Obama back then. Or my defenses of W.
BB
Well said, BB @ 11:56. And I don't see how one could remove the emotional appeal from activism. It is truly heartfelt when it is fact/reason/truth driven. Those who defend the guilty can attempt to downplay sound argument with terms like "emotional arguments" and "obsessions" but it only reveals their own emotional and mental train wreck. It does not require personal experience, nor does it show my age as any twit would have caught in my post that I never heard or saw HWA recordings till I was several years in the churches of God in the 90's. My response to HWA as a man is based on the hours of research made available by the blessing of the internet. This type of activism is additional documentation made available to those with the guts to challenge their own beliefs and seek the history of an organization they committed to without the luxury of information available at the time of commitment. This activism is about forcing reformation or extinction of the COGs. I'm OK with either out-come.
BB said
"Normally, I would vote Republican, but I refused to reprogram my conservative views to conform to Donald Trump, so sat out the 2016 elections"
I'm embarrassed to admit I was so disgusted with Trump that I held my nose and pulled the lever for Hillary... I really wanted Kasich.
Byker Bob,
Reality doesn't matter to folks like that. They make assumptions based on the stereotypes that they cherish and resort to when confronted with information that doesn't fit their prejudices. And it's entirely possible that this anonymous poster is a regular or would make the same statement if they were familiar with all of your past posts. Remember, we live in an age where folks like Mitt Romney, George Will, Bill Kristol and Steve Schmidt are considered traitors to the Republican party!
Although I used to be a registered Republican and have been an independent voter for many years now (and have NEVER been a Democrat), I have been labeled as an elite liberal Democrat (and much worse) by some of the folks who comment here. The reality of my life and support for balanced budgets and free/fair trade matters not one iota to such folks. Reality be damned - it's what they perceive us to be!
Finally, in my opinion, almost anyone would be better than Trump. I'll vote for Biden (even minus a few brain cells) over the baboon who currently occupies the Oval Office. Hell, I'd even vote for Socialist Bernie over him - at least he's a decent man who would respect the rule of law and Constitution! (I know what you're thinking 4:24, but you're wrong - I'm not a Socialist!)
Then let me ask you lot this, Parody Fake gang, it's 2020 where were all you stolic activists in the 80's and the 90's ??
I'm not talking to your fake personas but your real selves behind your computer screens. I'd say you are all about 30-40 years too late.
What did you stand up for when Herbert Armstrong was still alive? How many lives did you wreck yourselves in the 80's? Who were you spying and reporting back to then ? Post organizational men and women who sold your souls to the company store.
CGI did it all in the 80's. What did you do in the 80's ?
Yawn, you don't believe now and are furiously churning out the posts and blogs now. Big deal.
So what.
You've thrown the baby out with the bath water. Thats NOT what CGI did. Wanting all others to throw their crowns away too ? Never going to happen. You should have seperated HWA from God and Jesus Christ MANY years ago.
Trump’s the real fake! He just got in the presidential race saying whatever was controversial to help Hillary win kind of like how Perot helped Clinton get elected in ’92 by taking away Republican votes that would’ve gone to Bush 1. All he really wanted was to get a TV deal out of his run to spout his views, but then though Hillary won the popular vote he actually won via the Electoral College he even admitted back in ’12 was a “disaster” for the country and the rest is history...
Well, 4:30, I left before the '80s and '90s. I was part of the huge group that left around 1975 when we decided that after a debacle as huge as 1975 was, HWA did not merit a second chance. At that point, I quit associating with members and ex-members, and got on with life and career. I drastically minimized contact with family members who were still part of the group. This remained my game plan until about twenty years ago when I responded to an offfer from my telephone carrier, and signed up for dial up access to the internet. At first, I really didn't know what to surf for. I had heard that Armstrongism had totally fragmented, and started investigating, mostly to find out what had happened to some of the people I once knew. The clearing house for this sort of information appeared to be the Painful Truth website, and through that site, I actually reconnected with some of the friends for whom I was looking. I also learned that one of those friends, John Trechak, had recently passed away, and that his works were both lauded and preserved at Painful Truth.
The splinter groups were in their early stages at that time, and most of the individuals who contributed to the Painful Truth were the old school WCG ex-members, the people I referred to as "Class of '75", meaning that 1975 was the year we had graduated from Armstrongism. So, the articles which I began writing were relevant to that experience. We also had people from "Class of '95", whose experiences were very similar to our own, with the exception that they had hung around for another twenty years prior to their minds being opened to the realities of Armstrongism. These were the folks who had left rather than matriculating into one of the splinters.
Fast forwarding to the present, so many of the people now on this blog are those who have left the splinters, (with their own horror stories to tell), undercover members of the splinters who come here because they are beginning to ask the right questions, splinter members and independents who come here to defend their faith, and independents who come here to tell us that we threw away the baby with the bathwater. We have former ministers here, and now, allegedly current ones. These folks share experiences that are more contemporary than my own, and in many cases their experiences are much worse, because they have been suffered at the hands of leaders who became unhinged once they started their own groups and no longer had the supervision and oversight which they really needed. Obviously, some are still attempting to make sense out of it all, and some with agendas are trying to pick them up along the way, an exercise which is not unlike "herding cats".
Long way around, but I think you can see that most of us have done more than you think we did. Oh, and CGI was still Armstrongism, started by someone who had been disqualified based on 1 Tim. 3.
BB
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